jurov: "Masha Market - Everything for health - Tea, Vodka, Books"
thestringpuller: "I've noticed a trend with these guys. They're too dumb to even know they are clowns. Well I guess they're focused on the present and not the future. Money counts for these guys. He's nothing but a banker selling btc." and has reply >> "Dunning–Kruger effect" It's odd reading comments like that on reddit.
thestringpuller: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4tj82o/hes_back_with_stupid_tweets_now_comparing_the/d5hrewa << for those wanting to follow the brain damage.
thestringpuller: Also they are nailing the doors shut on Ether tomorrow until "clear winner": "As a Poloniex customer, you do not need to do anything. The migration will occur automatically, and your full balance of Ethereum will be transferred to the winning chain. Keep in mind that as we near the fork, we will be temporarily disabling deposits and withdrawals in preparation for the migration process. Trading will continue to operate as normal during
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504193 << there is no $ideology per se ; tmsr is principally characterized by lack of ideology. everyone else has one, however, and they're often patently insane and amazingly complex.
mircea_popescu: (take for instance the "independent" demo as described in http://trilema.com/2016/please-stop-using-dns-already-and-other-considerations/#footnote_6_65060 and more generally by Ballas. it's well over 100k loi, most of which are involved with covering up the fact that there's any ideology at work in the first place)
mircea_popescu: so the way deculturation works is, derp comes to tmsr, makes statements, which belie assumptions, which are explicitly stated BY someone in tmsr for the first time in derp's experience, and then rejected explicitly. sometimes a cause is presented, but this is not particularly "better" than none being offered. the burden is on the derp ANYWAY.
mircea_popescu: obviously, most derps are, owing to fundamental genetic insufficiency, unable to handle the plain statement of their assumptions. these, we call cattle.
mircea_popescu: a few of them, recently called the "hopefuls" but otherwise simply the incarnation of evil, are capable of handling the statement of their assumptions, but are unwilling to separate themselves from what "they want", which is usually stupid but that's not something they're prepared to face.
mircea_popescu: this is always and everywhere personal failure, sometimes a forced mistake (like the female's universal "wanting kids to survive", which is stupid but nevertheless part of her ample array of genital curses)
mircea_popescu: something that may appear as a subcase but i believe is not (not that the dispute is all that relevant) and in any case is more numerous is the jwz : the fellow that "just wants to" keep right on being lazy.
mircea_popescu: laziness is a natural want, and unavoidable. (no, wanting your children to survive is not natural, but perverse, and a major part of what makes kant's timber crooked.)
mircea_popescu: so to sum up, the process is more like washing than anything else. gunk removal.
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller and if there's two chains surviving, customer gets one poloniex gets to keep the other ?
mircea_popescu: not that it's much of a concern, there's exactly ONE customer doing eth on poloniex. but as a theoretical thing.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: "In addition, for those interested in keeping their tokens from the losing blockchain as a keepsake, we will support a one-time withdrawal of the deprecated tokens, provided that the losing chain is still functional when you attempt a withdrawal. Specific instructions on how to access your tokens on the old chain to follow."
thestringpuller: If shit really hits the fan with the hardfork, the doors are nailed shut indefinitely.
thestringpuller: Its like setting off a nuke to kill a mouse...
thestringpuller: shinohai: they added steem to poloniex. shit is bubbling. i wish there was enough liquidity to go short. this is the ultimate bubble.
asciilifeform: l0gz dead
jurov: logs were prolly decultured
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller ah i cv
mircea_popescu: o darn there's no...
mircea_popescu sees in the scrollback that the fact of there being no log has already been mentioned :D
mircea_popescu: anyway, the code || ideology parallel should be pretty obvious. yes people run other [from their wot] people's text, but this is neither obligatory nor particularly encouraged. on the contrary, with ideology as with code as with "wot maintenance best practices" and as with any other text, heterogeny is the key to victory.
mircea_popescu: unrelatedly, since i apparently fell in a barrel of reading old history, fellow describing "the cruelty" of mehmed 2 : "for some books stolen from his secretary he punished an entire village to be moved to asia ; for a stolen watermelon he took the life of a suspected janissary, and he did not back down from killing with his own hand the most adored being in the harem, who had shackled him with her exceptional beauty to the p
mircea_popescu: oint of forgetting his duties as head of state."
mircea_popescu: this item is not found in anglo historiography apparently.
asciilifeform: hey, ibrahim drowned whole fucking harem
mircea_popescu: yeah well.
mircea_popescu: but the principle of the thing. "if you love her set her free" apparently means something else in ottoman turkish.
asciilifeform: i bet he saw it as little different from modern bloke throwing out his pack of cigs 'tryin' to quit'
mircea_popescu would have simply sold the girl, but then again /me is no turk.
mircea_popescu: i bet he did.
asciilifeform: iirc they never, for some reason, surplussed the gurlz
shinohai: Logged 7-19-2016 08:39 +thestringpuller shinohai: they added steem to poloniex. shit is bubbling. i wish there was enough liquidity to go short. this is the ultimate bubble. <<<only teh American exchanges I see
mircea_popescu: you should read the poetry of the time, they were pretty drunk on a sort of adolescent male idealism perhaps best rendered as sportsfan-hiphop in today's terms.
asciilifeform: always parked them in this old-palace-jail thing
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and yet they gave the nobles caftans, ie, "here's this holy piece of clothing, worth so much more than the fabric and cut to you because i'm giving it"
mircea_popescu: it makes sense to give out the girls also, neh ?
mircea_popescu: with a little training they'll be more of a tool of state than the dubious religion
asciilifeform: culture is the set of arbitrary window dressing that dun make sense.
asciilifeform: all else is engineering.
mircea_popescu: (mehmed, like most other sultans, was a bit of an atheist)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not so. culture makes more sense, on average, than any bit of engineering.
asciilifeform: at the core is a buncha very arbitrary jumper settings.
asciilifeform: i.e., the item above.
mircea_popescu: it doesn't ~work~, but that's a very different story.
asciilifeform: why not gurlz? no reason.
asciilifeform: just the way we set them jumpers.
mircea_popescu: mno, there usually is a reason.
mircea_popescu: just, takes some study.
asciilifeform: for some reason my first thought is 'furby'
asciilifeform: there was a toy, 'furby', sorta a stuffed devil, that would randomly memorize bits of speech heard from microphone
asciilifeform: and parrot it back in a jumbled cacophony
asciilifeform: they were forbidden in usg enclaves almost immediately
asciilifeform: for the same reason as parrot.
asciilifeform: possibly the 'no surplus chix!' thing has similar root causes.
mircea_popescu: the basic, and really only, rule of hermeneutics is : that then you've understood a text when, far from its shortcomings appearing inexplicable errors, they become the actual pillars upon which the damned thing is constructed, and what originally seemed to you sensible and structural takes its true place as accidental.
mircea_popescu: there is such a thing as "why is e < 3??" "no reason" in nature, and from there in engineering. there isn't really such a thing in society, and from there in culture.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform except who did any political business among the baths and wet tits ?! not really how it worked ; presuming the girl's not accepted back in... which is perhaps where the rub is.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform here, beyazit ordered paintings made for his father by bellini (sent from venice at sultan's request) sold in the bazaar and enough with this dumb shit.
mircea_popescu: truly odd this theory, that they'd sell the paintings but not the girls.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc the occasional harem washout was married off to a pasha
asciilifeform: so they weren't wholly disposable.
gribble: Current Blocks: 421426 | Current Difficulty: 2.1349250110751337E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 423359 | Next Difficulty In: 1933 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 0 days, 12 hours, 48 minutes, and 43 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
shinohai: yay! logz
mircea_popescu: $up webbyz
deedbot: webbyz voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: orlov has an interesting pill for mircea_popescu's 'if yer boat has a hole, you gotta drydock it and now you're out $maxint' >> http://quidnon.blogspot.com/2016/07/on-women-boats-and-plumbing.html
asciilifeform: (for the impatient, last section, grep for 'blow the tanks')
webbyz: $up iKant
deedbot: webbyz may not $up iKant
mircea_popescu: $up iKant
deedbot: iKant voiced for 30 minutes.
webbyz: $up deedbot
deedbot: webbyz may not $up deedbot
mircea_popescu never likes the results, but perseveres reading orlov linked material.
webbyz: go $up yourself
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno about his nonsense. every (admittedly, large, expensive) boat i've been in had detachable pannels. you first take the shit OFF, then fuck with the pipes gauges etc in the normal manner. yes it takes 3x as long as if you were doing house plumbing, but that's about it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's boats were pleasure boats for rich folk.
asciilifeform: not houses for orlov.
mircea_popescu: ~townhouse on water, so to speak.
asciilifeform: 'quidnon' is orlov's crackpot design, it will, he wrote, be published as plans on www, and sold as diy kit.
asciilifeform: has a number of unusual design features for self-sufficiency (flotation arch for uncapsizing, sub-style water tanks for emergency buoyancy, as described in linked piece, etc)
mircea_popescu: tbh i think it may rather be a matter of agwe
asciilifeform: what's agwe ?
mircea_popescu: engineering took a sharp turn to sanity sometime in the 80s wrt to this sort of "vacuum spherical chicken" issue.
mircea_popescu: to quote : "Boat plumbing systems are virtually never designed with ease of maintenance in mind; mostly they are an afterthought, not so much engineered as crammed together in any space thats available. A very common problem is that working on them requires the use of toolsscrewdrivers, channel locks, sockets with ratchetsbut there is no room to wield these tools in the normal manner, and just about every operation r
mircea_popescu: equires one to become a contortionist. Another common problem is lack of space for both the arm (with which to work on things) and the head (with which to look at what you are doing), meaning that much of the work has to do be done by Braille.
mircea_popescu: this sounds very much like an item made pre 1980 than post 1990.
asciilifeform: also size.
asciilifeform: he sails strictly sailboats, and strictly ones which fit in a standard american slip
asciilifeform: and lives in them, with wife and son even, and there is not much extra space.
asciilifeform: from past orlov&boat threads, iirc mircea_popescu sailed titanic diesels.
asciilifeform: might account for some of the 'wtf' factor.
mircea_popescu: i also sailed proper sailboats ; which have no plumbing. under discussion here, both from the introduction of the article you quote, and from his "live in boat" general outlook, are pointedly NOT sailboats.
asciilifeform: an orlovian boat is a machine strictly smaller than a refrigerator truck.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yes but did you attempt to ~live~ in them.
mircea_popescu: no, because they aren't made for this purpose.
mircea_popescu: have you attempted to live in computer case ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: all of mr o's materials presume 'live in boat' means sailboat.
mircea_popescu: i also never attempted to live in my shoes, or judge shoes by how "livable in" they are.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, that's nonsense, no saving it. fuck, sailboat with plumbing ? wut ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they are not made for this purpose, but he is attempting to design one which is..
asciilifeform: and whole point of engineering is to convert 'that's nonsense' into 'grudgingly sense', powered by certain amount of money and elbow grease. consider space capsule.
asciilifeform: man lives in vacuum? 'nonsense!'
asciilifeform: but if you must - you can.
mircea_popescu: see, a sailboat, ie, the thing you run sail and rigging championships etc with ? that thing has no generator, because it's heavy. most have no engine either, except where legally required on occasion, and the presence of engine is disdained universally. etc.
asciilifeform: imho orlov is making a mistake though - he ought to be designing a submarine.
mircea_popescu: nuclear one at that.
asciilifeform: ... which cannot capsize, and is difficult to detect for pirate
asciilifeform: (of either amateur or usgistic variety)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: your sailboats, again, are a 'race horse' luxurywank item, not a practical instrument
mircea_popescu: best i can discern from the unexpected in this latest convo, he's trying to do something that makes no sense for the market, a sort of ostrich-camel of epic proportions.
mircea_popescu: but w/e, maybe he's special.
asciilifeform: i am interested in his ostrichcamel.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no "practical instrument" that is the unworkable cross between a hammer and a screwdriver.
mircea_popescu: you may be interested ; but the market for "sailboat" is composed of people who already own say a race horse, or sponsor a speed racing team etc ; they're ready to spend by the million.
asciilifeform: not this one.
asciilifeform: this is rather like that ibm fella who wrote 'there is a market for five computers'
mircea_popescu: meanwhile the market for "boathouse" is composed of people who already own townhouse in large town ; also prepared to spend by the million.
asciilifeform: in, when was it, '52 ?
phf: sailboat != boat with sail
mircea_popescu: phf i have nfi what any of the terms mean as used, for the record. we're in plebeconfusionland.
asciilifeform: it is quite conceivable that there is item, which is recognizably a computer, but not one of the items for which ibm correctly assessed a market sized 5 units in '52.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's 'sailboat' is a racing yacht. orlov's is a (mostly) wind-powered antisocial survival capsule.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the ibm example isn't so good. the sort of phenomena that were conquered to produce the 1k chickens 1950-1990 are very fucking different from the sort of phenomena the boat has to encounter,
asciilifeform: which is why i follow the subj.
mircea_popescu: and which has not produced any sort of improvement EVER!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: plastics happened.
mircea_popescu: for the record, the hull design style of the vikings STILL IS! to this day! the best, fastest and so on.
mircea_popescu: plastics ain't that big a deal.
asciilifeform: even the yacht folks are using fiberglass/epoxy.
asciilifeform: so yes, deal.
asciilifeform: a boat is no longer definitionally 10,001 planks.
mircea_popescu: the improvement plastics and composites (current generation, EXPENSIVE!) offer over selected historical wood is marginal, if at all present.
mircea_popescu: nothing like the advantage doped silicone offers over old galene/lead whatevers.
asciilifeform: again the 'expensive' thing is rather like observing that f-16 parts are costly. yes, because golden toilet buyers. compare instead with mig.
mircea_popescu: people use plastic because cheaper plastic is cheaper than cheap wood, and there better.
asciilifeform: or better yet, sopwith.
mircea_popescu: expensive wood is not a case of "hey, x team can never win, cedar lol"
asciilifeform: iirc no one ever even ~tried~ the 'optimize for cost, survival boat' design prior.
asciilifeform: i suspect that mircea_popescu pisses on 'quidnon' for reasons which have nothing to do with hydrodynamics or metallurgy
phf: nah, there was that other guy who built a computerized nomadic boat house (i think he started with a computerized recumbent bike in the 80s) and unlike orlol he actually documented his process very extensively
asciilifeform: but rather that he is revolted by the concept of antisocial capsule per se
trinque: sounds like resigning to die, but then not having the dignity to eat the bullet
asciilifeform: phf: what was 'boat house' in context ? afaik the phrase usually refers to a fragile river barge thing, rather than machine to survive north atlantic
phf: asciilifeform: the latter
asciilifeform: phf: interesting
asciilifeform: phf: ok not so interesting. it's a giant diesel thing
asciilifeform: full of $maxint tech
phf: well, it has both sail and diesel
asciilifeform: about as practical, for a non-mircea_popescu, as a space station, to own.
phf: and the problem he was trying to solve is a lot closer to what you want to achieve, i.e. put lab on water, rather than recreate the lifestyle of late 6th century pirate nomads or whatever
phf: with corresponding required capital investment
trinque: if you've reached the point where the world has beaten you back to being willing to live in a shipping container, why live?
trinque: this guy's got a lab, what, to continue taking part in the same world he can't stand?
phf: trinque: wut
trinque: exactly what I said.
thestringpuller: trinque: http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-KU141_blackl_G_20151015224318.jpg << not if your shipping container looks like this on the inside
asciilifeform: trinque: there is a great deal to be said for living in a shipping container
asciilifeform: i would happily move into one RIGHT NOW if it meant that i could start accumulating escape money..
phf: trinque: it's techno nomad, it's a thing. microship guy doesn't really try to solve same problem as orlol, it's all different people with personal interests and agendas that don't necessarily compose into a single stereotype
asciilifeform: so long as it were a container AT SEA and not in a bum park
asciilifeform: AWAY FROM PEOPLE
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505505 << this is a ridiculous notion ; for one thing, polynesia got colonized prior to the age of sail.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 15:48 asciilifeform: iirc no one ever even ~tried~ the 'optimize for cost, survival boat' design prior.
asciilifeform: no one in industrial age. fine.
asciilifeform: may as well bring up crashed pilots building rafts, optimizing for cost..
mircea_popescu: far be itfrom me to insult your boyish dream of independence ; but let it be said that boats are boats and have been so for a long time now.
asciilifeform: and arithmetic is arithmetic and what is this steam computer nonsense.
asciilifeform: long division will be same forever!111
mircea_popescu: for that matter, recorded performance in both the time of venice owning the mediteranean and of portuguese empire in south china sea is not currently met by "performant" plastic boats.
asciilifeform: foolish dreams of mechanical arithmetizers notwithstanding!11
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform look, there's nothing wrong with this principle in principle, but electric performance and hydrodynamic performance are not the same thing
mircea_popescu: look at tables of materials, comparing say young modulus and resistivity.
mircea_popescu: different phenomena, with the former much narrower for good physical reasons.
mircea_popescu: yes, wood makes a very poor cpu ; lead sulphide better ; silicone-germanium mix even better.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: consider pykrete.
mircea_popescu: yet! wood makes fine boat ; some plastics cheaper, some composites somewhat better much more expensive. that's it.
mircea_popescu: what of pykrete ?
asciilifeform: it is a qualitative jump, in cost AND repairability, and i have nfi why orlov ignored it.
mircea_popescu: it isn't, no.
asciilifeform: eh you get a hull for so long as you can score a few kg of sawdust every month.
asciilifeform: this imho is a win.
mircea_popescu: it just seems so, until and unless you try to ... you know, emplace a cannon on it. "shit, it slides!!"
asciilifeform: ah no.
mircea_popescu: ah well then.
asciilifeform: there was a test vessel, worked great.
asciilifeform: no slide.
trinque: phf: there's a contradiction in someone that just wants to techmology, doesn't want to have to talk to anyone. Technology is a social enterprise; if social conditions are that bad, there are problems more fundamental than "can't have real computer" and such.
asciilifeform: you can anchor bolts in it, like in cement.
asciilifeform: and it surfaces ok.
asciilifeform: trinque: 'talk to anyone' i am happy to do. but a SELECTABLE 'anyone'.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you can calculate the energy cannon firings release per firing. that goes into melting your platform.
asciilifeform: pointedly not 'neighbours in trailer park'
trinque: asciilifeform: you can select now
phf: trinque: you're making assumptions about these other people from what asciilifeform is saying
asciilifeform: trinque: i pay the equivalent of a nice car every year for this selection.
trinque: phf: mostly speaking to that, yes. this guy with the $maxint boat probably spends plenty of time off it too
asciilifeform: trinque: i would prefer to select simply by moving my house into international water and submerging.
phf: even orlol made a point a few times that he boats not because end of world, but because it's in his nomadic nature. that's distinctly not what asciilifeform is trying to do
trinque: could make sense. I'm a city creature.
asciilifeform: actually orlov did at one point say that he would be happy to live in a land truck but it is too easily accessible by enemies
phf: trinque: like this picture is more representative http://microship.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Move-House-bike-tent-1024x710.jpg :>
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505489 << it is a very naive view to "Antisocial" that you will ... find a daddy to enforce the limits for you. God ocean has better shit to do, just like yahveh has better shit to do.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 15:44 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's 'sailboat' is a racing yacht. orlov's is a (mostly) wind-powered antisocial survival capsule.
mircea_popescu: this is in no substantial way different from the "Reisistance through culture" of the soviet "intellectuals" aka schmucks.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu simply doesn't grok the depth of asciilifeform's misanthropy.
mircea_popescu: no, has nothing to do with you. we're discussing boats not your person hiar.
asciilifeform: that was simply answer to 'why interest in subj'
mircea_popescu: no matter how sad you are, hair's not gonna jump off the scissors and back on your head ; no matter how emo you are, ocean still won't suddenly become a space allocator working as you want it to.
asciilifeform: this however is an engineering question
mircea_popescu: not really, no.
asciilifeform: just as 'can man live on mars' is.
mircea_popescu: "can man live on mars" is engineering question ; "can man live on mars to escape lost love" is not.
mircea_popescu: yours is of the later kind.
asciilifeform: it is a textbook 'cutting apart' item: what does yacht cost if you cut away all of the dirigible crapolade
asciilifeform: (rare woods, racing optimizations, lack of plumbing, etc)
phf: i think ascii would benefit best from building Nautilus. spacious, has lab, has pet, mostly as away from humans as possible, can defend itself from government and pirates. an entirely imaginary device
mircea_popescu: and the answer is that "yacht" only exists in mind of people too poor to have experience with the matter ; and otherwise it's a number of discrete items you're invited to pick amongst.
mircea_popescu: phf wait, did nemo actually have fucktoy on board ?!
mircea_popescu: i musta slept through this.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i actually poked nose into the subj, so not entirely innocent of 'yacht is 1,01 types of machine' concept
phf: well, it was victorian equivalent of fucktoy, mostly just lots of talking and showing off :>
mircea_popescu: did you poke nose in the sense of actually spending any sort of time on water ?
asciilifeform: where would i ?
asciilifeform: i did not spend any time on mars, either
mircea_popescu: cuz the idea that you'd want to, in preference of, say, prison, is entirely shocking to me.
asciilifeform: I HATE PEOPLE
asciilifeform: this is hard concept ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform prison is right there with monastery. no people.
asciilifeform: which prison is that ?
mircea_popescu: phf i have no recolection of this. testament to my interest in female anything aged 12, when i read jules verne.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform any serious one. and if they put you in general population, slit a throat or two, you'll get solitary and be happy.
phf: mircea_popescu: huh, i checked the plot and i was wrong, i was convinced that the protagonist was a lady
asciilifeform: 'prisoner held incommunicado' is not same as 'i choose when i want to people and when not to'
mircea_popescu: you flatter yourself as to your choices on the sea.
mircea_popescu: there's a reason greeks call it the master of things.
asciilifeform: they did not have subs.
mircea_popescu: only land lubber could conceivably have this notion of the sea, as a sort of commodified milk in carton in fridge.
mircea_popescu: it ain't.
asciilifeform: which laugh at storms and rocks.
mircea_popescu: the greeks ? ironically, thye did ya!
mircea_popescu: toy subs, like the toy steam engine
asciilifeform: iirc barrel sub was a 17th c. item.
asciilifeform: no confirmed examples prior.
mircea_popescu: afaik 3bc, pearl hunting item
asciilifeform: diving bell? not sub!
asciilifeform: go weather a storm in a diving bell.
asciilifeform: and sail back home in it.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 15:48 asciilifeform: i suspect that mircea_popescu pisses on 'quidnon' for reasons which have nothing to do with hydrodynamics or metallurgy
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 16:05 mircea_popescu: cuz the idea that you'd want to, in preference of, say, prison, is entirely shocking to me.
mircea_popescu: no, that's an unrelated item.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu doesn't even conceptualize the problem i'd like solved as being a problem.
asciilifeform: he sees it as a 'how can i make green a prime number' or the like.
mircea_popescu: no, no. on one hand, i see your approach to be fundamentally flawed, for lack of experience. this is a practical consideration. on the other hand, i suspect the flaw may not be accidental, but proceed from psychogenic cause, which is unclear to me.
asciilifeform: incidentally i see 'quidnon' as a terrible design, and have no expectation that i will ever set foot in one.
mircea_popescu: wait, that's actually the name of something ?
asciilifeform: his machine, aha
mircea_popescu: ah ok.
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's not a matter of how to make green a prime number. it's more of a matter of "how to make cryptographic rng work from a seed".
mircea_popescu: there's fundamental breakage underlying this being "conceptualized" as a problem in the first place.
asciilifeform: i dun see the link.
asciilifeform: as i picture it, 'orlov's boat' is simply a lower-tech variation of the theme of 'mars dome'
asciilifeform: which may or may not be possible, but strictly for physical reasons
mircea_popescu: the theme of "mars dome" is a fiction trope.
mircea_popescu: hence the obvious connection to the adventures of captain nemo, as retold by verne.
asciilifeform: there is a distinction between the ~physically~ and ~economically~ impossible machine.
asciilifeform: the former is a waste of mental cycles
asciilifeform: the latter - is not necessarily.
mircea_popescu: if we'll colonize, it'll likely be venus before mars, and it'll likely be through planetary scale atmospheric intervention rather than "domes" wtf be those.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the transport vessel is a special case of 'dome'
asciilifeform: for this purpose.
mircea_popescu: fiction may contain the emotions of the author, as a point for his compatriots to fixate on and navigate what otherwise is endless, meaningless, the sea of representation.
mircea_popescu: technology doth not flow this way.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the transport vessel is a case of dome much in the way spontaneous healing of aids is a case of divine grace.
mircea_popescu: sure, if you want it to.
asciilifeform: in the abstract sense of 'box in which i can weld myself in and survive for Y years'
asciilifeform: against vacuum, meteorites
mircea_popescu: this isn't really how transport vessels work, except for a subset of young males.
asciilifeform: let's take a living example, the nuke sub
asciilifeform: patrol is about 3 mo. long, for largely psychiatric reasons (they COULD store moar phood, but do not)
asciilifeform: overhaul is a ~yearly thing.
mircea_popescu: see ?
mircea_popescu: you got your answer right htere.
asciilifeform: so next question is, can improve this ?
asciilifeform: how much of the $maxint machine do you ~need~ if you don't need to launch nukes ? etc
mircea_popescu: the nuke sub is exactly an item with no utility or human interest, built under the PRETEXT of a "nuclear war", which is another fiction trope with not much real anchorage (as discussed in some trilema article).
mircea_popescu: upon practice, it turns out that... people dun wanna be there.
mircea_popescu: which is why my q re prison.
asciilifeform: people dun wanna be in a tank either.
mircea_popescu: "but i do" ?
asciilifeform: as a boy i very much wanted to.
mircea_popescu: hence my point.
mircea_popescu: go, sail a little, get teh gargauni out ?
mircea_popescu: you wouldn't want TO LIVE IN YOUR FUCKING CAR, communitng forever for the rest of your life, yes ?
asciilifeform: not that i couldn't arrange it, but that it would not be accurate picture of ~purpose-designed~ capsule
mircea_popescu: EVEN IF i fucking armored it and added a thermoplonjon thing.
asciilifeform: i would happily live in a truck if the truck could be teleported into a parallel space with 0 people by push of a button.
asciilifeform: (yes this is not what you get in a boat, but it is a kind of mathematical ideal)
mircea_popescu: alternatively, "accepta-l pe gusti in viata ta"
mircea_popescu: you know that one ?
mircea_popescu: (they're lost in space, the histrion takes a shit, which flies towards the foil ; "accept Gusti in your life!")
asciilifeform: i must confess, this is a hard nut
mircea_popescu: "i swear it came out by itself! i didn't even push! it has a mind of its own! let's call him gusti!"
asciilifeform: still not obvious, perhaps i'm thick
mircea_popescu: "look how it leaves... like a child his house.... go gusti! follow your dreams! you too could, one day, be president!"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform women shit shits into the world, which follow their dreams and could one day be president. accept gusti in your life!
asciilifeform: is this simply variation on familiar mircea_popescu program 'i am demigod and if somebody has a motivation i don't grasp, they are inconsequential sea slug and stfu' ?
mircea_popescu: well, i suppose it could be.
mircea_popescu: but to my eyes, it;s more a case of "i want impossible item" "why ?" "because of strange notion" "Wouldn't it be cheaper to..." "fu demigod, it is true humanity to do the impossible ; takes demigod to accept the obvious!"
mircea_popescu: which is not necessarily a mistaken view.
asciilifeform: the last time we had this thread we got a, imho, more interesting mircea_popescuine: 'boat is wrong problem because you are trying to make being poor and powerless work, if yer poor yer job is to die'
mircea_popescu: i'm not entirely sure this is that different from that.
asciilifeform: well it was a philosophical rather than technical counter.
asciilifeform: 'no, mr bond, we expect you to die!111'
mircea_popescu: there was a technical counter there, as here ; it was abandoned upon your surrender. what was left were there as here "philosophical" let's say items, which lacking any proper substance can continue indefinitely.
asciilifeform: i see the hypothetical machine as a pill against 'if yer poor you gotta live near other poor folks'
mircea_popescu: (proper there meaning "of its own" not "correct")
asciilifeform: which is the fundamental problem with live-in trucks etc.
mircea_popescu: why do you think it is a fundamental problem with only SOME things is beyond me.
mircea_popescu: seems more wilful self-hypnosis than anything.
asciilifeform: elaborate plox?
mircea_popescu: if you're poor your only hope of survival is the swarm. this is a point of fact, and why peasants and hunters flocked to town to be poor there.
mircea_popescu: this is the definition of poverty, nude and rude : incapable of surviving on own.
asciilifeform: not how american push west worked.
mircea_popescu: quite how it worked, yes.
asciilifeform: plenty of 'poor and we will live four days' journey from the next poor'
mircea_popescu: demographically, rather than as a work of fiction, the push west was a push towards the highly concentrated san francisco.
asciilifeform: granted these were households, with plenty of disposable human torpedoes, not lone wolf. but still.
mircea_popescu: "still" ? what fucking still!
mircea_popescu: do we revisit the egyptian household thread from last week ?
asciilifeform: egyptian swarm is great for the mass of humanity. folks with 0 theorems.
mircea_popescu: i guess ima have to dig the link now.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-03 17:48 mircea_popescu: there's ONE thing the middle eastern guy has that white man can't replicate, and that is, a stable, and here i kid you not, a stable, of dozen+ pliable obedient females WITH offspring.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-03 17:44 mircea_popescu: for the anthropologist, god damned fascinating, they're like a family-sized snail building its conch.
asciilifeform: no denying that it is a powerful thing.
mircea_popescu: but you just denied
asciilifeform: question is, folks who dun have it, or dun want it, ought to eat their pistol immediately ? or there are other ways to live.
mircea_popescu: you said "but still". that's denial. and worse - a disawoved denial.
mircea_popescu: of such substance sufferance is always made.
asciilifeform: well then let's concretize: no, i personally have 0 interest in being part of a mormon family. and yes, it means i live until first broken leg. maybe this is acceptable tradeoff from my pov.
mircea_popescu: oregon trail consisted of ? man and woman and grown children and the grown women's boyfriends and and and and a dog@!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if it is or if it isn't is your choice to make ; but don't go around showing me your holy amulets that prevent leg breaking.
asciilifeform: no amulet.
asciilifeform: but the question of 'how long can last' is an engineering question.
asciilifeform: not philosophical.
mircea_popescu: "quinine" or we it was called
asciilifeform: this was my sole objection to mircea_popescu's position - he mixes technical (you can NEVER make this machine work economically) with philosophical (trying to ~formulate~, not to mention ~solve~, this problem is MADNESS!111) objection.
asciilifeform: and quite likely mircea_popescu is right re the technical side.
asciilifeform: but i say they are worth considering separately.
asciilifeform: because technical breakthroughs occasionally do happen.
mircea_popescu: i don't think trying to formulate it is madness ; i do think that the orlov formulation is ridiculous at best.
asciilifeform: if anything, he is blinded by... his experience aboard actual boats!
mircea_popescu: actually, further - i think that attempts to solve it on those lines will cost the attempter his life and sanity for no benefit. in other words - i say orlov is a scammer.
asciilifeform: just as differential engine was not built by an arithmetizer-girl.
asciilifeform: shouldn't a scammer have some money on occasion ?
asciilifeform: 'charlatan' is perhaps better adj ?
mircea_popescu: i'm not directing this at him. he is whatever, i dun care. but from YOUR perspective, he works practically as a scammer. you know how donner party ended up in the spot where they ate each other ?
mircea_popescu: they followed the guidance of some derp. that derp.
mircea_popescu: and yes, the derp was broadly correct, itwas "in that general direction" and so forth. but omfg patch of salt!
asciilifeform: so what would a sane approach to 'i wish to live with the company of other bipeds being wholly SELECTABLE', if not boat ? or mircea_popescu sees entire question as nuttery.
asciilifeform: money is involved in any case: boat isn't free
mircea_popescu: this is ~the only function of money.
asciilifeform: but what is the minimal money necessary? and what to build with it ?
asciilifeform: if answer is 'large egyptian family', not interested.
asciilifeform: it doesn't solve the problem !
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform asking "What is the minimal money necessary" is like asking "what is the minimum current draw of useful appliance". it depends neh ? for the money orlov already spent on his pretense (boat, authorship, whatever), egyptian native could have lived entire life happily in the circumstance of "the company of other bipeds being wholly SELECTABLE".
mircea_popescu: i say this on the basis of actual experience, not as a matter of "i imagine boats sometime when i'm frustrated"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu must have very different notion of 'selectable' if it has room for an orc anthill
mircea_popescu: you have nfi what egypt is!
mircea_popescu: it sits atop a desert.
asciilifeform owns a map...
mircea_popescu visited sufi, was admitted, first person to be admitted in ~decade.
mircea_popescu also visited coptic monastery ; we were the first visitors since summer.
asciilifeform: ^ now this, interesting!
asciilifeform: are they all dead today /
mircea_popescu: i have no way to know.
asciilifeform: i suppose it would not be high quality monastery if we had a way to know...
mircea_popescu: they were not on any map ; owing perhaps to the happenstance egyptians generally dunno wtf map is, but perhaps not just.
asciilifeform: incidentally monasteries are a weaker, land-based special case of the thing i am interested in.
mircea_popescu: anyway, also visited (danish iirc ?) archeological camp, abandoned since 1986.
mircea_popescu: there's tons of these. you could go live in a fucking tomb and probably die of natural causes before they'd even find out.
mircea_popescu: the cairo museum is overflowing with items stacked 5 deep.
mircea_popescu: etc etc.
asciilifeform: if you run a genset near that tomb, quite likely someone will take an interest at some point, no ?
mircea_popescu: not likely.
mircea_popescu: but the sand will cover your intake.
asciilifeform: yes, if you want to live like a bear, in a hole, it can even be done in a u.s. national park. people have.
asciilifeform: (iirc record holder was: ~35 years!)
mircea_popescu: $s man can live and never be found
a111: 1 results for "man can live and never be found", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=man%20can%20live%20and%20never%20be%20found
asciilifeform: but even he was eventually spotted by tourists - plume of smoke.
mircea_popescu: hence it comes down to money. not random amulet, be it boat, dome or kryptonite.
mircea_popescu: money and that's it.
asciilifeform: this begs the question. yes, you need money. just as you need rocket to get to mars. but ~how much~ and what vector.
mircea_popescu: and understand - this is the fundamental boyishness here. "father, how should i be a powerful lord ?" "have many friends" "i'll just build a strong castle"
asciilifeform: naturally 'powerful lord' immediately botches the question
asciilifeform: the actual question is 'how do i be left alone'
asciilifeform: not 'be powerful lord'
mircea_popescu: the only definition of "powerful lord" is "he who can exclude others".
asciilifeform: 'be powerful' is not an answer, it is an answer to a different problem.
mircea_popescu: there is EXACTLY no other ; and the main issue of the war of troy was, "who the fuck does agamemnon think he is!"
mircea_popescu: a change from, "who the fuck does this priam think he is"
asciilifeform: if the problem is posed as 'can i build a castle in which i can successfully stow a stolen princess every time', then yes, answer is 'be powerful'
asciilifeform: but if more modest constraint ?
mircea_popescu: the momeny you've defined your aim as "to exclude others", you have therefore and inseparably defined your goal as "i wish to be powerful lord"
mircea_popescu: and yes, it comes with the gunk - once you are powerful lord for yourself, you gotta also select others for which to be, or else make enemies.
asciilifeform: actually this is reminiscent of the aerodynamic problem which nailed dirigibles:
mircea_popescu: so you'll store your apparata ; plus three princesses and some stolen fenders.
mircea_popescu: or hubcaps or w/e the nigglets steal thgese days.
asciilifeform: thing is a sail. wind pushes it off course, and also down (crash.) and fuel is exhausted. can try to counter this by building larger engines, but then need bigger lifting envelope, and you get... moar sail.
asciilifeform: and so on until you're entirely hosed.
asciilifeform: so it is not clear that 'be a great king' is optimal solution to 'be left alone'
asciilifeform: great king attracts great usurpers.
mircea_popescu: hence my observation that the problem is psychogenic in nature.
asciilifeform: possibly answer is, be small king.
asciilifeform: far away.
mircea_popescu: whenever you end up with a problem which has no real roots, you therefore have a problem which... has no real roots.
asciilifeform: all problems are ultimately psychogenic.
asciilifeform: no man, no problem (tm) (r)
mircea_popescu: that's a different thing. all non-problems are non-psychogenic.
mircea_popescu: anyway. problems, like f(x)=some polynomial, either have or don't have real roots.
mircea_popescu: if they do, are solvable in practice. if they don't, you're advised to fix your head.
asciilifeform: i agree.
asciilifeform: but do not see it demonstrated here that problem i posed has 0 roots.
mircea_popescu: well, what can i tell ya.
asciilifeform pictures remembering this thread one day as the decks are awash and the end nears
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> possibly answer is, be small king. far away <<< this is quite lulzy, you know. "i want a center of a circle that's squarer and closer to the margin"
asciilifeform: hey, recall the sphere thread ?
mircea_popescu: which ?
mircea_popescu: we do lots of platonic objects.
asciilifeform: al schwartz's proof that n-dimensional sphere has more and more of its volume closer and closer to the surface as N approaches infinity
asciilifeform: the 'extremist solutions' essay
mircea_popescu: afaik this is 1700s tech but ok.
mircea_popescu: i dun recall that essay ? do link then.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505509 << you familiar with the famous vlad tepes vs mehmed 2 encounter ?
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 15:49 trinque: sounds like resigning to die, but then not having the dignity to eat the bullet
asciilifeform: ( http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/sphere.htm is all i could find, but the meat of the discussion was in a now-lost usenet post... )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: hm ?
mircea_popescu: you know, sultan ordered "an army as strong as the one which took constantinople" be assembled to deal with this guy once and for all. after not doing so well for a long time eventually cornered him against a mountain, where vlad told his men that neither capture nor death of famine beign fitting of warriors, how about we go into their camp and fucking rape them.
mircea_popescu: which they famously did.
mircea_popescu: sultan lost it, ran off, etc.
asciilifeform: hey, worked for stalin, later.
asciilifeform: but it makes generous use of everett's device. outside of a few 'sexy' cases, we don't get to hear from the dead armies.
asciilifeform: who charged into meat grinder to 0 result.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505518 << strangely enough, none of the kids playing history (with the abundance their forefathers so imprudently assured them) realise that "hey, things are linked, a boat like this means i gotta sleep with a schmitar under pillow!"
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 15:51 phf: and the problem he was trying to solve is a lot closer to what you want to achieve, i.e. put lab on water, rather than recreate the lifestyle of late 6th century pirate nomads or whatever
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in the man's own words, "he who thinks of death best not follow me"
asciilifeform: imho we can skip the menschkeit 'everett's device is the only working device' mega-thread, subj is amply worked in the l0gz...
mircea_popescu: note that i was talking to his thing!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505521 << generally people that do labwork "for the world" aren't worth much scientifically ; the ones that do science dun usually care what the wofld does.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 15:52 trinque: this guy's got a lab, what, to continue taking part in the same world he can't stand?
asciilifeform: ^ aha. see the 'coffin notebook' thread.
asciilifeform: many folks dun even lift a finger to publish the goodz.
asciilifeform: because pearls,swine.etc
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505527 << depends how high up you scale. to me they do - as stated, people with large inheritance trying to pretend. a sort of niccolo da canal, say.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 15:54 phf: trinque: it's techno nomad, it's a thing. microship guy doesn't really try to solve same problem as orlol, it's all different people with personal interests and agendas that don't necessarily compose into a single stereotype
trinque: mircea_popescu: science is still a matter of conversation with others
trinque: wasn't saying "for" but "how"
mircea_popescu: (1469 captain general of venetian navy, no naval experience, guy being a lawyer and orator at papal court. chose to pretend like he knew his shit, cost venice its head eventually.)
trinque: guy in a monastery still writes letters
mircea_popescu: surely some do.
mircea_popescu: depends tho, some parts of science are nonconversational. it's a mixed bag.
mircea_popescu: perhaps tycho brache / keppler is the best example of this duality.
mircea_popescu: brache was, famously, so incapable of social intercourse he couldn't leave a banquet and died of a busted bladder.
asciilifeform: who chopped off his nose, then ?
asciilifeform: iirc he was a social butterfly, just a somewhat loose cannon while at it
trinque: I suspect people who can't find *anyone* to tolerate of a sort of gabriel_laddelism, i.e. if I stay up for 48hrs on tab cola I can rewrite gentoo portage fastrrrr
trinque: but then, asciilifeform could gossipd from his water-tomb I'm sure, so there's that.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505780 <<< the answer is also obvious enough. a PERCENTAGE of the total money calculated on the basis of integration. these days, 50%, hence the bitcoin mining process.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 16:54 asciilifeform: this begs the question. yes, you need money. just as you need rocket to get to mars. but ~how much~ and what vector.
mircea_popescu: but the % varies - at the heyday of the empire, during trajan, burebista's 200+ tons of gold were not enough ; centuries later, a few % of that sufficed for an entire dynasty of paleologai
asciilifeform: picture mircea_popescu were asked to design a bridge. 'just part 50% of the moon's mass right ~here~...'
mircea_popescu: "if my answers scare you, time to stop asking scary questions"
asciilifeform: it isn't 'scares', but more of the british admiral's answer to 'what shall we do about uboats?' -- 'boil the ocean'
mircea_popescu: otherwise, in common terms the problem is solved : 4 room floating apt can be had used in good condition for a coupla mil.
asciilifeform: not esp. interesting from pov of solutions.
mircea_popescu: work the stoicks a summer, buy boat.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is like that fella ( mthreat ?) who bought a mig
asciilifeform: it isn't 'coupla mil', it is 'coupla mil' plus 'own 100 slaves' plus 'lifetime of diesel and $1000 plumbing fittings'
mircea_popescu: actually he bought a jet not a mig ; it was a few hundred not mil ; and it's not a terribru investment.
asciilifeform: nor will it be repairable at sea, or survive north atlantic storms.
mircea_popescu: depends how much he flies it. but good engines, like good everythging - no longe rmade
asciilifeform: on what planet is it ~investment~ ?
asciilifeform: sov engines were good for ~200 hours.
asciilifeform: after that, thrown out.
mircea_popescu: on the planet where the guy he bought it from paid 15% what it cost in 2014
asciilifeform: ah as museum piece.
asciilifeform: then - yes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but BEFORE those 200 hours.
asciilifeform: ~flying~ the investatron would be nuts.
mircea_popescu: well yes.
mircea_popescu: fucking the painting, also.
asciilifeform: you wouldn't FIRE a 17th c. musket.
mircea_popescu: or for that matter the 16yo slave girl.
asciilifeform: so - either investment, or fly. pick.
asciilifeform: at any rate, a machine-for-being-comfortably-poor that costs 2mil, if it were to exist, would be a solid answer to my equation. but the diesel pleasure boat is pointedly not it.
mircea_popescu: anyway ; floating apartment is not much worse for maintenance than car.
asciilifeform: if you don't live at sea.
asciilifeform: in port, it is an expensive kind of camper truck, yes.
mircea_popescu: yeah. in port it's iffier.
mircea_popescu: "pointedly not it", chiefly because you're trying the oldest trick in the poorfag's book, which is to say to NAME his target according to the conventions of trade, but to secretly expect it to satisfy his metaphysical expectations.
asciilifeform: incidentally i've learned that many folks in american east coast live in boats, but do it 100% in the marina. as a kind of enforced-whiteness trailer park.
mircea_popescu: which is why it's always cheaper for merchant to cater to old dutchess than to young upstart wife.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: expand ?
mircea_popescu: it pointedly does everything you openly admit you want ; and fails to do all the things you want but disawov, such as "it should be a grownup for me".
mircea_popescu: so you know, "pointedly is not".
asciilifeform: i can spell out the missing piece (thought it was obvious)
asciilifeform: the recurring costs, and recurring dependencies on shore, are idiotically high
asciilifeform: ergo it is simply a small flat that happens to - temporarily - float. not a machine for surviving 2000km from nearest man.
asciilifeform: for a year.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: well, figure out what you eat in a year ; plus all the things you might want but won't eventually eat.
mircea_popescu: suddenly your item is not a mere boat but a fucking battleship.
asciilifeform: about size of 2 refrigerator trucks.
asciilifeform: i did the arithmetic.
asciilifeform: would look quite like that museum sub.
mircea_popescu: fresh water, at a gallon a day per head, means if you're actually alone a deux, 4 tons just that.
asciilifeform: water is distilled, wtf.
mircea_popescu: i suppose you could not wash for an entire year, a la rms...
asciilifeform: even the sub didn't CARRY fresh water, srsly
mircea_popescu: your sail will power a seawater processing plant now ?
asciilifeform: the ultimate constraint is energy, aha
mircea_popescu: those things are no smaller than X size for a reason.
mircea_popescu: you ever tasted ocean-desalinated water btw ?
asciilifeform: how long photo panel lives for, how many fit on deck, what can you get from windmills, etc.
mircea_popescu: i wouldn't drink that. not for a year.
asciilifeform: submariners - drank.
asciilifeform: if it's any consolation, likely none of us would qualify as submariners, most blokes alive today are too tall for ww2 sub
asciilifeform: i am not a tall fella but i did not fit in the cot in that museum-sub (it was largely unguarded and you could play with the contents)
asciilifeform: pet - fit.
mircea_popescu: so you'll drink piss just so as to not have to listen to the neighbours fuck ?
asciilifeform: well, more that i am willing to ask 'how ~much~ piss would i need to drink so that...'
mats: and then you get to enjoy hot racking with the crew
mircea_popescu: 365 days of a gallon each. coupla tons.
asciilifeform: mats: in last thread, we did 'how much of a crew is needed with modern mechanisms'
mircea_popescu: mats his sub has no crew. just his pet robot!
mats: like sitting on a freshly warm toilet seat, with less ick factor
mircea_popescu: anyway. ima go do things. with people.
mircea_popescu: mats i like that!
asciilifeform: have fun mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: course, it's always my womenz that warmed it, might be a factor.
asciilifeform: ( did mircea_popescu ever build that mega-toilet ??)
mats: it's a fleeting, intimate moment with a stranger, in my case
mats: asciilifeform: I read the thread but didn't see a number, what did you arrive at?
asciilifeform: mats: i never determined a hard minimum. but will note that most of the folk on a ww2 sub did things that would be mechanical/reasonably automatic today.
asciilifeform: (turning valves, etc.)
mats: so, over or under ten?
asciilifeform: ideally ~= 2.
asciilifeform: but don't conflate the war machine and the survival capsule from thread.
asciilifeform: wholly different domains.
asciilifeform: how big of a crew does mats's house have ?
trinque: I admit I was googling solar yachts only yesterday
trinque: seems like if you're wiling to go about 7-10kts there are a few
asciilifeform: trinque: you will find that the machines are not designed for permanent life aboard, or to survive winters.
asciilifeform: ergo the thread.
thestringpuller: so i'm using suds with python. i'm looking at the package maintanence and the mailing list. anyhow when an opensource project dies, can you just be like "i'm forking this and doing it"
asciilifeform: ...sure ?
asciilifeform: or what, old maintainer will carbomb you ?
BingoBoingo: Nothing wrong with shipping container as concrete pouring mold, especially since you can tie rebar in there too. http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505520
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 15:52 trinque: if you've reached the point where the world has beaten you back to being willing to live in a shipping container, why live?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: gavin has not yet showed up at my house with kalash
thestringpuller: fair point.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: land fortresses ~dunwork.
asciilifeform: (i suppose they do, if you're chingis khan, or mircea_popescu , etc. but not for the contemplated poorfag use case.)
mats: asciilifeform: two
phf: i'd live on a sub, if it had those 1970s stage set rooms with giant windows through which you can observe underwater marine life, but which you can also close if you're being attacked by the establishment
asciilifeform: i will add that my interest in subj is not limited to the sea, but to all other environments which are hostile to 'normalpeoplewithfamilies' (as depicted in mircea_popescu's articles) yet have plenty of room to be 'lost' inside, and quite habitable with some amount of technological help
asciilifeform: phf: aha!
trinque: gonna have to build rapture
trinque: I'd live there
trinque: undersea city in Bioshock
asciilifeform: a city is quite the opposite of subj, no ?
phf: too libertarian for my taste, proud people of short stature standing tall
trinque: > plenty of room to be 'lost' inside
trinque: lol, mystical item indeed
asciilifeform: trinque: a city is, by definition, what i'd like to avoid.
trinque: that was probaby *my* escapist fantasy leaking in
trinque: less shipping crate and more crypto-babylon
asciilifeform: the problem i was futilely stabbing away at is 'how to be independent of homo homini lupus est'
asciilifeform: there is 1 historic solution, as mircea_popescu like to point out, 'be chingis khan', 10,001 slaves, armies, castles.
trinque: phf: sure sure, just the physical thing without the Rand
asciilifeform: there may be other solution.
asciilifeform: trinque: i played the game, it had about the same relationship to rand as 'Der Giftpilz' has to judaism.
asciilifeform: $s der giftpilz
asciilifeform: $s Der Giftpilz
phf: asciilifeform: have you read hakim bey's "pirate utopias"?
shinohai: http://animatedviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/sea202002.jpg <<< or you can make a sealab
asciilifeform: shinohai: why not orbitlab. probably cheaper.
asciilifeform: plenty of mockable nonsolutions to choose from.
phf: or find some underwater grotto on one of less inhabited greek islands, seal it, etc.
shinohai: We already have orbitlab up there
phf prefers james bond solutions
trinque: no good, sealab blows up once an episode.
phf: asciilifeform: it's a totally speculative exploration of north african pirate city states during the age of exploration http://hermetic.com/bey/pirate-utopias/ it might appeal to your romantic nature
asciilifeform puts on list.
ben_vulpes: trinque: not triggered, but definitely amused.
ben_vulpes: when the problem domains are simple, the solution proposed appears to work. in reality, as *tard mgmt demands more features, flexibility, reports, etc, the complexity of maintaining and extending under the frameworkreich becomes more and more costly, a thing not necessarily apparent to anyone who hasn't suffered the saga or who doesn't think in terms of complexity minimization from the get-go.
ben_vulpes: i believe that you're familiar with this?
jurov: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505520 << actually this might not be so bad idea. i.e. "internodal transport nomad"
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 15:52 trinque: if you've reached the point where the world has beaten you back to being willing to live in a shipping container, why live?
mats: http://www.snbforums.com/threads/unable-to-update-firmware-from-asus-380-3264-to-merlin.32786 "To comply with regulatory amendments, we have modified our certification rule to ensure better firmware quality. This version is not compatible with all previously released ASUS firmware and uncertified third party firmware. Please check our official websites for
mats: the certified firmware."
asciilifeform: 'ASUS are co-working with developers such as Merlin and DDWRT to make sure 3rd party firmwares power are the same as ASUS firmware and obey the regulations. ' << lel.
asciilifeform: reflash with probes.
asciilifeform: piss on'em.
asciilifeform: but yes, none of this has anything to do with spectrum politeness and everything to do with 'them terrorists install non-usgificated firmware, handbuilt bsds even, this has got to stop'
asciilifeform: just like what microshit is in the process of achieving with pc.
asciilifeform: 'boot signed bootloader' etc.
asciilifeform: 'for yer own good.'
asciilifeform: mats: and the pigfuckers certainly don't want you and i turning the wifi chip into mesh network etc.
asciilifeform: various gaping holes of 'nobody could have foreseen!' are being plugged.
phf: WIFI is so that you can talk between your WINDOWS 10 PC and your COMCAST ROUTER, duh
mats: let em try to stop, its an excellent expenditure of funds
mats: .cn is happy to churn em out all the same, no?
asciilifeform: costs them ~0.
asciilifeform: cn will churn out STRICTLY what can be sold to the chumps and no more.
asciilifeform: incidentally cn co. 'baofeng' happily sells 'piss all over the spectrum' radio sets in usa.
asciilifeform: nobody bans.
asciilifeform: so the router thing is quite certainly not about spectrum policing.
asciilifeform: (baofeng is a short-range VOICE radio, though, and hence politically inconsequential.)
mats: i recall the issue being about power transmission
asciilifeform: the issue is about control.
mats: i'm reading the document and it doesn't explicitly say anything about the firmware
mats: >An applicant must describe the overall security measures and systems that ensure that: 1. only properly authenticated software is loaded and operating the device; and 2. the device is not easily modified to operate with RF parameters outside of the authorization.
asciilifeform: 1 is it.
asciilifeform: what's so hard to see ?
mats: 1 is so ridiculously vague that it doesn't mean anything to me
asciilifeform: 'device may only be sold if 1) it is broken in the ways we demand 2) user cannot fix it'
mats: authenticated by who?
asciilifeform: by usg.
mats: seems to me manufacturers are taking a generous interpretation to this in order to accelerate obsolescence
mats: i don't see the tendril at work here
mats: same old profit seeking motives.
asciilifeform: they could have done the 'signed firmware' thing in 1990s.
asciilifeform: tivo did.
asciilifeform: routers - did not.
asciilifeform: so 'profit motive' my arse.
asciilifeform: wide-open wrt54g sold more than all other put together.
mats: fuck that thing. took me almost an entire day to reflash, first go around
asciilifeform: but it... WORKED.
mats: too many revisions, and i don't think wrt54gl was available then
asciilifeform: there are still wrt54g in use.
asciilifeform: 'gl' was simply when they added the snipped upper 2MB of ram back in
asciilifeform: as 'extra cost'
asciilifeform: 'here, you can have usable box again!111 for 2x the cost! be happy'
asciilifeform: ('g' was sold, for its last few years of life, with insufficient ram to run any extant linux)
asciilifeform: at any rate, don't expect usg to surrender in their war against general-purpose radio.
asciilifeform: cheap universal digital radio drives snooping costs to astronomical heights, and threatens to de-emphasize centralized telco antennae
asciilifeform: quite the nightmare to statist mind.
pete_dushenski: "If you work at Goldman Sachs in New York City and you want to tie up a woman and then have sex with her, there’s a good chance you’ll first have to speak to Rita. She’ll insist on calling your office, speaking to the switchboard operator, and being patched through to your desk. Then she will want to check out your profile on the company website and LinkedIn. She’ll demand you send her message fro
pete_dushenski: m your work email, and require a scan of either your passport or driver’s license. And you will comply." << y u no pgp rita ?
mats: looks like i read the old ver of the doc. see https://apps.fcc.gov/kdb/GetAttachment.html?id=zXtrctoj6zH7oNEOO6De6g%3D%3D&desc=594280%20D02%20U-NII%20Device%20Security%20v01r03&tracking_number=39498 for the new one if you wanna read
pete_dushenski: "“I am looking to weed out police and crazies,” she said. She estimates that only one in four potential customers ultimately passes. Those who do win some time with a professional escort/dominatrix, but it comes at a hefty price: Each hour can cost up to $800, and Rita’s cut is 30%." << steep!
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: sounds suspiciously cheap
pete_dushenski: alf has cross-shopped in this market ?
mats: dunno that you can buy an hour's stay in a shoebox for $800 in nyc
asciilifeform: can't say that i have. simply that 800/h is not titanically selective of customers.
asciilifeform: i suppose the difference is being covered by the mandatory blackmail material
asciilifeform: as described in pete_dushenski's quote.
pete_dushenski: if it's only once or twice a month, a guess it's not that steep. and probably no more than a dinner for two at iron chef's resto in manhattan...
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505672 << submarine/boat can't promise this anymore. Niantic will put a poke-a-man stop near your nowhere and orcs follow.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 16:21 asciilifeform: i would happily live in a truck if the truck could be teleported into a parallel space with 0 people by push of a button.
pete_dushenski: bobby flay, that's the one i was thinking of
deedbot: [Qntra] Coinbase's Brian Armstrong Huffs The Ethereum Hardfork Jenkem - http://qntra.net/2016/07/coinbases-brian-armstrong-huffs-the-ethereum-hardfork-jenkem/
asciilifeform: anyway folks who run idiot traps (which is what this is) are a necessary part of ecosystem
asciilifeform: like vultures
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: wake me up when there are pokemonists in north atlantic.
pete_dushenski: isn't symbiosis beautiful ?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: based on observations in the wild, if they were told to go there they would.
asciilifeform: on what?
pete_dushenski: http://99percentinvisible.org/article/ghost-boxes-reusing-abandoned-big-box-superstores-across-america/ << reimagining post-box-store 'murica. life goes on, even with brittle vinyl bones.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: i always picture them as being reused for gulags.
asciilifeform: a la 'superdome'
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: What and how are immaterial, likely will be solved for them.
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505363 << same as kraken et al. as per http://www.contravex.com/2016/07/15/suppose-we-have-an-exchange-that-due-to-resource-limitations-is-limited-to-5-decimal-places-for-orders-or-how-kraken-is-scamming-to-stay-solvent/ << fleecing chumps... nothing to see here tewowist (israeli accent)
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 12:16 thestringpuller: Also they are nailing the doors shut on Ether tomorrow until "clear winner": "As a Poloniex customer, you do not need to do anything. The migration will occur automatically, and your full balance of Ethereum will be transferred to the winning chain. Keep in mind that as we near the fork, we will be temporarily disabling deposits and withdrawals in preparation for the migration process. Trading will continue
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: walls are kinda thin and flimsy for that purpose. the orcs with 'strong retard' muscle will bust through those barriers like a steam train through a sheet of tin foil.
pete_dushenski: "In Austin, Minnesota, another Kmart was turned into offices for Hormel, as well as a giant Spam Museum." << lol!
pete_dushenski could never understand his father's interest in spam. perhaps curio, perhaps rekindling of some memory, but it was always in house.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i just had a crate of lafonde b00kz come in. these have got to be the worst-formatted and least dense printed matter i have ever purchased.
asciilifeform: for fucks sake, what does he use, ms 'wordpad' ?!
BingoBoingo: Srsly? He seems to put most of the book content on blog.
asciilifeform: i have nfi
asciilifeform: good chunk of the text does look familiar, yes.
BingoBoingo: I kinda though his formula was most text on blog, book offers a bit of extra.
BingoBoingo: Anyways Orlov's plumbing problem is that when making the boat it should have been a primary rather than secondary consideration. Also wtf, hoses? Rigid copper seems like it would be much better for that application if boar design allowed for sanely routing pipes.
asciilifeform: why the fuck would you want rigid pipes on a boat.
asciilifeform: i mean, for water, this isn't reactor coolant
BingoBoingo: because they have just enough flex to not break and because unlike hoses do not break just because time passed.
asciilifeform: not all hose is made of shit y'know
asciilifeform: or exposed to light.
BingoBoingo: Of course, but even nice hoses abrade when movement happens.
BingoBoingo: Even the mega psi hot water hoses
asciilifeform: good luck.
BingoBoingo: AHA, but Orlov makes a point of NOT using that.
BingoBoingo: And hell PEX "hose" also likely would work.
asciilifeform: yes he has the weird hipster 'let's use only junkyard parts' thing going
asciilifeform: dun ask me.
asciilifeform: there is, imho, something there, old garden hoses are likely to remain available longer and wider than teflon
BingoBoingo: PEX is nice because you can supply every fixture from single manifold without fittings between manifold and fixture.
BingoBoingo: Old garden hoses though, especially the less common 3/4" are wear items even when situated in positions where wear seems unlikely.
asciilifeform: rodents eat pex.
BingoBoingo: How do rodents get on boat?
asciilifeform: and it dies in sunlight.
asciilifeform: i'll skip pex.
BingoBoingo: Yes, PEX has problems when not buried in wall.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: same way they get into every boat ever ?
asciilifeform: or house.
asciilifeform: pex really seems like one of those plastics specially-designed for american chumps, to annihilate the intrinsic advantages of using plastic
asciilifeform: so as to require frequent maintenance
BingoBoingo: But anyways Rigid copper is king because easy to work with
asciilifeform: easy on land
asciilifeform: where there is ample space to swing a torch
asciilifeform: and you are not surrounded with flammable decking
BingoBoingo: On boat you can have big bag of "sharkbites" and skip torch.
asciilifeform: lemme guess, equiv. of duct tape ?
jurov: duct tape everything!
BingoBoingo: sharkbites is this brass encased o-ring push to connect deal. rather handy
asciilifeform makes note to self not to buy boatz from BingoBoingo
BingoBoingo: those, tubing cutter, crescent wrench, channel locks, and emery cloth offers minimal space plumbing toolkit
BingoBoingo: Well when initially building boat do solder connections when you have the space to do so.
BingoBoingo: At sea cut pipe and sharkbite in new
BingoBoingo: tubing cutter that demands more than 1-1/2" swing radius sucks
asciilifeform: phun phakt: american (and probably other) ww2 subs had lathes on board.
BingoBoingo: Well how else do you thread pipe?
asciilifeform: http://www.gettyimages.com/pictures/an-image-of-a-metal-lathe-on-the-captured-german-u505-news-photo-181424737 << germany, also.
asciilifeform: quite likely, everyone.
asciilifeform: lel u.s. navy, 'During the past six months, our surveyors have uncovered a number of submarines not complying with a requirement for a chip shield on the lathe or drill press. To aid the fleet in a decision process for procuring a solution, I found three of numerous possible companies which supply equipment...'
asciilifeform: ( http://www.public.navy.mil/navsafecen/Documents/afloat/Submarines/FLASH/FLASH_2011/2011_Jul-Sep_Web.pdf )
BingoBoingo: Submarine without lathe is likely impossible
asciilifeform: https://ctmprojectsblog.wordpress.com/2014/09/12/hawaii-pearl-harbor-machine-shops << moar picturesque examples
asciilifeform: i should like to know what it was they typically cut.
asciilifeform: lengths of pipe, as per BingoBoingo, is one likely item, but this pointedly does not require a whole lathe
asciilifeform: (pipe cutter/threader would suffice)
asciilifeform: and certainly not a mill.
asciilifeform: doubt it was the only thing; consider how many spare fittings would fit in the machine shop hall.
asciilifeform: (in place of the toolz)
BingoBoingo: One can not imagine all possible fittings that might be required in underwater plumbing.
BingoBoingo: Also how does one make a valve with just a threader?
Framedragger: $s ipython
Framedragger: $s jupyter
Framedragger: wonder what tmsr thinks of ipython notebooks. basically you go to website and are presented with python interpreter, and a ready-made list of commands for graphing, doing stats etc. thinking of doing one of these for some initial ssh keyset analysis. nothing too serious at all
Framedragger: presumably said website would have the raw data as a module or somesuch
trinque: no one will stop you from using the tools you like. we've already got cl, python, perl, shell script, et al, floating around various places
ben_vulpes: people will bitch about ths js.
Framedragger: thought, maybe there's some elephant-in-the-room reason for avoiding it :p
trinque: well, python's a shitty language.
Framedragger: as a sworn lisper (well presumably) trinque, what do you make of haskell, out of curiosity?
trinque: plenty of that in the logs
trinque: $s from:asciilifeform haskell
a111: 18 results for "from:asciilifeform haskell", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aasciilifeform%20haskell
ben_vulpes: lol and even more in teh other logs
Framedragger: heh, thanks
ben_vulpes: binding arbitration
ben_vulpes: did that come from?
trinque: ben_vulpes' pastinator strikes again?
ben_vulpes: no, weechat
ben_vulpes: previous line in some other buffer or what?
ben_vulpes not involved in any sort of binding arbitration
Framedragger: ben_vulpes' subconscious is tapping into his tty
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: probably has better binding arbitrartion jokes than i in any case
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506153 << single-user computing in a wwwtron is braindamaged.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 20:09 Framedragger: wonder what tmsr thinks of ipython notebooks. basically you go to website and are presented with python interpreter, and a ready-made list of commands for graphing, doing stats etc. thinking of doing one of these for some initial ssh keyset analysis. nothing too serious at all
asciilifeform: picture 'sorry you can't use grep, www.grep.com is down'
asciilifeform: at any rate, the thing 'ipython', 'sage', etc. imitate, is 'mathematica', which is a close-source turd but at least it WORKS and WILL WORK FOREVER on my internet-less machine.
asciilifeform: i have a ~7 y.o. version, it runs fine.
deedbot: [Ossasepia] Cetatea Neamtului - http://www.dianacoman.com/2016/07/19/cetatea-neamtului/
phf: ipython is a handy python repl thing, but i think it was some people's first repl, so it turned into reinvention of clim presentations. problem is it's entirely useless without third party libraries for any kind of large scale data analysis, because core python is limited. where's the landscape of python scientific libraries is a constantly changing mess.
asciilifeform: i suffered the misfortune, at rupturefarms, of maintaining a 'sage' thing, it was agony
Joshua-I: afaik ipython has a similar api to a lot of stats / machine learning suites
asciilifeform: ~80% glue-with-c code by weight
asciilifeform: (because you gotta 'lapack' etc)
asciilifeform: heterogeneous computing is liquishit.
Joshua-I: I'm doing this program online that uses it. Gets the job done
asciilifeform: whereas sanity - is possible. (e.g., on lispm you could use a lisp data structure in a fortran proggy and vice-versa, with 0 glue.)
Joshua-I: I might not use it for more specific analysis tho
trinque: yes, and yet phuctor www is python
asciilifeform: trinque: on linux, no less
asciilifeform: trinque: it was made 'junkyard wars' style, out of readily-available crud.
asciilifeform: in, i should add, great haste.
trinque: sure, I'm not criticizing it
trinque: some things benefit from expediency and we as yet lack the republican computing platform
asciilifeform: there is plenty to criticize. but it had gone with 'sane engineering all the way down' you would be waiting for it still.
trinque: no quarrel here
phf: Joshua-I: i don't know what "same api" means, in this case. ipython is an enhanced ~repl~, but the code that you write with it constantly changes, because can't just load data set into a python array. need to use numpy, etc.
trinque: tbot here is perl, trb builder is either sh or Makefile
asciilifeform: phuctor in python ought to be seen in the same light as the bamboo stakes smeared in shit the vietnamese defended their country with
asciilifeform: not good weapon
asciilifeform: but it is what they had.
trinque: aha, so guy might as well do some work as long as he knows he is not making statements about how computing is to be done.
asciilifeform: (i will remind n00bs, also, that the part of phuctor which actually phuctors is a pure c proggy.)
trinque: that said wtf is wrong with the lisp repl for a "notebook"
asciilifeform: no graphics?
trinque: gabriel_laddel was supposed to be building just this
trinque: clim rather
phf: you look at ipython code now, read tutorials and you think to yourself "oh this makes sense, it is nice", but over the course of 5 years scientific computing with python went through 3 or 4 different suits. that's an unreasonable amount of cognitive overhead, considering that mathematica now supports all the same primitives that mathemaica in '95 did
asciilifeform: clim is a misery.
Joshua-I: trinque: he still is
Joshua-I: trinque: it's pretty impressive to see in person
asciilifeform: phf: aha!
trinque: I do not benefit from tales of secondhand wonder !!!1!!
Joshua-I: phf: eh I might be over abstracting because I tend to just jump from concept to api so I can get something done sooner rather than later
asciilifeform: * a111 has quit (Quit: ...) << phf ...?
phf: saw it
Joshua-I: Like some arbitrary mapping of math -> programming api
phf: Joshua-I: you make it sound like being sloppy with your tools is a good thing :)
Joshua-I: phf: it is if you want the goods
phf: Joshua-I: sure, that's why i use intellij for work, but i will not talk up the virtues of intellij like it's a good thing, which is what you're doing
phf: somehow the separation between the two is totally alien concept to a lot of people who run into tmsr machine. "i eat shit, therefore it's good for everyone". we too sometimes eat shit, but we have good sense to know that it might not be the best thing
Joshua-I: phf: ok? so what
Joshua-I: phf: it's not like consistency and rigor are foreign concepts to me just adding in some comments on the other side of the conversation
phf: Joshua-I: you didn't understand what i said, and i have neither interest nor time to explain myself
Joshua-I: phf: ok cool
trinque: $gettrust deedbot Joshua-I
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections.
Joshua-I: trinque: I'd advise seeing it for yourself as it may be the only way to convince you
Joshua-I: trinque: my powers are quite limited as you can see here
asciilifeform: phf: re python: in my view, if you EVER end up breaking a language in such a way that 20 y.o. code cannot run, not only was your lang broken to begin with, but YOUR HEAD was.
asciilifeform: and ought to be milking hogs, not designing systems
asciilifeform: but naturally crapolade built ~by~ and ~for~ disposable young cocklets, does not ~have~ a concept of '20 year old code i wish to run today'
jurov: is there any language capable of running 20yo code?
asciilifeform: common lisp.
asciilifeform: languages with MOTHERFUCKING ACTUAL STANDARDS
asciilifeform: and multi-vendor implementations.
asciilifeform: (yes most folks programmin' today have never seen, smelled, touched, such a thing.)
asciilifeform: forth, incidentally, also.
asciilifeform: (ansi) scheme.
asciilifeform: lel multivendor java?!
jurov: ibm ships own jvm, too
phf: pascal, less so than above languages, but still more so than even C, since it has a standard notion of pascal machine. C can do 20 year old code, but within some narrow scope of posix, or more like "unix"
jurov: re: common lisp - i'm curious, is there any 20y code still worthwhile to run now?
asciilifeform: jurov: yes. e.g., macsyma.
asciilifeform: parts of which pre-date common lisp and are almost half a century old.
asciilifeform: STILL unbeatable
asciilifeform: phf: c 'portability' is a laugh, considering the tight coupling with cpu
asciilifeform: (a good chunk of historic c succumbs to endianism, word size, etc. idiocy)
asciilifeform: even before you get to os/libs crapolade.
deedbot: [Qntra] US Department of "Defense" Switches To iPhone - http://qntra.net/2016/07/us-department-of-defense-switches-to-iphone/
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506248 << in past life, when i gave half a shit, EVERY single proggy i tried to run on ibm jvm, barfed.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 21:02 jurov: ibm ships own jvm, too
asciilifeform: there was NEVER a usable multivendorization of java.
asciilifeform: nor was it ever seriously 'cross-platform'
asciilifeform: nor was there ever a hard standard.
jurov: i dunno, i had a life as java developer, ibm jvm was superior on linux and ran both eclipse and our project fine
jurov: but we disgress, thanks for examples!
asciilifeform: well you wrote ~for~ it
asciilifeform: so yes, jurov's code ran on it, because written for it, mega-surprise.
asciilifeform: i was speaking of commercial proggies written for sun's.
jurov: lol i was the only dude on the team with the setup
jurov: since i was sysadmin hybrid
asciilifeform: was there a gui ?
jurov: everyone else was oracle+win
jurov: yes, there was a gui
asciilifeform: (iirc items with plain std i/o worked on all jvm)
asciilifeform: at any rate, the existence of even the POSSIBILITY of a program which ran on one, but not another, is what i was speaking of
asciilifeform: this is quite impossible in a properly-specified multivendor environment.
jurov: eh, i run into this with common lisp all the time
asciilifeform: 'Android would freeze unexpectedly, especially when trying to watch aerial feeds of unmanned drones, the source said.'
asciilifeform: jurov: this is because the standard was incomplete, and it is nearly impossible to write a program today wholly using only the standard.
asciilifeform: (it omitted, e.g., sockets)
asciilifeform: 'what if yer system doesn't have sockets'
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/oGZR6 << in other lulz. 'Marines Will Soon Need to Know How to Shoot a Moving Target, Because That Wasn't a Thing Before.'
jurov: well, after light usage i found bugs in core functionality in ecl, like it ignored *TRACE-OUTPUT*
asciilifeform: bugs - exist.
jurov: so i'm rather sceptical about whole affair
asciilifeform: sometimes even deliberate idiocies.
asciilifeform: iirc there were versions of allegro which ignored case sensitivity toggle.
asciilifeform: the unfortunate bit is that standards-compliance costs money.
asciilifeform: serious money.
asciilifeform: and it is not sufficient to ~have~ the money, you must also ~withhold~ it from the non-compliant vendors.
asciilifeform: (which is why microshit lusers pay and pay and still get 'embrace & extinguish' implementations of everything)
asciilifeform: if i go to a shop and buy a vacuum cleaner and the mains plug fits in NO socket, i will never buy from said vendor again.
asciilifeform: for whatever jwz reason, this is NOT how folks have been treating programming languages
asciilifeform: and so they get, what they get.
asciilifeform: (they get to, e.g., buy a million adapters from one broken misstandard to another)
asciilifeform: and a tall pile of things which MUST burn.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506175 << oh sure, i agree; but it may work for a limited case, as a quick thing; not as a proper stats platform or whatever, god forbid!
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 20:33 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506153 << single-user computing in a wwwtron is braindamaged.
jurov offers to asciilifeform classical vacuum cleaner with edison screw plug
asciilifeform: jurov saw such a thing?!
jurov: it was obsoleted
asciilifeform: i have edison screw light bulbs all over the house ?
jurov: it was *the* standard at some time
asciilifeform: for semi-permanent connections it is still unbeatable
asciilifeform: but i have never seen an applicance made with said plug.
asciilifeform: afaik it was only ever 'the' standard for lights.
asciilifeform: or, hm, apparently in usa toasters etc with light-bulb cones were once common.
jurov: i remember seeing electrical irons with it
asciilifeform: but regardless, jurov has no case here, because if i want to plug in such a toaster today, i can easily do so without spending so much as one extra penny.
asciilifeform: because the socket was ~not~ actually done away with.
mircea_popescu: $up Joshua-I
deedbot: Joshua-I voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: how was meatspace mircea_popescu ?
mircea_popescu: not bad. very nice spring here.
asciilifeform: winter is a month or so long ?
mircea_popescu: well, if you count it going to like 5 celsius ONE NIGHT and otherwise being a very balmy lower tens thing winter,
mircea_popescu: then it lasts approx march-jul
Joshua-I: Do you care for winter?
Joshua-I: So do you miss longer, colder winters?
mircea_popescu: looky, if i missed everything i cared for and don't currently have it'd be an endless funeral+wake over here.
asciilifeform: what, other than proper euro winter, did mircea_popescu not fit in his suitcase ?
mircea_popescu: it never rains in egypt. that was nice. not in suitcase. it never gets hot in northern transylvania. also. i dun have either bosphorus or golden horn. the list is long
mircea_popescu: every time i leave someplace there's a bunch of girly tears left behind, you know ?
asciilifeform: i've wondered on occasion why mircea_popescu did not settle among the turks.
mircea_popescu: why the turks specifically ?
asciilifeform: many positive things re the turks in mircea_popescu's works.
Joshua-I: How distant is it for you now?
asciilifeform: almost enough to make me contemplate.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not a bad place. of course, these days... Joshua-I sorry wut ?
mircea_popescu: but if one is going to live in a large human anthill, byzantium prolly a better choice than more modern atrocities.
Joshua-I: Just wondering if you still yearn at all for the winter
mircea_popescu: im not one for yearning!
mircea_popescu: (funny enough, winter in romanian is iarna ; reads almost exactly like english "yearn")
Joshua-I: I'm definitely projecting then :)
mircea_popescu: Joshua-I what's your favourite girl look like ?
asciilifeform misses one season - spring - which is about two weeks long here. defined as the season where one can go outdoors without either frost or mosquitoes
Joshua-I: I have broad taste in that area. Let me think on it a minute
mircea_popescu: by that criteria buenos aires spring is about 10 months long.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i guesses as much.
mircea_popescu: did you actually encounter a mosquito while here ?
asciilifeform: 1, i think, but it was not able to bite through my skin for some reason.
mircea_popescu: it is the strangest thing, i used to think mosquito is the sort of beast that either doesn't exist or else is abundant
asciilifeform: reminiscent of various yarns where 'cannot eat the alien food because wrong protein chirality'
mircea_popescu: but here somehow they exist and are rare.
asciilifeform: possibly they exist steadily in one particular spot in the city
asciilifeform: and diffuse out with great difficulty.
mircea_popescu: well yes, the subway.
mircea_popescu: but even there...
mircea_popescu: i imagined they must be spraying, but then again i never saw either flight or land crew doing in.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 17:46 asciilifeform: ( did mircea_popescu ever build that mega-toilet ??)
asciilifeform: i still picture it as looking like 'cray-II'
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505943 << it's likely fully automated sub could be had ; possibly for the cost of a decade or two of his life.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 17:50 mats: so, over or under ten?
mircea_popescu: i'm also certain it wouldn't be worth having ; but that's a different story.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505950 << most ships aren't intended to survive "winter" if your idea of "survive winter" is anything like http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VH9Oq9YArEk/TyAUen8cFaI/AAAAAAAABdU/QoPr6It9QQ4/s1600/IcebreakerYamal.jpg
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 17:54 asciilifeform: trinque: you will find that the machines are not designed for permanent life aboard, or to survive winters.
asciilifeform: well perhaps not arctic, but in the general case survive in 'die of hypothermia in half hour' water which fills a good chunk of the planet for much of the year
asciilifeform: this entails some insulation in the hull (orlov retrofitted ordinary boat with this, there are pics on his www) and a heat source.
mircea_popescu: if your idea of winter is "no ice floating", then most ships will survive such.
asciilifeform: well the fiberglass yacht he started with had troubles. hence the retrofit.
asciilifeform: (it had terrible problems with condensation)
mircea_popescu: funny. wood doesn't.
mircea_popescu: (yes, i'm pretty much convinced that IF you actually wanted to do what is here contemplated, a wooden structure is the best choice.)
asciilifeform: wood isn't much good for dives.
mircea_popescu: what dives ?!
asciilifeform: well in the sub variant.
mircea_popescu: oh nm.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505963 << you know 5 minutes of nature channel footage come distilled out of about two weeks of filming around.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 18:08 phf: i'd live on a sub, if it had those 1970s stage set rooms with giant windows through which you can observe underwater marine life, but which you can also close if you're being attacked by the establishment
mircea_popescu: the sea ain't what it usead to be.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505978 << well, technically the solution to your problem is "become a lich", and will be offered in eulora.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 18:11 asciilifeform: the problem i was futilely stabbing away at is 'how to be independent of homo homini lupus est'
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505981 << but this thing where "build in environment with large cost" is not a solution, because the enemy incurs the cost only when visiting whereas you incur the cost permanently. so this is, strategically, a nonstarter, whether the medium is mars or ocean or w/e.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 18:12 asciilifeform: there may be other solution.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it works against low-effort vermin.
asciilifeform: sorta like the answer to mice, rats, roaches, is to live where there is winter and turn off the heat on occasion.
mircea_popescu: i'm not gonna rehash the logic behind http://trilema.com/2014/so-the-dollar-vigilante-scam-ring-is-going-to-jail/ but the discussion of the merits of that project should prolly be read by any would-be sovereigns of this particular bent.
asciilifeform: granted it does not work if you're captain kidd and whole navy is after yer arse.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i have never heard of anyone practicing that solution nor would i think too much of their head tbh.
asciilifeform: probably because it is not achievable at present tech level.
asciilifeform: (or, at least, economically)
asciilifeform: i dun know of anybody camping out in orbit to save on rent either.
mircea_popescu: accepta-l pe gusti in viata ta!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505996 << for the record, these "pirate states" are much more proper states than hm, how shall we put this. anyone know the story of the barbarossa turkish fambly ?
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 18:24 phf: asciilifeform: it's a totally speculative exploration of north african pirate city states during the age of exploration http://hermetic.com/bey/pirate-utopias/ it might appeal to your romantic nature
asciilifeform: the one where 'why do you molest the seas ?'
mircea_popescu: no, no,
mircea_popescu: $google hayredin barbarossa
deedbot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayreddin_Barbarossa << Hayreddin Barbarossa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Hayreddin_Barbarossa << Hayreddin Barbarossa - Final Fantasy Wiki - Wikia | https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khairuddin_Barbarossa << Khairuddin Barbarossa - Wikipedia bahasa Indonesia, ensiklopedia ...
asciilifeform: ah him
pete_dushenski: barbarossa was ottoman's go-to guy on the seas ya ?
pete_dushenski: but was venetian iirc ?
mircea_popescu: spanish tried to attack him on land, etc a whole conundrum
asciilifeform: not the least bit venetian iirc
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski this fellow is original'\s younger brother nd no, they were ottomans.
mircea_popescu: well, lesbians, technically, but who's cuntin'.
mircea_popescu: anyway, point being they were "pirates" in the sense erdogan is "embattled". a matter of the foreign press and no more.
asciilifeform: noshit.jpg: who is 'pirate' and who is 'armed tax collector' is a pov question.
pete_dushenski: aha. barbs supplanted venetians (and i spanish) on the mediterranean... that's right.
mircea_popescu: that is one point ; the point im making however is that they weren't pirates in the sense you're not a penis. part of what they did, of fucking course, given the geography. but they were otherwise just as much a normal country as say albania.
asciilifeform: but yes barbarossa was the ottoman naval penis
asciilifeform: says ~as much on his tomb
mircea_popescu: the original - perhaps. the one im discussing here, very much a normal pasha. who happened to have a port in his lands.
pete_dushenski just received email with marketing photos from winnipeg architect with sha1 checksum(!). not sha512 but still highly unexpected.
asciilifeform: even modern-day somali pirates have a story about how they are merely collecting back-rent for usurped fishing rights.
mircea_popescu: to take the matter home, you could say nelson was a pirate rather than a lord ; or better yet that kelvin was a scientist rather than a lord. but these people principally did the thing in question ; whereas the african states principally did subsistence farming and small manufacture.
pete_dushenski: speaking of somali pirates, the recent 'captain philips' film with tom hanks was the most pallid agitprop in that direction
mircea_popescu: they weren't pirate states in the way florence or venice were.
pete_dushenski admittedly did not watch film, just remembers release
asciilifeform: per my (admittedly nonexpert) understanding, piracy is an artifact of abundant, unprotected merchant shipping, and tends to quickly get multiplied by 0 when it becomes a palpable problem
mircea_popescu: the other way to put it is that piracy is what happens when people who don't want to think about the sea decide to think themselves cooler than their neighbours who do like to think about the sea.
mircea_popescu: it's a fundamental mechanism of putting the inept but uppity in place.
asciilifeform: british, spanish, etc. 'thought about the sea' plenty
asciilifeform: but yes, it is a result of 'we Just Want To move cargo'
asciilifeform: 'cannon? what cannon'
mircea_popescu: "british" doesn't exist here. albion was a failed state bought wholesale by the dutch who then used it as naval stage base.
mircea_popescu: spanish did not. portuguese did, and they built an empire out of it.
mircea_popescu: but for the spanish, atlantic was "fly over zone", and as you say, they'd have loved to "separate it".
asciilifeform: i can see it.
mircea_popescu: symptomatically, the spanish solution was "make larger ship"
mircea_popescu: this is always what the idiot does in this situation.
asciilifeform: sorta why the largest, juiciest, wrecks to salvage even today...
asciilifeform: are spanish.
mircea_popescu: (obviously, king mircarlos the 5th would have simply ordered one man rowboats be made and sent every man in one to go to fucking galapagos and return. but then again...)
asciilifeform: i did wonder, as a boy, reading about such, what did these folks have instead of brains, that their answer to 'pirates sink 20%' was 'put Moar Silver on MEGA-BOAT'
mircea_popescu: they misperceived the sea, much like you do, much like people who don't sail generally, as a "empty" space.
mircea_popescu: in that context it's "logical".
asciilifeform: i never saw it as 'empty'
asciilifeform: but as 'fewer pirates than here on dry land'
mircea_popescu: dynamic equilibrium. wherever you take your bleeding husk, piranhas follow.
mircea_popescu: stop bleeding.
asciilifeform: elaborate ?
asciilifeform: i can see, possibly, that if mass of office plankton were somehow place in boats, yes, there would be harvesting thereof.
asciilifeform: but mass was not under contemplation.
mircea_popescu: if the sheep found a way to graze on rafts, the wolves would ride around in speedboats.
asciilifeform: this, yes.
asciilifeform: hence why i have 0 interest in 'mass konsooomerized houseboat' concept.
mircea_popescu: mass has ~nothing to do with it though. YOU are the target, personally. for as long as you're the sort that wants to be a king without a crown, there's going to be a preditor chasing you around.
asciilifeform: needs to be difficult, rare, and healthily dangerous.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not every tank contains pirannhas. consider the old american south
asciilifeform: poor whites lived ~wholly unmolested and untaxed by the rulers.
asciilifeform: because nobody needed them, or the land they occupied, for anything whatsoever.
mircea_popescu: you think every white man going there became the master of the what, indians ? negroes ?
asciilifeform: no, but master of own acre.
mircea_popescu: you have any idea how many white women lived their days as the junior slave in indian fambly, after their husband was dispatched ?
asciilifeform: (which was no good for cotton or tobacco, and ergo uninteresting to the powerz)
asciilifeform: we may be thinking of different periods.
mircea_popescu: looky : every time you find this imaginary space where thermodynamics doesn't apply, it's not that you've found a space where thermodynamics doesn't apply as much as you've deluded yourself in some manner to ignore some obvious wrinkle.
asciilifeform: ~0 indians in the geography in question after andrew jackson bugsprayed them.
asciilifeform: thermodynamics always applies. eventually.
asciilifeform: heat death etc.
mircea_popescu: i'm sorry, you're discussing a slice of time worth ~two decades ?
mircea_popescu: you do not see the problem with this ?
asciilifeform: should i ?
asciilifeform: may as well ask why i would consider a boat that 'only' can last for two decades.
mircea_popescu: let's restate. "i would be very comfortable in a chair that was built just like this collapsing assemblage between seconds 1.3 and 1.45 of the fall".
asciilifeform: seconds, sure. decades ? i dunno that i personally have two decades left.
mircea_popescu: jackson was president 30-38, civil war started 60. you gotta be shitting me.
asciilifeform: good things dun last.
mircea_popescu: things that dun last WEREN'T THINGS IN THE FIRST PLACE!
mircea_popescu: fucking definition of "figment of your imagination" : "that shit ain't gonna last"
asciilifeform: well then the only 'thing' is empty space. everything else (even proton may decay...) dun last.
mircea_popescu: the only thing is you outgrowing the silly shell.
asciilifeform: $s great slow kings
a111: 3 results for "great slow kings", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=great%20slow%20kings
asciilifeform: ^ oblig.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 18:39 jurov: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505520 << actually this might not be so bad idea. i.e. "internodal transport nomad"
diana_coman: heh, quite interesting the 2 decades thing in light of http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506234
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 20:57 asciilifeform: phf: re python: in my view, if you EVER end up breaking a language in such a way that 20 y.o. code cannot run, not only was your lang broken to begin with, but YOUR HEAD was.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506013 << now this, for sure. it's actually identified as "strategic threat", imagine that. "people communicating outside of our stick fingers! TERRORISM!!!"
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 18:55 asciilifeform: mats: and the pigfuckers certainly don't want you and i turning the wifi chip into mesh network etc.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman your hawk eye, m'lady!
mircea_popescu: imagine the sort of crack shot she is with a rifle.
asciilifeform: diana_coman, mircea_popescu : this is an interesting question, with a depressing answer - common lisp standard is nearing, arguably, it's 'lincoln war' moment, because the necessary general-purpose computer is growing thin on the ground.
asciilifeform: story interlude: i bought a ~35 y.o. cnc mill recently.
asciilifeform: replaced stepper motors with modern ones, using original screws
asciilifeform: ... fit perfectly.
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2016/sobieski-si-romanii/#comment-118140 << check it out, teh beauty of pingbacks.
asciilifeform: this kind of thing is ~entirely unremarkable to any literate person.
asciilifeform: but really it is quite a thing.
asciilifeform: the 20th c. stability thing, with its attendant luxuries, e.g., industrial standards, is likely a historic fluke.
asciilifeform: and needs a certain 'height of tower' which is unlikely to stick around for much longer imho.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno man, i one day visited prechristian syria, went to bed with woman, appendage fit perfectly.
mircea_popescu: vacuum seal & all!
asciilifeform: lel and i bet when you stabbed her angry husband, the blade also fit perfectly in the hole it made
asciilifeform: this kind of fit is not so hard.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman lol what a mess. a) wasn't built by teutons ; b) cantemir the elder was king, not stephen omfg.
diana_coman: I read it that that was precisely the point, lol
mircea_popescu: yeah lol.
mircea_popescu: pity cosbuc didn't write travestys and librettos for burlesque/revue.
mircea_popescu: "nu stim drumul, ca ne-am duce" ahahaha epic.
diana_coman: truth be told I did not realise it but it might be better to add to the notes probably, to make this clear
diana_coman: then again, how far does this clear thing go in the end
pete_dushenski: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601063/teslas-cheaper-model-3-could-strain-charging-infrastructure/ << more bad news for futurists sponsored by gov-decreed vizions.
pete_dushenski: "I typically pay $5 to $10 to charge up. Every single station has been, for years, mediocre to terrible. The stations are often broken due to software or hardware problems, and remain out of service for weeks. Competition among electric car drivers for these public charging stations is fierce and intensifying. It’s practically impossible for me to find an open charging station during the day."
pete_dushenski: sounds like a dream!
pete_dushenski: next thing you know an autonomous car will drive a trunkfull of c4 into the white house
mircea_popescu: new can of wasabi, dear god
mircea_popescu: it always gets me.
mats: ima pirate, arr
mats: i v much enjoy reading about the 'golden age of piracy'
mircea_popescu: any good shit ?
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 18:24 phf: asciilifeform: it's a totally speculative exploration of north african pirate city states during the age of exploration http://hermetic.com/bey/pirate-utopias/ it might appeal to your romantic nature
mats: oh wait, these are fictional huh
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2016/sobieski-si-romanii/#selection-693.0-709.26 << fyi italics start here and aren't closed so they continue throughout the remainder of the footnotes.
mats: anyway, other stuff includes 'Under the Black Flag' by Cordingly, Johnson's 'A General History of the Pyrates', and 'Empire of Blue Water' by Talty
mircea_popescu: diana_coman most likely plaesi, other side of mountain from piatra neamt.
mats: i put a bookmark in the last one and forgot to pick it up again, i'm now reminded to do so
mats: it deals with the v early period where Henry Morgan was busily sacking cities
mircea_popescu: a ty pete_dushenski
pete_dushenski: de nada
BingoBoingo wonders what Dr. Foreskin is up to these days
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506053 << the latest point being the important point.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 19:13 asciilifeform: cheap universal digital radio drives snooping costs to astronomical heights, and threatens to de-emphasize centralized telco antennae
pete_dushenski: another q for tmsr : any recommendations for linux-cpanel webhosts that don't roll over to social engineering attempts ?
mircea_popescu: for all the effort so far wasted into creating said antennae in bitcoin ; it'd be lulzy if they just lose the extant ones in telecom
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski maybe try thr cock.li fellow ?
mircea_popescu: vc <
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506058 << dominatrix getting tied up ? wtf is this nonsense anyway.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 19:15 pete_dushenski: "“I am looking to weed out police and crazies,” she said. She estimates that only one in four potential customers ultimately passes. Those who do win some time with a professional escort/dominatrix, but it comes at a hefty price: Each hour can cost up to $800, and Rita’s cut is 30%." << steep!
pete_dushenski: ;;seen vc
gribble: vc was last seen in #trilema 5 weeks, 2 days, 4 hours, 45 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <vc> Framedragger: I'm cool with port scans, neither me nor my parent host cares
pete_dushenski: has anyone here used cock.li ? please to share experience if so
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506127 << lol. he sounds like the man to build an ark tho.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 19:49 asciilifeform makes note to self not to buy boatz from BingoBoingo
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 20:09 Framedragger: wonder what tmsr thinks of ipython notebooks. basically you go to website and are presented with python interpreter, and a ready-made list of commands for graphing, doing stats etc. thinking of doing one of these for some initial ssh keyset analysis. nothing too serious at all
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: What is an ark but a boat that is actually plumbed and wired like a structure and not some duct taped sea gypsy trailer?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506210 << i have no idea why "scientific computing" on the c machine would use anything but c slowly mutating into asm, but then again that's me.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 20:44 phf: you look at ipython code now, read tutorials and you think to yourself "oh this makes sense, it is nice", but over the course of 5 years scientific computing with python went through 3 or 4 different suits. that's an unreasonable amount of cognitive overhead, considering that mathematica now supports all the same primitives that mathemaica in '95 did
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo quite exactly ; spoken like a true noah.
BingoBoingo: 40 PSI to the showerhead or bust!
BingoBoingo: like most hoses would eventually
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506249 << 20 year only takes us to 96, which isn't really that far behind. i'd wager about 50% of c code currently doing anything useful was written in the 90s.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 21:03 phf: pascal, less so than above languages, but still more so than even C, since it has a standard notion of pascal machine. C can do 20 year old code, but within some narrow scope of posix, or more like "unix"
BingoBoingo: Anyways the best land ark is probably going to be one of the many urban brick former Roman Catholic churches on the real estate market. Amenable to fortification.
BingoBoingo: Also walled courtyard
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506550 << slow scripting langs are used for non-speedcritical portions for the same reason the ~entire program~ is not in asm.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 23:42 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506210 << i have no idea why "scientific computing" on the c machine would use anything but c slowly mutating into asm, but then again that's me.
asciilifeform: likewise 'scientific computing' is many things to many people - it is not always 'trillion long divisions before tuesday'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506555 << this is not only accurate, but it is closer to 90% in my experience than 50.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 23:45 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506249 << 20 year only takes us to 96, which isn't really that far behind. i'd wager about 50% of c code currently doing anything useful was written in the 90s.
mircea_popescu: but the coupla projects of scientific computing i observed, the phases were readily distinguishable : 1. people are excited, they loudly choose "best" hot new stuff, pass along napkin sketches ; 2. the super-duper shit runs into more wrinkles than it's worth, kids are all depresed. at this point the project either dies or management intervenes, gets wizard, wizard takes a weeklong look at it, decides "on the basis of consider
mircea_popescu: ations etc" c is the right tool. strangely, the matter is always considered properly and in context, yet the result always the same.
asciilifeform: if you subtract obvious drepperisms, 'comment commits' by genderfucks, etc. - you end up with circa-'90s mass every time.
mircea_popescu: at this point, project either delivers and is done or takes on life of own. if takes on life, then 3. more wizards are added, they slowly asm-ify the loops, inside out.
mircea_popescu: ten-ish years in the thing's about 1/3 push pop ret
asciilifeform: this was egregiously true in '90s game console market.
mircea_popescu: also , yes. gaming console really very much like science.
asciilifeform: (which is not 'scientific' in the usual sense but plenty of tight physics code)
mircea_popescu: exactly. not "scientific" but now do all this maths.
asciilifeform: my brother spent most of the '90s hand-massaging the 3dtronz.
asciilifeform: sega, in particular, shipped some mighty weird hardware.
mircea_popescu recalls reading a twenty five line of ret once, throwing hands up, leaving the matter to others.
asciilifeform: lel that does not sound like a trick of the competent
asciilifeform: but a fudge of the inept
asciilifeform: something like a nop sled in reverse
mircea_popescu: figuring out which was the case was not something i wanted to get involved in.
asciilifeform: 'i have no idea where i will land so i wanna ret'
mircea_popescu: "probably stupid, possibly not, and we're dealing with highly selected folks. fuck."
asciilifeform: there are machines where ret (or similar) takes an operand, and you can make a jump table that way
mircea_popescu: well yes. ret <number>
asciilifeform: e.g., pic16xxx
asciilifeform: (in fact retlw is the ~only~ way to refer to data in rom on that machine)
mircea_popescu: iirc ret 2 just moves stack pointer 2 words.
asciilifeform: on pc aha
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506537 << if i want to send a packet to my next door neighbour, and it has to go through a station 3km away, it is idiocy
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 23:31 mircea_popescu: for all the effort so far wasted into creating said antennae in bitcoin ; it'd be lulzy if they just lose the extant ones in telecom
asciilifeform: and yet this is what we have on 100% of planet.
asciilifeform: (with possible exception of '90s romania)
mircea_popescu: ~nobody wants to send packet to next door neigbour
mircea_popescu: on average distance is, iirc, to the tune of 1k miles.
asciilifeform: aaaactually i send quite a few packetz a few km back'n'forth.
asciilifeform: and have, for decades.
mircea_popescu: sure, and your neighbour sends them to china. aaanyway.
asciilifeform: merely pointing out that the centralized chokepoints are not physically necessary.
asciilifeform: and that the star topology of telecom - is enforced.
asciilifeform: rather than naturally occuring.
asciilifeform: in the case of 'sheeple' tuning in to bbc/fox noose/etc. -- doubtlessly MORE expensive.
asciilifeform: so there is ~0 financial pressure in that direction.
mircea_popescu: well, comparisons are comparisons. take today's internet, gendankenexperiment as mesh, measure.
asciilifeform: today's internet - 'madness'. 1990 internet - nearly ~was~ a mesh.
asciilifeform: just not radio.
asciilifeform: but i for one have 0 interest in preserving the 'internet is a cheaper way to broadcast bbc' thing.
asciilifeform: those folks ought to be watching tv.
mircea_popescu: so how are people going to read trilema ?
asciilifeform: via gossipd.
asciilifeform: which incidentally is also how they will know that they are in fact reading trilema.
asciilifeform: and not usgilema.
asciilifeform: (at present time they have no such assurance)
mircea_popescu: ya well.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506536 << pray tell pete_dushenski , for what do you need the cpanel abortion ?
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 23:31 pete_dushenski: another q for tmsr : any recommendations for linux-cpanel webhosts that don't roll over to social engineering attempts ?
asciilifeform: i tried to use it once, it reminded me of those keyboards they widely sold to 'INTERNET!1111' lusers of the '90s, with 'pizza' and 'beer order' buttons
asciilifeform: 'press for mooosik store'
asciilifeform: 'press for lolcat'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506517 << usg has been maniacally afraid of this kind of thing for decades, to the point that not only wh, but semi-abandoned army reserve shithole not far from where i live, is surrounded by 'bollard' barriers, spikes, etc.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 23:14 pete_dushenski: next thing you know an autonomous car will drive a trunkfull of c4 into the white house
asciilifeform: or see pictures of a u.s. embassy build in past 20y, just about anywhere.
asciilifeform: same idea.
asciilifeform: they ~know~ that they are a blight, and that folks will try to deal with'em.
asciilifeform: in whatever way their piddling orc tech permits.
asciilifeform: the bollard is ~quintessentially~ american, in my mind, the way the onion dome is ~quintessentially~ russian in typical anglo head.
mircea_popescu: anyway, garden hose not even a bad idea for the intended junkyard flatbottom. exactly for reason of "people throw out a mile of punctured once garden hose"
mircea_popescu: i cut mine, but then again i was the only one on the street.
asciilifeform: mine's got what must be metres of tape on it.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: cpanel is useful for lazy idjits like me to ban ips, make back-ups, check traffic figs, and so on and so forth. it might not be lynx-friendly but i'm also unpersuaded that it's 'evil that must burn tonight'.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: America's love of Bollards is a British import.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: it makes for an exceedingly painful time doing anything for which there is not a ready button.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: it'll be interesting to see what lengths usg will go to stop trunkfull of c4 in... quadcopter. straps lazer cannons to top of bollard perhaps.
mats: thats stupid
mats: why not mortar?
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: quadcopter that can lift so much as a frag, is rarity.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: esp. if you want any kind of range.
pete_dushenski: ya, 10lbs seems to be about tops for quadcopter payload eh
asciilifeform: (if one were to blow up today, the circle in which police would know to look for the operator, is not large.)
mats: 'dji phantom 4' can barely lift 1.8kg
mats: will fall over in a reasonable wind
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: if working remotely from car, that circle expands considerably. and quickly.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: remotely over what ?
asciilifeform: own satellite ?
pete_dushenski: mats: see kittyhawk
mats: and the thing costs ~1k
asciilifeform: has pete_dushenski flown even a toy quadcopter? any idea of the kind of 'ping time' you need to actually keep the thing upright ?
pete_dushenski: mats: $4.5k for that one.
mats: 1.8kg of c4 is a decent payload, yes, but again why not mortar?
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: /me has not. friends have plently.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: get thee to a toy store
mats: flight time isn't going to be more than 4-5 mins, if you're lucky
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: or friend's house!
a111: Logged on 2016-07-20 00:19 asciilifeform: (if one were to blow up today, the circle in which police would know to look for the operator, is not large.)
pete_dushenski: speaking of other shit that sounds more practical than it is, http://www.gizmag.com/golf-cart-jetpack/44413/
asciilifeform: cheap unmanned guyfawkestrons are nothing new, consider http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov6/15.html , written in late '70s.
asciilifeform: 'On 12 August, at 0558 local time, a van comes to a halt on the vast empty parking lot in front of a supermarket in Washington. Three men open the doors of the van, roll out the fuselage of a light aircraft and attach its wings. A minute later its motor bursts into life. The plane takes off and disappears into the sky. It has no pilot. It is controlled by radio with the aid of very simple instruments, only slightly more complicated t
asciilifeform: han those used by model aircraft enthusiasts. The plane climbs to about 200 metres and immediately begins to descend in the direction of the White House. A minute later a mighty explosion shakes the capital of the United States. The screaming of sirens on police cars, fire engines and ambulances fills the city.'
asciilifeform: no high tech involved.
asciilifeform: if anyone genuinely cared, these would be a regular thing already.
asciilifeform: like car bombs were in ireland.
mats: use the ol' taliban trick. emplace mortar tube, rig with dry ice mechanism that fires when it dissipates enough so you're not around to get hosed by arty fire guided by a 'Boomerang' fire locator
asciilifeform: the irish had an interesting mortar, made wholly from old compressed gas bottles
asciilifeform: also self-timed.
asciilifeform: it is an old field, worked to death.
mats: fwiw, i hear the boomerang is shit in the field
mats: folks turn em off, usually, because of false positives
asciilifeform: mats: even baltimore police dept. uses similar item.
asciilifeform: it is cheap.
mats: and orcs pop off rounds for virtually any reason anyway, so why bother
asciilifeform: they have'em permanently mounted on light poles.
mats: pete_dushenski has a few things to learn about insurgency
asciilifeform: vendor's www: 'Boomerang pinpoints the shooter’s location of incoming small arms fire. Boomerang uses passive acoustic detection and computer-based signal processing to locate a shooter in less than a second.'
asciilifeform: 30 m ?!!
asciilifeform: worse than i thought, even.
mats: quadcopter is just ludicrously expensive to use for payload delivery unfortunately
asciilifeform: mats: fighters in donbass are using toy choppers to deliver frags, with mixed results
mats: and can be owned over the air if they're not autonomous
asciilifeform: aha, or simply jammed
mats: betcha WH has jammers that'll force your toy into wutever preprogrammed path you had
asciilifeform: incidentally you can detect a convoy of usg brass from miles away by the loud jammers.
asciilifeform: no prizes what this suggests to folks building usg-seeking machinery.
asciilifeform: incidentally http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-20#1506685 is another reason behind http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506052
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 19:12 asciilifeform: at any rate, don't expect usg to surrender in their war against general-purpose radio.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-20 00:29 mats: betcha WH has jammers that'll force your toy into wutever preprogrammed path you had
mats: i don't remember the name of the system, but i think there is integration between 'paladin' arty and 'boomerang'
asciilifeform: i will note that usg ~is~ sufficiently frightened of toy flying machines, that they were entirely banned in washington d.c.
asciilifeform: and even surrounding towns
asciilifeform: there is an ongoing lawsuit re the legality of said ban (it was administrative, rather than act of congress), if diametric is awake he might clarify
asciilifeform: but meanwhile - ban
mats: have heard some tales about amateur insurgents getting stomped ~2s after launching mortar
asciilifeform: there are even street signs, with crossed-out toy chopper.
mats: because 'paladin' immediately returns fire. squish.
asciilifeform: mats: this is sorta the appeal of munitions that don't travel in straight lines or simple parabola or whatever other geometric figure
asciilifeform: e.g., toy flyers.
mats: kinda neat. /wants his own automated orc stomping sentry gun
asciilifeform: picture a frag that, launched, spends a week or so hopping between treetops until it is told (via whatever custom radio) that your position is nearby, at which point it simply falls on you.
asciilifeform: or it simply finds you based on the jammer output.
asciilifeform: or, in a city, a mine could spend years or decades buried in pavement, waiting for 'customer'
asciilifeform: plenty of possibilities with modern tech.
mats: sounds over-engineered
asciilifeform: depends on who is trying to do in whom, neh ?
asciilifeform: is icbm also 'overengineered' ?
mats: following jammer doesn't enable maximum casualties
asciilifeform: in the contemplated picture, you need precisely 1 casualty.
mats: you gonna bomb their transmitter?
asciilifeform: iirc the recent custom is to have one in ~every truck.
mats: they're usually located on top of the vehicle, so thats better than e.g. manhole cover but not by a lot
asciilifeform: not even necessary to explode, there are other uses, to the opponent, for knowing exactly where the convoy is
mats: i wonder if usg limos have v-hull
asciilifeform: the one commonly seen, does not.
mats: well i'm much enjoying going through the mental exercise of attacking a convoy
asciilifeform: usg brass are quite well defended against the expected adversary: plebes with pea shooters, bricks, etc.
asciilifeform: folks with actual resources do not go around hunting'em for the same reason the typical hunter does not go to shoot the lion in the zoo.
asciilifeform: or, more presely, cow in the farm.
asciilifeform: the cow is already where the farmer wants it.
mats: if it was easy, folks would go there instead of massacring cinemagoers
asciilifeform: so it is kept just short of easy.
asciilifeform: contrary to popular belief, not very much is spent on it.
asciilifeform: if the monkey dies, what will happen ? he will be replaced with identical monkey.
asciilifeform: there is no shortage of monkeys in the trees.
asciilifeform: the actual function of the black limos, ss jeeps, etc. is roughly same as roman lictors:
asciilifeform: to showcase the dominance of the throne
asciilifeform: which is why they kick folks out of restaurants when dick cheney or his latest incarnation drives by, etc.
asciilifeform: nothing to do with mad bomberz.
asciilifeform: everything to do with transfixed slack-jawed sheeple aaahing over the 'majesty'
asciilifeform: fact is, there ARE NO phreeedom phighterz in usaschwitz. which is why they conscript the occasional illiterate orc immigrant to play 't3rr0r111st!111' on tv.
asciilifeform: folks raised without a warm place to shit, much less trust fund, with ~correct picture of self-worth and ready to meet with allah at age 17, are a natural resource like any other. and it simply does not grow in north america.
mats: thats not true at all
mats: there are many domestic terrorists living out a sentence in a fed clink
asciilifeform: see the part with 'played on tv'
asciilifeform: the new york death ray fella, being the prime example.
mats: lots in florence, co, and terra haute, in
asciilifeform: he, and a few hundred similar great artistes, are in the clinks.
asciilifeform: their production is one of the missions of the 'national security' industry.
asciilifeform: $s new york death ray
a111: 15 results for "new york death ray", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=new%20york%20death%20ray
mats: i dunno whats with you and arbitrarily removing agency from wutevers in discussion
asciilifeform: imbeciles who cannot spell own name, or describe what kind of ray they will supposedly shoot from the raygun that nice totally-not-fbi-provocateur sold them in back alley, are not agents.
asciilifeform: they have no agency
mats: its fundamentally unknowable, sure, how many gru assets are in a clink, yes
asciilifeform: any more than a sea slug has.
asciilifeform: mats: i know of at least 1, he was traded recently, name escapes me
asciilifeform: was betrayed by typical 1990s 'colonel with apartment in florida'
mats: theres a lot more convicted artistes in us than cuba
asciilifeform: more than in zimbabwe also, what of it ?
mats: ~500 iirc
mats: i'm specifically referring to folks interned at gitmo
asciilifeform: last i heard gitmo was a warehouse for inconvenient pow, rather than domestic whatevers.
asciilifeform: (though i have fundamentally nfi who is ACTUALLY kept there, for all i know it is folks who used pgp key that had too many bitz)
mats: not sure exactly how it gets decided, but flip side, Zacarias Moussaoui is serving his sentence in florence rather than gitmo
asciilifeform: possibly because was picked up in usa ?
asciilifeform: or do i have him mixed with another
mats: yes, they found him with 747 manuals
mats: tsarnaev and reid are also at florence
asciilifeform: if he had been found in afghan, would have been shot on the cheap, but instead was used as feedstock for the quite important 'we caught a domestic вредитель !1111' ritual.
asciilifeform: the key here is that these folk dun occur naturally in the necessary numbers. hence, they are created.
a111: Logged on 2014-04-13 22:27 asciilifeform: the 'a) wanna buy strela? b) fuck off c) really, dontcha? b) ok sure c) off to jail' thing has been going so long that it doesn't even make national news every time now.
asciilifeform: provocateurs are dirt-cheap. we even had one here, http://btcbase.org/log/2015-12-08#1338891
a111: Logged on 2015-12-08 15:31 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-12-2015#1338844 << every word of this is applicable in its entirety to modern stoolies and provocateurs, e.g., 'the_scourge' from last year
mats: not sure i agree. there's a massacre every day of the year now
asciilifeform: ^ the_scourge tried to get ~me~ interested in 'military resistance to usg'
asciilifeform: along with boatload of shit crypto
mats: oh, i apologize for bringing him in here then
asciilifeform: i do wonder where you found him.
mats: random guy in a chan i idle in
asciilifeform: must be great place.
asciilifeform: has he tried to sell you a death ray yet ?
mats: haven't seen the nick in a few years, i tried my hand at bringing folks into the fold, didn't work out
asciilifeform: the thing that i found shocking was... the sheer ham-fistedness.
asciilifeform: if i were his handler, and read, as i would read, the log, i would have sacked him.
asciilifeform: demoted, to junior dogcatcher.
mats: we had some pms but they are so utterly unremarkable idk what was even said
asciilifeform: ditto ninjashitgun.
asciilifeform: and buncha other dopes whose names escape me.
asciilifeform: same snore every time.
mats: i really gotta stop deleting my pm archives
mats: ninjashogun tried some shenanigans also
asciilifeform: he was entertainingly stupid, but only from the (to me) novelty
mats: and whined to me about having his good naem tarnished on hacka nyooz
asciilifeform: entertaining-stupid is a self-limiting thing. eventually it turns into simply stupid.
asciilifeform: it was a very strange experience, like having a contract killer sent for you who worked his whole life in a slaughterhouse and literally expects you to behave EXACTLY like cow, to simply walk up to where he has the ~stationary~ stun hammer
asciilifeform: and get indignant and flustered if you for some reason do not.
mats: i get the sense that he was really just out to make money, to sucker an engineer into slaving for him
asciilifeform: the choice of subject matter, in that case, was quite peculiar.
mats: just one of 1,000 dummies i've met from the valley
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-20#1506653 << well, he didn't live in israel, i guess. anyway, mats has it, mortar is by far the cheapest.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-20 00:21 mats: 1.8kg of c4 is a decent payload, yes, but again why not mortar?
mircea_popescu: no good answer to it, either.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-20 00:24 asciilifeform: like car bombs were in ireland.
asciilifeform: iraq not a nation either
asciilifeform: but did ok.
asciilifeform: with respect to irishing.
mats: don't remember if i mentioned this, but a friend of mine that works at cisco says their calea team is expanding the scope of their work beyond what's in the letter of the law
mats: thought that was interesting.
asciilifeform: mats: the 'letter of the law' was interpreted as 'anally inspect every arse on planet' for decades now.
asciilifeform: so not nyooz.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-20#1506682 << ~the only use for the thing is to get it into the airvent of something.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-20 00:28 asciilifeform: mats: fighters in donbass are using toy choppers to deliver frags, with mixed results
asciilifeform: consider the act for which, supposedly, nixon was deposed. can you picture president impeached for tapping phones today ?
mircea_popescu: well, the-woman-that-won't-make-it walked from very similar to nixon's case, so...
mats: there were several charges involved
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-20#1506693 << this is more a case of independent powerful career woman hear me roar being petrified someone cares enough to photograph her in the shower.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-20 00:34 asciilifeform: i will note that usg ~is~ sufficiently frightened of toy flying machines, that they were entirely banned in washington d.c.
mircea_popescu: this is just about the most self-flattering nonsense ever, but hey.
asciilifeform: it is a theatrical number, intended to goad would-be 'shoe bomb hopefuls' to the dead end of flying toys from toystore
asciilifeform: 'the treasure is where they put the 'treasure!' sign' -- ~every imbecile ever
asciilifeform: mats: http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/johnson/rnimparticles.htm << which of these is the current monkey not guilty of ?
asciilifeform: or the last one ?
asciilifeform: or the one prior ?
mats: afaik bush and obama didn't go so far as to send thieves into rnc hq
asciilifeform: they didn't need to.
asciilifeform: why send thief, when you have key logs, audio, whatever.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-20#1506724 << this is kinda dubious. note that people light up gay bars and cineplexes rather than geriatric homes, etc. if they actually wanted maximal body count they'd do the local hospital, but they're not exactly being rational.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-20 00:47 mats: if it was easy, folks would go there instead of massacring cinemagoers
asciilifeform: nobody optimized for bodies, or they would torch crowded clubs etc.
mircea_popescu: not even clear wtf they're optimizing for.
asciilifeform: for playing out a script helpfully written for them by their masters.
asciilifeform: that involves, e.g., ~random fire from small-caliber pea shooters, rather than, say, blown bridges
asciilifeform: for details see tlp.
asciilifeform: supposing he had not snipped his articles re same.
asciilifeform: (i have not recently checked.)
mats: https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lLqHi2f7Ti8/V4bBCyl-P_I/AAAAAAAAoLk/juwG59mwZ10mIyHd_OBOhLwQVBt44VkPwCLcB/s1600/EmployRecessionJun2016.PNG interesting
mircea_popescu: mats if that figure wasn't coming straight out of an ass, the table might be more interesting.
mircea_popescu: but as it is, entirely meaningless to put those on same map, they're not in any sense the same thing
asciilifeform: mats: usg 'employment' figures make 'climate science' look honest.
asciilifeform: they have ~0 connection to reality.
mats: beyond the confusion of unemployed and folks who've given up - can you elaborate?
mircea_popescu: i suppose look into how the data is defined and collected one day when run out of other online entertainment.
mircea_popescu: nowadays "unemployed" = "number of people who jump through X Y and Z hoops more recently than 2 weeks ago and for not a longer total interval than 11 weeks , and also who aren't in any of these 58 excluded categories. such as "white"."
asciilifeform: mats: one obvious example - a great many folks never figure in the score at all, because they are 'contractor'
mircea_popescu: im exagerating, but not by so very much.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform also "disabled"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is approximately correct.
asciilifeform: quite likely not 1 in 10 laid off folk, ever appear in the 'unemployed' column.
asciilifeform: for any length of time whatsoever.
asciilifeform: in entire life.
asciilifeform: old folks, for instance, forced into an early 'catfood diet' retirement, do not
asciilifeform: because their count as 'retiree'
asciilifeform: when kicked out for being 65 y.o.
mircea_popescu: to obtain correct unemployment figure in these circumstances, do (count of all tax returns paying more than 0.4 * 10.5 * 8 * 320 in tax) / (us population as per census).
mircea_popescu: you'll get a shocking 40%ish which happens to also be correct.
mircea_popescu: the majority of the us population is not currently employed ; nor has any prospects of ever being employed.
asciilifeform: lafonde's 'dindus', unsurprisingly, also do not count as 'unemployed'
asciilifeform: perhaps half of that number ever had so much a ~thought~ of being employed.
mats: what are these? 0.4 * 10.5 * 8 * 320
BingoBoingo: $s the_scourge
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the choicest lulz were in pm
asciilifeform: as with the earlier ninjaimbecile