Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-05-07 | 2016-05-09 → ↓
asciilifeform: http://www.crypto.com/papers/export.txt << by same author, another vintage lol, re the idiocy of ruleoflaw
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lulzy. "oh we can't brute force because reasons"
asciilifeform: the 'acres of crays', already quite famous then - space heaters!1111
mircea_popescu: phf> but you then run into the issue is that the conflict might be introduced up the graph chain << fuck, waht !?
mircea_popescu: this can't be right.
mircea_popescu: phf> the graph for that is X->Y->Z, X->Z << this is incorrect. the graph for that is "X->Y->Z". "X->Z" is not correct because Z requires b 3 and x does not provide b3.
mod6: if you grab this, and it didn't get munged, you should end up with this hash: 6eaa543333746c11069ff9ca85aaa6330419d0be95de21fafcdbd500e1bc6df2ef10c2dc1d104b15cb50da7b362eac6bf1ddf3830329367b31c1e59e1dc3c6a9
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> 'no conflict' is fuzzy and introduces potential of subtle breakage << i agree with this view, for the reasons stated. same hash has to be the criterion.
mod6: further, use `v' and ensure that your patches dir is up to date with the mirror. if you're not sure, just mv your patches dir to like 'patches.old' and then use 'init' to get the latest.
mod6: then copy the funk vpatch into patches dir
asciilifeform: if hash-in mismatches - patch MUST fail. ditto if hash-out does.
mod6: then see if you can press it successfully: `./v.pl p v v054-wFunk asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected.vpatch`
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i re-read what he's saying, i'm not even sure we actually grasp what the man is trying to say.
asciilifeform: and for ENTIRE file set.
mircea_popescu: or at least i can't seem to reorder it into something that seems reasonable.
mod6: asciilifeform: are you talking to me?
mircea_popescu: mod6 nah we're wringing over earlier graph discussion
mod6: im talking about the hash of the vpatch file itself.
asciilifeform: mod6: mircea_popescu , re phf's observation
mod6: oah ok
mod6: im pretty well convinced that what I have constructed works fine.
asciilifeform: my understanding was that he was making use of loose coupling somehow
asciilifeform: where there was not strict all-must-match.
mircea_popescu: i got as far ; but i don't see where or how, and his example is broken
asciilifeform: perhaps he might supply another when he wakes up.
mod6: shinohai: dangit. i curl'd that wotpaste and i got a different hash output
mod6: it munged someting
mod6: 72780acdf0df0ed1510f3d5341c7191be3a4b6809be397d706aaf9123b1889a715bfc47511cf0b1800dbcffa6bcbcc26823cbfaea46f38993f94584f7a7ddeb1 -
mircea_popescu: $google Булучеало
deedbot hands you a broomstick.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: mega-lol re above, given as i saw an 'official' ar diplomatic tango demo today!
mircea_popescu: wait, you READ IT ALREADY ?!
asciilifeform: a few min ago.
asciilifeform has own automata
mircea_popescu pictures alf in NOC with trilema rss scrolling on alrge screen
asciilifeform: sorta aha
mircea_popescu: back in ro glory days there were a few people in various ministries doing just that
mircea_popescu: hated me for it too.
mod6: Oh, and a cat! Which, in absolute fairness, was by far the most intelligent local present. << haha
mircea_popescu: cat was pretty laid back.
mod6: ben_vulpes: is there a way to get around this?
mod6: 103
mod6: 6eaa543333746c11069ff9ca85aaa6330419d0be95de21fafcdbd500e1bc6df2ef10c2dc1d104b15cb50da7b362eac6bf1ddf3830329367b31c1e59e1dc3c6a9 -
ben_vulpes: mod6: done
ben_vulpes: browsers frequently pass newlines from forms as \r\n
ben_vulpes: anyways, should you care to, you can now also `curl -L -F "pastebox=@foo.txt" wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com`
ben_vulpes: produces the same hash as the submitted file
ben_vulpes: http://archive.is/637lm << unrelatedly, don't you want to stay at the cow cave? the akita house? perhaps the host of the kangaroo treehouse's beguiling pose will entice you into a rental. if none of those appeal, consider pug palace, cow boat, or the cottage cheese cottage
ben_vulpes: me, i'm booking batcave hammocks asap
ben_vulpes: that novelty penny looks DOPE
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-08#1464645 << pretty sure that's where there's a lot of confusion, even between what you're saying and what ascii is saying
a111: Logged on 2016-05-08 04:11 mircea_popescu: phf> the graph for that is X->Y->Z, X->Z << this is incorrect. the graph for that is "X->Y->Z". "X->Z" is not correct because Z requires b 3 and x does not provide b3.
phf: in v's definition of antecedent, the only requirement is "share a single hash"
phf: so the fact that Z requires b 3 is irrelevant, since Z also requires a 1
phf: that's not my definition by the way, that's how the graph is constructed inside v.py (v99.py:143 get_ante)
a111: Logged on 2016-05-08 04:46 mod6: shinohai: grab this one http://www.mod6.net/btcf/test/mod6_funken_prikey_tools.vpatch
mircea_popescu: phf prolly. let's delve.
mircea_popescu: phf so basically you found a bug in mod6's perl implementation of v ?
phf: mircea_popescu: i don't think that's a bug, that's more of a conceptual thing.
mircea_popescu: how so ?
phf: that's the behavior of the original v where the graph doesn't communicate any additional information beyond "shares a hash"
mircea_popescu: so ? this doesn't prove "not a bug"
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-08#1464711 << mno. it communicates 'you need this patch and its antecedents'
a111: Logged on 2016-05-08 14:15 phf: that's the behavior of the original v where the graph doesn't communicate any additional information beyond "shares a hash"
asciilifeform: and yes, because they share a hash
asciilifeform: what of it ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you talking about yours or mod6's ?
mircea_popescu: we were not talking about yours.
asciilifeform: and his
asciilifeform: well phf was , i think, speaking of the basic vtron conceptually
mircea_popescu: i think mod6's might actually try to press on the basis of "has ONE antecedent"
mircea_popescu: he couldn't have had, since he gave examples.
asciilifeform will have to actually read mod6's thing before commenting further
phf: (i don't really know how mod6's vtron operates, only speaking of mine and asciilifeform's)
mircea_popescu: uh. wait, which was the one in py ?
phf: asciilifeform's
mircea_popescu: right cuz mod made it in perl, nm.
mircea_popescu: i take it back. ok, so :
mircea_popescu: get_ante returns all leaves required for a press.
asciilifeform: well recall , my vtron was incomplete in the aspect where it assumed that any leaf was pressable per se
asciilifeform: this was clearly explained. then various folks tried to derive a means to auto sort leaves in some meaningful way
phf: mircea_popescu: in the example that i gave, get_ante is the function that establishes graph edges
mircea_popescu: phf the thing remains, it's risky to take tmsr prototypes and extract meaning as if they were definitive canonical implementations of concepts. they aren't, yet.
mircea_popescu: and as more people get involved this will be our bane, because it's really fucking difficult to correctly mark the walls and the scaffolding.
asciilifeform: my vtron was very much a battlefield wunderwaffen, adequate strictly for pressing a well-gardened trb tree that consisted 95% of asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: irl fragile parts like windows get a paint X on them, but here no such luck.
asciilifeform: i still use it
phf: well, there's no issue with that graph presentation, because it produces correct press. it's just that graph is "meaningless" without the toposort. visualizing it doesn't answer any question beyond "this and that share a hash"
mircea_popescu: back to the issue of substance. the idea is that whatever any current implementation may do, a situation where : 1) X takes A from 1 to 2 and B from 1 to 2 ; 2) Y takes A from 2 to 3 and B from 3 to 3 and 3) Z takes A from 2 to 4 and B from 3 to 4 should be represented as X->Y->Z only, and not as X->Y->Z, X->Z
asciilifeform: the basic confusion comes from how we have two uncoupled things tied together with rope
mircea_popescu: yeah, asciilifeform and i think it's time to specify that rope.
asciilifeform: namely 'patchons', actual dependent gibblets, are grouped into patches
asciilifeform: i suggested at one point, to uncouple them
mircea_popescu: i was thinking yest, "the solution here prolly is to forbid X containing multi As".
shinohai: The official tmsr roll 'o duct tape.
mircea_popescu: iirc this was said back in the day, briefly.
phf: right
asciilifeform: i suggested this, iirc, last september
mircea_popescu: somethinglikethat.
asciilifeform: but it has serious down sides
mircea_popescu: chief downside is that we'll need an ide/emacs skin\
asciilifeform: it would permit nonviable chimeras, for instance
mircea_popescu: topological sorting becomes expensive and slow and etc
asciilifeform: suddenly the simplicity aspect would be lost.
mircea_popescu: still, this is a problem in search of a good solution.
mircea_popescu: and phf has a point in that it's not even a very well understood one.
asciilifeform: i am not certain that we have a problem !
asciilifeform: my v works when among gentlemen
mircea_popescu: i mean socially. whether we have a technical problem or not is part of the problem.
phf: i think the problem is "what does v graph supposed to communicate to the viewer"
phf: and ~not~ anything related to a working press
asciilifeform: for instance, and i warned of this from the beginning, v operators are trusted never to create cycles.
mircea_popescu: phf "how did i end up with z and what's its connection to origin"
asciilifeform: there is no handy technopill against cycle
phf: mircea_popescu: right
mircea_popescu: right. and in the example given, X->Z (or rather, Z > X) is not a connection to origin.
phf: so there are two issues with the thinking down that line
phf: one is that edge can indicate independent transitions vs all dependents
mircea_popescu: define these terms ?
phf: let's say you have x->y z->y. in the first case it means "i can press y on top of x" OR "i can press y on top of z"
mircea_popescu: wait, what ?!
asciilifeform: realize, v was something that i was specifically only able to conceive of because i am working with cultured folks who can be relied upon to not shit in the kitchen. operating vtron will always require a good measure of intelligence, wisdom, restraint...
mircea_popescu: oh, something like "either y or z could be pressed on top of x" yeah ok
phf: right
mircea_popescu: right, keep to alphabet order as historical.
phf: the second meaning is, and that one comes up since we have multiple files to a patch, in order to press x i need both y and z.
phf: wait, i think i utterly confused the issue. one sec let me restate it
asciilifeform: thing is, i realized a while back that a leaf depending on other leaves at all, is abuse of v
asciilifeform: leaf must depend only on nonlenleaves.
mircea_popescu: phf please.
asciilifeform: nonleaves
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform understand, it's not just that "if we can't get v to be easily intuitive it won't see mass adoption". it's moreover that if v isn't reducible to crystal fucking clear, we fucked something up.
asciilifeform: and imho it is clear.
asciilifeform: once we stop demanding that it sort leaves somehow
mircea_popescu: i thought so too, but then again this guy's leet py script beat my bash hackery outta water, so let's hear him out.
phf: mircea_popescu: X<-Z Y<-Z, that means that having press to X you can now press Z on top OR having pressed to X you can now press Z on top. alternatively it can mean, in order to press Z you need both X and Y pressed.
mircea_popescu: in my mind, these two are not ambiguous, because correctly working graphaton would represent them respectively as
mircea_popescu: first pair is first, 2nd pair is 2nd
phf: ah, in which case you preserve the idea of "edge in means possible transition"
mircea_popescu: or fuck, seems somehow Z is the antecedent of everything nao ?
mircea_popescu: phf think of it like this : if letter comes earlier in alphabet, item it denotes comes earlier in time-entalpy.
mircea_popescu: x may not know of z ; only z may know of x.
phf: right, that's the basic principle
mircea_popescu: well then don't say stuff like Z->Y.
mircea_popescu: and don't say stuff like <- either. time goes ->
mircea_popescu: darned jews infiltrating tmsr.
phf: antecedent relationship goes backwards though. x<-y perhaps means y points at x as a parent without x's knowledge
mircea_popescu: thinking about it, my enthalpy-based objections seem to come out of left field. somehow it seemed obvious to me that this property of "cone of knowledge" as per particle physics is part of v,
mircea_popescu: but thinking about it nowhere was it said.
mircea_popescu: phf if you use -> ambiguously nobody will be able to think about this, you least of all.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what's the standard term of "enthalpy equivalent in turing machines" ? the shannon factor ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: today it is a unit, shannon, sh
asciilifeform: nobody seems to use tho
mircea_popescu: well what the fuck do they know.
mircea_popescu: ah, no, sh is the equiv of entropy. "count of possible states".
mircea_popescu: perhaps the difference not interesting here.
asciilifeform: ah you wanted enthalpy , hm
asciilifeform: nfi what that would be here
mircea_popescu: ok, more practically speaking : the graphatron is a visualizer of individual patches event horizons. how about that.
mircea_popescu: no need to mix 19th century understanding of qm in shorthand statistical form at all.
mircea_popescu: (event horizon is the boundry past which phenomena can no further affect the observer)
asciilifeform: the opposite?
mircea_popescu: the opposite of a boundry ?
asciilifeform: (if it dn affect the observer, he's not observing!)
asciilifeform: it is the boundary where observer can no longer get sucked into the phenomenon .
mircea_popescu: (event horizon is the boundry whithin which phenomena can affect the observer) << this is a much less intuitive, if technically correct affirmative statement.
mircea_popescu: anywya : as the graph progresses past the antecedent of a leaf, it therefore goes outside the event horizon of that leaf.
mircea_popescu: so if we're drawing and leaf Z requires a in state 3 and we're at state 4, that's it for Z.
asciilifeform: unless we press to z
asciilifeform: recall, thing is steerable
mircea_popescu: that's a press. we're drawing here.
asciilifeform: then yes
asciilifeform: but a drawing of the graph illustrates all pressables.
mircea_popescu: in some sort of eigenstate*
mircea_popescu: it doesn't illustrate all pressables that are, but a sort of all pressables that could ever be.
mircea_popescu: in completely unrelated lulz : the "minimum description length community" (what ? dunno, ask them) changed turing's nit to to "nat", because why the fuck not.
mircea_popescu: modern democracy.
asciilifeform: kicking dead lion is easy.
asciilifeform: expect this unit to be eventually renamed to 'qeer' or the like.
asciilifeform: 1298527/1298527 incidentally.
asciilifeform: and... 37080/38479.
asciilifeform: nearly through.
asciilifeform: good for another hour or so !
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, write it a nice 8ball expander to keep adding primes and that's that, can let it be.
mircea_popescu: 2.15mn is not bad. punkman1 got anywhere with the sr stuff ?
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> browsers frequently pass newlines from forms as \r\n << werd thanks for the quick response :]
asciilifeform: in mostly-unrelated nyooz, fewer nodez today than there were 3y ago.
asciilifeform: and fewer today than last year, etc.
asciilifeform: (speaking of actual nodez, rather than muppets)
danielpbarron: my node is nearly caught up although it seems to always be ~200 blocks behind
asciilifeform: oh this is lovely, check it out,
asciilifeform: Resolving pgp.key-server.io... 67.205.56.66, 2607:f298:6050:6f81:f816:3eff:fec4:e651
asciilifeform: Connecting to pgp.key-server.io|67.205.56.66|:443... connected.
asciilifeform: ERROR: cannot verify pgp.key-server.ioâs certificate, issued by â/C=IL/O=StartCom Ltd./OU=Secure Digital Certificate Signing/CN=StartCom Class 1 Primary Intermediate Server CAâs authority.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: it isn't in the logz prior to now, either.
BingoBoingo: MegaLOL
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: lol i won't even try to guess what you think i should think about the alberta wildfires, but it's pretty damn lulzy to watch the reigning socialist party flail impotently as they attribute the projected 1/3rd loss of ~the country's~ economic growth for the quarter to "karma" because "karbon"
BingoBoingo: Oh, you've talked about the "boomtown" in decline thing going on there for a while
pete_dushenski: 'boomtown' isn't growing at 10-20% per annum, tis true, but it's pretty resilient at these oil price levels. $20 would be a massacre, $40+ is more than liveable
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-08#1464636 << a chunk of this seemingly excess capacity is to account for two things : a) the obvious need for husky bodyguards to accompany asian heads of state, and b) the less obvious need for the same platform to accommodate the optional hybrid battery pack that weighs ~900lbs~ more and takes up most of the trunk.
a111: Logged on 2016-05-08 03:58 BingoBoingo: ;;later tell pete_dushenski re: http://www.contravex.com/2016/05/07/pete-buys-a-minivan/ Exactly how fat are Lexus's typical customers that such a gulf is required between passenger car's curb weight and carrying capacity
pete_dushenski: *asian and no-dick, to be fair
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-05#1463281 << i should probably update my blog links from the old #b-a ones huh, at least my 'reviews' in the right column
a111: Logged on 2016-05-05 12:53 mircea_popescu: meanwhile, check out what ancient lulz i found on pete's blog http://btcbase.org/log/?date=24-07-2014#766538
pete_dushenski: i wish bbet would come back so i could bet on phuctor cracking a deedbot l2 key. seems like the kind of thing no one would expect, like ron paul talking for 10 minutes or w/e it was
pete_dushenski: still weird that znort is awol. she has a key, why not provide updates here ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nice find eh.
mircea_popescu: modern democracy. creating history, since 1950.
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski don't forget armor.
pete_dushenski: armor, batteries, a week's supply of astronaut food...
mircea_popescu: armor's the big thing.
pete_dushenski: though really, what's wrong with being assassinated ? better than irrelevancy in old age
pete_dushenski: ask napolean
pete_dushenski: that'll slow you down more than mysterious dedibox unpluggings
mircea_popescu: yeah. most upper line merc/lexus/what have you have the engine and torque transmission etc optimized for armor even if you're not buying the armor upgrade.
mircea_popescu: also a large part of why diesel upscale cars were popular for so long. excellent torque.
mircea_popescu: kinda died off with the age of rocketry, bout late 90s.
mircea_popescu: no idea why they didn't go full takn and add the gunports, but w/e.
mircea_popescu: "was naturally involved with the prosecution with evil itself offering:" << this dun flow. "was naturally involved with the prosecution:"
mircea_popescu: severe the relationship << sever
mircea_popescu: lol sorry for your laws. epic.
pete_dushenski: gunports make plenty of sense, as does the fact that tmsr will end up redesigning personal transportation along with computing and everything else besides
mircea_popescu: yeah, flying bikesheds.
pete_dushenski imagines cows and catapults
pete_dushenski: btw happy mother's day! (to diana_coman(?), etc.)
pete_dushenski: first one for the girl. no big deal.
asciilifeform: armour worked for lenin.
asciilifeform: but he was an orc.
asciilifeform: 'humans' decided that it is easier/cheaper to lobotomize population
asciilifeform: so 'no one thinks of' firing.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform note that they very carefully don't go places lenin went w/o a thought.
mircea_popescu: rocketry. ended many things.
asciilifeform: long before rocket
asciilifeform: shaped charge.
asciilifeform: and yes, lizards returned to 'forbidden city' model.
mircea_popescu: yeah, but that was only half the answer. rocket also delivers the hsaped charge.
asciilifeform: aha. in the old days you had to bury it.
mircea_popescu: and notice that it did end stuff like the a-h empire.
asciilifeform: in none too distant future, lizards will have to avoid open sky entirely
asciilifeform: as 'quad chopper' from 2000 metres can also deliver shaped charge.
mircea_popescu: well... they already kinda do.
asciilifeform: (and, i will add, NONE of today's vehicles have decent top armour)
pete_dushenski: what's decent ?
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: anything like the side plate
mircea_popescu: he has a point. there is no more decent.
asciilifeform: reactive, say
mircea_popescu: "armor" in vehicles is like "antivirus" in computers.
mircea_popescu: if you got it, you lose.
pete_dushenski: like obummer's 'beast' aha
asciilifeform: at any rate, 'swarm' attack makes the reactive brick a laugh
mircea_popescu: quite exactly. there is no armor.
asciilifeform: so first chopper didn't break you. fine, 2nd, 3rd, 4th.
pete_dushenski: might as well jfkconvertible it then
pete_dushenski: i can see it
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: the problem was solved long ago, by only parading disposable figureheads in public.
asciilifeform: (have you ever seen, e.g., dimon, in a motorcade ?)
pete_dushenski: i just read about zuckerberg's 'sekoority' expenses
pete_dushenski: something like $4-6mn a year ? maybe not much, but more than mp spends, likely
asciilifeform: potus spends more still, what of it
asciilifeform: any idiot with money can spend.
pete_dushenski: so they can, so they do
pete_dushenski: alas, i must unfortunately be off again. will endeavour to return soon. and for longer!
mircea_popescu: the notion that money buys security is not unlike the notion that smegma buys health.
mircea_popescu: (yes, smegma does have some health benefits in some circumstances that you're not likely to encounter, that nevertheless had a larger impact on history of life on earth than anything you ever encountered conceivably could.)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: supposing the money buys anything at all, he is buying http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-04#1462341
a111: Logged on 2016-05-04 04:08 mircea_popescu: two people have an argument and one gets really angry, police can fix this. random derp gets overexcited tries to ship smoke detector shavings to ex gf's mother, police can fix this.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform famous case of central asian conflict, rich guy vs powerful guy, rich guy end up fed liquid gold.
asciilifeform: aha i recall.
mircea_popescu: incidentally that was VERY MUCH a case of usistan vs iranistan.
mircea_popescu: dude was srsly "oh we're too intellectual property to care"
asciilifeform: history of idiot kings is as long as history of kings.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you will prolly appreciate the little bayestard murder gem i've produced:D
mircea_popescu: and in other news, holy shit check out teh scam of teh future : http://infinitythegame.com/whatis.php << why not do all the hard work of computing a rpg BY HAND! and pay 50 pounds per fucking figurine so you can paintakingly reconstruct all the hard work of a gfx card by hand also!
mircea_popescu: next they're gonna sell these schmucks bitcoin mining kids in longhand. 95 dollar special pencil! has a bitcoin logo on it!
deedbot: [Trilema] Multivariate calculus for experts - http://trilema.com/2016/multivariate-calculus-for-experts/
danielpbarron: mircea_popescu> incidentally that was VERY MUCH a case of usistan vs iranistan << iranistan is the actual name of a street around where i live, a word invented by pt barnum (the circus guy) who was the mayor for a time ; he wanted to build his mansion on a street that had an exotic sounding name. The thing has since burned down if i'm not mistaken, and the street is now littered with those getto style houses that look like they sho
danielpbarron: mircea_popescu> and in other news, holy shit check out the scam of the future << sounds like a copy-cat of "warhammer" which I think had a medieval theme; the figures come unpainted and you're supposed to paint them yourself. i think that's more of the point as a little art project although i'm sure the price is ridiculous
mircea_popescu: ha, fancy that. had no idea barnum was a mayor.
mircea_popescu: but anyway : these seem fully built. not that there's anything wrong with buying little mass produced statuettes, it's how the catholic church made half its money.
BingoBoingo: Well, if the idea made money before it is going to get recycled
shinohai: If only they still sold indulgences ...
BingoBoingo: What do you think all those AIDS chairities are?
a111: Logged on 2016-05-06 16:03 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-06#1463998 << no leaving the house!111
davout: also bitbet's heart seems to have started beating again
BingoBoingo: $up joecool
deedbot: joecool voiced for 30 minutes.
deedbot-: accepted: 1
deedbot: [Daniel P. Barron] Unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good. - http://danielpbarron.com/2016/unloving-unforgiving-slanderers-without-self-control-brutal-despisers-of-good/
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron obviously, being a dumb cunt's way worse than being dead.
danielpbarron: dumb cunt in this context is already dead in the spiritual sense
mircea_popescu: possibly. the matter is confused in the original sources.
mircea_popescu: lol danielpbarron slaying teh twatter crowd.
mircea_popescu: " The result was an onslaught of mentions so great that it occasionally caused my iPhone twatter app to crash." << perhaps apple could ~literally~ wink wink nudge nudge buy russia ; then make it crash now and again.
mircea_popescu: http://danielpbarron.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/obeast1.png <<< ahahaha thats pretty good damnation. so twitter at its peak is 100k impressions, 21k "detail expands", 1,2k clicks, 54 replies, 51 likes, 13 retweets and 2 follows.
mircea_popescu: shit bro, that's what, half hour's work a la http://trilema.com/2016/files-from-the-war-on-the-web-today-literotica/ or about four dollars' worth, provided twitter traffic is actually as productive as blind click skim. which it probably isn't.
danielpbarron: the 1.2k "clicks" were to my twatter profile though.. so not nearly as good
mircea_popescu: so twitter can do what, a hundred or two of these a day, and is consequently worth maybe half a million a year, gross ? over an expense account a hundred times that ?
mircea_popescu: nice story.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron aha. seriously, if one sat down to figure the actual value of these social media things, they'd be surprised how well they line up with actual historical datapoints, such as "what slashdot sold for" etc.
danielpbarron: and yeah the "detail expand" is their disingenuous way of fluffing up the "engagement" number
mircea_popescu: (blind click skim, which apparently is entirely unknown to google, as per usual - jesus that shit's worthless, the answers it has you only actually need if you're retarded, and everything else it has no clue about - is this concept from the old days when internet porn still made money, but after the glory days when it made serious money. the silver age so to speak. it consisted of a bunch of people making free tgps [thumbnail
mircea_popescu: preview galleries] as an attempt to entice "users" to sign up with paysites. large affiliate model spawned up. the idea being that whern you click on an image, you're taken somewhere - that's blind click skim.
mircea_popescu: the thing had developped to the degree someone made a thumb sorter sometime in 2002 or so, which sorted the imagaes by how clicked they were, so people could manage their tgps with less effort. as a side yielded all sorts of interesting anthropological results. for instance... hm. shit this is getting more involved than i thought.
mircea_popescu: so : these tgps "traded" traffic with one another like crazy, on the idea that hey, there's a guy here with cock in hand, best sort him out to something he can get off to asap. so very much reminiscent of the egyptian shopkeepers who, if i inquired for an item they didn't have, would run off to a friend/cousin/competitor that did, then take me there and get a small cut of baksheesh.
mircea_popescu: this gave rise to the concept of "traffic productivity", ie, how many clicks you get per users.
mircea_popescu: and it being a business, soon enough it became a matter of skimming the milk. getting some traffic to come in meant you got clicks to send to all the other guys you're trading with which meant they sent you theirs,
mircea_popescu: and so "traffic productivity" became an issue : if your traffic productivity was > 100 (%) that meant that for every click into your thing, you had >1 click to send out, meaning the trades had to send > 1 click in, and then you could explode!
mircea_popescu: but skimming being what it is, people always tried to feed their stuff with shit [say, indian traffic], which'd get high "productivity" but obviously low value (as what indian is spending 30 bux online in 2003?)
mircea_popescu: then this interracted with the tgp sorting algos : you'd end up with a list of thumbnails sorted BY HOW MUCH INDIANS LIKED THEM
mircea_popescu: ah, the history of "internet marketing" is long and interesting indeed.
danielpbarron: i suppose the social media sites can make money letting people like me pay to force people who hate people like me to see the hateful things they hate seeing, which I have actually done :D
mircea_popescu: yes, but this is what's known as the novelty penny.
mircea_popescu: ie, you'll never buy russia on this.
mircea_popescu: (which is WHY i thought it notable barnum was ever mayor)
danielpbarron: yep he was mayor of bridgeport back when bridgeport was the place to be, back when it still had industry
mircea_popescu: anyway, i stand by it, if the year were 2006 and twitter was a tgp, it'd be worth about 600k. which in today's money is maybe 1mn.
mircea_popescu: they claim they're not a tgp, i do not believe so. that's the crux of teh matter. they in point of fact contain no actual content past some thumbnails they cropped out of other people's porn shots.
BingoBoingo: If only we could drop PT Barnum in a contemporary urban walmart
hanbot: mircea_popescu do you think that's true of all ugc hubs?
mircea_popescu: hanbot well... gimme a list of these, what're you thinking about ?
hanbot: well, facebook, etsy, change.org, reddit, entire browser history of the avg. derp
hanbot: as long as it's user generated content, yknow?
mircea_popescu: certainly no different for the various "social media" derpitudes. facebook is so exactly myspace 2.0 it bleeds. reddit somehow thinks it'll escape the fate of digg, which is histerical for anyone who's been online for longer than they've spent in school. what's digg worth today, incidentaly ? EXACTLY the same pittance they're all worth on their own.
danielpbarron: i know it's true of facebook; some youtuber made a thing about how paying for offical promotion caused him to get ~less~ clicks because all the indians diluted out his actual fans
mircea_popescu: otherwise, as you know, art projects, they're worth exactly what the [usg] rich patron says they're worth, for as long as that lasts (not usually long)
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron this is what's so amusing about it - shiot the porn people had figured out 10-15-20 years ago, these schmucks are still innocent of, thoroughly.
mircea_popescu: hanbot i have nfi about etsy really, but stuff like amazon definitely has actual business power behind it. google likes to pretends it does, also. i do not believe them, and the desperation fluff pieces a la "artificial intelligence" are so transparently tailored to satisfy the investor's dream needs (for an investor that's apparently pretty stupid), they count as proof to me.
hanbot: hahaha
mircea_popescu: anyway. amazon has made serious, defensible gains in the important topic of warehouse management. that's worth dough.
mircea_popescu: google had perhaps, in 2002 ; and certainly held great promise, for a decade-ish hence. but it's gone by now. they like to pretend like they know shit, but a cursory examination of search results shows the charade for what it is. they know "a lot for a rock", which is great, except who cares about rocks.
danielpbarron: incidently, amazon is the one thing i ever bought something from after seeing an ad on the web (that i can recall)
mircea_popescu: change.org is, by and large, obama's personal blog - except he doesn't write much and the comment section's self moderated. how is this relevant, his 8 years are up.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron yeah. bezos is one of the very few respectable us business heads.
hanbot: mircea_popescu but wouldja say google is a tgp? or indistinct failbucket?
mircea_popescu: hanbot it even implemented the "sort thumbs by how lcikced they are" thing!
hanbot: lol okay okay
mircea_popescu: so they go around the web clipping bits out of ever site ; and like a tgp they send a lot of traffic to paysites ; and like a tgp their traffic is mostly shit. and etc.
mircea_popescu: people are still clinging on today to this "search engine traffic is best traffic" mantra, which made sense 10 or 15 years ago, without stopping to think for a moment how the context changed.
mircea_popescu: so some douche found your site VIA GOOGLE ? when this, in 2016 ? does this mean he's smart ? knowledgeable ? connected ?
mircea_popescu: or does it mean the best predictor of how much rain water he has in his mouth is whether it's raining ?
mircea_popescu: yes, in 1999 there was ~no way to know wtf was on the web, and so search engine traffic was not selected for being dumber than the average lawyer.
mircea_popescu: today ? selected to be dumber than the average house cat!
trinque: mod6 │ ;;later tell trinque so how can shinohai help build out wiki.deedbot.org? is there some web-code he can write? or perhaps just preparing articles? << talked with him; all he needs to do is register and can start making pages
trinque: this week I'll look at getting the wiki some wotauth
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