Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-05-15 | 2016-05-17 → ↓
shinohai: $rated trinque
deedbot: shinohai rated trinque 1 at 3650630430 << Thanks for the help w/ Gentoo
shinohai: $v 74F71E6F46DED7928F1F7847FECA68399346703155CE6A676A7496146460A9AF
deedbot: shinohai updated rating of trinque from 1 to 2 << http://wiki.deedbot.org/
davout: "So for your Christopher Columbo detective skills, bravo, partially exposed for no reason, angry, sociopath lady!" <<< win
davout: this guy has it: "Just start a new one. Call yourselves "the official foundation", register a domain and go."
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-15#1466633 << there's nothing wrong with this "argumentum ad meta" per se. it's like two people, call them vincent and jules, riding down the street, and discussing whether houses they pass have or haven't a cellar. in principle, any house may or may not have one, and in principle one may be larger than an airport lot or large enough for http://65.media.tumblr.com/85c5637a36c690fa13df1d1f6042a96
a111: Logged on 2016-05-15 00:03 asciilifeform: i love it when mircea_popescu takes 'my' traditional side in argument - e.g., as seen here, argument ad metacocksucknsa
mircea_popescu: d/tumblr_nefwzj0DU81tyw73vo1_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: yet some general considerations are possible. like, if the house's in a swamp, safe bet it has none. stuff like that.
mircea_popescu: it doesn't ever speak to the PRINCIPLE of the cellar, however. it's always a discussion of the circumstances of the house.
mircea_popescu: davout ahhh, memory lane.
mircea_popescu: can't believe how much hanbot 's shirt bothered teh free & teh brave interneteer community.
mircea_popescu: one of these days i should get a client that's not retarded enough to split urls.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: might have to write it yourself
asciilifeform: (i don't know of one)
mircea_popescu: i was thinking, "and hopefully it's called gossipd"
asciilifeform: well actually you need an irc client to operate (my draft of) gossipd
asciilifeform: because i am not writing motherfucking guis.
asciilifeform: it eats irc on localhost end.
mircea_popescu: lol. i thought python had guis out the ying-yang
asciilifeform: what next, line-speed crypto in perl also.
mircea_popescu: anyway. nothing wrong with that split. i guess eventually "Sane irc client" will be a project.
asciilifeform: right next to 'sane os' on shelf
mircea_popescu: not nearly the same weight, these two
asciilifeform: you would be surprised.
mircea_popescu: anyway, how are you enjoying life as a free agent ?
asciilifeform: still waiting for my briefing, lulzily
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hot damn, your idea of the irc protocol as implemented'd better not require an irc client the size of an os!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: standard client
mircea_popescu: that's what i mean.
asciilifeform: irc is an ancient and simple protocol, and has pretty much 1 serious flaw
asciilifeform: that is theoretically fixable via plugin (znc)
asciilifeform: namely, inability to backdate messages
mircea_popescu: should be resolved through pfs not through znc
asciilifeform: what's pfs
mircea_popescu: perfect forward secrecy :D
asciilifeform: i dun see how.
mircea_popescu: anyway. messages should be ordered by protocol, through the fact you can't decrypt the latter without the former.
asciilifeform: this is a Bad Idea
asciilifeform: elementarily ddosable by enemy
asciilifeform: who can deny you one single packet
asciilifeform: and perma-hose you until whatever next reset.
mircea_popescu: i'd rather know someone can deny my packet.
mircea_popescu: so we can route around that.
mircea_popescu: gossipd is not server-client
asciilifeform: well sure
mircea_popescu: well so then.
mircea_popescu: it'll give the "get the fuck out of the boondocks" some very real bite.
asciilifeform: not very carrierpigeon-friendly.
mircea_popescu: "bitch, you wanna live in the us, well... learn to ham radio then i guess ?"
asciilifeform: my version works over message-in-a-bottle
mircea_popescu: note that there's no hard limit here. suppose, and again, this is just a blackboard mock-up, not a technical implementation :
mircea_popescu: message contains 10 keys. rule is that you use the lowest.
mircea_popescu: then if i get a message with 3rd key and none with 1 or 2, i put it first
mircea_popescu: if later i get a message with key 1, i put it before the 3rd key one.
mircea_popescu: sort-of like tree-based rather than linear scheme
mircea_popescu: (this being a problem first encountered by monks with books)
asciilifeform brb, food
shinohai: ;;later tell BingoBoingo http://ix.io/F6i
gribble: The operation succeeded.
phf: asciilifeform: ircv3 supports backdating (as well as "batch" message spool). i've hacked together backdating for erc, since znc supports it for spooling missed messages, but clients like irssi support it out of the box
mircea_popescu: actually, let me go into detail, why the hell not. ("because derps stalk the logs for examples of how x doesn't understand y" "and ?" "myeah.")
mircea_popescu: so : the genesis message, ie, the first communication between a pair (gossipd is a pairwise comms mechanism) includes 10 keys.
mircea_popescu: message A (G3) shows up, if no A(G1) or A(G2) is present, it goes in first. if A(G1) shows up later, it goes before A(G3). which means the list gets reordered.
mircea_popescu: then at the next level, if B(A5(G3)) shows up, it goes in next.
mircea_popescu: once B(A3(G3)) shows up, it goes obviously before B(A5(G3)), so the list is now {A(G1) ; A(G3) ; B(A3(G3)) ; B(A5(G3))}
mircea_popescu: if at this point a B(A8(G1)) should show up, it should be sorted somewhere in the list. but where ?
mircea_popescu: this, i believe, should be a setting exposed to the user. wherever the fuck he wants it to be sorted.
mircea_popescu: could have hard-lowest-level-first sortage, so it goes before A(G3) because it's off G1.
mircea_popescu: could have a binary or decimal scheme where 3 * 2^1 + 5 is compared with 1 * 2 ^ 1 + 8
mircea_popescu: in any case, however the list may be sorted by the peer, ITS peers get the list as it has it at that point.
mircea_popescu: and if in THAT conversation it uses C(B1(A1)) to transmit {A(G1) ; A(G3) ; B(A3(G3)) ; B(A8(G1)) ; B(A5(G3))} then that's that.
mircea_popescu: as a side-effect, the ability to extract political time out of this arrangement reduces to being well connected to well connected nodes that are connected to well connected nodes etc.
mircea_popescu: similarily, the ACTUAL order of message, and the presence or absence of "j/k" messages in there can a) never be established beyond reasonable doubt and b) can only be usefully guessed by people. which is to say, well connected, intelligent nodes.
mircea_popescu: which is what gossipd is supposed to be.
mircea_popescu: so, to belabour this point : if users are u1, u2, u3 and u4 ;
mircea_popescu: and in the relationship u1-u2 G is "Hai u2 howru" and then A1(G) is "fine ty.", and A5(G) is "urmom's a ho!" and A9(G) is "lol j/k",
mircea_popescu: whereas in the relationship u3-u2 G is "Hello u2" and A1(G) is "Hi!" and B1(A1(G)) is "How goes ?" and C1(B1(A1(G)))) is
mircea_popescu: "<from u1><to u2>Hai u2 howru
mircea_popescu: <from u2><to u1>urmom's a ho!
mircea_popescu: <from u2><to u1>lol j/k
mircea_popescu: nothing much"
mircea_popescu: then in the relationship u3-u1 whatever G may be A1(G) will be
mircea_popescu: "<from u1><to u2>Hai u2 howru
mircea_popescu: <from u2><to u1>urmom's a ho!
mircea_popescu: <from u2><to u1>lol j/k
mircea_popescu: <from u2><to u3>nothing much"
mircea_popescu: at which point u1 can verify that HE didn't get the A5 or the A9. And he couldn't care less that it's a "network problem" or intentional withholding, much like MPEx doesn't gas what proxies do or don't do on the way.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile u4 has absolutely nfi wtf went down there, u2 may be an asshole or fucking around or w/e.
mircea_popescu: and there's sure as fuck no way for u4 to prove to u* that u2 insulted u1's mom, or didn't.
mircea_popescu: now something like a111 would run on an "observer" node, which is to say with the rule that it doesn't publish/pass lines not reported by the putative author. because those constitute...gossip.
mircea_popescu: and the (otherwise spurious) concept of "a chan" reduces to "a list of specified broadcast recipients".
asciilifeform: lel i went to see another one of those houses
asciilifeform: the sheer filth
asciilifeform: floor to ceiling !
mircea_popescu: what houses ?
asciilifeform: and entirely unusable, even were it to be cleaned with a flamethrower - as usual, the owner divided up the normal rooms into tiny garrets for students
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the kind for rent
mircea_popescu: you gotta plox take pix and make a blogpost of this once.
mircea_popescu: i really wanna see.
asciilifeform: well i walked into this one with the contents still alive...
mircea_popescu: hey, that's their problem. you're there on business, gotta have the pics to make a call.
mircea_popescu: landlord can't show the house, his job to fix that. if he can show the house, you're taking pix.
asciilifeform: next one i shoot pics of
asciilifeform: what aspect is mircea_popescu interested in ?
mircea_popescu: *thumbsup*
asciilifeform: he's never seen pile of rubbish before ?
mircea_popescu: i want the datapoint for my own lulz.
mircea_popescu: "richest country in teh wreld"
mircea_popescu: you have nfi what pile of people all over think "like in america" is a superlative.
asciilifeform: i dunno of any country where students dun live in own filth
asciilifeform: and it is not even that i need living near students for anything
mircea_popescu: i dunno of any country where the students don't THINK ustardians live like in "friends".
mircea_popescu: which is the point of interest.
asciilifeform: it is just that it is ~impossible to rent a house anywhere else !
mircea_popescu: studends are, at least in most of the world, the people who value their cunt closest to its true value.
asciilifeform: hilariously, when speaking with (now former) colleagues, 'where do you live?' 'in a house' 'but you said you rent...' 'right, i rent a house' 'you mean, a room in a house?' 'no...' 'what, whole floor??' 'no...'
asciilifeform: it is apparently a 'martian' thing to do.
mircea_popescu: i dunno, i rented all sorts.
asciilifeform: yeah but yer not a workerbee and dun hang out with same
mircea_popescu: who the fuck BUYS oceanfront property for instance. other than a hedge fund / the miami mahjongg club
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu said 'i rent a boeing' folks would believe
mircea_popescu: NOBODY owns a boeing today. i'm pretty sure.
mircea_popescu: even fucking GE sold its own fucking machinery to GF to lease it from them
asciilifeform: lower tco
mircea_popescu: exactly.
asciilifeform: (unlike workerbee in house)
mircea_popescu: hm ? renting house is exactly the same, lower cost to carry.
mircea_popescu: we had this in the log in detail.
asciilifeform: in usgschwitz there are massive subsidies to folks who buy the thing
mircea_popescu: subsidios truchos.
mircea_popescu: the derps THINK they're getting subsidies. not so.
asciilifeform: (e.g., whole thing is subtracted from tax)
asciilifeform: the derps are getting raped on interest
asciilifeform: i am speaking of folks buying
asciilifeform: y'know, with MONEY
mircea_popescu: if you have that money, you find a partner and start a real estate corp, and go rent yourself a house.
mircea_popescu: "women may not hold money" doesn't mean something about women. it means something about money, ie, capital is to be deployed in business not in the household.
asciilifeform: well the interesting bit in this and previous threads is that 'i want to rent a house' is almost 'i want to rent reactor' in usa.
mircea_popescu: the fact that you can't find a decent cofee house at north pole does not signify you should give up the cappuccino habit.
mircea_popescu: it signifies you shouldn't be at the north pole.
danielpbarron: speaking of which I've resolved to stop eating at a local cafe/brunch place because half the time they can't be arsed to use the espresso machine, sometimes claiming that it's 'broken'
danielpbarron: i think i'm the only one that even orders cappuccinos there; everyone else is content to drink the pre-made 'coffee' from those self-serve pump stations
phf: asciilifeform: there are some nice whole house rentals next to walter reed research institute in silver spring. they converted "national park seminary" to condos, can find whole house for 1,6k or so
asciilifeform: i dun like rowhouses.
phf: they have standalones
asciilifeform: it was a great place tho, had spiffy ruins
asciilifeform: i used to work right in that institute.
phf: man, i go there for massage, and it makes me heart ache, all those beautiful ruins, "modernized"
asciilifeform: barbaric, aha
phf: 1,6k is for a standalone, i'm sure rowhouses are cheaper. they have a few standalones for sale, dc- "cheap" 600k or so
phf: i was trying to buy one of the larger buildings to renovate for company's office, they wouldn't sell. i'm sure they can make bank on condos
asciilifeform: just about everywhere i go, i see old buildings being bulldozed to make room for condos, built of matchsticks and cardboard, where ~80% of the units stay vacant for years after the thing opens
asciilifeform: straight bezzle play.
asciilifeform: nobody actually needs to ~live~ in these, for the builder to make bank.
asciilifeform: from the pov of the bezzle artists, empties are just as useful as filled units, they help to prop up price.
asciilifeform: without generating any expense
asciilifeform: (nobody needs to maintain empty thing)
jurov: "Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway Takes $1 Billion Position in Apple" lol the end is nigh!
asciilifeform: phf: i was intrigued enough to investigate - quotes are more like 2.5k
asciilifeform: jurov: link ?
ben_vulpes: danielpbarron: there's nothing wrong with a well-used airpot in theory, but it does require dumping the remains every ~10 minutes for a fresh pot. yes, this means that low-volume shops cannot serve good coffee from an airpot, but since when has that stopped anyone.
danielpbarron: idk i'm kinda of the opinion that if i'm gonna have coffee at a place, it should be served into a ceramic mug by a waitress and come with free refills
ben_vulpes: kinda orthogonal
ben_vulpes: most places with waitresses, ceramic mugs and delivery use an air pot anyways
ben_vulpes: that is *never* refreshed, only more swill poured atop
asciilifeform: soooo usg finally made the old man 'offer he couldn't refuse'.
phf: asciilifeform: hmm, 1,6 quote is from my massage therapist, who's got two places for rent in that block
phf: generally i suspect you'll have better luck with renting from owners, rather than mgmt companies, since later can allow for dead souls
asciilifeform: phf: yeah, the former is what i do now
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> straight bezzle play. << the world over, this.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes yes, this means that low-volume shops cannot serve good coffee from an airpot <<< girl had one of those filter drip things all her life. the unit she had broke, over weekend, and i taught girl to make turkish boiled coffee. then today "did you want to replace your drip thing ?" "umm... nah".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: so 'north pole' is ~everywhere.
mircea_popescu: jurov holy shit, yahoo, the mother of all worthless "internet companies". at least activesoft has or maybe had some competent garbagemongers.
mircea_popescu: i subscribe to "the end is nigh" theory, the usg dept of berkshire convened the rich kids for a visit over with obama and they all agreed to donate moar money to the nazi party.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do you recall that ridiculous piece ? somehow nobody noticed it.
asciilifeform: they have these regularly tho
mircea_popescu: didn't exist during bush
asciilifeform: buf was prolly told, one way or another, 'you will invest. if you do, we will print 2x and you can have that, so long as you don't buy turkeys. if you do not, there will be problems' etc.
mircea_popescu: well, either that or the fsf.
mircea_popescu: he's old and rather senile by now.
mircea_popescu: so how did the quote go...
asciilifeform: yah quite likely the dealings were with his bob beck.
mircea_popescu: something about the old chap being too "out of touch" for "day to day" decisionmaking
asciilifeform: that was re: rms's bobbeck iirc.
mircea_popescu: yes what i meant. berkshire got fsf'd.
asciilifeform: likely - long ago.
mircea_popescu: and incidentally bobbeck sounds like exactly the right word for it.
asciilifeform: aha, pronounced бобик
asciilifeform: (approx - street dog)
mircea_popescu: to bobbeck, to attach a subservient aparatchick to the sort of entreprise lords might have either heard of or outright respect, so as to puppet it along the nazi cause.
ben_vulpes: unrelatedly, amazon has buried the ingestion point for ssh pubkeys in a truly obscure corner of their systems
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes what do they normally use ?
ben_vulpes: rsa if i understand your question
ben_vulpes: they want to /give you the keypair/
mircea_popescu: no i mean, other than ssh keys
mircea_popescu: oh i c. bwahahaha. makes sense dunnit.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: can't see how aws could be made worse than it is by ~them giving you keypair~
asciilifeform: it isn't like you aren't sitting in vm kolhoz already.
ben_vulpes: i seek to entertain, what
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if they give you keypair they can sign imaginary connection sessions from you. if not, not.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: still can
asciilifeform: if you park private key in kolhoz
asciilifeform: regardless of who generated it
mircea_popescu: you park pubkey.
ben_vulpes: it's trivially swapped out once in the machine
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not how ssh worx
asciilifeform: server has own private.
mircea_popescu: how not ? i put my pubkey in server.
mircea_popescu: well yes, with which it signs ITS stuff.
asciilifeform: what does having your pub in the box do ?
mircea_popescu: that if i don't say "obama is a whore's dog" over ssh, aws can't produce a correctly signed token for "mp said obama is a whore's dog" over ssh.
a111: Logged on 2016-05-16 15:12 mircea_popescu: we had this in the log in detail.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the keys are only used in the authentication. so what gets said afterwards is 'promise', not 'protocol'
asciilifeform: in fact the ssh pile of shit is every bit as malodorous as ssl.
asciilifeform: re mouseholes.
a111: Logged on 2015-12-07 23:34 mircea_popescu: and if you want actual numbers, i just got a coupla girlies an apt. the sale value would have been i guess 160-170k or so. the monthly rent is 750. the first month, the washing machine went, and the owner replaced it. the next month, ac went (brother was that an incredible pos job wow), owner replaced it. so far owner's been making 0 from his property.
mircea_popescu: there's also a large one discussing with some guy his idea of bootstrapping on a shoestring a landlord governing body, because he's a 20yo brogrammer and that's how governance works in his mind.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the 'rentalstarter' thing ?
mircea_popescu: something
a111: Logged on 2015-10-18 14:25 mircea_popescu: so let me get this straight, you want to give people too poor to litigate, too stupid / desocialized to talk to the landlord and too scared to act the option "you can either pay 100 to the landlord as deposit or 300 to me and unlike the landlord I PROMISE to give it back (maybe), except im not anywhere near you and you can't burn my house down" ?
mircea_popescu: whole day was ~dedicated to hashing out that steaming pile of 20yo lulzideas.
asciilifeform: re slumlords, i am still reeling from what i saw today
mircea_popescu: they should whip them.
mircea_popescu: seriously, wtf slum lord is that, doesn't rape the girls and whip the boys ?!
asciilifeform: washed, and still feel dirty from having gone in that reactor zone for 10 min.
asciilifeform: no gurlz there.
asciilifeform: they typically live in the nicer places
asciilifeform: (tower flats)
asciilifeform: and besides, what does a 80 y.o. ru bloke (landlord) need to whip for ?
asciilifeform: all he wants is bags of dough, to pay for his titanium hearts or whatnot
davout: mircea_popescu: tyvm
mircea_popescu: myeah. "longer life expectancy" turns out to be a horrible idea.
asciilifeform: i will add one detail that mircea_popescu may find interesting. amidst the piles of rubbish from floor to ceiling, the black mold in the single solitary toilet, carpet of stinking laundry, etc. there was a, i shit thee not, ~2metre tv in every room.
mircea_popescu: wait, how many people ?
asciilifeform: 4 paying customers, iirc.
mircea_popescu: one bathroom for 4 people !?
asciilifeform: most of'em were in bed, had to be rousted
asciilifeform: i say 'paying' because it is quite rare for such a house to have only the paying ones
asciilifeform: usually there are phriends/fucktoys/family/etc
asciilifeform: understand, also, what kind of structure it was
asciilifeform: these are classical usaschwitz houses with hollow wooden walls.
asciilifeform: such cavities, of course, cannot be cleaned.
asciilifeform: the mold in the toilet is there to stay, until the place is bulldozed.
asciilifeform: the kitchen will always have its unique smell.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: incidentally, i only rarely visit such places, because - while i can outbid 4 or 5 of the wretches - i cannot outbid 10, and that is closer to the typical number
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform one place i rented here contained ~6 local derps at the time ; now inhabited by two.
mircea_popescu: apparently worldwide phenomena.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yeah but since they were not american boiz you prolly didnt have to irradiate the place to sterilize after
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> the mold in the toilet is there to stay, until the place is bulldozed. << nah, copper sulphate will wipe it.
asciilifeform: from inside wall?!
asciilifeform: recall, they also all have forced air ducts
asciilifeform: (nothing else has been built since '40s)
mircea_popescu: even that, yes. this is a whole profession, buying property managed into the dirt by idiots and making it shine. pays pretty well, too, most hands-on types end up doing that.
mircea_popescu: but, as with all things, nobody's going to bother putting in the effort for a shitty apt.
asciilifeform: naturally.
mircea_popescu: too many detached family houses on two levels waiting for the treatment.
asciilifeform: that incidentally was the type of structure i was looking at
asciilifeform: but nobody does it for rentals that will be promptly shat in again by the usual clientele.
mircea_popescu: there's stories in the us proletcult folklore about the regime deciding to socially integrate gypsies, ending up with indoor fireplace fed from what used to be the parquet...
asciilifeform: it is sometimes done when converting to 'civilian use'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: stories of this in ru also.
mircea_popescu: apparently this is a permanent item, usg-born orcs forcibly integrated by usg, revert to the tribal arrangements that are adequate to their needs and capacities.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> but nobody does it for rentals that will be promptly shat in again by the usual clientele << rent control ruins real estate huh.
asciilifeform: another detail, since i lack photo, of what makes these dwellings stomach-churning, is the american custom of 'wall to wall carpet'
asciilifeform: it is glued to the floor
mircea_popescu: oh that's insufferable.
asciilifeform: ~uncleanable
asciilifeform: i was very lucky, 2y ago, to find a place with an actual wooden floor.
asciilifeform: it is a rarity.
mircea_popescu: actually most of the stuff ustartds do these days is insufferable. used to be that if you wanted proper floor spacing and decent sized fridges you had to go to the us. which is how people ended up in california.
mircea_popescu: but these days... wtf is with the paper walls, and the attendant fire sprinklers and fire drills and whatnot ? you couldn't pay me to live in a place with firesprinklers.
asciilifeform: i dun think i have ever lived in a place with fire sprinklers
asciilifeform: possibly uni dormitory had some
mircea_popescu: also wtf is with the lulzvoltage ; and with the poorly provisioned water and often inexitent gas pipes. etc.
mircea_popescu: seriously, "water saving shower" ?! because why, i'm in palenque ?
asciilifeform: we did the lulzvoltage thread
mircea_popescu: just saying, by now they're doing EVERYTHING wrong.
asciilifeform: and the crippling of the shower is done in the head, not the house pipe
mircea_popescu: bad lightbulbs ; bad flooring, bad carpeting bad walls bad you name it.
asciilifeform: trivially circumvented by screwing in your own
mircea_popescu: electric stoves are ok ; but they better be gas-stove standard, not a lulzy teapot warmer + microwave.
asciilifeform: (you couldn't pay me to use a standard american shower head, the kind with no hose)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and no bidets.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: these are ~unknown in english world
mircea_popescu: the insanity of having fixed-above-head showerhead and no bidets makes me fucking wonder how exactly do ustards eat cunt.
asciilifeform: i was reading a treatise re indoor fixtures, by british fella, circa 1960, and he described how bidet was installed in a few london hotels at one tim
asciilifeform: (early 1900s)
mircea_popescu: gotta give the gurlz SOME WAY to wash ffs.
asciilifeform: and promptly ripped out
asciilifeform: after 'outrage, scandal'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i have genuinely nfi how - and whether - these people wash.
mircea_popescu: let's talk of something else. the richest korea makes my stomach turn.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-16#1467105 << phf modelled this (as did i) - it is trickier than it sounds
a111: Logged on 2016-05-16 14:43 mircea_popescu: and the (otherwise spurious) concept of "a chan" reduces to "a list of specified broadcast recipients".
asciilifeform: somewhere there was a thread...
asciilifeform: summary: it takes active work to avoid a situation where you are continuously bombarded with fragments of conversations
asciilifeform: sorta like usenet in its twilight days
mircea_popescu: that work = your wot, eh ?
mircea_popescu: gossip irl works exactly the same way, if you just talk to the woman your parents picked and your cousins, it's suicideware.
mircea_popescu: if however you pick the whores you entertain carefully, it's empowering to a degree uknown by nazi derps.
mircea_popescu: in fact, their derpy "secret services" universally aspire (and universally fail) to be exactly this.
asciilifeform: yeah but there is a sharp edge:
asciilifeform: let's express in proper mathematical pieces,
phf: how do you deal with situation of in-wot A talking to out-wot B?
asciilifeform: if your wot is not a ~clique~, yer hosed.
asciilifeform: i have killed a great deal of paper working on a clean solution to this.
asciilifeform: phf: in the algo proposed by mircea_popescu, you will hear the tx side (A sends to me,x,y,z,..,B) but not the replies (B sends to A,...his wot...,)
asciilifeform: exactly like a usenet group in 1995 where you have a good chunk of the participants killfiled
mircea_popescu: phf there's no such thing.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no. you can not possibly hear the talk to and from outsiders. you just discard all that.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the only way there can 'be no such thing' is if your wot is a clique.
mircea_popescu: no, just, you filter it out. if you want to hear what your friend A says to B, must make B your friend.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you certainly ~do~ hear message that is to you,x,y,z,hitler unless specced otherwise
mircea_popescu: obviously, nothing prevents you from running firehose mode. but , just like wireshark makes no guarantee as to the literary or poetic merits of random wire captures,
mircea_popescu: this also.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no such thing as "to X Y", gossipd being a pairwise protocol.
asciilifeform: precisely
asciilifeform: but consider this thread
mircea_popescu: so if you want to say "hi" to 5 people, you say hi 5 times to one at a time.
mircea_popescu: what about this thread am i considering ?
asciilifeform: when i say '<asciilifeform> but consider this thread' it is not specified protocolically to ~whom~ i said it
mircea_popescu: but it is.
mircea_popescu: if you say it in #trilema which is an alias for (me you and phf) then you said it 3x : once to each
mircea_popescu: if you said it in pm to me... then you say it once, to me.
mircea_popescu: and if i'm also friends with phf, phf will report to me having heard you say "hi".
mircea_popescu: but if i'm not, i'll never know. the situation where i'm friends to you, and you say hi to me in a channel of 10`000 people i don't know ; and the situation where i'm friends with you and you say hi to me in a pm are identical.
mircea_popescu: and it's how things work irl, also. that they don't work that way online is because online is fucktarded beyond conception.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: where on planet gossipd do we find equivalent of ' mircea_popescu and asciilifeform in a channel of 10,000 people they don't know '
mircea_popescu: girl calls you on the phone. who's there with her ?
mircea_popescu: ex bf ? mother ? hitler ? do you care ?
asciilifeform: in this case could be 10 hitlers, but we aren't tuning them in
asciilifeform: so answer is 'just gurl'
mircea_popescu: group of girlies walking down the street, you see one you like, and talk to her. the other idiots you don't care about giggle or w/e. so ?
mircea_popescu: i'm just saying, the way communication works irl is precisely like contemplated gossipd scheme, and exactly NOT like bbs/irc/webetc.
mircea_popescu: those are modelled after stuff like academic communication ; which pointedly is not speech
mircea_popescu: (except englishtards, being idiots as awlays, use "speech" to denote precisely not-speech, ie writ. precisely because they used writ for some legalese arcana five century prior. but we digress.)
mircea_popescu: (but since we digressed - and this ineptitude leads them into all sorts of lulz. for instance, SPEECH was protected by constitution. as in, the activity of gossipd. not WRIT, such as an imaginary right to publish slander. etc.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not making any sense ?
asciilifeform: it does.
BingoBoingo: <phf> 1,6k is for a standalone, i'm sure rowhouses are cheaper. they have a few standalones for sale, dc- "cheap" 600k or so << lol, divide by 3 or 4 for cheap here
deedbot: [Qntra] Countable ClassicCoin Nodes Dropping - http://qntra.net/2016/05/countable-classiccoin-nodes-dropping/
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the tax-declared value of the thing i am sitting in presently is ~250k
asciilifeform: so 'divide by...' also here.
BingoBoingo: lol, divide by 5 or 6 here
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-16#1467378 << i must point out that, at least on same nazi site, the count of trb nodez is also record low - 5
a111: Logged on 2016-05-16 20:11 deedbot: [Qntra] Countable ClassicCoin Nodes Dropping - http://qntra.net/2016/05/countable-classiccoin-nodes-dropping/
asciilifeform: and i recognize precisely 2 on this list which do not daily flicker in and out
asciilifeform: and they are both mine.
asciilifeform: and one of these 5 is even a shitazon node
asciilifeform: which does not get to peer with mine.
asciilifeform: what gives, folks
asciilifeform: is it so hard to stand up a node ???
BingoBoingo: More a challenge to get 21.c0 to count it
asciilifeform: they count mine, wut
BingoBoingo: For some reason the won't count mine
asciilifeform: whats yer uptime
BingoBoingo: And I dun care to fix it.
BingoBoingo: About 36 hours now, previously a couple months.
ben_vulpes: what is this website that counts nodes
ben_vulpes: i'm supposed to give a shit about 21.co?
asciilifeform: there isn't another afaik, tho.
ben_vulpes: haven't we had this thread before, of that the network is not paricularly enumerable, and with the malleability of version strings that counting them is somewhat less than pointless?
asciilifeform: the thing appears to honestly count nodes so long as they advertise >= 0.8.
trinque: deedbot.org isn't on there, was
trinque: and it's up
trinque: though as I check its log, there is a great deal of "socket no message in first 60 seconds"
trinque: it is however keeping up with the blockchain, so perhaps I've got say... a curated connection to the network :p
trinque: or perhaps their scanner issues heathen commands
asciilifeform: trinque: quite a bit of blackhole on my nodez, since more or less the beginning
asciilifeform: 21's thing does not issue heathen commands
asciilifeform: or my nodes (which drop all heathens) would not register.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-16#1467401 << it is rather like saying that it is pointless to ask 'are you a girl', because folks might lie
a111: Logged on 2016-05-16 20:46 ben_vulpes: haven't we had this thread before, of that the network is not paricularly enumerable, and with the malleability of version strings that counting them is somewhat less than pointless?
asciilifeform: as for whether the network is enumerable, the ~public~ subset - the kind of node which answers to all-comers, e.g., my nodez - certainly are.
asciilifeform: the quasi-mythical 'seeeekrit evidence' nodes which connect directly to mines, etc. - not.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lol trb nodes still oom. darn.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in theory
asciilifeform: (i worked out hard bounds, long ago, see l0gz)
asciilifeform: (in practice, trb node on a decent box like dulap can run for a very long time - years - without reset)
ben_vulpes: dun think mine ooms terrifically often. not in my personal memory at least.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform funny, of the 5, two are kind-of behind also
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: most of the time there is 1-2 cable modem things in there aha
mircea_popescu: well, i have no idea why my nodes are offline. i also have not the time/patience to check up on them daily like they were carrying my child or some shit.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: typically when i run a serious box i have a dedicated display for its health stat
mircea_popescu: from one of the afflicted systems
mircea_popescu: ├─screen─┬─2*[bash───su───bash───bitcoind]
mircea_popescu: ├─bash───pstree
mircea_popescu: └─bash───su───bash───bitcoind───5*[{bitcoind}]
mircea_popescu: so i'm guessing the restarter failed in some speshul manner.
asciilifeform: we dun have a restarter
asciilifeform: well my item didn't
asciilifeform: i have nfi what mircea_popescu wrote.
asciilifeform: maybe his nodes need new plutonium
mircea_popescu: apparently.
mircea_popescu: o ffs. neither the 216. nor the 173. that this node's startline wants it to addnode actually exist in that list.
mircea_popescu: no fucken wonder.
mircea_popescu: so what's the officialdom now, 46.166 54.187 an' what, 72.83 ?
asciilifeform: the former is old dulap iirc
asciilifeform: the latter - old mpb node spoken of last year
asciilifeform: well i personally answer for
asciilifeform: dulap (nosuchlabs.com, but recall we have no dns, it is 46.166.165.30 for trb purposes)
asciilifeform: and zoolag
asciilifeform: 72.83.9.196
mircea_popescu: incidentally, whatever site is only going to know about those nodes that even talk to it.
asciilifeform: noshit.jpg
a111: Logged on 2016-05-16 21:08 asciilifeform: the quasi-mythical 'seeeekrit evidence' nodes which connect directly to mines, etc. - not.
mircea_popescu: aite, im bringing a coupla more online / in the open.
mircea_popescu waves at trinque 's
trinque: yo!
mircea_popescu: see alf, tmsr is a complaint-driven entity. bitch and thou shalt receive
mircea_popescu: now go forth, and use this power for good.
mircea_popescu: $up RBLrbl
deedbot: RBLrbl voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell BingoBoingo https://theintercept.com/snowden-sidtoday << qntra ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform has been looking, it appears to be - like the other snowdeniana - mostly rubbish
asciilifeform: 'Consistent with the requirements of our agreement with our source, our editors and reporters have carefully examined each document, redacted names of low-level functionaries and other information that could impose serious harm on innocent individuals, and given the NSA an opportunity to comment on the documents to be published (the NSA’s comments resulted in no redactions other than two names of relatively low-level employees that
asciilifeform: we agreed, consistent with our long-standing policy, to redact). ' << aahahahahaha
asciilifeform: 'we asked hitler first!'
asciilifeform: sop for the greenwalders.
asciilifeform: 'There are also documents in the archive that we do not believe should be published because of the severe harm they would cause innocent people (e.g., private communications intercepted by NSA, the disclosure of which would destroy privacy rights; and documents containing government speculation about bad acts committed by private individuals (typically from marginalized communities), the disclosure of which would permanently destroy
asciilifeform: reputations).'
asciilifeform: ... how about the imbecile's ~own~ reputation ?
asciilifeform: from the l0lchest,
asciilifeform: https://theintercept.com/snowden-sidtoday/2830111-mathematician-an-insider-s-view << the first snowden-anything that even ~mentions~ crypto, afaik
asciilifeform: an utter snore.
felipelalli: deedbot are you sleeping?
deedbot-: accepted: 1
felipelalli: I'm sorry, wrong deedbot, I thought it was already merged.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how the fuck are "low leve functionaries" innocent
mircea_popescu: they're the guiltiest wtf.
mircea_popescu: ~the only people that are getting shot. otherwise, hitler himself usually pivots into court jester job.
asciilifeform: dun ask me!
asciilifeform: ask the greencocksucker
mircea_popescu: hey, the emulator said you'd say "don'\t ask me! ask them!"
asciilifeform: he even censored some of the humour column 'where i used to work before nsa' things
asciilifeform: because - i suppose - items like 'i designed the levels for the game xxxxxxxxx' might give the name away
asciilifeform just finished snarfing up whole crock of shit
mircea_popescu: in a different life you could have been gru "low level employee". making 2-3 summaries/day
asciilifeform: neh, too ethnic
asciilifeform: just like - incidentally - here in good old usa
mircea_popescu: afaik they let orcs in that sorta job.
asciilifeform: non-jew orcs.
mircea_popescu: lol. jew enough to count here, not jew enough to own real estate huh.
mircea_popescu: alf the fell-through-teh-jew-cracks
asciilifeform: jew means quite other thing in su.
asciilifeform: sorta like the dark skinned turks in mircea_popescu's mosque
asciilifeform: sole purpose is to fill the back row.
mircea_popescu: btw, "generalnvo shtaba" was always the fucking lulziest thing. because, obvious, in ro shtab denotes... well what you'd call a catamite.
asciilifeform totters, falls down
mircea_popescu: you know ?
asciilifeform: well now i know.
ben_vulpes: jew enough to get in, too ethnic to get joo gold once in
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