Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-04-13 | 2016-04-15 → ↓
mats: ;;up nosuchlabs.com
gribble: Error: "up" is not a valid command.
mats: ;;isup nosuchlabs.com
gribble: nosuchlabs.com is down
ben_vulpes: run moar old hardware
punkman: and hope you can put together a kernel that works with your shit
ben_vulpes: bsd works on everything
punkman: I'd like to believe that
ben_vulpes: hey i got it running on an old macbook pro
ben_vulpes: should do it again, sans x11
ben_vulpes: just give up on graphix
punkman: yeah I got that memo after trying to get 720/1080p video running on 4-5 linux/android SBCs
ben_vulpes: nop.png
punkman: at least half of them commited seppuku
ben_vulpes: wowee you dun say
punkman: been developing a serious aversion to replacing or buying new hardware
ben_vulpes: hoard those old macs while ye can
davout: ;;later tell trinque deedbot still chokes on trailing whitespace in OTPs, and from what i see the OTP comes with this trailing space when decrypted
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: mats yeah. a fucking year with this, if you can believe it.
mircea_popescu: including five straight months of 1/4 gb ram box at close to a btc/month pulling our dicks.
mircea_popescu: at this rate the us army capital utilization efficiency can't be far behind.
mircea_popescu: davout ok, so going through third report : as to note 2-3, so you took out 2.15+0.67314231 = 2.82314231 out of liabilities seeing how the house needn't pay itself, i reckon ? this makes sense.
mircea_popescu: davout doing the shareholder math only for verification, it comes out they should receive 86 BTC from auction - 13.37 your fee + 3.35043347 (1% of 335.04334737 winnings ) + 1.21 (donations) + 2.82314231 (house above) which then with the tx fees comes out right.
mircea_popescu: davout but speaking of which cent, you're not seriously going to make all the payments in one single txn are you ? who knows what other unworking bit of the unspecified protocol that "everyone knows" in retrospect but only after it happens we'll end up discovering.
mircea_popescu: davout so i'm thinking this is all good. getting back to http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-08#1448430 i guess we rectify it to i owe you 199.45006789, you owe me 4.83378422 hw credit + 50 for mpex shareholders + 15.00178846 my share (i'm taking it you'll be paying kakobrekla's directly ?) which leaves a net of 129.61449521. that right ?
shinohai: ;;later tell BingoBoingo http://ix.io/wHv <<< moar ShapeShit junk
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, this bitly thing is out of the www fantasy lmao. " 24/7 Security We’re looking out for you. We have a dedicated IT team monitoring your account 24/7 and guaranteed 99% uptime. We’re always on the lookout, so you don’t have to be."
mircea_popescu: not far away is the day "guarantee 80% uptime" will be an actual sales point.
mircea_popescu: and in yet more lulz, whoa BingoBoingo can you fucking believe the commenter interest in changetip ?! mindboggling.
shinohai: :Unlike the competition, we can gyarantee 81.3% uptime at a minimum"
shinohai: ;;tcker
gribble: Error: "tcker" is not a valid command.
shinohai: ;;ticker
gribble: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 424.94, Best ask: 425.14, Bid-ask spread: 0.20000, Last trade: 424.94, 24 hour volume: 5500.9353489, 24 hour low: 423.0, 24 hour high: 426.49, 24 hour vwap: None
punkman: such stable
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: the url shortener? 24/7?
mircea_popescu: they're hiring, dawg.
mircea_popescu: they have a page with obscure executivs from anodyne shitshows providing social proof. CAREER, hombre.
mircea_popescu: fucking CAREERS at here today gone tomorrow no model no revenue no hope vc inflatatrons
mircea_popescu: i've been chuckling and smirking all morning ; their treat.
mircea_popescu: didja know wiener media is a thing ? hired some chick that shoulda been a stripper to "senior director of something or the other"
mircea_popescu: it never ends.
mircea_popescu: (wenner media, rolling stone magazine publisher, they used to sort-of matter in 1982.)
ben_vulpes idly browses faces on their website, looking for this 'shoulda'
ben_vulpes: there's always one beardo taking photos of the inside of his nostrils
ben_vulpes: lol and lindsay anderson doesn't even give enough of a shit to put up anything other than a party pic
ben_vulpes: and just for lolz, let's see what this looks like in a plain text browser
mircea_popescu: look at those fabulous pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/blabla delays.
ben_vulpes: eeeeeyikes
ben_vulpes: that is not a flattering photo of ms riskin
ben_vulpes: fine way to spend a sleepless night
ben_vulpes: critiquing headshots on shartup websites
mircea_popescu: why aren;t you sleeping again ?
mircea_popescu: anyway ; marissa o'hare was a party girl 15-20 years ago. always lulzy to see gals still clinging on to their "29" pix.
ben_vulpes: the rare deadline about which i give a shit
davout: looks like the web log is not up to date
davout: last entry is 03:27 zulu
mircea_popescu: phf yo log died
davout: mircea_popescu: re your comments, you took the previous hw numbers (i made a small mistake in accounting its amount)
davout: let's go through it
davout: so you owe
davout: ;;calc 1040.78385211 - 841.33337474
gribble: 199.45047737
davout: (you had 199.45006789 which was slightly off due to this hot wallet error)
davout: from this we remove the 50 for mpex shareholders
mircea_popescu: davout meanwhile, accounting points out another snag. specifically, while it's correct that the proceeds of house bets go to shareholders ; it's incorrect that the bets themselves come out of thin air. the bitbet house bets were not a personal gift of mp to the bitbet shareholders, they were an expense undertook by said shareholders, which i generously (and perhaps ineptly) floated for them. so should be on liability side.
davout: ok, let's just finish this first
davout: so we're at
davout: ;;calc (1040.78385211 - 841.33337474) - 50 - (30.00357692 / 2)
gribble: 134.44868891
davout: you substracted the hot wallet amount from this, but it's already taken into account in the 841.33337474
davout: 'cash i have on hand'
davout: ;;calc 750.5 + 86 + (4.25470474 + 0.57867)
gribble: 841.33337474
mircea_popescu: i see no value in using either 1040 or 841 value of unknown provenance.
davout: see, this includes the hot wallet already ^
mircea_popescu: the entirety of my responsibility here is the sum of bets.
davout: sure, then remove 86 from both the 1040 and 841, same difference
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 331.69291390 + 616.53072474
gribble: 948.22363864
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 948.22363864 - 750.5
gribble: 197.72363864
mircea_popescu: now why the fuck doesn't this match that ;/
davout: you need to take 335.04334737, the amount before fees
mircea_popescu: oh oh, the house bets yes.
mircea_popescu: right lessee.
davout: ;;calc (616.53072474 + 335.04334737) - 750.5
gribble: 201.07407211
mircea_popescu: now im lost as to why the fuck i had a 199 figure which matches netiehr of these ;/
davout: ;;calc (616.53072474 + 335.04334737 + 1.21000000 + 1.99978) - 750.5
gribble: 204.28385211
davout: ;;calc 204.28385211 - 4.83337474
gribble: 199.45047737
davout: aaaaaand here we go
mircea_popescu: so right right, that's the right number then, 199.45047737, ie owed bets + refunds - hw.
davout: so that's basically, the sum of bets, the donations, the unhandled zeroconf proposal, minus the hot wallet i already have in hand
mircea_popescu: right. so it's the correct basis there. and the hw is indeed already counted.
davout: owed bets + refunds - hw + donations + unhandled
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 199.45047737 - 50 - (30.00357692 / 2)
gribble: 134.44868891
mircea_popescu: and there we go, matches.
mircea_popescu: alrighty, this is then the correct figure, pending the house bets issue which afaik is the last item.
davout: what's your idea here?
davout: since the last statement there weren't any house bets made amirite
mircea_popescu: my idea is that while it's true that the proceeds from house bets shouldn't be counted against the shareholders - it is at the same time the actual sum of those bets as made should count as a credit for me.
davout: and those before were already accounted for
mircea_popescu: all pending bets count * 0.1
mircea_popescu: how exactly were they already accounted for ?
davout: in "house bets made"
davout: last report has 0.50 in this item
mircea_popescu: i'm sorry ?
mircea_popescu: that is entirely besides the point. for every bet currently open, the "house" put in 0.1 btc.
mircea_popescu: these 0.1 btc came out of my own pocket, as a credit towards bitbet, that now has to be unwound.
mircea_popescu: or alternatively, if you prefer, came out of bettor's funds.
mircea_popescu: whatever it came from - it's not mine to pay for.
mircea_popescu: so : it's true that i don't have to keep the proceeds. it is not however true they're free money.
mircea_popescu: (i imagine you took out the house bet proceeds from liabilities because kakobrekla whined. characteristically for the "partnership" mentality, he forgot to mention this other part.)
davout: you have a point, i'll update the report accordingly
asciilifeform: <mircea_popescu> including five straight months of 1/4 gb ram box at close to a btc/month pulling our dicks. << that thing incidentally has been the ONLY public trb node that has never fallen down. not once.
asciilifeform: while it remains true that this is not why mircea_popescu bought it, this is certainly far from 'usg capitalization' bottom of the ocean.
mircea_popescu: i think for some reason you got the idea that if mp gets phuctor server it's ok to come in, redefine it as "trb node" and move on.
mircea_popescu: this is not how it works.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: send me a signed addr and bill ?
mircea_popescu: im sending you your walking papers if you're going to insist playing the idiot, how about that ?
asciilifeform pictures mircea_popescu as the hruschev in film 'enemy at the gates' - 'you lost battalion, motherfuckers!? lose the other one! or lose yourself!'
mircea_popescu: not even far off.
asciilifeform brb, losing other battalion
phf: logger down, will recover in a few
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> and in yet more lulz, whoa BingoBoingo can you fucking believe the commenter interest in changetip ?! mindboggling. << Seriously.
BingoBoingo: shinohai: ty
shinohai: I think I sent you the copy w/out source BingoBoingo sorry. Was early before I had sufficient coffee.
BingoBoingo: k, resend havent decrypted it yet, or just pm source.
phf: i apologize for downed log, everything's operational, but my backup logs are on a secure machine, that i can't access from mobile. log will be back at 2pm EST
phf: would be nice to have that postgresql connection right about now :)
asciilifeform: phf: i take it your box got disconnected by fleanode, like mine.
phf: yeah, but the bot explicitly doesn't reconnect, because i don't want to lose messages and introduce continuity break. perhaps i should just do that as a "good enough" measure, but i want to just write a communicating-multi-bot setup over the weekend
phf: i.e. n-bots connect and reconcile with each other before submitting shared answer to logotron. if i spread them across fleenode servers should account even for splits
phf bbl
asciilifeform: this sounds spiffy but might introduce strange effects from splits
asciilifeform: (how will multiple conflicting wot ops happening on different sides of n-way netsplit be handled ?)
asciilifeform: deedbot has quit (Read error: error:140D2081:SSL routines:TLS1_ENC:block cipher pad is wrong) << l0lwut?!
trinque: wtf.
trinque: phf: I have not been collecting logs in postgresql because I thought you were going to handle it
trinque: but am not opposed
trinque: wtf re: SSL error
asciilifeform: trinque: i find the ssl barfs interesting, where precisely do they come from in your thing ?
asciilifeform: (i don't recall seeing any ssltronics in the src that was linked here)
asciilifeform: is it part of cl-irc package ?
trinque: yep, it can make use of cl+ssl
trinque: and does in my case
asciilifeform: ;;google TLS1_ENC:block cipher pad is wrong
gribble: Curl: RE: block cipher pad is wrong: <https://curl.haxx.se/mail/archive-2000-11/0033.html>; CS27766 - Cognos Reports fail when using a Trusted root CA ...: <https://support.ptc.com/apps/solution_preview/solution/lang/presolution?lang=en&n=CS27766>; New rules for ignoring noise. (!8) · Merge Requests · riseup ... - GitLab: (1 more message)
asciilifeform: ^ apparently this is a thing
asciilifeform: and, unsurprisingly, no canonical explanation exists
trinque: it happened just as I tried to $up myself
asciilifeform: presumably the only ssltronic link is b/w fleanode and deedbot ?
asciilifeform: btw does everyone remember that fleanode was owned ~2y ago ?
asciilifeform: and 'nothing came of it' ?
asciilifeform: nobody cancelled the whip-the-hellespont thing.
asciilifeform: '...would require people to comply with any authorized court order for data—and if that data is “unintelligible,” the legislation would demand that it be rendered “intelligible.”'
asciilifeform: now the way this kind of monkey trick works is that 'outrageous' draft law in usa is built so as to push 'overton window' and make otherwise plain lunacy appear 'reasonable'.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> btw does everyone remember that fleanode was owned ~2y ago ? << http://btcbase.org/log/2015-11-16#1324993
mircea_popescu: gets restated periodically, hence mircea_popescu: anyway, freenode does not enjoy any degree of tmsr trust afaik.
asciilifeform: i mention it now because, as far as i can tell, the error trinque's bot dies with is a result of undocumented and peculiar misprotocoling on server side.
mircea_popescu: phf kinda curious how you'll solve the various byzantine problems of a multibot setup.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeh there's probably something there.
asciilifeform: openssl was quite consciously ~built~ with the goal of hosting these verminiferous ulcers where server can flip a bit and create a new path through client code that allows the planets to align just-so and... etc
asciilifeform: ftr a number of my boxes were subjected to rather elaborate probing today.
asciilifeform: (message to proberz : probe that is visible to the motherfucking naked eye , regardless of how otherwise original, is an insult to the intelligence of a shoe)
asciilifeform: $up TomServo
deedbot: TomServo voiced for 30 minutes.
TomServo: Thanks, just curious what was original or interesting with the probe you mention?
TomServo: $gettrust deedbot TomServo
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
TomServo: hmph.
asciilifeform: TomServo: merely that someone took the time to actually try services on nonstandard ports, and the bruteforce dict appeared to consist of realistic-looking pws (presumably leaked somewhere or other)
asciilifeform: not the ordinary 10x/daily 'root/toor' crapolade from cn
TomServo: Interesting... saw something similar.
asciilifeform: TomServo: when/where ?
trinque: http://dpaste.com/1S1RC3Y.txt << deedbot.org fail2ban
TomServo: Looks like from Brazil, earlier this morning
asciilifeform: mine was a hetzner.
mircea_popescu: welll since we're doing this...
trinque: asciilifeform: second IP in my paste is hetzner
asciilifeform: oh hey.
trinque: we've got the A team on us, eh?
trinque: then there's 212.129.25.95 who has been careful not to trip fail2ban
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: similar.
asciilifeform: pretty lulzy.
asciilifeform: now perhaps i drank too much mircea_popescutroinium with breakfast today, but now i wonder how often the point of such a port scan is ~the scan per se~ rather than actual logical result thereof.
asciilifeform: 'look we did our j0b!111 check box in 3ring today'
trinque: what, you don't think the best and brightest work at the NSA, I mean the subcontractor for the NSA, I mean the sub-sub...
asciilifeform: trinque: last night i learned that they have... ~women~ at nsa !
asciilifeform: didja know?!
trinque: how inclusive
trinque: $rate TomServo 1
deedbot: TomServo is not registered in WoT.
trinque: $gettrust tomservo
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
asciilifeform: according to maslennikov, kgb ciphers directorate (su nsa) did not use chix.
trinque: $rate TomServo 1
trinque: $v E37DFA225B328852187BD7870400F7CA08DDCEFF2FE2CCA25FCDBF1BC06B6C4E
deedbot: trinque rated TomServo 1
trinque: $gettrust deedbot TomServo
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections.
trinque wonders where the mega-lag is coming from
asciilifeform: Apr 14 13:09:53 <trinque>what, you don't think the best and brightest work at the NSA, I mean the subcontractor for the NSA, I mean the sub-sub... << my current understanding is that 'best and brightest' don't actually work anywhere, they sit in arkakao and eat ice cream with mircea_popescu et al
trinque: box was at like 16% cpu at the time
asciilifeform: trinque: same place as the lag on my trb nodez
trinque: yep
asciilifeform: i suppose usg mitmatron is written in java or sumthing.
asciilifeform: 5-15s lag.
trinque: ENTERPRISE!!!11!
asciilifeform: entrail pies.
shinohai: ;;later tell BingoBoingo /me noticed slight discrepancy with Shapeshit submission.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: $up sbp
deedbot: sbp voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: sbp: you can talk, y'know
asciilifeform: sbp: and ftr i'm fond of bernstein but not of ecc.
sbp: why not of ecc?
sbp: that's some foxy loving. thanks asciilifeform!
sbp: here is some more joy from the Times That People [CD]are Not To Recall:
asciilifeform: sbp: i recommend drinking less - srsly, it worked for some of the folks here...
sbp: ("Max Allen and Ted Nelson discuss the future of computers (1979)")
sbp: hehe
asciilifeform: $gettrust sbp
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
sbp: Nelson mentions that computer is a misnomer, and quoted Von Neumann as calling them all-purpose machines. I tracked that down potentially to https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rdm34/burks.pdf
sbp: (§ 1.2)
trinque: check it out; it's cowboy adlai
sbp: I apologise for not having a PGP presence, the baseline of citizenship
asciilifeform: sbp: this is curable
sbp: I'll forbear my Roman name for now, but perhaps the invocations will come to my fingers sooner or later
phf: so either cmucl or i have finally gone mad. (setq *connection* (irc-connect)) few lines later (error "~a" *connection*). error comes back as "NIL"
sbp: asciilifeform: is Phuctor permadead? (the worst kind of dead)
trinque: sbp: service guarantees citizenship, I thought it was
sbp: trinque: you recall the redistribution of land by Lycurgus of Lacedaemon?
sbp: the joke that most historians neglect to mention is that it didn't apply to slaves
trinque has to depart
trinque: sbp: should you wish to register, just pop your pubkey into deedbot with $register
sbp: thanks
asciilifeform: sbp: nope
asciilifeform: not dead, just sleeping.
shinohai: The usg gave phuctor an overdose of Ambien
asciilifeform: $up sbp
deedbot: sbp voiced for 30 minutes.
sbp: I may have to endure citizenship just to save you from the ignominy of periodic bot commands
asciilifeform: sbp: did i miss the introduction ? who are you ?
sbp: I'm the Alert Reader from Loper 1361. we don't know one another outside of that, sorry!
sbp: long time listener, second time caller, as they say
asciilifeform: sbp: the only unforgiveable offense is tedium. what did you call in to ~say~ ? trivial py proggy ?
sbp: only that, and to enquire about Phuctor. I have not contacted you again for precisely that reason: I abhor tedum too. I did get a copy of Kogge, and I did review it, and I did create various systems based on that. but none were to my liking so far
sbp: the experimentation continues
asciilifeform: sbp: this sounds more interesting. care to discuss the 'various systems' ?
sbp: have you heard of Reverse Polish Lisp? it was a language for the HP-48 I think from 1987. the idea was that it was meant to combine some of the features of lisp, the high level stuff (as high level as they could squeeze into a late 1980s calculator) and the low level Mooreishness of Forth
sbp: well, it was reverse polish at least, not that this is the most interesting feature of Forth
sbp: but this got me thinking about Lisp bytecode, and whether the best bytecode for Lisp might be Forth, in essence
sbp: also, I don't know if you remember, but the Interlisp-D machine had a program called SEdit
sbp: there isn't much about it on the web now. I think I found a single PDF describing it in detail!
sbp: the idea was that you edited the cons cells directly. there was no intermediate ascii representation. in other words, there was no byte array buffer on which the editor acted; the editor acted directly on the s-expressions in the machine
sbp: a bit like how the SCHEME-79 chip worked. that executed the cons cells directly, as you put it
sbp: well SEdit allowed the editorial process, that protean forge, to work in like direct manner
sbp: so I spent some time thinking about how scoping would work if *lexical* scope were bound to s-expressions and not the ascii representations of programs. because when you think about it, that's all that lexical scope is: it's an artefact of ascii representation, and I thought that perhaps this was not the lispy way
sbp: what I realised was that when you couple scope to s-expressions in this way, it essentially becomes a system of runtime assertions in which you can model not only lexical AND dynamic scope—by choice!—but other kinds of hitherto unexplored scopes too
sbp: the drawback is that because you depend on execution frames (or whatever) for the data, which is what allows the use of dynamic scope of course, this has to be done at runtime. lexical scope would usually be computed at compile time
sbp: I'm not sure I care awfully about the runtime constraint. ("two speeds" of a computer and all that)
sbp: this was all made a lot easier by using de Bruijn notation internally for variables by the way
sbp: when you look at lambda calculus, you get most lacklustre computer scientists talking about alpha-renaming and all this stupid shit that gets in the way, but when you use de Bruijn notation that stuff disappears entirely. it's an epiphenomenon, one of Ptolemy's epicycles
sbp: I also fixed macros, created a previous unheard of macro system which is hygienic without being asinine like all current macro hygiene systems
sbp: but perhaps my favourite thing was that I managed to fix fexprs
sbp: I mean I figured out how to make them compilable
sbp: you remember that Mitchell Wand proved that the theory of fexprs is trivial? i.e. that fexprs cannot actually be compiled, and they must therefore be runtime components
sbp: yeah, well the answer to that is in itself trivial. a child could have come up with it
sbp: Wand's theory, and all the other pissing against fexprs from Pitman onwards, is based on the untyped lambda calculus. naturally. and lisp is untyped in this sense; the types come at runtime
mircea_popescu: hello sbp. who were you again ?
sbp: well, we make one concession to make fexprs that we can compile
sbp: fexprs as arguments to functions must be typed. that's it. that's all we need
sbp: greetings mircea_popescu! I am Sean B. Palmer, very pleased to meet you
sbp: I was invited here by asciilifeform about an hour ago
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> 'look we did our j0b!111 check box in 3ring today' << seems altogether likely, this.
asciilifeform: sbp: i've played with the xerox structure editor
mircea_popescu: $gettrust sbp
asciilifeform: and the hp48 lisp
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
mircea_popescu: sbp you got a pgp key ?
sbp: mircea_popescu: no, but I can generate one. I was going to say "easily", but you know what software is like
asciilifeform: sbp: your observation re lexical scope makes no sense to me
asciilifeform: didja read sicp ?
sbp: asciilifeform: how did you find SEdit? I have only spoken to one friend who used the Interlisp-D machine, and I don't think he said anything about SEdit
asciilifeform: at no point is the 'ascii representation of the code' the pertinent item
mircea_popescu: sbp if you do you'll be able to maintain a presence here / participate in wot etc.
asciilifeform: sbp: i don't recall it being sedit, but some msdos emulator thing called 'medley'
asciilifeform: (i do not own any of the ancient and unobtainable xerox lispm iron)
asciilifeform: sbp: what is asinine about, e.g, scheme's, hygienic macros ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> sbp: yer comment approved, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1545&cpage=1#comment-17716 << can you translate this in vspeak ?!
asciilifeform: holy fuck phf log's been dead all this time
asciilifeform: and i cannot link mircea_popescu to anything
sbp: I was perhaps disingenuous about ascii being the pertinent item. after all, as I say, I could do lexical scope without the ascii representation
mircea_popescu: and holy shit is life impossible without the log. phf when's it 2pm already omaygerd.
phf: asciilifeform: it's a fail
asciilifeform: this 'deliberately don't reconnect' thing is mega-lame imho
mircea_popescu: sbp for my curiosity, you familiar with the state of republican debate on items such as utf and ascii generally ?
phf: asciilifeform: there's nothing wrong with deliberate don't reconnect, twice that happened and nobody cared or noticed
mircea_popescu: phf odds are that was because people were yet not relying on it for work process ?
sbp: okay, I have my GPG key exported. https://dpaste.de/fZPN/raw
phf: nope, three days ago was the last one
sbp: and deedbot is gone. long live deedbot!
mircea_popescu: sbp $register <fingerprint>
phf: there's normally a max half hour with no restarts delay between
mircea_popescu: no way ?!
mircea_popescu: do not take the bot name in vane!
sbp: d**dbot
phf: there's an unrelated heisenbug, that i'm failing to fix, hold tight
sbp: I guess it's going to try to grab from pgp.mit.edu?
phf: i would like to point out, that the log has been operational for whole two weeks, it's not quite up to standard of the incrementally constructed, 3 year tested, former b-a
mircea_popescu: sbp i don't recall exactly ; possible tho.
mircea_popescu: phf inacceptabru.
sbp: $register 5D7C0216D9809D44825DFD237CAC2A4BC2F2DA35
phf: maybe if i wrote it in ada, it'd be boing 747 on the first try
deedbot: Import failed for 5D7C0216D9809D44825DFD237CAC2A4BC2F2DA35.
mircea_popescu: trinque remind me, could he give pubkey directly ?
sbp: must, fight, entropy
sbp: apparently not
mircea_popescu: sbp infrastructure just got re-built a coupla weeks ago, ironing out bugs still.
deedbot: sbp voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform did you give him a bunch of links or is he this lively by nature ?
sbp: the link there has expired — http://dpaste.com/3EAX9QH.txt
mircea_popescu: sbp try using dpaste.com rather than .de see ?
sbp: will give it a go
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i don't know the fella at all, but he appears to read my www, that's all i know.
asciilifeform: and no i didn't hand-feed him.
sbp: tried it in private to avoid spamming the channel, but I still get failed import
sbp searches bitcoin-assets log for previous registrations
mircea_popescu: sbp bot seems to be in a smashed state. maybe can'\t get outbound connections, we'll see in a bit.
sbp: "Searching pgp.mit.edu for key with fingerprint"
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, can you actually translate that comment yourself ?
sbp: oh, certainly
sbp: asciilifeform issued a little trivial challenge in the post, directed to the "alert reader", to decode the seal examples that he gives from his single byte encodings into human readable form
mircea_popescu: sbp> why not of ecc? <<< it's in the logs! but in summary : direct equivalent of the obscurantist practice of "whitening" except with math rather than rngs.
mircea_popescu: a sort of ellaborate peekabo.
sbp: I know he just meant alert reader generally, but he did a previous post where one of our chatlogs was titled "the alert reader", and so I decided to take up the challenge anyway because I was curious as to what the encodings were—I wanted to understand how the seals were intended to be used
asciilifeform: the claim of 'this key has fewer bits but more secure than rsa' is esp. galling, because there is NO PROOF of it available in the open literature
sbp: the code was trivial, but I decided to show it to asciilifeform to avoid duplication of effort
sbp: he invited me to post the code to the weblog, and the rest is history
asciilifeform: yeah i was also not able to make sense of it.
sbp: oh, the spoilers refer to having solved the challenge set in the post. spoilers in the sense of spoiling the end of a movie
asciilifeform: all i saw was a buncha-'vexual'-style salad and a link to a very trivial proggy that de-enumerates the bits.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform however the reverend of nyssa's mockery is quite on point you know :D
mircea_popescu: law french lulz.
sbp: I don't know why I wrote it in the style of a Klondike gold prospector era huckster salesman
mircea_popescu: sbp the cardinal sin of writing is to not know why you chose a style.
sbp: ah, where's the fun in that
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform (it was old norman, a marginal dialect of french, disused in france due to paris ascendancy, that survived as a very intricate technical language via oxford law uni.)
sbp: if I were a member of the Guugu Yimithirr I could perform such cardinal sins more easily
sbp: (the "Australian Aboriginal people the Guugu Yimithirr have no words denoting the egocentric directions in their language; instead, they exclusively refer to cardinal directions")
sbp: they did an experiment once where they took a member of the tribe and flipped him around really fast
sbp: after the spin he still knew which direction was which. quite incredible
sbp: I saw something recently where they gave people a belt, and it buzzed in whichever direction was north, to give them haptic feedback as to cardinal directions. they seemed moderately annoyed to indifferent about the belt when wearing it, I recall
sbp: but once the belt was gone, they really missed it
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i am familiar with 'law french' aha
asciilifeform: an early lojban, you could even say.
mircea_popescu: the problem of how to prevent the failure mode is of course still open.
mircea_popescu: sbp you got a prototype of this fexpr compiler thing somewhere ?
sbp: nope, I started working on the bytecode stuff straight after that
sbp: well, that is intended to be the compiler target of course. but I haven't finished that yet
asciilifeform: sbp: my conclusion re fexprs was that 'we can't compile this' is in ~all cases an 'epicyclic' restatement of 'our hardware is rubbish'
mircea_popescu: what's wrong with shutt's expansion, if you absolutely want reflectivity
mircea_popescu: or what exactly is the purpose here, i dun rightly follow.
sbp: Wand and Shutt kept arguing about whether Shutt's expansion even worked, and I don't know the outcome of that. but let's say that Kernel (Shutt's language) does work—it's syntactically somewhat unwieldy. typing the fexprs to the arguments is very clean and easy to follow
sbp: I could certainly accept uncompilable fexprs as being an expression of rubbish hardware though
mircea_popescu: so you have a fundamental objection to syntactical convention and a syntactic convenience objection to a fundamental solution.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a 'fexpr' is essentially a first-class macro.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha.
asciilifeform: see (surprisingly, not a bad summary) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fexpr
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lol check it out, R in see also! MATHS!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fexprs incur no penalty or otherwise problem in an interpreted lang, or, for that matter, a proper lispm
asciilifeform: (which is really a hardware embodiment of an interpreter, if built correctly)
mircea_popescu: some people wanna compile, whatevs.
sbp: yeah, but the rats are on the chips these days
sbp: so a pure lisp chip like SCHEME-79 would still be cool
sbp: maybe even open hardware! maybe even auditable! imagine that!
asciilifeform: sbp: how do you propose to bake an auditable ic ?
asciilifeform: you can put quartz window, eprom-style, but metal is opaque...
asciilifeform: what does it mean to have an 'open hardware' ic ?
asciilifeform: if it means that, given a $B another fella can attempt to replicate, this does not mean much.
asciilifeform: realize that copying a chip mask is a vanishing fraction of the cost of baking an ic
sbp: yeah, even if you took a batch and decapped all of them but one, I suppose you wouldn't know for sure that that wasn't the exploited one. I don't know if it's possible to make a chip that you can audit before it's running
asciilifeform: (ussr made perfectly serviceable pdp clones without understanding a whit of how the thing worked)
sbp: I suppose there's always the FPGA route
asciilifeform: sbp: where do you intend to get a usable fpga ?
sbp: I dunno man. turtles all the way down, and I don't trust any of them
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al: i'ma have to link to the old logz,
asciilifeform: sbp ^ there ARE NO FPGA
asciilifeform: that are worth the paper they're printed on.
sbp: "and only xilinx's closed turd knows where they are in the routing fabric" — ugh
asciilifeform: sbp: at present time, not only do you not know what is in the package, but the build chain is several dozen GB of closed x86 turd.
asciilifeform: for ALL fpga.
sbp: don't, you'll give me nightmares. worse ones, I mean
asciilifeform: there is literally nothing on the market that does not fit this description.
asciilifeform: $up sbp
deedbot: sbp voiced for 30 minutes.
sbp: maybe we have to wait another generation or two before we can fab chips at home
mircea_popescu: so other than waiting generations, we and so forth, what is it you do ?
sbp: researcher of early modern history turned freelance programmer
sbp: or vice versa, I forget. maybe both
mircea_popescu: anything i can see ?
sbp: the history, or the programming? https://github.com/sbp/ contains some of my utterly trivial shite
mircea_popescu: no, not utterly trivial shite. the stuff that you are proud of and pointedly accept as the superset of your capacity and abilities.
sbp: none of that on the web, thank goodness
mircea_popescu: hm. we could then correctly say your real life hasn't begun yet ?
sbp: potentially. but Emily Dickinson locked her poems into a drawer, and they only got out again by chance
sbp: William Blake was going to burn his works. maybe he did!
sbp: Crabb Robinson said that he talked him out of it
sbp: we don't know how many works Sappho wrote
sbp: the only surviving copy of the biography that numbers her works has a hole in it
sbp: right where the number is
sbp: asciilifeform: did you see this? http://dump.mntmn.com/interim-paper/
sbp: it's the most Loper-like thing I have seen outside of Loper
sbp: must dash for a bit—in case I lack the +v upon my return, it has been a pleasure. thanks for the chat
asciilifeform: sbp: there is imho nothing interesting about yet another x86 os.
asciilifeform: or, even less interestingly, 'raspberry'.
asciilifeform: understand, DESCRIPTIONS of the problem of complexity cancer ~abound~.
asciilifeform: let's zoom into the pertinent bits in the link,
asciilifeform: 'Fast and simple Microcontrollers like Teensy 3.1 (based on Freescale ARM Cortex-M4 MPU) can be used as a "poor man's GPU" to generate VGA text or graphics output. '
asciilifeform: 'I developed a version of Interim (then called "Bomberjacket OS") that boots on a standard Intel x86 PC as well as a version that runs on the ARM-based Raspberry Pi low-cost computer. '
asciilifeform: 'I ported a USB driver, a network driver, an SD card reader and a low-level driver for the Pi's VideoCore IV GPU. '
asciilifeform: i stopped reading here.
asciilifeform: because 'solution' that reduces to 'let's drop in this closed turd and pretend it does not exist' is NOT INTERESTING.
asciilifeform: ~everything this hard-working fella did, i did IN SCHOOL
asciilifeform: as motherfucking HOMEWORK.
asciilifeform: it is ~trivial~ to craft a toy os for x86.
asciilifeform: it is also trivial to craft a scheme interp for same
asciilifeform: undergrad project. literally.
asciilifeform: what is ~not~ trivial is to not build a house of cards that falls over when you try to do something useful.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-14#1451827 << i was just being facetious
a111: Logged on 2016-04-14 16:00 trinque: phf: I have not been collecting logs in postgresql because I thought you were going to handle it
mircea_popescu: phf has a very solid fear of failure does he.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in other "solutions to x86 problems and assorted lulz" news, http://trilema.com/2015/facebook-sends-traffic11eleven/#comment-117016
asciilifeform: i saw! fascinating:
phf: moscow highschool has its downsides.
asciilifeform: 'BENEFITS GIVEN TO NEW MEMBERS WHO JOIN ILLUMINATI. 1. A Cash Reward of USD $500,000 USD 2. A New Sleek Dream CAR...' << i find the ustard leper's bell ringing here
asciilifeform: dontcha ?
asciilifeform: srsly, 'CAR' ?
asciilifeform: it is interesting how auto figures in 'rich' fantasy of a ustard
asciilifeform: CADADDR!
felipelalli: what is going on with deedbot?
mircea_popescu: be specific ?
shinohai: felipelalli: wrong deedbot
shinohai: hmmm deedbot- isn't here :/
felipelalli: shinohai, that's why I asked what is going with "that" deedbot- :)
mircea_popescu: ah ah. felipelalli will have to wait a little - trinque was updating the two bots to merge into one.
felipelalli: nice!! I'd suggest that! :D
shinohai: sweet.
asciilifeform: also am i the only one who doesn't grasp the point of deedbotting dealings outside wot, with randos ...
mircea_popescu: it gotta expand somehow.
asciilifeform: 'Declaro que devo transferir o equivalente a R$ 300,00 (segundo índice BRXBT do momento do envio) para o endereço 1BVkspu64adYhRP3cBvvxXbjyWFfyKyVGG que pertence ao RHAMA BONITAO, que
asciilifeform: infelizmente está fora da civilidade, no máximo 48h após a entrega da
asciilifeform: diagramação do manual da coldwallet da Walltime.
asciilifeform: 'RHAMA BONITAO' doesn't look like a pgp pubkey to me...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how does this expand wot ?
mircea_popescu: this isn't a question that needs an answer. if it works for him it works!
mircea_popescu: if he wants to make it work better, he can.
asciilifeform: this is less of a cricitism of ' felipelalli wastes hdd space !111' but more of 'does he grasp that RHAMA BONITAO is not an entity on our planet '.
mircea_popescu: the expression tho, "belongs to X who unfortunately is outside the walls" is pretty great.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform inasmuch as the deal doesn't concern you, what "our" planet ?
mircea_popescu: obviously it's on his planet!
asciilifeform: no, this is fundemental, i can make this observation without knowing anything about felipelalli or BONITAO
mircea_popescu: what observation ?
asciilifeform: it is cryptographically suffering from 'promisitis'
mircea_popescu: i sleep with women without giving them fingerprint tests!
asciilifeform: but you don't publicly swear oaths to anon chix id'd by their stage namez
mircea_popescu: not normally.
mircea_popescu: some people do marry, mind.
asciilifeform: picture 'i, 17215D118B7239507FAFED98B98228A001ABFFC7, hereby proclaim that i owe a quintillion zimbabwellars to the man in the grey coat!'
mircea_popescu: and you see a problem with this ?
mircea_popescu: content of deed is entirely imperio deedorum.
asciilifeform: only to the extent i see a problem with a bloke nailing his balls to a wall with a ball peen hammer.
asciilifeform: his - i suppose - own business.
mircea_popescu: this is how science works!
mircea_popescu: by letting people use good tools in ways that make sense to them, and them only.
mircea_popescu: your job is merely to make sure the bal peen hammer is exceptionally ball peeny.
asciilifeform: but it doesn't hurt to point out - once - that what the fella is holding is indeed his balls, and with other hand - hammer, nail.
asciilifeform: just in case he doesn't grasp it.
mircea_popescu: well if you happen to read portuguese it is obvious from the deed he does so grasp it, i thought.
asciilifeform: does it follow from the fact of him holding the balls'n'hammer that he grasps ?
mircea_popescu: "infelizmente está fora da civilidade".
felipelalli: ahaahahah :D
felipelalli: this contract is fine to him (my counterpart "Rhama Bonitao"). I do not run any risk because I get him service first. So, the worst scenario is if I do not pay him, and he has a concrete proof that I promised to pay him. It works, I did it many times before.
felipelalli: anyway, totally agreed with mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: also known as singularily opposable contracts or w/e you call declaratory contracts in english
felipelalli: this contract is public but is not your business
felipelalli: I didn't mean to be rude, I'm sorry. You can ask anything and I'll asnwer, feel free! :)
asciilifeform: i fully grasp that it is none of my business
asciilifeform: but i did wonder what felipelalli was trying to accomplish by deedbotting a transaction with a fella having no mathematical identity.
asciilifeform: that's all.
asciilifeform hands hammer back to felipelalli
felipelalli: asciilifeform, thank you to worry! <3 :)
felipelalli: Can I keep hammering the deedbot?
mircea_popescu: in other unrelated historical bits,
mircea_popescu: "Ya es tiempo de dejarnos de teorías, que 24 años de experiencia no han producido más que calamidades. Los hombres no viven de ilusiones, sino de hechos: ¿qué me importa que se me repita hasta la saciedad que vivo en un país de libertad si por el contrario se me oprime?... ¡Libertad! désela usted a un niño de tres años para que se entretenga por vía de diversión con un estuche de navajas de afeitar, y usted me con
mircea_popescu: tará los resultados. ¡Libertad! Para que un hombre de honor se vea atacado por una prensa silenciosa, sin que haya leyes que lo protejan y si existen se hagan ilusorias. ¡Libertad! Para que si me dedico a cualquier género de la industria, venga una revolución que me destruya el trabajo de muchos años y la esperanza de dejar un par de bocados a mis hijos. ¡Libertad! Para que se me cargue de contribuciones a fin de pagar
mircea_popescu: los inmensos gastos originados porque a cuatro ambiciosos se les antoja por vía de la especulación, hacer una revolución y quedar impunes. ¡Libertad! ¡Libertad!...Maldita sea la libertad, ni será el hijo de mi madre el que vaya a gozar de los beneficios que ella proporciona, hasta que no vea establecido un gobierno que los demagogos llamen tirano y me proteja contra los bienes que me brinda la actual libertad."
mircea_popescu: jose de san martin (prolly my favourite south american) discussing the despotism of de rosas.
gribble: Error: "deed" is not a valid command.
trinque: ah I didn't release that code yet then
trinque: o wait :p
deedbot: gpg: BAD signature from "Felipe Micaroni Lalli (OTC bitcoin user felipelalli, btc address 1LipeR1AjHL6gwE7WQECW4a2H4tuqm768N) <micaroni@gmail.com>"
trinque: huh weird
trinque: I'll join the other one for now, but will probably get the above going this evening.
trinque: $up deedbot-
deedbot: deedbot- voiced for 30 minutes.
deedbot-: rejected: 1
trinque: ah I see what it is
davout: trinque: utf8
TomServo: Did assbot's WoT not get imported to deedbot?
trinque: ben_vulpes: halp, need utf8 header
trinque: davout: yar
trinque: TomServo: yeah it did; you were just in there as lowercase
trinque: I've yet to go back and make all the queries case insensitive
mod6: werd up
felipelalli: this is a known old bug of wotpaste
felipelalli: (the wrong header)
trinque: felipelalli: put it on dpaste and feed via $deed as above
felipelalli: sure, thank you!
davout: trinque: same problem on bitbet's contract http://mpex.co/assets/s.bbet-2FB7B452.txt mircea_popescu's sig only verifies if utf8 is forced
trinque: computers are hard
davout: computers are racist
deedbot-: accepted: 1
trinque: yeah or that
trinque: felipelalli: if the deedbot- one is gone, that'll mean use $deed <deed-url> after that
felipelalli: trinque, thank u
trinque: davout: lol
trinque: I bet he loves the iPad
trinque: for science...
deedbot: Primary key fingerprint: 9E08 5248 33CB 3038 FDE3 85C5 4C0A FCCF ED5C DE14
davout: mircea_popescu: so i'm in the process of updating the report
davout: working on this 'add a house bets item on the liabilities side'
davout: thing is i can't simply do 0.1 btc * number of outstanding bets because some of the house bets expenses have *already* been accounted against the shareholders
davout: and just because the liabilities amount is reduced by the payments that are made back to the house does not imply the converse is true for house bets, as the 'house bet' expense has no particular reason to be accounted for in the same month the 'house bet winnings' are accounted for
davout: so basically my point is that while i'm ok to add a bitbet liability to you for every bet that was seeded after the january report, every house bet that came before that was already paid for by the shareholders
davout: in other words, yes, you have been floating this expense, but only until it was settled in a monthly report by deducting it from the profits you distributed to shareholders
mircea_popescu: davout> thing is i can't simply do 0.1 btc * number of outstanding bets because some of the house bets expenses have *already* been accounted against the shareholders << how and where ?
davout: previous reports state house bets as an expense, this expense is in turn deducted from revenue and reduces the distributed profits to shareholders
mircea_popescu: you mean feb report, prev report ?
davout: i mean previous ones
mircea_popescu: right, up to march 1st exclusive ?
davout: if a bet was seeded in december it's already paid for by shareholders, if a bet's been seeded mid february you have been floating it
mircea_popescu: this is correct.
davout: anything bet seeding that came after the january report should be accounted as a liability to you
mod6: does anyone know python and wanna give me like 5 minutes of help?
davout: s/anything/any/
mircea_popescu: re gpg verification : yeah, guy's name, special char.
mircea_popescu: davout as a liability to bitbet / owed to me you mean ?
davout: i did not say 'liability to bitbet', did i?
mircea_popescu: the use of to is confusing, but okies!
davout: in other words, for every bet that was seeded after the jan. report i owe you .1 btc
davout: sounds right?
mircea_popescu: it does.
davout: this makes me happy
mircea_popescu: you're easy to please :)
davout: i see the end of the tunnel
davout: so the next question is obviously, 'which bets have been seeded after the january report?'
davout: or more precisely, which bet seedings have not been accounted fo ryet
davout: i can simply compare the minimum bet timestamp for each proposal with februart fouth
davout: *fourth
davout: no scratch that, the number of 'accepted bets' as reported in the february statement would do
mircea_popescu: since no further accepted after ?
davout: march report makes no mention of any such accepted proposals
mircea_popescu: Bet started:1 month 4 days ago (11-03-2016) << i think p
davout: but i guess i'd have to double check against the actual data i have in the DB, might as well go and find the information there directly
mircea_popescu: i think some got accepted in march also
davout: ok, i'll go for checking the DB then
mircea_popescu: but yes i think end of tunnel is right. by now we're discussing bitcents, it's pretty well pinned down.
davout: they're important, after all bitcoins are made of bitcents
mod6: bitcoins are made of integers
davout: serious shane is so serious
mod6: haha
mod6: i was just pointing back to last weeks conversation about the nature of a coin. a float, 'tis not. :]
mircea_popescu: it's because of all that kinkley he drinks
mircea_popescu: makes his face all astringented.
mod6 goes back to wrestling with python
mircea_popescu: mod6 btw, dun ask to ask! i dunno python that well, but mebbe if i knew what you needed ?
shinohai: Maybe he's wrestling with wrong python and should seek professional female help :D
mircea_popescu: that he has.
mod6: i need someone to help me turn this into something that works:
mod6: best I can seem to get is this:
mod6: NameError: global name 'sequences' is not defined
mircea_popescu: sounds like a scoping issue
mod6: yeah. i dunno anything about python, or even how to really run this thing properly.
mircea_popescu: maybe add some self. in defs ?
mircea_popescu: ie, instead of def sequences(blabla) def self.sequences(blabla)
trinque: mod6: maybe the guy meant "collections" ?
trinque: from collections import index
trinque: ah shit what was it, I just did it
trinque: the above doesn't work
mircea_popescu: mod6 if you actually care enough, iirc the site had a decent manual/tutorial
mircea_popescu: python.org
mod6: i actually don't care /that/ much. im trying to wrap my brain around the truth table for the d6, with three rolls.
mod6: thought the program might help a bit.
mod6: cause really, i don't care baout the d6, i need to invent the table for d16
mircea_popescu: dig through the guy's site also, he has various extensions/improvements discussed.
mod6: i guess it's just the same thing with more values, just was going to try to mod this guys shit to see if I did it right so i dont shoot myself in the face
mod6: i'll probably just re-write it in perl. sigh. fucking hate python.
trinque: could be the index builtin on list, and he didn't bother to show that list in his code
trinque: sequences being a global list
mod6: its like the worst of all worlds, some OO, some lisp, some indentation bullshit.
trinque: it's pretty bad.
davout: mod6: try riby!
davout: *ruby
davout ducks
trinque: that's a demerit
mod6: heheh. that's pretty ugly there too.
mod6: i'll just write one up tonight. i just tried to cheat a bit by using this one.
trinque: I learned recently that the "inventor" of ruby is a japanese mormon
trinque: somehow that fits
davout: a mormon?
davout: didn't know
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: (message to proberz : probe that is visible to the motherfucking naked eye , regardless of how otherwise original, is an insult to the intelligence of a shoe) << qntra was hit hard with a comment spam cannon. Will take time to clean up approval que.
mod6: <+trinque> somehow that fits << haha
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: sbp: i recommend drinking less - srsly, it worked for some of the folks here... << That step 1
shinohai: After Birthday celebrations tomorrow I shall drink no more for a while.
shinohai just can't quit.
asciilifeform: in other 'news',
asciilifeform: my 'ibm model F 122-key' is here.
asciilifeform: 1/2 cm thick steel pedestal and all.
asciilifeform: the springs, would you believe, sound like shamisen strings when pressed.
asciilifeform: smoothest action i've ever felt.
ben_vulpes: trinque: roger, will do
mod6: oooh, i get this decision table now. if r1=4, r2=6, r3=3, then i yield a final value of 2.
mod6: why was that so hard? i think the example is maybe just not very well, um, explained? i dunno
mod6: ive been lookin at this for /way/ too long.
BingoBoingo: 188.143.234.* and 188.143.232.* shame on you
shinohai: Also BingoBoingo thanks for preserving the "Shapeshit" spelling as I intended.
BingoBoingo: no problem
shinohai: ^__________^
asciilifeform: mod6: what are you trying to do ?
mod6: i need to make one for a d16
mod6: the first step was understanding wtf was going on with the arrows going up/down or up/down/down, up/up/down, down/up/up, down/down/up
mod6: or w/e
mod6: now just need to expand for 16
deedbot-: [Qntra] Bitcoin Difficult Increased ~7.09% - http://qntra.net/2016/04/bitcoin-difficult-increased-7-09/
mod6: dang
davout: BingoBoingo: s/Difficult/Difficulty/
davout: mircea_popescu: report update is up
mod6: I think this would work right? http://dpaste.com/1GP2X8Q.txt
BingoBoingo: ty Monsieur Francois
davout: makes me think about señor chang
davout: EL TIGRE
mircea_popescu: davout so we're at
mircea_popescu: ;;google 134.44868891 -.8
gribble: No matches found.
mircea_popescu: ;;caulk 134.44868891 -.8
davout: lol
gribble: Error: "caulk" is not a valid command.
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 134.44868891 -.8
gribble: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
davout: hahaha
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 134.44868891 - 0.8
gribble: 133.64868891
davout: no
a111: Logged on 2016-04-14 12:27 davout: ;;calc (1040.78385211 - 841.33337474) - 50 - (30.00357692 / 2)
BingoBoingo: ;;cawk
gribble: Error: "cawk" is not a valid command.
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 199.45047737 - 0.8 - 50 - ((30.00357692 -0.8)/ 2)
gribble: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
mircea_popescu: what the everloving
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 199.45047737 - 0.8 - 50 - (30.00357692 -0.8)/ 2
gribble: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
mircea_popescu: 134.04868891 in any case
davout: ;;calc (1040.78385211 - 841.33337474) - 50 - (29.20357692 / 2) - 0.8
gribble: 134.04868891
mircea_popescu: hey frenchy, you do your math i do mine!
davout: mircea_popescu: see? that's how it's done, just use numbers. NUM- BERS.
mircea_popescu: dumbers!
mircea_popescu: anyway, aite, will be sending it tomorrow. same addy as in your original deed.
billy_mays: but wait, there is more!
mircea_popescu: there was enough of that!
davout: kakobrekla informs me he has something to bring up, details to follow
davout: either way, i'm going to bed, it's late here
mod6: night davout
mod6: If we basically just tagged bitcoin in V as is today, then we could possibly start working on the implementation of the prereqs above.
mod6: I personally have hardly even begun to look at what/where/how these code changes would need to take place in the current cod.
mod6: *code
mircea_popescu: mod6 well one major question to be decided is : obviously there's the project of cleaning up extant bitcoin code ; by the discussion re july of forks, there's also the proposal to start a separate project to make an "ideal bitcoin". this proposal wasn't ever seriously discussed and i dunno that it ever was actually accepted as such.
mod6: But starting might just be half the battle. We'd have to go through a process of perhaps identifiying first, where to swap out SHA2-256 for SHA3-512. (whatever needs to be included, what structures and fields need to be lengthened, etc)
mircea_popescu: so one thing is you know, to come to some sort of decision on what to do there. strategy-wise, as it were.
mircea_popescu: the other point, whatever may be decided on the previous point, is to make some sort of roadmap or even ideally graph of parts and then see who can do what and so on
mircea_popescu: they're pretty large issues.
mircea_popescu: but you know, i think blind enthusiasm has carried us about as far as it will ; moreover, everything has its time and place.
mod6: fair enough.
mircea_popescu: can't sprint everything forever, it's just not possibru.
mod6: so i guess there are short term and long term initiatives: Short term (for this summer, 12 weeks from now) it might suit us well to have a SHA3 bitcoin in our back pocket. And with some mapped/planned out work there, would still be a long shot, but possible, I suppose. Long term (1+ year or more?), concurrently there could be work towards an actual hardfork with an ideal bitcoin written in something, such
mod6: as Ada. We've all kicked it around a bunch about the lang, and I'm not sure we're all sold on Ada. But seems like a step in the correct direction overall.
mircea_popescu: well, there's two classes of arguments pro iB that i can readily see. one's very fundamental : the code is shit, the "grandfather pistols" thing will only go so far, it is by its nature finite in utility. eventually the trhing will have to be redone well. it is, after all, a misuded prototype.
mircea_popescu: the other's very practical : every halving is a difficult time for bitcoin. it's a more or less homeostatic structure, which means that with some periodicity will go into crisis. you don't know what crisis will rupture a vessel and give it an aneurism, but it is indubitable that the quality of alternative on offer is the best measure of its lfie expectancy.
mircea_popescu: in this sense, a good iB in back pocket as you say plays the strategic role of "fleet in being", in that it protects the old shit from too violent a crisis.
mircea_popescu: in the sense that the incentives of the vermin are modified by its projection. vermin being definitionally captive subject to incentive potential.
mircea_popescu: (yes asciilifeform, "captive by local minima" is not the definition of adulthood, or of civilisation. it is the definition of rat.)
asciilifeform: flea, not rat
asciilifeform: rats occasionally get on boats.
mircea_popescu: for this reason tho.
mircea_popescu: there's a reason why the sort of guy that can't pass the simplest test of manhood, that pons asinorum known as the prisoner's dilemma is known as a rat.
asciilifeform: ah that rat.
asciilifeform: anyway if you ain't captive your pit aint deep enough, is what i say.
asciilifeform: but we could go on re this forever.
mircea_popescu: anyway, back to the iB : there's a number of very valuable ideas, at least in my eyes, that discussion throughout has brought out. yes the sha thing discussed on trilema ; also - ada, linked into the c, and slowly driving out the c, much in the way the vermin try to drive out say x11 or rsa etc.
mircea_popescu: there's also - a good db. and other things. a list should prolly be made.
mod6: im missing something, what is 'iB'?
asciilifeform: i suppose possibly it might help if i reveal what i had in mind.
mircea_popescu: mod6 "ideal Bitcoin", ie the 2nd thing. i dunno just came up with it
mircea_popescu: for need of a name.
mod6: ah, ok got it.
asciilifeform: i've been playing with a bare-metal (x86) ada build chain.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform to no one's surprise.
asciilifeform: console i/o to serial (emulated, presently)
mircea_popescu: what the fuck else was the incentive there.
asciilifeform: objective is to let go of the whole shitstack.
mircea_popescu: what, whne you were raving about ada the specified, what did you think i read, exactly this, "oh, he hopes and wills to make the whole chain"
asciilifeform: presently i can load/store disk blox.
mircea_popescu: it actually worx ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu always grasps what i mean.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for a very narrow 'worx'
mircea_popescu: only when you mean something smart :D
mircea_popescu: so yeah, ada is certainly a good thing in that pot.
asciilifeform: 512b blox. in, out.
mircea_popescu: with any luck, all the way to verilog.
asciilifeform: next thing will be to port my rtlink nic driver to ada (with minimum of asm)
asciilifeform: then we can actually speak of useful wurk
asciilifeform: the nifty thing is that ada standard specifies own scheduler.
mircea_popescu: of course the less nifty thing is that whether this entire pile actually works or collapses under its own haskellweight is an unknown.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what'd that look like ?
asciilifeform: there isn't, note, a haskellian runtime in the thing
mircea_popescu: i mean something peculiar. not of the thing itself, but of the effect it has on heads.
asciilifeform: it builds to a traditional binary, like any other gcc.
asciilifeform: ah you were thinking of complexity collapse.
mircea_popescu: of that particular kind. yes.
asciilifeform: this will depend on ~people~
mod6: Ok, so i had to re-read all of that so im finally caught up here.. i didn't even consider interleaving ada with C really. i dunno why, i was just thinking it would just be its own separate deal.
mircea_popescu: the haskellweight of a project, how likely it is to suck brains and ideas into a black hole of nock.
mircea_popescu: mod6 that was the major point , that they are miscible. very rarely you get so lucky, that you can add icecream to shit,
mircea_popescu: and then gradually push shit out.
mod6: I suppose that makes sense that parts could be re-written async ... ^ this right.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: considering that ada uses no peculiar ('functional') abstractions, and is pretty much a c with 'bdsm'-restrictive pointer mechanics and hard bounds checking - the nock thing is not in the mix
mod6: sort of like we were talkin about with Scheme, etc.
mod6: ok
mod6 thinks.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i follow the theory of it, or else i'd be covered in liver spots.
mircea_popescu: practice is always its own thing tho. we see.
asciilifeform: the one risk is that folks might get carried away with the 'belts and suspenders' and write some very slow code (where there are type predicated on everything, etc.)
mod6: Then, i think my initial still holds. Short term C releated work, if it can even be done in time. And meanwhile, new icecream replacing dogshit.
mircea_popescu: mod6 you understand what i mean by "fleet in being" ?
mod6: not exactly.
mod6: oooh
mod6: yeah, i read about this before.
mircea_popescu: ok, it's a concept from maritime strategy, that meanwhile took over mainstream. the idea is that if you have one big battleship, and the enemy has three, you are ill advised to go into battle. because if you sink two, and they sink yours
mod6: "In naval warfare, a "fleet in being" is a naval force that extends a controlling influence without ever leaving port."
mircea_popescu: you have created this situation when the enemy has one... relatively infinitely large battleship.
mircea_popescu: instead, you keep your battleship in port. this ties down the enemy, and they can't go about doing their shit normally
mircea_popescu: they have to keep accounting for your potential activities. hence the "in being" part.
mircea_popescu: \this can end up costing, by the end of the war, way the fuck more than their battleships were wortjh in the first place.
mircea_popescu: it's a basic approach to leveraging local superiority into actual total value.
asciilifeform: sorta the 19th c. variant of the specificity-of-diddling thing.
mircea_popescu: pretty much.
mircea_popescu: so in this sense, active development of an iB is actually useful beyond its use.
mircea_popescu: mod6 you follow the logic here ?
mod6: yeah, i think so.
asciilifeform: in the past i referred to such items as 'parachute'
asciilifeform: i keep a number of'em around
asciilifeform: and did not bother to describe all of them here
asciilifeform: (not all are interesting to all folks)
mircea_popescu: mod6 like i pointed out to davout in the middle of that heated discussion re how things work, this is one of those things that deal with the negative of "works"
mod6: So, we build a new battleship, and keep it in port. This will make 'em bleed through the purse.
asciilifeform: my understanding is that this role, to the extent it was filled by anything, was previously filled by mpb.
mircea_popescu: if we are in a position to say "we don't want a fork - but if you do, THIS fork will prevaly, no matter what you do, because it actually is the tech schelling point" then that's the end of that.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform mpb is creaking at the seams.
mircea_popescu: i am not made of infinity.
asciilifeform: i recall this. it is rather like 'cruiser aurora', bottom - is of cement
mircea_popescu: and as the idiots keep investing themselves, no matter how ineptly, they'll eventually build a shitpile large enough, i suspect.
mod6: anyway, this seems to make some stategic sense to me.
mircea_popescu: i guess one good move, and very foundation-like, would be to make lists of what we want, both for cB [cleanning Bitcoin] and iB [ideal Bitcoin]
mircea_popescu: something beyond the very summary skeletons discussed in chat prior and even further summarized above.
asciilifeform: would help also to nail down the exact cryptomechanics of a viable 'iB'
asciilifeform: (rsa? cs?)
mircea_popescu: i don't think there's anything wrong with proper, full rsa (as opposed to the neutered version implemented by pgp)
asciilifeform: there is the one thing.
asciilifeform: (the utter inefficacy of all of the padding schemes, hence cs)
mircea_popescu: i don't know there's a better alternative than cs.
asciilifeform: i personally do not have one.
mircea_popescu: of course, the discussion re cipher composition is herein included by reference.
asciilifeform: so long as diffie-hellman problem stands up, cs stands.
mod6: i hope not, you got paid for cs submission!
mircea_popescu: no he didn't ?
asciilifeform: mod6: i must point out that i was not paid
asciilifeform: because it is not time.
mod6: oh, thought that you got the 10 BTC?
mircea_popescu: eventually, but not jetzt
mod6: oh my bad
asciilifeform: we settled, iirc, that whoever shows up with ~working~ widget, gets the prize.
mod6: Ah
asciilifeform: then i went off into my pit to produce a cstron.
asciilifeform: pit - is deep.
mircea_popescu: anyway, making a list of all the things seems paramount
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> i guess one good move, and very foundation-like, would be to make lists of what we want, both for cB [cleanning Bitcoin] and iB [ideal Bitcoin] << ok so this is a start.
mircea_popescu: impossible to organize activity otherwise ; or for that matter to maintain any semblance of discipline or morale.
mod6: This is something that ben and I can put together.
mircea_popescu: once it gets started it can be snowballed by chan discussion even.
mod6: sure.
BingoBoingo: Iterlude from the mines: "During the 9/11 attacks, more people died than should have because the obese people in the buildings could not move down 20 flights of stairs as fast as needed. FACT. Obese people moving slow (as fast as they can) in a burning building stairwell absolutely can cause people to not make it out alive. This is the most triggering one for me. I'm one of those people who volunteered in my office to help people escape
BingoBoingo: in case of fire, and during the last drill (my building is only four stories for fucks sake) an obese coworker was out of breath and had to stop half-way with a huge line of people behind her - if this was a real emergency, I'm sorry, but I'm gunna gunt punt that woman to ensure everyone can make it out alive." https://archive.is/7ObHD
mod6: I think this is a good stopping point for today probably. Plenty of food for thought. Getting the list together is a small enough chunk to get us started.
mod6: I'll start putting this together, let's check back in on where I'm at say, mid-next week.
mod6: Next friday checkpoint at the latest. Even if it's just a quick update.
mod6: anyway, did anyone else rip off that guys Perl CS implementation from his university paper and get it to work?
mod6: I got it to work, kinda sorta.
mod6: It was abomitable, though.
mod6: I think it would encrypt a string. Then decrypt it, but it wouldn't/couldn't take any different input. haha.
mircea_popescu: my perl is marginal
mod6: played with it for an evening or something. this was like right around the time of the contest.
mod6: not that its useful, just was curious if anyone else saw it
asciilifeform: mod6: i saw it. not particularly useful.
asciilifeform bbl, food
mod6: ya aight.
mod6: mircea_popescu: so they've got a lot of cattle in .ar then?
mod6: I thought you were saying once that it was mostly like soy farming or w/e?
mod6: or how did that go?
mircea_popescu: historically, argentina was built by the prussian market for leather.
mircea_popescu: but these days, they mostly do soy. less skilled labour involved, and they're idiots.
BingoBoingo: Is there actually labor in soy beyond maintaining the machinery? Soy is hella mechanized here.
mircea_popescu: not much, no.
BingoBoingo would not be surprised if there were some soy farmers out there who had not intentionally touched a bean.
mod6: i guess it does seem like maybe the terrain out there would be good for grazing. kinda like the mid-west used to be without the fences. ala kansas, oklahoma, texas circa 1800-1880
mircea_popescu: but you can't ranch without cowboys ; and argentines are truly retarded.
mircea_popescu: as the old guys die, there's no young guys to replace them.
BingoBoingo: So that's where the "Argentine Cows ranch themselves" comes from.
mod6: no cojones?
mircea_popescu: eh, they all wanna be carrie bradshaw. except they don't even put as much effort into it as the average midwestern hayseed chick
mircea_popescu: that at least TRIES to hide her hick accent.
mircea_popescu: mod6 but if you ever wanna retire, could prolly buy a thousand acres in cordoba and get a nice ranch going. possibly for less than what retirement costs in the us.
mod6: now that is a solid idea
mod6: i'd love that shit i bet
mircea_popescu: it's really a very mild, slightly drier arizona
mod6: :]
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 425.0, vol: 3632.36413865 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 420.551, vol: 4578.73019 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 428.4, vol: 5940.73572926 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 426.629766, vol: 26549.68400000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 425.9, vol: 532.21485511 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 427.633725, vol: 46.73936602 | Volume-weighted last average: 426.058602215
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell adlai that inside man crap's unwatchable.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
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