Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2015-01-20 | 2015-01-22 →
mircea_popescu: good point.
mircea_popescu: " phantomcircuitDiablo-D3, the real danger here is convincing people who dont truly understand the problem that something is safe which is in fact extremely risky"
asciilifeform is not a rich fellow, and was much poorer still when he read the satoshi paper
mircea_popescu: basically, gavin has pretty much 0 support in -dev.
mircea_popescu: but he's willing to buy people drinks in san juan, who knows, maybe then.
asciilifeform: speaking of satoshi's paper, i learned by accident that someone sells a printed & bound 'collected satoshi crap'
asciilifeform: not incl. the 0.1 source, unfortunately
mircea_popescu: i don't think the 0.1 source was ever actually released
asciilifeform distinctly recalls a tarball with that label
assbot: Original Bitcoin Source Code Archives - - bitcoin trading buy/sell classifieds forum ... ( )
asciilifeform: ^ seems to have it
asciilifeform: i once worked with a fellow who had a poster containing, in reasonably readable print, linux 0.01 kernel.
mircea_popescu: you know, that's the guy that came up with a glbse asset that consisted of buying lottery tickets ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for all i know, it's hitler.
mircea_popescu: but anyway, i rly dun recall, mebbe it was after all.
mod6: lol
mircea_popescu: i had thought it started with 2.something
asciilifeform: 0.1.3 seems to be the earliest mass-circulated version.
assbot: original-bitcoin/src at master · trottier/original-bitcoin · GitHub ... ( )
mircea_popescu: ah ok 1.3
asciilifeform: incidentally, it would be very spiffy if someone here (specifically) has a vintage copy of either of these on his disk, from those days, and would be willing to sign it.
asciilifeform: lottery hitler probably has not the brain mass to doctor his archive, but why leave it to fate.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, re go : you know the only other bitcoin implementation is btcd, written in go ?
mod6: asciilifeform: werd
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there was another, iirc, in c
mircea_popescu: i thought that one died.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i have not tested it
asciilifeform: there is also something that looked, on cursory inspection, quite like a bitcoind, in python
asciilifeform: haven't tried it either.
mircea_popescu: that died a year prior to the cx
asciilifeform: there is even, apparently, a haskell version.
asciilifeform: (haven't tried, ...)
assbot: haskoin/haskoin · GitHub ... ( )
mod6: bitcoin in C is sexy
asciilifeform: now, whether even one of these (or ones not mentioned here) is fit for use in anger, on the battlefield - i cannot say.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62200 @ 0.00045216 = 28.1244 BTC [-] {2}
Pierre_Rochard: “errything fine up there ?” <- debatable, I’ve been studying tax accounting, which can be deleterious to the mind
mircea_popescu: o there he is.
Pierre_Rochard: The point I was trying to make is that Gavinonomics has no notion of demand elasticity for bitcoin transactions
mircea_popescu: how's the "talking sense at redditards" business going ?
Pierre_Rochard: horribly, it’s a particularly terrible form of procrastination
mircea_popescu: it doesn't seem to have much notion of economics in any sense.
mircea_popescu: hehe i hear that a lot.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44800 @ 0.00047758 = 21.3956 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5050 @ 0.00048855 = 2.4672 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: ;;seen bitstein
gribble: bitstein was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 5 days, 8 hours, 59 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: <bitstein>
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> davout here's the story : big bombing here in the 70s, at the jewish center. dozens of victims. << was this a proxy attack on israel?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes for all i know it was just overflowing idiocy.
ben_vulpes: it being the jewish center?
ben_vulpes: the bombing?
mircea_popescu: well both.
mircea_popescu: there's no discernible benefit to it or anything.
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> any reason to doubt that the usg exchanges and other scum are 'on board' (for what that's worth) ? << it is going to be *fascinating* to see how coinbase et. al are going to handle this
mircea_popescu: coinbase made its round, so it may have a little leeway.
mircea_popescu: !up coderwill
ben_vulpes: << could such a block get 50 confirmations and a reorg happen later? that's not even 10 hours, right?
assbot: BitBet - Bitcoin main net block size to increase in 2015 :: 0.13 B (11%) on Yes, 1.07 B (89%) on No | closing in 9 months 4 weeks | weight: 94`308 (100`000 to 1) ... ( )
ben_vulpes: sure enough, brief discussion in teh lawgs
ben_vulpes: then off into a discussion about bitbet mathematical/statistical arcana
ben_vulpes: god i love you guys
mircea_popescu: did i miss teh log ?!
ben_vulpes: lol did you miss it
assbot: Logged on 08-01-2015 22:31:37; mircea_popescu: "Gavincoin orphan chain to reach 50 blocks before being abandoned" is kinda not the same as "Blockchain will increase"
mircea_popescu: that's ... two weeks ago ?
ben_vulpes: memory loss setting in already?
mircea_popescu: no but i was expecting today's log.
mircea_popescu: i thought you were up to date!!1
ben_vulpes: anyways
mircea_popescu: anyway, read today first, get back to 8th after.
ben_vulpes: no no i went searching for that
ben_vulpes: i'm just sitting here imagining the ways gavincoin could play out
mircea_popescu: dude im tired.
ben_vulpes: reading logs
ben_vulpes: 500 behind
ben_vulpes: you're tired?
mircea_popescu: yeah now i see what you mean :)
mircea_popescu: took me a while.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12100 @ 0.000465 = 5.6265 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes: <Luke-Jr> [] not sure why this patch is reducing set_lg_max.. << lol i love the stream of consciousness as Luke-Jr reads through source
assbot: The Bitcoin Consensus Red Herring | Conformal Systems, LLC. ... ( )
mircea_popescu: guy actually has a point.
mircea_popescu: "There is currently no way to guarantee that any two versions of Bitcoin software, whether they are two different versions of Bitcoin Core, two different versions of alternative implementations, a version of Bitcoin Core versus a version of an alternative implementation, or even two copies of the same version of Bitcoin Core built with different compiler versions are in exact consensus agreement. Doing so is incredibly
mircea_popescu: difficult and borders on impossible. The issue is implementation independent."
mircea_popescu: "The current solution as proposed by Bitcoin Core is, when you get right down to it, “let’s just be really careful with code changes and hope for the best”. There is no real disaster recovery or prevention plan. Yes, there is ongoing work to split the consensus critical bits out into a library and I think this is a good idea and am glad to see it happening. However, it still does nothing to address the real fun
mircea_popescu: damental issue stated above nor does it provide disaster recovery or prevention."
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, gavin's top priority is... you've guessed it.
mircea_popescu: every single version to date broke something.
mircea_popescu: usually not that big. sometimes fucking ridiculous (like the one time when they changed versioning)
mircea_popescu: and yet the "uncertaininty" is generated by imaginary problems. not by this.
mircea_popescu: sort-of like the man who gets drenched in volcanic eruptions every single week, worrying about meteors falling.
ben_vulpes: changed versioning?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes recall when blocks went from v1 to v2 ?
ben_vulpes: i don't know if i was around at that point.
ben_vulpes: wasn't even keeping logs at that point
mircea_popescu: sometime in 2012 an uncontroversial fork was put in, so that sometime in 2013 blocks are mined with version 2 instead of version 1.
ben_vulpes: lol so then fork?
mircea_popescu: except for no particular reason the check was against a signed value (the very careful part), which inadvertently reduced a scarce resource
mircea_popescu: no, just narrower header.
ben_vulpes: got a writeup somewhere? i don't understand the implications straight off.
assbot: The Bitcoin Consensus Red Herring | Conformal Systems, LLC. ... ( )
mircea_popescu: pity conformal isn't better known.
assbot: BitcoinStats ... ( )
ben_vulpes: that is a lot of log
ben_vulpes: and i want to nap
mircea_popescu: << guy that thinks he invented bitcoin
assbot: Adam Back (@adam3us) | Twitter ... ( )
mircea_popescu: wholla lotta dumb in his funny looking head otherwise.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50000 @ 0.00048078 = 24.039 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19800 @ 0.00048078 = 9.5194 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46850 @ 0.000465 = 21.7853 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 22 @ 0.11000003 = 2.42 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: The 100 Chain Certificate Experiment | Jim Shaver ... ( )
mats: dos via cert chain replacement
assbot: Oracle to fix 167 vulnerabilities, including a backdoor-like flaw in its E-Business Suite | Computerworld ... ( )
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell mike_c published
gribble: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: O.o a suprising voice objects to 20MB trending towards infinity
assbot: BitcoinStats ... ( )
assbot: BitcoinStats ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62800 @ 0.00045832 = 28.7825 BTC [-] {2}
punkman: "For one thing, doctors were upset because Semmelweis' hypothesis made it look like they were the ones giving childbed fever to the women. And Semmelweis was not very tactful. He publicly berated people who disagreed with him and made some influential enemies. Eventually the doctors gave up the chlorine hand-washing, and Semmelweis — he lost his job. Semmelweis kept trying to convince doctors in other parts of Europe to wash with chlorine,
assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23550 @ 0.00048537 = 11.4305 BTC [+]
assbot: The Doctor Who Championed Hand-Washing And Briefly Saved Lives : Shots - Health News : NPR ... ( )
punkman: "1700 private jets expected to Davos in Switzerland to discuss climate change at World Economic Forum"
BingoBoingo: !up Vexual
Vexual: 1700 private jets, fucking hell, the hipocracy
Vexual: id fly em all economy to somewhere and put em on a dying freighter
Vexual: way cheaper
Vexual: wait, autopilot to switzerland?
punkman: irc would've been cheaper for sure
Vexual: hell yeah
punkman: although good opportunity to pull the 500eur stacks out of the swiss deposit box
Vexual: hey, you can spend a bin laden on the train
assbot: Revealed at Last: Magic Leap's Vision for Augmented Reality, in 32 Patent Illustrations | WIRED ... ( )
assbot: Home: Meta Augmented Reality ... ( )
punkman: can these people think of a single non-retarded use case?
punkman: "Meta makes you a real-life Tony Stark." - CNN
Vexual: wtf is a totem?
Vexual: sounds racist
Vexual: ;;google magic leap totem racist
gribble: Review: Wonderfalls: “Totem Mole” · TV Club · The A.V. Club: <>; Lovecraft Apologists and the World Fantasy Award - Jim C. Hines: <>; Stuff Black People Don't Like - SBPDL: White Men Can Run: (1 more message)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68125 @ 0.00049059 = 33.4214 BTC [+] {4}
Vexual: meanwhile google is full aware the patent selss to city planners until its nearly up, then it goes into happy meals
Vexual: but as non retarded uses go, playing ar doom in the office sounds pretty good
punkman: they are already working on teh ads
assbot: AR Marketing Conference 2015 | AR Marketing ... ( )
punkman: !up Vexual
assbot: When Science Fiction Becomes Reality: Rebuilding the Berlin Wall with Augmented Reality - SPIEGEL ONLINE ... ( )
Vexual: is this why glass gied? noones got a set, so noone makes anthing?
Vexual: berlin things pretty neato
punkman: the glass tech wasn't that good imo
Vexual: did you try it?
Vexual: was the guts in the glasses?
punkman: yeah but you needed an android to go with it
Vexual: fucked optics and 10 people had one
punkman: I wanna try the spaceglasses though
Vexual: how does it work?
punkman: they have Steve Mann on the team, if anyone knows how these things can work, it's him
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 18 @ 0.11000002 = 1.98 BTC [-] {2}
punkman: girl tried some Oculus devkit, said it was pretty fun
Vexual: space glasses is a transparent lcd?
punkman: yeah so you can overlay stuff
Vexual: does it play office doom?
punkman: mebbe
Vexual: ok take my money
punkman: their demos are stupid though
punkman: chess, pff
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 49 @ 0.10427005 = 5.1092 BTC [-] {13}
Vexual: i dont chess
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 61 @ 0.10097768 = 6.1596 BTC [-] {5}
Vexual: i fthey start doing pixies in trees silk road 17 will be out of business
BingoBoingo: !up Vexual
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14100 @ 0.00047541 = 6.7033 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: felipelalli: fixed
felipelalli: BingoBoingo: thank you!
Vexual: felipelalli> where are you from?
BingoBoingo: !up Vexual
felipelalli: Vexual: Brazil.
Vexual: any comments on this shit in ba? argentina is not far away
felipelalli: Vexual: are you from ARG? What "shit"?
Vexual: nisman, im from australia
felipelalli: Vexual: 80% don't know what bitcoin is and 90% of the remaining 20% think it is a scam. Is that your question?
Vexual: not really, but good answer
Vexual: rio then?
Vexual: surely not san paulo
assbot: My life as a DEA Special Agent and a born-again Christian ... ( )
Vexual: Degenerian
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6550 @ 0.00046748 = 3.062 BTC [-]
nubbins`: so the wood guy is found to have been using stolen artwork for his engravings
nubbins`: lifted from deviant art and shutterstock
nubbins`: my sides
nubbins`: !up Vexual
Vexual: i can't even
Vexual: whats the wood guy?
Vexual: does he carve a potato print in a slab of cedar?
BingoBoingo: Basically
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14600 @ 0.00046642 = 6.8097 BTC [-]
assbot: Under Mark Karpeles bitcoin did 3,000,000%. Under VC capital, merchant adoption, bitcoin bowl it did -80%. : Bitcoin ... ( )
assbot: Scam Warning - Paul Revere ... ( )
Vexual: is that supposed to ba a table leg? wehre sthe table?
Vexual: lathe fail
Vexual: laquer is sus
davout: that reddit stuff is pretty funny
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30867 @ 0.00047572 = 14.684 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: The-Feminist-Software-Foundation/ToleranUX · GitHub ... ( )
Vexual: mmm pussyware
assbot: Re-instated a feminist .gitignore · 743e3c0 · The-Feminist-Software-Foundation/ToleranUX · GitHub ... ( )
Vexual: fuck im not reading all that
jurov: butbut.. you must be aware by all means that '"Logic" is years and years of Patriarchal justification — pure toxicity'
Vexual: looks like bullshit anyway
punkman: " if a single ls doesn't use up at least 50% of installed RAM then it is condoning the toxic culture of fat shaming."
jurov: Only womyn should be allowed to `look`. [Cishet male]( nerds should not be allowed to use their oppressive gaze upon the beautiful visages of strong and independent womyn. 1 in 4 women are [psychologically raped by visual contact]( in their lifetime when walking down the street.
jurov: ha. only trannies shall cast a look upon the beautiful visages of strong and independent womyn!!!1
jurov: um, from that follows womyn should always wear niqab in cisgendered society, no?
jurov: !up Vexual
Vexual: ty sir
BingoBoingo: jurov: Logically, but they's prefer just gouging eyes to prevent looking
jurov: that isn't eye rape, too?
Vexual: depends how deep
BingoBoingo: Or just do like the Vonnegut handicaps story
Vexual: do tell
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87200 @ 0.00046254 = 40.3335 BTC [-] {2}
Vexual: banksa has little claim to the azalea, iggy, is part aboriginal
Vexual: now thats a story
BingoBoingo: Vexual: asciilifeform linked it a while back. basically able people must wear handicaps to make everyone equal.
BingoBoingo: Stuff happens
Vexual: that sounds splendid
Vexual: ill read it
chetty: <BingoBoingo> Vexual: asciilifeform linked it a while back. basically able people must wear handicaps to make everyone equal.//only other solution is just kill all the handicaps
Vexual: were talking literal retards?
BingoBoingo: chetty: Or... embrace inequality...
Vexual: lol
Vexual: well said
Naphex: a new generation ready for realitytv
assbot: MasterChef Junior Season 3 Episode 1 - The Class of 2015 - YouTube ... ( )
Naphex: :o
Naphex: omg..
chetty: <<< reading various stuffs here on the great blockchain 'fix', I wonder whatever happened to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
Vexual: they got the same guy from ironchef, with a labotomy
nubbins`: psychologically raped by visual contact?
nubbins` raises an eyebrow
nubbins`: BingoBoingo did you see the part where people found all the sources for his stolen clipart? :D
Vexual: you havent seen my art yet
nubbins`: i lel'd
BingoBoingo: chetty: But that goes against killing it by "fixing it" you know... in the way you kill a chanpion dog's breeding value bu fixing it
BingoBoingo: nubbins`: Deviantart?
nubbins`: Vexual i know, send me some
nubbins`: BingoBoingo deviantart and shutterstock (!)
BingoBoingo: Naphex: Yeah, now they hook em early
Vexual: nubs now yove comissioned it, ill do something good
nubbins`: sweet. if it's rad, let's work out a trade
chetty: BingoBoingo, oh yeah maybe Gavin does need some fixin
Naphex: i'm just watching if the lil ones loose a finger :D
nubbins`: art for books
Naphex: those chef knives be cutting deep into 6y/o'ds lol
BingoBoingo: Naphex: I remember reading about one doing just that last season
Naphex: BingoBoingo: one thing i'd agree, its better with kids then with idiots lol
Naphex: maybe that the next thing
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62300 @ 0.00045478 = 28.3328 BTC [-] {5}
BingoBoingo: I dunno. I think there's some value in seeing how the adults "good enough to make the show" end up failing because of Dunning Krueger.
BingoBoingo: !up Vexual
Vexual: aim for the nuts
Vexual: thats how you fake pussyware
Vexual: short and sweet
danielpbarron: i honestly can't tell if that feminist OS is meant to be serious or satire
Vexual: im pretty sure its satire
Vexual: !s earache my eye
assbot: 0 results for 'earache my eye' :
Vexual: ;;google earache my eye
gribble: Cheech & Chong - Earache My Eye - YouTube: <>; Cheech & Chong - Earache My Eye {full version-1974} - YouTube: <>; Earache My Eye - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <>
assbot: theymos comments on Gavin: Twenty Megabytes testing results ... ( )
BingoBoingo: Theymos doesn't get to have much of an opinion, but at least he isn't gavin.
Vexual: its up to the miners, most do small blocks, so i dont see it happening soon
felipelalli: I found a good idea make something implemented just to "wake up" after 2 years.
felipelalli: but I also found too aggressive the numbers of Gavin. And why do you guys hate Gavin?
felipelalli: Here in Brazil we still suffer with 1~5MB/s connection, depending on how the blocks increase many Brazilians and many ppl of other poor countries will be out soon.
BingoBoingo: Well, Gavin seems to want to actually kill Bitcoin with his ridiculous exponential growth stuff.
felipelalli: I guess isn't his intention, but good intention hell is paved.
BingoBoingo: There's already "startups" foaming at the mouth to use the block chain as file storage.
felipelalli: One thing I have not studied deeply, but why every node need to have all the data? Okay there enough overlap, but really all data?
jurov: felipelalli: how else you'll verify transactions?
felipelalli: chapter 7, isn't that proposal possible?
jurov: felipelalli: one, that would prevent bootstrapping from genesis block
jurov: two, under gavins proposal, the pruned db, would grow boundlessly too
jurov: and it makes no difference with network usage. even in "rich" countries with gigabit connections, uplink is usually much slower
jurov: now i have 40/40 , but back when i had 10mbit uplink, bitcoind sometimes saturated it
jurov: when someone decided to pull blockchain from me
punkman: 10mbit up? I wish
felipelalli: I have less than 1mbit up
felipelalli: with Gavin proposal, bitcoin core should be very simplified (like an "amateur" version) connected to trusted (few?) full nodes. It can work but it affects the decentralization, is that right?
jurov: yes it's likely to end up so
nubbins`: i only have crappy 30mbit up
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55800 @ 0.00047573 = 26.5457 BTC [+] {3}
nubbins`: 75 down ;/
felipelalli: only the very wealthy have this internet here in BR HUE.
nubbins`: it's about $100/mo here
nubbins`: which i think is a bit on the expensive side
nubbins`: !up Vexual
nubbins`: get a pgp key already
felipelalli: lel it is porn to pay it for Internet
Vexual: and a 5 dollar paypay?
jurov: vex has pgp key, just got downrated :)
Vexual: ive got a bitcoin key
Vexual: kako got fucked off with the niki minaj
Vexual: and his rating hold weight
Vexual: also im still learning
punkman: tails got that gpg built-in
punkman: and assbot doesn't do bitcoin keys anyway
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23600 @ 0.00047011 = 11.0946 BTC [-] {2}
Vexual: are you suggesting that if i have a pgp key n wot kako will like my occasional music?
Vexual: i dun see it
jurov: maybe if you implement ratelimiter
Vexual: shit ive been ratelimiting for 6 months
jurov: or rather evolve one lol
nubbins`: what?
Vexual: but the sydtem works, its good
nubbins`: ;;gettrust assbot vexual
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user assbot to user vexual: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: | WoT data: | Rated since: never
jurov: he's regged under some other nick
Vexual: im not authed
Vexual: muxne
jurov: ;;ident Vexual
gribble: Nick 'Vexual', with hostmask 'Vexual!~amnesia@gateway/tor-sasl/vexual', is not identified.
nubbins`: ;;ident muxne
gribble: Error: I am not seeing this user on IRC. If you want information about a registered gpg user, try the 'gpg info' command instead.
nubbins`: ;;gettrust muxne
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user nubbins` to user muxne: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: | WoT data: | Rated since: Sun Jun 22 00:11:14 2014
jurov: you see, he's got it covered :)
Vexual: assbot is everywhere
nubbins`: ;;rate vexual 1 not of this place
gribble: Error: For identification purposes, you must be authenticated to use the rating system.
Vexual: muxne
Vexual: good luck
nubbins`: ;;gettrust assbot muxne
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user assbot to user muxne: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 3 connections. Graph: | WoT data: | Rated since: Sun Jun 22 00:11:14 2014
punkman: you'll need !rate
nubbins`: now there's a !rate?!
nubbins`: mi mente ;(
punkman: !gettrust assbot muxne
assbot: muxne is not registered in WoT.
nubbins`: too many wots
Vexual: ;;gettrust muXne
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user Vexual to user muXne: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: | WoT data: | Rated since: Sun Jun 22 00:11:14 2014
nubbins`: not enough keys
Vexual: gribble went perl
nubbins`: kakobrekla why the hate ;/
Vexual: i spammed his chan
Vexual: is fair
nubbins` wanders over to kako's console and types /ignore <random nick>
Vexual: fucks the logs like ruin tho
nubbins`: what next, you gonna disable right-click on the log?
Vexual: nah imma draw a dino
nubbins`: make it so my back button doesn't work? 8)
Vexual: he asked me nicely first, i must admit
Vexual: and i've been less than repentant
Vexual: we did decide on a rate
BingoBoingo: !up Vexual
Vexual: !s 2million
assbot: 3 results for '2million' :
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6070 @ 0.00048179 = 2.9245 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: O.o A new arrest!
BingoBoingo: Two and a half months late!
Vexual: thats the theme
Vexual: seems hypocritcal with forrest gump leadeing the prosecution
assbot: 4 Years in Prison for BitInstant Exchanger Who Helped Silk Road - Crypto News 24/7 – Bitcoin News ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68800 @ 0.00048596 = 33.434 BTC [+]
Vexual: ross is prolly guilty of something, but he deserves a free trial
Vexual: the hitmet sory is admissable
Vexual: all these idiots taking a deal
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9424 @ 0.00048596 = 4.5797 BTC [+]
Vexual: they get him for malware by using malware, that should be thrown out of court right there
Vexual: wtf do i care tho
BingoBoingo: Well, what if they come for spider venom next?
assbot: backdoored rsa key generation ... ( )
assbot: Backdoor in a Public RSA Key / Information Security / Kukuruku / Technology Hub ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27600 @ 0.00049642 = 13.7012 BTC [+] {2}
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: pity conformal isn't better known. << how so? ben_vulpes has referenced them a lot over the past two years. they are making me want to learn Go.
assbot: Illinois Says Rule-Breaking Students Must Give Teachers Their Facebook Passwords | Motherboard ... ( )
thestringpuller: ^- i wonder if this will hold precedent in making people give up private keys of any kind
BingoBoingo: The particular school district mentioned is disturbingly close.
BingoBoingo: ^ wall penetrating radar
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20048 @ 0.00049009 = 9.8253 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: jesus sifting from all these offline messages left by people who believe enough in the gavincoin to want to buy it for .75 bitcoins each.
mircea_popescu: apparently they'll want to change bitcoin to gavincoin 1:1 later on, but they don't want to change it at a 25% discount today.
mircea_popescu: fatlogic.
BingoBoingo: Maybe they aren't sure enough yet that there will be a Gavincoin given -dev doesn't seem keen on his stuff.
mircea_popescu: so poorly managed, bitcoin core.
thestringpuller: lol. i'm the only anarchist in the office.
thestringpuller: trying to find another one.
mircea_popescu: roughly in the position of a hunting party that's out there building sandcastles and collecting flowers.
thestringpuller: too bad conformal is written in Go
mircea_popescu: nah, writing everything in c++ is dumb.
BingoBoingo: Yeah they need to find another sporting venture, because it is perfectly fine to be a fishing party while sitting around drinking beer.
mircea_popescu: now that's a point.
kakobrekla: 1. otc order book is dead, 2. noone is taking offer seriously, 3. everything else is delusion
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla yeah, and they all work because 4. none of these derps actually matters in bitcoin.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: nah, writing everthing in c++ is dumb. << wasn't bitcoin-qt 0.1 in Visual C++? that was even worse
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25950 @ 0.00048323 = 12.5398 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: "oh i have 50 btc in a wallet somewhere, i contributed 5000 lines of code to bitcoin core that will have to be taken out later at considerable expense and i go to all th conferences if some scammer is paying the airfare (coach)"
thestringpuller: i remember opening source code back in 2010 on my machine, and seeing everything chmod 777
mircea_popescu: this is what is supposed to impress me ?
BingoBoingo: I mean I have no problem with killing animals for food, but I prefer fishing to hunting because fishing has better complimentary activities you can multitask with it.
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller monolitic c at least had some rationale back in 1980. but c++ is not c, and for that matter the year's not 1980 either
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i don't know any fat hunters. i know precious few slender fishermen.
thestringpuller: well anything you do in C++ you can do in C. like that song (anything you can do I can do better)
mircea_popescu: this is doubtful, but i'll let asciilifeform argue it.
BingoBoingo: Here I tend to see lots of fat hunters.
thestringpuller: BingoBoingo: This is also the rationale behind a baseball game on a hot summer day. Grrr...we need to go to one this ear
kakobrekla: ultra retarded on at least 2 levels
mircea_popescu: yeah, totally need more adoption so the various scammers with bootstrap websites can burn more noobs.
thestringpuller: ^- this is becoming pervasive in corporate world too
thestringpuller: marketing design sector was told, "You need to incorporate more photography"
thestringpuller: "in the website"
kakobrekla: how do they know for sure its gonna go up and how do you save if its gonna go up if you borrow now i dunno is the loan fiat based ?
thestringpuller: "Why so we can use more bandwidth?"
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla it's btcjam : if you don't simply forget all about your website account, you can always just not pay later on.
kakobrekla: aha hehe
mircea_popescu: but yeah, pretty epic.
mircea_popescu: atually ima do a write-up :D
davout: thestringpuller: i thought visual c++ was just an ide
mircea_popescu: nah it's a language
danielpbarron: mircea_popescu> apparently they'll want to change bitcoin to gavincoin 1:1 later on, but they don't want to change it at a 25% discount today. << should better offer it at 25% over, otherwise they are admitting their coin has the lower value
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron that's what im doing.
mircea_popescu: pay 750 bitcoin today, receive 1000 gavincoins.
danielpbarron: ok so make it, pay 1000 bitcoin today, get 750 gavincoin later; that way theirs is framed as the more valuable one
mircea_popescu: you do that ? i'm curious to see this one.
assbot: Security Day 2015 - Lille 1 ... ( )
danielpbarron is just being silly
thestringpuller: davout: i guess more the windows bindings. Like MFC etc.
thestringpuller: davout: i use VC as a catch all like VB
davout: ah, so it looks like c++ with a bunch of extra packages
thestringpuller: yea. original bitcoin source code has tons of that in it
thestringpuller: i think asciilifeform submitted patch to gut all of it out.
artifexd: 6 days of logs... smh
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53866 @ 0.00049795 = 26.8226 BTC [+] {2}
nubbins`: oh my god, what if that wood collector guy illegally imports wood and Blazedout419 was working undercover with customs?!
BingoBoingo: nubbins`: Link?
danielpbarron: didn't WC brag about having access to illegal woods?
BingoBoingo: davout: Also different standard libraries. Microsoft Visual X language is almost always different from X proper.
davout: BingoBoingo: yeah, so a different language for all practical purposes
BingoBoingo: davout: Yeah. Even different in the most basic things, fucking iostream.h
nubbins`: BingoBoingo j/k
nubbins`: i know he's not a shill and he's not a fool, but beyond that... shrug
nubbins`: ;;rated Blazedout419
gribble: You rated user Blazedout419 on Sun Mar 2 12:59:46 2014, with a rating of 2, and supplied these additional notes: trusted trader.
assbot: 4Chan’s Moot Now Forcing Mods To Sign Legal Contract That Reveals Their Identity ... ( )
BingoBoingo: nubbins`: He's kind of anti-kako. While anything kako calls scam is scam andything Blazedout419 gravitates towards tends to burn him.
nubbins`: but kako's so friendly.
danielpbarron: he probably wanted to show off having lots of BTC to his forum buddies / that coupled with the "oh you accept bitcoin? let me shower you with undeserved business" mentality
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: that coupled with the "oh you accept bitcoin? let me shower you with undeserved business" mentality << tends to be what burns Blazedout419
kakobrekla: maybe he was reading #b-a on how art keeps getting record high prices and battles inflation and though he was getting a piece of hedge
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: regarding paygrade << have you ever seen Inside Man?
mircea_popescu: davout i don't like so much about your blog the fact there's no clear mention of the date.
davout: mircea_popescu: "Cette entrée a été publiée dans Bitcoin le janvier 21, 2015"
mircea_popescu: damn i missed that.
mircea_popescu: i dun like so much about my eyes how they miss things :D
mircea_popescu: "The fundamental pain point here, is that Gavin insists on everyone being able to get in, instead of allowing a sane transaction fee market to emerge, by letting the blocks actually fill-up."
thestringpuller: davout: makes me want to pick up french again.
davout: it's true it's not very clear though, being at the bottom
thestringpuller: so I can read Snowpiercer in french.
mircea_popescu: here's the thing : the vc circus has created an entire culture of these idiots. "grow fast make no money sell out"
mircea_popescu: maybe this has merits as a website develoipment paradigm
mircea_popescu: dubious.
davout: also "le janvier 21, 2015" isn't correct french :/
mircea_popescu: it CERTAINLY has no value as a bitcoin development paradigm, because well... BITCOIN IS NOT FOR SALE.
davout: thestringpuller: what's snowpiercer?
mircea_popescu: not in the sense where some vcs come on later, pat us on the head, give each a car and wipe us out.
nubbins`: snowpiercer, lel
mircea_popescu: bitcoin is here to make those vcs beggars.
thestringpuller: its called Le Transperceneige
thestringpuller: in franche
thestringpuller: france***
chetty repeats self "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
davout: oic
nubbins`: interestingly, they choose to waste their fuel on locomotion rather than as a heat source
nubbins`: because if all that's left is a train, you better believe we're gonna make it run!
thestringpuller: nubbins`: the train runs on perpetual motion donchakno?
mircea_popescu: "<gavinandresen> Ah— so you’re saying we should decrease the 1MB limit, so there are higher fees and miners make more money?"
mircea_popescu: such facetious bs.
mircea_popescu: "i want to tear down this wall". "why ?" "it opresses me". "the wall keeps the outside out" "OH SO YOU ARE SAYING WE SHOULD PUSH IT FURTYHER IN ?"
mircea_popescu: no you fucking idiot that there's no other.
mircea_popescu: you are ill qualified to as much as change a fucking version in the bvlocks, let alone the database.
mircea_popescu: stop pretending like you can push walls around and go take your ritalin.
mircea_popescu: jesus fuck.
assbot: Al Qaeda's YouTube guide for jihadists | Daily Mail Online ... ( )
mircea_popescu: actually i suppose thois belongs there.
mats: an idiot's guide to opsec.
mircea_popescu: davout "Votre commentaire est en attente de validation." lmao.
mircea_popescu: webfrench is such lulzfrench
davout: c'est pourtant du français correct :)
davout: this is actually lulzier -> "Fièrement propulsé par WordPress"
davout: "Proudly propelled by wordpress"
davout: i guess the translator ran it by several actual frenchologists
thestringpuller: gotta make sure french language stays pure against all the hoodlums and their slang
davout: fuck oui
mircea_popescu: propulse lol
mircea_popescu: does that stricly mean kinetic ?
davout: yes
davout: actually the people from Québec might be even more hardcore protectors of french purity than the people from france
davout: their accent and some of their expressions are extremely cute tho
mircea_popescu: << someone put it up on reddit ? i don't recall if dman was ever there.
assbot: Gavineries | ... ( )
davout: mircea_popescu: dunno, didn't do it myself, figured it'd be too good for them and get downvoted anyway
davout: thestringpuller: ty, let's see how that goes
davout: thestringpuller: also link?
mircea_popescu: davout yeah but why should you be spared the sort of idiocy living there.
mircea_popescu: davout anyway, where was this convo ?
mircea_popescu: seems kinda bizarre gavin still pretends like he's had a public discussion about this but so far has not quite got his courage up enough to bring his hairball of non sequiturs, wild jumps and logic holes over here.
davout: mircea_popescu: private, he pm'd me on btctalk after seeing me comment on the fork off thread
mircea_popescu: well, tell him he has a chance to be heard, and learn exactly why he is wrong and generally grow as a person.
thestringpuller: upvote for visibility etc. etc.
thestringpuller: interested to see low paygraders try to interpret it
thestringpuller: aka redditards
mircea_popescu: paygraders eh ?
mircea_popescu: there's two kind of idiots in this world : the retrograde, and the paygrade.
mircea_popescu: "I’m waiting for somebody to notice us greedy early adopters get a free ride on transaction fees and complain....."
mircea_popescu: that's what "free ride" is now. having built value over time is a "free ride"
mircea_popescu: how dumb does one get ?
mircea_popescu: hey gavin ? YOU ARE GETTING A FREE RIDE. you're pretty much the only one. you're a middling software engineer that is STILL leeching some historical happenstance.,
thestringpuller: this is probably why rappers retire after 30
mircea_popescu: nothing about your own intellect, experience, competence or otherwise merit justifies me even knowing your fucking name. you're nobody in the plainest sense, i can throw a rock in any town in america and probably hit two of you!
thestringpuller: (excluding Jay-Z)
davout: "if you want to come in #bitcoin-assets and argue a bit your proposal, a bunch of folks would be interested" <<< let's see how that goes
davout: "can’t right now, have a lunch meeting. Happy to another time"
mircea_popescu: no it's perfect, i have a lunch meeting too.
mircea_popescu: ima be back in ~3 hours.
mircea_popescu: would have been a shame to miss all this.
davout: 3 hour lunch? what are you? french?
chetty: 3 hours is a short quick lunch in Argentina
davout: "gonna get me some subway, see you tomorrow"
thestringpuller: they have subway in france?
davout: the perfect duration for a meal is when the end of the previous one overlaps with the beginning of the next one
thestringpuller: i thought the french frowned upon "american" food
davout: yeah, we have subway
davout: thestringpuller: yes they do, but they love it
thestringpuller: Opps nvm.
mike_c: hmm.. "<sipa> justanotheruser: but control of coins != ownership of coins"
mike_c: bitcoin-dev is confused about some things.
mod6: o.O
assbot: Must-read: Transcript of block-size discussion with Gavin : Bitcoin ... ( )
mike_c: i suppose his point is along the lines of "mpex controls the coins it is holding, but account holders own them".
mike_c: which isn't really true. and the fact of that will become interesting when mpex takes a side on the hard-fork.
undata: mike_c: it's that watered down socialist meaning of "own" where it's abstract, not "this is under my control"
undata: "I own this house."
undata: no, the bank and state do
asciilifeform: !up diametric
diametric: trying to figure out why assbot can't find my key on
asciilifeform: kakobrekla ^
kakobrekla: does it take like while before it says it cant find it ?
kakobrekla: like=while
kakobrekla: a while*
kakobrekla: like 60 sec, or is it instant
diametric: it instantly says it can't find it
kakobrekla: try in 30 min will you, and if it doenst work then ill do it manually or smth
kakobrekla: i noticed when i was coding that keyservers tend to go down a lot
diametric: will do
davout: "Gavin's patience. Wow."
davout: "that's the main thing i'm constantly impressed by, his demeanor is exactly right for the position he's in. he's a role model to us all, a modern day gandhi so to speak. ;)"
BingoBoingo: And like Ghandi he will try to ruin a good thing.
BingoBoingo: May Gavin be less successful
davout: "You are 100000% correct. It's funny how easy it is to spot a statist who thinks everything should be controlled instead of letting the market do its job."
assbot: Brilliant post by /trilema.
BingoBoingo: loling at the name tweeting trilema
asciilifeform: !up diametric
diametric: tried doing it myself again, came back saying it can't find my fingerprint.
diametric: I'll give it some more time.
diametric: nubbins`: I've thoroughly enjoyed the woodcollector posts.
nubbins`: tyvm, glad you finally got an account ;D
diametric: nubbins`: are you actually going to post a video to prove a point to one of his shills/
nubbins` shrugs
asciilifeform: !up gavinandresen
gavinandresen: howdy y'all
gavinandresen: I came here so you can tell me how I’m going to ruin bitcoin (again…)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu awake ?
davout: gavinandresen: hello
assbot: Logged on 21-01-2015 16:54:23; mircea_popescu: ima be back in ~3 hours.
felipelalli: gavinandresen: when was the first time that you have "ruined" bitcoin?
gavinandresen: felipelalli: when we did BIP16 to make multisig wallets easy to deploy
gavinandresen: … that was a soft fork, not a hard fork, but it still caused people to accuse me of trying to destroy Bitcoin
davout: felipelalli: that was a soft fork
ben_vulpes sniffs
ben_vulpes: i smell drama
felipelalli: thank you
ben_vulpes: is a soft fork not a breaking of bitcoin in some way?
gavinandresen: a soft fork means miners must upgrade, or their blocks will be rejected.
kakobrekla: ben_vulpes for drama you need GA and MP present at same time.
gavinandresen: a hard fork means everybody running a full node must upgrade, or they will be on a different chain
davout: ben_vulpes: a soft fork is making the set of valid blocks smaller, a hard fork is the opposite
gavinandresen: MP will bring all the drama :-) I try hard to be drama-free.
ben_vulpes: ah, so a breaking of the protocol
gavinandresen: ben_vulpes: yes; a soft fork makes the protocol more strict. You have to hard fork to make it more lenient.
felipelalli: davout: nice explanation. It gives a good article in
ben_vulpes: well i can tell you right now there is zero support around here for changing the protocol in any way.
felipelalli: increase the 21M max coins is possible through a hard fork?
assbot: Proposed DERSIG BIP ... ( )
ben_vulpes: around *here*, gavinandresen.
ben_vulpes: not wherever you people get together and wank about "innovation" in the blockchain
gavinandresen: okey dokey, then we might not have much to talk about if you want to stick with OpenSSL bugs that were included in the protocol by mistake.
ben_vulpes: the topic under discussion is the moronic megablock shit, not signature rules.
ben_vulpes: "oh look we're also talking about improving things over there so you may as well roll over on the megablocks issue"
ben_vulpes: no. not happening.
felipelalli: gavinandresen: theymos said: << (...) Make the change now, but have it take place at a particular date or block number 2 years in the future. Then when the change actually happens, everyone will already be updated because almost no one uses 2-year-old software. Yes, 2 years is a long time, but we'll survive. >> is that possible and why it is a good or bad idea?
gavinandresen: felipelalli: that’d be a fine way to roll out the change; I think gmaxwell and sipa prefer that plan.
ben_vulpes: !gettrust assbot felipelalli
assbot: Trust relationship from user assbot to user felipelalli: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. | |
kakobrekla: that like "dont worry we have 2 years to 'fight'" and then "o shit did we miss it?" 2 years later.
felipelalli: gavinandresen: do you prefer different? If yes, why?
ben_vulpes: !rate felipelalli -1 snr penalty
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
asciilifeform: the philosophy of the slow poisoner, vs. a fellow willing to knife in broad daylight
davout: gavinandresen: "okey dokey, then we might not have much to talk about if you want to stick with OpenSSL bugs that were included in the protocol by mistake." <<< actually i distinctly remember mike hearn telling me how that particular bug was part of the protocol and how it somehow justified not putting any effort towards actually specifying anything, in a spec, not in code
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.felipelalli.-1:d220de3c0270b6e3f3f923fa6dbfd6daa164792bb1919eccdca66d6aedf87c4c
assbot: Successfully added a rating of -1 for felipelalli with note: snr penalty
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64000 @ 0.00047807 = 30.5965 BTC [-] {2}
ben_vulpes: !down felipelalli
kakobrekla: well at least down works.
davout: that escalated rather quickly
ben_vulpes: obvious plant is obvious
asciilifeform: !up diametric
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: have you met ?
assbot: ..::[ The Bitcoin Foundation ]::.. ... ( )
ben_vulpes: in any event, gavinandresen, there'll be no more forks from you. you blew it back in the day, and you lost the initiative on this one months ago.
Pierre_Rochard: my main disagreement is on the economics side, you say “ Limit the number of transactions that can happen on the Bitcoin blockchain, and instead of paying higher fees people will perform their transactions somewhere else.”
ben_vulpes: horseshit.
ben_vulpes: there is only bitcoin.
Pierre_Rochard: My response to that is two-fold: if maximizing revenue to miners is our goal, then shifting marginal demand to substitutes is fine.
ben_vulpes: there is only bitcoin, and if one cannot afford the miners fees for inclusion in a block, one does not need to transfer bitcoins enough.
Pierre_Rochard: Second, there is distance between the total transaction costs of Bitcoin vs the substitutes. So there’s inelasticity in demand
Pierre_Rochard: So here’s my hypothesis: if we allow the network to hit the block size limit, then we’ll see the transaction fee revenue growth *accelerate*, up until the point that substitution begins happening in earnest, then the fee revenue growth will *decelerate* or stall.
ben_vulpes: let's at least hit the steady state behavior before starting to diddle with important economic variables like block size.
davout: Pierre_Rochard: shut up and stop making so much sense
Pierre_Rochard: that would indicate that demand is inelastic, and it would tell us where the upper bound on bitcoin tx fees roughly is
Pierre_Rochard: all else equal
ben_vulpes: yeah, and again we're at the "snapshot of a dynamic thing
ben_vulpes: " state
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> [] nah, writing everything in c++ is dumb. << write it in every language, discover interesting bugs.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: I think you’re confusing the limit miners self-impose with the hard-coded upper limit
Pierre_Rochard: Now this part may be controversial for some members of b-a, but it’s at the point where fee revenue growth decelerates that the block size should be increased *marginally*, if the goal is to maximize fee revenue
davout: gavinandresen: why would miners impose a self limit?
gavinandresen: davout: today, because bigger blocks take a while to propagate.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I think the limit that miners self-impose would not hold. I think we see that today
ben_vulpes: Pierre_Rochard: you assume some kind of "goal", and that there's a "we" with it.
asciilifeform: !up gavinandresen
Pierre_Rochard: !up gavinandresen
davout: isn't there a plan to make block propagation O(1) by using headers-first?
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: what effect do you suppose your enlarged blocks would have on the number of operating full nodes ?
gavinandresen: davout: when that is fixed by protocol changes, they will have some minimum costs to processing transations plus a little profit
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62448 @ 0.00048429 = 30.2429 BTC [+] {2}
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: see my technical roadmap post for what needs to be done to increase number of full nodes
davout: gavinandresen: you're not really answering the question regarding headers-first
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: if there are no network protocol changes, then we’re in trouble, because number of full nodes may continue to decline
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: do you intend to donate hard disks to everyone running a full node ?
gavinandresen: davout: sorry, missed, the question, real-world distraction…
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: or how otherwise compensate for a 20-fold growth in storage requirement
gavinandresen: davout: oh, the IBLT stuff? yes, that’d make propagation O(1), and that’s what I mean when I say “when that is fixed by protocol changes"
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: storage is not the bottleneck/cost, bandwidth is.
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: again, go read the technical road map post, section on pruning the chain
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: i have read it.
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: and disagree with the entire concept of 'pruning'
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: okey dokey.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: if Satoshi hadn’t slapped on a 1MB blocksize limit, would you be lobbying for a hardfork now to impose one?
gavinandresen: … execuse me, soft fork....
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: yes, I would
artifexd: !s rsa backdoor
assbot: 5 results for 'rsa backdoor' :
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: ok, exactly what would you propose?
asciilifeform: artifexd: the linked article was a very basic example of 'kleptography' (see our old thread)
asciilifeform: artifexd: there are considerably subtler ways to diddle rsa key generation.
ben_vulpes: this is a distraction and poor logic.
ben_vulpes: there is a 1mb limit.
ben_vulpes: we are not considering counterfactuals.
artifexd: Yeah. I found the article through my own education. I wanted to see if it had already been discussed in here.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: that we don’t increase the limit until we see what happens to total fee revenue growth after a few months of full blocks
assbot: The Myth Of The Megabyte Bitcoin Block ... ( )
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: the 0.10 release’s wallet code includes floating fees, so over the next couple months we should get a much better idea of what is happening fee-wise.
Pierre_Rochard: then let’s stay there for six months to collect the data
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: the notion that the wallet code should be responsible for setting fees is utter braindamage.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: what information will we get that will influence how large to make blocks?
ben_vulpes: in fact the entire wallet model is completely broken.
ben_vulpes: the moronic quest to make the thing occupy as little space on disk as possible precluded you people from selecting a queryable db
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: … I misstated: that will influence the maximum possible block size....
ben_vulpes: and so, you had to track "relevant transactions" in the wallet.
gavinandresen: ben_vulpes: “patches welcome” Alex Morcos has a patch pending with better fee estimation code.
ben_vulpes: then you got hosed with the whole "change address" debacle.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: they go from little space, to infinite space, as circumstances dictate
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: fee revenue growth, if it accelerates then demand for btc transactions is relatively inelastic, the point at which it declerates indicates where substitution starts happening. If it’s right away, then you’re right on the economics. If its after a period of faster growth, then we can see what bitcoin transaction fee the market will bear before switching to substitutes
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: i'm pointing out that the only acceptable patch for wallets is total removal.
ben_vulpes: and our stake in the ground (0.5.3) is our indictment of everything that your people have done for the past umpteen months.
ben_vulpes: it's unnecessary and i reject it.
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: we have here an entire project dedicated to undoing everything you and your associates have ever done to bitcoin.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: but why would we want to hit the “then substitutes start happening” when we’re in Bitcoin’s infancy?
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: and we have the guns, coin and code on our side.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: Seems to me it is better to do everything we can to encourage widespread adoption right now.
ben_vulpes: that is to say, "god".
asciilifeform: what, precisely, are these 'substitutes' ?
asciilifeform: i'd much like to know
asciilifeform: cowrie shells? reichsmarks? u.s. dollars ?
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: because the substitution would just be happening at the margin
asciilifeform: or scamchains
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: adoption is for the masses. i don't give a single fuck about the masses. bitcoin is not for them now, nor will it ever be.
asciilifeform: ('schelling point' dictates that there can be precisely one blockchain.)
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: But we’d get probably at least six months, maybe a year or two of substitution because it takes time to roll out a hard forking change
asciilifeform: again, substitution with what ?
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I think Bitcoin’s overall value proposition is so overwhelming that what’s hampering Bitcoin adoption is not tx fees, it’s just the Lindy effect of it being around long enough
ben_vulpes: want to talk about what's hampering adoption?
ben_vulpes: stale wallet backups that your asshats are responsible for.
ben_vulpes: non deterministic transaction generation.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: okey dokey. What if you’re wrong?
ben_vulpes: KV stores for a complex data set.
ben_vulpes: the list goes on.
ben_vulpes: and you insist on "adding features" instead of fixing your mistakes.
gavinandresen: Anybody be offended if I ignore ben_vulpes? distracting me….
ben_vulpes: ha yeah please
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: then we see an acceleration of adoption of an altcoin / altcoins in general and react accordingly
ben_vulpes: don't address any of the *only valid points* being made here.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: But you just said you want to let fees go up high enough so, at the margin, some people ARE turned away.
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: if you only answer one of my question, pray tell, what are the 'substitutes' ?
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: where might one find some.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: that’s right, that’s the signal to increase the block size limit
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: So, lets say we do see fees rise. How far do we let them rise? Who decides?
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: i can't afford 'mercedes' so my 'honda' is a fairly good substitute for the machine. but where might one obtain a cheaper, more plentiful ersatz substitute for bitcoin ?
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: you cannot construct this conversation on the foundation of fees. you cannot possibly know how fees will behave in steady state or in perpetually inflating block size state.
ben_vulpes: you've lost all support for these large blocks in -dev
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: at some point they stop rising because they’re too high for the marginal transactor
ben_vulpes: you never had any support in -assets
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: substitutes for Bitcoin are altcoins, sidechains, off-chain transactions, credit cards, wire transfers…..
ben_vulpes: give. up.
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: except that these systems are not substitutes for bitcoin.
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: they don't do the same job.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: in theory the miners would decide, in practice the core devs
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: none of the items you mentioned is a stable, noninflationary, decentralized store of value.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: unfortunately, the experience for the marginal transactor is terrible: their transactions just never, ever confirm. Their coins get tied up…
asciilifeform: turd is not a substitute for sausage, despite the topological similarities.
asciilifeform: regardless of any perceived shortage of sausage.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: if wallets could deal with that I’d be more open to running the experiment, although I still think it is a terrible idea to shut out ANY reasonable use cases at this early stage of Bitocn’s life
asciilifeform: !up diametric
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: nobody who matters gives a shit about the marginal user.
ben_vulpes: and their transactions *don't* get tied up forever.
ben_vulpes: eventually they mature and are prioritized.
ben_vulpes: this is FUD, plain and simple.
ben_vulpes: fucking drop it.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: You started with a premise that I reject, by the way: I do not believe that a goal should be to maximize miner revenue
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: I believe the goal should be to maximize the value of Bitcoin for everybody
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I think that our disagreement on that premise precludes agreeing on anything downstream of that
ben_vulpes: <gavinandresen> Pierre_Rochard: I believe the goal should be to maximize the value of Bitcoin for everybody << you're fired.
ben_vulpes: again.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: you’re probably right. Are you a miner yourself?
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2015 22:33:39; kakobrekla: how do other envision the future when reward goes towards 0. either a btc is worth half a planet or the fees amount per block go up a few orders of magnitude or network is dead
kakobrekla: which ?
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I am not. I just see a “too low” long term hash rate as the greatest risk of ruin Bitcoin faces, and it ought to be minimized before all other considerations
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: what do you think of my argument that hash rate and fees are apples and oranges? That people will substitute away from fee-paying transactions to other solutions that use the block chain, which means trying to maximize fees means no guarantee that there will be enough hash rate to secure the chain?
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: 'other solutions that use the block chain' ? please elaborate.
kakobrekla: >altcoins, sidechains
asciilifeform: scamchains.
gavinandresen: not altcoins— centralized services like Coinbase. Or sidechains.
asciilifeform: how many need to implode before folks open a game theory textbook and understand that the correct number of blockchains is one ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2500 @ 0.00049015 = 1.2254 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: and what kind of brain damage does it take to see a centralized whatever as any kind of functional substitute for bitcoin ?
kakobrekla: coinbase and the like can be *poof* gone in one day
kakobrekla: too slow i am, this cake is hindering me
ben_vulpes: !up lobbes
lobbes: gavinandresen: Why are you so set on this 'widespread' adoption notion? It is never going to happen
ben_vulpes: !up gavinandresen
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: If I understand your argument correctly, you’re saying that the elasticity of demand is so great that fee maximization will be insufficient anyway, so try finding another solution now. That’s a pretty good argument, I think we should see what happens to fee revenue growth to validate it. If, say, the average fee goes up to 0.0004 btc and doesn’t budge from there, but anecdotally we hear that
Pierre_Rochard: off-blockchain transactions are taking off, then your argument will have won the day
asciilifeform: i can almost imagine some fellow advocating the urgency of bringing down megatonnes of gold from the asteroid belt, because failing this, a great many 'gold users' may take to using paper certificates 'as substitute'
lobbes: as others have stated; bitcoin is not meant for the 'masses'
ben_vulpes: lobbes: tell him who said it, he's ignoring me.
asciilifeform: i suspect that he is ignoring most or all of us.
ben_vulpes: !gettrust assbot gavinandresen
assbot: Trust relationship from user assbot to user gavinandresen: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. | |
kakobrekla: and i wasnt even insulting.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: but my intuition tells me such substitution won’t happen at such a low fee
asciilifeform: i, for one, would simply like some non-weasel answers to a few basic questions.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: this is why you kept getting sucked into arguing with Robert Viragh over plainly stupid shit.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: ok. I’d like to brainstorm more about how you would set the maximum block size— I don’t want the developers setting it every two months, but I dont’ see a way to make fee revenue per block drive it (because the real-world bitcoin exchange rate is so variable)
davout: gavinandresen: "oh, the IBLT stuff? yes, that’d make propagation O(1)" <<< so with that, there's no network bottleneck anymore, at least no real incentive for miners to keep blocks small, right?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i do believe i succeeded in ultimately pulling his wings off.
ben_vulpes: !rate gavinandresen -5 broke bitcoin in too many ways to mention. inquire within.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.gavinandresen.-5:1b1cb1a93eadfd534bec6d5cdc3328d057c6baa2e6e97b7bfa34e5157384cc73
assbot: Successfully added a rating of -5 for gavinandresen with note: broke bitcoin in too many ways to mention. inquire within.
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: ok, answers to your questions: I don’t know how many need to implode. And I don’t know what kind of brain damage.
ben_vulpes: !down gavinandresen
kakobrekla: cmon he is still emitting
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: srsly
kakobrekla: !up gavinandresen
ben_vulpes: grarrghragr
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu hasn't even opened up yet
gavinandresen: davout: Miners would only have the meta-incentive of “we can collectively maximize revenue if we make blocks THIS big”
ben_vulpes: let him up the spamgun
gavinandresen: davout: I have no idea if the would cooperate enough to make that happen.
davout: gavinandresen: i'm completely with ben_vulpes "the notion that the wallet code should be responsible for setting fees is utter braindamage." on one hand it's not the wallet responsibility, and on the other hand that has nothing to do with the protocol
gavinandresen: davout: ok, “patches welcome"
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: it's just a basic blood pressure/cortisol reduction measure
davout: gavinandresen: “patches welcome" <<< i don't use your wallet tbh
gavinandresen: davout: great! your wallet can do whatever it likes with respect to fees.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: the only way I see is to regularly test at what tx fee the substitution begins happening, and increase it at the margin (say 20%) whenever the top percentile of fees starts hitting it. Yes, that would involve perhaps semi-annual block size limit increases and an element of judgement. I still see it as a better solution than a much-too-high limit or a contrived algorithm
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: so you admit that there is not, nor can there be, a non-fraudulent 'substitute' for bitcoin? that altchains, state-minted fiat, cowrie shells, are not in fact equivalent ?
Pierre_Rochard: increase it at the margin (say 20%) < increase the block size limit
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 339942 | Current Difficulty: 4.397166205608958E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 340703 | Next Difficulty In: 761 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 13 hours, 18 minutes, and 49 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 42292830486.1 | Estimated Percent Change: -3.81799
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: huh? a sidechain to which you transfer BTC value would be a non-fraudulent substitite.
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: it is fraudulent by virtue of not being the one and only genuine bitcoin. the schelling point.
asciilifeform: and by being crafted to give the opposite impression.
asciilifeform: (shit is not a fraudulent form of gold, but 'fool's gold' may be put to use as such)
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: can you define “much too high limit” ?
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: one where there is no competition among transactors to get into a block
undata: right, one would have to reach that state to know
asciilifeform: the whole concept of a 'sidechain' is an elaborate chumpatron.
Pierre_Rochard: that is, competition that would at least attempt to maximize transaction fee revenue
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: fee revenue measured in real prices, yes?
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: … because driving up real Bitcoin prices is why I think we should do everything possible to encourage widespread adoption
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: that’s actually a very interesting question because we currently live in a world where miner liabilities are in fiat prices, but in the future that may not be the case.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: what even is a sidechain?
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: another question: why precisely do you wish to rescue those who might be tempted to use 'substitutes' for bitcoin ?
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: I don’t want to rescue anybody, I want as many people as possible to Get the Bitcoin Religion! Can I have an AMEN?
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: right, that goes back to bitcoin’s adoption relative to other altcoins. when we see a divergence then we know there’s substitution going on
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: understand that you are now speaking to a number of people who do not believe inclusiveness itself to be a virtue. a steak eaten by a hundred thousand flies is 'more inclusive' than same stake being eaten by a man.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: I think if you went to a VC with a business plan of “We’re going to raise prices until we start losing customers” the VC would tell you that is a huge mistake if you’re a high-growth thing-a-ma-bob
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: in your mind, it is a religion? as in, the gods whispered to you that you must bring as many unbelievers as possible into the fold ?
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: I’ll use <just joking> tags next time
ben_vulpes: <gavinandresen> asciilifeform: I don’t want to rescue anybody, I want as many people as possible to Get the Bitcoin Religion! Can I have an AMEN? << good fucking god
asciilifeform: We’re going to raise prices until we start losing customers << what do you suppose the business model of 'aston martin' is ?
xanthyos: the bible warned us about you gavinandresen
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I agree, but in this case I think Bitcoin’s competitive advantage is 100x, and transaction fees are a relatively small part of that, so if they were $0.50 instead of $0.05, adoption rate would decrease by let’s say 0.01%.
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen is clearly unfamiliar with the pricing model of every luxury good ever.
gavinandresen: Ok, if y’all are interested in keeping Bitcoin an exclusive little club… then okey dokey, we have a fundamental difference of opinion on where the project should go.
Pierre_Rochard: so it’s immaterial, yet that transaction fee revenue is super-important for the customers to know, long term this is a viable enterprise that can sustain itself
lobbes: all you have to do is look at to see that getting clueless people involved for the sake of 'because' just leads to more scamming, and more ignorance
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: i find it odd that you are interested in inclusion on the user end (transactions) but not the node end
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: how are 20MB blocks a mechanism of 'inclusion' for folks who wish to continue running full nodes ?
asciilifeform: full nodes - as in, history-preserving.
asciilifeform: no 'pruning' bullshit.
danielpbarron: gavinandresen, what did satoshi write in the very first block??
gavinandresen: I’ve gotta go. Pierre_Rochard, nice chatting with you.
xanthyos: nice timing
xanthyos: faker
davout: lol
danielpbarron begins writing his indictment
mod6: bailiff, bring the witness back to the witness stand
davout: such convo, much mess, very lol
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen is clearly unfamiliar with the pricing model of every luxury good ever. < this
Pierre_Rochard: Bitcoin is a ferrari being sold for $10. Increasing the price to $100 will not deter buyers
davout: poor log readers...
kakobrekla: the thing is he sees silly-con valley and think the ways of VS are go.
asciilifeform: hence ben_vulpes's astute observation, being that the spirit of mr. spam walked again from the grave
asciilifeform: it is as if all tentacles of the beast spoke with a single voice.
asciilifeform: not any kind of surprise, incidentally, to a student of history (all soviet bureaucrats likewise spoke in one voice.)
davout: "so far I’m not impressed with the quality of the conversation in #bitcoin-assets....."
kakobrekla: !up diametric still no luck ?
kakobrekla: well it was noisy.
kakobrekla: not in the quality sense but quantity.
mod6: yah. srsly.
Pierre_Rochard: well if he disagrees on the premise that being fort knox is more important than being a rural walmart then there’s not much to discuss
asciilifeform: it still escapes me, what he was hoping to achieve by coming here.
mod6: davout asked him to come here so he could 'chat' with mp
asciilifeform: even though we did not get to see this, it is not difficult to imagine how the conversation may have went.
asciilifeform: folks who live by weaseling, smokescreen, evasion, tend to have just a few tricks up their sleeves.
asciilifeform: not necessarily on account of being stupid. a flunkie, lying from a position of desperation (our friend) - is overcome by anxiety, which inhibits creativity. on the other hand, an official liar, lying from a position of brute strength (e.g., keith alexander), is hobbled by complacency.
jurov: he's genuinely believing bitcoin needs to be here for every man, woman and child
diametric: kakobrekla: no luck, still saying it can't find my fingerprint.
kakobrekla: fucker.
asciilifeform: jurov: yes, while somehow (by divine intervention?) remaining 'bitcoin'
asciilifeform: 'every man, woman, child' in america, africa, mars, alpha centauri - 'deserves' - a 'free' - mercedes, ph.d., three quintillion zimbabwe dollars...
asciilifeform: this gets old, it does.
davout: i would've loved seeing him actually elaborate on asciilifeform's questions
asciilifeform: and i'd love to fly on an f-35 with gigantic, fart-flaming pigs instead of engines.
Pierre_Rochard: not to mention, the transaction fee _today_ is $0.02. Where is every man woman and child? Why are they not taking advantage of this amazing opportunity??
davout: shut up
Pierre_Rochard: clearly there are much more important factors to adoption than the transaction fee
asciilifeform: Pierre_Rochard: because mr. obama has not handed each of them three quintillion bitcoins yet.
punkman: need more bitcoin bowl ads!
punkman: is very important
Pierre_Rochard: asciilifeform: why did he not announce that last night? why does he hate the middle class so?
davout: the idea that there exists somewhere a magical bitcoin alternative, suffering from none of its shortcomings, towards which everyone would flow is retarded
asciilifeform: davout: the idea that there is, was, or can be, an actual substitute (what is the substitute for electrical current ?) - ...
Pierre_Rochard: davout: I agree, the moat between bitcoin and the “substitutes” is _enormous_
asciilifeform: Pierre_Rochard: there are sound mathematical reasons to believe that there cannot be a stable substitute in any meaningful sense.
asciilifeform: Pierre_Rochard: see mircea_popescu's articles (ask him which, when he reappears) for elaboration.
Pierre_Rochard: asciilifeform: preaching to the choir, but a “substitute” in the economic term is the opposite of a “complement”, not something you necessarily consider on equal footing
chetty: its ok, they can just pass a law to change the maths to what they like
asciilifeform: Pierre_Rochard: there is nothing, and good reason to think there cannot be, anything which even rises to the level of an ersatz.
asciilifeform: but if a skateboard with a missing wheel is a substitute for a 'boeing' - then, sure.
chetty: (all you have to do to make such a law work is send the gasenwagen for anybody that knows any maths)
asciilifeform: chetty: ''Winston made another convulsive movement. This time he did not say anything. O'Brien continued as though answering a spoken objection: 'For certain purposes, of course, that is not true. When we navigate the ocean, or when we predict an eclipse, we often find it convenient to assume that the earth goes round the sun and that the stars are millions upon millions of kilometres away. But what of it? Do you suppose it is
asciilifeform: beyond us to produce a dual system of astronomy? The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them. Do you suppose our mathematicians are unequal to that? Have you forgotten doublethink?' (1984)
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2014 13:57:10; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: remember the story about gorby and andropov?
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2014 13:57:29; asciilifeform: g: 'show me the real budget.' a: 'you're asking too much. that's off limits to you.'
asciilifeform: the funny part is that the sc4mz0rz are stuck keeping two sets of books.
asciilifeform: and are perpetually tempted to skip the other, honest set, entirely
asciilifeform: when they do - curtain call.
BingoBoingo: !up bitcoinmani
BingoBoingo: !up STRML1
BingoBoingo: !up gabriel_laddel
asciilifeform: !up diametric
BingoBoingo: !up felipelalli
BingoBoingo: !up teek
asciilifeform: diametric: your key works now ?
diametric: yeah
diametric: for some real reason it wasn't importing it for the first time correctly, kakobrekla had to manually import it
diametric: now i'm good
diametric: real..i mean weird reason.
davout: diametric: this new assbot is a total scam
BingoBoingo: !up napedia
ben_vulpes: it's downright suspect that mircea_popescu goes to lunch and gavinandresen shows up
davout: ben_vulpes: it's downright suspect that it took you so long to come to this conclusion
ben_vulpes: fu davout
ben_vulpes: i'm submitting builds to apple
ben_vulpes: trying desperately to eke out food credits over here
ben_vulpes: i can't spot *every* scam
BingoBoingo: !up STRML1_
ben_vulpes: my new title is going to be "systems and app store submission engineer"
ben_vulpes: xcode "code signing" is hilariously opaque
ben_vulpes: contains "fix issue" buttons
ben_vulpes: who wants to "fix issues" related to keys?
ben_vulpes: my keys "have issues"? get fucked!
davout: ben_vulpes: my worst nightmares are those i'm forced to use xcode
davout: *where
kakobrekla: wtf is xcode even
ben_vulpes: kakobrekla: apples proprietary "integrated development environment" for "objective c"
kakobrekla: sounds great
thestringpuller: ben_vulpes: it's not just fo objective c
thestringpuller: you need xcode to run build essentials on make
thestringpuller: aka gcc and friends
asciilifeform: gcc << nope
asciilifeform: they ditched gcc.
davout: kakobrekla: the IDE where folders don't actually create folders on disk
davout: thestringpuller: s/gcc/llvm/
davout: it's a fucking symlink
thestringpuller: davout: i see
thestringpuller: gcc --version
thestringpuller: Configured with: --prefix=/Applications/ --with-gxx-include-dir=/usr/include/c++/4.2.1
thestringpuller: Apple LLVM version 6.0 (clang-600.0.56) (based on LLVM 3.5svn)
thestringpuller: Target: x86_64-apple-darwin13.4.0
thestringpuller: Thread model: posix
davout: "you want to organize your code with folders? fuck you, i'll store them randomly and index them in some massive xml turd"
davout: "you want to track your code on git and code with other folks? fuck you, i'll make this massive xml piece of shit completely unmergeable"
thestringpuller: personal experience davout ?
davout: thestringpuller: yeah. needless to say the experience was short.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: "would you like a mac or win machine?" "You mean which two bowls of shit would I like to eat?"
thestringpuller: which of the two*
ben_vulpes: davout: oh yeah don't use the layout engine
kakobrekla: you guys dont survive without apple turds?
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: i think ben_vulpes writes softs for apple's stuff commercially ?
kakobrekla: well hence the question
kakobrekla: if he doesnt survive otherwise
thestringpuller: davout: at what point does this ruby thing start to grow on me?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: others write the softs
ben_vulpes: i derp through apple's code signing shitshow so that they can focus on writing moar softs
davout: thestringpuller: i don't know man, who am i to know your personal tastes? :-)
ben_vulpes: <ben_vulpes> my new title is going to be "systems and app store submission engineer" << asciilifeform
davout: thestringpuller: what are you using it for?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: aha.
davout: thestringpuller: ruby can be extremly confusing, especially if you use some weird proprietary dsl someone forces on you
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i also unload the dishwasher in the morning and turn the lights off at night.
kakobrekla has leds, can just leave em running.
davout: !up STRML
STRML: davout: Thanks
davout: yw
thestringpuller: davout: i'm using it for web apps at work. not really a web stack developer, but it's not as bad as php but still doesn't taste good.
STRML: I echo your frustration with ruby. It's a nightmare trying to figure out some obscure part of the capistrano or chef DSLs
STRML: all the confusion and unfamiliarity of a new programming language without any of the benefits
thestringpuller: it's easier to debug, but so is python in the same context I guess?
davout: STRML: yeah, dsl's can be a massive pain
STRML: I'm sure they were meant to make things easier but it never quite ends up that way
davout: thestringpuller: i don't really know python so i can't really comment
ben_vulpes: it's just java
STRML: python is nice to debug... java too
ben_vulpes: for people with silly hair
davout: ben_vulpes: how do you know?
STRML: even JS isn't so bad to debug. better than php
davout: STRML: dsl's get much much easier when you're proficient with the language
davout: thestringpuller: what framework are you using?
ben_vulpes: davout: well i've written java, i've written ruby, and i've had extensive interactions with the relevant "communities" (although only my local java "community")
assbot: freenode: frequently-asked questions ... ( )
davout: ben_vulpes: i meant "how do you know about my haricut?"
ben_vulpes: lol well rubby haircuts are normally done by the hair wearer
ben_vulpes: "why are your bangs off center"
thestringpuller: davout: sinatra wasn't bad. now I'm learning rails.
davout: ben_vulpes: kek
davout: thestringpuller: i like sinatra, it's real simple, and there's very little magic
davout: i kind of dislike rails, too fat, too clunky, unless you have something that really fits the rest paradigm
STRML: BingoBoingo: Thanks
davout: thestringpuller: i really like eventmachine
assbot: And Gavin moves on to the dark side. The Bitcoin project is officially hijacked pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43315 @ 0.00049152 = 21.2902 BTC [+] {2}
BingoBoingo: nubbins`: Nice video
nubbins`: not every shill gets a shirt
BingoBoingo: !up grave
thestringpuller: davout: do you like the french electronic music scene?
thestringpuller: aka justice, daft punk, et. al?
davout: justusranvier: in your article you shouldn't be reasoning on the cost of including a transaction in a block as (cost of one block / number of transactions) but you should reason on the marginal cost of adding a transaction to an already existing block that i'm currently mining
davout: also you can't really have the market price according to supply and demand when the supply's pretty much infinite for all practical purposes
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81000 @ 0.00050193 = 40.6563 BTC [+]
davout: thestringpuller: i'm not really such an electronic music guy
davout: i liked daft punk's first albums tho
davout: i'm more of classical music and jazz guy
thestringpuller: jazz you say? :D
thestringpuller: I fucking love Jazz.
davout: last 'electronic' music i got into was birdy nam nam
davout: what kind of jazz?
thestringpuller: All kinds everything from Oscar Peterson, Art Tatum, Dave Brubeck, Dizzy, Coltrane.
thestringpuller: I love Lee Morgan, such an epic history to him.
thestringpuller: Mingus is cool as fuck too.
thestringpuller: how bout you?
davout: thestringpuller: i'm grabbing you something
mircea_popescu: !up bitcoinmani
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu!
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: you missed all the fun
mircea_popescu: what fun is that ?
davout: mircea_popescu: lol yes
ben_vulpes: roasting gavinandresen
mircea_popescu: haha wait, soi he had a lunch meeting except once i also had one his was cancelled ?
ben_vulpes: p much
mircea_popescu: a well. i guess bravery is not a silicon valley virtue.
asciilifeform: shillicon valley
mircea_popescu goes to check teh logs.
davout: thestringpuller:
davout: thestringpuller: sinatra cover by biréli lagrène
mircea_popescu: mats: dos via cert chain replacement << this http-SECURE thing is getting lulzier and lulzier
davout: justusranvier: especially considering that block propagation is soon to be O(1)
thestringpuller: davout: luck be a lady tonight. hehe.
thestringpuller: !s from:gavinandresen
assbot: 59 results for 'from:gavinandresen' :
BingoBoingo: !s turd*
assbot: 794 results for 'turd*' :
mircea_popescu: punkman: "For one thing, doctors were upset because Semmelweis' hypothesis << yup that's a recurring topic here.
thestringpuller: i figured it out! gavinandresen and mircea_popescu are the same person!
thestringpuller: cause they are never in same room at same time
thestringpuller: conspiracy solved
davout: genius
assbot: Logged on 21-01-2015 01:56:34; mircea_popescu: right about at the time they tarred and feathered that asinine idiot who said they should wash hands
thestringpuller: open and shut case johnson, sprinkle some crack on him and lets get out of here
jurov: they happen to be in two rooms at the same time
jurov: or mircea is capable of bilocation?
asciilifeform: he fork()s
mircea_popescu: slandeur
jurov: hope he reaps his zombies
davout: jurov: he keeps bragging about bicopulation
mircea_popescu: davout bicopulation is what that deer in the middle's doin'. ain't me!
jurov: ;;ud bicopulation
gribble: Google found nothing.
jurov: sorry mircea, davout coined it first
BingoBoingo: !up devthedev
mircea_popescu: so i coin it biggest!
BingoBoingo: devthedev: What is this about the head of 'Muricas other socialist party opening session with an Islamic prayer?
mircea_popescu: punkman: their demos are stupid though << yeah they had no idea how to sell that thing.
mircea_popescu: nubbins`: lifted from deviant art and shutterstock << are the da starving artists going to get a cut of the 14k ?
mircea_popescu: i see Blazedout419 ain't answering my q from yest ;/
mircea_popescu: !up Blazedout419
mircea_popescu: assbot: Under Mark Karpeles bitcoin did 3,000,000%. Under VC capital, merchant adoption, bitcoin bowl it did -80%. : Bitcoin << that post has a core of point in it. if it weren't wrapped in redditard retardation / karpeles bs, it'd almost be worth making.
kakobrekla: myea bitpay would do better if they just deleted their wallet
asciilifeform: one of the alchemical powers of idiots is the ability to transform theoretically good points into, well, this
assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( )
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, VCs have been doing appalingly poorly in bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: mostly because bitcoin does not reward their "get big fast" pump and dump scam.
mircea_popescu: maybe it's time they fold and just take their subervient place in the ecosystem ?
BingoBoingo: Well generally they tend to raise dollars and burn them. Or in BitPay's case start with Bitcoins and then burn those.
mircea_popescu: there's nothing wrong with humility if pride just means you lose money.
asciilifeform: VCs have been doing appalingly poorly << this assumes that their objective was to do well in the usual, commercial sense
thestringpuller: BingoBoingo: well they don't burn btc really...
thestringpuller: i don't think they are allowed to hold btc as assets, i dunno.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this assumes they are what they claim to be.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: something that takes an ever rarer class of chump to believe.
BingoBoingo: thestringpuller: Well ESPN says they paid ESPN in BTC
mircea_popescu: not a matter of chumpness tho. suppose dude rings your doorbell dressed as a car mechanic. "yes ?" "hello i'm the pizza delivery". "you don't seem to have any pizza ?" "ha-ha! fooled you! i'm only SAYING im pizza delivery"
mircea_popescu: "well fuck you then ? not like i care eiter way ?"
davout: thestringpuller: why wouldn't they be?
thestringpuller: BingoBoingo: yea but from what I can gather (i am no expert), would be written as an expense
thestringpuller: as all their liabilities are covered as fiat, so I assume assets are handled sameway
mircea_popescu: davout because idiotic accountantlogic.
thestringpuller: ^- CFO's fault
mircea_popescu: assbot: The-Feminist-Software-Foundation/ToleranUX << lmao this shit better be parodic.
thestringpuller: there's a lot wrong there, but my theory is VC's won't let them hold btc like other btc companies
davout: mircea_popescu thestringpuller the accountant can account for the value paymium's coin in whatever fiat he fancies, he can go fuck himself before we sell it
mircea_popescu: davout have you spent any time in teh us corporate environment ?
mircea_popescu: because it is a sort of insanity that can not readily be grasped from outside.
davout: mircea_popescu: ic
thestringpuller: davout: yea. p. much. Then VC comes in and says, "You may have this much btc on book at anytime" or I guess CFO or whatever. I dunno, I'm not an accountant.
thestringpuller: smickles where r u
davout: thestringpuller: i have already heard that from potential investors, these were shown the door
thestringpuller: ah so theory holds some water.
thestringpuller: i knew I wasn't cray cray
devthedev: BingoBoingo: What is this about the head of 'Muricas other socialist party opening session with an Islamic prayer? << It makes my stomach turn
davout: thestringpuller: yes it does, i have heard that kind of bullshit first hand
BingoBoingo: devthedev: Well you spotted it, you can tell the story...
mircea_popescu: davout there's a large chunk of facetious asshats who hate bitcoin just as much as the next guy whose unearned position it threatens. but they figure they get further with a spoonfull of honey than a barrel of vinegar, and so will make this sort of claim.
BingoBoingo: What did the leader of America's other Socialist party do?
Adlai had a big tussle with a business associate about his (the other guy's) emphasis on "pitching bitcoin" to investors
mircea_popescu: that they're "investing", that they wiosh to "drive adoption", that generally they're only trying to help.
Adlai: whereas my stance was that not pitching bitcoin filters out the people to whom bitcoin needs to be pitched
mircea_popescu: they're trivially identified in the field by the shockingly unhelpful nature of their helpings,
asciilifeform: 'investing' << 'embrace, extend, extinguish'
mircea_popescu: and by the incredible tenacity they put into keeping it that way'
devthedev: John Boehner opened a house session with a prayer to Allah.
mircea_popescu: so it's not really a very functional strategy.
mircea_popescu: point in case of this matter, once gavin is questioned as to why exactly he wants to do x, and he immediately and seamlessly moves into "oh, so what's the right value, so you want to do X' ??" it is clear that he is not in fact interested in what he claims to discuss
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: this gives me the impression that...maybe this is bitpay's handlers driving this nonsense
thestringpuller: as you've said before
thestringpuller: opaque agenda is opaque
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i for one did not expect this to be so brazenly demonstrated, so quickly, as it was.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: notice how similar his flavour of muppetronics is to that of mr. spam
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform subtlety is expensive. political competence especially so.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: i was telling a friend the other night that the CIA/FBI acts as the USG mafia, but won't admit to being the mafia. Whereas KGB/Soviets said, "Yea we're the mob, watcha gonna do about it?"
mircea_popescu: the theoretical theory was that "Bitcoin is all nerds anyway" and so any old junk should stick.,
thestringpuller: At least the russians were willing to be SOMEWHAT honest.
mircea_popescu: chetty: <<< reading various stuffs here on the great blockchain 'fix', I wonder whatever happened to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" <<< "everyone wants to be a developer" happened. and "everyone should get what they want" also happened.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: in the mid-20th-c., world split into 'prison' and 'psych ward' camps. 'hard' and 'soft'-power, respectively.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: these being the two basic schools of thought on how to run a 20th c. state.
assbot: The Rolling Stones - You Can't Always Get What You Want [Official] - YouTube ... ( )
mircea_popescu: felipelalli: but I also found too aggressive the numbers of Gavin. And why do you guys hate Gavin? << you will benefit from reading the logs, also googling " gavin" might help.
BingoBoingo: !up felipelalli
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform where by 20th c state we mean, one of those insane constructions where everyone is equal.
mircea_popescu: ie, how to run a socialist state.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: them.
davout: asciilifeform: pardon my ignorance, but who is mr spam?
mircea_popescu: and yes, a socialist state can only be run as a prison or as an insane asylum. because socialism is insanity.
Adlai: davout: ninjashogun
davout: !s ninjashogun
assbot: 1761 results for 'ninjashogun' :
davout: wow
asciilifeform: davout: i call him 'mr. spam' because he changed alias with some regularity. and promised to return one day under a yet-new one.
Adlai: spam indeed
davout: that's a high amount of ninjashogun
davout: asciilifeform: ic, ty
mircea_popescu: jurov: now i have 40/40 , but back when i had 10mbit uplink, bitcoind sometimes saturated it << this is an universal experience.
asciilifeform: davout: he's become a kind of proverbial example here, of certain kinds of behaviour
assbot: Oracle Critical Patch Update - January 2015 ... ( )
mircea_popescu: i have what the dorks refer to "Fat pipes" on a number of nodes and they still get saturated on occasion.
BingoBoingo: !up weex_
Adlai: my main problem with "mr spam" was the high stock he placed in ideas
Adlai: ideas are worthless, execution is what matters
mircea_popescu: Adlai some ideas are more worthless than others.
kakobrekla: shut up my idea does not require execution
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: packet shaping is a glorious thing.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: one of the reasons i took the sweat to set up a civilized routing stack at home
Adlai: yes, but keeping an idea secret doesn't prevent somebody else from executing it better than you, while you sit around trying to get people to invest in something you haven't explained to them
BingoBoingo: alf handcarves exquisite reliefs as he shapes traffic
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it just has to do with, if a bunch of nodes wake up and find you...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: find you and what? they get to eat out of a fixed trough, no faster than they are fed.
Adlai: mircea_popescu: eta on D.CTIP?
Adlai: they require you to price withdrawals in dollars
mircea_popescu: which is d.ctip ?
Adlai: this is retardation to a new level
Adlai: changetip
mircea_popescu: how is that worth anything ?
Adlai: i have no clue
mircea_popescu: so then eta is clue / 0
Adlai: but when you withdraw bitcoin, on the bitcoin network, you have to specify the amount in dollars
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Believe it or not it got a VC round, raised money
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75500 @ 0.00050243 = 37.9335 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: ChangeTip Raises $3.5 Million Lead by Pantera Capital | ... ( )
thestringpuller: first round was 750k
assbot: About | Pantera Capital - Bitcoin Investment Firm ... ( )
asciilifeform: ^ sc4mz0r zoo
kakobrekla: ah yes they plunked 10mio to buttstamp.
mircea_popescu: at this point listing them on mpex should yield what, 25% of equity. because it'd definitely increase their market value by that much.
Adlai: it's just baffling how people invest in this
asciilifeform: incidentally, there was a time when usg did the 'strategic vc' thing more or less above-board. see 'in-q-tel.'
asciilifeform: still a going concern, iirc
BingoBoingo: Wait, Buttstamp isn't even 3 full changetips?
Adlai: a penny pushing social media spamhaus with no business plan is almost half an exchange?
asciilifeform: 'changetip,' as i understand, answers two usg desires: 1) injection of tard armies into bitcoin, fodder for gavinization 2) the old, tired 'let's put some names/faces/palmprints/arsebook histories on as many btc addrs as we can'
mircea_popescu: Adlai the exchange has no margin in an indefensible market and makes no money.
diametric: nubbins`: so i'm being led to believe you can produce wood t-shirts for me now, hand carved no less.
mircea_popescu: so yes, 0 is ~= half a 0.
Adlai: lol
mircea_popescu: diametric witnessed.
asciilifeform: wooden t-shirts << ru slang, 'wooden mackintosh', coffin
diametric: ha really?
BingoBoingo: !up Lolugal
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the 2nd is particularly pernicious because of the "good enough" approach. "what do you mean bitcoin transactions can't be used to identify anything ? here's a list of derps we know for a fact, they're 50% of the blockchain spam"
Lolugal: hello
mircea_popescu: pseudoarguments of the attorney ilk.
BingoBoingo: Hello Lolugal
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> asciilifeform the 2nd is particularly pernicious because of the "good enough" approach. "what do you mean bitcoin transactions can't be used to identify anything ? here's a list of derps we know for a fact, they're 50% of the blockchain spam" << Reasons to never use a public Electrum server for people wondering about "Lite" wallets.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it goes very well with the usg approach to target selection. which is the 'texas sharpshooter' algorithm.
mircea_popescu: reason to not "drive adoption" to idiots / poor people / etc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform myeah.
asciilifeform: !s cocaine toilet
assbot: 5 results for 'cocaine toilet' :
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: pity conformal isn't better known. << how so? << they did all sorts of things for "the community" to be able to use their own stuff, which the community isn't doing because... well i guess more because lazy and stupid, but hey.
mircea_popescu: 1800 lines day's not even done ;/
Adlai: you missed gavin!
Adlai did too
ben_vulpes: <BingoBoingo> thestringpuller: Well ESPN says they paid ESPN in BTC << i thought it was a promise to pay in btc, the paper for which ESPN liquidated immediately
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 4260 @ 0.00080694 = 3.4376 BTC [+] {9}
mircea_popescu: yeah derp claimed he can't come because he's got a lunch engagement, then found out that so do i so he suddenly could.
Adlai is impressed that gavin showed up here, but also a little puzzled - did anybody think anybody else's opinion would change?
mircea_popescu: not a matter of opinions.
ben_vulpes: it's allll part of the act.
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Why do you have to highlight the shortcut that was almost certainly taken
ben_vulpes: he has to show. has to "try to talk sense into -assets"
Adlai: my new favorite word, after btcmiami, is "signaling"
mircea_popescu: guy saw an opportunity to check off thisparticular thing without actually doing it, and took it.
BingoBoingo: Adlai: What is "signaling"
mircea_popescu: it speaks volumes as to his own perceived value of his own "opinions" which he doesn;'t actually hold.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3590 @ 0.00082 = 2.9438 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: however, it only speaks volumes to those capable to listen.
assbot: Signalling theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( )
mircea_popescu: that was a fad 20 years ago too.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: see also 'stotting'
asciilifeform: (from your own article)
Adlai: btcmiami was all a huge signal: "look at us, we're so successful, we can sponsor all of this!"
Adlai: "come make us able to sponsor the next one too!("
asciilifeform: jumping up and down, to show that your legs work, is an example of what zoologists called 'honest signal'
mircea_popescu: Adlai so was that cyprus fiasco.
mircea_popescu: "we're so smart, we even got the dean of the cyprus uni to come!"
mircea_popescu: now that guy doesn't know how to erase his name from the mess.
mircea_popescu: exact same thing, in this exact same chan, three years ago. nefario was all "oh, we're so smart we got stallman to come"
mircea_popescu: dub actually was there iirc
ben_vulpes: pronking?
ben_vulpes: sporking?
ben_vulpes: dorking?
ben_vulpes: honking?
ben_vulpes: i can never remember this word.
mircea_popescu: ne1 else recall the glbse conference where nefario explained all about how he's immune to stuff two weeks before closing down ?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes stotting ?
ben_vulpes: sotting, yeah.
Naphex: ben_vulpes: heard you got ignored by gavin for distracting him ;)
asciilifeform: lol, what did stallman say ?
asciilifeform: (and was it signed ?)
ben_vulpes: Naphex: distracting << lol. not pandering, do you mean?
ben_vulpes: asking questions faster than his tiny brain and crippled fingers can keep up?
BingoBoingo: The video and Nefario rambling is somewhere
Naphex: hehe
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he was physically there.
mircea_popescu: lemme find the thing brb
assbot: object-files ... ( )
assbot: Fear and Loathing in Your Mother pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
Adlai: more like "must read"
Adlai: although i guess that's another one of the lost arts
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39300 @ 0.00050299 = 19.7675 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: ;;seen nefario
gribble: nefario was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 years, 17 weeks, 0 days, 2 hours, 14 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <nefario> Those assets are not listed or traded anymore
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6489 @ 0.00050313 = 3.2648 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform << there you go, pretty much complete guy's last week.
assbot: Sep 15 02:16:04 <nefario>oh man Sep 15 02:16:06 <nefario>so tired Sep 15 02: - ... ( )
BingoBoingo: Ah looking for that video link I ran into this classic on the only Bitcoin adoption that matters
assbot: Bribes in Bitcoins pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
mircea_popescu: mike_c: i suppose his point is along the lines of "mpex controls the coins it is holding, but account holders own them". << quite a weak point.
mircea_popescu: mpex is not regulated by the nyse, or in general by the us. expectations to the contrary will result in bruised expectators.
mircea_popescu: that'd be yet another difference between me and (bpay / coinbase / derp.* etc) : not only i make money and they make burn rate, but when i speak i speak from atop a position of significant power. they speak out of their ass, pretty much,not having an iota of actual influence either way.
mircea_popescu: which is fundamentally why they gotta keep quiet, for that matter.
BingoBoingo: !up STRML
mircea_popescu: STRML you're not using your cloak correctly youknow. we can see your ip.
ben_vulpes: *gasp*
ben_vulpes: your IP is showing!
ben_vulpes: SHAME
mircea_popescu: nipples!
ben_vulpes: nudity!
mod6: *zip*
ben_vulpes: feel bad about your toolchain
ben_vulpes: and body, while you're at it
mircea_popescu: anyway, i figure if someone goes to the trouble of getting a cloak they prolly care about it.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 80314 @ 0.00050319 = 40.4132 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: #bitcoin-wittgenstein-assets pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Earlier he said his bouncer was getting DoS...
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo re that post, lemme tell you how flattened i was by davout using "posteriority" :D
BingoBoingo: And yet Davout survives
davout: what
mircea_popescu: davout apparently i misread ?
mircea_popescu: le suck.
davout: posteriority, assness
mircea_popescu: you know, posterity ?
davout: yes
davout: postérieur in french also means butt
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla: i noticed when i was coding that keyservers tend to go down a lot << this is true, and has been for a while. pgp keyservers like the weakest link in the assets system currently.
mircea_popescu: incredible what ends up imported into our house ;/
mats: guess we'll have to run a keyserver now.
mircea_popescu: eventually yeah
mats: themes of #b-a: rebuild EVERYTHING
mircea_popescu: kinda hoping that the by-default gossipd keystore system may be enough
BingoBoingo: Oh a qntra submission to /. got accepted, but in linksnipped form, Instead of the qntra story they link which isn't even remotely local to the fucking arrest!
mircea_popescu: for shame.
mircea_popescu: point it out in comemnts.
kakobrekla: mats pretty much, and given the number of able people here, it will never get done
mircea_popescu: a) It's not nice to snip the source link - if you thought the guy;s work is good enough to use, think the guy is good enough to credit ;
mircea_popescu: b) the spammy link you replaced it with isn't even local. or useful.
mircea_popescu: statist pesimist!!
kakobrekla: me? im a realist, thats why im pessimistic.
mircea_popescu: kinda funny how "statist " is slowly becoming a cry de guerre.
mircea_popescu: anyway, ftr, there's nothing at all in this gavin thing. so he came in, derped about nothing in particular, found his way out. at least a dozen random noobs/spammers performed just as well.
assbot: Silk Road 2.0 Deputy Arrested - Slashdot ... ( )
mircea_popescu: !rate felipelalli -1 has a very strange idea of when it's time to talk.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.felipelalli.-1:ce71215acbced2ee28e23af75dd7b767e6314f260038f4c916a1aa81cb263c6e
assbot: Successfully added a rating of -1 for felipelalli with note: has a very strange idea of when it's time to talk.
BingoBoingo: !v assbot:BingoBoingo.unrate.felipelalli:a27e904686bb93b6243af0b032d1e4e7c383eb1d052a8ad3e800080a8a0085c2
assbot: Successfully unrated felipelalli
mircea_popescu: uh this log. so yesterday^H^H^H^ earlier today ben_vulpes is all like "god i love you guys". then i get all "wtf is this derp thinking, giving usgavin room to pretend for ?" and next line in log, sure enough...
mats: brutal
mircea_popescu: clearly idiots seldom differ.
mircea_popescu waves at Pierre_Rochard
Pierre_Rochard waves back
BingoBoingo: Oh, and CoinDesk finally got to a story on the arrest, but they instead cover the FBI Press Release.
mircea_popescu: I don’t want the developers setting it every two months, but I dont’ see a way to make fee revenue per block drive it (because the real-world bitcoin exchange rate is so variable) << this is particularly fucking stupid
BingoBoingo: "The arrest of Mr. Farrell is proof that federal law enforcement continues its efforts to root out those who subvert the Internet to set up black markets for illegal goods." << STFU
mircea_popescu: it was discussed earlier with jurov, but of course noobs don't read logs.
Pierre_Rochard: mircea_popescu: I was interested in hearing gavin defend tx fee elasticity, not much else
Pierre_Rochard: mircea_popescu: because I think the tx fee is inelastic to the point that it’s doubtful the limit will ever be raised
mircea_popescu: this is in fact a very complex issue.
mircea_popescu: i don't know anyone that seriously thinks they have a model on it
mircea_popescu: (discounting, of course, frustrated nobodies a la adam back, who are so cocksure they imagine they invented clorophorm)
asciilifeform: i, for one, would rather like to see the machine-gun taken away from the baby, and only then contemplate military strategy
Pierre_Rochard: mircea_popescu: I agree, the only model is what actually ends up happening. I think the miners will get a taste for that inelasticity and jealously defend it. I think Gavin & co fear that more than anything else
mircea_popescu: to some degree the demand for gold was elastic, and this is trivially proven by the fact that while industrial revolution europe used gold, china opf the time used silver.
mircea_popescu: so there DOES exist some elasticity in the monetary good.
mircea_popescu: now, how exactly it works... fouquet knows.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Well, maybe he accidentally invented it cleaning. I mean bleach disinfects and ETOH disinfects. Maybe he really wanted to get his piss dribblings off of the bathroom tile?
Pierre_Rochard: gold and silver are much, much closer substitutes than bitcoin and, say, litecoin or coinbase.
mircea_popescu: Pierre_Rochard you know, the "say the word, nodes ready, miners ready within a recompile" messages i got so far and that keep piling in...
mircea_popescu: it's not a matter of some distant future.
mircea_popescu: Pierre_Rochard for each other you mean ?
mircea_popescu: surely. and for that matter piss-poor models for bitcoin. that example is easily more misleading than useful.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this re: the merge-mining thing ?
mircea_popescu: but in point of fact the "monetary pholgiston" so to call the idealised thing is very poorly understood.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1382 @ 0.00084935 = 1.1738 BTC [+] {5}
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes.
danielpbarron: !rate gavinandresen -5 okey dokey, we have a fundamental difference of opinion on where the project should go.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2500 @ 0.00085 = 2.125 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: lol. "k guise, i guess we have a fundamental difference of opinion about this here wide screen tv i stole from your place"
STRML: thanks. never had a need for a cloak before but since somebody here ddos'd my bouncer I figure it's a good idea
mircea_popescu: i think gavin will make a fortune in gangsta rap
mircea_popescu: STRML it is, but you gotta apply it first.
STRML: Yeah. Will have to configure on the bouncer. Thanks for the headsup
danielpbarron: !v assbot:danielpbarron.rate.gavinandresen.-5:88e38a0d3bacd012bbf85a347fd6114b79fbbf53301867d2bb5ecfc3aea36d67
assbot: Successfully added a rating of -5 for gavinandresen with note: okey dokey, we have a fundamental difference of opinion on where the project should go.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: this gets old, it does. << quite old.
mircea_popescu: Pierre_Rochard: not to mention, the transaction fee _today_ is $0.02. Where is every man woman and child? Why are they not taking advantage of this amazing opportunity?? << because, the argument goes, they're so farsighted into the future, this children of the paycheck loan, these african seasonal hunters, that the POTENTIAL of it costing maybe more tomorrow perhaps is inhibiting them.
mircea_popescu: like you know, if bread in your african village is 5 dollars a loaf, and there's cake at 2 cents, you won't buy any cake.
mircea_popescu: becase IT IS POSSIBLE that in YEARS!!!! it may go as high as i dunno, 5cents ? a whole quarter ?
mircea_popescu: so you're spending 100 cakes per loaf of bread instead. because this is "economics" as understood by "expert economists" : oleg andreev, gavin assassinsen, that nytimes thoctchke what's his name
mircea_popescu: paul kruger
mircea_popescu: and so on.
asciilifeform: !rate gavinandresen -1 with note: pathetic usg muppet. tirelessly schemes to zimbabweize bitcoin in the name of 'inclusion.'
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: Pierre_Rochard: there is nothing, and good reason to think there cannot be, anything which even rises to the level of an ersatz. << in economics, substitute is a functional substitute not a logical substitute. in this sense, your feet are a substitute for a train.
asciilifeform: !v assbot:asciilifeform.rate.gavinandresen.-1:4b3f2513a1f08c4238511a84a1561981b97b4070e6ed35638c5ac133dbfeff10
assbot: Successfully added a rating of -1 for gavinandresen with note: with note: pathetic usg muppet. tirelessly schemes to zimbabweize bitcoin in the name of 'inclusion.'
mircea_popescu: an usg education is an economic substitute of an actual education, and margerine is an economic substitute for butter.
xanthyos: is the price of bitcoin moving up today a response to gavin being dissed in assets?
asciilifeform: and, i suppose, vacuum is a substitute for air. for a spell, anyway.
mircea_popescu: price answers no one.
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you got it.
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 227.97, vol: 21464.50503247 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 224.003, vol: 16571.37793 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 228.92, vol: 52253.10725355 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 229.5, vol: 17.07242792 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 226.822356, vol: 158884.46680000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 224.485, vol: 47.35145823 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 220.704000383, vol: 131.15571843 | Volume-weighted last (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know that scammer creativity analysis actually sounds very like soviet police doctrine, on meditation. didja get it out of some book ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's straight out of my arse.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: spur of the moment.
Adlai: is the asswot online yet? as in, visible from the www?
mircea_popescu: i guess we can say you're a russian thinker.
asciilifeform guilty as charged
mircea_popescu: Adlai there are jsons. i am thinking about putting a job up for site-ification of those outputs.
kakobrekla: not only jsons
kakobrekla: !gettrust assbot
assbot: Trust relationship from user kakobrekla to user assbot: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 11 via 6 connections. | |
kakobrekla: is this not a web page online:
davout: kakobrekla: scam
kakobrekla: (and its not json, json is with /json/)
mircea_popescu: but...trhey are jsons ?
Adlai: kakobrekla: had you waited a moment, you could've earned a pretty penny!
Adlai: oh but yes this is jsons
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: perfectly fine www page.
mircea_popescu: i am not disputing it is a webpage!
davout: kakobrekla: this looks like a dump of a php array, sort if dictionary, or maybe an array, depending on the amounts of "="
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: looks great straight from 'curl'.
mircea_popescu: that it does.
asciilifeform: as www pages ought to.
mircea_popescu: curl, however, does not count as "web"
asciilifeform: ditto in 'emacs'.
Adlai isn't sure what to make of this, but it's good enough for him
asciilifeform: sureitdoes.
davout: it can't be a web page, it has no google analytics
mircea_popescu: hory shit it's going to be th ecase nobody actually wants a PROPER web page ?!
kakobrekla: anyway, if you want a neater interface, add /json/ on end of url , decode and voila
mircea_popescu: where are the retarded bois going to mix cvasi azure with moss green and gold!
davout: !up STRML
BingoBoingo: davout: Qntra doesn't have google anal-y-tics either
mircea_popescu: STRML now it worked right
STRML: Great
STRML: SASL is the key there
mircea_popescu: one of yes
mats: anyone have an idea wut filesystem i should use with a SSD?
davout: BingoBoingo: i am disappoint
mircea_popescu: mats whatever your os likes ?
asciilifeform: mats: depends, do you intend to write to it ?
mats: i have read that many filesystems have behavior that is unkind to to writes
mats: yes
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes: i can't spot *every* scam << o wow, do we get the sad, blood splattered, tear imbibed story of it ?
asciilifeform: mats: often ?
BingoBoingo: davout: We do quantcast instead so everyone can see our anals
assbot: Traffic and Demographic Statistics by Quantcast ... ( )
mats: nah, just a dev machine
BingoBoingo: mats: Anything wrong with UFS?
mircea_popescu: it's not likely to make a difference mats. hdds are hceap enough.
asciilifeform: mats: each block (extant eeproms often have block sizes of 4k) can be erased/written 10-100,000 times.
asciilifeform: mats: the newer/denser the eeprom, the fewer.
mats: mmkay. idk anything about filesystems besides what i read in "Practical Filesystem Design"
assbot: Today in Silk Road proceedings, prosecution showed that the Dread Pirate Roberts private PGP key was saved on Ulbricht's computer.
davout: BingoBoingo: is that a different flavour of the same thing or is that fundamentally different?
asciilifeform: mats: there is generally a 'write-levelling' microcontroller in there, that tries to 'spread the pain'
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo that's pretty decent proof.
asciilifeform: mats: it generally is not aware of filesystem, but only of zero/nonzero blocks.
BingoBoingo: davout: This one differs in quantcast showing EVERYONE the visitors who happen to load quantcast junk while visiting your page
mircea_popescu: ahahaha wait, wait. so gavin actually sprouted the ninjashogun line re b-a "conversation quality" ?!
mircea_popescu: gawds have mercy.
mircea_popescu: why must everything be so funny ?
asciilifeform: mats: the only reliable heuristic i know of is that a large proportion of null blocks will prolong, somewhat, the life of the device
STRML: generally you don't have to worry about running out of writes on most modern SSDs
asciilifeform: STRML: horseshit
STRML: so long are you're not running TLC NAND you're fine for a good long time, and even if you are, a pretty reasonable amount of time under most loads
STRML: not horseshit, for typical consumer use it's fine. For long-term data storage or server use, it's not
STRML: which is why they sell server SSDs for a higher price.
mats: asciilifeform: right. people more technically proficient than i have suggested 'btrfs' instead of ext4, but i suppose SSDs will drop in price quickly enough for me to not care
undata: "This drive rated to over 10000 Facebook page loads!"
assbot: The Bottle Deposit - YouTube ... ( )
kakobrekla: cosumer grade ssd. .. the controller will die first.
STRML: Best way to prolong SSD life is to keep a decent amount of free space on it so TRIM can work its magic
STRML: also helps if can afford to turn off swap, and turn off hibernate.
BingoBoingo: mats: From what I've read on btrfs it seems to be mostly a multi drive arrangement beast that apes at being ZFS while failing on more edge cases
mircea_popescu: no, srsly, kakobrekla has it. i've seen more controller failures than anything. actually out of cycles deaths are so rare i don't recall one.
mircea_popescu: shitty turdware in the chip more likely to be the culprit in any case.
mats: ic
mats dials up swap to 8gb
mircea_popescu: and by the time it's out of cycles, that drive has seen petabytes worth of traffic. the cost of 1 petabyte of pipe exceeds the cost of the drive many times over
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes: contains "fix issue" buttons << lol this sounds like early chinese factory automation
mircea_popescu: davout: MAH HARICUT IS SIKRIT BZNS << honestly i had no idea it's a haircut. i had imagined it's simply whatever's left once the neighbours are done cutting their hedges.
davout: har
mircea_popescu: davout: justusranvier: in your article you shouldn't be reasoning on the cost of including a transaction in a block as (cost of one block / number of transactions) but you should reason on the marginal cost of adding a transaction to an already existing block that i'm currently mining << quite
mircea_popescu: and that doesn't actually even begin to address the (unrelated) problem with "infinite blocks", which is market destruction out and out.
mircea_popescu: somehow the idea that you can get "just as good food and service" no matter how cheap a restaurant meal gets, like say a cent, or 1/1000th of a cent, is directly stupid to people.
mircea_popescu: but the notion that mining will still work no matter how badly the incentive structure gets ruined, because somehow mining is a god given gift / universal service obligation of nature to man doesn't.
davout: yes
asciilifeform: the cost of 1 petabyte of pipe exceeds the cost of the drive many times over << lol, wai, wat ???
asciilifeform: if it all comes from the net - sure
mircea_popescu: guess what : mining is a marginal business as it is, and exactly the problems that ruined the western textile industry in your parent's lifetime can and will, if given a chance, ruin bitconi.,
davout: i think the idea of a one time bump of the block-size limit is actually much less braindamaged than the perpetual increase approach or infinite size that are pure folly
asciilifeform: if you're folding proteins - not so much
mircea_popescu: in point of fact, the industrial revolution was started by, and driven by, the textile industry.
mircea_popescu: anyone that's not read buffett's post mortem on that venture, once "block size was removed", really has no business participating in this conversation.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform true true.
jurov: mats and avoid trim mount option, run fstrim every day or so instead
mircea_popescu: davout it's really a very complex problem, "what to do".
mats: jurov: ok thanks, will look into it
mircea_popescu: obviously, a scenario where block congestion is a real problem may be constructed. it may even, in principle happen.
davout: mircea_popescu: when in doubt, make a ruby framework
mircea_popescu: but in this sense, a scenario where gavin has gay sex with midgets can also be constructed. so let's put him in prison for it,
mircea_popescu: because maybe it's against the law.
mircea_popescu: davout: i'm more of classical music and jazz guy << i knew there was a reason i liked you!
mats: anyone has warez of letters to shareholders 65-77?
mircea_popescu: there was that site had the lot of em
mircea_popescu: mats oh i see what you mean o.O
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28200 @ 0.00049947 = 14.0851 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: << this is like the lulziest shit ever
assbot: 4 Ways to Contact Warren Buffett - wikiHow ... ( )
mircea_popescu: "how to survive as a moron : wikihow!"
mircea_popescu: "<gavinandresen> My point is the point of Bitcoin is I can make a transaction to anybody in the world" << uhh.... if this is the point of bitcoin then bitcoin has at all points been so far offpoint it's a wonder it's still here.
mircea_popescu: this is r/buttcoin/ level understanding of bitcoin, for srs.
assbot: I live in Russia & my family is in U.S. here's our experience using Bitcoin for remittance. : Bitcoin ... ( )
jurov: i start grasping asciilifeform's problems with btc, too
mircea_popescu: jurov for what it's worth, here's my experience with bitcoin remittances : i sent btc to otc correspondents, ordered wires sent out to the hk account of my local agent, who has paid me dollars, in cash, in argentina. the entire process took less than what it takes to get a letter of credit, and significantly less than what international trade normally settles in.
mircea_popescu: i could, if i were so inclined, finance a nuclear programme or pay for some murders in this manner.
mircea_popescu: and exactly nobody would ever know, exactly how the foregoing episode is known specifically and exclusively because i chose to share it.
jurov: i gather if alf received such wires, they'd ship him straight to azkaban
mircea_popescu: so, spare me the reddit nonsense. bitcoin, money, and good stuff aren't for poor people.
asciilifeform: jurov: to be fair, the 'problems' i have all stem from the fact of being paid, and having expenses in, fiat.
asciilifeform: jurov: and not merely any fiat, but electronic, 'banked' bezzlars.
asciilifeform: jurov: nothing keeps me from receiving or sending wires, but anything that goes in - is insta-taxable
mircea_popescu: that said, remittances in the us are a total nightmare, because a) the us is principally insane and b) the entrenched interests of current processors work against the customers.
asciilifeform: jurov: and, if above a certain amount (in or out) 'nice folks' will arrive with pointed questions.
mircea_popescu: so for people needing a hundred bucks moved, it's hell on earth.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: pay for your drugs with cash :P
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: cash found where?
mircea_popescu: What are more safe alternatives in U.S. to fix our problem? (We can't afford losing our last $50) << this.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: may as well become counterfeiter if doing dope ?
thestringpuller: slowly take out x cash of bank every week
thestringpuller: until you have stack of benji's
mircea_popescu: people whose budget is $50 have NO BUSINESS trying to maintain trading networks that span continents.
mircea_popescu: they just don't.
mircea_popescu: wtf is this, derpy guy going to hansa agent in riga cca 1315, "hello this is my very valuable small river rock, how can i send it to london ???"
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: you remind me of a legend, possibly soviet, regarding a fellow who took a part home from the factory every day for half a century, built airplane.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is a johny cash song
assbot: johnny cash-one piece at a time - YouTube ... ( )
mod6: great song
asciilifeform: people whose budget is $50 have NO BUSINESS... << anyone have an idea of what hawaladars do re: minimal volumes ?
asciilifeform: i bet they happily move the 50.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes. they made women and children dependent on a man.
asciilifeform: wai, wat, hawaladars ?
mircea_popescu: ie, "offchain txn/poorcoin"
asciilifeform: i was specifically curious re: what a hawaladar in, e.g., usa, or eu, would charge to move 50 usd.
asciilifeform: as a kind of baseline.
mircea_popescu: he won't charge anything. how did the quote go,
mircea_popescu: "Some day, and that day may never come, I will call upon you to do a service for me. But until that day, consider this justice a gift on my daughter's wedding day."
mircea_popescu: there. that's the charge on 50 bux.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41247 @ 0.00049243 = 20.3113 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: 'gifteconomy'
mircea_popescu: people who imagine endlessness is a natural phenomena need to spend less time cooped up in their rooms, dreaming up shit.
asciilifeform: to folks unacquainted with basic physics, mechanization gives a convincing illusion of 'phree stuff 4ever'
asciilifeform: because all you need is, would appear to be, energy, and everybody knows that it comes from the mains socket.
asciilifeform: because god willed it.
mircea_popescu: and cryptographic security oozes out of the ether and miners are just this abstraction getting in the way of the ooze.
mircea_popescu: it will fill any shape and any volume we draw for it. because it must. because... god willed it!
asciilifeform: more generally, when confronted with the mechanical 'guts' of something, this type of person will answer 'get this away from me, it is unclean'
mircea_popescu: "i have never seen it do anything else before" and "who could have predicted"
mircea_popescu: apprentice fucking magicians.
mircea_popescu: where's that great disney cartoon of gavin & co
asciilifeform: 'sorcerer's apprentice' ?
assbot: YouTube Walt Disney Fantasia Mickey The Sorcerer's Apprentice - YouTube ... ( )
mircea_popescu: there. yep.
mircea_popescu: only thing missing being, mickey doesn't put on the sorcerer's hat to go to some conference
asciilifeform: !s the lifeboat mutiny
assbot: 0 results for 'the lifeboat mutiny' :
asciilifeform: << ancient radio play based on the tale (which i cannot at present find)
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> to folks unacquainted with basic physics, mechanization gives a convincing illusion of 'phree stuff 4ever' << Until you have to get Santino ready for an open casket funeral after catching every bullet at the tollboth.
asciilifeform: falling is flying until splat, yes, elementarily.
BingoBoingo: And one rarely has much choice in the splat
asciilifeform: choice, if any, was when jumping.
mats: re: previous SSD discussion (and many others), i don't mean to offend if i didn't specifically respond to you. i just had nothing good to say, but rest assured you have not been ignored
thestringpuller: i want moar ssds
thestringpuller: Put all the games on SSDs. no load time. heaven.
asciilifeform: mats: basic takehome lesson re: ssd is that virtually everything coming out the vendors' mouths is a lie
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21850 @ 0.00049243 = 10.7596 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well on the way down they might try to contort themself to leave a particular shape of splat.
mircea_popescu: mats i dunno but i think silence is no way to offend
asciilifeform: mats: if application is safety-critical, buy a series of samples and test to destruction.
BingoBoingo: !up OmegaOne
mats: is not. tryna bring some life to an old piece of shit
asciilifeform: mats: then happily buy. back up periodically to actual disk.
mircea_popescu: once's enough OmegaOne. what brings you here ?
mats: mircea_popescu: ensuring others have room to save face is one of my varied sins
OmegaOne: How can i get rich off of bitcoin?
mircea_popescu: easiest way to make a small fortune in bitcoin
mircea_popescu: is to start with a large one.
OmegaOne: how much is $1000 worth in bitcoin land
mats: ;;calc 1000/[market --last]
gribble: Error: The "Market" plugin is loaded, but there is no command named "--last" in it. Try "list Market" to see the commands in the "Market" plugin.
mats: ;;calc 1000/[ticker --last]
gribble: 4.39290107187
BingoBoingo: ;;calc 1000/5000
gribble: 0.2
BingoBoingo: OmegaOne: roughly a fifth of a bitcoin at my current sell price
asciilifeform: meowmix is back ?!
OmegaOne: !s meowmix
assbot: 22 results for 'meowmix' :
mats: OmegaOne: read logs (see topic) and get a cloak
asciilifeform: !down OmegaOne
assbot: ralphington comments on Coinbase Just Made Tax Accounting Unnecessary! ... ( )
assbot: I grew a neckbeard reading this "Bitcoin Declaration of Sovereignity" (note: Link doesn't go to the actual Bitcoin Foundation) : Buttcoin ... ( )
BingoBoingo: !up pete_dushenski
assbot: The problem of digital identity, or how to circumvent 2FA and e-mail authorisation | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( )
pete_dushenski: yet another chapter in the "who could've predicted" chronicle
pete_dushenski: bc.i will just change your e-mail if you ask nicely
mircea_popescu: lol you just social engineered ?
pete_dushenski: fuck, not even intentionally
mircea_popescu: well... best business practices security an' errything.
pete_dushenski: they actually just added this e-mail auth thing outta nowhere
mircea_popescu: at least you don't log in by filming your face
pete_dushenski: and it turns out that it created a loophole the size of texas
pete_dushenski: thumbprint!
assbot: What is BitcoinOS? | BitcoinOS ... ( )
pete_dushenski: if an e-mail and pwd were phishing or keylogged, the attacker just has to submit a form, wait two weeks, and voila!
asciilifeform: yet another 'os'
asciilifeform: i find these especially infuriating.
pete_dushenski: s/phishing/phised
pete_dushenski: phished* good grief
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: especially when there is no *BSD/kLinux to counter all of these Distro/k*BSD
kakobrekla: speaking of their page is showing 'cloudflare error 522' for more than an hour to me
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i don't care what it was made of, if you did not write an os, you did not write an os.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: why this peculiar dick-pulling, why pretend.
undata: asciilifeform: words, you can just tweet them
undata: then they get retweeted you see, and are true
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Sure. I'm just saying why don't they pretend better. Instead of throwing on fake spoilers and calling a car customer, this is the "I put a sticker on it" sort of effort.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: and 'write an os', per the barest technical definition, is not high science; it's a standard 'boy scout badge' in school.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: and 'write an os', per the barest technical definition, is not high science; it's a standard 'boy scout badge' in school. << You have an absurdly gross overestimation of the standards for Boyscout badges.
undata: asciilifeform: web devs have the idea that making something == cobbling together open source with tape, the less tape the better, and voila, app
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i'm speaking as someone who went in for a 'computer science' diploma at an entirely unremarkable american uni.
BingoBoingo: << I am speaking as person who achieved computers merit badge
assbot: Computers - MeritBadgeDotOrg ... ( )
asciilifeform: wasn't thinking of literal boyscouts, no (i know precious little about them)
BingoBoingo: requirements now actually seem harder now than when I achieved it.
undata: the whole culture is full of fakers; why the surprise at this category of them?
BingoBoingo: Find out about three career opportunities in the computer industry. Pick one and find out the education, training, and experience required for this profession. Discuss this with your counselor, and explain why this profession might interest you. Report what you learn to your counselor. << Doing this one now I'd pick curmudeon as a profession, and ask why writing OS is not a requirement.
pete_dushenski: kakobrekla "schedule maintenance"
undata: this social media thing I think has created the notion that identity is a matter of self-definition
undata: rather than reputation
thestringpuller: o look a pete_dushenski
undata: leading to the mind-rot of multitudes
pete_dushenski: heya stringy
pete_dushenski: undata it seems to me that the popularity of sm is an effect rather than a cause
undata: pete_dushenski: self-reinforcing though
undata: there's a reward associated with the behavior
undata: retweets, w/e
pete_dushenski: the mind-rot has been baking in for a couple of decades
undata: I agree
pete_dushenski: that's just the cleaving of importance from "importance"
pete_dushenski: like russia from the usa
pete_dushenski: russia turns down would-be bond-buyers in droves
pete_dushenski: us media reports that "bond sale fails"
undata: there's something there but I'm not cutting to the root of it
undata: it seems alien to me that words mean precisely dick in the present
pete_dushenski: think of it as word inflation
pete_dushenski: and it's every bit as toxic as fiat inflation
pete_dushenski: creates all kinds of puffed up balloons
undata: right, the erosion of measures of value could very well fuck thinking itself which leads to the abovementioned
pete_dushenski: quite so.
pete_dushenski: when there are no barriers to entry, people get really rather confused
pete_dushenski: in response, they cling to whatever presents itself, quite undiscriminatingly
pete_dushenski: so it's a markov chain going from shiny toy to shiny app to shiny turd
pete_dushenski: as to "words meaning zero" it's more that we're privy, if not downright inundated, with words from people who don't know how to use them
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Boy Scout badges in a lot of ways represent American failducation, shit offered as sausage because cylindrical phenomenon.
pete_dushenski: our wots can be so much larger than we can biologically manage that the signal is drowned out by the noise
pete_dushenski: try spending your days on newspaper websites reading about "terrorism" and "celerities" and see if your noodle doesn't turn to mush
pete_dushenski: selective filtering is completely mandatory for a functioning brain, if not in fact the best definition thereof
mircea_popescu: <BingoBoingo> asciilifeform [..] << You have an absurdly gross overestimation of the standards for Boyscout badges << i dunno dude, i never got the "all girlscout nookies" one.
BingoBoingo: <pete_dushenski> try spending your days on newspaper websites reading about "terrorism" and "celerities" and see if your noodle doesn't turn to mush << Helps if you pickle it with ETOH aforehand for preservation.
mircea_popescu: some are fucking hard.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: see song, 'be prepared', tom lehrer
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it contains literally 90% of what i know re: boyscouts.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: That's on the unpublished chart.
assbot: Tom Lehrer- Be Prepared - YouTube ... ( )
pete_dushenski: << 1 point for correctly identifying the laptop on the left
assbot: The difference that 25 years makes.
mircea_popescu: <undata> this social media thing I think has created the notion that identity is a matter of self-definition << has little to do with social media tho. it's more an outgrowth of the "civil rights" movement.
assbot: The difference that 25 years makes.
undata: mircea_popescu: I read your piece recently on how enfranchising all makes for significantly less representation in the society
undata: enlightening
mircea_popescu: that's the problem, what appears on the surface as doing one thing ends up doing the exact opposite when very complex systems are involved.
mircea_popescu: this is known to medical practitioners since forever. russia's newbie statesmen (commies ) stepped in it with extreme regularity
assbot: Nicolas Cage to Star in Osama Bin Laden Satire From 'Borat' Director (Exclusive) - The Hollywood Reporter ... ( )
mircea_popescu: to the point it was pretty much comedic. they didn't TRY to do it. but they did it all the damned time
assbot: Jim Blasko Explains 'Unbreakable Coin' (Video 2 of 2) - Slashdot ... ( )
BingoBoingo: ^ second day, second turd
pete_dushenski: undata mircea_popescu the term for this being, of course, iatrogenics
pete_dushenski: "harm caused by the healer"
assbot: The search for decency and the opposite of iatrogenics | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( )
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski yeah. taleb also very big on it
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: That's a pretty good summary of it. Gotta hide the smokes.
assbot: Women&apos;s World Cup to go forward on artificial turf - LA Times ... ( )
mircea_popescu: !up CoraCrisT
CoraCrisT: hey guys!
kakobrekla: hello
CoraCrisT: enjoying myself with gavin`s wannabee reformed theology
CoraCrisT: readin` the logs..
mircea_popescu: lol that's one way to put it
CoraCrisT: i`m still amazed
CoraCrisT: too bad he left so early..
CoraCrisT: so Kim Kardashian is publishing her new book/photo album called Selfie or Selfish... Amazon is selling a book with Satoshi`s posts from bitcointalk and gavin wants to hard fork bitcoin...
CoraCrisT: true history..
assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( )
mircea_popescu: kim's book i'd buy.
mircea_popescu: madonna's book/photo album was pretty hot
mircea_popescu: (the one where she fucks naomi campbell)
CoraCrisT googeling now
undata: CoraCrisT: as if we all didnt just
mircea_popescu: what, srsly ? that's one of pop culture's most notable artefacts!
kakobrekla: hey, you are the pop culture expert!
BingoBoingo: God Damn. It won't be until round 4 of the Australian open that a Serena Williams / Alize Cornet rematch is possible.
BingoBoingo: Fuck, its worse, round 5, I skipped a round
mircea_popescu: that cornet chick's pretty good huh.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla so i am. professional curse.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Good, but Exceptionally good against Serena specifically.
BingoBoingo: Usually when she beats serena she gets promptly knocked out of whatever tournament a round or two later.
BingoBoingo: But first she has to make it all of the way to round 5.
BingoBoingo doesn't always invest on Forum/Reddit logic, but when I do, I do it from an informed position
mircea_popescu: and with a laser.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 5000 @ 0.00085967 = 4.2984 BTC [-] {9}
BingoBoingo: These occasions only happen a few times a year. Why not take whatever scam odds a shady book offers to turn no more than 0.2 BTC into 1 BTC.
mircea_popescu: what were the odds ?
BingoBoingo: It depends, but usually I win when odds in favor of Serena drop to under multiplying my stake by ten as the payout.
BingoBoingo: So far it has been incredibly +Ev for me personally, but dunno how long it will last as serena continues getting old.
mircea_popescu: !up bertani_
BingoBoingo: O.o nubbins` why aren't you giving us the blow by blow on this drama?
assbot: Scam Warning: WoodCollector ... ( )
asciilifeform: satoshi book << i have it.
asciilifeform: there is nothing evil in it, and the first page is 'this is public domain material, copy freely' even.
asciilifeform: convenient dead tree collection of the material.
asciilifeform: the author mostly resisted the temptation to add crud
pete_dushenski: i have it too
pete_dushenski: foreword by jeff berwick if memory serves
ben_vulpes: oh jesus i return
pete_dushenski: he of "i'm not going to prison" fame
ben_vulpes: undata recommended me an emacs config change that took *hours* to unsnarl
ben_vulpes: granted, 'twas my own fault for not unsnarling it more quickly.
ben_vulpes: ?rate undata -2 fucked my .emacs
undata: bwah hah ha
undata: w/e you gave into your own tooling lust
undata: I was merely a mirror!
ben_vulpes: dood there must only be one canonical window manager
ben_vulpes: and emacs is not it
ben_vulpes: tooling lust << no it's true
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> [] i don't know anyone that seriously thinks they have a model on it << severely lacking in the whole conversation
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: i had no idea who. just read as 'some guy'. (skipped.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform had a canadian "investment forum" thing
assbot: Just a moment... ... ( )
assbot: dpaste: 2Y9D905 ... ( )
mircea_popescu: then went nutso with one of the "libertarian island" things which smells a lot like scam.
pete_dushenski: galt's gulch
assbot: So the Dollar Vigilante scam ring is going to jail. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
asciilifeform: incidentally, this is rather like selling 'superman's cape' sans flight
asciilifeform: (the 'galt's gulch' in the book - had an invisibility machine.)
BingoBoingo: !up Pierre_Rochard
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2000 @ 0.00083238 = 1.6648 BTC [-] {8}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2619 @ 0.00080581 = 2.1104 BTC [-] {8}
BingoBoingo: !up devthedev
BingoBoingo: !up felipelalli
felipelalli: I just wrote an article about my short experience in / #bitcoin-assets
assbot: a toca do coelho | Yeppuda Productions ... ( )
mircea_popescu: !up benjamindees
assbot: 'Yes, I was a racist' admits Shanley Kane - Breitbart ... ( )
kakobrekla: translated as "gang of noise" lol
mircea_popescu: << is this like... woodcollector, the "ceo" version ? ?
assbot: dpaste: 2Y9D905 ... ( )
mircea_popescu: ceocollector
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo lol.
asciilifeform: (scan) << usg use of bioweapons in kr war. detailed study.
BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: But means signal to noise. I assume Mike Hearn forked Google Translate too.
kakobrekla: i like the gang of noise.
BingoBoingo: !up felipelalli
BingoBoingo: !up decimation
decimation: lulzy gavin conversation
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i don't get it. why are we thinking some ex-gf of some failed gofundme capitalist is famous or something ?
felipelalli: "gang of noise" makes any sense in English?
mircea_popescu: let her grow an ass like kim, make pics and come back.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: She's the one who said something to the effect of Linux community needing to grow the balls to expel Linus or some shit.
mircea_popescu: and nobody cared.
kakobrekla: felipelalli well its a decent description of things. the name and the article. most people even fail to assemble that.
nubbins`: BingoBoingo was out all night
nubbins`: didja see where he called a guy a fag?
BingoBoingo: nubbins`: Like a cigarette?
nubbins`: like a homosexual male
felipelalli: kakobrekla: Not sure if it is a compliment, but thank you!
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Well, like ChangeTip she too recieved venture capital for a blog.
kakobrekla: if it does not contain "fuck you" its a compliment.
BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: Don't higher compliments on this channel normally contain "fuck you"?
mircea_popescu: wenture capital for a BLOG ?!?!
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Indeed.
mircea_popescu: what exactly, to pay the blogspot hosting bill ?
kakobrekla: yes but those are different fucks.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: To pay the, worked for a cloud bullshit company, violated the non-compete, and needed merit washed.
mircea_popescu: these fucking imbecile children of their imbecile mothers already. oh, college is too hard for you ? let's change the admission criteria! you wanna start a business but you're as dumb as fuckinmg rocks ? that's ok, start a blog instead. you wanna be a hacker too ? fine, fine, just edit some pronouns in other people's githubs.
felipelalli: kakobrekla: lol.
mircea_popescu: i have no fucking idea why anyone'd put up with it for five minutes.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: And this is why I never got the appeal of 4chan except as distilled in retrospectives though Encyclopedia Dramatica
mircea_popescu: i thought ed mostly did lj
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Only at the start. Deviating so far from LJ is why it had a hardfork crisis the coredevs lost.
assbot:   Amelia Greenhall — What it was like to co-found Model View Culture with Shanley Kane ... ( )
mats: a lol.
mircea_popescu: i thought the "coredevs" left because the guy grew up and the girl grew fat
mircea_popescu: well, she was always fat, but, whatever.
BingoBoingo: The girl was always fat, and weev was in jail. Girl fatlogiced a family and worksafe site then shuttered ED. The id didn't like that.
nubbins`: "everyone else is a goat the same age and gender as me"
nubbins`: mp i think that is actually burned into my brain now
mircea_popescu: anyway, so this entire "abuse", "racism" whatever libertard bullshit / paralegal paralogistic construction is finally reaching that necessary point in its evolution where it mostly consumes itself.
mircea_popescu: nubbins` yeah well...
assbot: Logged on 21-01-2015 18:11:24; gavinandresen: a soft fork means miners must upgrade, or their blocks will be rejected.
assbot: Logged on 21-01-2015 18:11:39; gavinandresen: a hard fork means everybody running a full node must upgrade, or they will be on a different chain
BingoBoingo: nubbins`: This is why it is better to be a Ram than a goat. Sure, techinally you are sheep, but who can oppose you when you are angry?
assbot: Angry Ram takes on a 6 ton digger - YouTube ... ( )
mircea_popescu: decimation how you mean ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for something consuming itself, it's astonishingly alive and kicking.
decimation: To my way of thinking, either the protocol is broken or it isn't
decimation: whether they want to create it or not, there is a spec
mircea_popescu: decimation contrary to what superficially is being claimed, bitcoin really consists of two consensuses.
mircea_popescu: one is the consensus that allows for new blocks to be mined.
mircea_popescu: the other is the consensus that allows for transactions to be accepted as valid.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's more of a forest fire, and will burn until there is nothing to burn.
mircea_popescu: these two have a lot of overlap, of course.
asciilifeform: or until someone puts it out.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Ourobourus eating itself as of this year. New in the public discussions of that crowd
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i disagree, myself.
decimation: Labeling one consensus as 'hard' and another as 'soft' doesn't seem to be a good use of language
mircea_popescu: a fire affects everything, related or not. this is more like cancer : it affects the victim, but not the chasir he sits on or the op fucking them in the ass.
mircea_popescu: decimation that is happenstance, arriving from the very haphazard manner in which abstraction works out of the group of power rangers
mircea_popescu: they don't proceed from an in depth understanding of the thing, but merely by and by, as experience allows.
mircea_popescu: this worm's progress made them use those words because apparently one is more of a bitch than the other.
asciilifeform: !s the camel has two humps
assbot: 5 results for 'the camel has two humps' :
assbot: Logged on 21-01-2015 02:59:39; Luke-Jr: I think the db_config patch may explain why it works, but could be potentially inadequate for the current consensus rules
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so basically, im saying "this certain part of the us is now so infested, the cancer is mostly eating other cancer"
mircea_popescu: decimation Luke-Jr generally pretends that things he doesn't like don't actually exist. this is the case in pretty much every line he utters, crafted to support his particular mental issues.
mircea_popescu: in this case, he conveniently neglects the point that there is no \such thing as CURRENT consensus, in any way distinct from trhe actual consensus
mircea_popescu: as verified by a 5.x node
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> decimation Luke-Jr generally pretends that things he doesn't like don't actually exist. this is the case in pretty much every line he utters, crafted to support his particular mental issues. << Things like Popes
mircea_popescu: now, he'd like for it to be the case, obviously, because that'd imply that the "Work" the power rangers have been doing for the past year is worth more than zero, which is a proposition he holds dear for obvious reasons.
BingoBoingo: In much the same way he'd like a miner on a bench at BFL to have been a miner on his testing bench
decimation: to be fair, he did express some level of interest in the foundation project. perhaps he knows what is really true in his hindbrain
mircea_popescu: anyway, i suppose it comes as one of those "nobody could have predicted" things to these people that the entire pile of crap they've been amassing over the years can and for that matter likely will simply be thrown out and forgotten.
mircea_popescu: a naive stance, but then again neckbeards aren't exactly known for worldliness.
BingoBoingo: decimation: Probably to an extent. Luke-Jr has a rather sort of logical structure organizing his schtick which seems self consistent while entirely problematic.
mircea_popescu: "So his mom cut him off from wiping his ass for him when he turned 18 and now he thinks the ladies owe him blowjobs. I hope bitcoin collapses just to fuck this guy."
mircea_popescu: apparently reddit really likes me, in unrelated news.
BingoBoingo has been considering using one of those "Edgerouter Lites" as a desktop system.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Where was this?
decimation: asciilifeform: did you use libusb-0.1 or -1.0 to develop cardano? or are you just using the kernel mass storage driver?
assbot: Silk Road 2.0 Deputy Arrested - Slashdot ... ( )
mircea_popescu: apparently some people get it.
BingoBoingo: The tragedy is I have an assload of modpoints atm, but can't spend them on this thread because I had to highlight the link sniping.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi what all that is, but it sounds funny.
assbot: Silk Road 2.0 Deputy Arrested - Slashdot ... ( )
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Basically slashdot has "votes" but they get allotted at unpredicatable time intervals and expire.
mircea_popescu: so the only way spamming it works is statistically ? gee.
BingoBoingo: Pretty much.
BingoBoingo: Pretty sure that contributed to our good /. run with pankkake
mircea_popescu: what was that again ?
BingoBoingo: but for story selection everything goes through the annoited editors anyway which is why some altcoin got two stories on consecutive days.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> what was that again ? << That time my personal blog was featured on /. thrice with no resistance.
BingoBoingo: And featured thrice in 4 months
BingoBoingo: The first time was exactly one year ago +/- 5 days
BingoBoingo: !up hktud0
assbot: ButterNubber comments on I grew a neckbeard reading this "Bitcoin Declaration of Sovereignity" (note: Link doesn't go to the actual Bitcoin Foundation) ... ( )
ben_vulpes: oh, reddit discovered the fundation?
mircea_popescu: you're famous nao.
mircea_popescu: dun fuck it up.
ben_vulpes: i'm still waiting for robert viragh to call my mother and tell her i hang out with nasty people on the internets
mircea_popescu: why your mother specifically?
ben_vulpes: because that's what he threatened to do!
ben_vulpes: not even kidding
mircea_popescu: i guess hungarians have jew-close relationships with their mothers /
mircea_popescu: no wonder highest suicide rate in teh werld.
ben_vulpes: want to hear something else lispily amusing?
ben_vulpes: stumpwm (a cl window manager) handles multiple monitors better than OS X.
mircea_popescu: i wasn't thinking os x is particularly good at any task.
ben_vulpes: "just works" is dead. has been for like 3 revisions now, but the rest of the world is finally waking up to it.
mircea_popescu: humor comes from contradictiyon
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Ever play with plan9 or its forks/distros?
mircea_popescu: "Table 'bitcoin.smf_boards' doesn't exist"
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: nah, it was great for the adobe suite
decimation: usg's failure to properly implement fire department radio encryption (not that it is needed) could have killed people
assbot: New Radio Encryption May Have Stymied Communication in Metro Incident, Sources Say | NBC4 Washington ... ( )
ben_vulpes: basically purpose built for them
mircea_popescu: did tardstalk just move over the new design ?
mircea_popescu: the one a guy in sf made for $500k
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: not i, no.
ben_vulpes: my next operating system dabblings are going to be in bsds and gentoo
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo ^ scoop for you
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: If they did, they haven't done it well
mircea_popescu: bitcointalk died ?
decimation: ben_vulpes: re: osx << it's been going downhill ever since 10.6
mircea_popescu: thanks god that italian dude did the cached version eh.
mats: all this gloom about forest fires makes me nervous, i am a mere vassal of USG with insufficient rocket fuel
ben_vulpes: decimation, yeah, that's the one.
ben_vulpes: i've yet to eat 10.10.
ben_vulpes: my time will come, i'm sure
decimation: I've been cursed with supporting osx at the office to some degree
decimation: ever try to make it actually work with nfs reliably?
ben_vulpes: their proprietary spreadsheet program will only save documents compatible with the version of itself that runs on 10.10
mircea_popescu: anyone remember who was the sysadmin ? i recall he was here.
BingoBoingo: c something or other
punkman wonders if bitcointalk will break all the old links after upgrade
decimation: mats: in the case of the link above, people died waiting for 'rescue' after a metro train became 'stuck' near some kind of fire
mircea_popescu: cedivad ty.
mircea_popescu: ;;seen cedivad
gribble: cedivad was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 30 weeks, 1 day, 7 hours, 50 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <cedivad> Barber claimed that they were payments to suppliers, but he has still to prove that.
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell cedivad hey, now that is gone, could a full dump of be had for archival purposes ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: ;;rate gavinandresen -5 has already broken bitcoin innumerable times and would like to continue.
gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating of -5 for user gavinandresen has been recorded.
ben_vulpes: ;;rate gavinandresen -5 has already broken bitcoin several times and would like to continue.
gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating for user gavinandresen has changed from -5 to -5.
ben_vulpes: !rate gavinandresen -5 has already broken bitcoin several times and would like to continue.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.gavinandresen.-5:8e4060d0c134fa8feda50c5e3e897056c40b5142c493f8d4371e8bbaf386085d
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for gavinandresen from -5 to -5 with note: has already broken bitcoin several times and would like to continue.
mircea_popescu: anywya, ima be off now, all teh people wanting to pretend like you are talking in b-a but not really, you got at least six hours.
BingoBoingo: scoopbot: fetch
BingoBoingo: scoopbot -fetch
punkman: I doubt they will actually migrate to node.js crapolade before 2016, seems like a lot of work
BingoBoingo: punkman: Well, question marks exist for reasons.
decimation: lol " In other words, 0.2-0.3% of all G+ profiles, about 4-6 million users, have made public posts in 2015. "
assbot: Google+ Active Users - Business Insider ... ( )
punkman: decimation, so they are claiming 2-3 billion users total?
ben_vulpes: <BingoBoingo> [] lulz << and yet nothing on motherboard, despite twitter's "source" of Kari Paul, nominally a writer for the rag in question.
assbot: Today in Silk Road proceedings, prosecution showed that the Dread Pirate Roberts private PGP key was saved on Ulbricht's computer.
decimation: punkman: that's 2-3 billion signups
punkman: best SR timeline and notes
assbot: Silk Road Tales and Archives ... ( )
decimation: of which apparently 99.7% never actually use google plus as 'social media'
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Remember that time pankkake was like WTF is this giant incoming ATC transaction... And it was because in worst practices we had a private key together...
ben_vulpes: << and yet nothing from today
assbot: Silk Road Tales and Archives ... ( )
BingoBoingo: Technology is cruel, but especially so to prosecutors.
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: ya duh if the defense is "DPR was more than one person" then the obvious next step is "well and of course we shooped the key around"
BingoBoingo: Indeed
BingoBoingo: And of course then when Ulbricht returns e gets the archives of drama he missed.
assbot: The Who - Behind Blue Eyes (Original Version) - YouTube ... ( )
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