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deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 1287424238120947 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'Tony Lindgren <tony@atomide.com>; ' - http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/C866293ADCFA761D385D4B8A407BA2CA0109F086D2463F4B558E1C6354536DE5
felipelalli: Democracy, how I *love* that: http://dwarfpool.com/eth/voting/ :lol: it's fun to watch this suicide.
felipelalli: Ah! Democracy. Thank you to shot the head of this zombie.
BingoBoingo: felipelalli: You'll love the latest Qntra http://qntra.net/2016/06/forking-question-of-the-day/
felipelalli: *love*
felipelalli: thank you BingoBoingo
BingoBoingo: bagchain, because paper bag is used in Ether huffing
BingoBoingo: Also because chain of bagholders
deedbot: [Qntra] Forking Question Of The Day - http://qntra.net/2016/06/forking-question-of-the-day/
felipelalli: Really, if I had my life invested on it and I were the 1.77% "NO", I would make a campaign to "the resistence" and ask to users change the PoW algo due to defend from this clear mining attack.
felipelalli: they need a M.P. in their project.
BingoBoingo: Ehm the name kind of did the project in
felipelalli: why in Buttcoin? lol
BingoBoingo: Because Buttcoin enjoys Qntra and there's a girl there with a serious ladyboner for everything MP
felipelalli: That fork makes no sense at all. What shit they have in mind?
felipelalli: fun fact: *no one* really knew what was wrote in that "smart contract". No fucking single person, even who wrote that. They just put the money in a tied "kind-of-immutable" contract that they simply couldn't read.
BingoBoingo: They are stuck between a rock and a moving rock
felipelalli: fun fact 2: in the "human readable contract" they wrote: "nothing said outside the code is valid in case of dispute. The code is the final word." lol
BingoBoingo: Seriously what attorney at lol signed off on that?
felipelalli: I just can't understand!
felipelalli: a language like haskell (or at least a lisp dialect) should be chosen to build smart contracts, to begin with. It should be purely functional, predictable / deterministic, strong-typed etc.
felipelalli: Ethereum looks like a mess made in a hurry to me.
mircea_popescu: that;d be because it's exactly what it is.
felipelalli: and the very-first millionarie contract (14% of Ether, lol) should be much more simpler.
felipelalli: mircea_popescu: why they are so distance from the reality? They continue to buy this shit.
mircea_popescu: who "they" ?
felipelalli: ethereum community
mircea_popescu: think for a moment how a shitshow like poloniex works. you make 1mn scamtokens out of thin air. you send them to a "margined" "exchange" website. you use the "margin" 1mn scamtokens provide to... buy 1mn more! now you have enough "marginable assets" ie scamtokens to... buy 1mn more! and if the price goes up... 1mn more!
mircea_popescu: soon enough you're sitting on an account that is still worth the 0 it was worth to begin with, except that has also bought 10x to 100x of the same scamtokens. so... "they are buying" ? yeah, sure. and paying with what ?
felipelalli: mircea_popescu: true.
mircea_popescu: with any luck someone actually sends actual bitcoin to either "buy" the stuff to "mommentum trade" or else you know "short it". either way it's a win - your 0 value scamcoin attracted some actual money!
felipelalli: and a "premined" coin (dev coins) is easy to inflate the final marketcap: I just create 1`000`000`000`000`000`000 coins and sell to my mum at $ 0.01
felipelalli: the same as Ripple
felipelalli: mircea_popescu: what time is it in Argentina?? It's late, isn't? Here is 5 AM.
felipelalli: are you waking up or haven't you sleep yet? lol
BingoBoingo: He's just back from enjoying the vibrant local nightlife
mircea_popescu: i'm on the tail end of an orgy.
BingoBoingo: Ah, I guessed rightish!
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo here's a hint at the greatness and grandeur of being a young male in a fucked up society : 90%+ of soypizdi correspondents are... male.
mircea_popescu: you understand this ? that fucking desperate.
BingoBoingo: how is that so different from
mircea_popescu: i have like a feeling that if i offered them to wear a cock cage and watch quietly while i fuck the girls, more than half would gladly accept.
BingoBoingo: $google they really are buttcoins nao
deedbot: http://trilema.com/they-really-are-buttcoins-nao << They really are Buttcoins nao on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. | http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-07-2014 << NEXT: 28-07-2014 | http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-satoshi-nakamoto-email-hacker-says-hes-negotiating-with-the-bitcoin-founder << The Satoshi Nakamoto Email Hacker Says He's Negotiating with the ...
mircea_popescu: "hey, at least it GETS ME CLOSE to where life is!"
BingoBoingo: What, do they not have home improvement stores in Argentina?
mircea_popescu: sure they do.
BingoBoingo: Well why aren't they helping the divorcees pick out flowers and paint colors?
BingoBoingo: Or buying lawnmowers and making some fucking money
mircea_popescu: what divorcees ?
mircea_popescu: catholic country, bitch. abortion's illegal.
mircea_popescu: seriously, when you're trying to represent argentina, think of a 1950s awkansaw that never heard of new york and seriously thinks itself "the jewel of the ozarks" or some such shit. in all seriousness, no self-deprecatory humour intended OR EVEN CONCEIVABLE.
BingoBoingo: Ok, that's some serious delusion. Everyone knows Branson is the jewel of the Ozarks not R-kansas
BingoBoingo: Anyways, widows then.
mircea_popescu: and for anyone who deludes himself into fucking thinking that "women voting" and "divorce" is "what made '''america''' ungreat again", seriously, come to fucking argentina. they're just as dickless as you are and women here don't get to divorce anyone.
mircea_popescu: nor do they need to. there's yet to be invented some manner of keeping the dickless from being totally handpuppetted out.
BingoBoingo: Well women keep getting old anywhere you go.
BingoBoingo: Anyways, what else can be expected when Italians make a United States further south
BingoBoingo: In other news of Argentina singer songwriters now become "popstars" here at the age Madonna got old https://archive.is/uZ5Hq
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 588.03, vol: 24200.57961702 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 574.0, vol: 20332.44345 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 592.04, vol: 138012.54523485 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 570.0, vol: 3.06378972 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 590.02752, vol: 100428.85400000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 590.97, vol: 8380.2247805 | Volume-weighted last average: 589.72330473
thestringpuller: ;;market sell --fiat 19000000
gribble: Bitfinex | This order would exceed the size of the order book. You would sell 294609.46 bitcoins for a total of 6705440.3944 USD and take the price to 0. | Data vintage: 0.0047 seconds
BingoBoingo: ;;goxlag
gribble: Error: "goxlag" is not a valid command.
BingoBoingo: ;;buttfunex lag
gribble: Error: "buttfunex" is not a valid command.
deedbot: [Trilema] The life and times of one Phil Daian, aspiring nigger & apprentice cocksucker - http://trilema.com/2016/the-life-and-times-of-one-phil-daian-aspiring-nigger-apprentice-cocksucker/
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo tried not tired
mircea_popescu: as funny as that is :D
BingoBoingo: lol, fxd
Framedragger: BingoBoingo: that's a great brexit writeup, well done :D
BingoBoingo: thank you
Framedragger: all essentials covered and well delivered, heh
mircea_popescu: maybe articles like that should include an "editor's pick" and then once a year we could total how well qntra did.
BingoBoingo: Anyways this is why people wanting to blog need to do it frequently beyond the reasons mp lays out here http://trilema.com/blogging-is-a-muscle-and-other-observations
Framedragger: sounds like a good idea to me!
BingoBoingo: you get to link yourself later for context
mircea_popescu: it's not a library call if YOU WROTE IT ALL!
BingoBoingo: But yeah the challenge is how to do editor's pics
mircea_popescu: ps : why is "common wisdom" in agreement that "no man could possibly hold 1mn lines of code in head" when i actually have 10mn words worth of trilema articles in my head ?
mircea_popescu: is this a perception problem, a language problem, what ?
BingoBoingo: Its and encoding problem
mircea_popescu: head ordinarily holds billions' loc worth, shit, we can even climb a stair
BingoBoingo: But you forgive their eggog rate
BingoBoingo: Seriouly defect has to limit what they can hold
BingoBoingo: Like how alf fails to parse the jwz "just want to"
BingoBoingo: Some baskets hold water, others you get at the gift shop
BingoBoingo: alf tried to parse the jwz "just want to" as an instruction whereas you treated it as a antifact of the broken jwz
mircea_popescu: explain this one ?
BingoBoingo: alf failed to pars the "just want to" and made a point of the statement not parsing. It's not made for parsing though because jwz just wants to. Nothing wrong with tossing around the "just wants to" as a string like any other though.
BingoBoingo: Like any other string that doesn't parse to meaningful code.
mircea_popescu: so basically you're saying natural language works because interpretable rather than compiled ?
BingoBoingo: Also natural languages are strongly typed.
BingoBoingo: strongly typed and interpretable
mircea_popescu: how are they strongly typed ?
BingoBoingo: Because you can quarentine nonsense as isolated strings and lol about them. If you can't do that they'd eventually start making you stupid.
BingoBoingo: WHen you start kicking errors because "just want to" makes soemthing overflow
mircea_popescu: just because the comment-out is communicated in-band rather than explicitly given as // or whatever doesn't mean it's strongly typed.
mircea_popescu: it means it's strongly ambiguous lol
BingoBoingo: lol, fine
mircea_popescu: but yeah, this is a pretty good model. "natural language is just like a computer language that had no // or quotations." "so how do i know magic strings, and comments, from code ?" "your mother."
BingoBoingo: Anyways, compiling would break everything
mircea_popescu: i don't get it. gun shop refused selling to alcoholic wifebeater, he identifies as "journalist" and butthurts all over ?
mircea_popescu: i suppose that's how the whole soypizdi thing should go, too. "no ty, you're a dude" "I AM NOT A DUDE I AM A STUDENT!!!"
BingoBoingo: Apparently they couldn't agree on which reserved words take precedence in the order of operations
mircea_popescu: lol. and even better - he wanted to buy it, to show how easy it is. then it wasn't easy. but instead of publishing a piece about how "i thought it was easy - turns out it's not", he has a ...
mircea_popescu: holy shit the brainrot.
BingoBoingo: Using you loc allowance for Disney does that
BingoBoingo: Tis the redditard way
Framedragger: jurov: have you seen this - analysis of github users ssh keys: https://blog.benjojo.co.uk/post/auditing-github-users-keys
Framedragger: this also means that potentially a large amount of vulnerable/shit keys have been removed from github since then
mircea_popescu: speaking of that, asciilifeform any idea how it's possible that Submissions: 3305302 Known Moduli: 2708380 Moduli Waiting for Test: 3677 ? shouldn't these add up ?
mircea_popescu: Framedragger not a bad thing in any case.
Framedragger: "After realising I have a public key database of most users on GitHub, I remembered back to the May 2008 Debian OpenSSH bug, where the randomness source was compromised to the point where the system could only generate one of 32k keys in a set. I used g0tmi1k’s set of keys to compare against what I had in my database, and found a very large amount of users who are still using vulnerable keys, and even worse, have commit access to some
Framedragger: good stuff
Framedragger: "... to some really large and wide projects"
mircea_popescu: debian. heh.
mircea_popescu: in other news, nobody uses ecdsa. considering what they spent trying to get people on it... such success.
mircea_popescu: lol compromised in the attack : spotify, python core and crypto libs, django and ruby.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: if you mean "nobody smart", then that's one thing, but if you mean in terms of actual numbers, then i'd probably have to disagree. shitloads of ecdsa ssh host public keys anyway (stats and breakdown to be published at some point in teh future)
Framedragger: gov.uk too lol, though no surprise
mircea_popescu: Framedragger look at his data. 97.7% rsa, ~3% dss (!), ~0% other
Framedragger: ahh i didn't look there
Framedragger: ok good. so not much of ecdsa client-side
Framedragger: would still be curious to write/find a tool which detects low hanging fruit for EC ssh host keys / keys with shitty parameters
mircea_popescu: "However, a search on GitHub reveals thousands of results where code containing AWS secret keys can be found in plain text, which means anyone can access those accounts." ~ http://www.itnews.com.au/news/aws-urges-developers-to-scrub-github-of-secret-keys-375785
Framedragger: i just wanted to quote this exact sentence lol - yeah another fruity area
mircea_popescu: "if you let the sheep in, the sheep scent soon follows."
Framedragger: ..soo, this generates ssh keys based on the broken debian prng: https://github.com/g0tmi1k/debian-ssh - github keyset has been matched against these - wonder about them host keys....
mircea_popescu: romanian "nazi" press is having all the conceivable lolz because "the boss of the faggot jews" (ie, LGBTQ mission to Israel) is one Kurlander. (cur = ass in romanian, the poor guy's name sounds exactly on the money)
Framedragger: hahahha
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, they added another coupla letters to "lgbt" ? i wonder how long before it smashes the stack.
Framedragger: etymological proof!!!
Framedragger: also added a "2" it seems
mircea_popescu: i propose simply W for weirdo.
Framedragger: "LGBTQ2 refers to people who identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer/questioning or two-spirited."
Framedragger: 2 for two-spirited
Framedragger: for real
mircea_popescu: (ftr : gay -> LGB (lesbian, gay, bisexual) -> LGBT (+transgender) -> LGBTQ (+queer) -> LGBTQ+ (+algo mas) )
mircea_popescu: Framedragger are these the "fuck you, i'm a dragon" nuts ?
Framedragger: seems kinda widespread actually!
Framedragger: dunno, but well maybe heh
Framedragger: possibly
mircea_popescu: oh, wait, there's also LGBTTTQQUAA! i kid you not!
Framedragger: wikipedia mentions "navajo spirit" something something in connection with that acronym?!
mircea_popescu: or actually : LGBTTTQQUAA+PAGCBGVP!
mircea_popescu: incredible how much empty noise three people can make, especially should they be the sort of people who couldn't ever find a job, once liberated from the need to look for one.
Framedragger: the navajo gaze seems to originate at least in part from an article called something like the navajo spirit gaze
Framedragger: ""My own work differentiates the mere intersection of Native and queer representations from a two-spirit gaze by noting a two-spirit gaze’s greater focus on traditionalist, nationalist, and activist representations of community-identified two-spirit images.7 Given a critical mass in two-spirit Navajo film and the strength of Navajo cultural, feminist, and gender activism, this article foregrounds Navajo LGBTQ2 gazes on two-spirit Navaj
mircea_popescu: oh look, a pdf. because math amirite.
Framedragger: "o images."
Framedragger doesnt like pdfs either, ok
mircea_popescu: navajo feminist gender activism ? what the everloving.
Framedragger: yes for real
Framedragger: article literally starts with quote "Two-Spirit people balance society, the world, and the cosmos."
mircea_popescu: cuz so fat ?
Framedragger: i suppose this is "fuck you am dragon" territory?
Framedragger: provide solid foundation
mircea_popescu: the notion that "navajo culture" is ridiculous on its face. it's entirely built on equivocation between the term of art (EVERYTHING noetic is "a culture" in say anthropology) and the common term (no, the united states does not have a culture ; even if it has a civilisation. let alone fucking navajo - never had one, never could have had one.)
Framedragger: crazy shit.
mircea_popescu: http://ctrl-d.ro/app/uploads/2016/06/e388bdd9-0bf0-4a26-ba03-02657f521b72.jpg << check out the golf club pattern! which mysteriously disappeared from all literature (ie, fiction writing) on the subject (as well as google, "scientific" paper search engines etc) after it was so humiliatingly debunked.
mircea_popescu: IT LIVES ON!
mircea_popescu: seriously though, one of the best meta-patterns. "this is how stupid people think things go." sort-of like the matchbox sign in clinical psychopathology : once you see the guy bringing you little boxes you know he's got Morgellons ; once he whips out the golf club patterns you know he's got stupid.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-06-08#1157231 << i haven't checked but apparently https://github.com/torvalds.keys is available? not sure if helpful at this point, if already scraped etc, and maybe this posses other problems (user enumeration, additional rate-limiting etc)
a111: Logged on 2015-06-08 15:46 jurov: they have api limit 6000/hour
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: heh can't find much on the internets for "golf club pattern" indeed, but also don't get its initial idea/appeal? O.O
mircea_popescu: back in 2010ish, some derps from us academia came with "proof" of the (at the time still called) global warming nonsense, in the shape of a much-loved-bymedia "golf cross pattern".
mircea_popescu: what they had done was, take ~50 years of atmospheric data, "reconstruct" on its basis about 100k years of imaginary history, then show on the basis of this projection rebranded as "data" that TEMPERATURES ARE RAISING!!11\
mircea_popescu: they wouldn't share the model
Framedragger: ahhh yeah, gotcha.
Framedragger: oh, lol.
mircea_popescu: then people hilary clinton'd their servers, and found
mircea_popescu: a) a model that you could put anything in, such as the weighs or the ages of your past girflriends, to take out the same exact pattern
mircea_popescu: and b) a RICO-worthy criminal conspiracy, replete with fraud etc, to marginalize, intimidate and if need be assassinate "opponents" as defined by a group of nuts
mircea_popescu: (that were trying to take over the public spending in this field)
Framedragger: yeahyeah the whole weather modelling in the future based on specific chosen parameters and models is hilarious, and gets regurgitated by media etc, i too have general aversion to this; does not mean that all of it is useless but hell if they don't show how they got there then that's even more ridiculous
mircea_popescu: no charges were pressed, of course, because silk road is totally where crime happens, rather than the back offices of each and every single ivy league "college" / real estate scam
mircea_popescu: Framedragger well yeah but this was a specific lulzpocalypse.
Framedragger: from what i recall IPCC is ripe with corruption
Framedragger: gotcha.
Framedragger: it's a yuuge industry
mircea_popescu: Climategate, another thing that "didn't happen".
mircea_popescu: anyway, for argentine as well as any derps who have nfi what "night life" means : follow along the fucking pictures http://www.clujlife.com with the knowledge that a) the nudes aren't published, by convention, but girls go naked all the time ; b) it's a tiny fucking town, half a mil population if the school's in session.
Framedragger: right on.
Framedragger: correlations remind me of http://i.imgur.com/3B0pt3M.jpg
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1487717 << mircea_popescu ~wrote it~. whereas nobody ever has or will write 10mil executable anything with own hands.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 09:54 mircea_popescu: ps : why is "common wisdom" in agreement that "no man could possibly hold 1mn lines of code in head" when i actually have 10mn words worth of trilema articles in my head ?
asciilifeform: this is elementary.
mircea_popescu: why not ?
asciilifeform: two reasons.
asciilifeform: proggy does not compress. head does not have the handy lossy compressor, as for human text.
hanbot: lol kakobrekla is still in his self-justifying tailspin i see?
asciilifeform: other reason is that most programmers don't write code in the sense that, e.g., mircea_popescu writes essays. instead, they take a shit, and strip away elements of the shit until the compiler is happy and the 'tests' pass.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but... why not ?
asciilifeform: rather than as any kind of rational creation.
mircea_popescu: hanbot eh, who cares ?
hanbot: i find the hypocrisy outrageous. so i guess i care.
asciilifeform: hanbot: he's been at it without skipping a beat ever since his shitburial.
hanbot: "ftr when he joined this place, it was purely about business and so was he. later he was wrapping business in propaganda, which is tolerable, as the core is solid. now he is wrapping propaganda in business wrap, at which point it becomes intolerable for any reasonable mind." << i don't, for example, seem to remember the same thing. at all.
mircea_popescu: lol. why's he keep lying anyway ? it didn't work the previous n times, gonna work next ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, ima fish out "how #b-a started" later, it's like two lines.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: he's working the stay-behind folks.
hanbot: for that matter Framedragger i start on that dpaste out of curiosity, run into "Getting out of the way: The most basic level is based on avoidingchallenging others’ delusions, and factoring them into your own thinking. The “organizing” merely involves arranging matters so things and people you care about are moved out of the way of an impending train wreck."
asciilifeform: e.g., punkman
asciilifeform: and the still-tuned-in #t folk, to lesser extent
hanbot: maybe we're talking of very different people, or whatever. but i've never seen or heard of anyone more effervescently challenging of other's illusions than mp.
mircea_popescu: hanbot nuca nu-ntelegi tu umorul &c. it's all a ploy!
diana_coman: asciilifeform> other reason is that most programmers don't write code in the sense that, e.g., mircea_popescu writes essays. instead, they take a shit, and strip away elements of the shit until the compiler is happy and the 'tests' pass. <- fwiw I don't think that those are programmers
asciilifeform: hanbot: what can i say, he didn't buy the 'seekrit evidence' and now sees mircea_popescu as вредитель etc. and very tiresomely repetitive.
diana_coman: in my book programmers are exactly those who write code as a rational creation
diana_coman: not monkeys pressing levers until the light turns on or whatever
asciilifeform: diana_coman: there are maybe 20 programmers then.
diana_coman: that might very well be
asciilifeform: diana_coman: we had a thread re programming as medieval medicine. it is in the logs...
diana_coman: in my days at uni I failed students precisely because of trying that idea
mircea_popescu: no but wait. WHY is it that programmers don't write like mp.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it is now taught as official state of the art, believe it:
asciilifeform: $s sussman
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: because monkeys
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1487752 << prety sure this is in the logz: a 'submission' can have ANY number of moduli in it, because subkeys.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 10:30 mircea_popescu: speaking of that, asciilifeform any idea how it's possible that Submissions: 3305302 Known Moduli: 2708380 Moduli Waiting for Test: 3677 ? shouldn't these add up ?
asciilifeform: including 0.
asciilifeform: because shitkeys (dsa etc)
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 10:39 mircea_popescu: http://vertis.io/2013/12/06/unauthorised-litecoin-mining.html in other lulz.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1487858 << this i agree with! however, be it as it may i've never seen mp graciously accept to being wrong on some point. now, that *may* be because mp isn't wrong a whole lotta times, i contend, yes; but it's still hilarious to me (in a stimulating kind of way, fwiw). e.g. the chinese konspiraci thing, it was posted on qntra by mircea_popescu, and then later mircea_popescu says the theory is legit becau
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 12:32 hanbot: maybe we're talking of very different people, or whatever. but i've never seen or heard of anyone more effervescently challenging of other's illusions than mp.
Framedragger: now i know that some things should be taken in jest, metaphorically, generically, etc. still, i say "lol".
Framedragger: "because it was posted on qntra."
Framedragger: stupid irc
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1487809 << wasn't it 'hockey stick graph' ?
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 11:04 mircea_popescu: http://ctrl-d.ro/app/uploads/2016/06/e388bdd9-0bf0-4a26-ba03-02657f521b72.jpg << check out the golf club pattern! which mysteriously disappeared from all literature (ie, fiction writing) on the subject (as well as google, "scientific" paper search engines etc) after it was so humiliatingly debunked.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform was it ?
mircea_popescu: tis possibru, this.
mircea_popescu: diametric well, how many students can you fail.
mircea_popescu: i wanted to fail the whole philosophy 101 class. mihu didn't think it such a good idea. short teaching career for me, thankfully.
hanbot: mircea_popescu, tyvm!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1487823 << mr mold correctly identified academia as one of 3 pillars of 'the cathedral' (lizard enforcers) - the other 2 being the controlled press, and usg civil service proper
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 11:13 mircea_popescu: and b) a RICO-worthy criminal conspiracy, replete with fraud etc, to marginalize, intimidate and if need be assassinate "opponents" as defined by a group of nuts
mircea_popescu: damn i mean, diana_coman how many students can you fail.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger was not here for the famous xor thread i guess.
asciilifeform: the otp thread?
mircea_popescu: i dunno, i'm wrong all the fucking time, at least as far as i can see. i guess not usually on thosethings people'd much rather i were wrong on
mircea_popescu: re the submissions : we couldn't have had lots of submissions without a rsa key in it, seeing how this is ssh set neh ?
asciilifeform: ssh key set is about 20k in thus far.
asciilifeform: (more, really, figure as of 2 days ago)
asciilifeform: submission is the single slowest piece.
mircea_popescu: https://archive.is/HOMve re missing luke chadwick / vertis.io thing
asciilifeform: ah lel that was in the logz
asciilifeform: somebody crawled shithub for aws creds and cashed in
asciilifeform: hit each chump for 4fig usd of ding , for a few bux return each
asciilifeform: because why the fuck not.
mircea_popescu: litecoin of all things.
asciilifeform: at the time there was no scrypt asic.
thestringpuller: wow. maybe theymos has something with his r/bitcoin moderation: "Please, never ever turns Bitcoin into a democracy sh** thing. Be strong."
asciilifeform: hence litecoin.
mircea_popescu: anyway, talk about "botnet market" bla bla : imagine if guy had where to use this, recoup closer to the 4fig.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: we had this thread also.
thestringpuller: I guess education eventually works....?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sure.
asciilifeform: ~nobody has where to use.
thestringpuller would never expect reddit to not be idiots
asciilifeform: and i dun think a typical chump is ever worth remotely near 4fig.
diana_coman: <mircea_popescu> damn i mean, diana_coman how many students can you fail. <- myeah, I know; thing is also: they shouldn't have gotten that high to fail basically, not that many
asciilifeform: not even if you have his bank acct.
diana_coman: but I don't consider it a solution, no
asciilifeform: not even as pig.
diana_coman: I was just stating that I actually applied my definition, it's not just some random thing I came up with now
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform his NAME is. he himself, no. but just like us soldier isn't worth the crap he took that morning, but us soldier dog tag is worth ~1mn or so on the ransom market...
mircea_popescu: us programmer isn't worth his weight in pimple juice
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: but shallow market depth
mircea_popescu: us programmer's credentials could buy apple.
asciilifeform: usg will pay 1, 2 ransoms
mircea_popescu: usg has to date paid 100s of ransoms.
asciilifeform: over decades
mircea_popescu: past decade.
deedbot: [Trilema] How #bitcoin-assets was born. - http://trilema.com/2016/how-bitcoin-assets-was-born/
asciilifeform: i can believe.
mircea_popescu: it will continue to pay. perfect ransom victim : cheaper to pay than not to pay.
asciilifeform: but won't pay 1,000.
mircea_popescu: it will pay ransoms even as it can't pay to import grain
asciilifeform: and certainly not with actual money.
mircea_popescu: the last dime it spends will be on a ransom.
mircea_popescu: ~exactly how it went for rome~ also. and byzantium as well.
asciilifeform: printolade by the bucket - sure.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let me run by you a crazy idea that came to me in my dazed state we'll approximate by "sleep"
mircea_popescu: suppose the correct solution to the "large systems" problem isn't exactly to use "strong typed" languages and in general, more minutely define the elements involved. suppose the solution in fact is to give up on the (nonsensical, in theory, and unfound in nature) notion of "unambiguous notation".
mircea_popescu: let three lines of A code be ambiguously interpretable to mean 5 different things, so that a million lines of A code become a very clearly useful, controllable item.
mircea_popescu: basically, instead of trying to achieve the moon-height skyscraper by investing in material rigidity, invest instead in a sort of... fault tolerance i guess you'd call it.
asciilifeform: the 'fuzzy logic' thing was in style in '80s for a brief spell
asciilifeform: until folks realized that you get soup
asciilifeform: that is good for very little.
asciilifeform: $s computers you can't program
a111: 4 results for "computers you can't program", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=computers%20you%20can't%20program
mircea_popescu: but the basis here is indisputable : if trilema were equally sized code, i'd be dead trying to maintain it.
mircea_popescu: yet as it is, takes little time to keep up.
asciilifeform: mechanism dun compress.
asciilifeform: fact of life, sad.
mircea_popescu: how do you mean ?
mircea_popescu: (and yes, i'm studiously not setting foot on the ground you suggest - because you'd vaporize my entire thing in five seconds. so let's sit over here where it's safe.)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1487842 << in that sense. 1) we don't have the huffman table for it in our meat , unlike human text 2) well-designed program has very high entropy.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 12:27 asciilifeform: proggy does not compress. head does not have the handy lossy compressor, as for human text.
mircea_popescu: go the other way : why does it have to be a mechanism ? god knows people'v proven time and again they're perfectly happy with black boxen that do something vaguely related to what they expected 80% or so of the time.
mircea_popescu: but WHY is it possible to have a huffman table for human text in meat ?
asciilifeform: hyoomans have been talking for considerably longer than they've been programming..
mircea_popescu: but i meant in the general, as a theoretical possibility. how the fuck...
mircea_popescu: you could pursue your line, sure, "look, being genetically female is complex, which is why maledom is delta-encoded on one chromosome. speech is the same."
asciilifeform: ... and human lang is quite low entropy.
mircea_popescu: but then... there's no such thing as "speech", and children of random parents can learn random unrelated language.
mircea_popescu: in any case the historical argument is very dubious. people have nopt really been thinking ~in language~ before say kant.
asciilifeform: human meat has some very spiffy coprocessor for speech, etc. but it doesn't actually help so much with writing program (and often actively hinders)
mircea_popescu: they sure as fuck haven't before the greeks or w/e, that's not millions opf years.
asciilifeform: recall the hypertalk thread?
asciilifeform: $s hypertalk
asciilifeform: ^ any of them
mircea_popescu: i dunno, don't get me wrong, fucking larry drove me nuts, "open door", seriously ?
mircea_popescu: but that's not really what;s contemplated here.
asciilifeform: greeks, kant, et al --> ~unambiguous~, deliberate language. definitely doesn't come from factory in hyooman firmware, has to be installed aftermarket.
asciilifeform: firmware ships with bamboozling, prayer, monkey grunts, 'i didnt fuck him', 'cheque is in the mail' language processor.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what specifically is contemplated here..?
asciilifeform: would mircea_popescu like, e.g., pgptron, that maybe-multiplies some maybe-primes if it feels like it hat day in its sim-menstrualcycle?
mircea_popescu: nothing actionable or useful that i can discern. just the simple observation that a) code the size of the body of work of respected past intellectuals is not maintainable by teams or individuals, while the writings were maintainable by the author solo ; b) the correct solution to scale is not increase in rigidity, but flexibility. which is how skyscrapers work or japan defends from earthquakes.
asciilifeform: or how about a lift that maybe-goes down or maybe-up
mircea_popescu: so it seems to me that perhaps we could say "obviously" the more strictly defined a language gets, the more catastrophic the necessary collapse of its large scale systems.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1487950 << for a brief spell only? i think there now may exist some inference systems which work on floating point / probabilistic truth-values? weasel words, would need to check, but wouldn't have thought it to have been a "brief spell" only?
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 13:20 asciilifeform: the 'fuzzy logic' thing was in style in '80s for a brief spell
mircea_popescu: (and in this sense, i view eg the debian key disaster thing as collapse, exactly like the tay bridge failure say)
Framedragger: alsoalso, graham priest's paraconsistent logic is an interesting thing.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: to an extent we have this. consider naggum's c++ liars essay.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform as an ideal output, i would like a debian distro that says "you can't possibly mean to make these keys out of 32k sets ?!"
shinohai: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1487702 <<< Since he handily provided his twitter I decided to troll xD
mircea_popescu: which essay is that again ?
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 09:44 deedbot: [Trilema] The life and times of one Phil Daian, aspiring nigger & apprentice cocksucker - http://trilema.com/2016/the-life-and-times-of-one-phil-daian-aspiring-nigger-apprentice-cocksucker/
diana_coman: mircea_popescu> nothing actionable or useful that i can discern. just the simple observation that a) code the size of the body of work of respected past intellectuals is not maintainable by teams or individuals, while the writings were maintainable by the author solo ; b) the correct solution to scale is not increase in rigidity, but flexibility. which is how skyscrapers work or japan defends from earthquakes. <- fwiw the diffe
diana_coman: rence there is that "team of individuals" is pointedly not the original author
mircea_popescu: shinohai bet you he's gonna swallow the "nigger" thing without looking.
diana_coman: in same vein, a team is not able to maintain the body of work of respected past intellectual, sure
asciilifeform: and diana_coman has it.
diana_coman: add to that the fact that the equivalent would be not exactly trying to maintain the work, but rather trying to maintain some layers of slime built on top of the work
Framedragger: (in paraconsistent systems, they try to "contain" cases when `p && ~p`. normally by principle of explosion you can prove anything (`1. p. 2. p || q [from 1, disjunctive addition.] 3. ~p [given.] 4. q [from 2. and 3.]`). these systems remove one or another inference rule (e.g. that p || q may follow from p, or double negation, or something else), or *suspend* it, in the fashion that some equations may have complex numbers as intermediary
mircea_popescu: diana_coman irl it worked as, to quote famous wilde tidbit, "i leave it to you to to fix the here's and there's".
Framedragger: values, but the imaginary terms get eventually nulled before the final solution.
mircea_popescu: so really, was team. author, editor, 2 people at least.
asciilifeform: and yes there is a transition-to-layers-of-slime point where the programmers give up on simplification and start piling up crud
diana_coman: sure, but they did not touch the core
Framedragger: ^ maybe not even related that much, just intersting
diana_coman: leave the GUI to the team, sure
mircea_popescu: diana_coman this is a dubious assertion, in the same vein we could say "ian murdock did the work, rest did gui" or w/e.
mircea_popescu: maybe it stands, but seems unreliable.
mircea_popescu: from my brief stint in publishing, i wouldn't swear the expert editor is less a contributor in the average book than the average author.
mircea_popescu: but then again that's the sort of why an' wherefore the kids think i'm an asshole.
asciilifeform: ^ because human text is low-entropy.
asciilifeform: go and cut from program. if well-written, will take you whole life.
diana_coman: I don't quite follow your analogy there I think
diana_coman: have code editors, sure
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you go cut from shakespeare!!!1
diana_coman: if that's what you mean
asciilifeform: (if satoshi's - a few months)
Framedragger: (what's nice with these paraconsistent systems is that they may not crumble down when encountering some or other kind of logical paradox.) </weird-rant>
mircea_popescu: you know, by the way, re my recent failed attempt to interact with the master, i found last week a notation from romania's genius poet EXPLAINIG THE SAME THING ?
mircea_popescu: apparently this was known by 2oyear olds in the 1800s. nuts.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: it's a dodge.
diana_coman: I never quite got what you had so much against eminovici really
asciilifeform: Framedragger: you don't get a free pass from godel by using floating point.
diana_coman: that's how it came across at least then
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: which same thing?
mircea_popescu: diana_coman i can't stand his conventional bullshit. he dared criticise (young) caraqiale for "poor morals" in plays ? the schmuck borrowed on his income months in advance to dress up and bullshit like that. he has a massive vein of "never got over mom" that i loathe in writers.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: not necessarily from godel! some kind of diagonalization may be reconstructed, i'm sure/heard. but being able to handle some classes or problems is interesting in itself.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "can't cut from shakespeare"
mircea_popescu: i shall produce exact quote, a sec
Framedragger: asciilifeform: tackling godel's two theorems is another kind/level of undertaking, prolly...
mircea_popescu: actually, ima have to translate this. will put on trilema in a second. also gotta re-read this naggum... you folks have overwhelmed my real time processing, ima go bsod now and bbl.
asciilifeform goes for coffee , also bbl
Framedragger back to $work..
deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 154544665855970963 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'almoutamahid <abdelilahalmoutamahid@gmail.com>; ' - http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/90BC6D88C26403285CF4A89F6E0501D31AD908A598A81BB09E41E0C981C24091
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ok, the "fucking hell who ever heard of a program that wants you to specify what you don't know" essay. i recall it, and imo it is very much substantial to my complaint.
mircea_popescu: MOST of the power of trilema relies on exactly this, that I don't have to IFDEF and DECLARE and whatnot.
mircea_popescu: which allows me to say intelligent things in such a way that pyramids many sayings deep can be effortlessly constructed, retain meaning and even nurture new meaning, and in general have all the attributes of art.
mircea_popescu: if a software project did as much importing as the average trilema article does, it'd be openssh.
Framedragger: this somehow reminded me of erlang's "don't be afraid to fail / fail fast" approach: for something to fail / cause exception is OK, always make sure there's something supervising and containing the failure etc. https://tkowal.wordpress.com/2015/10/20/failing-fast-and-slow-in-erlang-and-elixir/ (may not be a great writeup, but has l33t pic with triangle)
mircea_popescu: that's kind-of a different level though. what does it even mean "to fail".
mircea_popescu: when i teach my not-so-new-anymore slavegirls how to think, a large chunk consists of "interpreting what is said" which all revolves around "build tree of all possible meanings, prune all meanings contradicted".
mircea_popescu: it's shocking how little the school system does to teach anyone anything. but anyway - what the program MEANS should be decided on the basis of what it can't possibly fucking mean,
mircea_popescu: and i don't think it is ever acceptable for machine to make shitty rsa keys "because that's what i told it to".
mircea_popescu: if slavegirl attempts this she gets double-whipped.
Framedragger: yeah that's a different point, sure, and a good one it seems
Framedragger: the case with rsa keys - it would be very difficult to write it up / interpret it as per your idea though, i think? unless the case was explicitly declared before, and that would break the whole idea (negative meaning, not (only) positive/exhaustive meaning)
mircea_popescu: and no, this isn't cheap "do what i mean"-ism. when i say "the flower is blue and round is the sky", the notion that the flower is ROUND is invalidated not by what I mean, but by what everything means.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger it's clear to me that in present computing paradigm it is outright impossible.
mircea_popescu: which is why i'm saying, there's not much actionable here. but just because i dunno what to do with it doesn't mean i don't get drunk and dream.
Framedragger: fosho.
Framedragger: ..some kind of generic knowledge tree processing thing / semantic systems. someone must have made a small stab at this.. i mean there are natural language processing toolkits which build up context and work beyond straightforward syntax.. i don't know how well they are doing
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 14:13 mircea_popescu: it's shocking how little the school system does to teach anyone anything. but anyway - what the program MEANS should be decided on the basis of what it can't possibly fucking mean,
asciilifeform: 'can't possibly mean' is not a thing
asciilifeform: because meaning of a program is not contained wholly in the program.
mircea_popescu: because the major trick here is - what i say isn't ACTUALLY ambiguous. it just requires very fine interpretation, which meshes well with a machine. in any case meshes well with the epistemic process that makes people engineers,
Framedragger: 1. all turtles are green. 2. bob is a turtle. 3. bob is red. => spit out contradiction / choice of rejecting one of these. if additional premises are made which connect to the former ones, then decide which to reject quantitatively, or something.
deedbot: [Trilema] Eminescu. Totally a genius. - http://trilema.com/2016/eminescu-totally-a-genius/
mircea_popescu: as proven by the fact that the girls in question start acting like one even if not specifically trained to be one.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform diana_coman ^ bit from earlier.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "can't possibly mean" is totally a thing.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: 'prolog' is a thing. but seldom used for everyday programming because it removes the programmer's ability to reason about COST
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not a thing the machine can ever resolve.
mircea_popescu: why not ?
Framedragger: asciilifeform: so i've heard! never approached it, sadly / to my detriment
asciilifeform: because how the fuck does machine know what the operator wants
asciilifeform: other than by being UNAMBIGUOUSLY told.
mircea_popescu: meaning is not a matter of want.
mircea_popescu: what things can't mean is a matter OF CONTEXT
mircea_popescu: not of "want". it's not a product of intension.
asciilifeform: didn't we ~just the other day~ have a 'hole hawg' thread ?
asciilifeform: complete with mr mold's wolfram alpha essay
mircea_popescu: we did. it probably explains a lot of my sufferances.
asciilifeform: where we conclusively, imho, nailed the 'smart tools' idiocy
mircea_popescu: nevertheless - that shit's written in c
asciilifeform: tool should be as predictable as possible.
mircea_popescu: of course it dun work.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform my slavegirls aren't tools, they're people. why should my computers be tools ? i've only two hands.
asciilifeform: i expect mircea_popescu doesn't use gurlz as hammers either
asciilifeform: or as can openers.
asciilifeform: or scissors.
Framedragger: ..prolly easier to wait for generic a.i. and then just have it mesh with brainz, heh.
asciilifeform: and doesn't fuck hammers, conversely.
mircea_popescu: (ftr, this school of "Slave should be tool - simple as possible" exists, and its product is outrageous and ridiculous by turns. they do think themselves "the real" bdsm people though, against the method-acting larger set (hint : if the word "scene" is mentioned - method actors))
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform I DO! ALL THE TIME!
mircea_popescu: "open that can!" "Smash that wall!" etc.
asciilifeform: open with bare hands ?
mircea_popescu: i do not specify!
mircea_popescu: which is the fucking point.
mircea_popescu: ask me "with what", get to see my samuel l jackson face
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there is pretty rich literature of tales re djinn etc who carry out literal words to comical disaster.
asciilifeform: quite anticipatory of computer.
mircea_popescu: dearth of stories of whipped djinn
mircea_popescu: as in the joke with the romanian police and the bear, "give me this djinn for a week"
mircea_popescu: now, it is real easy to grant that "machine can't resolve because irl it takes more neurons than there's atoms in the cpu". but this is a total cop-out, i can string together an infinity of computers, as bitcoin has shown.
mircea_popescu: and yes, the google "ai" rule based bs is giving a bad name to all this, but abstracting the usg.idiots for a second, before we throw out the bath
Framedragger: there was a post about statistical/ML approach vs. (one of) rule-based approach(es) just recently, i haven't read it yet, http://norvig.com/chomsky.html (inb4 ad hominem alf's norvig iz usg pawn :P )
Framedragger: (recent linking/post, content itself not new)
Framedragger: (e.g. i agree with chomsky's "There is a notion of success ... which I think is novel in the history of science. It interprets success as approximating unanalyzed data." which does indeed suck.)
mircea_popescu: $s "amelia bedelia"
mircea_popescu: dude seriously everything's in the log.
mircea_popescu: anyway. currently computers seem to me a sort of AB - alpha.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger for the record, you found the http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-22#1486741 reference.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-22 04:02 mircea_popescu: yeah. but that doesn't change the fact the ~only intellectual in the entire north of the continent is that old jew talking to himself in a room.
diana_coman: imo you are on to something else there; computers at the moment are tools, hence programmed like tools and this is not something one can solve at programming level (hey, let's start training computers now and they will learn!)
mircea_popescu: diana_coman more importantly : they are tools, programmed as tools, expected to deliver untool likethings.
diana_coman: so that last part might be the trouble, true
mircea_popescu: if it's a fucking tool why the fuck are youtrying to build a 3mn loc item in it!
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: hahaha :D such reference. ok
mircea_popescu: Framedragger i have yet to see him talk other than by himself in a room. were you hear for the discussion of brin the elder ?
mircea_popescu: similar, just, at least he has the math.
Framedragger: no, unfortunately it seems
mircea_popescu: Framedragger ever read about the famous sheep ?
diana_coman: it's actually part of why I quickly became disenchanted with the whole AI school (well, all of them really): I don't get why the focus on *always right* when no living intelligence (which is supposedly the model in any case) is *always* right
mircea_popescu: diana_coman this is a very good point.
diana_coman: the rule-based thing is an atrocity and prolog urgh
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: do you mean Dolly the cloned sheep? i've heard of it, but only just
Framedragger: ah, no; will read (prolly later / work)
mircea_popescu: it'll wait.
Framedragger: is that related to this currently discussed notion of "insisting on hard non-failing truth == unrealistic autism" (with which i agree)?
diana_coman: I guess the thing is that if one abandons this ideal of always true, the question that arises immediately is why then not train actual people in the first place instead of building something else to..train like people
mircea_popescu: Framedragger nah, related to the "alone in room"
mircea_popescu: diana_coman and the answer is obvious : something else dun menstruate.
mircea_popescu: which is how men ended up in the workforce in the first place
mircea_popescu: otherwise, i can't imagine who'd ever have wanted men for any purpose.
mircea_popescu: (i dunno how much you know / care about early industrialization - but it was ~all women)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1488107 << it isn't about 'moar neurons', but simply that it requires info which the machine ~doesn't have~
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 14:26 mircea_popescu: now, it is real easy to grant that "machine can't resolve because irl it takes more neurons than there's atoms in the cpu". but this is a total cop-out, i can string together an infinity of computers, as bitcoin has shown.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why not ?
asciilifeform: (if it ~had~, you would not need to program it)
asciilifeform: the whole point of programming is to drive home the idea that 'i need prime p, with p-1 and p+1 having large composites, and q.... ' etc to the box.
mircea_popescu: here's the problemn with this : at first, girl "just doesn'tr have" information on how to bake pastries. then she gets beaten (rarely), corrected (often, but in specific punctual detail) and made to work. then, magically, and i can't underscore this enough, MAGICALLY, she now HAS!!! the information.
mircea_popescu: whence did it come ?
mircea_popescu: she fucking had it from the get-go. this is inescapable.
mircea_popescu: the information is fucking there.
asciilifeform: where ? in the zygote ?
mircea_popescu: computers, unlike people, have the advantage that no subjective "reasons" to blind self to it (~= menstruation)
mircea_popescu: no, it just floats around as a sea of ether
Framedragger: surely said girl engaged in some kind of feedback process with the environment, internalizing some model which fits reality; so not wholly contained?
mircea_popescu: in this sense no item is ever contained, including anything made by texas instruments.
asciilifeform: $google how to bake pastry
deedbot: http://allrecipes.com/recipes/346/bread/pastries/ << Pastry Recipes - Allrecipes.com | http://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-bake-store-bought-frozen-puff-pastry-101067 << How To Bake Store-Bought Frozen Puff Pastry — Cooking Lessons ... | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0Sa6dauHBM << How to :Puff Pastry Recipe - YouTube
asciilifeform: ^ satisfied? or too many turds floating in the sea? or wut
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i chose it specifically because it can not be "conceptually" learned.
mircea_popescu: your pastries will suck. until they don't.
diana_coman: by this model, I'd say that those poor students I failed were actually trying to apply exactly mircea_popescu 's approach!
mircea_popescu: and THEN you will be able to bake, correctly, pastry you never even learned HOW to bake
mircea_popescu: because it is clear to you what X means.
Framedragger: girl internalizes environment which may include the beater who is giving her feedback, no?
mircea_popescu: diana_coman likely, which is the irony here. you can either have schooling for boys, or for girls.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: optimization problem, where the solver already has very good approximate values for all the params.
Framedragger: i.e. the beater's aesthetics, say
mircea_popescu: once they mixed the genders they fucked it all up. THAT is why "stundent quality is on downspiral"
mircea_popescu: Framedragger i don't know shit about making pastries.
diana_coman: thing is: the results were atrocious really
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if your gurl had to figure out how to grow and harvest wheat, from first principles, you will have no pastry in this millenium
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's fine, computer will outlast the millenium.
diana_coman: that thing when it *works* as in...now, this particular thing, don't change anything or it might all fall down
mircea_popescu: besides, i can buy more.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman heh.
mircea_popescu: still, it's how boys learn. stupid, i know.
mircea_popescu: but while i don't for a second suspect you of gender politics, nevertheless, there you go, you did it to them. what now.
diana_coman: uhm, they got beaten (once), corrected punctually etc so they are just learning
diana_coman: perfect
mircea_popescu: i guess so huh :D
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: hmm; but you did supply her with some "aesthetics" feedback, maybe even a floating point value, as in, "better/worse than before", perhaps
Framedragger: still external info
mircea_popescu: no dude, correctly made pastry is this self-obvious thing.
Framedragger: dunno tho
mircea_popescu: once you can make 'em it's darn obvious, and before it's impossibru and "vague" and throws fit
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the difficult bit is not merely in machine lasting millenium, but in the problem it is solving lasting anywhere near...
Framedragger: so you're saying that this was purely incentive based thing, no external environment info
mircea_popescu: well... at least at first. that doesn't go so well so throws fit internally.
asciilifeform: $s great slow kings
asciilifeform: motherfucker
asciilifeform: IT IS IN THE FUCKING LOGS
mircea_popescu: Framedragger no "peculiar" external info. obviously we're not dealing in spherical chickens here, so.. the sun lights all heads.
asciilifeform: can we ditch the case-sensitive bullshit plox ?
asciilifeform: grep -i "foo" compliance plox
Framedragger: asciilifeform: no it ain't
mircea_popescu: grep has case sensitivity ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: by default
Framedragger: by default yah
Framedragger: i mean you do sometimes want case sensitivity yknow; i guess question's regarding the default
mircea_popescu: aaanyways
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform was it the space ? hm ?
Framedragger: asciilifeform: it throws 1 result which is when you searched for it, now..
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: sure.. well hm, i can see what you mean; dunno if example is sound, but i prob know even less about pastry heh
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope. not the space. and the link is literally a repost
asciilifeform: so it ~is~ in the logz
asciilifeform: june 14.
asciilifeform: phf's search dun find it.
mircea_popescu: but to the more general point, Framedragger : the master's job is mostly to encourage and support the young woman TO ACTUALLY MAKE CHOICES. which is to say, exactly to distance herself from learned helplessness of the nature of diana_coman 's above mentioned " don't change anything or it might all fall down"
mircea_popescu: yes, it's broken, NOTICE it's broken, eat the scrambled egg, try again.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 14:56 asciilifeform: http://www.lib.ru/ZELQZNY/TheGreatSlowKings.txt << for ze logz.
asciilifeform: ^ but not findable
mircea_popescu: $s TheGreatSlowKings
a111: 6 results for "TheGreatSlowKings", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=TheGreatSlowKings
asciilifeform: i think it dun like urls.
mircea_popescu: $s "SlowKings"
mircea_popescu: $s "slowKings"
asciilifeform: why why why can't we have grep -i "string".
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: ACK, and that is cool. i do understand re. master actually working *against* learned helplessness models, at least an *actual* master anyway hm
asciilifeform: anyway..
phf: asciilifeform: i'll fix it next. since it's all write from scratch i just need to figure out how to case insensitive boyer moore
diana_coman: that was not about helplessness though, but about the fact that a cake which is a cake only when you look at it from a certain angle, in a certain light, is NOT A CAKE
mircea_popescu: dude i have nfi, you keep saying this, then phfg comes on it turns out we do, then you say it again
mircea_popescu: diana_coman certainly not a cake. but it also has this passive "don't touch the instruments" educative value. womenz particularly vulnerable to this crap.
asciilifeform: phf: upcasing utf8 is a heavy op, so i suspect that it will be gnarly
phf: asciilifeform: i'm not going to solve it for general case :>
diana_coman: yes, women care more because they bare the costs mainly and mostly
phf: ascii, cyrillic, greek, accents
mircea_popescu: hey, put koi to whatever equivalency in there while at it phf
asciilifeform: diana_coman: bear the costs? or double-entendre intentional
diana_coman: quite intentional, yes
mircea_popescu: o it was ?!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1488220 << this is a workable way to teach cooking, or perhaps music, but not, say, flying
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 14:51 mircea_popescu: yes, it's broken, NOTICE it's broken, eat the scrambled egg, try again.
diana_coman: it's a bugbear/bare of mine, lol
asciilifeform: or - imho - programming.
asciilifeform: which, it turns out, has more in common with flying than anyone is willing to admit
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why not ? if it fails to learn i just buy another computer.
asciilifeform: in that the mistakes are not guaranteed to be reversible.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: where do we buy a new you, when you spent your whole life buying computers instead of $solving.
mircea_popescu: also, no cooking mistake is EVER reversible. cooking is the paragon of irreversible process with a thermodynamics-supplied seal of certitude.
asciilifeform: bad program can be just as lethal, if more slowly, than dud pilot.
mircea_popescu: you're not taking some of the salt out of the soup, some of the heat out of the steak or anything from anything else.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not reversible from food's pov.
asciilifeform: speaking of the eater.
mircea_popescu: there is no eater.
mircea_popescu: (tbh, good programs and "results oriented" bs are rather orthogonal if not opposed concerns)
asciilifeform: the illusion that 'live and learn, there is endless retakes' is an illusion, just that
asciilifeform: precisely, the 'result before $time t at minimal cost' give you layers upon layers of braindamage.
mircea_popescu: so then, forget the eater.
mircea_popescu: (which, incidentally, is in my professional judgement THE value proposition of free/open source. FORGET THE EATER!)
asciilifeform: my point was that bad programming has just as permanent an effect as bad flying. more so, in fact, as badly flown machine can only kill a busfull of folks, while bad design of program (or machine) can enstupidate generations.
mircea_popescu: if it dun work, wipe it.
asciilifeform: yeah, but somebody has to do it. and you don't get the wasted people back.
mircea_popescu: this is somewhat offset by the grim reality that all people can possibly ever do is waste.
asciilifeform: 'good cake, bad cake, all turns to shit'
asciilifeform: is one possible perspective.
asciilifeform: but everyone who actually sees through this glass has already eaten pistol.
asciilifeform: recall the ruby thread ?
a111: Logged on 2016-06-11 01:23 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480685 << no, this is the problem. a bunch of idiots would have to earn bread different way ; and ben_vulpes would be allowed to do something less idiotic with his time. that's the problem whenever derps get the reins - they drive the ship ashore and someone's stuck fishing it back out.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i see through this glass!
asciilifeform: so what happened, pistol jammed ?
asciilifeform: the i have nfi
mircea_popescu: i'm having a ball, are you kidding ?
asciilifeform: would mircea_popescu still be having a ball if he were spending his life cleaning up ruby garbage ?
mircea_popescu: i suppose i might be the only intelligent male that never felt an inclination to off himself ? why's this so strange!
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: I used to do this for a leaving
thestringpuller: now I clean up Python garbage!
thestringpuller: Oh man, cleaning up PHP garbage was teh worst tho.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform or a better question, "would mircea_popescu still be mircea_popescu if he were not mircea_popescu ???"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope, he'd be one of the 9,999 failed everettescus
diana_coman: ahahah, the advantage of mircea_popescu's favourite approach: there will always be tons of garbage to clean off since a cake eaten is at least eaten, but crappy code is rarely totally obliterated
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller you missed a spot, there's still some php garbage! i just run into some like yest
mircea_popescu: diana_coman word!
mircea_popescu: diana_coman bad code has much more staying power than good code.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: this is what i was trying to get across with the 'bad flying only kills a busful, bad program - potentially everyone' example
asciilifeform: diana_coman: bad program ~shrinks design space~
mircea_popescu: it is easier to understand, which seems a major factor in code survival.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: who 'understands' rails etc. ?
asciilifeform: has NOTHING to do with 'easy to understand'
diana_coman: but why is anyone trying to understand it! they should just bang it into shape , not understand it ffs!!!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i wasn't using the term in your sense!
asciilifeform: and everything to do with cancerous pile of rubbish with 'creates jeeeerbs'
mircea_popescu: "i understand ruby! put it in docker and rub puppett on your clittie!"
asciilifeform: ah, ~that~ 'understand'.
diana_coman: well, maybe understand its outputs, but not the actual code surely, what heresy is this
mircea_popescu: "i understand fridges. open the door!"
asciilifeform: $s the feeling of power
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 13:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "can't cut from shakespeare"
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 15:09 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope, he'd be one of the 9,999 failed everettescus
asciilifeform: all the cuttable 'shakespeares' got cut.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-08 02:10 mircea_popescu: $google 1961 goldsboro crash
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 15:10 asciilifeform: diana_coman: this is what i was trying to get across with the 'bad flying only kills a busful, bad program - potentially everyone' example
asciilifeform: (and notice that folks only mostly gave up cutting ol' william s. quite recently.)
mircea_popescu: i just dunno man...
thestringpuller: coincidentally i'm doing a puppet run right now.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it would have had to trigger full-blown ww3 on all sides to even compare roughly with the damage from microshit alone.
thestringpuller: i love pulling the machine's strings.
mircea_popescu: wouldn't have been impossibru to trigger.
asciilifeform: people have this bias, where being vaporized by nuke is somehow obviously terrible but wasting 50 yrs on ruby is not
mircea_popescu: this bias is warranted.
mircea_popescu: during those 50 years they raise a woman's children by another man.
asciilifeform: if chump ~knew~ this, he would eat nagant
asciilifeform: same as if he ~knew~ for certain that he will do 50 years of rubyschwitz without parole.
mircea_popescu: incidentally re http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1488109 : his D is wrong. there's an unclear qty of statistics used by human brain.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 14:28 Framedragger: there was a post about statistical/ML approach vs. (one of) rule-based approach(es) just recently, i haven't read it yet, http://norvig.com/chomsky.html (inb4 ad hominem alf's norvig iz usg pawn :P )
asciilifeform: the bias is from this ignorance.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the definition of the term "chump" is "he who will not eat nagant under any circumstances"
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I don't think so; it's from being a chump maybe?
mircea_popescu: as per definition, your statement's false.
diana_coman: heh, I guess I'm saying the same thing as mircea_popescu there
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the 'under any circumstances' thing comes precisely from chump's illusion of 'maybe next year i escape'
mircea_popescu: and in any case, the bias is from genetics. the genes you carry have their own little chess game going and you're the pawn. much like... well, everything else.
asciilifeform: there was even a spiffy mircea_popescu article re same
diana_coman: in my experience chumps do not want to escape
mircea_popescu: chumps want to maybe escape.
asciilifeform: what was it, the 'maybe my REAL LIFE will start!111' thing
mircea_popescu: girl explained this to me as to the amorous life of teenagers. they don't want sex as much, she said, with its icky dirty scary reality, as they want the possibility of having it, which is endorphin ladden goodness.
diana_coman: well, my first experience as an employee, while still studying: something goes wrong and I'm the only one to make a fuss about it
diana_coman: discussion afterwards with co-workers
mircea_popescu: they only learn to regret going home to sleep alone after 2osomething
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do we need the winnie pooh quote again
diana_coman: them: why make a fuss? you'll get used to it
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha.
diana_coman: me: I do NOT WANT TO GET USED TO IT
diana_coman: there, difference quite clear I'd say
a111: Logged on 2016-05-05 13:03 asciilifeform: the thermodynamic 'taboo against the coincidence' is described in, oddly enough, winnie pooh! '"Well," said Pooh, "what I like best," and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1488354 << imho this is one of the things that distinguishes actual people from the cow folk - actual people have a concrete conception of ~wanting to be a specific thing~
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 15:19 diana_coman: me: I do NOT WANT TO GET USED TO IT
asciilifeform: and making effort over own pig-brain
mircea_popescu: i don't have a specific conception of wanting to be anything in particular.
mircea_popescu: moreover, that makes the bearer wide open to all sorts of manipulation.
asciilifeform: but mircea_popescu had a number of pretty clear not-wants-to-be.
diana_coman: I only had a very clear idea of what I do NOT want really; at least when presented with the thing
asciilifeform: e.g., jwz 'family man'
asciilifeform: and other monstrosities
mircea_popescu: well in the sense i don't want to be a woman
mircea_popescu: i... aren't.
asciilifeform: on the surface jwz also 'aren't'
asciilifeform: but here we are
mircea_popescu: i can't say i've ever spent any mental time aiming not to be jwz.
asciilifeform: or aiming not to be a slug
mircea_popescu: then again maybe that goes on while i sleep
diana_coman: I really had no idea of what I wanted to be or even do; maybe what you mean is that people have basically some sort of personal ethics and they stick to them come what may
asciilifeform: having spine will do that
diana_coman: as opposed to ...floating around whatever
mircea_popescu: anyway. it's clear that "wanting to be" eg "writer" is how the aspie 14%, the worthless but ambitious, useful idiots are recruited
mircea_popescu: socialist state or no socialist state, they're the wanna-bes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a good bit of aptitude in, e.g., weight lifting, i suspect, is simply having a dull sense of the pain involved in effort
mircea_popescu: "simt enorm si vaz monstruos" lol.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you have the 'karla from california' article link handy ?
mircea_popescu: yeah lessee
asciilifeform: ^ the example of opposite of what i was describing.
mircea_popescu: she seems rather chill and easy going neh ?
mircea_popescu: (ftr, there's an entire subculture of these, on west coast. you can fill a 2 acre pool estate with them in bikinis, they'll swiggle around while the pot lasts.)
asciilifeform: 'easy going' like shit floating down a river.
mircea_popescu: hey. works. has worked. will continue to work.
asciilifeform: works in the strict biological sense.
mircea_popescu: i'm sorry, what ?
asciilifeform: the cows sometimes - rarely - birth people. or they would still be living in trees, in strictly ecologically sustainable with bare hands sort of numbers.
mircea_popescu: if they do or if they don't... i dun think they'll notice.
asciilifeform: surely not.
mircea_popescu: so therefore... mooooot point.
asciilifeform: i asked amoeba once if he minded, he didn't say nuffin.
mircea_popescu: a queermoeba lol
thestringpuller: genderqueermoeba
mircea_popescu: clearly, won teh war with terrorists.
asciilifeform: the terrorists won.
asciilifeform: in 1776.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the whole thing is a "gun control" ie, make the us as "immigrant"-friendly as rotterham, uk. bullshit.
mircea_popescu: but, funny,
asciilifeform: incidentally rumours of a good chunk of the gay bar corpses having 9mm police holes in'em continue to circulate.
mircea_popescu: why'd police shoot up a gay bar ?
asciilifeform: the one they blew a hole in the back of ?
asciilifeform: and then fired into ?
mircea_popescu: oh that one
asciilifeform: aha. that one.
mircea_popescu: well... did the muslim terrorist at least shoot all the black victims ?
asciilifeform: similar to the day care where 2 men in camo went in, machine gunned, left, leaving autistic tard in their place with empty rifle, then caught in the woods, 'questioned', let go.
asciilifeform: (sandy hook)
a111: Logged on 2016-06-15 03:15 asciilifeform: ;;later tell BingoBoingo https://pp.vk.me/c636216/v636216329/1018c/a3teM2ELOb8.jpg << supposedly, the hole blown by police at orlando postal. notice the police bullet marks.
mircea_popescu: you can tell caliber from that ?
asciilifeform: but can tell ~direction~
asciilifeform: that is, there is not a weapon that will produce these if fired from inside.
mircea_popescu: seems there's a peashooter and a .45 involved
mircea_popescu: either that or the drywall's pretty shitty
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the orlando police carry h&k mp5
asciilifeform: they were prominently displayed in some of the earlier releases.
mircea_popescu: how did they do the ones towards the bottom ?
asciilifeform: thing is 'garden hose'
asciilifeform: like schmeisser.
asciilifeform: (made by same folks)
mircea_popescu: seems like a pretty shiutty choice. bad weapon all around : low caliber shitty ammo for hard targets, poor accuracy and overpenetration for soft targets
mircea_popescu: who came up wit this idea.
asciilifeform: americans. during prohibition.
asciilifeform: when they decided that nailing whole crowd was a-ok
mircea_popescu: tommygun's almost better.
asciilifeform: it is ~equivalent.
asciilifeform: same basic idea.
asciilifeform: ideal weapon for bullying a crowd, guarding concentration camp, etc.
mircea_popescu: so the idea that the very much "machine gun fired by bozo" line on the bottom is... ricochet ? or wtf ?
mircea_popescu: that can't be 9mm. really it can't be 38 either, looks like a 22
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: cement isn't paper
asciilifeform: fractures.
mircea_popescu: (why by bozo ? because he fired 7 in a row and has miserable enough control of the gun that he swings left-right etc)
asciilifeform: Official Truth is that mr snackbar was inside. police dynamited hole, and - Officially - waited for ~him~, rather than victims, to emerge, then fired
mircea_popescu: yeah but i mean compare those marks with the tank machine gun lookiung holes above
asciilifeform: in order for mr. snackbar to make any of the pictured holes, he would have had to climb out, police - cheering him on from behind his back, while he fired back into the hole.
mircea_popescu: well that may well be.
mircea_popescu: hey, i'm no ballistics expert, but seriously, those holes all made by same tool ?
asciilifeform: which is even lulzier than 'police blew hole then shot everything that moved'
mircea_popescu: i guess it could be that the bottom came in at a very wide angle, which in iutself is kinda stupid, but the marks are too round for that.
mircea_popescu: aaaanyway
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: same tool. ever notice that even at the range, the holes in the paper have different shapes ? esp. at max distance ? the bullet - tumbles.
mircea_popescu: but this isn't paper.
asciilifeform: also has own fractures.
mircea_popescu: but they're not randomly distributed! the 7 light marks on bottom clearly came from one burst.
mircea_popescu: the mega dent up right of hole came from, likely, a howitzer.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: Officially (tm) a wall-breaching grenade, purpose-made
asciilifeform: (standard, apparently, police gear in usaschwitz, now.)
asciilifeform: and this apparently is a MAGICAL wall that doesn't shower folks with frags behind it when you blow it up....
mircea_popescu: how about mega-dent up left close to hole ? also ?
asciilifeform: also. at least 5 grenades.
mircea_popescu: and who are the pink shirt faggots ? police ?
asciilifeform: probably journarasts
mircea_popescu: uniformed ?!
mircea_popescu: oh i forgot, navajo culture.
asciilifeform: and Only A Terrorist Would Ask (TM) (R) how one can blow 5+ grenade holes in a cement wall, clean through, without fragging any of the hundreds of schmucks hiding behind it
mircea_popescu: well maybe it was storage room
asciilifeform: storage room from which all of the survivers emerged ?
asciilifeform: in single-file, with mr snackbar at the lead ?
trinque: thought it was a bathroom
asciilifeform: Officially.
mircea_popescu: trinque looks like a shitth broom by the piping
asciilifeform: the published floor plan showed whole bar having GIGANTIC public toilet in the back half
asciilifeform: where, apparently, they customarily fuck
mircea_popescu: this is how it works yes. gotta have fuckroom or is not a bar, and if not a bar not a nighlife.
asciilifeform: (the practice dates to at least turing's time, there is a monument near the toilet he used)
trinque: yeah that's not super unlikely at a gay bar
mircea_popescu: at A BAR.
mircea_popescu: srsly, you people never fuck "on the first date" girl you met at disco ?
trinque: certainly have, but elsewhere
trinque: though the room would be more convenient
trinque: most music venues have a piss stained closet with a line a mile long
mircea_popescu: room has drawbacks. toilets - easy to clean. the shag gets dubious while the tile stays... white. ish.
mircea_popescu: (but yes, this is at least 50% of why girl has to wear heels and be tall to begin with. 50% of the rest is the leyla black. and other such things)
mircea_popescu: wait, the QUEERS are on high alert ?
mircea_popescu: should they also get a govt uniform ? be in goose-step with the times ?
mircea_popescu: what color alert anyway, pink ?
asciilifeform: anyway the police are useful idiots in this play.
asciilifeform: they would happily dynamite the entire building if they could plausibly dress it up as 'perp did it'
asciilifeform: as it was, they picked grenades over chancing mr snackbar's bullet.
asciilifeform: this is how cops ended up with full auto weapons to begin with, incidentally
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is judicious. all described in the http://trilema.com/2015/strategy-for-the-antisocial-struggle/
asciilifeform: aha, precisely that one
mircea_popescu: they cost. lots. bystanders - cheaper.
asciilifeform: cheaper still considering that usg will pin ALL of the corpses on mr snackbar.
asciilifeform: (who, for all i know, scored 0 personally)
mircea_popescu: well, the guy who was playing counterstrike and had fambly killed certainly scored 0 personally.
trinque: that'd be quite a lot of people being usg agents claiming to witness him shooting people
asciilifeform: trinque: firing.
trinque: certainly both he and the cops shot people
trinque: anything else is an absurd stretch
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so he fired and missed ?
asciilifeform: recall, last bloke who (we were told) emptied 3 clips into crowded cinema, scored... 9 ?
trinque: this one worked private security neh?
asciilifeform: the 'batman' incident
trinque: had to have been able to hit *one*
mircea_popescu: what gun did he have ?
trinque: sig sauer mcx
mircea_popescu: well, bar's crowded, gun's alright, he's gotta have managed at least a few.
asciilifeform: mr snackbar's ? or the batman one
trinque: snackbar
asciilifeform: btw recall the hollywood shootout (same one as in mircea_popescu's article) ?
asciilifeform: 2 full-auto rifles, 1,100 rounds, 0 dead crowd.
asciilifeform: random fire dun hit much in a 3d world.
asciilifeform: i propose that mr snackbar's score would have been nearly same if he had fired blanks.
trinque: so g4s does no weapons training? (former employer)
trinque: oddly same company that spun off a subsidiary that was running guantanamo
asciilifeform: trinque: in usa private guards, typically, get - sometimes - a little pistol training.
asciilifeform: speaking here of ordinary, unremarkable security co., as in the kind who drive cash wagons etc.
asciilifeform: (rather than 'academe' etc.)
trinque: I'll have to do moar googling, but I'd expect a company that was running guantanamo would be closer to mercs than mall cops
trinque: could of course have both under one roof
asciilifeform: what - if any - to believe re mr snackbar's Official biography, is matter of taste.
trinque: if they are mercs, it leans me more tinfoil-hat than you've expressed, even..
asciilifeform: i can easily see the idiot signing up to 'fire some blanks, scare some folk'
asciilifeform: phf: log 404?????????
trinque: there was the same "multiple shooters" chatter around orlando as many other events
trinque: who knows wtf happened
asciilifeform: they wouldn't ever send 1 bloke.
asciilifeform: (what if he turns tail?)
asciilifeform: this is elementary.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell phf log is down ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
trinque: G4S has previously been accused of improperly vetting its employees. In 2009, Danny Fitzsimons, a former British paratrooper and employee of a G4S subsidiary, killed two colleagues in Iraq, claiming to be “the antichrist” and saying he “must satisfy” his “bloodlust.” << wouldn't blow my mind that $lizardhitler has a drug that induces this
trinque: or they just find loose cannons and groom them for a while
asciilifeform: trinque: the latter worked, since at least hammurabi.
asciilifeform: no need for dope.
asciilifeform: (the dope is for when you need minister of finance whateverthefuck to start spewing rubbish on camera, or jump from his window with only mild assistance, etc)
trinque: https://twitter.com/bitfinex/status/746023060122275840 << maybe changed / fucked up their API
shinohai: https://petertodd.org/2016/ethereum-dao-bailout-vote <<< "Democracy is the only way people!"
asciilifeform: log still dead.
asciilifeform: 'I’ve heard reports that the first part of Vitalik’s fork proposal has already happened: miners have frozen the funds taken from the DAO with a soft-fork, which means that miners are blacklisting any transaction that moves those funds, as well as refusing to mine on top of blocks containing transactions moving those funds. That’s not very hard to do as - like Bitcoin - Ethereum mining is sufficiently centralized that it only ta
asciilifeform: kes the co-operation of two or three people to achieve the majority of hashing power necessary to freeze funds' << lel
asciilifeform: usg coin has 100% usg-compliant minerz? nyooz at 11.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu what would it cost to have the magic eth tx mined ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: the peter todd turd is a true classic of its genre: 'we gotta commit an atrocity. but we first will get CONSENSOOOS!!1111 so then it won't be an atrocity, fuckyou. and btw we control the vertical and the horizontal and all the votez, so fuckyou.x2'
asciilifeform: vox populi, vox dei!1111111111111
mats: have there been any other 1k+ btc 'coin destruction' events like the one orchestrated by counterparty?
asciilifeform: mats: this is probably in the logs, but the log is down
thestringpuller: log 404 eh?
asciilifeform: apparently.
mats: yeah I looked in my log, my search fu is weak
thestringpuller: ;;seen phf
gribble: phf was last seen in #trilema 3 hours, 17 minutes, and 42 seconds ago: <phf> ascii, cyrillic, greek, accents
phf: yes, this is dog
asciilifeform: hi phf . log down??
phf: oh, interesting, that's odd
phf: logger still keeping log..
phf: yeah, i can see :)
phf: killing a couple of threads "fixed" the issues, but i'm not sure what the problem was :/
trinque: what www thinger do you use? hunchenfart?
phf: i'd rather not answer, since i'll be mocked incessantly by mr asciilifeform for it
asciilifeform: eh let's hear it
asciilifeform: lemmeguess
asciilifeform: allegroserve?
phf: worse, araneida
ben_vulpes: > latest patch to source tree from january 2006
ben_vulpes: > still works
ben_vulpes: this is how software should be.
ben_vulpes: and it's *still* too newfangled hipster by some metrics.
asciilifeform: cl-http is the mega-classic (by the nsa bloke who bought symbolics !! iirc) but it had a very strange license which prohibited just about any practical use, and so did not catch on
phf: well, to be fair it's not very good, but it hosted cliki for 10 years, easier to hack on than hunchentoot on account of having simpler design and i'm trying to make it sling byte arrays
phf: (a much harder task in hunchentoot)
phf: i once managed to follow rainer joswig's instructions to bring cl-http up, but i couldn't reproduce it last time i tried
phf: maybe i should see if i can get it working on cmucl and adopt it as my default server, hmmm. it does look hell of overengineered
asciilifeform: i see cmucl as sorta like that system-v unix revival
asciilifeform: great for bedtime reading, but not so hot to run
asciilifeform: naggum had a great piece on these:
asciilifeform: systems which are 'cute when they're baby' but loathesome when mature
phf: you only say that because you think sbcl is somehow "clean". chrodes managed a very neat hack, a build system improvement, that's where neat hacks have ended, and modernization began, but it's not like the legacy cmucl codebase somehow disappeared from sbcl
asciilifeform: it isn't clean at all
asciilifeform: that's the point here
asciilifeform: it is the mature end
asciilifeform: sorta like comparing modern bsds to systemv
asciilifeform: cmucl feels 'clean' but is missing what i consider to be essential functionality (native threads, mainly)
phf: (actually bill newman, not christophe rhodes)
phf: well, native threads were added to sbcl at the expense of good gc
asciilifeform: kinda how i boot up that cute x86 systemv and then notice that it is PALPABLY slow on modern pentium because it lacks ANY disk cache etc.
phf: cmucl doesn't have threads not because it's a baby system. it doesn't have threads because sbcl both made adding functionality of that nature easier and canibalized developers from cmucl
asciilifeform: cannibalized ?
phf: yah
phf: well, tradeoffs that sbcl made are more in line with modern practices, so there was a transition from old and stodgy cmucl to new and shiny sbcl
asciilifeform: (i have nfi - was there money involved ?)
phf: main thing sbcl did is improve build system at the expense of some of the subsystems (an interpret mainly)
phf: which allowed for more rapid development cycles
asciilifeform: for what do we even need the interp?
asciilifeform: it's dross
phf: for repl work.
asciilifeform: my repl worx...
phf: well, then you should continue working with it :)
asciilifeform: but no, i'm actually curious what i might win by using cmucl
phf: i find 1s eval delays unacceptable when i'm in the zone
asciilifeform: (perfectly possible to dev on one while deploying on other!)
phf: right this very moment, probably nothing
asciilifeform: the beauty of actually standardized prog lang
phf: oh, shit, sorry, i'm late for something, i'll pick up this conversation later
asciilifeform: thx for fixing log, phf
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1488111 << the guy's defense, notably, "yes it's collecting butterflies - there's nothing wrong with that" is actually tendentious. it's NOT collecting butterflies. yes, it COULD BE, but i don't see any of that happening. just a bunch of "we have butterflies in this black box, come hear about our weight loss ideas" typically ustarded marketing and "engineering"
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 14:30 Framedragger: (e.g. i agree with chomsky's "There is a notion of success ... which I think is novel in the history of science. It interprets success as approximating unanalyzed data." which does indeed suck.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ethereum difficulty is, if memory serves, ~50TH. so about half that.
mircea_popescu: (it went up by about 4x since last year. hardware's the most expensive part of a scamcoin.)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i didn't say 'cost to 51%'. but to get arbitrary valid tx mined in the face of 'soft fork'
mircea_popescu: but this is what a soft fork is ?
mircea_popescu: ANY soft fork can be unrolled by anyone holding 51%.
mircea_popescu: at any point, also.
asciilifeform: unless there is something radically different re ethercrud vs btc, 51% only gives you doublespend
asciilifeform: what i asked after was the rough equivalent of mining a high-S btc tx.
asciilifeform: (which theoretically could be done for a few btc if you were willing to wait a year)
mircea_popescu: let's follow this. so i mine the next block. 49% guy mines the 2nd. i build on mine.
mircea_popescu: eventually, i own the chain.
mircea_popescu: problem solved. what ?
asciilifeform: i suppose this depends on 'how soft' is the soft fork (are miners merely rejecting 'tainted' tx, or also deliberately orphaning any block which contains one ?)
mircea_popescu: they can do whatever they want. 51% means they don't get to have an opinion.
mircea_popescu: either they build on my blocks or piss off.
asciilifeform: aha, race is to the swift, yeah.
asciilifeform: of course this only works if the 51 is made from solid shitanium, rather than fragmentable (with incentives to defect) cartel
mircea_popescu: 50TH ain't much.
asciilifeform: (e.g., say mircea_popescu issues a tx with a fee consisting of ~whole thing!!)
mircea_popescu: this appears to be a wide open venue.
mircea_popescu: but hey, they'll "fix it".
mircea_popescu: this, incidentally, is EXACTLY what technology debt means. apply bullshit "fixes" as MIT & co bright minds produce,
mircea_popescu: end up stuck forever defending nuclear waste under heavy guard.
mircea_popescu: "anyone who ever gets 51% can fuck up this historical item worth this many mn coins. hurr!"
mircea_popescu: and again, the thing that fascinated me in http://trilema.com/2016/the-life-and-times-of-one-phil-daian-aspiring-nigger-apprentice-cocksucker/ (ie, how marginally inept cs derp behaves as fully fledged us-style "journalist" without specific training) fascinates me again : these derps rebuild the pentagon.
mircea_popescu: how the ever living fuck, they're not smart enough ?! they're not educated enough, not experienced enough,
mircea_popescu: it's almost like the seeds of disaster are by now epigenetic, the population carries them like the swine carry ascari lumbricoides.
asciilifeform tried to calculate approx cost of nuking eth via 51%, but realized that no one has any public idea re what miner costs presently
mircea_popescu: nothing they can do if they wanted.
asciilifeform: but at 2015 prices it would cost roughly what a toyota costs.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform eminently botable.
mircea_popescu: see, eg,
mircea_popescu: $google "how to mine ethereum on a windows pc"
deedbot: https://www.cryptocompare.com/mining/guides/how-to-mine-ethereum/ << How to mine Ethereum on a Windows PC? - Mining Tutorial ... | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKtwSH6inBs << How to Mine Ethereum on a Windows PC -- 6 Steps - YouTube | http://cryptomining-blog.com/5323-quick-guide-on-how-to-mine-ethereum-on-windows/ << Quick Guide on How to Mine Ethereum on Windows - Crypto Mining ...
asciilifeform: there is not nor have ever been a working gpu bot.
asciilifeform spent years trawling through malware samples collected at tremendous expense, in search of ONE
asciilifeform: now calculate how many, say, 4GH winblowz chumps add up to 50TH.
asciilifeform: i'm not certain that qty of boxes has ever been ~sold~
asciilifeform: much less botted.
asciilifeform: more like 100M.
mircea_popescu: mega, giga, tera ?
asciilifeform: let's be generous and give half a megahash (unheard of) per chump
mircea_popescu: understand : ethereum pretends to be 1/10 of btc financially, while it is 1/10`000`000 hash-wise and outright 1/infinity technologically.
asciilifeform: ;;calc (50*10**12) / (500*10**3)
gribble: 100000000
asciilifeform: 100 mil.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the top article contains comment saying guy got 17mh on one core out of 5 on modest card.
asciilifeform: woah i got it exact.
asciilifeform: CARD mircea_popescu
asciilifeform: there are no working gpu bots!
asciilifeform: because drivers.
asciilifeform: we're doing cpu.
mircea_popescu: heh mkay.
mircea_popescu: "yes, under arbitrary restrains you propose on random particular avenue, things can't be done" tm.
asciilifeform: can, physically.
asciilifeform: just that i never turned up (despite considerable effort) a single example.
asciilifeform: BUT let's say you're nsa and write infector for 100+ variants of gpu.
asciilifeform: and distribute.
mircea_popescu: it'd be doubtful you'd need 5.
asciilifeform: then you need, say, 5-10mil.
asciilifeform: there are 100+ wholly incompatible chipsets.
asciilifeform: in circulation.
mircea_popescu: of which the mouthbreathers buy like 3.
asciilifeform: nope, every month they sell new variant.
asciilifeform: konsoomers never notice, only poor schmucks attempting linux etc.
mircea_popescu: what can i tell ya. ~50 th, it's what it is.
asciilifeform: anyway nsa needs 5-10mil. boxes with reasonably fresh gpu.
asciilifeform: asic is cheaper.
asciilifeform: (esp if you pwn a few boxes connected to existing asic...)
mircea_popescu: it's not altogether clear anyone bothered to bake one yet.
asciilifeform: i thought eth used btc workfunction
asciilifeform probably condemned to actually read about the thing isnthe.
asciilifeform: if it doesn't, where did they get 50TH of it...
mircea_popescu: ~10k or so gpu machines ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, they use some shit supposedly memory hard, whatever.
asciilifeform: looks like something vaguely like scrypt.
asciilifeform: prolly running on fpga.
mircea_popescu: which they intend to CHANGE anyway, so it's a bit iffy to bake for the idiots.
asciilifeform: hey hey ho ho THAT's where the fpga farms went.
thestringpuller: oh yea. they want to use proof of stake
asciilifeform predicted that a use would be found for them.
thestringpuller: didn't asciilifeform disprove that already?
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's mostly "cloud" bullshit anyway, so don't regard any of this as peculiarly reliable info.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: very easy to change if they bought up all the old fpga farms.
asciilifeform: the ONE thing they're good for.
asciilifeform: (crackpot alts)
mircea_popescu: sure, sure.
asciilifeform: incidentally i wouldn't rule out a kleptographic hash algo
asciilifeform: (lets you simulate titanic hashrate with barely any effort, if you know the boojum)
asciilifeform: (if there isn't a whole directorate at nsa concerning solely this, they are truly for the dogs)
mircea_popescu: i am actually suspecting something like this exists in ethereum, but meh, not worth the chase atm.
asciilifeform: if it existed, why would they stop at faking 50T
asciilifeform: why not 50P.
asciilifeform: but worth thinking about.
mircea_popescu: well, they have their plans and stupid shit.
asciilifeform: if the ramp ever reaches 1P, we now know how.
mircea_popescu: "if man had kalash, why'd man stop at orlando gay bar"
mircea_popescu: "because man is an idiot."
asciilifeform: kleptohash is interesting concept.
mircea_popescu: in the sense that double-trapdoors interest you
asciilifeform: very much inline with nsa 'NOBUS' ('nobody but us' doctrine.)
asciilifeform: e.g., the dual_ec_drbg incident.
asciilifeform: (and countless others.)
mircea_popescu: an identity crisis with generous sidings of inferiority complex if i ever saw one.
asciilifeform: it leverages what they have. (seats on standards committees, stooges in open sores, etc.)
mircea_popescu: i guess.
asciilifeform: anyway i've only recently grudgingly swallowed hypothesis that ORIGINAL btc pow isn't kleptographic.
asciilifeform: (which is where i even started looking...)
mircea_popescu: wasn't this an ancient thread between us ?
asciilifeform: iirc possibly our first one, in fact.
mircea_popescu: something like that.
mircea_popescu: yeah well.
asciilifeform: 'Mirror makes structured products designed to help private market investors get exposure and hedge risk in late-stage companies.'
asciilifeform: 'The idea behind the original Hashimoto is to use the blockchain as a dataset, performing a computation which selects N indices from the blockchain, gathers the transactions at those indices, performs an XOR of this data, and returns the hash of the result.' << sounds like braindamaged version of mircea_popescu's algo
mircea_popescu: nono, that never happened. hanno boeck published it first!
asciilifeform: apppaaarently
mircea_popescu: anyway, whatevs.
mircea_popescu: i'm in the enviable position of not really needing a cv for anything.
asciilifeform: it is quite impossible: boecks will appear and claim to have done each item, first!11111
asciilifeform: at any rate, 'hash the blocks' is a pretty obvious thing imho, like 'train cars ought to have linked brakes' - both nevertheless omitted for various jwzistic reasons from the originals
Framedragger: from reddit, "The DAO hacker gives an interview" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O5fdMFKEC0 (works for me as i don't understand spanish)
asciilifeform: 'Together women accomplish amazing things. Google supports #LeanInTogether' << google usa front page.
asciilifeform: i misread as 'lenin-ing together'
ben_vulpes: 'lemming together'
mircea_popescu: shinohai so ask him if he really is a virgin.
mircea_popescu: inquisitive orlando survivors wish to know.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger why's it in espanol
jurov: Framedragger: I started fetching the keys shortly after they cleaned them
mircea_popescu: "And yes, it seems clear that an adult speaker of English does know billions of language facts (for example, that one says "big game" rather than "large game" when talking about an important football game). These facts must somehow be encoded in the brain. "
mircea_popescu: fucktards already
mircea_popescu: "an adult who paid attention in calculus does in fact know billions of numeric facts (for example, that one says 45345333×54353453=2464675425984849 rather than 95). these facts must somehow be encoded in the brain."
mircea_popescu: yeah, as a context-free grammar, i'm sure.
mircea_popescu: anyway. the best point in the entire piece is the observation that probabilistic models are much better at making sense of linguistic evolution. for this reason alone they're prolly worth looking into.
asciilifeform: $up diametric
deedbot: diametric voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: hm he oughta be self-powered iirc
asciilifeform: (possibly not awake just now)
asciilifeform: whatever happened to bitcoinalpha
asciilifeform: still in limbo?
asciilifeform: ;;seen mike_c
gribble: mike_c was last seen in #trilema 8 weeks, 1 day, 18 hours, 36 minutes, and 13 seconds ago: <mike_c> at least you won the 'most famous mircea popescu' award - https://duckduckgo.com/?q=mircea+popescu
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1488519 << eh, what crowd. there wasn't a crowd for that one, not within a mile. that's the point of the article.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 16:19 asciilifeform: random fire dun hit much in a 3d world.
mircea_popescu: yeah, still no word.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1488536 << which is why the boston shooting thing is a lot more suspect than the orlando thing.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 16:28 asciilifeform: this is elementary.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1488540 << well, mythical pcp is that drug.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 16:32 trinque: G4S has previously been accused of improperly vetting its employees. In 2009, Danny Fitzsimons, a former British paratrooper and employee of a G4S subsidiary, killed two colleagues in Iraq, claiming to be “the antichrist” and saying he “must satisfy” his “bloodlust.” << wouldn't blow my mind that $lizardhitler has a drug that induces this
mircea_popescu: clinical pcp is a lot more boring, in general, but not universally.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1488544 <<< the beauty of 2nd generation date rape drugs is that the victim will gleefully assist you to eg. rob their car.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 16:34 asciilifeform: (the dope is for when you need minister of finance whateverthefuck to start spewing rubbish on camera, or jump from his window with only mild assistance, etc)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1488551 << gotta love the overload there, really, like bitcoin ? but anyway.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 17:33 asciilifeform: usg coin has 100% usg-compliant minerz? nyooz at 11.
mircea_popescu: there's ~one ethereum trader and ~one ethereum miner, in the sense there's ~one person in any set of clothes. some mites etc also there, but they generally "don't count".
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1488554 << you forgot the best part. "3. and this masturbatory bullshit is THE WORLD ; and your actual world is JUST LIKE THIS."
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 17:36 asciilifeform: the peter todd turd is a true classic of its genre: 'we gotta commit an atrocity. but we first will get CONSENSOOOS!!1111 so then it won't be an atrocity, fuckyou. and btw we control the vertical and the horizontal and all the votez, so fuckyou.x2'
mircea_popescu: anyway ; whatever.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 18:59 phf: i find 1s eval delays unacceptable when i'm in the zone
shinohai: curl http://bitcoinstrings.com/blk00552.txt | grep 'Mircea Popescu' <<< LOL
shinohai: The things one finds rummaging around.
shinohai: Cries for Hard fork abound in the ethereum subreddit due to the new message sent by the hacker via Bitcoin Suisse
asciilifeform: shinohai: link ?
asciilifeform: shinohai: and which block is that in
shinohai: the link is in the curl asciilifeform lemme see which block
thestringpuller: ;;seen trinque
gribble: trinque was last seen in #trilema 3 hours, 55 minutes, and 40 seconds ago: <trinque> what www thinger do you use? hunchenfart?
asciilifeform: shinohai et al: imho if yer gonna mention 'and on reddit...' it is good form to post link, so that folks who refuse to reddit can follow thread.
trinque: hm made by Anduck
trinque: I should hit this thing with a bot and run his bandwidth bill up
asciilifeform: i can't speak for others, but i ain't dredging through kilometre-deep pile of liquid shit.
trinque never forgets
thestringpuller: trinque: is there a sql wot dump?
phf: thestringpuller: sexp hard or go home
Bugpowder: not that i have seen
Bugpowder: only the redditpost
trinque: what reddit post
asciilifeform: another one who assumes that everyone reads motherfucking reddit ?"!
trinque: beatins
trinque: thestringpuller: nah not yet; I'll let you know
trinque: though you may want to use the sexp. I wrote deedbot such that it doesn't actually care much about SQL
trinque: intention being to replace the sql db with a CLOS one when I bother
asciilifeform: saying 'i read on reddit...' without link is quite pointless, you already admitted to habitually fucking farm animals, why not then share whether goat snatch is tight or not, it won't hurt
asciilifeform: for srs, if you don't intend to quit bad habit, 'own' it.
Bugpowder: segwit merged?
asciilifeform: let'em merge 'rm -rf /' for all i care.
asciilifeform: i can't wait for prb to formally break protocol.
asciilifeform: will make my filtration work considerably easier.
thestringpuller: phf: i'll have to write lisp to import it into a new sql db
thestringpuller: which sure, whatever, but not how I wanted to learn lisp
trinque: itt thestringpuller learns to lisp ass first
trinque: sgt asciilifeform hazes another conscript into tears
trinque: thestringpuller: dumping db 1sec
shinohai: For asciilifeform http://archive.is/rbR58 I'm sorry that person trolling the data mines fir a Qntra offends thy person so.
shinohai: Someone's got to do it.
asciilifeform: shinohai: lulzy. buterin drains own shit bottle, rebrands as 'whitehat attacker', then signs message. voila, 'nobody' gives a fuck re original message.
asciilifeform: then, next, plays cloak'n'dagger games with reddit, etc.
asciilifeform: even in shinohai's summary, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1488807 -- it was quite unclear what is 'the hacker'
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 22:15 shinohai: Cries for Hard fork abound in the ethereum subreddit due to the new message sent by the hacker via Bitcoin Suisse
asciilifeform: sorta implied original stunt's protagonist.
thestringpuller: trinque: dl'ing now. i'll import into psql.
asciilifeform: (for anyone not tuned in, 'white hat attacker' was the me-too draining of the remaining dao by buterin et al)
thestringpuller: also thanks trinque much appreciated
shinohai: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1488831 <<< couldn't see it, his holiness aaop has me blocked on twitter.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 22:43 Bugpowder: https://twitter.com/aantonop/status/746108279655301120
asciilifeform: ^ advantage of having no account there
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1488771 << thinking about it... was this coincidental ?!
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 21:05 jurov: Framedragger: I started fetching the keys shortly after they cleaned them
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: enemy can gcd as well as anybody
asciilifeform: i expect that obviously phuctorable keyz will vanish from sks in not too long, likewise.
mircea_popescu: aha, but enemy hasn't, for a while, then we started talking about it and welll...
asciilifeform: they've had eons.
Framedragger: don't get your hopes of grandeur up folks, the timeline may simply fit
Framedragger: from https://blog.benjojo.co.uk/post/auditing-github-users-keys , some keys appear to be revoked a ~year ago; i'm sure further audits and removals followed.
Framedragger: *to have been
mircea_popescu: ah, so then not that shortly.
Framedragger: could have been multiple instances of cleansing, unknown, i guess
mircea_popescu: in fairness i had no idea of this whole bejojo thing, so.
Framedragger: but it's "in the logz!!" :D (first mentioned by me, earlier today) yeah nvm
mircea_popescu: anyway, he says mid 2015. so not that shortly.
mircea_popescu: so did the brits quit or what ?
Framedragger: i literally forgot about that :D
mircea_popescu: check that out, 50.5% leave 49.5% stay ?
Framedragger: huh need to check i guess\
Framedragger: "i should think better about where i live, next time"
Framedragger: i think 5am or 6am BST last results come in or sth
Framedragger: wait you weren't joking
Framedragger: FX traders must be having a field ngiht
mircea_popescu: sundereland is like 61% to elavce
Framedragger: scotland is like 70% for remain iirc? theirs are coming at 5am maybe, but then scotland is smallish
mircea_popescu: but i mean, the predictions throughout are a complete joke. newcastle predicted 66/33 actual 50/49
Framedragger: yeah i know!!
Framedragger: lol at predictions.
asciilifeform: 50/49 exist in usgland where bushes and gores pointlessly antler one another in ritual combat.
asciilifeform: and nowhere else.
mircea_popescu: well, uk.
asciilifeform: which is guess in what.
mircea_popescu: in the shitter ?
asciilifeform: in the red white an' blue shitter.
asciilifeform: since '45 at least.
Framedragger: only with more inbreeding
Framedragger: well, debatable
mircea_popescu: anyway, so what'll an independent uk do ? petition to join puerto rico ?
Framedragger: soo "pound drops after sunderland result", yeah heh
Framedragger: no see they'll renegotiate a better ttip deal, all by themselves
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no such thing - reich wears belt and suspenders before putting on idiot show. they're locked into overlapping treaties to ~same effect as eu membership.
Framedragger: cause they all grown up
asciilifeform: at least where it counts.
asciilifeform: england will certainly remain in the caliphate.
mircea_popescu: heh. treaties aren't binding more than you know, greek debt is
mircea_popescu: SOVEREIGNITY! DEMOCRACY! PEOPLE THEMSELVES!
asciilifeform: they are when they are.
Framedragger: suppose so.
asciilifeform: beoblethemselves.
Framedragger: is australia still fighting marlboro in HK?
mircea_popescu: maybe uk joins syria, iran and labia in new commonwealth.
trinque: isn't that what nationalists do? tear up treaties?
asciilifeform falls down
mircea_popescu: that'd be pretty good, muslims never had an airstrip one.
mircea_popescu: trinque generally, yea.
asciilifeform: libya-->labia and then civil war splits into minora and majora...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform :)
Framedragger: yeah i wonder what imperial rule would do there huh
mircea_popescu: i have a way with words!
Framedragger: my imagination is dry in regards to what interesting things uk could do. maybe uk is simply that glib and uninspiring
mircea_popescu: in other news, google search can't actually see inside facebook can it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not by default iirc.
mircea_popescu: they got a problem don't they ? missing out on most of the shannonized / markov chained "content" production these days
Framedragger: orly, but it used to be able to, no? that's what every shitsite wants, for search engines to index, but not to show same stuff to unregistered visitors (linkedin does that with google vs. users i think..)
asciilifeform: half the point of walled aols is to corral the chumpers into custom search crapolade
Framedragger: sometimes i think that's the _whole_ point
mircea_popescu: Framedragger afair it had a deal back in 2010ish ? with twitter too ; then twitter backed out, was a bit of a scandal, then i gues fb backed out quietly.
Framedragger: oh, interesting, i should check, juicy drama!
mircea_popescu: i've but a vague memory, i keep about as close tabs on this shitshow as i do on github.
mircea_popescu: anyway, facebook apparently also does this "we'll archive by default ANYTHING linked from our pages and serve it from our own servers. this way we don't leak ips etc, and so nobody will ever figure out just how few users we have."
Framedragger: heheheh. some kind of insecurity of "no don't leave our site, look we collected your shit for you!"
Framedragger: that's your shit right there. and some ads. on the shit
mircea_popescu: shinohai anyway, if you're into twitter trolling, can certainly forward http://trilema.com/2016/pizdi/ to #niunamenos
asciilifeform: if only sp folk properly appreciated 'pizdi'
mircea_popescu: well, exactly like pili, except the weak-ass l is replaced by the zdrongezt consonant known to man.
Framedragger off to bed, looking forward to breakfast in unclear political territory (well when was it ever clear)
mircea_popescu: people in my (and i guess also your) part of the world did a lot of traveling around europe while staying home
mircea_popescu: austria, poland, france, russia, etc.
asciilifeform: wats this
asciilifeform: sounds extremely turkish
mircea_popescu: this is actually romanian. gypsy wanna-be sampled a video of orchestra, put his track on top
mircea_popescu: there's an immense pile of these, they all sound the same, it's a whole subculture.
asciilifeform: in other not at all nyooz, http://everything2.com/title/Fast+6502+multiplication << witness the non-pedi-wikia.
mircea_popescu: complete with all the sclerotic tissue of say hollywood, reproduced at scale.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually long multiply as squares and sums is not half of a bad idea, because binary processor.
mircea_popescu: and ALSO exactly homomorphic to why i said division doesn't belong in there.
asciilifeform: i was sitting for last 20min working out whether this is actually faster than treating the nibbles as digits and table-ating the resulting 'bignum mult' or not
asciilifeform: then got distracted.
mircea_popescu: ie a sort of reverse-plouffe ?
mircea_popescu: my baseless guess would be that yes.,
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: soooo... let's split bytes p, q into nibbles, p0, p1; q0, q1; p = p1 + 16p2, q = q1 + 16q2
asciilifeform: p * q = p1q1 + 16p2q1 + 16p1q2 + 256p2q2
asciilifeform: ... = p1q1 + (p2q1 << 4) + (p1q2 << 4) + (p2q2 << 8)
asciilifeform: we never do the last term's shling because we know that it is 2nd byte of result.
asciilifeform: so we have mult table lookups (we made a 16x16, or 256bt mult table for nibblez)
asciilifeform: 4 of'em
asciilifeform: we can do the high nibble of the low byte as one add-with-carry followed by a collective shlykk
asciilifeform: ^ yes this is how to pronounce left-shift per asciilifeform
asciilifeform: (6502 didn't have a barrel shifter, so a shift is a 2-cycle op per bit, assuming num is in accumulator.)
asciilifeform: anyway i'm lazy, ... but it still looks faster than the cited 151 cycle worst-case on e2
asciilifeform: any other 8bit sinners here can tell me wtf i'm missing? mircea_popescu ? gernika ?
asciilifeform: http://everything2.com/title/The+Arms+Race+between+Moths+and+Bats << also interesting, in re parallels with modern aerial combat..
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> "open that can!" "Smash that wall!" etc. << heheh
asciilifeform: 'Two months later, on October 1st, as an adjunct to Lyndon Johnson's War on Poverty, Robert Strange McNamara started inducting into the military men who previously would not have qualified in a million years. He called it Project 100,000 ...'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so you do 4 mults which are iirc 32 cycles each + 3 shifts and 4 additions, for a grand total of ~200
asciilifeform: we do NO MULTS
asciilifeform: because 6502 aint got no mul.
mircea_popescu: p1q1 < ?
asciilifeform: it's a table lookup !
asciilifeform: 4x4 bit.
mircea_popescu: ah right.
mircea_popescu: pretty big table
asciilifeform: 256 byte.
mircea_popescu: can this live in l1 ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has been smoking some strange or wut
asciilifeform: what l1
asciilifeform: it's a 6502
mircea_popescu: no cache
asciilifeform: no cache.
mircea_popescu: so you seriously talk to the bus each time ?
mircea_popescu: this can't be fast.
asciilifeform: which had sram hanging off, so who cared
asciilifeform: like mircea_popescu's z80
mircea_popescu: it's a mhz cpu tho, slow as fuck
asciilifeform: the period ver went to 2Mhz
asciilifeform: today's will happily do 20
mircea_popescu: actually uses exactly the 8080 bus huh
asciilifeform: (yes it is in production. pacemakers.)
asciilifeform: i have a couple here.
mircea_popescu: well i have nfi. all my memories are clearly from a different era wtf 20mhz
asciilifeform: mine also!
asciilifeform: i was astonished as well, last year, to learn that it never died
asciilifeform: same guy even, making it.
mircea_popescu: i seriously think if one proposed 20mhz people'd have been "you'll asphyxiate going that fast"
asciilifeform: as in '70s
mircea_popescu: apparently mos tech actually did the "design" oilpen on paper
mircea_popescu: well, "paper". vellum.
asciilifeform: like most people then.
asciilifeform: celluloid iirc.
asciilifeform: at one point it was blokes rolling black electrical tape onto giant celluloid. hence expression 'tapeout', still used today
asciilifeform: 6502 : ~3.5k transistorz.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-24 01:30 asciilifeform: 'Two months later, on October 1st, as an adjunct to Lyndon Johnson's War on Poverty, Robert Strange McNamara started inducting into the military men who previously would not have qualified in a million years. He called it Project 100,000 ...'
mircea_popescu: actually... your table needn't be as large as 256.
asciilifeform: ah yes!
asciilifeform: half of that.
mircea_popescu: there's no need to look up 3 * 4 and 4 * 3 aha
asciilifeform bangs head on desk
asciilifeform: incidentally
asciilifeform: you don't have to <<4 anything either
asciilifeform: can make a table.
mircea_popescu: shifts are fast tho
asciilifeform: 4 x 2 cycle
asciilifeform: 6502 had no barrrel shifter
mircea_popescu: o really ?
mircea_popescu: still, how the fuck your lookup is going to be less than 8 cycles, you need 2 to call and 2 to return
asciilifeform: each shift was 2cyc instruction (assuming payload is in A reg, otherwise worse)
asciilifeform: lookup is 4 cycle.
mircea_popescu: not 4+io ?
mircea_popescu: i mean in terms of time per se not just cycles.
asciilifeform: remove the rts and inline the procedure to shave cost of the return (which is titanic)
asciilifeform: cycles == time
mircea_popescu: the ram has no latency in all this ?
asciilifeform: this is included in the cycle count
mircea_popescu: no way ?!
asciilifeform: but no, sram has no meaningful (at 6502 speed) latency
mircea_popescu: ah it can actually control sram ?
asciilifeform: a set of flippy switches can control sram
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is prolly thinking of dram
asciilifeform: the gnarly pile of shit that we use today
mircea_popescu: oh i am yes.
asciilifeform: sram is where you have the actual bistable circuits
mircea_popescu: s is right next to d!
asciilifeform: that sit there happily drawing a femtoamp each
asciilifeform: and now for the fastest 8bx8b mul of all:
mircea_popescu: still, it's what, 100ns ?
asciilifeform: a 32kb times table!
asciilifeform: only eats half the address space, lel.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 10 is typical
mircea_popescu: that good ? aite.
mircea_popescu: you know, old tech progressed lots since the 70s
asciilifeform: i was quite astonished to learn that sram costs only a couple times less today than in early '90s
asciilifeform: (really from the market for standalone sram chips drying up, i suspect)
mircea_popescu: possibly
asciilifeform: still, interestingly, available...
asciilifeform suspects that 99% of it is used with fpga
mircea_popescu: well, and all the iot crapolade
asciilifeform: nope, not them
asciilifeform: no sram in there.
mircea_popescu: really ?
asciilifeform: well certainly not in own chip package!
asciilifeform: on dies with 'system on chip' crapola - plenty
mircea_popescu: i'd expect they cut corners, what's the budget for "smartening" a juicer, 15 bux ?
asciilifeform: but i was specifically considering standalone 1970s-style package.
mircea_popescu: no i meant soac sort of packages.
mircea_popescu: they still use the chip, however the hot glue is poured atop ya know.
asciilifeform: sram typically gets on die.
asciilifeform: and pieces of shit, e.g., https://wiki.openwrt.org/_media/media/tplink/tl-mr3020/tl-mr3020_top-pcb-gpio-pins.jpg?w=400&tok=e00072 << as i once experimented with for trbification << have dram.
phf: are we moving tmsr infra to 6502?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm seeing about $1/MB in qty. something like 1990s...
asciilifeform: phf: probably not most of it.
asciilifeform: but for certain applications it could very easily work.
mircea_popescu: phf more like keeping "unlikely" venue wide open
phf: i'm sure you've seen cl-6502, and i think there's a compiler from the same guy (or perhaps cl-6502 has a compiler too i don't quite remember)
mircea_popescu: and from the other perspective, you can have this ensemble in a baloon and solar powered. etc.
mircea_popescu: full spectrum dominance, you know ? "first we fuck up your scamcoin, on ops basis, then you spend all you got to try and prop it somewhere around 70% of what it was, then you try to attack bitcoin on fin basis, we rape you, then..."
mircea_popescu: that sorta thing
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo ironically, this was great savings initiative in soviet lands 1970s
mircea_popescu: copied after similar 1940s german one.
BingoBoingo: My how history rhymes!
mircea_popescu: if one weren't there one could scarcely believe.
BingoBoingo: Gotta get ready for post-China selling shit to all comers
BingoBoingo: If anyone wants a hole hawg now's the time while TTI is still selling them
BingoBoingo: Also it turns out hole hawg actually is carried by Big Box store
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, ethereum soft fork just got postponed 15k blocks (~2 days).
BingoBoingo: See, if you spam blocks all the time who needs to put spam in the blocks!
mircea_popescu: the problem being more that, of the ~10% miners that voted, the split is about 4:1 in favour. of the rest... well... something more like the reverse.
mircea_popescu: phf i thought it was gonna be slotin and his beryllium hemisphere
phf: we're not there yet, but damn close
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-24#1489076 << i linked it a few days ago iirc.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-24 02:05 phf: i'm sure you've seen cl-6502, and i think there's a compiler from the same guy (or perhaps cl-6502 has a compiler too i don't quite remember)
asciilifeform: phf: i actually printed out the src and read in hammock, and barfed: it is full of regexp
asciilifeform: lulzily he uses same ancient hoster as i
phf: aww, poop. i thought the guy was pretty cool from his nes emulator. usually the emulator types like to bit twiddle
asciilifeform: i can't hold it against him, really, but couldn't help go 'this is not Lispy!111'
asciilifeform: not such fun read.
phf: how do you even regex an emulator!
asciilifeform: it isn't only emulator
asciilifeform: also asmer/disasmer
asciilifeform: recall.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-24#1489087 << the actual one ?! i was in a 'home despot' not long ago, they had a plasticy piece of rubbish with that brand
a111: Logged on 2016-06-24 02:14 BingoBoingo: Also it turns out hole hawg actually is carried by Big Box store
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well actual one prolly requires Ebay. The new ones are made in China since TTI bought Milwauke
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-24#1489091 << bright future! we'll have actual rack, wheely cart
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i often wonder re the chinese toolz, do they wind the motors with aluminum wire yet ?
asciilifeform: or is this marvel still to come.
phf: i suspect those guys wear shoes that don't fall apart after three years either
BingoBoingo: Still to come, which is why buy now before aluminum horror
BingoBoingo: Likely will happen when China decides copper is a strategic good
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo may yet get his wish of petrol-powered hand tools
asciilifeform: party like it's 1870!111
BingoBoingo: Although the Chicoms now make a lot of the small petrol motors too
asciilifeform: well they won't be making ~these~
phf: sort of like if you were to show a picture of a girl at a gulag discussion will be about how she looks like she eats, swiftly moving into what she might've eaten that morning
mircea_popescu: really ?
phf: if one were to believe shalamov
asciilifeform: not everybody believes shalamov.
mircea_popescu: i guess i can see it.
asciilifeform: but in this case - i do.
asciilifeform: (recall the tale with the duck ?)
phf: right, exactly
a111: Logged on 2016-06-24 02:19 mircea_popescu: the problem being more that, of the ~10% miners that voted, the split is about 4:1 in favour. of the rest... well... something more like the reverse.
asciilifeform: they have no tame miner ??
mircea_popescu: they should.
asciilifeform: and what would 2 days change
asciilifeform: it blew a fuse, and ft meade has to order new one ?
mircea_popescu: ask them! not me!
asciilifeform: well presumably it was mircea_popescu who had a mole in there, hence why i asked him.
mircea_popescu: da fuck anyone knows what goes on through the bright heads that can't light bulbs of us stem unis.
mircea_popescu: this is one of those situations when enema is supposed to show up with 200 tanks and 5k infantry, shows up with three jeeps and two dozen streetwalkers instead. everyone just looks around in embarassment
phf: are there any 6502 computer designs where you have multiple of them sitting on same bus or talking to same memory
phf is talking out of ass
mircea_popescu: large pile of sram with a bunch of 6502s around it would make a pretty interesting parallel thing
trinque: sorta like the greenarrays thing?
phf: yeah, i had greenarrays in my original message, but somehow i lost it in edits
phf: afaik greenarrays don't have shared state and talk through neighbors, connection machine style. i was thinking, like mp said, just have them sit on shared memory
trinque: http://www.greenarraychips.com/home/documents/greg/AP003-110810-SRAM.pdf << yeah doesn't do that; converts 4 nodes to sram controller
mircea_popescu: especially as you could make a really large pile of ram
mircea_popescu: honestly if i wanted to make a "human brain model" it'd be something like this, 10k chips sitting around 10 GB worth of ram and talking into it dirtily.
mircea_popescu: 3.5k transistors is actually not a bad model for a neuron, as bugpowder may perhaps attest.
phf: this is roughly how the argument went in the connection machine book, but of course they didn't have access to large enough rams to make it shared
BingoBoingo: In other news corn is looking good, some field are showing visible soybeans. Been a while since honest rain befell this region.
BingoBoingo: In still other news with 46.3% Reporting "Leave" has 51.4% of the vote
phf: наши победили?
BingoBoingo: Still more to count
trinque: it's been up about 500k since I've been watching
BingoBoingo: Less than half counted, but win is winning
a111: Logged on 2016-06-24 02:40 phf: are there any 6502 computer designs where you have multiple of them sitting on same bus or talking to same memory
asciilifeform: because that's what i got here
asciilifeform: but... parachute.
phf: plx publish
phf: actually, i'm ok waiting, i think i'm going to build one of those computers on a board in the next few months just to get an idea of what connects where
asciilifeform: mouser co. has the chip.
asciilifeform: five bux or so iirc.
asciilifeform grew up with 6502 (well, 6510, commodore) rather than mircea_popescu's z80, so it is dear to him
asciilifeform: and imho 6502 is the more elegant animal.
asciilifeform: (moar work per tick, fewer parts)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-24#1489150 << shared ram is painful because the address/data lines are bottleneck
a111: Logged on 2016-06-24 02:50 mircea_popescu: honestly if i wanted to make a "human brain model" it'd be something like this, 10k chips sitting around 10 GB worth of ram and talking into it dirtily.
asciilifeform: ideally you want something more like danny hillis's (connection mach) topology
asciilifeform: e.g., hypercube
asciilifeform: ^ his thesis
asciilifeform: ^ i have dead tree here. 1st ed.
phf: i picked up "third printing" in portland, in that big bookstore of theirs
asciilifeform: ben_vulpeslandia!
asciilifeform: didja see him ?
phf: no, he was pretty upset at me for it
phf: i was in portland proper an evening, after a hippie retreat, got it in my head that a meeting with a tmsr member needs proper exposition, etc.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
phf: in any case it wasn't portland, i picked it up at a random bookstore in french quarter new orleans. between a tourist bar and a place that sold "vintage stuff" they had a bookstore with an amazing collection of random books
asciilifeform: 'The question of possible deaths by police fire arose soon after the shootings. One survivor, Norman Casiano, 26, told ABC News that he was shot by police when he crawled out from his hiding place in the bathroom after he thought it was safe.'
asciilifeform: muppet-assisted 'swatting'.
phf: they had a bunch of appel books there, mead's introduction to vlsi, a bunch of old common lisp books, 80s expert system books, etc.
asciilifeform: lel pretty much like the b00kcase i'm sitting next to l0l.l
phf: but it was a very odd setting, i was hungover like crazy, stumbling around with other throngs of tourists
trinque: leave up by 700k; this is great.
asciilifeform: trinque: ceremonial.
trinque: you leave me to my dreams of hypernationalist war
Bugpowder: its happening
BingoBoingo can't wait for when Britain has no one mobile enough to hand over its rag on a stick!
BingoBoingo: Fucking Brits will be stuck with no alternative but to wafflestomp!
Bugpowder: NIKKEI 225 FUTURES -1000 POINTS
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all --currency gbp
gribble: Bitstamp BTCGBP last: 435.199959, vol: 21280.19302267 | BTC-E BTCGBP last: 425.599515, vol: 15542.74625 | CampBX BTCGBP last: 420.1875, vol: 1.80726197 | BTCChina BTCGBP last: 471.7382, vol: 96965.55260000 | Kraken BTCGBP last: 400.004, vol: 105.80623942 | Volume-weighted last average: 460.517964865
phf: party is over?
thestringpuller: $gettrust pleasurep`
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
thestringpuller: $getrating pleasurep`
thestringpuller: $key pleasurep`
BingoBoingo: phf: Party is on pause. Can't let BTC look too much better than ether huffing, so Buttfunex has to have some butt fun
trinque: thestringpuller: that is an unperson per db
trinque: there's a pleasurep"
trinque: $gettrust deedbot pleasurep"
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
trinque: $key pleasurep"
thestringpuller: well for instance nubbins was nubbins` but is now nubbins"
thestringpuller: just seeing how this works
thestringpuller: somehow special characters got sanatized
trinque: wat
phf: kek
Bugpowder: ITV CALLS IT: LEAVE HAS WON THE EU REFERENDUM
Bugpowder: The gov isn’t really going to do it tho right? Non-binding…
asciilifeform: bush v. gore. snore.
trinque: thestringpuller: yeah this is fucked up; I have the original data for it all, so I'll fix tomorrow
trinque: happened somewhere from mysql -> psql
thestringpuller: cool. lemme know how to sanatize query-wise
trinque: thanks for catching that
trinque: I'll just shit out another dump after fixing it
asciilifeform: the minarets of londonabad will still call the faithful to prayer tomorrow. and next week, aha.
Bugpowder: Gold 1350
Bugpowder: Nikkei -1327 circuit breaker
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