Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2016-06-30 | 2016-07-02 →
deedbot hands you a broomstick.
trinque: I'm over here pulling at his guts
trinque: I'll put that in
trinque: BingoBoingo: is that the one from earlier?
trinque: already went, but my node doesn't see it yet for some reason
trinque: node's like 20 blocks behind because reasons
deedbot: accepted: 1
trinque: fxd
deedbot: accepted: 1
trinque: $help
trinque: ^ updated with $deed
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 05:35 trinque: ^ updated with $deed
mircea_popescu: $up DaoSancho
deedbot: DaoSancho voiced for 30 minutes.
shinohai: Morning Senor Popescu how goes it?
shinohai: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 678.33, vol: 7829.46519718 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 662.014, vol: 10617.98838 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 679.93, vol: 46887.39888891 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 675.0, vol: 1.096 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 681.493448, vol: 43281.03350000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 680.0, vol: 2388.00600844 | Volume-weighted last average: 678.714472444
mircea_popescu: not bad!
mircea_popescu: how about yourself ?
shinohai: Nice here, having some tea and watching sunrise.
shinohai: I need to go out to store before all the 4th-of-July derps clog up the roads.
mircea_popescu: im having rum and watching butts rise. altogether a wash!
shinohai: Rum sounds like an excellent idea, may pick up a bottle later.
mircea_popescu: havana club or no deal!
thestringpuller: shinohai: no work for you today?
thestringpuller: also shinohai how can you stand driving in your area? I was there during rush hour last night and think I had a minor stroke.
shinohai: thestringpuller: I don't have a job other than trb/Qntra
shinohai: Don't drive either, I use taxis :D
thestringpuller: MUST BE NICE
shinohai: You too can sit at home all day if you allow an undocumented worker hit you with a forklift!
shinohai: mircea_popescu: Which one are you drinking? I see like 7 types of Havana club for sale.
shinohai: Añejo Especial looks yummy.
thestringpuller: Oh wow! Sorry to hear that happened :( At least you can work on real stuff now? (Brighter side of darkness?)
shinohai: There are worse fates.
mircea_popescu: anejo 7yo prolly best.
mircea_popescu: motherfucker.
mircea_popescu: in which we find nano ignores the r / -fill= switch
mircea_popescu: BECAUSE WHY THE FUCKNO
thestringpuller: you're using nano?
mircea_popescu: evidently
thestringpuller: i always figured you'd use emacs.
shinohai: He uses nah-no
mircea_popescu: i also use vi!
mircea_popescu: and sometimes i actually edit files straight from bash.
shinohai adores vi
shinohai: I dislike nano because I like having line #'s displayed
mircea_popescu: doing some research in the bowels of trilema i fell upon "So to sum up : the average number of black people on the Internet is, on average, about 15% lower than the average numer of black people on the Internet as far as we can see - and it's probably even worse as far as we can't see."
mircea_popescu: truly web measures are a measure of wonder.
mircea_popescu: shinohai yeah, i don't always care. i like nano when it's a simple matter of "i know what i'm looking for, but approximately, so it's easier to ctrl-w and look at context than to grep string"
mircea_popescu: and ctrl-c will give you position, which in my head beats line count.
shinohai: cat -n :D
mircea_popescu: yeah i guess.
shinohai: lol Shaun Bridges possibly stole even more Bitcoin than the feebs originally stated.
deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 177065872435 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'Jonata Jose da Silva (Seguranca) <>; ' -
shinohai: John McAfee to start a hydroelectric Bitcoin mining operation, becomes target of Chinese mining cartels.
mircea_popescu: was this in normal time ?
shinohai: I wonder what happened to his "blockchain sekoority" venture.
mircea_popescu: he prolly had breakfast and forgot all about it.
mircea_popescu: very common occurence in senior citizen homes.
mircea_popescu: also happens when they cross thresholds.
mircea_popescu: which is why the sub-normals end up gathered around doorways. they approach a threshold, get all panicked, stop. then eventually they cross it, at which point - mindblank.
mircea_popescu: most idiots take 15 minutes to clear two feet if you put any sort of arch, gate or door there.
mircea_popescu: whoa asciilifeform that's A NEW ONE
mircea_popescu: 5 * 17 * 11353 * 183487
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: flipolade.
asciilifeform: like the last dozen or so.
mircea_popescu: new flipolade tho ?>
asciilifeform: 'According to an affidavit unsealed Thursday, the Justice Department learned in April 2015 that Bridges might have kept a private cryptographic key giving him access to a bitcoin wallet with the $700,000 in currency that the Silk Road task force had seized in 2014. The department urged the agency to move the funds elsewhere. “Unfortunately, the U.S. Secret Service did not do so and the funds were thereafter stolen, something the U.
asciilifeform: S. Secret Service only discovered once it was ordered by a court to pay a portion of the seizure back to affected claimants,”...' << gold
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 15:46 mircea_popescu: it's why nsa fails so badly. all their budget goes to filling the barn, ~none to guarding the barn.
phf: “A judge in Virginia rules that people should have no expectation of privacy on their home PCs because no connected computer "is immune from invasion."”
mircea_popescu: i'm sorry, was he hearing a rape case ?
mircea_popescu: "females should have no expectation of control over the usage of their girly bits, because well.... oooobviously".
mircea_popescu: if she's old enough to walk, she's not imune from ravishment, amirite.
asciilifeform: phf: last week's nyooz
phf: $s judge Virginia privacy
a111: 2 results for "judge Virginia privacy",
phf: huh!
deedbot: [Trilema] Reddit, the derpage of the Internet -
mircea_popescu: hmm seems it decided to skip one
mircea_popescu: anyway jurov shares added.
shinohai: mircea_popescu, this may be one of my favourite Trilema posts evah.
mircea_popescu: o, really ?!
shinohai: lulzy. Much better than trolling x user with a downvote script.
mircea_popescu: well, spread the word lol.
shinohai likes the crafty, rum-swigging mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: *thumbsup*
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: l0l! what's the signature of ?
mircea_popescu: (note also you have no proof it was me! because the signature doesn't check out!)
asciilifeform: ^ this has got to be near-critical mass or sumthing
asciilifeform: slotin holding them hemispheres apart with cock.
mircea_popescu: woman is a superbly engineered piece of machinery ; can take incredible amts of abuse
asciilifeform: i meant the cockz
asciilifeform: they are packed rather tightly.
asciilifeform: any tighter and they fuse.
mircea_popescu: fusecock!
asciilifeform: cuckfusion.
phf: that's an oglaf strip right there
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what's the use of spamming reddit ?
shinohai: I dunno what mp's answer is, but FOR THE LULZ!
mircea_popescu: we can't be spammed. web-anything "social media" or whatever you call the bullshit - can. this advantage must be a) kept sharp and b) driven through.
asciilifeform: ah hm now i recall mircea_popescu had a piece about spamming derps to death
mircea_popescu: diana_coman hanbot trinque phf bingoboingo mod6 danielpbarron asciilifeform davout jurov btw.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform perfectly fine way to win a war, don your scuba diving suit and drown the place.
mircea_popescu: there's a humongo strategic difference between "no alternative exists" and "we don't like the alternative as it contradicts our ideology". bitcoin is the ur-example of how to drive this through.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i am quite familiar with this strategy, given as it was the u.s. army's unofficial doctrine for chemical warfare (eat butyrylcholinesterase 'bioscavenger' antidote, then release sarin)
mircea_popescu: that reddit is not worth a dime alltogether is true ; yet there's an ample supply of these idiots who think otherwise. why not help them get their "traffics" ?
asciilifeform: ok in that sense, yes.
mircea_popescu: well i wasn't about to teach you how to cat, curl and sed was i.
asciilifeform: << dunno about other folx but i have a parachute packed for this.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 15:42 mircea_popescu: diana_coman hanbot trinque phf bingoboingo mod6 danielpbarron asciilifeform davout jurov btw.
asciilifeform: several, in fact.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the article is in fact linked first thing in the piece, or did you have another in mind ?
asciilifeform: the very same! i missed it.
mircea_popescu: a kk then
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 15:42 mircea_popescu: diana_coman hanbot trinque phf bingoboingo mod6 danielpbarron asciilifeform davout jurov btw.
asciilifeform: $up gabriel_laddel
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: have you ever considered becoming a glass blower?
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: i've worked glass.
asciilifeform: but never anything serious or remarkable.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel is fond of glass ?
gabriel_laddel: Not especially, but was brainstorming products to sell in SA (south america) that are a PITA to get into / create here in the USSA
gabriel_laddel: I for one would like to be able to buy pyrex, and not the re-branded crap either.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: i had an idea re pyrex, a few yrs ago
asciilifeform: simple pocket spectroscope that would let you distinguish shit-faux-pyrex from the real on, in a shop.
asciilifeform: *real one
phf: would make you millions with granola crowd
asciilifeform: (the owners of the trademark are cashing in, in the familiar american style, by selling exploding junk glass instead)
gabriel_laddel: ^ another fun thing to do in irl ba
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: pyrex is ~4% boron by mass, ought to have absorption line there.
asciilifeform: soda lime glass will not.
asciilifeform: work it out yerself.
asciilifeform: and if you ask mircea_popescu it is difficult to get so much as a stapler in buenos aires
asciilifeform: at least in quantity.
shinohai: <<< Clandestine meth producers would also appreciate.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 16:26 asciilifeform: simple pocket spectroscope that would let you distinguish shit-faux-pyrex from the real on, in a shop.
asciilifeform: shinohai: why's that
asciilifeform: proper labware - e.g., roundbottoms - are, afaik, still genuine borosilicate
asciilifeform: incidentally before the invention of borosilicate glass, it was customary for chemists to blow their own labware.
asciilifeform: (the high-temp variant needs an oxygen flame and is tricky to work)
shinohai: asciilifeform I suppose to not have equipment send flying shards of glass and nasty chemiclas all into face
asciilifeform: you don't even need glass! for meth.
asciilifeform: the leuckart wallach reaction, or the grignard, or whatever other processes, work ok in stainless steel
asciilifeform: (iirc they use old fire extinguishers for pressure vessel now)
asciilifeform: i must point out, glass is seldom used in chemical industry proper
asciilifeform: terrible material.
shinohai: There was local "law-enforcement" advisory in the area once, asking citizens to report suspicious buyers of old glassware at yard sales.
shinohai: Because totally gonna use that to make crystal instead of brownies.
asciilifeform: in new york, you can (or at least once could) be imprisoned for 'unlicensed' beaker.
asciilifeform: probably elsewhere.
gabriel_laddel: $s what color are your atoms
gabriel_laddel: $seen brendafdez
a111: Logged on 2014-09-29 20:07 asciilifeform: owns beaker? terrorist. all that remains is for inquisitor to establish what naughty substance you were making (or intended to make - separate article in penal code)
asciilifeform: in much of usa, it is easier to buy kalash than roundbottom flask.
asciilifeform: (usg doesn't really, despite the pretense, much care re pea shooter)
asciilifeform: go buy nitric acid.
asciilifeform: and watch the paperworks.
asciilifeform: $up gabriel_laddel
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
trinque: ey ben_vulpes, can I get you to crank that knob in nginx sometime today?
ben_vulpes: trinque: ^^
trinque: woo!
hanbot: << there's always minigod, neh?
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 03:22 mircea_popescu: church of x is a little dubious neh ?
asciilifeform: in other nyooz, i finally found some properly greedy folk in bmore willing to show me some boxez
phf: u $wot m8
hanbot: asciilifeform didja learn their variety speak? or figure it's a fluke (i thought theory was wrong demo)?
phf: probably just found somebody who has their shit sufficiently together to follow up on a sales lead without much prodding
hanbot: inconceivable!
asciilifeform: hanbot: greed trumps all.
asciilifeform: nobody cares if yer a martian or whatever.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 15:42 mircea_popescu: diana_coman hanbot trinque phf bingoboingo mod6 danielpbarron asciilifeform davout jurov btw.
davout: see #bitcoin-central
phf: davout: too late, all the action is happening in #trilema-trinque
davout: let's see
jurov: trinque: what a stratagem!
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 13:04 shinohai: In other news, r/btc is celebrating this morning imagining that angry miners will soon adopt Classic and usher in the fork.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-22 16:02 ascii_deadfiber: i expect a shift of resources back to the 'corrode bitcoin' stratagem, vs the 'pump shitcoin'
mircea_popescu: for teh records.
mircea_popescu: jurov * Cannot join #trilema-jurov (Channel is invite only). << you're not too shabby yourself :D
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 16:25 gabriel_laddel: Not especially, but was brainstorming products to sell in SA (south america) that are a PITA to get into / create here in the USSA
mircea_popescu: there's nothing the us can make that the thirld world needs and couldn't make. kinda why we're here in the first place, libertards ruined "the civilised world".
mircea_popescu: << no because couldn't be transported and also minimum wage.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 16:27 phf: would make you millions with granola crowd
mircea_popescu: << wait, i'm confused. you... live in buenos aires ?
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 16:29 gabriel_laddel: ^ another fun thing to do in irl ba
mircea_popescu: o holy shit the uncleal link. casimir effect ?! bejesus.
mircea_popescu: anyone actually tried that ?
mircea_popescu: "When a technology matures into a cash cow and then grows old, research into subtle undiscovered potentials abates in the name of cost-cutting. The neon sign has been common for a half-century and more. It is obvious that nothing remains to be discovered. There is no further technology to evolve, there are no new art forms to explore, there is no possible cross-fertilization with other disciplines" <<< al has an excellet poin
mircea_popescu: t. it is not only, and not principally, and arguably barely at all the sin of inept us management that it drives the productive forces of its slave empire into dead ends.
mircea_popescu: the true sin is that it pretends to seal off all sorts of good parts.
mircea_popescu: for every "go to college" piece of bad math and general ineptitude (see << btw, took me 5 minutes to fish this out, because apparently google filters out any searches related to airports, planes, etc from type searches thank you tsa, you've clearly helped LOTS!)
mircea_popescu: that cost the us 100 bucks, there's ten "this is a solved problem" idiocies that cost 100 mn each.
deedbot: plp voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: $up spoonzy_
deedbot: spoonzy_ voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: and in other incredibly postmodern lulz : << postmodern art must be translated, so : has a banner roller just like any wanna-be "news site^Hmedia property" of the "mainsteam" variety. on this roller, because they apparently ran out of photographs or photography, in the age of the most abundant photographism, they have a picture of a lcd screen. that lcd screen depicts material originated from
mircea_popescu: them, and not pleading in favour of their intelligence, organisational importance or general sanity : they captured some black chick that shat her unwanted baby in a toilet and flushed. THIS is a "top 10 fugitive".
mircea_popescu: how to take usg seriously ? explain this to me.
hanbot: << speaking of which, i went into a shoe repair shop here the other day for laces (which are not sold in shoe stores, mind you). they had one. not one pair, one shoelace.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 16:31 asciilifeform: and if you ask mircea_popescu it is difficult to get so much as a stapler in buenos aires
mircea_popescu: ahahah what
hanbot: the guy actually took out a second lace from a pair of shoes he was trying to sell and gave me that one to go with.
mircea_popescu: if i were a younger, innocent verision of myself, like the quoted alf has the unspeakable advantage of being, i'd disbelieve this story.
mircea_popescu: as it is...
trinque: lol
trinque: I guess now if you went in it'd read "from his pair of shoes he was trying to sell"
mircea_popescu: ahahaha that's more like guatemala.
mircea_popescu: << no because progress. tempered lime crapola is "just as good". PARETO SUPERIOR ALTERNATIVE!!11
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 16:27 asciilifeform: (the owners of the trademark are cashing in, in the familiar american style, by selling exploding junk glass instead)
mircea_popescu: you don't understand how the world works.
mircea_popescu: << i had carbide-oxygen blowtorch, blew own glass for my private chemistry lab as a 12yo!
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 16:39 asciilifeform: incidentally before the invention of borosilicate glass, it was customary for chemists to blow their own labware.
mircea_popescu: borosilicate glass tubage of any diameter you wanted was ~40 cents per kg.
ben_vulpes: shitty products are a viable strategy when nobody remembers quality.
ben_vulpes: quality is also expensive, and if the engineers not managed, can readily turn into an unbounded downside cost.
jurov: i dunno wtf is this all about. here borosilicate glassware like this is cheaply and widely available, i use it every day, it's suitable even for open flame
jurov: even "defined by ISO 3585 stadard"
jurov: i did break some, but always mechanically, never by heat/cold cycle
shinohai: o/ jurov my account isn't reflecting monthly fees? Or do you add those manually?
jurov: i did not do them yet
shinohai: ah kk
mircea_popescu: magic smoke!
jurov: it's perhaps just brand blindness that borosilicate glass ==== pyrex
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 16:44 shinohai: There was local "law-enforcement" advisory in the area once, asking citizens to report suspicious buyers of old glassware at yard sales.
mircea_popescu: jurov iirc it has an eukramic point, much like say carbon in steel. not just "some proportion", but a curve with some inflexion points.
jurov: wut?
mircea_popescu: jurov it's not just that it's "glass with borax in it", much like steel isn't just "iron with carbon in it"
mircea_popescu: or if you mean the other thing, eu, good, krama, alloy. same linguistic principle as eutectic, (teksis = melting).
jurov: SIMAX glass claims to comply to ISO 3585 standard for borosilicate glass,
jurov: it's widely used here and I never heard it failed because of cold/heat
mircea_popescu: a ok then.
jurov: only mechanically broken
jurov: so I think it's just some UStards latched on "pyrex" and are rightly milked by brand owner
asciilifeform: at one point trademark at least strongly implied 'same thing your grandfather had'
asciilifeform: today - not.
asciilifeform: so: trust but verify.
asciilifeform: spectroscope.
asciilifeform: would put some fear of god back into the fuckers, if folks could test in 3sec.
mircea_popescu: << lol actually "The MiniChurch" is not all bad.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 18:34 hanbot: << there's always minigod, neh?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no it wouldn't.
mircea_popescu: folks can test in 3 seconds "social media" site of "their choice" is neither , nor secure.
mircea_popescu: fear of god undetected.
asciilifeform: that's a designated cow stall
asciilifeform: not same thing.
asciilifeform: everybody uses glass.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ahahah-HAHA!
mircea_popescu: more women use apps than any sort of glass vessel! 10:1!
asciilifeform: dafuq is that, arse-mouth-system ?
jurov: i dun see how spectroscope helps with "it-must-be-called-pyrex"
asciilifeform: jurov: it helps with 'i walked in here to buy borosilicate kettle'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that is a chick contorting herself in an insane position so her own urine dribble falls in her own mouth while some standing guy is also pissing in her mouth.
asciilifeform: which is now ~unavailable in usa, except in antique stores
mircea_popescu: this would be an accurate depiction of "folks".
jurov: well, ask for 'borosilicate kettle acc. to ISO standard'. and get some degree burns and sue them and get rich
jurov: :)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i offer the knife whereby we cut them off, like defective siamese twin, from actual people.
mircea_popescu: note how many of your knives run against glass.
asciilifeform: there is always a correct knife.
asciilifeform: it is a matter of finding it.
mircea_popescu: thing about glass is - perfect material in low energy envelope.
mircea_popescu: it's like forcefield made of god's own pee.
mircea_popescu: so i posit to you that your problem is not even slightly a matter of "wrong knife", along the lines of, "if only i had hyfdrofluoric acid - could melt glass", but more of low energy. you wish to amass moar power not more knowledge, to dent teh pot.
mircea_popescu: heresy, i know. but it's a square.
asciilifeform: if you consider how one actually goes about cutting glass, it is an interesting analogy.
mircea_popescu: yeah, not half bad.
asciilifeform: at any rate, this is not simply a usaschwitz problem, if ANY of you buy chinese glass-anything, there ain't no boron in there.
mircea_popescu: it's always a little disappointing when i hit the last lines of the logs ;/
asciilifeform: dealing with bugmen begins with trust-but-verify.
mircea_popescu: << my bet would be that no, because easier :D
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 18:48 hanbot: asciilifeform didja learn their variety speak? or figure it's a fluke (i thought theory was wrong demo)?
mircea_popescu: << in other antique trilema lulz, check out what people didn't make a bitcoin for.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> borosilicate glass tubage of any diameter you wanted was ~40 cents per kg. << What about 8 meter borosilicate for Venusian culverts?
mircea_popescu: nah, from 1/2mm to about 8cm iirc.
BingoBoingo: So can't even make proper house to sewer pipe
asciilifeform: from glass?!
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: On Venus!
mircea_popescu: what do you eat that your shits are 8 m across ?!
asciilifeform: trains?
shinohai: ;;later tell BingoBoingo
gribble: The operation succeeded.
jurov: Qntra shares distributed.
shinohai: ty jurov
jurov: there seems to be some snag with coinbr or mpex, as every month recently, looking into it
shinohai: It's mpex I believe, 404 here.
BingoBoingo: Rule #97 Every MPEx proxy is always inaccessible from some point at some time
trinque: jurov: teh command is $deed
deedbot: accepted: 1
jurov: trinque: thx
jurov: shinohai: you can retry now, looks like the error was on my side
shinohai: thx jurov.
shinohai: It shows order went through manual but no receipt jurov
mircea_popescu: sooo... cechens blew up ataturk airport huh
BingoBoingo: If we try to cover all of these qntra is going to have to add a "weather" category for them
BingoBoingo: But will consider doing so after cult meeting
mircea_popescu: lol yeah, didn't mean for qntra. just mentioned it because it seems to me the "isis" figthers were ru special forces.
BingoBoingo: I dunno I'm thinking about a "weather" category nao
mircea_popescu: $up fiddlerwoaroof
deedbot: fiddlerwoaroof voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: << is logic here 'the genuine article would Never!11' or what
a111: Logged on 2016-07-02 00:20 mircea_popescu: lol yeah, didn't mean for qntra. just mentioned it because it seems to me the "isis" figthers were ru special forces.
mod6: The Most Serene Tabernacle || Tabernacle of La Serenissima
mod6: my 0.00000002
mod6: s/Tabernacle/Temple ? Anyway, just throwin it out there.
shinohai: also, here's how to enjoy cheap rum mircea_popescu
mod6: cute freckles
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, just the guy's private history. bulgaria wouldn't extradite him a few years ago ; before that was wounded in daghestan but survived etc.
mircea_popescu: shinohai meh, crappy rum crappy girl an wtf is with those ties.
mircea_popescu: inb4 shinohai is all "how dare you dis my wife OMG VENDETTA"
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: << what all would be encompassed by 'networking'?
mircea_popescu: you mean 7 ?
mircea_popescu: it must be capable to open a socket i think.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: speaking of uci, ever consider generalizing luby's algo to ~calculation~ ?
mircea_popescu: possibly.
ben_vulpes: and per 'storage', be able to read from that socket and write bytes to disk, for example
mircea_popescu: it's really a draft of a spec as it is.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes read from and write to yes
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that would close the triangle
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it already takes carr of comms and storage...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform either that or homomorphic encryption
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it isn't enough
asciilifeform: chaos is bigger adversary here than any others
asciilifeform: you gotta somehow abstract over the 1024 chickens pulling in random directions and dying periodically.
mircea_popescu: this is true.
ben_vulpes: how would someone in the wot interact with the uci; operation by operation over irc? shoop a script in uciasm for execution and billing upon completion?
mircea_popescu: anyway, feel free to propose refinements, ima edit it.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i would expect there'd have to be a management language for this.
ben_vulpes: i don't have a good enough model to propse anything yet, hence the questions
mircea_popescu: ie, uci admin thing advertises what it does, gets an order.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: as i understand: by signing and broadcasting a message.
ben_vulpes: "open socket to"
mircea_popescu: it wouldn't necessarily be over irc, though irc IS rather resilient and we get the benefit of bootstrapping a major irc network if we bake it in
ben_vulpes: "write 0xd3adb33f"
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes ideally it'd be more like "run this bash script"
asciilifeform: whether nodes obey would depend on who signed.
mircea_popescu: then uci responds with "script ran, results os and so, paqy here"
mircea_popescu: not entirely sure bash it is the right way here ; but it does cheaply (in cognitive terms) expose the system for usage. which is why ssh runs into a bash shell.
asciilifeform: there are 2 basic angles to approach uci : the standard botnet model, which appears to be what mircea_popescu is thinking of, where nodes are individual boxes running specific program that does fairly straightforward thing,
asciilifeform: and the other one.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'm thinking a "independent nodes" sort of botnet, as opposed to the zombie windowze thing usually run
asciilifeform: where a node receives encrypted 'rubbish' and does ?????, and sends various rubbish back, and adversary would have to capture 67% of nodes to have any clue re what.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the tor model is, other than its many implementation warts, fundamentally broken i think.
asciilifeform: not thinking of it here
mircea_popescu: anyway. uci is not gossipd. there is a good reason to implement gossipd OVER uci, but on the uci layer the thing shouldn't be concerned with this kind of security i don't thinl
asciilifeform: this is in the homomorphic vein
mircea_popescu: yeah but we don't have that cheat as of yet
ben_vulpes: metered 'eval'
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: very easy to botch, note
asciilifeform: (consider etherfartgas)
mircea_popescu: even if you just run top and count ram/cpu it's close enough
asciilifeform: nontrivial on toy os
mircea_popescu: bear in mind, we're not selling investors on this. cheap, broken, angry sample to iterate on is jus' fine.
asciilifeform: btw there was a trojan bearing 'tinyscheme'
ben_vulpes: noxious as it is, linux containerization and 'docker' in particular might be a good foundation for a 'cheap, angry' prototype
asciilifeform: worked kinda like this...
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: ick, massive
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes too many lines of code
asciilifeform: you need maybe 100kB max.
ben_vulpes: but the fun of hurting them with their own tools
mircea_popescu: they know more holes in "their own tools" than you do.
mircea_popescu: silk road hurt the shit out of itself with "their own tools"
ben_vulpes: note, not seriously advocating use of docker.
mircea_popescu: i think it's time to bury that corpse, it smells.
mircea_popescu: no i know, it's not on you ; just, the matter has to be discuss't.
asciilifeform: anyway something simple, like a mips emulator, fits in 200ln of c, and can execute N cycles permitting B bytes of storage, etc.
mircea_popescu: more along these lines i'm thinking.
ben_vulpes: notquite 'bash'
mircea_popescu: ie, some sort of arm/embeddable os approach
mircea_popescu: notquite, no.
asciilifeform: beauty is,
asciilifeform: you can buildroot for it...
asciilifeform: bam, os, bash, whatever.
ben_vulpes: hang on wut
ben_vulpes: like i'm five?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: victim ends up running something like a nintendo emu
asciilifeform: but that has nic, disk, etc
ben_vulpes: what does mean "bash, whatever"
asciilifeform: if you emulate a cpu that gcc knows how to target,
ben_vulpes: oh a buildroot that compiles a 'linux' to the nintendo emu arch?
asciilifeform: you can build, e.g., linux, for it.
asciilifeform: in 'idle' state, when the thing has no payload, it listens for a lubyfied turd signed with $key.
asciilifeform: for years, if it has to.
asciilifeform: when it pieces one together, and it passes sig - it runs.
ben_vulpes: this'd be your proposed extension
asciilifeform: for C cycles.
asciilifeform: then stops.
asciilifeform: and listens again, etc.
ben_vulpes: where C is governed by?
mircea_popescu: arbitrary set by box owner
mircea_popescu: gordian solution to turing problem.
asciilifeform: Min(box-c, turd-c)
ben_vulpes: if the lubified turd came from the supervisor process C could come along with the 'script'
mircea_popescu: script should prolly include a "needs C"
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it dun matter where it comes from, so long as valid sig
asciilifeform: maybe it comes from shortwave picked up in soundcard hiss.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if we do it like that will have to have expiration.
asciilifeform: maybe on bbc.
mircea_popescu: not the end of the world, 1700 business orders carried expiration.
asciilifeform: at any rate, nothing precludes listening for new turd WHILE running current one.
ben_vulpes: so then worker process would have to get involved in the billing loop?
phf: so proposed solution is a subset of qemu with metering, etc?
mircea_popescu: seems to be coallescing that way
asciilifeform: phf: without the qemu crapola
asciilifeform: emulate mips, or even oisc
phf: well "qemu", a virtual machine of some sort
asciilifeform: in that sense, yes
ben_vulpes: i imagined that each installed worker process would listen for orders from only one key, which'd handle billing.
ben_vulpes: or, read from tickets.
mircea_popescu: at the other end of the spectrum, it can just be open bash and well, don't take code from people you don't trust.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the key emplaced on install.
phf: notch's DCPU-16
asciilifeform: permanent.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: aok. then not 'any key in wot' and bill afterwards
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: open boxes are rubbish.
asciilifeform: because syphilitic.
mircea_popescu: in general yes. but wot-open is not open.
asciilifeform: if you want wot-open, yer stuck with above algo.
asciilifeform: and not ever 'just bash'
mircea_popescu: anyway, this is a political choice mostly. if we do a "gentleman's agreement" and no code sorta thing, we end up strongly centralizing, army of lovers.
mircea_popescu: if we do a "trust but verify" no agreement all code, we end up strongly decentralizing, but exposed to you know, thedao.
asciilifeform: my understanding was that we are specifically protocolizing what was once customarily promise.
ben_vulpes: what would 'no code' even mean?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform -V
asciilifeform: aha, as in v.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes that there's no specific check or test other than top | grep "ram" sorta thing.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, -V means, be verbose. put your idea in explicit form.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: we aren't merely 'let's pool chumpnets between phriendz' here.
mircea_popescu: why not ?
asciilifeform: but rather mechanizing the process of harnessing chickens.
mircea_popescu: i'm not saying that we are, but WHY NOT must be stated, and in such a way 107 iq guy in 2049 reading this understands exactly wtf.
mircea_popescu: hence, -V.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for one thing, traditional bot-herding is a misery in 1,001 ways: intensely platform-specific, suffers various central points of failure, etc
mircea_popescu: yeah, the platform specificity is a bitch.
asciilifeform: which is why you want TINY emulated thing.
mircea_popescu: the whole point of uci is for there to be no more platform in that sense. course, this seems an unlikely goal.
asciilifeform: quite easy to do actually.
asciilifeform: the p2p control is the one tricky bit
phf: so a virtual machine with constraints, "jump to here, run at most 100 ticks, claim at most 100 heap" that's generated for the target with target platform and control key baked in during generation
asciilifeform: most chumps live behind nat.
asciilifeform: we sorta went over this in the pogo threads.
asciilifeform: phf: correct.
mircea_popescu: HOWEVER, it will create, if successful, a ready way to resolve and such problems.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-28 15:09 asciilifeform: 'when DEC Alpha existed, did you motherfuckers buy?? no?? have fun'
phf: then write your lisps or c compilers that would target the arch
mircea_popescu: "is your dec alpha/toaster/bitcoin miner pluggable into uci ? cool, then it makes money. no ? it's broken fix it"
mircea_popescu: main reason hardware is so centralizing today is exactly lack of this sort of marketplace,
mircea_popescu: so it becomes "winner takes all" sorta tourney.
mircea_popescu: fundamentally uci is a lateral pill for the hardware problem, oddly enough.
phf: asciilifeform: that solution doesn't preclude fancy metering techniques, wot members own control hubs, talk to each other gossip style, and route tasks accordingly
asciilifeform: you want a really small beast, that you can easily polymorph, stuff into roms, various appropriate places..
phf: hmm
mircea_popescu: i certainly see the argument re SMALL.
asciilifeform: the one tricky bit is the crypto
mircea_popescu: the one tricky bit is that other one tricky bit.
asciilifeform: what key is baked into individual instance?
phf: per vm aes pair
asciilifeform: wtf is aes pair?!
phf: a symmetric-key algorithm is my point, say aes, since i don't know any better
phf: but own key for each vm to vm pairing
asciilifeform: symmetric crypto other than otp dun exist.
asciilifeform: we demonstrated this in... march?
asciilifeform: and anyway you can't use symmetric key that could be pulled from the binary by adversary to any useful end.
phf: you will have that problem with any form of crypto. if your binary is compromised it's compromised (ignoring fancy techniques of avoiding compromise)
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