Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2015-04-24 | 2015-04-26 → ↓
danielpbarron: i compiled it using the patches that ended up becoming 0.5.3.1
danielpbarron: and this is on a pogo
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66489 @ 0.00031199 = 20.7439 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22750 @ 0.0003104 = 7.0616 BTC [-]
assbot: One good turn… | The Whet ... ( http://bit.ly/1HBNmNL )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32410 @ 0.00031014 = 10.0516 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 83450 @ 0.00030693 = 25.6133 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76644 @ 0.00030006 = 22.9978 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22095 @ 0.00029823 = 6.5894 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32711 @ 0.00029724 = 9.723 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17300 @ 0.00030826 = 5.3329 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 89350 @ 0.0002942 = 26.2868 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93100 @ 0.00030161 = 28.0799 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22418 @ 0.00029528 = 6.6196 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37012 @ 0.00029171 = 10.7968 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47800 @ 0.00029122 = 13.9203 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75100 @ 0.00030939 = 23.2352 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59300 @ 0.00031243 = 18.5271 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3900 @ 0.00031014 = 1.2095 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70500 @ 0.00031269 = 22.0446 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6050 @ 0.00031269 = 1.8918 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81750 @ 0.00030112 = 24.6166 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36555 @ 0.00030071 = 10.9925 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16095 @ 0.00030071 = 4.8399 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22250 @ 0.00029983 = 6.6712 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31642 @ 0.00030048 = 9.5078 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13100 @ 0.00031205 = 4.0879 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 94310 @ 0.00031398 = 29.6115 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11200 @ 0.000315 = 3.528 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8383 @ 0.000315 = 2.6406 BTC [+]
scoopbot_revived: News! MP's very brief foray into a poetry forum URL: http://trilema.com/2015/mps-very-brief-foray-into-a-poetry-forum/
assbot: MP's very brief foray into a poetry forum on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1bDRP6T )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8617 @ 0.00031503 = 2.7146 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39450 @ 0.00030066 = 11.861 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23550 @ 0.00031528 = 7.4248 BTC [+] {2}
williamdunne: danielpbarron: Correct, it was
williamdunne: ;;later tell danielpbarron yes, it was
gribble: The operation succeeded.
danielpbarron: what happened there? lost your key?
williamdunne: danielpbarron: Still have the key, just changed my name format
williamdunne: Its on a computer that hasn't touched the internet in a while so not worth the effort of moving it
williamdunne: Trying to use some custom Map library that claims to be the Fastest, Greatest, Most flexible. It reduced by speed by 16 times.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21700 @ 0.00029904 = 6.4892 BTC [-]
danielpbarron: what came of your XCP thing?
williamdunne: danielpbarron: Got some private investment on it, did a soft-launch, found what I did wrong, and now working on a complete overhaul which should be pretty awesome
williamdunne: So "in progress"
danielpbarron: you're actually still going to use it for something serious?
danielpbarron: my asset, MEAT, is up in value from this time last year :D
williamdunne: Oh, not XCP
williamdunne: Just the company
danielpbarron: oo, you going to get listed on MPEx?
williamdunne: Can't imagine that I have enough rep to do that yet, but its something I would be open to in the future
williamdunne: I would like to be used by MPEX for options settlement too - I believe we could offer the reliability that was missing when MP last offered them
Naphex: williamdunne - Map library for what?
williamdunne: Naphex: Matching engine, using one thats meant to write to disk and have an audit trail (as well as being stupidly high performance) but so far its treating me like shit
williamdunne: Chronicle-Map
asciilifeform looks up 'chronicle-map', reaches for barf bag marked 'java'
asciilifeform: !up yang
Naphex: williamdunne: seems like a lot of needless complexity, just use a map with random access(if you need it) and the new stream api's. should be enough performance increase. pre-alloc the memory for the map first if arraycopy is bringing the performance down.
williamdunne: asciilifeform: You'd probably be more disgusted if you knew all of the langs I enjoy using
Naphex: asciilifeform just has some spaz when he hears java. same thing when i hear about lisp
asciilifeform: williamdunne: when you eat a mighty fine dinner at your favourite restaurant, you still know that the chef often takes a shit. but it matters that he does it in the shitter and not in the kitchen
Naphex: luckaly the lisp chef will have his shit serverd and all wrapped in paranthesis :)
asciilifeform: as if it were a contest between languages
Naphex: luckily*
williamdunne: Oh shit, scoop died
williamdunne: One minute
williamdunne: There we are, revived
asciilifeform: the java stack per se - entirely ignoring the language (which is an instrument of torture) is a pernicious enough thing that i do not allow it on any metal under my control which matters
asciilifeform: in fact, specifically only on boxes kept for running malware.
asciilifeform: make of this, what you will.
Naphex: asciilifeform: how so?
Naphex: what makes it so pernicious?
asciilifeform: Naphex: there is no programming language called 'lisp', and there hasn't been since 1964 or so
asciilifeform: educated fella oughta know that.
williamdunne: Theres a couple of different versions, no?
williamdunne: Naphex: Its not lisp
Naphex: Clisp
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41219 @ 0.00029869 = 12.3117 BTC [-] {2}
Naphex: is that better ?:)
williamdunne: Brackets everywhere
williamdunne: Looks pretty good though
Naphex: anyway, what else is cooking
Naphex: 13:59 <+Naphex> williamdunne: seems like a lot of needless complexity, just use a map with random access(if you need it) and the new stream api's. should be enough performance increase. pre-alloc the memory for the map first if arraycopy is bringing the performance down.
assbot: java.util.stream (Java Platform SE 8 ) ... ( http://bit.ly/1HD54QT )
williamdunne: Naphex: I'll have a dig. I'm currently trying to find an efficient way to send messages between some order parsers and the matching engine itself
williamdunne: Currently on 166k orders per second
Naphex: williamdunne: do you do your own locking or use the locking from that Map library?
Naphex: cause you could easily beat that
williamdunne: I was just starting to experiment with it tbh, I literally just took out my treemap and put in the chronicle map
Naphex: williamdunne: what you should be doing is just using a regular map, and doing binary insert into it
williamdunne: I'll have a look at doing that
assbot: Collections (Java Platform SE 8 ) ... ( http://bit.ly/1HD7pLN )
williamdunne: 223,000/second
williamdunne: Until GC kicks in
Naphex: don't trash the mem :P
williamdunne: Doesn't particularly help that I have only 100mb of free mem currently
williamdunne: Wait, surely TreeMap is the most ideal as it guarantees that the orders are actually.. in order?
Naphex: williamdunne: you do that with a map and binary insert with a Price-Time Priority comparator
williamdunne: Derp. Well now I have to work out that one. I only started looking at Java 3-4 days ago -.-
Naphex: as long as you don't have duplicated data ( and you shouldn't)
Naphex: the map will always be sorted
williamdunne: Yeah, although don't have to deal with price-time in this case
williamdunne: Just price
assbot: White Male Crypto-Peddler is Fed Up with White Male Crypto-Peddlers (Op-Ed) ... ( http://bit.ly/1HD9DdY )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52000 @ 0.00031671 = 16.4689 BTC [+]
Naphex: williamdunne: well, you can't have dup data so you need a unique field. Price will have duplicated data :P
Naphex: atleast get a unique id or something and use that instead of time:p
williamdunne: Naphex: Would another solution not be to just append it to duplicate data? i.e if I have another order come in at $150 just add it to the quantity
williamdunne: And then the order handlers work out what belongs to who
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44711 @ 0.00029778 = 13.314 BTC [-]
Naphex: williamdunne: how will the order handlers do that?
Naphex: williamdunne: how do you define an order?
Naphex: you can group orders by price sure, but thats just for 'display'
williamdunne: Naphex: Assuming the order handlers are aware of the orders that should be in the book they can work out who placed what when and who is owed what
williamdunne: Leave the core to just push numbers around
Naphex: williamdunne: sounds reduntant
Naphex: an order should have a timestamp, side, quantity, and price if it has a limit
williamdunne: Naphex: Currently they just have side quantity and price
williamdunne: With the price being used as the key
Naphex: williamdunne: how will the order handler know who to serve and which order to execute?
williamdunne: The way I was planning it was that the core is just a simple limit/market job, and then the handlers do all of the things like checking balances before passing anything to the book itself
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20789 @ 0.00029429 = 6.118 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/15/04/25/112224/tesla-to-announce-battery-based-energy-storage-for-homes << lol "three-feet high by 2.5-feet wide, and need to be installed at least a foot and a half off the ground"
assbot: Tesla To Announce Battery-Based Energy Storage For Homes - Slashdot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Gunjtg )
williamdunne: Seems like it could be good if you're already stuck with some solar panels
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26779 @ 0.00030133 = 8.0693 BTC [+] {2}
BingoBoingo: Lithium Ion is horribru for this purpose
BingoBoingo: NiFe FTW
danielpbarron: They can be controlled with a Web app and a smartphone app. << what could go wrong?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48911 @ 0.00029449 = 14.4038 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58995 @ 0.00031033 = 18.3079 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: The LMAX Architecture ... ( http://bit.ly/1GuQw7a )
mircea_popescu: how goes the cool aid ?
ben_vulpes: also, does http://www.cascadianhacker.com/index.xml work for the new scoopbot?
williamdunne: Yeah the LMAX architecture is awesome. Matt introduced me to Java through it
williamdunne: Gave me a new respect for computer science
williamdunne: I'll check it for you
williamdunne: Server not found
williamdunne: Firefox can't find the server at www.cascadianhacker.com.
ben_vulpes: looool wtf
ben_vulpes: oh yeah, without the dubbas
williamdunne: Your www doesn't point anywhere
ben_vulpes: this was a conscious decision at one point
ben_vulpes: hand curated internets
williamdunne: index.xml should work
ben_vulpes: it's like a cabinet
williamdunne: Yeah, I do similar on my sites but I 303 www to no wwww
assbot: Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1PB45DG )
mircea_popescu: myeah. 302 ftw.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21200 @ 0.00029823 = 6.3225 BTC [-]
williamdunne: ben_vulpes: Your xml doesn't agree with scoop
williamdunne: I'll have a dig into why
williamdunne: ben_vulpes: Okay
assbot: Arch Linux ARM • View topic - Need help setting up audio ... ( http://bit.ly/1PB4w0J )
williamdunne: Needs to be rapped into a <channel>
williamdunne: *wrapped
williamdunne: <channel>
williamdunne: <item>
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: So what are these Pogos? I had a look for them but I found some cloud backup company who didn't even advertise a pogo plug as far as I could see
mircea_popescu: exactly.
assbot: 388 results for 'pogo' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=pogo
mircea_popescu: see the earliest references
ben_vulpes: williamdunne: try as atom
williamdunne: Current code doesn't support Atom but I can modify it.
ben_vulpes: thanks :)
mircea_popescu: speaking of varnish, i actually got some numbers.
mircea_popescu: YearUniques VisitsPagesHitsBandwidth
mircea_popescu: 20144,090,07393,73,82620,807,06857,005,4141.90 TB
mircea_popescu: 20152,190,29753,48,43010,599,15213,781,404599.82 GB
williamdunne: ben_vulpes: Care to publish a test article?
ben_vulpes: i'm actually writing one now
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77900 @ 0.0002904 = 22.6222 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: blergh lost conn.
mircea_popescu: so re http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110296 << the difference in numbers is due to the fact varnish ran on teh system since nov 2014. totally murdered hits and bw.
assbot: Logged on 25-04-2015 18:05:45; mircea_popescu: speaking of varnish, i actually got some numbers.
assbot: Logged on 25-04-2015 14:00:57; Naphex: luckaly the lisp chef will have his shit serverd and all wrapped in paranthesis :)
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell pete_dushenski http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/stop-all-the-clocks.ogg (no pingbacks i take it ? )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15850 @ 0.00029811 = 4.725 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110187 << you know how the literary criticism goes, "don't tell, show". you've not really shown.
assbot: Logged on 25-04-2015 14:02:19; asciilifeform: the java stack per se - entirely ignoring the language (which is an instrument of torture) is a pernicious enough thing that i do not allow it on any metal under my control which matters
mircea_popescu: cazalla dude the http://qntra.net/archives/ page kicks ass.
assbot: Archives | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1GuX0Dg )
williamdunne: ben_vulpes: Still working to get Atom support working, wasn't working with the small change
williamdunne: Having to refactor half the bloody code
mircea_popescu: "battery-based energy storage for residential and commercial customers. The batteries power up overnight when energy companies typically charge less for electricity, then are used during the day to power a home." << theres just no way this is cost effective.
mircea_popescu: the price differential won't likely even cover cost of insurance for that bomb, let alone its capital amortisation
mircea_popescu: not to even consider the fact that once this commodifies, the night discount goes away
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 91987 @ 0.00029069 = 26.7397 BTC [-] {3}
mod6: So, before I go off in another direction, I guess I should ask if anyone knows how to get a gentoo stage3 running on an AWS instance. Previously, when testing v0.5.3.1-RELEASE on an AWS instance I used a pre-build/configured AMI that are available; which leads me to believe why I probably got some slightly different results from others who had used a roll-your-own gentoo with stage3.
mod6: Is it at all possibru to set up the instance with a Gentoo AMI, and then use it as a shim to somehow re-load with a clean stage3?
Naphex: mod6: i roll my own gentoo's. what's the problem with amazon?
Naphex: mod6: why not just kill most of the stuff running on the AMI and do a chroot and set that up
Naphex: mod6: unpack a stage3 and chroot it. set it up
mod6: I'm probably just dumb. How can I setup an instance with a clean stage3. All I see that are available are AMI's. And I'm worried that they've got things/tools pre-installed that I don't want to have in there. This instance will be a build/testing server for R.I. development.
Naphex: mod6: i never used AWS. But i doubt you could switch the kernel. but the chroot should solve your issues
mod6: ok, so setup a chroot environment, and run everything in the chroot?
mircea_popescu: basically he's proposing you replace teh chroot
Naphex: aye
mod6: Thanks for the tip.
Naphex: get the latest stage, unpack it and chroot it
mircea_popescu: mod6 anyway, oince you get this working make sure to describe what you did IN GREAT DETAIL
Naphex: make sure you kill the other running stuff before
mod6: mircea_popescu: ok, will do.
trinque: deedbot's ec2 gentoo
mircea_popescu: trinque yeah, but theior pre-rolled thing ?
mod6: this is good news, because I still want to attach the 350gb drive that I used for chain storage (i've got at least 6+ fully syncd) to the instance.
Naphex: mod6: 1) kill already started services, especially any syslog running. 2) mount sysfs, procfs, and /dev (binded) 3) chroot it :P
mircea_popescu: mod6 Naphex prolly has a point in that if you actually switch out the kernel on an aws... well they basically lost it. how's their hypervisors etc to work
Naphex: mod6: if you need the other syslogs like wtmp,btmp,lastlog you'll probably have to hardlink them in log. But that should be it
mod6: ok thanks, good to know.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: musk's got a good handle on the battery safety thing. d'you recall the trumpeting over how his cell design nukes cascading failures when the Boeing batteries caught on fire midair?
williamdunne: ben_vulpes: Okay, ScoopBot now supports Cascadian
ben_vulpes: thanks williamdunne!
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes this is not how insurance works. insurance is an actuarial business
mircea_popescu: and he has no history.
williamdunne: ben_vulpes: v.welcome
assbot: Building a Gentoo AMI | BlackSwan ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBd4EJ )
trinque: ^ should work
Naphex: trinque: does amazon load the kernel or just skips it?
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: he's also self-insuring his solar panels.
mircea_popescu: kinda has to yea
ben_vulpes: well, not just the panels but the roofes on which they're installed.
ben_vulpes: and he's deeply bezzlefied, so he can probably convince tptb to let him self insure the bombs too!
ben_vulpes: rooves*
ben_vulpes: roofs
mod6: thanks trinque
ben_vulpes: there we go.
trinque: Naphex: instructions there use your own kernel
mircea_popescu: the guy is taking massive levels of risk. one of teh few contemporary capitalists actually earning hteir keep.
ben_vulpes: indeed.
mircea_popescu: and diversified enough that the arabs can-t quite outright kill him. (tho they're trying). i tell you this is a fun thing toi watch, for me.
Naphex: trinque: i guess, as i see they use xen. imho letting xen guests define the kernel is a sure way of suffering when they manage to break out of the hypervisor :P
trinque: yeah ec2 is xen
mircea_popescu: Naphex i sometimes wonder how many boxes did amazon lose to date
mircea_popescu: and of thoise, how many they ever found out about.
trinque: mircea_popescu: it's a feature for their biggest customer
Naphex: mircea_popescu: well if they do the breakout they'll surely rootkit the hypervisor kernel as well. so doubt they'll ever find out :P
Naphex: mircea_popescu: all there is left to do now is grep for secrets :P
Naphex: why lose that capability. hide it and use it for fun
mircea_popescu: exactly.
mircea_popescu: williamdunne so in the light of a new day, does the bsdm social media thing actualy look worth doing to you ?
trinque: if nobody's done it in a couple years, I'd love to take on a hosting biz on other shores
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: Its definitely an interesting job, and if its a paying job I have the time. So yes
mircea_popescu: how much would it be paying and what do you intend to actually do ?
williamdunne: I guess that depends on how we wanted to do it and the full scope - could be a big or small job. What would be the end goal? Listing on MPEX and running it continuously or building the site and palming it off to someone else
mircea_popescu: there's no one else.
williamdunne: I can do everything, if we want it to be pretty I can organize an actual designer too
mircea_popescu: sadly, for all the derpage re "bitcoin finance bla bla"
mircea_popescu: everything's not a something tho.
williamdunne: Okay, so MPEX route or just as a small private product
ben_vulpes: man, there *is* no bitcoin finance.
mircea_popescu: it could be listed, sure.
ben_vulpes: (at least this year...)
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: I'll draw up a full spec and be sure that I can do it (in terms of time) and show that to you. Good starting point?
assbot: Well welcomed, the warrior ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBeJKs )
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes shut up hater! there'sd even a bitcoin literature!
ben_vulpes: there's a bitcoin literature
ben_vulpes: there's a bitcoin stock
mircea_popescu: there's even a bitcoin girl.
williamdunne: there's bitcoin derivatives
ben_vulpes: williamdunne: any actual volume on 'em?
williamdunne: But.. but.. the blogger said there are no bitcoin girls
williamdunne: ben_vulpes: Define "actual"
trinque: ben_vulpes: can confirm my routine looks like "while (true) { if (awake) { type(); } else { dream_of_typing(); }}"
mircea_popescu: Bitcoin girl, you're outa sight, you need a bitcoin boy, to treat you right.
mircea_popescu: He'll do a little dance, take you home tonight. Leave his wallet alone, but you can kiss his node...
ben_vulpes: williamdunne: like a) how would we know if volume is what they say it is (who the fuck is operating them anyways), and b) is it oom comparable to mpoe?
williamdunne: Well if you believe the numbers, the volume is pretty huge. I believe it probably is still pretty big but wouldn't trust a bitcent on them (unlike MPOE of course)
ben_vulpes: trinque: burning too hot, buddhi
trinque: rocket or sepukku
ben_vulpes: williamdunne: well, link?
ben_vulpes: trinque: best rockets are self-cooling
ben_vulpes: williamdunne: moreover, if you'd not trust a bitcent on them, they're not really 'actual'. finance runs on trust. no trust, not finance.
assbot: BitMEX - Bitcoin Mercantile Exchange ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBfun2 )
assbot: OrderBook.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBfun4 )
assbot: 行情图表 -OKCoin美元交易站 - 最专业的比特币美元交易平台 ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBfuDs )
williamdunne: ben_vulpes: Whom I choose to trust, and who others choose to trust are very different things, in fairness
trinque: ben_vulpes: "that which does not kill you"
trinque: but yeah, I don't expect to live this way forever
ben_vulpes: williamdunne: i'd ask if you've put any money down on 'em, but i think i already know the answer to that
williamdunne: Aha yeah, not touching them.
williamdunne: I trust a few of the spot markets though
ben_vulpes: cumSize << lol
williamdunne: Although I intend to dominate them
williamdunne: But who doesn't
ben_vulpes: bitmex is offering their own margin
ben_vulpes: lol and there's a guy going by goat in the trollbox
ben_vulpes nopes out
williamdunne: Yeah, it'd be nice to see some service offered by people worth trusting
trinque: the market needs more bitcoin businesses worth a shit
williamdunne: Pretty much. What do you think of ItBit trying to become a bank? To me it looks like they failed to create an exchange people want to use and now they're trying to diversify
mircea_popescu: to me it looks like "dreams may be anything you wish"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31452 @ 0.00029823 = 9.3799 BTC [+] {2}
williamdunne: They may have managed some VC fool to give them $60m so they can get their license
mircea_popescu: i think only outsiders actually have to pay for that.
assbot: If I– | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBiwaX )
williamdunne: Thats supposedly the cost of running a bank pre-launch of your product
menahem: hey mircea, do you have an article in relation to your quotation "dreams may be anything you wish" ?
mircea_popescu: uh. well... there's that video... what was it
assbot: You can do Anything! - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBiVtS )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26200 @ 0.0003044 = 7.9753 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: !rate jurov 3 several collaborations, never a hitch.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/77bf0d276b798ec1
Pierre_Rochard: williamdunne: new york trust company not quite a bank, much lower cost
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.jurov.3:57329d33c4fc57e0aac47da8b31e04d3f729abd0f5af3606aad543713a3f1e76
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for jurov from 4 to 3 with note: several collaborations, never a hitch.
ben_vulpes: !r xmj 1 wordprexen, django, sysadminnery.
ben_vulpes: !rate xmj 1 wordprexen, django, sysadminnery.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/023a2a2da1d996f1
Pierre_Rochard: it may allow them to avoid all the money transmitter nonsense
menahem: lol, glad I asked. always a deeper layer to what you say. ;)
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.xmj.1:933aeac159af0249f00d4834cb27124d38e3e15066da9934a8c85507fe45ba23
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for xmj from 3 to 1 with note: wordprexen, django, sysadminnery.
ben_vulpes: !rate mircea_popescu 4 throws a hell of a party.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/3c4c49199f42a4a2
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.mircea_popescu.4:4430379a4deb2448d272a058f445c0cc787a4d884020bbd276a4591a3c93c58b
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mircea_popescu from 3 to 4 with note: throws a hell of a party.
ben_vulpes: !rate ssataneth 2 trade.
assbot: ssataneth is not registered in WoT.
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: "i tried and therefore no-one can criticize me" 10/10.
williamdunne: I lold
williamdunne: Pierre_Rochard: Ah I take it back then
ben_vulpes: !rate ssateneth 2 trade.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/8d3203273edc9c3e
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.ssateneth.2:b996c934d87c4faa5b123390f7514bc646e6960ff27eabce91f7b18292956cc9
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for ssateneth from 3 to 2 with note: trade.
ben_vulpes: !rate kakobrekla 4 steward of la serenissima.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/ee2b6470a77a80a8
mircea_popescu: in any case the actual costs to running a bank aren't in getting the certificate. you gotta have the damned bank.
mircea_popescu: not as easy as it seems.
menahem: what would be some of the major challenges ?
williamdunne: menahem: Compliance x10
mircea_popescu: not even. you gotta have people who can actually bank.
mircea_popescu: you know, think in the more accessible terms of a hospital.
mircea_popescu: yes, you need to get some paperwork and permits
mircea_popescu: and yes you need to get lawyers that'll protect you from being sued.
mircea_popescu: well... it's not a hospital yet, is it ? at some point you actually need some people who can cure people.
mircea_popescu: look at the sad sad story of medici bank.
mircea_popescu: created in the 1400s, ran out of bankers in the 2000s, and swiftly out of history.
mircea_popescu: INVENTED the fucking double entry ledger, these people.
assbot: The Fetlife Meatlist - Volume VI on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1z0Lvk0 )
williamdunne: How many volumes are there going to be?
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: Surely a lot of the costs can be massively reduced now? Wasn't exactly much automation in the 15th century
mircea_popescu: those aren't the costs.
mircea_popescu: the more you cut the clerical costs, the more the actual job of banking gets expensive.
mircea_popescu: and i'd expect about 40 or so.
mircea_popescu: turns out i kinda like ben_vulpes blog.
williamdunne: Have you already scraped the info or..?
mircea_popescu: nah, doing it as i go along
williamdunne: Oh dear lord
williamdunne: They haven't patched it yet?
mircea_popescu: exactly.
williamdunne: What the fuck
mircea_popescu: was funny too, the derps were like "HE DOESN:T HAS TEH SKILLSss!11!1"
mircea_popescu: yeah totally.
williamdunne: What skills? You literally told them how to do it..
mircea_popescu: dude, don't ask me.
assbot: The Bitlove LLC spin on their recent implosion, as presented to their captive audience. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBmy2M )
mircea_popescu: williamdunne but they have been dutifully banning their users (for saying anything but "this guy is horribru" and "what a violation!"). from what i hear the bancount's climbing well past 100 by now
mircea_popescu: surely this is going to do something.
williamdunne: Sent them an offer to fix it for 10 BTC
mircea_popescu: dude, that entire thing was made for 10 btc
williamdunne: I especially like the fact that their "solution" seems to be 422'ing anyone who is referred by trilema
mircea_popescu: yeah. works too, for the sort of muppets who pass along referrers
mircea_popescu: and never reload pages.
mircea_popescu: "is the hallmark of fiat psyops hell-bent on undermining their control of the monetary base. " << ben_vulpes come again ?
williamdunne: Max Keiser has started a new 'Crypto Fund' and somehow it has managed to $-2000 overnight
williamdunne: *raise $-2000 overnight
mircea_popescu: that muppet... i have no idea how he and his gf/announcer aren't in jail over the auroracoin scam
mircea_popescu: but i guess preet bharara is busy making his cell arrangements
williamdunne: Max Coin/Start Coin/Quark
williamdunne: I feel bad, because the person he's doing the 'fund' with is actually a decent guy. Been dragged in with his shit
mircea_popescu: tell the guy he is an imbecile.
williamdunne: 1/3 of the fund will be trading altcoins.. lol
mircea_popescu: i don't feel bad for this sort of "decent guy".
mircea_popescu: he is the scum of the earth.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: ty, i'll have words with the copyeditor
mircea_popescu: worse, much much worse than any deliberate scammer. the naive is the absolute shit of the world.
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.kakobrekla.4:29b873003beb1f212de3c8e9e6efbec2208c75c4ec5c5a5b558f4ad1d931a7b9
assbot: Invalid verfication string.
williamdunne: Thats a pretty broad category
ben_vulpes: !rate kakobrekla 4 steward of la srenissima.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/743140e1c2a3b4c9
mircea_popescu: i don't blame the fire for the fire.
mircea_popescu: i blame the dry wood.
mircea_popescu: dry wood is to be cut off and taken away. far, far away. in chains.
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.kakobrekla.4:8d675ddc8f1c215a54e7a752b2e5bcb8ef714d53252b17926eaa7ca6c9de5a3b
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for kakobrekla from 3 to 4 with note: steward of la srenissima.
williamdunne: No room for intent?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31544 @ 0.00030493 = 9.6187 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: yes, plenty of room.
mircea_popescu: people who do wrong unintentionally are to be punished.
williamdunne: And those who do wrong intentionally?
ben_vulpes: ! rate mike_c 3 kindred derper in fiat.
mircea_popescu: people who do it intentionally, after we're done with the clueless set.
ben_vulpes: !rate mike_c 3 kindred derper in fiat.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/82c8676d5bdf3a83
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.mike_c.3:a39f5723975f6239012276bce139acd24cdf5da37e75deba10545b1003c7face
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mike_c from 2 to 3 with note: kindred derper in fiat.
ben_vulpes: ! rate princessnell 1 coulda been a contender.
ben_vulpes: !rate princessnell 1 coulda been a contender.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/0bc12b32efc013f6
williamdunne: I've already been blocked from Max Keisers twitter, seems like I should be proud of it - I don't even remember sending a tweet to him
mircea_popescu: yea whatever happened to her
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.princessnell.1:ac067a68fa38b40733dfc1ef7abc81ce3ea936d5b0f6c18156e16f2a28119ee6
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for princessnell from 2 to 1 with note: coulda been a contender.
ben_vulpes: got sucked back into academia.
ben_vulpes: derps with derps alike.
ben_vulpes: !rate phf 1 lisper.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/1802996aea227510
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.phf.1:fb393218870b21a4a538f2373afcb710a6c76d81e2dd4c73fe2df98ada1a357c
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for phf from 2 to 1 with note: lisper.
ben_vulpes: !rate asciilifeform 4 inventor, dreamer, builder, axe-man.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/67783a843cee8f7f
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.asciilifeform.4:e03acfdc57029b6f7dabccc6af536737c2811b66f4a68e15ef2ffc589b94d72c
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for asciilifeform from 2 to 4 with note: inventor, dreamer, builder, axe-man.
ben_vulpes: !rate moiety 1 rip
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/261ebc091761b7c0
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.moiety.1:6a9e687df673d07fadd743f854a42c8afc189598fb7912745abd2636d041a98a
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for moiety from 2 to 1 with note: rip
ben_vulpes: !unrate brendafdez
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/95d23bcdf7fcfbbe
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.brendafdez:9f0adfbf033abc63d678e93287e52fee75e6f2b82cfb1e07ff2c5acb223c73b9
assbot: Successfully unrated brendafdez
ben_vulpes: ah christ will it never end
ben_vulpes: !rate pinkposixpxe 1 lent a hand with some bash.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/6f9ee5aba38a569a
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.pinkposixpxe.1:f400fb6bdf67f7973cae3630895bba2bc99a7f3ccbf8b150aa1564505eb9d1b7
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for pinkposixpxe from 1 to 1 with note: lent a hand with some bash.
ben_vulpes: !unrate xanthyos
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/3cc0739ad93367e1
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes "and the Bitcoin ramp to 1200 proved to be an artifact of a fractional-reserve exchange, for just two examples." << this doesn't make sense, because the exchange was fractional in btc not in fiat.
ben_vulpes is not operating in threaded mode today
mircea_popescu: really, the impact of mtgox on anything to do with bitcoin, its "price" y compris, is broadly overstated.
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.xanthyos:063771f705eb0f8c74a35a3ed06912c88db82549b6ad1aeedac4b1d224b64d6a
assbot: Successfully unrated xanthyos
ben_vulpes: !unrate hodlr
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/502a6bf941da9ec1
williamdunne: Much like the overstatement of China's impact in the present day
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.hodlr:45fe0b89d2b81cd1e9ef17977e7b9c27a1297f572d4ed8ed5500f9384cd11163
assbot: Successfully unrated hodlr
ben_vulpes: !unrate rainman28
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/bf6c898c08c2952a
mircea_popescu: depends present day of what. but yes, financially, it's more of a promise-to-impact, since the shanghai thing
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.rainman28:fb26fe46f1000f0fb04de29ceeee404f2769ffc32b41f35d3995f0431924305e
assbot: Successfully unrated rainman28
ben_vulpes: !rate mthreat 2 shared a cab with this pleasant chap one time.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/5dee4da0ccb1ec1f
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.mthreat.2:e66c706e882d87e12793c048fd02435a335f4ea29f5ac893806eafe42c80be93
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mthreat from 1 to 2 with note: shared a cab with this pleasant chap one time.
ben_vulpes: !unrate mats_cd03
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/84eb3e72be7ee2a3
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.mats_cd03:694d8202dde00120747c28cdc08fa3217fdf0c55bd331a07dc9ad8cae66011a6
assbot: Successfully unrated mats_cd03
ben_vulpes: !rate mats 1 skeptic, sapper.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/e66ee0294b7f9e10
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.mats.1:5a41ff385c95c2cb42f4fb651b5945cbd0f218cf383a79b0d379bf915ff8d763
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mats from 1 to 1 with note: skeptic, sapper.
mircea_popescu: anyway, this is definitely a seminal piece.
mircea_popescu: "all of the democrati tools" < +c
ben_vulpes: !rate hanbot 2 saw this legendary valkyrie in battle mode one time.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/a1622e69bf372c63
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.hanbot.2:13c1fddf38e98958768f1e956448e6bc27e85e58e3320ef7efcf8c584d43ce68
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for hanbot from 1 to 2 with note: saw this legendary valkyrie in battle mode one time.
ben_vulpes: !unrate josh_rossi
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/d3f847bc03bfece9
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.josh_rossi:ba64844f870c914d60ce6482f2a844d69719676ccbd97077a0d3bd9270733b07
assbot: Successfully unrated josh_rossi
ben_vulpes: !rate mod6 foundation co-chair.
assbot: Rating should be any non zero value between 10 and -10.
ben_vulpes: !rate mod6 4 foundation co-chair.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/b70049eea191906d
williamdunne: Does the rating have to be an integer?
ben_vulpes: williamdunne: try it and see!
williamdunne: !rate assbot 1.1 test
assbot: Rating should be any non zero value between 10 and -10.
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.mod6.4:137b83f998c89a7d7dcb1996a7d74390b3bff1f046f68382de16ea804db07274
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mod6 from 2 to 4 with note: foundation co-chair.
ben_vulpes: !rate davout 3 you wouldn't believe how this man makes the girlies eyes twinkle.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/e3540c4cdc3c1df2
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.davout.3:9ae5a5d63d4ee8a9954c91adf9e9f6e98def6da82fcacb235151890e35d96d98
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for davout from 2 to 3 with note: you wouldn't believe how this man makes the girlies eyes twinkle.
ben_vulpes: !rate davout -4 unrepentant rubbyist
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/6f1dfef95e13969d
ben_vulpes: !rate assbot 10
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/1245f32714517440
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.assbot.10:20c9ead67ad3968ad9f9617e9359eb428b89d50bdeb9a5a0a6a3aeb848f0d9eb
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 10 for assbot.
ben_vulpes: !rate nanotube 1 runs the #bitcoin-otc web of trust.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/2a303ab9bb15e443
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.nanotube.1:6b3acdaf3c87b906a7e2fbc5257d477ab2d19c4aed01c2de68966135d2ed16a4
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for nanotube with note: runs the #bitcoin-otc web of trust.
ben_vulpes: !rate chetty 2 engineer of the world that was.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/687347a7113625ca
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.chetty.2:d39733695e5e5231057a9eda40b1ee6bbdc8e536db46d48ada534ba1c2020678
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 2 for chetty with note: engineer of the world that was.
mircea_popescu: "endless cycles of printing that necessitates will do all that is necessary to turn a single Bitcoin into a nuclear sub." << is necessarily going to ?
ben_vulpes: done!
ben_vulpes: aha yeah oops
mircea_popescu: now you gotta go back through the turd and pick up my lines :D
ben_vulpes: nooooo
ben_vulpes: like some derpy nodejs program that got locked on a single queue
assbot: Logged on 23-04-2015 16:01:16; williamdunne: But in return you have more potential users of your XYZ business, and more potential to operate profitable businesses that are less-than-possible in the fiat world
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> turns out i kinda like ben_vulpes blog. << blush
assbot: Bitcoin needs no changes to destroy your world ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBrjJU )
ben_vulpes: i can't believe that i felt compelled to write it all out.
ben_vulpes: is all of the above not...elementary?
mircea_popescu: kinda what the vulgate is.
ben_vulpes: are you making a reference to the bible translation?
mircea_popescu: well yeah
mircea_popescu: tho ended up THE bible, canonically, in the 1500s
ben_vulpes: our vulgate then being pieces distilling conversations in the forum?
mircea_popescu: either that or the banal that's going to end up the canon.
ben_vulpes: quelle vulgar
mircea_popescu: that name is pretty apt, in rip-rospect.
ben_vulpes: as in bible of the commoner?
mircea_popescu: "scoopbot_REVIVED"
mircea_popescu: ;;ud wdw
gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=WDW | WDW. an acronym for the expression: "Whatever, dude. Whatever." Used to express contempt. Nate: Where were you for so long? Chris: I was banging your ...
mircea_popescu: apparently it's actually worthless dumb whore.
williamdunne: Okay, Scoop will now fix himself in the event of my connection dropping
assbot: Bitcoin needs no changes to destroy your world ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBtEo2 )
williamdunne: ben_vulpes: I'll give it a read
williamdunne: "about the stupidity of using the blockchain for anything that does not need to be:
williamdunne: immutable, fungible, non-discriminatory, and trustless"
williamdunne: -- Yeah I agree with you re: why bitcoin matters
williamdunne: (from my own post)
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes there's a wider point here btw : the internet has been slowly evolving towards immutability. this trend is visible high and low - curtis yarvin's attempt to "remake bitcoin in his own yard" did not miss this point, the general response of the fetlife cattle to the meatlist is a very sound "internet is immutable", the wind is there.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi why this is the case, seeing how on the plain consideration immutability is a very retarded concept,
mircea_popescu: but nevertheless, here we are.
ben_vulpes: williamdunne: your post?
williamdunne: ben_vulpes: I too have the capability to write, even if I'm not as eloquent as most here
mircea_popescu: so link ?
assbot: Lego Under the Giant's Feet ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBuzVF )
mircea_popescu: well.. at least it's not "bitcointhug.yo"
mircea_popescu: williamdunne so add it to the scoop
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64249 @ 0.00030493 = 19.5914 BTC [+]
williamdunne: Sure thing, well someone had to make use of the gTLDs
mircea_popescu: "immutable, fungible, non-discriminatory, and trustless" hm. this seems actually correct.
mircea_popescu: take discrimination and put it in the wot <-> currency has no business discriminating.
mircea_popescu: puts the entire serenissima vs nato dispute in much better contrast, from this angle. they want to infect everything with everything,
mircea_popescu: make it the job of banks to police, etc.
williamdunne: I think I covered the WoT a bit (well, GPG contracts) in 'Your reputation is a commodity'
mircea_popescu: socialism, after all, is not optional anymore than water level is optional.
mircea_popescu: (what i mean is, you don't get the option ot have some here and none there. if you have some, it's everywhere)
ben_vulpes: http://thethug.life/product-before-capital/ << an add'l note on the exchanges is that the product here is of necessity undifferentiable except with how liquid your shit is
assbot: Venture Backing isn't enough if no-one wants your product — Lego Under the Giant's Feet ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBv81B )
mircea_popescu: not even.
williamdunne: ben_vulpes: I'd disagree, while liquidity is important when it comes to profiting through trading there are features that matter, i.e leverage
mircea_popescu: the trustworthyness of the operator is first. liquidity second. features maybe third tho ideally the thing should be just open and anyone can build their own features.
ben_vulpes: heh without trust there *is* no product.
assbot: Your reputation is a commodity — Lego Under the Giant's Feet ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBvAwW )
mircea_popescu: "CEO MIMEX, opinions displayed do not reflect those of MIMEX" << what sense does this make ? if the opinions of the ceo are not mandatory for mimex, then what does "ceo" mean ?
mircea_popescu: and whence is mimex to get OTHER opinions from ? you got a coo ?
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: Yeah
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: More specifically it means staying in business is more important than my morals
williamdunne: For example
williamdunne: I personally I have a disdain for compliance of any sort
mircea_popescu: i know that if i'm the guy where the buck stops (usually rendered as "ceo" in anglocircles) then god damned are my opinionsmandatory for the whole organisation. wtf else are we even doing.
williamdunne: But I would prefer to be in business and doing compliance than out of business and not
mircea_popescu: sucks toi be you i guess.
williamdunne: Moral dilemma
williamdunne: L <-> R
williamdunne: Friend, Moi, Friend, Girlfriend
mircea_popescu: that's more "what" , but anyway.
mircea_popescu: ima read this noob blog later, off to eat some steak. you know what this means, ben_vulpes ? steak ? yes ?
mircea_popescu: mwahahaha.
williamdunne: http://thethug.life/reputation-commodity-exchange/#fn:1 << bro do you even airgap? << Me? Not for my personal key anyway
assbot: Your reputation is a commodity — Lego Under the Giant's Feet ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBwfOT )
ben_vulpes: the point is a constrasting of how people use keys (properly) and how people use trezors (improperly)
williamdunne: "I am not saying that the needs of the many will not be heard or, when they're justified needs, attended to, but I am saying that they must be channeled through their liege lords instead of democratically elected "representatives" who solicit donations from the rich by promising to protect them from the ravages of the destitute mob, and votes from the destitute mob by promising to protect them from the
williamdunne: depredations of the vile capitalists, ultimately serving only their own cronies at the expense of both those who funded their campaigns and those who voted for them. " heh
williamdunne: Concise summary
ben_vulpes: hey well mircea_popescu i'm off to have some real coffe
ben_vulpes: savvy?
williamdunne: ben_vulpes: Okay read your article
williamdunne: I guess what missing from it is that I still don't see why the increase in block-size, or easier access to running a semi-node is inherently bad
williamdunne: Nor why having more people using it is bad
williamdunne: While comparisons between bitcoin and a party fully of popped-collars are fine it doesn't really answer the question
cazalla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110314 <<< this is just the default manner wordpress creates an archive page, i think, unless bb made changes
assbot: Logged on 25-04-2015 18:27:00; mircea_popescu: cazalla dude the http://qntra.net/archives/ page kicks ass.
williamdunne: Wyrdmantis: Thanks for the words earlier.
wyrdmantis: williamdunne: I appreciate the "Lego Under the Giant's Feet" header among other things. And the paypal post also :)
williamdunne: Thank you, yeah. Plenty of derpage about paypal
cazalla: ben_vulpes, first link in your "Bitcoin needs no changes to destroy your world" article is busted
mod6: trinque: going throught this 'building a gentoo ami' guide... any thoughts on the "Select system profile" section? I was about to pick #11...
trinque: mod6: I tend to use the hardened profile along with a hardened kernel
trinque: with the normal glibc, not any of the alternatives
trinque: for whatever good pax and grsecurity actually do..
mod6: alright. pretend i don't know what any of that means.
mod6: #11 is ok?
trinque: dunno them by number :)
trinque: what's the title
trinque: hardened/linux/amd64 ?
mod6: hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib
trinque: no-multilib is probably fine if you don't intend to use any 32bit things
mod6: yeah, not on this machine. i'll probably end up creating a totally seperate 32bit instance at another time.
assbot: Project:Hardened - Gentoo Wiki ... ( http://bit.ly/1DnrD5W )
mod6: ok thx!
trinque: no problemo
menahem: seeing as everyone is posting their blog love, i did write this today: http://chedr.ca/2015/04/your-emotions-are-irrelevant-and-youve-missed-the-point/ (brings up mircea_popescu 's discussion on RIPple with W3C)
assbot: Your emotions are irrelevant, and you've missed the point - Chedr ... ( http://bit.ly/1DnrEXF )
mod6: eek! nano keybindings!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45600 @ 0.00030493 = 13.9048 BTC [+]
trinque: mod6: of course as per earlier thread, this idea that xen guests can be secure is laughable
trinque: rules out a class of problems I guess, but certainly should still be considered enemy territory
mod6: yeah, i got that from the above convo about hypervisors. thanks.
mod6: i guess this is just my first attempt at it. this build of gentoo needs to built with nothing extra so we can build all of the rest by hand, then we'll have a clue as to what tool chain it's using and it's not using something wacky behind our backs.
mod6: "stripped down" basically.
mod6: s/wacky/unexpected/
trinque: mod6: for sure
trinque: what I'd love to see someday is a DC with no virtualization, just tinier boxes
trinque: and some automation around sending new boxes of various sizes into service
trinque: I once worked for a company that was early (first?) in the server blade space; something like that where there's a uniform backplane which can host different configurations, maybe
mod6: cool.
mod6: this menuconfig thing ...
trinque: shit isn't it?
trinque: hitting ? will let you search for symbols
mod6: i don't even see the paravirtualized guest support option
trinque: and from that screen a number key will let you jump to a result
mod6: ok cool. thanks.
trinque: I am embarassed to admit that it took until this year for me to discover that
mod6: > Search (Paravirtualized)
mod6: No matches found.
mod6: lol
mod6: oh, search for Xen found it.
mod6: Linux guest support (HYPERVISOR_GUEST [=n])
williamdunne: trinque: Wouldn't that be the same as any DC that offers cheap metal?
trinque: williamdunne: I tend to think there's a place for metal as cheap as a micro ec2 instance for example
williamdunne: trinque: Oh like a stack of rPis in a server enclosure?
trinque: could exist, I'm not aware if so
trinque: williamdunne: yeah aside from the rpi being a particularly heinous device
williamdunne: Yeah I'm not aware either
trinque: not that I don't own many of them
williamdunne: Sure, just the general idea
trinque: indeed
trinque: so then, the nice thing about ec2 is you can spin up instances of various sizes and it "just happens" rapidly
trinque: that's where having racks that can rack/unrack hardware on the fly and a uniform backplane sounds appealing
williamdunne: For sure
trinque: that part might be retarded, and effort might be better put into anticipating what hardware needs to be on the racks already
trinque: it's a problem that from the perspective of trying to maximize occupancy is much easier to solve with the virtualization turd
mod6: ok qq: i saved the config as 'btc-dev-gentoo64-ami.config', under the chroot: /usr/src/linux ; do I need to do anything specific to ensure that I'm compiling with this config instead of the defaulted filename '.config' ?
trinque: mod6: there may or may not be a flag to tell it to use a different config file, but by default it will use .config
trinque: typically I copy the config there, and also store it elsewhere for reuse
mod6: ok
trinque: so you don't mrproper yourself out of a config
mod6: gotcha
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62200 @ 0.00030141 = 18.7477 BTC [-]
Naphex: mod6: i'd just do the chroot thing and getting it done. doing a custom kernel won't help you much running in a hypervisor
mod6: i just copied my config to .config, w/e
mod6: Naphex: im pretty dumb.
trinque: Naphex: rolling your own gentoo is a good learning experience
Naphex: trinque: yeah but might as well just skip the kernel.
mod6: i know like, zero about gentoo.
Naphex: trinque: gentoo doesn't even have iptables defaulted, so as soon as his done he'll end up recompiling
trinque: recompiling the kernel 100 times is sop
mod6: awe fuq
trinque: sure configuring a kernel is a massive pain in the dick, but at least you get more acquainted with what's in there
Naphex: trinque: i like doing it once and then just reusing the config on the same hardware :P
trinque: indeed, he's just getting started!
trinque: no sense in giving him the answers to the test
Naphex: but if you wanna learn on aws go for it. if you just want to set up chroot and start bootstrapping
asciilifeform: ;;later tell ben_vulpes http://imgur.com/a/xogco << back from this
assbot: electron microscopy visit - Album on Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/1bFqGR5 )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: Installing the Gentoo base system - Gentoo Wiki ... ( http://bit.ly/1bFqFwF )
Naphex: later you can keep on recompiling the kernel
trinque: Naphex: eh? stage 3 doesn't give you a kernel
trinque: or does it now?
trinque: never did before
Naphex: trinque: it is in portage, you do an emerge for gentoo-sources
Naphex: trinque: or hardened-sources for production
trinque: uhuh, that's not a compiled kernel
mod6: that's what i just am doing now. it's compiling from that.
trinque: you still have to configure it
trinque: or use genkernel like some kind of pedestrian
mod6: i have a chroot set up, and all that. im still not even sure how any of this will work.
mod6: but i'll just take your word for it.
Naphex: trinque: genkernel is pretty helpful on servers with firmware for building a quick initramfs
trinque: you keep saying "quick"
Naphex: trinque: boot time is fast anyway
trinque: that's not what's called for when learning
trinque: neither is boot time being fast relevant
assbot: Logged on 25-04-2015 18:22:57; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110187 << you know how the literary criticism goes, "don't tell, show". you've not really shown.
Naphex: well its better to learn from best practices on these kind of things and drill down
asciilifeform: ;;google jvm exploit
gribble: The Java Security Exploit in (Mostly) Plain English - Tim Boudreau: <http://timboudreau.com/blog/The_Java_Security_Exploit_in_(Mostly)_Plain_English/read>; Report: Half of all exploits target Java | JavaWorld: <http://www.javaworld.com/article/2104862/java-security/report-half-of-all-exploits-target-java.html>; Java and Java Virtual Machine security vulnerabilities ... - Black (1 more message)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28941 @ 0.00030133 = 8.7208 BTC [-]
trinque: asciilifeform: reminds me, you are the top result for "critique of clojure" on my googles at least
asciilifeform: trinque: was among top ~10 for 'clojure' per se, for a while
trinque: nice
Naphex: asciilifeform: applets are applets and security issues are all around. being a good dev implies taking care with deploying your product
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110320 << fits right in the the other 1,001 things that turn into turd ideas when 'everybody does it', like private automobile
assbot: Logged on 25-04-2015 18:29:26; mircea_popescu: not to even consider the fact that once this commodifies, the night discount goes away
asciilifeform: Naphex: how do you take care of undiscovered 0days in turdware stack ?
asciilifeform: other than by -not using it-
trinque: asciilifeform: uh like, #shipit
Naphex: asciilifeform: and you get all sorts of added on. as well the standerd jre is pretty clean. most of the exploiting fun is on j2ee app servers and other enterprisey thingies
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 126309 @ 0.00030571 = 38.6139 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: SUN JRE : List of security vulnerabilities ... ( http://bit.ly/1bFrGES )
asciilifeform: if that's 'pretty clean', i shudder to imagine Naphex's idea of 'dirty'
Naphex: asciilifeform: there won't be any 0days in the basic stuff. There are rarely buffers in the stack. And everything is accounted for. NIO/events/the threads etc are all safe and you don't give raw user input to them
Naphex: asciilifeform: getting any shellcode anywhere would be retarded
Naphex: asciilifeform: the languasge and jre are pretty fine. when it comes to enterprise stacks and j2ee it goes all around
asciilifeform: but to get back to original thread, i wasn't even specifically thinking of 0days in the jre itself, but the overall turdification and prevention of fits-in-head that java inescapably leads to.
Naphex: asciilifeform: and you defend from 0 days as always. running hardened and buring your servers while filltering all input
asciilifeform: to paraphrase mircea_popescu article, if christ saves in java - let me go straight to hell.
Naphex: burying*
asciilifeform: burying ?
asciilifeform: mistranslation from ??? ?
asciilifeform: where should i bury my servers? back yard? cemetery ?
Naphex: asciilifeform: in your private encrypted lan maybe
trinque: wtf is this guy?
trinque: Naphex: there's a difference between knowing of things and knowing them comprehensively
Naphex: i agree ;]
trinque: so atop your shit tower of an incomprehensible computing stack and a further incomprehensible virtual computing stack you what?
trinque: it's all probably fine because reasons?
Naphex: huh?
trinque: the situation there is too complex for you or any other fool to be able to claim with certainty that it's secure
Naphex: which situation?
trinque: I'm not going to copy and paste the last 20 lines of logs for you
Naphex: well i have no clue what you're saying is too complex
Naphex: to be secure
Naphex: wtf are you talking about really?
asciilifeform: gotta love this ritualistic 'secure' that doesn't entail actually understanding anything
trinque: asciilifeform: you just cast "protect" with enough manna and you're good
Naphex: asciilifeform: are your servers secure ascii?
asciilifeform: mumble the words, sprinkle blood of virgin --- s3cur3!
Naphex: asciilifeform: do you do any net code? in what?
Naphex: is it secure?
trinque: also make sure you've got an enterprise grade "encrypted LAN"
Naphex: asciilifeform: how do you defend from 0days? on the stuff you host?
asciilifeform: Naphex likes to ask questions.
Naphex: preach me the 'secure' way please
Naphex: i'd like the learn
Naphex: to*
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39796 @ 0.00031407 = 12.4987 BTC [+] {3}
asciilifeform: Naphex: if you actually would - straight to the logs.
asciilifeform: Naphex: if you're interested in my concept in particular, see article 'don't blame the mice.'
Naphex: asciilifeform: i do work, explain me in tehnical terms
Naphex: do you do anything to prevent?
Naphex: or protect yourself, any techniques?
trinque: "I don't want to read that much; can you tweet me about secure?"
Naphex: trinque: lol, you think encrypted lans are 'enterprise'
asciilifeform: !s specificity of diddling
assbot: 4 results for 'specificity of diddling' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=specificity+of+diddling
asciilifeform: ^ basic principle
asciilifeform: Naphex ^
trinque: Naphex: you'd have to give me a coherent explanation of what you think an encrypted LAN is before I could possibly tell you what I think about it.
Naphex: trinque: if you have servers, and they are linked together maybe you're using a DC Switch
Naphex: trinque: and you might want the data transfered between them, you know encrypted
Naphex: so people don't snoop on it. maybe its private
williamdunne: Naphex: Isn't the general idea that you use end-to-end encryption not hub and spoke encryption
Naphex: so maybe you setup, ipsec.. or something to keep that channel encrypted.
Naphex: williamdunne: ipsec is end-to-end
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9250 @ 0.00031689 = 2.9312 BTC [+] {2}
trinque: Naphex: it takes some humility to be able to see that while you may be able to reason about ipsec in the abstract, neither you nor anyone else can take the current computing stack and fit it in his head
trinque: (notwithstanding that I don't see how ipsec protects some JRE app)
trinque: if you cannot fit it in your head, you are a liar if you point to it and say you know it to be secure
trinque: if we're talking about how best to patch the raft we're riding in, sure, tape the thing and hope for the best
trinque: if tape is all you have
decimation: no analysis of security can begin without identifying exactly what one wishes to keep secret, and from whom
Naphex: trinque: okay. make your point
Naphex: trinque: is it the word secuire thats the problem, s/secure/replace/ ?
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> ;;later tell ben_vulpes http://imgur.com/a/xogco << back from this << oooh
assbot: electron microscopy visit - Album on Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/1bFv82r )
Naphex: anyway, what i was saying is you take steps 'secure' or tape your stuff always, and you don't feed raw data to your apps if you can filter the input beforehand.
asciilifeform: again with the rituals and enumerated badness.
Naphex: anyway. words ain't much to me and I ain't one to duke it out on irc for random bullshit
decimation: Naphex: can you sign your name under the resulting machine code - all of it - that will 'filter' and 'app' the crap coming from your socket?
Naphex: keep your stuff safe. i try to
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> ... prevention of fits-in-head << can vouch for the pita of this in clojure
ben_vulpes: how does it work?
ben_vulpes: fuck if i know.
asciilifeform: Naphex: ... I ain't one to duke it out on irc for random bullshit << spewing garbage, on the other hand, is perfectly fine ?
Naphex: decimation: yeah, you can do a lot of stuff. depending on far you want to go
Naphex: asciilifeform: which part of it was garbage?
asciilifeform: the 'filtering', 'encrypted lan', and other idiot industry shibboleths
asciilifeform: the jvm advocacy
Naphex: what's wrong with them?
asciilifeform: and pretty much all of it.
ben_vulpes: <williamdunne> trinque: Oh like a stack of rPis in a server enclosure? << just start buying cheap old blades and racking them.
Naphex: yeah jvm does its job what of it?
ben_vulpes: there's nothing more undervalued right now than cheap old blades.
Naphex: and i wasn't advocating it
Naphex: you were shiting on it
asciilifeform: i will continue to shit on it.
Naphex: as i will on clisp
asciilifeform: clisp is pretty bad.
ben_vulpes: lol what is clisp?
Naphex: cause it shit, and the paranthesis suck
ben_vulpes: bahahaha
Naphex: :P
ben_vulpes: wow i've never heard that argument made in the wild
ben_vulpes: what -- specifically -- hurts about the parens, naphex?
Naphex: ben_vulpes: the button
trinque: oh dear
Naphex: and really, i hate the way they look
trinque: ben_vulpes: cheap blades for sure
Naphex: )))
ben_vulpes ' tiny brain drips from ears
asciilifeform: naggum had an interesting observation about why folks very quickly bring out the 'parentheses pain' >> http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3138961746451885@naggum.no.html
assbot: Re: Follow up to "New To Lisp: Advantages of Lisp syntax" - Naggum cll archive ... ( http://bit.ly/1bFw1YO )
decimation: blades suck ass, but you can probably buy them from junk dealers for cheap
asciilifeform: but i think we did this one here. nobody, apparently, reads logs
trinque: decimation: yeah, the idea would be to replace tiny VMs I think
trinque: I'd have a use for that
trinque has to step away for a bit
trinque: Naphex: consider that your gut reactions may be poorly tuned
decimation: I'm not against putting things on bare metal, just that blades lock you into a generally shitty 'blade-crate' vendor
Naphex: trinque: what do you do?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 78900 @ 0.00030014 = 23.681 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes: menahem: blockquotes on your blog with the email formatting is a pita to read
ben_vulpes: !up menahem
ben_vulpes: decimation: what do you mean 'blade-crate' vendor?
asciilifeform: Naphex: the button << wai wat
menahem: ben_vulpes totally. didnt know how to approach that.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12900 @ 0.00029199 = 3.7667 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes: Naphex: he runs a payment processor and web fast food order taker/relayer to fast fooderies
ben_vulpes: built the whole thing himself, he did
Naphex: trinque: how do you keep the payment data secure?
ben_vulpes: menahem: try a <pre> tag instead
Naphex: do you worry about 0days? and attacks?
menahem: ben_vulpes ill give that a go next time.
Naphex: trinque: have you any protection in place for the payment data and the orders?
menahem: thanks tho.
Naphex: trinque: do you consider your solutions secure?
decimation: ben_vulpes: how do you mount your blades to the rack?
ben_vulpes: usually i bolt them on directly, but i'm a barbarian and haven't actually derped much with physical servers.
ben_vulpes: you're talking about slides etc?
decimation: are you talking about a server that fits in 1u or 2u?
ben_vulpes: i've only ever racked 1us
ben_vulpes: you people keep mistaking me for someone who knows what he's doing or talking about
assbot: Blade server - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1bFxkqz )
decimation: typically the word 'blade' is used for a computer that's mounted vertically in the rack, in some kind of proprietary container
ben_vulpes: ah gotcha
decimation: usually with power, bus, network, etc supplied as part of the 'crate'
ben_vulpes: my mistake my mistake
decimation: as opposed to a 1u server you slip into the rack
ben_vulpes: <ben_vulpes> there's nothing more undervalued right now than cheap old servers << okay fixd
decimation: yeah makes sense
decimation: although in terms of raw compute power/watt they can suck
decimation: actually I wonder how many folks use an old dell/hp server hosted at home on their cable modem
decimation: and then route packets through aws just for spam protection
assbot: Logged on 25-04-2015 21:39:55; trinque: what I'd love to see someday is a DC with no virtualization, just tinier boxes
asciilifeform: (some place that let out 'arm' boxes)
decimation: asciilifeform: supposedly there are moves to stuff thousands of little arm servers in a rack
decimation: but I haven't seen it become mainstream
asciilifeform: decimation: kakobrekla linked to a farm which takes orders even now, but i don't have the url handy
asciilifeform: in the log, somewhere.
decimation: yeah but you can't go to dell,hp, and order a crate of arm boxes (to my knowledge)
asciilifeform: decimation: they operate under the dictum 'thou shalt not produce machine upon which microshit cannot run and in fact be the preferred or forced choice'
asciilifeform: when microshit's arm winblows catched up, dell et al - will ship'em.
asciilifeform: *catches
decimation: HP recommends Microsoft Windows
assbot: Dell PowerEdge C5125 Microserver | Dell ... ( http://bit.ly/1E5Pdbb )
decimation: but 12 servers in a 3u box is lam
asciilifeform: and will sell you the necessary x86 box, yes, 'in any colour you like so long as...' (TM)
decimation: need 100 in a 3u box
decimation: there's an obvious tension between "we sell you cheap enterprise servers" and "we only support xeon"
asciilifeform wonders if any known arm incarnation supports ecc ram
decimation: asciilifeform: did you notice that ti now sells msp430 with 'fram'?
assbot: FRAM Microcontroller - Overview - MSP430 FRAM Series - TI.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1E5PXwU )
asciilifeform recalls a number of these
decimation: msp430 actually is a decent candidate for small micro-controller of interest
decimation: there are full verilog implementations available, for future-proofing
asciilifeform: available where ?
decimation: one of the few 'open-cores' that isn't vaporware
assbot: openMSP430 :: Overview :: OpenCores ... ( http://bit.ly/1E5QG1b )
decimation: also some guy claims to have a working 'gnat' implementation http://sourceforge.net/projects/msp430ada/
assbot: MSP430-Ada | SourceForge.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1E5QM9e )
asciilifeform tried 'opensparc' and a number of smaller things, but not this
decimation: unfortunately no floating point unit, but that isn't needed for the target market here
trinque: Naphex: one does the best he can with the leaky raft
trinque: but that should not keep him from imagining a better vessel
asciilifeform: trinque: '... if you actually cause them to understand it in the course of a discussion, you will only make them miserable and hate their lives. People are pretty good at detecting that this is a likely outcome of thinking, and it takes conscious effort to brace yourself and get through such experiences.'
assbot: Re: Lisp advocacy misadventures - Naggum cll archive ... ( http://bit.ly/1E5VN1m )
trinque: very much so, have read it
asciilifeform: !up gabriel_laddel
gabriel_laddel: thank you
asciilifeform: trinque: doctor sometimes tells patient hard truths about where the latter is headed. but doctor can dispense dope to ease the pain. this is hard to do over irc.
gabriel_laddel: Naphex: regarding security - read more. A few links that have turned up in the logs are available at http://gabriel-laddel.github.io/arsttep.html#sec-6-2-3
assbot: A Realistic Solution to the Education Problem (DRAFT) ... ( http://bit.ly/1E5Wjwg )
gabriel_laddel: Naphex: regarding lisp - read more. This section + footnotes http://gabriel-laddel.github.io/arsttep.html#sec-6-2-1
assbot: A Realistic Solution to the Education Problem (DRAFT) ... ( http://bit.ly/1E5WvMd )
gabriel_laddel: then read all of loper os
gabriel_laddel: then all of the logs
gabriel_laddel: EVERYTHING you've thought on the subject has been covered.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: that clock i bought from the street spammer works about as well as ought to be expected. sometimes stops for 2,3,4,5+ hours - then runs... then, again...
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: almost made the mistake of trying to catch the planes by that clock, but realized in time.
asciilifeform: i mention it because i can imagine a world where such clocks are considered not only acceptable, but 'state of the art' and 'best practice'
asciilifeform: (if computing is any guide of the quantity and sheer vomitrous power of fecalia people can be persuaded to swallow)
assbot: Narrated video of the poem ‘Stop all the clocks (again)’ | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1E5ZoN2 )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
pete_dushenski: goddam wp is hit and miss.
williamdunne: gabriel_laddel:
pete_dushenski: in any event... just read your bitcoin treatise, ben_vulpes. sharp!
pete_dushenski: ;;later tell peterl if you're alive, http://bablogs.btcscoop.com isn't talking to cascadianhacker.
assbot: #bitcoin-assets blog posts ... ( http://bit.ly/1E61dJK )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
pete_dushenski: williamdunne mebbe you could have scoopbot_revived post to a page on your site ?
Naphex: gabriel_laddel: hi o/ thanks for the links, what is Masamune? did you write it?
pete_dushenski: a blogpost repository of sorts for b-a
williamdunne: What like a log of all blog posts
gabriel_laddel: Naphex: Currently writing it.
williamdunne: Definitely possible
Naphex: gabriel_laddel: what is it?
gabriel_laddel: Naphex: read the linked post if you'd like to know
williamdunne: pete_dushenski: I'll do that tomorrow/Monday
pete_dushenski: williamdunne i'd appreciate this service and i'm sure i'm not alone
Naphex: gabriel_laddel: maybe other people want to know too, i will check the link
Naphex: gabriel_laddel: maybe other people wanna know and ask questions
Naphex: gabriel_laddel: can you tell me anything about it?
gabriel_laddel: and perhaps I'll tell them to stfu and read?
gabriel_laddel: FUCK YOU READ MORE
williamdunne: pete_dushenski: Sure, a #b-a library of sorts
Naphex: oh
Naphex: well fuck off then
Naphex: you and your shitty github page
Naphex: see i don't have to care
gabriel_laddel: ;; gettrust Naphex
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user gabriel_laddel to user Naphex: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=gabriel_laddel&dest=Naphex | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=Naphex | Rated since: Tue Apr 15 12:14:50 2014
pete_dushenski: williamdunne exactly that. thanks for taking a look at this! damn you're useful.
williamdunne: pete_dushenski: Very welcome. Not too big of a job
williamdunne: It won't cover all of history though, most of the RSS feeds only cover 5-10 posts each
pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110730 << williamdunne, whoa are you like 21 or something ?
assbot: Logged on 25-04-2015 20:39:52; mircea_popescu: https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/572468782057013248/WtdCdJXG_400x400.jpeg << so who are teh people ?
williamdunne: Although obviously it will cover all future posts
williamdunne: pete_dushenski: 18
pete_dushenski: lol snap.
pete_dushenski: an impressed is me.
williamdunne: Thanks, thought I'd start young
pete_dushenski: and yea, 5-10 posts or w/e is fine.
pete_dushenski: of history.
williamdunne: Ideal, well I can definitely get that done, not a big job. I'll see if there is any standardized way to get RSS to provide a full history
pete_dushenski: excellent.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110941 << interestingly, i asked about the cost. was told something like '$1m for the old style, 2.5 for the new generation.' fella said this with straight face, too, as if there were nothing remarkable about this factoid.
assbot: Logged on 25-04-2015 22:27:41; ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> ;;later tell ben_vulpes http://imgur.com/a/xogco << back from this << oooh
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al ^^^ mega-inflationary-l0lz4tr0n
pete_dushenski: ;;later tell menahem re: http://chedr.ca/2015/04/your-emotions-are-irrelevant-and-youve-missed-the-point/ << 1. dunno why i didn't see the trackbacks from this... 2. kinda hard to read with all the >>>>s 3. a blogger is you!
assbot: Your emotions are irrelevant, and you've missed the point - Chedr ... ( http://bit.ly/1QuBrFK )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: creature in the photo is pet, not owner of instrument
asciilifeform: item in the chamber was, i think, a dragonfly
menahem: pete_dushenski ive got a good assistant now.. freed up some time. ;) and agreed, my bad on the >>, it's an email thread.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform i seem to recall '$1mn' being tossed around about 10 years ago
pete_dushenski: menahem just something to edit out. blogs aren't chiseled in stone y'know ;)
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: it also matters, for what. usually these things need 3-phase mains, cooling water, often - a handy dewar with ln2, maintenance contract, etc.
menahem: pete_dushenski def, ill try <pre> as per ben_vulpes reco. always a work in progress. :)
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform ugh 'maintenance contracts'. perhaps the only thing more blood-sucking than a mortgage
asciilifeform: the vacuum pumps (all stages) appeared to be built into the cabinet, however.
asciilifeform: also visited a place where they did sputtering.
pete_dushenski: for the ignorant, what's 'sputtering' ?
assbot: UCCS | 404 Page Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/1E66Tn3 )
asciilifeform: chances are, you are looking at a sputtered surface right now.
assbot: Intro to sputtering (process to create clear, conductive coatings) - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1E6795x )
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform will watch.
asciilifeform: ^ not my film, but interesting
menahem: pete_dushenski maintenance contracts - no good ? i love selling them. :)
pete_dushenski: well... i'm sure you do!
pete_dushenski: !rate williamdunne 1 responsive and energetic.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/a8f4c7444fc61a2f
menahem: some things need the luv, or they deteriorate. much like buildings, roads, etc. much won't sustain without the maintenance.
pete_dushenski: !v assbot:pete_dushenski.rate.williamdunne.1:bbe7dc99e44de364bb27d4745e33db2b80fc3d8da77a371c288223af85f3c58b
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for williamdunne with note: responsive and energetic.
williamdunne: Thanks Pete
pete_dushenski: !rate menahem 2 had drinks, had coffee, finally knocked sense into him.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/9c7c3a0850fe3681
pete_dushenski: !v assbot:pete_dushenski.rate.menahem.2:ff2b6568a2919406cdfcef2c2fbd6c6c89985e454a358859584b18a3b7613147
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for menahem from 1 to 2 with note: had drinks, had coffee, finally knocked sense into him.
menahem: lol! sense you knocked into me indeed. much appreciated!
menahem: still doing it. ;)
pete_dushenski: lol what else am i good for ?
menahem: well, I read your new poem
menahem: well, remake of one
menahem: "If I can keep it together when all and everyone
menahem: Are losing their cool and hating me,
menahem: If I can trust my WoT until my time is done,
menahem: And be the Pete the world requires of me"
pete_dushenski: i'm such a rhymer.
pete_dushenski: me and... me
pete_dushenski: love to keep going but meatspace beckons.
pete_dushenski: until next time!
menahem: lol, love is only increasing ! you being you (and like others in the wot) is bringing out the best in people.. even though they may not realize it this moment.
menahem: ha, see ya.
menahem: best = more intelligent
Naphex: oh wow, just read the news. so bitgo finally popped with the worst mistake they can make?;o
Naphex: gn.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100600 @ 0.00029935 = 30.1146 BTC [+]
assbot: vytah comments on Holy Satoshi! Butter pays 85Btc transaction fees for a 16Btc transaction. Is this the largest fee ever paid? ... ( http://bit.ly/1E6kISv )
Pierre_Rochard: “Captains of the industry. If they were captains of any other industry, like say for example automotive, we'd have people dying in car crashes between two stationary vehicles."
Naphex: :D good one!
trinque: "So what you're saying is that this currency of the future can destroy my savings because of an error and nobody is responsible?" << b-but, who will inforce what's fair?!
trinque: what is this obsession with making things safe, as though you don't still die in agony at the end?
trinque: and likely more agony because you fretted about it your whole miserable life
williamdunne: Responsibility is scary bro
trinque: Naphex: regarding earlier thread, things such as parsing inputs, putting sensitive data on networks that don't knock knees directly with the web, all great stuff
Naphex: oh, i tought you hated it
trinque: not at all; it'd be good not to get personality wrapped up in such discussions too
trinque: it's just, what would be better than the complex wad we have currently?
trinque: reading asciilifeform's blog and various excellent threads in the logs would be instructive there
trinque: I personally do not claim to have the answer, or I'd be typing from it
Naphex: dude, i was giving my 2 cents on what people can do to harden up
Naphex: no jimmies rustled. most of that stuff is necessary whenever you have more servers
Naphex: or have to internal networking
trinque: mhm
Naphex: but if you have nothing you will be fucked and quickly
Naphex: and not by the NSA, by some kid with some scripts
williamdunne: I just spent 30 minutes trying to work out why the hell my DB connection wasn't working. I was editing the wrong fucking config file.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54750 @ 0.00030896 = 16.9156 BTC [+]
trinque: Naphex: certainly, if one doesn't tape the raft's holes, he'll drown
Naphex: i see now that the term secure was the problem. how about hardened?
trinque: I can admire a survivor ingenuity, crafting spears from bamboo and all that
trinque: no harm in that
Naphex: well ain't that security?
scoopbot_revived: News! BitGo Bug Results In Loss Of User Funds By Way Of 85 BTC Fee URL: http://qntra.net/2015/04/bitgo-bug-results-in-loss-of-user-funds-by-way-of-85-btc-fee/
assbot: BitGo Bug Results In Loss Of User Funds By Way Of 85 BTC Fee | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1E6qe7J )
Naphex: trinque: how would you define perfect security?
trinque: Naphex: I currently cannot; it would first require being able to model the whole system in my head at once
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8486 @ 0.00029935 = 2.5403 BTC [-]
Naphex: so when you say system, how deep/high do we go?
trinque: Naphex: here's a good example by the way of what can be done with what we have: http://mpex.co/faq.html#18
trinque: Naphex: as far as what it means to have a fits-in-head system, please do read asciilifeform's material; he's far more qualified to say.
Naphex: trinque: that's airgapped gpg. you can implement gpg all over. Not sure how much airgapping it helps. A lot of sidechannel attacks comming up nowadays that can grab keys
Naphex: local is always a threat as well, no matter where you airgap
Naphex: having a annonymous ip is dandy. but no way anywhere near as enough. you still have to implement most of the stuff i said above especially the filtering part
Naphex: to defend from any exposing dos attacks
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 137900 @ 0.00029076 = 40.0958 BTC [-] {3}
Naphex: anyway. i'm off. gn
Pierre_Rochard: williamdunne: had a similar head against wall bug yesterday, in pgsql: to_timestamp(‘2014-2’, ‘YYYY-Q’), doesn’t work because the docs clearly state “quarter (ignored by to_date and to_timestamp)” but it was three hours of desperate refactoring before I actually read them.
williamdunne: Its so easy to ignore the most simplistic bugs.. derpage galore.
Pierre_Rochard: I was outraged because the reason they ignore quarter (and don’t raise an error!) is because there’s no convention as to whether the date should be the beg or end of the quarter. Month, week, etc do the beginning, why not adopt that as the convention!?
Pierre_Rochard: anyway, lesson learned and appropriate duct tape applied
williamdunne: Conventions, are, like hard man
trinque: I'd love a proper emacs mode which could more or less "eldoc" postgresql functions
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46700 @ 0.00029773 = 13.904 BTC [+] {2}
williamdunne: Anyone know a decent footnotes plugin for WP?
williamdunne: Found one
cazalla: williamdunne, qntra uses Civil Footnotes
scoopbot_revived: News! Deloitte: A Bitcoin Successor Is The Future Of Payments URL: http://qntra.net/2015/04/deloitte-a-bitcoin-successor-is-the-future-of-payments/
assbot: Deloitte: A Bitcoin Successor Is The Future Of Payments | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1HG4Bit )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 125100 @ 0.00031142 = 38.9586 BTC [+] {3}
williamdunne: cazalla: Cheers
decimation: "Mobile payments are a natural extension of the digital lifestyle, while protection against digital theft becomes an imperative for regulatory agencies around the world." < note usg mission creep
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35250 @ 0.0003083 = 10.8676 BTC [-]
Pierre_Rochard: ^ They should start by securing president hussein’s email
Pierre_Rochard: but what do I know, I’m just an accountant
decimation: asciilifeform: http://www.ti.com/tool/tmdxrm46hdk < arm chip with ecc ram (and ecc bus)
assbot: TMDXRM46HDK Hercules Development Kit - TMDXRM46HDK - TI Tool Folder ... ( http://bit.ly/1PCxNZ0 )
decimation: Pierre_Rochard: regulatory agencies indeed
decimation: asciilifeform: http://opencores.org/news,1420039286 < apparently the openMSP430 was used as the basis for an eu-manufactured rad-hard asic microcontroller for space
assbot: OpenCores ... ( http://bit.ly/1HGaPiw )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4150 @ 0.0003083 = 1.2794 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 105850 @ 0.00030596 = 32.3859 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 73331 @ 0.00031505 = 23.1029 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44491 @ 0.00031723 = 14.1139 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: what the fuck is deloitte even
mircea_popescu: hmm, anyone kept in touch with that bravetheworld chick ? danielpb1rron ?
mircea_popescu: Subject: Please, this is not a SPAM. We need your indispensable input on an important digital currency study
mircea_popescu: From: "Contact Bitgazetteer Team" <contact@bitgazetteer.com>
mircea_popescu: Date: Sat, April 25, 2015 9:07 pm
mircea_popescu: Greetings from bitgazetteer.com,
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mircea_popescu: dude...srsly ?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110745 << i lived in costa rica for a few years, so yeah. but never been much of a coffee drinker, so... whatevs!
assbot: Logged on 25-04-2015 20:45:01; ben_vulpes: savvy?
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell BayAreaCoins prolly later tonight i'd guess.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: !up AmbitionzAzARida
mircea_popescu: !up austeritysucks
mircea_popescu: !up itkin-
mircea_popescu: !up maxwell
mircea_popescu: !up PFate_
mircea_popescu: !up SirJacket
assbot: Logged on 25-04-2015 21:16:50; menahem: seeing as everyone is posting their blog love, i did write this today: http://chedr.ca/2015/04/your-emotions-are-irrelevant-and-youve-missed-the-point/ (brings up mircea_popescu 's discussion on RIPple with W3C)
assbot: Your Feelings are Out to Get You | The Whet ... ( http://bit.ly/1HGhoBz )
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: In a couple of days could you make your RSS feed show all bitcoin related articles for an hour or so?
assbot: Logged on 25-04-2015 21:56:01; Naphex: trinque: gentoo doesn't even have iptables defaulted, so as soon as his done he'll end up recompiling
mircea_popescu: i think it does this already.
assbot: Trilema » Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1HGijSE )
williamdunne: Just shows the last 5
williamdunne: !s library
assbot: 405 results for 'library' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=library
assbot: Logged on 25-04-2015 23:32:46; pete_dushenski: williamdunne mebbe you could have scoopbot_revived post to a page on your site ?
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/category/bitcoin/ shows the lot but i suppose you don't like html cruft ?
assbot: Bitcoin on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1HGiqNY )
williamdunne: Hmm I can probably deal with it, I'll take a look
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110867 << that's what the ruby on rails folk say too
assbot: Logged on 25-04-2015 22:03:37; Naphex: asciilifeform: applets are applets and security issues are all around. being a good dev implies taking care with deploying your product
assbot: Logged on 25-04-2015 22:06:38; asciilifeform: to paraphrase mircea_popescu article, if christ saves in java - let me go straight to hell.
assbot: ::: Wotbox ::: Web Crawler ::: ... ( http://bit.ly/1HGjNMz )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65600 @ 0.00031871 = 20.9074 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110915 << i still think this'd all benefit from a lot more documentation.
assbot: Logged on 25-04-2015 22:14:03; asciilifeform: Naphex: if you're interested in my concept in particular, see article 'don't blame the mice.'
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110943 << but obviously "raw data" is not the only concern. right ?
assbot: Logged on 25-04-2015 22:28:04; Naphex: anyway, what i was saying is you take steps 'secure' or tape your stuff always, and you don't feed raw data to your apps if you can filter the input beforehand.
asciilifeform raises periscope
mircea_popescu: how goes alf
asciilifeform: tired, l0l
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this'd all benefit from a lot more documentation << which 'this'
mircea_popescu: the linked this. "my concept in particular"
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell thebutterzone yo, around ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: concept alluded to was 'fits in head.' i suppose this is a good time and place to note that it can be accomplished in three basic ways: a) small system b) big head c) powerful hydraulic press
asciilifeform: or any combo of above.
asciilifeform: !up gabriel_laddel
mircea_popescu: dja see where there's a lot more room for documentation ?
asciilifeform: certainly
asciilifeform adds 'fits in head' likbez to middle of very long list
gabriel_laddel: About this "don't feed raw data into your app" and "filtering" nonsense - if you're using a language that isn't complete shit you never need to "filter data" (just communicate in sexprs and (let* ((*read-eval* nil)) ...))
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel has it
gabriel_laddel: you should not have to parse anything - ever
gabriel_laddel: if you are parsing, you're doing it wrong
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell sfate hey.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: (will note, for completeness, that this won't fly on, e.g., embedded chip with 32kB. but most of the usual suspects aren't stuck on one such)
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel perhaps you don't appreciate how deep perl goes, or how unaware perl-people are of their perl-ness.
gabriel_laddel: fuck em?
gabriel_laddel: I mean literally - steal their bitcoin, hack their bank accounts
gabriel_laddel: cause chaos
asciilifeform: 'certain languages support serious programmers, and others don't. e.g., I don't think it is at all possible to become a serious programmer using Visual Basic or Perl. if you think hard about what Perl code will do on the borders of the known input space, your head will explode. if you write Perl code to handle input problems gracefully, your programs will become gargantuan: the normal failure mode is to terminate with no id
asciilifeform: ea how far into the process you got or how much of an incomplete task was actually performed. in my view, serious programmers don't deal with tools that _force_ them to hope everything works.' -- herr naggum who else
mircea_popescu: i think the female reproductive system runs on perl.
mircea_popescu: what now ?
trinque: lotta derps out there that can be taught to better themselves.
trinque: I'm fucking 28 and learning CL *now*
mircea_popescu: i see nobody wishes to engage the cunt problem. but yes, IT DOES RUN ON PERL.
mircea_popescu: and here we are.
gabriel_laddel: in what sense? that it'll accept all sorts of odd inputs?
Pierre_Rochard: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=26-04-2015#1111248 < my former employer, was a great firm pre-1930, now just an extension of USG
assbot: Logged on 26-04-2015 02:51:20; mircea_popescu: what the fuck is deloitte even
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel how familiar with the process are you ? like, for instance, the simple (lol) ShouldAbort() function ?
mircea_popescu: Pierre_Rochard i suppose it's the next head on the chopping block after AA.
gabriel_laddel: I've had sex with a female if that's what you're asking.
mircea_popescu: not at all.
mircea_popescu: think about it : foetuses are sometimes aborted. on the basis of reasons.
mircea_popescu: when ? why ?
assbot: Ernst & Young Settles With New York Over Lehman Brothers Repo 105 Deals - Forbes ... ( http://bit.ly/1HGnlP0 )
mircea_popescu: pure perl.
mircea_popescu: Pierre_Rochard from what i see (and from what i know of these systems) there's periodically going to be a beheading.
asciilifeform tries to picture a variant where 'where, why' is accessible
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it is, you can measure a lot about a pregnancy.,
gabriel_laddel: you're talking about the women in question purposefully aborting her pregnancy?
asciilifeform: - with instruments
gabriel_laddel: or miscarriage?
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel no, no, we're talking about the reproductive system itself.
asciilifeform: sure, fella with microscope can sometimes say why eject button got pressed
asciilifeform: but that isn't negating the 'perliness' of the basic apparatus, no ?
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel trisomies are usually aborted. spina bifida usually not. etc.
mircea_popescu: make sense of it, nobel prize is yours.
gabriel_laddel: yeah, I don't see the analogy to perl
mircea_popescu: really ?!
trinque: that nature is filthy hacks upon hacks?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: pretty sure the example you cited is immunological
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform maybe.
Pierre_Rochard: mircea_popescu: they created PCAOB - para-govt auditor of auditors - to avoid beheadings and only chop off fingers/toes. Beheadings will have to come exogenously. For log, background on lehman accounting fraud: http://drillingthrough.com/lehman/
assbot: Lehman, E&Y, and Repo 105 | Drilling Through ... ( http://bit.ly/1HGnPEP )
asciilifeform: (trisomies trigger tumour response)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform some of them do.
gabriel_laddel: the reason we build abstract machines is because people are not very good at repetitive tasks.
mircea_popescu: iirc they proved some of them actually abord through some oxygenation pathway
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel this is cells.
mircea_popescu: cells are automatons.
mircea_popescu: humans don't enter into it, at that level.
gabriel_laddel: people are machines - but computer programs are not people, nor cells.
mircea_popescu: and it's perl for exactly the specified reason, " the normal failure mode is to terminate with no idea how far into the process you got or how much of an incomplete task was actually performed"
gabriel_laddel: we know how to write computer programs such that you don't need regexes.
gabriel_laddel: if you're /ever/ using them, you're doing it wrong.
mircea_popescu: many more similarities (like a pointed lack of sexprs), but let's keep it simple
mircea_popescu: so you're saying cunts are doing it wrong.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: basic idea, perhaps, is that systems designed 'step at a time' by 'practical types' without any clear line of reason - will converge to resemble meat.
asciilifeform: as per l. lamport's essay
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, idea is that some people who can't even make dragonfly are in a weak position to teach grandmother to suck eggs, as it were.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30000 @ 0.00031795 = 9.5385 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if we get the stochasticity of meat, we also need to have the wide functional state space of meat.
asciilifeform: one without the other - is drowning in shit.
mircea_popescu: that may be. i'm just pointing out that biology offers a very significant challenge to theoretical cs.
mircea_popescu: in the perl aspect of things.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49650 @ 0.0003198 = 15.8781 BTC [+]
gabriel_laddel: This conversation bothers me. We don't understand how to make dragonflies, nor how the reproductive system works. We know how to write computer programs that work - the failing to do the latter correctly is a human failing.
gabriel_laddel: analogy need not enter into the conversation
gabriel_laddel: it isn't necessary.
mircea_popescu: generally when an analogy need not enter into a conversation, it's a sign the conversation's broken.
gabriel_laddel: der fucking nonsense.
mircea_popescu: and mind you, at issue is not whether we do or don't understand how reproduction works.
mircea_popescu: at issue is that we understand enough to know it runs on perl.
mircea_popescu: which means that as long as you live, you will not live in a clean world.
gabriel_laddel: It doesn't run on "perl" "perl" is a well specified computer program. Meat runs another separate well specified meat program.
gabriel_laddel: which means that as long as you live, you will not live in a clean world. << select portions of humanity have, to varying degrees created "clean" computing.
mircea_popescu: take the simple fact that erycridine lactate induces abortion in any trimester, and without exception. if this isn't a regex gone wrong, what is ?
mircea_popescu: ethacridine*
gabriel_laddel: regexes are regexes - nothing elese is.
gabriel_laddel: not everything is the same thing.
mircea_popescu: (and if it were so well specified, we'd prolly know a lot more of it than we do)
mircea_popescu: so you dispute that there's ready biologic equivalents of a regexp match ?
mircea_popescu: you are aware organic molecules are actual strings.
gabriel_laddel: I wouldn't dare draw that equivalence without agreeing on a formal definition for regexes and the process in question.
mircea_popescu: how do you define a string ?
mircea_popescu: (this, incidentally, would be the lisp/perl difference imo. lisp does not have strings, perl does not have sexprs. in spite of pretending on each side)
gabriel_laddel: wtf is this. lisp doesn't have strings?
mircea_popescu: if you think about it, you said so yourself. "if you're /ever/ using them, you're doing it wrong."
gabriel_laddel: my first pass at a definition for a string: A string is a collection of characters from an alphabet.
mircea_popescu: organic molecules pass this.
gabriel_laddel: nah - if you're using regexes you're doing it wrong.
mircea_popescu: that's what strings are. "stuff you use regexps on"
gabriel_laddel: nonsense.
gabriel_laddel: I use strings all the time, don't use regexes
mircea_popescu: you're using fake lisp strings.
mircea_popescu: perl people think they're using "structured data" too.
mircea_popescu: it's all strings, but w/e.
gabriel_laddel: they can't do tree traversals on their "structured data"
mircea_popescu: exaclty.
gabriel_laddel: therefore they suck c0cks
mircea_popescu: and you can't do regexp on your "Strings"
mircea_popescu: therefore...
gabriel_laddel: ah, but I can
mircea_popescu: well, "can".
gabriel_laddel: I don't because it's stupid
mircea_popescu: why do you think THEY don't ?
gabriel_laddel: because they're mentally defective
mircea_popescu: obviously.
gabriel_laddel: (I'm assuming you're saying "why don't you think they don't - do tree traversals")
gabriel_laddel: I should note that "they" (algol programmers) try to add the tree traversal properties of lisp to their languages
gabriel_laddel: in every single language
gabriel_laddel: they all have failed, and will continue to fail
gabriel_laddel: so they waste a lot of effort doing it.
mircea_popescu gets a "so ?" gold on black cardboard card
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39250 @ 0.00032074 = 12.589 BTC [+] {3}
decimation: did I just stumble into an ongoing turing test?
gabriel_laddel: this conversation is going in the direction of "heat death of the universe" so I'll note that companies that use e.g., scala have to hire a lot of people to regin in the complexity inherrent in ALGOL.
mircea_popescu: decimation nah, i'm just being unreasonably heterodox over here.
gabriel_laddel: hence, they waste money
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel this is a very minor point. the chief point, still standing, is that cunts still run on perl. there must be a reason for this.
gabriel_laddel: hence they'll be beaten in the marketplace by yours truly.
mircea_popescu: but even if there isn't a reason for this : it's so deeply baked into the structure of the world, you'll never be free of it.
mircea_popescu: (because cunts obviously aren't free to choose what they use, so the need for perl must be way deeper than that)
mircea_popescu: that's all, no more.
gabriel_laddel: You'll never be entirely free of idiots
gabriel_laddel: that doesn't mean I should stop "butchering slugs"
decimation: how can anyone even make statements about what the female reproductive/baby system is doing without examining the results in each case, in molecular detail?
mircea_popescu: hey, splay that slit! no argument here.
gabriel_laddel: what aesthetic do you wish to live in?
trinque: fast and loose is fine if the product is somewhat disposable?
mircea_popescu: decimation enough to say "it's doing regexp"
mircea_popescu: trinque except the product of reproduction is perhaps the most expensive thing there is
mircea_popescu: if you look in the proper context.
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: oh, btw thanks for your input on my document
trinque: yes, very expensive to the host body while it's being made
mircea_popescu: exactly.
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel sure. which was this ?
gabriel_laddel: I ended up trolling through gov. documents on the yucca mountain facility (I had previously quoted wikipedia)
mircea_popescu: !up gabriel_laddel
gabriel_laddel: anyways, I ran across lots of juicy information.
mircea_popescu: ;;gettrust assbot gabriel_laddel
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user assbot to user gabriel_laddel: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=gabriel_laddel | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=gabriel_laddel | Rated since: Sun Aug 3 11:48:26 2014
decimation: yucca mountain was a terrible idea, in the sense that storing nuclear waste instead of recycling it into fissile Pu is retarded
mircea_popescu: !gettrust assbot gabriel_laddel
assbot: Trust relationship from user assbot to user gabriel_laddel: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 2 via 2 connections. |http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=assbot&to=gabriel_laddel | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/gabriel_laddel/
gabriel_laddel: decimation: well, now it is sitting on-site at the 100 reactor sites across the US
mircea_popescu: that whole yucca mountain thing...
gabriel_laddel: in "temporary storage"
trinque: mircea_popescu: seems like systems where there are a variety of ways to solve problems accept that they don't know the "perfect" way, if there is one
trinque: assuming lack of perfect knowledge having multiple things to try seems appropriate
decimation: mainly because jimmy carter banned recycling because it contained the word 'plutonium'
mircea_popescu: trinque the main problem here is that for a large number of solid considerations, lisp would actually be a much better choice. moreover, the space alf referred to is indeed vast, but the processes narrow. in many spots the whole tree converges to a very very narrow bottleneck.
asciilifeform: <mircea_popescu> that may be. i'm just pointing out that biology offers a very significant challenge to theoretical cs. << i must confess, that i am at a loss as to which aspects of meat we should like to replicate in machines: intransigence? toe fungus? pneumonia? schizophrenia?
asciilifeform: seems like we've achieved a great many of these, in the computer...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i wasn't going nearly as far as any of that.
mircea_popescu: trinque consider the ridiculous happenstance that all foeti have a god damned lizard tail two weeks in.
trinque: mhm, and gills at some point, or proto-gills
trinque: little blockchains themselves
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trinque: the whole of evolution unfolding each time
mircea_popescu: not ~quite~
mircea_popescu: broadly speaking, but that's all.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ... there must be a reason for this. << same reason eagle doesn't have jet with afterburner in his arse
mircea_popescu: anyway i should like to see a schizo computer.
mircea_popescu: could be punishment for the usg twerps. "you now have to program on this"
trinque: I wonder if we'd have done the one with the afterburner having never seen a bird
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's so deeply baked into the structure of the world, you'll never be free of it. << johnson noise, shot noise, etc. are intrinsic to electrical circuit. yet we have to sweat and build whole other box to get pc to cough up random bits.
mircea_popescu: trinque nah, it's not energetically efficient. try and power the jet off the bird's diet.
asciilifeform: because designers did practically nuke the analogue soup. (yes, ram failures, etc. exist.)
mircea_popescu: i have no doubt you have still hope alf :)
trinque: mircea_popescu: right, so we're talking about the difference between systems which try to be general solutions to (not sure how to articulate it) vs specific tools which live in a given niche?
trinque: tools vs general meta-tools or something
mircea_popescu: im not even sure.
trinque: me either, lol
asciilifeform: i just can't help but recall kreinin's piece re: how folks who are asking for meat-like architecture 'whether they want a tool, or electronic best friend or sex partner' and asked whether 'they had tried the selection of naturally-occurring ones first'
mircea_popescu: mind that i am not proposing any change here.
mircea_popescu: i am merely pointing out that the perl-bashing has some serious problems in front of it.
trinque: converation with my biz partner comes to mind where he praised this old DOS point of sale
asciilifeform: nature's criterion of 'works' and mine, i will say, are not at all alike.
trinque: he could enter things like i 52345 s <ent> 3 <ent> and that would add inventory number whatever to the ticket 2 times
asciilifeform: i don't want to buy the office chair that is successful in cheaply making infinite copies of itself into the aeons. not unless it also parks my arse well.
trinque: and he still claims he's faster on that than any micros shit, ncr, or even more "modern" UI
asciilifeform: trinque: this is not a difficult standard to achieve
trinque: sure
trinque: but you could then go "oh but this is not a general interface with concepts applicable to any UI"
trinque: or something
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