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Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

danielpbarron: << << the most referenced line : asciilifeform commenting on some news story that BingoBoingo wanted to scoop before coindesk, saying that they'd all pretend they scooped it first anyway
danielpbarron: the second most reference line : << Rozal admitting he lied about whatever
danielpbarron: there's a four-way tie for 3rd most referenced log line : ; ; ;
phf: incidentally there's a bug in ref counter, only finds one ref
danielpbarron: yeah i just noticed, it didn't like me referring to multiple lines in the same line
danielpbarron: i suppose that means there may be lines with even greater references
phf: i suppose we'll find out soon enough
danielpbarron: yeah you can probably pop the answer out way faster than the way I just found those
phf: well, so far i've succeeded in breaking annotations
phf: or maybe not
phf: well, something's working anyway
phf: danielpbarron:
danielpbarron: weew, mine were right!
phf: i was frankly surprised you managed to produce them manually
phf: i wonder if assbot quotes should count for annotations though
danielpbarron: yeah, the rozal ones get triggered by the log line being referenced in BingoBoingo's rating on him
BingoBoingo: Which is exactly how a proper public damning should work.
danielpbarron: and by yeah, I mean yeah I had the same thought, that perhaps this is a less legit reference
danielpbarron: heh
phf: aight, check it without bot quotes
phf: rozal now has three BingoBoingo rates and this thread
BingoBoingo: No, you've lessened the damning!
BingoBoingo: << The damnation of the guilty is of severe importance
phf: this also demonstrated for why "top refs" shouldn't remain a feature :p
phf: otherwise can go ascii route and ref the same post over and over again
danielpbarron: no, that's what WoT is for
danielpbarron: same idea with deeds ; could submit same thing over over, but then get neg-rated out of a voice
trinque: makes sense.
davout: <<< answered
davout: ;;later tell hanbot ^
gribble: The operation succeeded.
davout: <<< what i was thinking is "offer wires as an alternative to a cash settlement to people who presently hold x.eur and to whom i've committed to delivering upon request", and then close it, at least until i have another professionnal setup to handle it properly
davout: ;;later tell mircea_popescu ^
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell phf i find myself agreeing with adlai, the way we have it now, the log is in fact near-unreadable EXCEPT in wwwtron. links oughta dump into the chan assbot-style
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: (at least when they are links to the log)
shinohai: <<< Police said mircea_popescu was nowhere to be found.
mircea_popescu: adlai: asciilifeform: would you argue that satoshi should've switched PoW each time a new optimized (ie, gpu, fpga, etc) miner was released, at least, before he sepukkud? <<< whatever he'd argue, it is a fact that YES, satoshi should have been a man rather than an herb, and once he knew things blew up should have called forth the dragon.
mircea_popescu: this, incidentally, is both what distinguishes children from men, and an absolute bar to leadership.
davout: phf: very cool log you made!
mircea_popescu: phf: adlai: i'm half expecting bot to fall over at any second, you want it to spew log lines, you crazy, mang << no, seriously, this is a must. deedbot must say the logline when it sees the reference, there's no way about it, because seeing the line reminds me of the log directly, but clicking links etc is such a high bar...
mircea_popescu: no way around it*
mircea_popescu: "gentleman agreement" for the love of all that's slippery and wet.
mircea_popescu: how about we get a gentleman's agreement to piss on him and his "discovery" - i know a lot more actual gentlemen in banking and finance than in computing.
mircea_popescu: phf: incidentally there's a bug in ref counter, only finds one ref << thanks danielpbarron :D
danielpbarron: yw
mircea_popescu: phf: well, so far i've succeeded in breaking annotations phf: or maybe not phf: well, something's working anyway <<< bwahahaha check out the ada-lisper at work! :D
danielpbarron is currently updating blog posts to reference new log instead of old one
mircea_popescu: what did you do ? update daniel_posts replace(post_content, bitcoin-assets, btcbase) ?
mircea_popescu: << this is a splendidly useful tool, actually!
danielpbarron: nah i'm just doing it manually because it's only a month old ; but it'll be really easy for you to do it that way as the urls are virtually identical
mircea_popescu: i want it to be a flag in the search, so as to search IN IT.
mircea_popescu: (ie, results come out sorted by it)
mircea_popescu: we're actually building a sort of cyber-ai-implant here, it's obvious by now.
mircea_popescu: human memory being obviously the most directly augmentable of all the high cognition functions.
mircea_popescu: << guy reads teh logs.
asciilifeform: << what 'discovery' again ?
mircea_popescu: so iirc the way this was solved before is, phf makes the page TITLE of read "phf: i was frankly surprised you managed to produce them manually" and then trinque makes deedbot fetch the TITLE of all pages and this solves reading loglines into chat.
asciilifeform: aha ^
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you linked to the strippers whatever ?
asciilifeform: waiwut
asciilifeform still snarfing up the logz
mircea_popescu: hmm this is odd, clicking on your link lists as first on my screen
asciilifeform: strippers?
mircea_popescu: phf why isn't linked line first in viewport ?! how am i gonna find what he means ?!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform once it became obvious they can gpu mine. that discovery.
asciilifeform: ah!
phf: mircea_popescu: now that's just crazy talk, the behavior is identical to old log
danielpbarron: mircea_popescu, not enough content below to have the page scroll to the right spot
mircea_popescu: phf i tell you ?! oh oh! i c.
danielpbarron: could pad with whitespace i suppose
mircea_popescu: nah is ok now that i know wtf.
mircea_popescu: btw, could use some links on it.
phf: it could, but i'd rather not have random durps hitting the domain and then hitting the logs until i'm certain of logs
asciilifeform: << it is not clear that fella had unilaterel workfunction-twiddling auctoritas
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the consacrated words being under the dragon. "i see no reason to continue supporting or otherwise encourage X.". with or without the banishment rider.
mircea_popescu: phf word. also, a way to go to arbitrary date should be... oh nm, i can just hack teh url.
mircea_popescu: you'll hafta excuse flurry of nonsense, trying&figuring out new clothes.
phf: nono wait
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what fella what unilateral ?!
phf: so the way it used to address is /?date=06-04-2016, i think that should still happen when you hit /log/
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: satoshi
danielpbarron: mildly annoying that old log url and new log url have date in reverse order, but i guess a script can hack around this trivially
asciilifeform: did anyone actually give half a fuck what he thought ?
mircea_popescu: right ? so if i want feb 2012 i go /?date=01-02-2012
asciilifeform: ( i was not tuned in yet, so i have nfi )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform about as much as mp in #b-a.
phf: right, but that will redirect you to /log/2012-02-01 because i like iso 8601
mircea_popescu: << fanci that ?!
mircea_popescu: hm
phf: right, because endpoint for the log is an iso8601 date
mircea_popescu: ah right, order.
mircea_popescu: but looky, empty pages!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he doubtlessly failed to understand both his capabilities and his responsibilities, until later, as is usually the lot of people.
phf: oh that old old log is not there yet, and will probably go in within a month or so
mircea_popescu: kk
mircea_popescu: lol you readin' it first ? :D
phf: have some people transcribe it
mircea_popescu: not machinable huh.
asciilifeform admits that he misses the old checkerboard patter in the logz
asciilifeform: *pattern
asciilifeform: and the timestapmz
phf: the desire for old styling has been expressed and heard
mircea_popescu: lol this guy
mircea_popescu: $rated phf
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated phf 2 at 3644159832 << Fixed our boxen!
mircea_popescu: $rate phf 3 Teh desire has been expressed and heard!
deedbot: Get your OTP:
mircea_popescu: $v 8C225EF704922ADE60BE99B4CDC7CC85BB04049F87751A9849FFC35C9AFB2522
deedbot: mircea_popescu updated rating of phf from 2 to 3 << Teh desire has been expressed and heard!
mircea_popescu: im curious how phf does in domestic arguments.
mircea_popescu: did a woman you cared about ever manage to get a satisfyingly loud and wet quarrel witcha ?
mircea_popescu: << makes sense. hopefully the holders will be kind enough to get out of their positions amiably.
mircea_popescu: << ahh what a quote.
mircea_popescu: possibly might be an idea to eschew counting references to a log line made by the same author ?
mircea_popescu: let's also put this in teh record "S.MPOE": {"1d": {"avg": "50504.3351821","min": "50143","max": "51211","vsh": "437407","vsa": "22090949739","cnt": "15"}, "7d": {"avg": "49898.0738545","min": "49008","max": "51211","vsh": "1288832","vsa": "64310234322","cnt": "95"}, "30d": {"avg": "49515.8488864","min": "41707","max": "53882","vsh": "22173235","vsa": "1097926553583","cnt": "1517"}}
mircea_popescu: << phf tell you what, ima hold up changing trilema links until you're happy with it then. you say.
phf: that sounds reasonable
phf: the web part is fine, but i want a bit more reliability out of a bot, maybe move it into a separate process even. this whole ascii's "does cmucl even has proper threads" is biting me in the ass
mircea_popescu: heh
mircea_popescu: without importing all the battlefield lulz on the topic : it is rather important for lisp to be used in ACTUAL applications, as opposed to conceptual.
mircea_popescu: this shit is dirty.
mircea_popescu: brits had a very similar problem, "our tank is very well made" "how does it do in the sand ?" "WHAT?!?!?!"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is here committing the 'economics is what i see at the grocery counter' fallacy
mircea_popescu: tell.
asciilifeform: as described in his own article re same!
phf: lisp's attitude to threads for a decade now has been "now let's see how this whole `threading' thing plays out, and maybe come up with a solution in a decade or two"
asciilifeform: phf: sbcl exists.
mircea_popescu: phf fwiw i believe "threads" are a miserable kludge, so i can see the angle.
asciilifeform: even mcl has threads.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no threads, no multicpu
phf: asciilifeform: quiters
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform were you gonna explain how the grocery thing relates ?
mircea_popescu: and srsly, what, it's my job to tell the processor how to process ? that's why it's a processor, let it process!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in that most effective software isn't public.
mircea_popescu: but oh, no, "you gotta make this hacky flagging scheme to show us what to paralellize!"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you'd like ada then
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that is utterly besides the point, isn't it ? most well made statues were kept in temples, in the dark, untouched and unseen. this doesn't mean they had ergonomic spoons in mass production!
asciilifeform: ada tasks, afaik, is the only sane implementation of parallelism where you ~never~ specify explicit thread
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: consider, e.g., naggum's oil/gas exploration proggies
asciilifeform: they were 100% commonlisp (allegro) but never will be published or advertised.
mircea_popescu: consider what i'm actually saying : it's one thing to solve correctly a well defined problem ; it is another thing to solve well a nebulous one.
asciilifeform: they are not part of what folks think of as 'software ecosystem'
mircea_popescu: we'll be doing a lot of the 2nd willy-nilly.
asciilifeform: right
mircea_popescu: and it is good that the good tools, derived from 1st, get some battle experience.
asciilifeform: i can't argue with this.
mircea_popescu: so then why are you :)
asciilifeform: my objection was to 'lisp never tested in Serious Business'
mircea_popescu: I DID SAY!!11!! "without importing" did i ?
mircea_popescu: and yes, the more i hear about ada the more i like it, or properly speaking the more it sounds like right thing.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i wish it weren't the right thing...
asciilifeform: but it is.
PeterL: asciilifeform could you make a "right thing" that is better than ada?
asciilifeform: has, e.g., predicated types. (which means, you can declare a variable, where, say, assigning a prime number to it is an error condition in the runtime. which means, yes, a check on EVERY assignment.)
asciilifeform: PeterL: when? by friday morning before breakfast ??
mircea_popescu: PeterL not in a lifetime.
PeterL: no, just conceivably, as in have you identified places where it could be improved?
mircea_popescu: liek that it's a pretty good q.
asciilifeform: PeterL: understand, ada is necessary because we are stuck with the idiot c machine.
asciilifeform: a properly constructed computer would perform ALL of the same checks, and more, IN HARDWARE
asciilifeform: but we haven't such a thing.
PeterL: aha, so if you ditch c-machine then you could do better?
asciilifeform: PeterL: definitionally
mircea_popescu: different and incomparable.
asciilifeform: ^
mircea_popescu: there's no "better" in that space.
mircea_popescu: also you can't implicitly sort complex numbers.
phf: well, incremental improvement on ada doesn't seem like a particularly interesting problem, thing comes with a lineage, wirth's pascal, modula, oberon; ada fits into that ecosystem, so simply going over wirth's research you can find a lot of existing ideas for ada improvements
asciilifeform: the 'better' is in the sense of 'less screaming idiocy in the mix'
mircea_popescu: if idiocy screamed in the forest where there's no alf the bee-dog to hear it,
mircea_popescu: would the world be better ?
asciilifeform: phf: there are some very obvious warts in the language - e.g., the compiler is one-pass and you end up having to write c-style prototypes for some functions.
asciilifeform: but there is also a STANDARD
asciilifeform: and if you improve the thing, you break it.
asciilifeform: as in common lisp.
phf: but if you start with scheme-81/cadr or greenarrays or whatever, could probably get more interesting results by a margin
mircea_popescu: incidentally, WHY is the compiler single pass ?
asciilifeform: phf: yes, but we haven't the factory.
asciilifeform: what we have is a great many rusty old pentiums.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: why? because it is.
asciilifeform: because it made sense in 1980
asciilifeform: when cpu cycles were precious, and disks - glacially slow.
mircea_popescu: i've been wondering bout this.
mircea_popescu: but might be the lowest fruit.
asciilifeform: incidentally, i recommend the 'random walk' article to anyone with even a passive interest in the subj
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> [...] you can declare a variable, where, say, assigning a prime number to it is an error condition in the runtime. which means, yes, a check on EVERY assignment. <<< now imagine the converse type :D
asciilifeform: at least read the section about pointer leakage prevention
asciilifeform: it is unique, afaik, to ada
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: l0l
mircea_popescu: aha ?
mircea_popescu: but there's a point here. it's not a bounded problem!
mircea_popescu: and yeah, i get the "doc it hurts when i do this" "so don't do it then" thing. but ...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: generally folks will use simple predicates (e.g., 'not equal to 0')
asciilifeform: sorta like c 'assert' but you can attach it to ~anything~
mircea_popescu: hey. is it a thing or is it not a thing! stop giving me jam!
asciilifeform: which ?
mircea_popescu: the predicated types.
mircea_popescu: "all of the same checks, and more, in hardware". what now ? miner core in every cpu, to check for primality ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: basic hygiene.
asciilifeform: as in, arrays live with their bounds
asciilifeform: and ALL accesses are bounds-checked;
mircea_popescu: your idea of basic hygiene differs from the medieval french only in form, not in substance.
mircea_popescu: it's still give or take "what everyone else does".
mircea_popescu: and fwiw most arabs'd be horrified at the notion of not actually washing bunghole after defecation.
asciilifeform: integers are MARKED AS SUCH and tested when arithmetizing;
mircea_popescu: poorest village public toilet still had water implement in working condition.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i did not say that basic hygiene is a ~stopping~ place, but a starting point.
asciilifeform: we don't even HAVE the toilet yet.
mircea_popescu: the problem is that it being unbounded, it can't really be hardware.
asciilifeform: we're still at the shit-where-you-stand level.
asciilifeform: the basics ABSOLUTELY belong in hardware.
mircea_popescu: reasoning past the faith ?
hanbot: davout moar for you.
asciilifeform: there is no excuse for buffer overflows to be a thing.
mircea_popescu: why not ?
asciilifeform: why not shit where you stand?
asciilifeform: in your pants?
asciilifeform: do i have to justify that also ?
mircea_popescu: listen : the EARTH permits you to do so.
mircea_popescu: do you propose "not shit where yo ustand" should be a property of earth and standing ?
mircea_popescu: would you buy pants with buttplug ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is a ludicrous analogy.
asciilifeform: the butt plug has a down side.
mircea_popescu: "as long as these are securely fastened, an absolute guarantee to no pants shitting can be offered by manufacturer". and yes i used such thjings, but for very peculiar purposes.
mircea_popescu: and if it's a shitty analogy blame yourself - you brought it in!
mircea_popescu: ha! what, and hardware has no downside ?!
mircea_popescu: now i understand why you expect the foundries to cost billionz! you're outsourcing!
asciilifeform: sane hardware has no downside other than it not yet existing.
mircea_popescu: ...
asciilifeform: in that respect it has the same downside as eschewing microshit had in 1995.
phf: that's a platonist right there
mircea_popescu: seems altogether easier for you to not shit where you stand than for us to create a new reality.
asciilifeform: not entirely new, examples existed as early as 1969
asciilifeform: (control data corp.'s products)
mircea_popescu: a more general and unrelated problem : why should the specific number of compiler passes be set down in the standard ?
mircea_popescu: i can't write sentences with a count at the end saying how many times you have to read them until you get them.
asciilifeform: 2.
asciilifeform: as for 'why standard' - it affects the semantics.
asciilifeform: ergo a standard is meaningless unless it contains it.
mircea_popescu: wasn't by any means a practical consideration. more of a "thinking about the compiler of the wetware future"
phf: $up a111
deedbot: a111 voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: hola a111
phf: << i also agree, i just politely pointed out that the feature is obviously needed, i just don't trust bot part enough yet to put more functionality on it.
a111: Logged on 2016-04-06 12:30 asciilifeform: ;;later tell phf i find myself agreeing with adlai, the way we have it now, the log is in fact near-unreadable EXCEPT in wwwtron. links oughta dump into the chan assbot-style
mircea_popescu: o check it out , also had a bot.
phf: it's all bots sitting there unvoiced
mircea_popescu: juj
mircea_popescu: (ftn, juj = kik ^2 = lol ^ 4)
asciilifeform: what'd be the complex conjugate of l0l ?
asciilifeform: re earlier thread,
asciilifeform: ^ predicates
mircea_popescu: which reminds me of my indignation in 9th grade. THERE ARE TWO COMPLEX CONJUGATES!!11
phf: $down a111
mircea_popescu: -a+bi / a + bi also!
mircea_popescu: "So we see that the predicate in the subtype Even cannot be a static predicate because the operator mod is not permitted with the current instance. But mod could be used in an inner static expression."
mircea_popescu: eh ffs.
mircea_popescu: even can be static irrespective of fucking mod wtf.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you gotta know what mod means in ada
mircea_popescu: "and, in addition, a call of a Boolean logical operator and, or, xor, not whose operands are such static predicate expressions, and, a static predicate expression in parentheses." << right there. a xor maxint-1 > 0
asciilifeform: it means 'takes up this-many bits REGARDLESS'
mircea_popescu: EVEN is wrongly defined is the point.
asciilifeform: where?
mircea_popescu: im quoting from your link.
trinque: phf: << here's what I beat your example into
trinque: maybe we can collaborate on getting a bot that, y'know, stays connected to an IRC channel
trinque: thing knows how to ghost, has your ping/pong code in it (thanks!)
trinque: and I have no idea if I did terrible things, so say so. I'm just some dude reading books on lisp that washed up on my island
asciilifeform: trinque: neato
trinque: where I (think I'm) headed is the bot being a separate module. code using the bot would pass the appropriate generic function to call for commands into make-bot
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform basically they lazily decided "even" is to be tested by "mod", which is unacceptable if they're going to make mod randomly unavailable ; seeing how there are purely bit-logical ways to test for even-ness.
mircea_popescu: which they don't make similarly unavailable.
phf: trinque: you can forgo the whole nickserv integration by putting password into the irc:connect
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the bitwise thing works. i have nfi why not used in the example.
phf: or better yet add ssl key
asciilifeform: or actually i no
asciilifeform: *do
asciilifeform: say it's an algebraic type (e.g. bignum)
trinque: phf: ah that's simpler
asciilifeform: ada is a civilized lang like commonlisp and there is NOT a presumption that integers are machine words !
mircea_popescu: so you're saying i'm a sinful asm/cobol/c-head ?
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: for shame.
asciilifeform: it is curable tho!
phf: trinque:, (irc:connect :nickname *bot-nick* :server "" :password *bot-ns-password*)
phf: should solve all your service woes
phf: my ping/pong code was not very good. i reworked it yesterday, but haven't yet enabled on this guy, so if he falls over, it'll be quietly, and we'll know by lack of logs :D
trinque: and that'll just boot the previous instance of "deedbot" if I connect that way?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ada is a merciless thing. e.g., you cannot use two types interchangeably even if 'they're the same inside'; can only take pointers of items explicitly declared pointerable-to; by default, pointers only valid in the context where they were taken
mircea_popescu: aha.
phf: that was my impression since that's how my bouncer runs, and the only time i had issues is when my ssl cert silently expired. but come to think of it, i've not tested it
asciilifeform: the basic philosophy is to take the most dangerous knobs and attach broken glass spikes to them
asciilifeform: so programmer only grips it if he ~really~ must
asciilifeform: and feels the pain.
mircea_popescu: sounds a lot like v!
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so how is this wonder of a mod defined so it works on vectors ?
mircea_popescu: more importantly, if there's no assumption of machine register underlying, how exactly is it that they can always xor but only sometimes mod ?
phf: trinque: nope, there's no free lunch. irc force changes the nick, before there's a chance to ghost
mircea_popescu: seems to me xor is just as un-immediately defined on abstract types.
mircea_popescu: phf you can ghost arbitrary nick no matter what you'rte called.
mircea_popescu: then change your name.
phf: mircea_popescu: yeah, but then you have to write that logic into a bot. i was hoping that using login/password just kicks the previous account off
mircea_popescu: ah. yeah you would. i don't think they can maintain ircd loose network and have it do that.
trinque: phf: my bot-check-nick would still work in that case
trinque: can keep that and ditch the nickserv auth
phf: trinque: nah, your nick will autochange before the nickserv authentication. it's entirely broken, basically if you reg a, and a is already logged in, you get changed to a` and nickserv goes "why you giving me password, a` is not registered"
trinque: right, my func is a hook for the welcome message
phf: so the entire nickserv machinery is required
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: these were ~examples~
asciilifeform: not built into the language in any sense
asciilifeform: (examples of type-predicates you ~could~ make)
trinque: phf: seems if my nick is automagically changed, my welcome hook would notice that and do the ghost as written
trinque: I could just move the password and remove the case where my nick hasn't been changed
phf brb
trinque: eh I guess you end up doing both, because then you've still gotta nickserv auth
trinque: this protocol is shit
trinque: asciilifeform: pls halp
trinque: seems the voice model pairs with gossipd rather well, where voicing is a matter of message forwarding rules
asciilifeform: trinque: l0lwut
trinque: if one wanted a #trilema on the thing, that would perhaps be a matter of there being a #trilema node distinguishing official vs heathen chatter by what it bothers to send along to other nodes?
trinque: I could of course send you messages I somehow say are intended for #trilema entirely aside the point of whether the official node bothers with them
trinque: so then in this perhaps broken mental model of what the thing is, the trilema node would change whether it's gossiping about received messages based on wot ratings
asciilifeform: trinque: you are still thinking in the old style
mircea_popescu: trinque> seems the voice model pairs with gossipd rather well, where voicing is a matter of message forwarding rules << it doesn't even pair, it IS it. substance of the universe, not even protocol.
mircea_popescu: and yes, the concept of multiple "channels" is entirely user-powered, you can make lists of the people you listen to any way you want.
davout: deedbot:
trinque: deedbot-
deedbot-: accepted: 1
mircea_popescu: << you don't go //msg NickServ identify p, you go /msg NickServ identify a p and THEN you go release a and then you go ghost a and then you go nick a and you're done.
mircea_popescu: irrespective of any a'.
davout: trinque: danke schön
mircea_popescu: the protocol is not as bad as it is obscure.
mircea_popescu: ahaha bidding on own auction ? i gotta import this in eulora totally.
davout: not like they're my assets
trinque: bid his fee, heh!
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: when's it close, midnight today ?
davout: yeah, unless bidding action happens, in which case auction continues until no bid for one hour
mircea_popescu: still at what, 1% of historical valuation ? 2 ?
mircea_popescu: mebbe there's more interest.
davout: stay tuned!
PeterL: why are people putting bids in the second progress report comments, when the auction is supposed to be held in the comment section of the first progress report?
mircea_popescu: that's a good q.
PeterL: do those bids even count?
mircea_popescu: i can't see how ? prolly should put a notice to bid in the right place ?
PeterL: davout ^
mircea_popescu: in completely unrelated lolz,
mircea_popescu: considering the alternative is reading the logs, 200mn might not even be a bad deal.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: l0l! does that fella also sell own shit ?
asciilifeform: for $trillion / turd ?
mircea_popescu: apaprently he does!
asciilifeform: mega-businessmodel.
mircea_popescu: software expertise, right ?
asciilifeform: aha.
PeterL: how to make a million dollars: sell a million things for a dollar or sell one thing for a million dollars
PeterL: all you need is the one chump who will give you the million
deedbot-: [Daniel P. Barron] Whatever pretense necessary -
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron but are you actually exempt or just claiming ?
danielpbarron shrugs
mircea_popescu: well, poverty is an absolute bar to the workings of law in the us, if you're poor you're priviledged. nevertheless the way this works is that you either say something or go to jail ; and if they decide you didn't say the right thing at some previous point you also go to jail.
mircea_popescu: in particular " Me: He was convicted on fraud charges; not tax avoidance. The prosecution made the case that he knowingly offered false advice in exchange for customer’s money." is a distinction without a difference. writing "extempt" when "you shouldn't have" is exactly what "fraud" means in that context.
danielpbarron: it's my understanding that in order to have 0 withheld, i also have to say exempt
danielpbarron: otherwise they take money out preemptively and I'd need to file to get it back
asciilifeform: if you're poor you're priviledged << waiwut?!
deedbot hands you a broomstick.
PeterL: nah, I did not claim exempt but had no withholdings last year
davout: lol wtf deedbot
PeterL: (but I claime a very high number of dependents)
danielpbarron: so not comparable to my situation..
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if you are poor in the us, the law doesn't (really) apply to you.
mircea_popescu: in most sane places, the way it works is that if you are RICH the law doesn't really apply to you. but in the us - converse.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: only true in the 'blood from a stone' sense
asciilifeform: otherwise entirely on crack
mircea_popescu: and in the beat wife sense and in the won't pay tax/alimony/whatever sense, and in the stalking and raping sense and in all the fucking senses.
mircea_popescu: can go steal from mall sense, what.
davout: PeterL: yes, it's a good point, i'll move my comment and keep an eye open to move those that ended up commenting the wrong post
asciilifeform: if yer poor in usa, merely HAVING TO SHOW UP IN COURT is likely to cost you your job, for instance.
mircea_popescu: job ?
mircea_popescu: gtfo out of here.
asciilifeform: yes?
mircea_popescu: why would poor people have a job. that's the parole officer's problem.
asciilifeform: i'm speaking of poor, not lumpen scum
mircea_popescu: you're speaking of crack :)
shinohai: ;;later tell BingoBoingo I need moar qntra shares to prevent this poor woman from dying of overeat:
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: the crack smokers, as mircea_popescu correctly observes, are more or less invulnerable.
asciilifeform: to anything short of thermonuke.
mircea_popescu: poverty means what it means, not what you dream it to be.
asciilifeform: how is my poverty not a poverty ?
mircea_popescu: the "poor but bright and loyal famr girl" exists in mosfilm propaganda.
PeterL: there is poor, working-class, and rich
PeterL: asciilifeform you are in the working-class
mircea_popescu: PeterL he has a peculiar notion of poor as "under the weather / skilled immigrant / etc"
asciilifeform: no i know about the lumpens.
mircea_popescu: anyway. the way society works is that it's either a crime to be poor ; or else ity's a crime to be rich. alternatives do not exist, it's a strict switch outside of the capacity of convention, like gravity : either motor force or splat.
mircea_popescu: and the us has switched, and that's what it is.
mircea_popescu: we know for a fact it's no crime to be poor, and what follows is that the law doesn't apply to you, just be poor.
asciilifeform: or ' be rat '
mircea_popescu: i'll have to have that rat thing demonstrated, doesn't seem to make much sense theoretically.
asciilifeform: nowhere does law apply to rat.
asciilifeform: rat has no possessions to confiscate, etc
mircea_popescu: all rats have nests.
asciilifeform: how long to set up rat nest ?
mircea_popescu: nfi. bout the same fraction of its life as it takes young male to get his first time house ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: half?!
mircea_popescu: mmmno. you're thinking of a young man that doesn't exist.
mircea_popescu: actual young man goes into unrepayable debt, spends altogether maybe a year or so on the thing ?
mircea_popescu: less, really.
mircea_popescu: cue the canuck "renegotiable 5yr rate on 30 yr mortgages", i nearly fell over when i had that confirmed.
asciilifeform: if rats invent debt...
mircea_popescu: besides the point what non-poor, non-rat poeople invent
mircea_popescu: fact remains the3 biological machine will spend the same time doing the same things
mircea_popescu: just like blocks follow at ~the same intervals,
mircea_popescu: irrespective of what chip manufacturers invent
asciilifeform: lumpen is actually ~below~ rat.
asciilifeform: accumulates nothing.
asciilifeform: doesn't even try.
mircea_popescu: we can agree on this once you give your sorting criteria
asciilifeform: hm?
mircea_popescu: note that philip also accumulated nothing.
asciilifeform: time horizon.
mircea_popescu: a, you got the macedon reference ? good for you!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dunno any other philip
mircea_popescu: jus' halping teh reader along with some crumbs.
asciilifeform: l0l
mircea_popescu: so i'm guessing danielpbarron is getting voted most likely to succeed jail ?
asciilifeform: perhaps we can sit in the same jail
mircea_popescu: afaik that's specifically not how jail works.
danielpbarron: from what I understand, they're supposed to tell me what i'm supposed to have paid, and if i refuse then to pay it -> jail
mircea_popescu: ironically i linked a piece about some other famous tax quarrel guy, who said the same thing (from jail)
mircea_popescu: days ago.
mircea_popescu: of course unlike that guy you don't have either millions in assets nor a wife more than happy to get it all in exchange for paying tax on it
asciilifeform: actually long before jail,
mircea_popescu: course, i suppose a wife could be found for the govt to cut the deal with.
asciilifeform: they confiscate anything you might have
asciilifeform: incl. any wage that is on record
danielpbarron: i wouldn't mind cutting them a check so much if they came and asked for it; I can't stand this whole "you do our work for us" ritual americans do every april
mircea_popescu: lollercopter.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron but if they just asked how would you know it's correct!
danielpbarron: if i think the amount they asked for is incorrect, i'd come up with my own number and challenge it
mircea_popescu: ("you'd have to do it in parallel anyway!" "well if you're doing it anyway, wouldn't it be ~rational~ they don';t do it at all and save the cost ?" << that's the logic.)
asciilifeform: this is not why.
asciilifeform: it is done as DELIBERATE 'let'em trip up and pay fine'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform both colors can be applied, mine's friendlier.
mircea_popescu: gotta appreciate - the us started exactly as a sort of tmsr of rich smugglers in an england province. conceptually it still sees broadly as this "gentleman's agreement" things etc.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: modern usa, taxwise, and in many other respects, is circa 1900 or so.
asciilifeform: the whole crud orchestra - pestilentially high tax, the resulting cancerous bureaucracy, usg as majority economic actor, the lot.
mircea_popescu: i dunno. who in 1900 had a large bureaucracy ? the chinese, and they got raped.
mircea_popescu: the tibetans. also raped.
mircea_popescu: nobody outside of southeast and central asia tho.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ru
mircea_popescu: nah.
mircea_popescu: the tsar's thing was modest.
mircea_popescu: for most of the land barely even had a census mechanism.
mircea_popescu: $up pizzaman1337
deedbot: pizzaman1337 voiced for 30 minutes.
pizzaman1337: mircea_popescu: hey, long time no see.
mircea_popescu: funny, i was thinking the same thing.
pizzaman1337: one day I'm reading bitcoin-assets logs and bitbet is going... somewhere, mpex going private.. what's going on?
mircea_popescu: hey, spring in bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: how's teh fiat world been treatin' ya ?
pizzaman1337: this doesn't seem to positive for bitcoin
pizzaman1337: lousy, like always
davout: best bid now stands at 15 btc
mircea_popescu: o.O
mircea_popescu: who ?
davout: mircea_popescu:
davout: znort987 whoever that is
mircea_popescu: curious what this comes to :D
mircea_popescu: tbh, about as exciting as auctions lol. they always make my sunday.
davout: he's in the mpex apparently
davout: mpex faq*
mircea_popescu: davout yeah, was a guy active in 2011/2012 that then disappeared.
mircea_popescu: reappearances of this kind always suspicious to me, but w/e.
davout: 2011? bleh, noob.
davout: anyway, i'm genuinely curious as to how much bitbet will end up selling for
mircea_popescu: yeah me2.
davout: brb, gonna post my 133.7 btc bid
mircea_popescu: anyway, guy got in faq because iirc he found some typo or something.
davout: :D
davout: which means he *did* read it
mircea_popescu: i don't rightly recall what it was, and i'm not even sure i was yet keeping irc logs at the very early time all this happened.
mircea_popescu: but the way mpoe happened was that basically i threw up the idea in chan and a bunch of the people then-active commented and so on.
davout: at that time i was like "i have nfi what this glbse thing is supposed to do, maybe i should do drugs instead"
davout: nefario asked me if i wanted to write the thing
PeterL: nafario asked me if I wanted to come to some conference to talk about how to use the thing
mircea_popescu: check out the old timer convention.
PeterL: lol
mircea_popescu: but yeah, any indignation at how retarded people are is readily tempered by memory of how fucking insane btcland was five years ago.
davout: i'm pretty sure we'll look back five years from now and witness pretty much the same thing
mircea_popescu: i hope.
mircea_popescu: just as long as it's not "o noes, recall 2016 golden age" we're golden.
davout: this is very true
davout: ;;later tell pete_dushenski you have a point, i did not specify a timezone for "the end of wednesday the 6th of april"
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: you're like totally a noob receiver and everything.
mircea_popescu: should have played moar eulora, you'd know.
davout: shut pup
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al: was there ever a btctronic auction site ?
davout: asciilifeform: there was, a long time ago
asciilifeform: and?
davout: i /think/ it was called bitmit
davout: apperently, according to condesk it got shut down after a 15 btc theft
mircea_popescu: there was an irc channel auction system. it died.
mircea_popescu: im currently trying to get an eulora player to implement proper auctions and reporting, but it's slow going.
mircea_popescu: davout bitmit was some retarded www.
diana_coman: bwahaha, is that any eulora player in particular?
mircea_popescu: lobbes, recall ?
mircea_popescu: we had this convo a few weeks ago.
mircea_popescu: << guy who did the #eulora logger / link reader / rss thing.
phf: auction seems like a slow day feature for deedbot
mircea_popescu: eh, let him do wallets.
davout: phf: requires voice, gpg etc. might not always be desired
davout: mircea_popescu: why would one desire such an abomination?
diana_coman: ah, you mean auctions and reporting in chan, I was thinking in game stuff
mircea_popescu: i'd much rather have some separation between things.
mircea_popescu: davout what abomination ?
mircea_popescu: diana_coman well in game-stuff i ideally want to change the chat to irc, but hey.
davout: deedbot acting like a wallet
mircea_popescu: so i can $pay etc.
davout: like a changetip inside deedbot?
mircea_popescu: quite.
davout: might as well use changetip
mircea_popescu: go through the logs, the thing is specced in the prev discussion with trinque.
mircea_popescu: no, might NOT as well.
mircea_popescu: for one thing, those people are schmucks. but even if they weren't schmucks, not in wot.
mircea_popescu: someone pretending to do dev work and not being in wot is ipso facto saying "i am a fraudster trying to sell my shit as software".
asciilifeform: ^
davout: re a better specified auction deadline, i think it's best to precise it to "the end of wednesday the 6th of april, in whatever timezone this event happens last"
mircea_popescu: diana_coman maybe by the time that's on the plate, we actually change in-game chat to gossipd.
mircea_popescu: that'll be a sight.
davout: aka end of wed 6th of april GMT-12
mircea_popescu: davout it's certainly a softfork :)
asciilifeform: but why the fuck would you put a wallet in deedbot?!
mircea_popescu: ie, doesn't break what you said prior.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so i can $pay.
davout: hehe, precisely a soft-fork indeed
asciilifeform: WHY
mircea_popescu: so...i...can...$pay!!1
davout: so noon GMT on thursday it shall be
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you mean so that trinque has to build a castle around the server ?
davout: asciilifeform: no you don't it, so we can tip each other!!1
davout: don't get*
phf: davout: easiest option is to always put an iso8601 timestamp on things, 2016-04-06T23:59:00Z or somesuch
asciilifeform: wat
davout: phf: indeed
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, i mean so that trinque gets experience with castles, sure.
mircea_popescu: and don't fucking start with the dc current scandal all over again!
asciilifeform: l0l!
mircea_popescu: yea ? what!
mircea_popescu: how the fuck are you going to introduce payment for, eg, deeds ? and if you do, how is it going to beat $pay deed.
mircea_popescu: let it be, it's good.
asciilifeform: << re earlier
asciilifeform: 'prime number type'
mircea_popescu: loller!
mircea_popescu: come to think about it
mircea_popescu: $rated lobbes
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated lobbes 2 at 3632157688 << #eulora logs bot
mircea_popescu: a ok.
asciilifeform: << also of interest
mats: thanks for operating mpex
asciilifeform: re last 2 paras
mircea_popescu: cheers.
asciilifeform: 'As a software safety engineer I find the implementation-defined aspects of C++ bit-fields to be very unsettling. A project may verify that its C++ bit-fields work as intended on a particular architecture, but when a technology refresh is performed in several years, there is no assurance that the C++ program will continue to work properly on the new hardware. The failure of the C++ program to run on
asciilifeform: the new hardware will be received as a complete surprise by most users of the upgraded system and by their management. The surprise may be accompanied by hazardous events because of incorrect control of a safety critical system. People may be injured or die, the environment may be seriously damaged, and very expensive systems may be damaged or destroyed. The root cause of the hazards will not be po
deedbot hands you a broomstick.
asciilifeform: or functional requirements, poor design, or programming mistakes. The root cause of the hazards will be exposure of implementation-defined behaviors in a programming language. Who will the lawyers sue over the consequences of those hazards?'
mircea_popescu: heh.
mircea_popescu: whoever ok'd using c++ i guess.
mircea_popescu: the thing clearly says "no guarantee not even for fitness to a particular purpose". if you use such items in your "safety engineering" you're liable.
mircea_popescu: i don't see hospitals using bags of "saline" that come with a "warning : not suitable for use" on them.
mircea_popescu: "o noes, who will we sue when they turn out to be full of piss!"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in usa software cos were EXEMPTED from liability suits
mircea_popescu: yawell.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can you explain the concept of "contiguity" as seen in this ada spec discussion ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: hm?
mats: i initially started with ~15btc in my coinbr piggy a little more than two years ago, deposited another 15 a year later. today, i'm walking away with 60btc in profit and a 30btc stake in s.nsa
mircea_popescu: "While range specifications are very useful, they are also highly limited in their usefulness. Ada ranges must always be contiguous. This means that you cannot specify an integer data type of only even numbers, for instance. Even numbers are not contiguous."
mircea_popescu: mats pretty cool!
mats: thanks for all the fish
mircea_popescu: how are even numbers any less "contiguous" than say natural numbers ffs.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it means you ought to be able to get successor by + and predecessor by -.
phf: asciilifeform: i somehow hosed my gentoo install, everything's giving me ' no such file' :o
trinque: << the thing can work without a hot wallet at all, provided there's a reasonable duration to accomodate cashing out.
asciilifeform: phf:
davout: trinque: a hot wallet is absolute heresy
deedbot-: [] BitBet auction deadline postponed (slightly) -
trinque: davout: yup.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: also interesting,
phf: danke schön
trinque: davout: no way in hell I'd run such a thing without it involving the airgap dance.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i thought "mod is not defined because bignum"
mircea_popescu: then we discover that > is nevertheless defined, in spite of EXACT EQUIV OF MOD
mircea_popescu: and now it turns out that + and - are in the same exact situation.
mircea_popescu: 1) how do you get "next" vector with + ?
mircea_popescu: 2) why the fuck exactly do you think you can get 3 as 2+1 in "natural" space but you don't see that you get 4 as 2+1 in "even natural" space ?
mircea_popescu: even numbers and natural numbers are EXACTLY as anything as the other one.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i didn't build the thing!1111
mircea_popescu: ima write a trilema piece about this today.
asciilifeform: read 'rationale' 1st ?
mircea_popescu: yeah and other things.
mircea_popescu: will be more of a "inquiring" piece than anything,
mircea_popescu: i'm not preparing to damn ada by any means.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it has sharp edges but afaik it is the best we have short of massive-runtime-turd abominations like haskell.
phf: mircea_popescu: i think it's because whole thing is various degrees of successful abstraction on top of von neumann machine
phf: fixed width natural numbers are implemented at bedrock, so in order to support anything else you have to create an abstraction, keep it consistent with the rest of language features, etc. so you either get overspecialized languages like apl (with their runtime costs) or monsters like haskell
phf: lisp's answer is given von neumann what's most flexible model, ada's answer is given von neumann how do we put enough constraints that there are runtime reliability guarantees
BingoBoingo: << Aha, like someone giving you a wedie while you wear buttplug attached pants
asciilifeform: phf nailed it.
ben_vulpes: what was it, max dynamicism vs max strictness
phf: haskell's answer was to pretend like von neumann machine doesn't exist, a goal at which it failed in various interesting ways
phf: like the attempts to teach type system about integer overfloats
phf: err, overflows, though float errors are another one
jurov: ada alone won't deliver us from this
jurov: "In my experience, software bloat almost always comes from smart, often the smartest, devs who are technically the most competent. Couple their abilities with a few narrowly interpreted constraints, a well-intentioned effort to save the day.."
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 406084 | Current Difficulty: 1.668515132827772E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 407231 | Next Difficulty In: 1147 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 6 hours, 13 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
BingoBoingo: myspace was a knockoff
asciilifeform: jurov: monstrous idiocy
asciilifeform: the solution to 'clever trick makers' is to kick in their teeth
asciilifeform: and if they aren't in range - negrate.
jurov: asciilifeform: ver well, so if you were tasked to do that "family" function you'd started to kick out teeth around?
gernika: If asciilifeform ever accidentally ends up at the same hotel as a rails convention, I expect to see a lot of shattered teeth on the floor.
BingoBoingo: $b 5
deedbot: $b 5 is not a command.
asciilifeform: i don't give half a shit re what sewer rats do, for so long as it isn't done in my house or where i have to see it.
asciilifeform: i don't work with, e.g., ruby, or with people who do.
asciilifeform: period.
mod6: hey, im just posting this here so we don't lost it -- this is from funk_ iirc, he never sent it to the list -- i'm told that it "works" but have never tested it myself:
mod6: s/lost/lose/
ben_vulpes: heh heh heh heh
mod6: :D
mod6: what up ben
ben_vulpes: dope
mod6: cool.
ben_vulpes: i've been wondering where that patch got off to
mod6: werd to that
mod6: im tinkering around with lexical parsing with scheme for a sec here.
ben_vulpes: going up to clojure/west to acquire a few more problems
mod6: been trying to plow through sicp and that compiler book. and ada.
mod6: dang huh
ben_vulpes: mhm
ben_vulpes: trains, bikes, conferences, may even have some sort of conversation piece done at that point
ben_vulpes: keep running into the most inane shit getting it running tho
mod6: i've never fucked with clojure
asciilifeform: mod6: some years ago, i attended a few meetings of a local clojurist society. ended up barfing and writing article, (and sequel, ) that ~still~ get flamez, and - until recently - were among the top google results for subj...
mod6: heheh. nice.
mod6: what is the black magic behind the scenes? is it not based upon a lambda calc?
asciilifeform: mod6: clojure compiles to jvm
asciilifeform: mod6: similar to the old 'armed bear common lisp', except that it was written by a 'clever tricks' crackpot who added in ten truckloads of homegrown ustard idiocy
asciilifeform: e.g., 'let's use square brackets for certain lists'
asciilifeform: 'let's immutable-data'
asciilifeform: etc.
asciilifeform: this gave it a 'functional!111' and exotic flair and attracted hipster types
asciilifeform: (same folks as do haskell, but an iq std. dev. more junior)
phf: hicky is intentionally josling, i.e. designing language with mass appeal, knowing full well what he's doing
asciilifeform: not only this, but 'omfg11111! i can sell lisp to the boss at the cube farm now, it will build to jvm, can mingle with java codez!11'
mod6: ugh. so wait, instead of a general lisp interpeter its compiled into jvm byte code? what abortion is this?
phf: well, that
mod6: why would anyone do this?!
asciilifeform: mod6: imho i described above, why.
asciilifeform: but feel free to ask the aficionados.
asciilifeform: or read the comments to my 2 articles
asciilifeform: where they spew.
mod6: immutable data and square brackets?!
phf: mod6: lisp is not always (and not usually) interpreted, i don't think there's anything wrong with targeting jvm, except for the fact that jvm itself is not good
mod6: tinyscheme is an interpreter no?
asciilifeform: jvm, for instance, does not support the sane error handling common lisp users are accustomed to.
asciilifeform: instead you get stack trace barf.
mod6: or are other common lisps actually compiled?
asciilifeform: mod6: scheme is commonly interpreted.
mod6: huh
asciilifeform: mod6: modern common lisps typically include a compiler.
mod6: oh didnt know
asciilifeform: (it operates in what modern folk might call 'just in time' mode.)
mod6: ahk
asciilifeform: the operation of the compiler in common lisp is generally semantically transparent.
mod6: i've only used one clojure application and it was a very haphazardly implemented docker-like thingy.
mod6: actually, we tore our hair out
phf: actually there aren't many schemes that are interpreted, it's much more in vogue to compile them, since that's an easy thing to do
asciilifeform: phf: bytecode-compile
phf: unless we're talking compsci 101 scheme
asciilifeform: but in some perverse cases (e.g., 'chicken') compiled to c, but then you lose eval
asciilifeform: and it is not really a scheme any more.
mod6: i think this program was called 'uplift' or something - it guys employeed it to build vms quickly or w/e
phf: why perverse? it's pretty standard for scheme to be compiled to C, it's a classical cps technique, sort of a couple of next chapters away from how tinyscheme is a classical interpreter
asciilifeform: no eval -> not scheme.
asciilifeform: i regard it as false advertising.
phf: that's silly
asciilifeform: you typically don't get call/cc either
asciilifeform: which makes it definitely more of a 'el cheapo undergrad lisp' than a scheme.
phf: if you're buying your schemes from supermarket, sure, but my point is that technique is available as part of the dictionary. can do a hybrid from there, i.e. compiled subtrate
phf: scheme48 does it that way, for example, with pre-scheme
asciilifeform: i am aware.
asciilifeform: eval-less lisp is a sterile thing, like a bullock or capon.
asciilifeform: in some cases one wants this.
asciilifeform: but the result is no longer lisp, as seen from the business end.
mod6: "Your last post shows how little you know about Clojure.
mod6: It’s dynamic, we rarely restart a JVM when coding/testing."
asciilifeform: enjoy mod6
asciilifeform: that thing is still bringing in idiots, like flypaper, ~7 years (!) later.
mod6: "Wow. This is absolutely hysterical. Sorry dude, Clojure won. Get over it."
asciilifeform: i personally don't give half a fuck re folks wanting to use bizarre shitlang with square brackets etc.
mod6: yeah dude, clojure won. so go fuck yourself.
asciilifeform: the galling thing is the fraudulent advertising, 'this is lisp'
phf: well, i think anything short of common lisp is not really a lisp :P (i.e. reader macros, restarts, pervasive defvar/defparameter clarity, well thought out function library, and such)
mod6: bro, if java were a pile of garbage why would a genius like Ellison and oracle still push it?
asciilifeform: why, i wonder, not go whole hog and go microshit.
mod6: kekekek
asciilifeform: per same argument.
mod6: these guys are crazy. i have to bite holes in my tounge every day.
mod6: "java has lambdas!!!!!1"
asciilifeform: even microshit, at this point, has some faux lambda thing.
phf: it's not really a secret why java, every time someone like alf starts talking about cogs in the machine the inevitable answer is "duh", that was the whole point, josling says as much in his early interviews, including the famous "at least we got them to grok gc"
asciilifeform: just as i was just now walking past a lot full of american shitcarz, and finally realized why 'mustang' has plastic grille over the rear window.
asciilifeform: (it is, i think, imitating the rear engine block of 12 cyl 'ferrari' with its air cooled motor)
mod6: im at the point of paranoia enough where if we can not write out our program mathemtically, mechanically, then there is some magic going on in there. and that freaks me out.
asciilifeform: i bet pete_dushenski had this thought
mod6: i think for me, this is the allure of something like lambda calc.
asciilifeform: phf: gosling
asciilifeform: ?
phf: yah
asciilifeform: mod6: mr mold went and tried to derive a programming system from ski calc (isomorphic to lambda calc) and ended up with 'nock' and the rest.
asciilifeform: mod6: << my version
asciilifeform: imho his design sucks ballz
asciilifeform: but the whole story is in the logz.
phf: also mccarthy said a few times that lisp has not much to do with lambda calculus, he just completely misunderstood the papers (or rather was inspired by them)
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: lambda calc does not comport with physical machines well.
asciilifeform: (it requires, at least in its known restatements, entities to appear and disappear in ways no physical object behaves in)
mod6: thx for the link
asciilifeform: mod6: the denoument of the story,
asciilifeform: in case you missed. (it was long ago)
mod6: putting everything aside, really, I want a machine that will do stuff that is deterministic, mathematically provable.
asciilifeform: the unfortunate thing is that there is not much that is mathematically provable in the general case about a program.
asciilifeform: (virtually any attempt reduces to the halting problem)
mod6: is this like common knowledge that I missed by not attending a college?
asciilifeform: << fortunately no need to blow yearz and megabux
asciilifeform: (turing's halting theorem is really a generalization of godel's incompleteness t.)
mod6: oh yeah, halting prob, ofc.
mod6: is this also related to church-turing's paper surrounding the entscheidungsproblem?
phf: mod6: it's not clear at this point which school will bring sufficient clarity to this kinds of questions, without paying much more attention to current industry fads. see the thread about mit and sicp. they might mention halting problem in one class, and then go talking about proofs in Cog (if you're lucky or unlucky depending on how you look at it) in the next, with no explicit connection between the two
mod6: hmm
asciilifeform: phf: if the halting theorem were actually taught as serious business, the coq-suckers would eventually have to fellate their pistols.
asciilifeform: (for n00bz: it ~is~ called 'coq', i shit thee not)
asciilifeform: ;;google coq
gribble: Welcome! | The Coq Proof Assistant: <>; What is Coq? | The Coq Proof Assistant: <>; A tutorial by Mike Nahas | The Coq Proof Assistant - Inria: <>
asciilifeform: it.
phf: i basically give up on puttin right letters in words
asciilifeform: briefly back to clojure lulz thread, i have yet to run into a single clojure user who ever heard of armed bear common lisp
asciilifeform: they have the classical ustard affliction of 'we are the greatest people, we are the greatest empire, nothing like us ever was'
asciilifeform: especially on this laughably short time scale, it is fall-off-yer-chair hilarious
phf: to be abcl would've benefited greatly from making their java ffi as nice as the one in clojure. that is of course a marketing problem, and that's something hicky thought about very carefully
phf: *to be fair
asciilifeform: aha. and joseph smith thought about marketing very carefully, really beat the shit off the other zombie cults of his time and prior
asciilifeform: him and, 100 y later, l. r. hubbard
asciilifeform: also genius of marketing.
asciilifeform: and a quintessential american.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> (it is, i think, imitating the rear engine block of 12 cyl 'ferrari' with its air cooled motor) << it is
asciilifeform: the java and c-sharp lambdas are precisely this plastic grille.
phf: hmm, i thought c-sharp has a "real" lambda?
mod6: haha
phf: pretty sure it captures, and you can mutate environment from inside of it
asciilifeform: if it isn't first-class-data (i.e. a closure) it isn't a proper lambda.
asciilifeform: but i have nfi, never microshat in csharp
phf: c-sharp lambda is definitely first class, i'm trying to remember if it has weird restrictions like the python one
asciilifeform: the py one is a sad, sad joke
asciilifeform: also mustang grille.
phf: well, even named closures are broken, like in java you can't mutate outside state
phf: but to your genuis of marketing point, not having even a decenarian math within flying distance, i don't really see a way out of that one. guys design their systems for the masses, say as much in public, and yet somehow there's wide adoption, because one has to eat
asciilifeform: i eat without committing public atrocities
asciilifeform: and so can others.
asciilifeform: likewise, there is also wide adoption of britney spears, and oprah.
asciilifeform: neither is of any intellectual significance to folks with so much as half a squirrel's brain.
asciilifeform: nor is involvement with them in any sense obligatory.
asciilifeform: even here in the heart of the idiot reich.
asciilifeform: i am still waiting for the gasenwagen to come on account of my never having seen oprah.
phf: and yet she exists within your mind as a placeholder for unwashed masses entertainment, if only we had tlp to write something about that
asciilifeform: i actually had to stop and think, to pluck the name out of my nether brain.
asciilifeform: spears is the one that stands for unwashed entertainment
asciilifeform: o stands for something else, 'intellectual' wankery of the squirrel-brained
asciilifeform: perhaps wrong character ?
asciilifeform: let's see if mircea_popescu coughs up a better example when he wakes up.
phf: i think that would be npr
phf: and perhaps new yorker?
asciilifeform: these, iirc, are for the capons, o. for the hens.
asciilifeform: but overall the question calls for an expert entomologist and i am grossly underequipped.
asciilifeform brb
phf: fwiw my first exposure to clojure was a clojure job in finance industry, i did a couple of talks on common lisp within airshot of the hiring person from the team, that was way before 1.0, and we must've been one of the first corporations to use clojure, because hicky made a point of coming to a local tech conference and speaking, i've had beer with him a few times
phf: that was also my first and last "corporate" job, which was interesting, i quit on the first day after coming back from burning man that same year. good times.
phf: we had a sort of ritual there, we'd go to a whisky bar for lunch and try their top shelf, the goal was to see how sloshed you can get for after-lunch-standup without mgmt calling you out
BingoBoingo: So, basically this job was like grad school, but with colleagues and paychecks that could support not borrowing to get sloshed?
phf: right
BingoBoingo: I bet the people around you were somehow more insufferable though.
phf: then grads? probably, i mean it's twenty year olds making six figures to do fuck all in clojure
BingoBoingo: yeah, gotta be worse
phf: that's my impression of american "lucrative" corporate jobs though, because people that i know from that place went on to very similar places, and that's what they do. code as part of special clojure team in a company that's all java, or code in f# for a special f# team in a company that's all .NET. they get drunk during lunch, shit faced on fridays
phf: go to tapas bars or whereverfuck
mircea_popescu waves at logsd
mircea_popescu: << this sounds good in theory, and is doubtless the case in many other places.
mircea_popescu: doesn't work for the even discussion tho.
mircea_popescu: that's just shitty spec/compiler and no more.
mircea_popescu: << i think he's exactly right.
mircea_popescu: ;;ud josling
gribble: | Being touched and/or blessed by Bannan: "Bannanized". Refrence back to the definition for examples on how to use the word "Bannan." by Michael Josling July  ...
phf: you boys wanna go josling
phf: it's this guy
mircea_popescu: so what is it ?
mircea_popescu: << doh!
mircea_popescu: << more like "well chosen college afterparties", at best.
mircea_popescu: << this is generally pretty funny, and more us-specific than anything. doing the nth reimplementation of thing X, never heard of n-1th and take offensew with a complete statement of X.
asciilifeform: see l0gz!
mircea_popescu: "3d cinema" for instance has "happened" about every 3rd decade since last century.
mircea_popescu: it's not even specifically highly complex, intellectually-intensive things. fad diets consist of reruns.
asciilifeform: for 'man' with the long-term memory of a fish, what else is life if not a series of 'reruns'.
mircea_popescu: i don't think this is a man problem. imo this is a family problem.
mircea_popescu: they decided to live separated by age groups ; unlike saner people in europe and arab world, they don't coerce young women into fucking old men
mircea_popescu: as a result...
mircea_popescu: lalaland.
phf: mircea_popescu: gosling, the guy who designed java, is notable for recognizing the right thing, but intentionally committing an atrocity of java as a language for the corporate programming. in one of his interviews he says something along the lines of "at least we got ~them~ to use a garbage collector". before java gc was an explicitly lisp thing, which is also gosling's pedigree
mircea_popescu: ah ah.
mircea_popescu: somehow josling kept parsing as the name of an activity.
mircea_popescu: like hogging.
asciilifeform: earlier g was famous for a mutilated version of emacs.
asciilifeform: and yes, quite like hogging.
mircea_popescu: o you know what that is ?!
asciilifeform: as i understand that was phf's usage.
mircea_popescu: i thought it went out of style with the 50s household
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha! BingoBoingo explained it!11
mircea_popescu: oh
asciilifeform: the art of fucking hogs ?
phf: asciilifeform: i thought current emacs is gosling emacs derivative?
phf: asciilifeform: that's too witty for me, i'm just typing all over the place
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, it's a special party where everyone invites ugly chicks pretending they're pretty.
mircea_popescu: then there's a denouement.
asciilifeform: ah that
asciilifeform had nfi this existed outside of fiction
mircea_popescu: it was the last cork keeping the derpy femitards in check, really.
phf: carrie ruined it for everybody
mircea_popescu: once that was out, horseface exploded with her pretenses of being interesting and a writer like a sunned carcass.
mircea_popescu: phf that's her isn't it ? the woman with a horse face ? carrie something ?
asciilifeform: phf: possibly,
mircea_popescu: << this is not really warranted .oprah originally had a book club for blacks.
mircea_popescu: not terrible.
mircea_popescu: certainly no britni.
phf: aah
asciilifeform: << rms re gosling.
asciilifeform: 'In the summer of that year, about two years ago now, a friend of mine told me that because of his work in early development of Gosling Emacs, he had permission from Gosling in a message he had been sent to distribute his version of that. Gosling originally had set up his Emacs and distributed it free and gotten many people to help develop it, under the expectation based on Gosling's own words in his own manual that he was going to f
asciilifeform: ollow the same spirit that I started with the original Emacs. Then he stabbed everyone in the back by putting copyrights on it, making people promise not to redistribute it and then selling it to a software-house. My later dealings with him personally showed that he was every bit as cowardly and despicable as you would expect from that history.'
phf: mircea_popescu: i'm thinking the 1970 something movie
phf: unless it's a sarah jessica parker joke that i'm somehow missing
mircea_popescu: having meanwhile googled the abomination, i can confirm it is sarah jessica parker
mircea_popescu: and the role was carrie bradshaw
phf: aah master entomologist
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Did you just google the string "horseface"
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo horseface whatshername
mircea_popescu: it's on trilema.
mircea_popescu: ;;google horseface whatshername
gribble: "You're the guy who wasn't good enough to sling dope." on Trilema ...: <>; Maxwell House Tomatoes - Food Gardening part 3 - YouTube: <>; 10 Gorgeous Hollywood Actresses Who are Actually Moms! – All ...: < (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: there we go.
ben_vulpes: << that someone would use clojure for any kind of scripting activity is hilarious, as startup time measures in integer seconds
ben_vulpes: << this is patently false
mircea_popescu: so thinking about it, phf really deflated my article. fact remains : cpu is cpu, it will do what it will do. whatever the fuck you call what it does, it's what it does. yes ada is well mistaken to speak wrong mathematics, but then again it's not a mathematics shop. you want to use your lengthier, thicker and more nodular math cock to mock the poor engineers, go ahead, but the fuck it does.
mircea_popescu: a well.
mircea_popescu: $up deedbot-
deedbot: deedbot- voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: see thread. the haskell folks went entirely with 'fuck the cpu, we'll plug our ears and eyes'
mircea_popescu: yeah.\
mircea_popescu: btw, you quoted the wrong rms bit
mircea_popescu: In the years that followed I was inspired by that ideas, and many times I would climb over ceilings or underneath floors to unlock rooms that had machines in them that people needed to use, and I would usually leave behind a note explaining to the people that they shouldn't be so selfish as to lock the door. The people who locked the door were basically considering only themselves. They had a reason of course, there was somet
mircea_popescu: hing they thought might get stolen and they wanted to lock it up, but they didn't care about the other people they were affecting by locking up other things in the same room. Almost every time this happened, once I brought it to their attention, that it was not up to them alone whether that room should be locked, they were able to find a compromise solution: some other place to put the things they were worried about, a desk t
mircea_popescu: hey could lock, another little room. But the point is that people usually don't bother to think about that. They have the idea: “This room is Mine, I can lock it, to hell with everyone else”, and that is exactly the spirit that we must teach them not to have.
mircea_popescu: rms is the true enemy of the republic. he's the mr brian, if you will.
mircea_popescu: no dickless washington bureaucrat is or could ever be as bad as this abominable imbecile.
asciilifeform: rms lived whole life in motherfucking research institutes
mircea_popescu: so ?
asciilifeform: the terminals 'selfishly locked' belonged to the kolhoz.
asciilifeform: different planet.
mircea_popescu: "that is exactly the spirit that we must teach them not to have." <<< mno, pure evil.
mircea_popescu: rms is exactly what we must teach kids not to be.
asciilifeform: rms was the only effective antidote to microshit.
asciilifeform: you might not want antimatter in your refrigerator, but it has its uses.
mircea_popescu: da fuck i care.
mircea_popescu: antidote my ass.
mircea_popescu: linux is still nowhere, and microsoft is still derping. he was no antidote. not anymore than mr. brian was antidote to 1984.
mircea_popescu: he was just soporific.
asciilifeform: linux is the only reason we have anything to converse about.
mircea_popescu: we could just as well have conversed about the pike carrying gate's head.
asciilifeform: still waiting' for this pike
mircea_popescu: and for as long as there's a rms to fuck up things, we'll be waiting.
asciilifeform: kindly illustrate this one
mircea_popescu: in any conflict, there's moderate positions, and then there's extreme positions. if the moderate position is represented (such as here by rms), the problem is papered over, and things continue until we fall over.
mircea_popescu: the correct solution generally is to strangle the moderates.
asciilifeform: rms is moderate ?!
mircea_popescu: yes.
asciilifeform: i tell ya, i dun see it
mircea_popescu: the soul of moderation. yes, very fucking good at marketing his supposed extremism
mircea_popescu: and yet, "that is exactly the spirit that we must teach them not to have."
mircea_popescu: he is EXACTLY of the same mind as bill gates.
asciilifeform: when palladium was but a mere microshit patent, entirely theoretical, rms was the ~only~ one to publicly ring the alarm bells.
mircea_popescu: they both want : no ownership.
asciilifeform: to much ridicule, recall.
mircea_popescu: so ?
mircea_popescu: wait, i'm supposed to get excited about the campbell can of soup on the left because it is blue ?
asciilifeform: and he took a principled stand against every major technoscumbag to date.
mircea_popescu: each and every time at issue was something irrelevant, he took a principled stand.
mircea_popescu: but when it came to individual versus group, he took the usg stand. also every time.
asciilifeform: example?
mircea_popescu: "that is exactly the spirit that we must teach them not to have."
mircea_popescu: fuckall. that is EXACTLY the spirit they MUST HAVE.
asciilifeform: the really tragic bit re rms is that he became a shadow of a man after getting his mcarthur prize. ended up hiring programmers (!) and turning into a bureaucrat.
asciilifeform: an intellectual ~0.
asciilifeform: ~all of his actual lasting work (gcc) happened prior.
mircea_popescu: i can't see him as anything more or anything else than a decoy.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu often says 'i don't deal in counterfactuals', and the principle seems quite in place here - it is not clear to me that a gcc-less 1980s would have led to anything other than a wintel os+compiler monopoly
asciilifeform: (if you think os+hardware is dire...)
mircea_popescu: and it is not clear to you that a brian-less 1984 would have lead to anything less than a complete domination right ? after all, at least he gave winston the book, right ?
mircea_popescu: ffs.
asciilifeform: draw, for my education, a 'genuine article rms'
mircea_popescu: are you familiar with how "animal rights" moved from a laughable nothing to a point of policy ?
asciilifeform: not very
mircea_popescu: outright terorism. genuine article rms would have firebombed microsoft offices
mircea_popescu: every week.
mircea_popescu: "you work for microsoft, you get raped in the parking lot and left to bleed"
asciilifeform: this didn't work so well for the fetus-rights folks
mircea_popescu: so ?
asciilifeform: just led to armed guards.
asciilifeform: as, incidentally, with the fucking rats
asciilifeform: we had machine-gunners at nih animal facility.
mircea_popescu: derp-ass FOSS certainly didn't work for anybody.
mircea_popescu: but go buy your girl a fur.
asciilifeform: available by the megatonne.
asciilifeform: just as meat in restaurant.
mircea_popescu: ~see what she says~
asciilifeform: she says 'whatever'
mircea_popescu: darn!
mircea_popescu: anyway. the more rms i read the less i like him. the more i think about rms, the less i like him.
asciilifeform: rms was not built to be liked.
mircea_popescu: that has exactly nothing to do. i don't like in that way.
asciilifeform: and ftr i don't much care why he did what he did, terry davis wrote quasi-sane os because the devil personally ordered him to in his sleep
asciilifeform: see what diff it makes.
asciilifeform: i can certainly see that rms was ~ineffective~ post-1993 or so
asciilifeform: would have to be blind, not to see this
asciilifeform: but different question.
mircea_popescu: i am not discussing that he was ineffective, ie, an engineering question. i am discussing that he is evil, ie, an ethical question.
mircea_popescu: under a thin veneer of bullshit he hides all the socialism you could possibly wish for.
asciilifeform: fella was redder than lenin, this was never mega-secret
mircea_popescu: well so i dun like him.
asciilifeform: fair.
asciilifeform: i just happen to see lenin as a necessary forest fire, so that idiot dynasty could properly die
asciilifeform: ditto rms.
mircea_popescu: perhaps. now the counterfactuals clause is certainly kicking in
asciilifeform: idiot entrenched dynasties spawn lenins.
phf: (logging bot croaked in case people wondering why no updates, will fix in a bit)
asciilifeform: as surely as usg letting tinder dry spawns forest fires.
mircea_popescu: omaigerd phf losing lines is v bad.
ben_vulpes: php bot never wronged me like this
phf: there's always backup, so lines are not lost, but everyone is inconvened
phf: hence me talking about "bot is brittle, don't update refs, etc."
mircea_popescu: kk
ben_vulpes unconvenes
mircea_popescu: reconvene
ben_vulpes reconvenes
phf: $reconvene
deedbot: $reconvene is not a command.
mircea_popescu: $conbibe
deedbot: $conbibe is not a command.
ben_vulpes: sorry phf i only respond to un-prefixed commands
mircea_popescu: $pizdets
deedbot: $pizdets is not a command.
mircea_popescu: well no, it's an observation.
asciilifeform: l0l!
ben_vulpes: lol
asciilifeform: $пиздец
deedbot: $пиздец is not a command.
phf: fancy
phf: $くそ
deedbot: $くそ is not a command.
ben_vulpes: for lo, trinque labors over the unicode
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: "random walk" has some /miserable/ css.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: sure does.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: pretty much best 'all in 1' article on subj i could find tho.
ben_vulpes has been reading through it on the mobi term for dayz, but...miserable css makes mobrowser shit itself
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: try on 'ipad' or similar.
ben_vulpes: this is /precisely/ that of which i complain
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: worked fine here.
asciilifeform: just a bitch to scroll.
ben_vulpes: "spreading"!
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: try rotating to landscape
asciilifeform: i did find myself wondering if the author has one of those 16:8 displays or the like
ben_vulpes: this is all immaterial. i don't disagree that it's a nifty "all in 1".
asciilifeform: rotated, still retarded layout
ben_vulpes: more so here
ben_vulpes: i don't...just pointing out the hoops poor d00d had to jump through in order to publish the thing.
ben_vulpes: output of which...still suxx.
phf: bigger concern is not really losing entries, but having invalid id numbers. bot keeps log a b c d bot reconnects and misses a handful of messages g h i j, now in order to insert e f back into the log need to shift g h i j ids forward so if i references h, it's now refering f instead
phf: i assume assbot handled that by having a short reconnect cycle and simply losing a message or two during an outage
phf: can of course not have a sequential id/entry mapping, but i think that breaks expectations
phf: correct way is to have n bots running on different machines, connecting to different freenode hosts, talking to each other as they get messages, and then submitting a shared answer
phf: two hard problems in distributed systems, 2. exactly once delivery 1. guaranteed order of messages 2. exactly once delivery

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