Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2015-01-09 | 2015-01-11 →
mircea_popescu: so thinking further on the project to compare ecdsa libraries from yest... i guess the best thing would be to email respectable crypto people see if they want to do it as a contracted job. anyone wish to make recommendations ?
mircea_popescu: aka "got a favourite cryppie ?"
mats: colin percival, moxie
TomServo: kakobrekla | i just find the whole fetch command thing silly. << If it was named scoopdog that'd be one thing...
mircea_popescu: mats aha
mats: DJB, too
mircea_popescu: put links if you have em
assbot: Tarsnap - Contact ... ( )
assbot: Moxie Marlinspike >> About ... ( )
joecool: hm i wonder if he ever pops on irc, his co has a small channel
mircea_popescu: experience over the past few years shows that answer is generally yes
assbot: Snowden: US has put too much emphasis on cyber-offense, needs defense | Ars Technica ... ( )
mircea_popescu: he's consulting now ?!
mats: 'defense' is kinda misleading imo
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8050 @ 0.00065591 = 5.2801 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: "fix the damned software" "nu-uh, we'd rather look for bugs in the chinese's" "they're using the same shit, you know"
mats: ...suggesting that computers as they are can be proportionally defended, rather than a contest of risk management and attack surface
mircea_popescu: mats if i defend my windows, i look for holes. if i attack your windows, i... look for holes ?
mircea_popescu: wtf is the difference.
mircea_popescu: obviously, on a strategic plane the difference would be "stop making broken by design software ; behead all the shitgnomes ; adopt bitcoin as us currency" etc.
mircea_popescu: but that's a way waiting.
assbot: Re: Emacs contributions, C and Lisp ... ( )
mircea_popescu: obviously i read "floss"
mats: as intended!
mircea_popescu: i don't get it. so, stallman-gcc, is at odds with stallman-emacs and they don';t wanna talk inside his head because cacti ?
mats: ive read it several times and concluded a) i dont get it and b) f/oss is embarassing and dumb
assbot: Re: Emacs contributions, C and Lisp ... ( )
mircea_popescu: apparently there's some debate about ast output in gcc.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the gcc-emacs merger seems slowly but surely emergent
mircea_popescu: mebbe they could call it gccemacsd
mats: id like to see gcc contribs move over to llvm, if for no other reason than to motivate both parties
mircea_popescu: i have not looked at the matter in at least 3 years. does llvm still own gcc much to everyone's chagrin and denial ?
asciilifeform: it never did, afaik
asciilifeform: on any parameter i know of
asciilifeform: but apple, etc. love it on account of no gpl
assbot: [Phoronix] GCC 5.0 Outruns LLVM 3.5 Compiler By A Bit On Core-AVX2 ... ( )
mircea_popescu: im still there
mircea_popescu: llvm compiles faster, sucks at encryption (lol) and by degrees at everything else.
mircea_popescu: sounds like the true c compiler!
asciilifeform: iirc rms is concerned about something quite valid - gcc has excellent front-end and ast-level optimizations, while at the same time, a middling-to-poor set of back-ends (depending on cpu arch)
mircea_popescu: take half and run, yes
asciilifeform: back-end optimizations, that is
asciilifeform: aha. plenty of folks want to take, take, run.
assbot: [Bitcoin-development] OpenSSL 1.0.0p / 1.0.1k incompatible,causes blockchain rejection. ... ( )
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo let me dig up my own words from the damned logs
BingoBoingo: Everyone knows you have them.
BingoBoingo: !up Vexual
assbot: Logged on 08-01-2015 08:24:54; mircea_popescu: he's prolly aiming for putting it in by february, but won't actually have the tech resources to do it and rather than risk a total humiliatory blowout delay it to march
mircea_popescu: already cracking at teh seams.
mircea_popescu: day later.
asciilifeform: 'wunderwaffen' answered.
asciilifeform: -- 'soft' fork on some other minor point, boil frog more slowly.
mircea_popescu: not good enough.
assbot: MassPrivateI: Mass. law enforcement agencies claim they're corporations and they're exempt from FOIA requests ... ( )
mircea_popescu: "While I have often cautioned people before to avoid using libsecp256k1
mircea_popescu: for verification on the grounds that consensus trumps correctness, the
mircea_popescu: above incompatibility does strongly suggest that OpenSSL may not itself
mircea_popescu: have very good consensus-critical design. Along with Maxwell and
mircea_popescu: Wuille's recent findings¹ CVE-2014-3570 - strong evidence of the
assbot: Bank of America warns of 'lethal' damage to China's financial system as deflation deepens - Telegraph ... ( )
mircea_popescu: excellent testing the library has undergone - I personally am now of the
mircea_popescu: opinion that migrating Bitcoin Core to libsecp256k1 in the near future
mircea_popescu: is a good idea on the grounds that it provides us with a well-written,
asciilifeform: mats: old news i think
mircea_popescu: and well-understood library designed with consensus in mind that'll
mircea_popescu: probably give us fewer consensus problems than our existing OpenSSL
mircea_popescu: dependency. It'll also help advanced protocol implementations by giving
mircea_popescu: them a clear dependency to use when they need consensus-critical
mircea_popescu: signature evaluation."
mircea_popescu: unless there's some sort of major backdoor in wuille's ecdsa implementation...
mircea_popescu: anyway, ima get on teh comparison requests tomorrow. if anyone has more names to suggest as per above...
asciilifeform: mats: see also:
asciilifeform: !s gendarmerie
assbot: 7 results for 'gendarmerie' :
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha, doing the 'nix openssl' thing from therealbitcoin idea list ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform seems so.
mats: asciilifeform: ive only seen this specific issue get airtime in the last few months
mircea_popescu: not that THAT is a bad move in any sense, of course. but timeo Danaos et dona ferentes.
mats: but yes, i agree with the premise re: gendarmerie
asciilifeform: i expect to be a minority of one on this, but i'd much rather see it done by one of the folks here, than by a great sage who may or may not have been suborned (or shall be as soon as enemy gets wind of intention)
asciilifeform: unless you'd like to hire them in pairs.
[]bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for Yes on "Gold to drop under $1000 before March 2015" Odds: 28(Y):72(N) by coin, 28(Y):72(N) by weight. Total bet: 7.1 BTC. Current weight: 99,593.
mircea_popescu: the asking is public, let teh enemy pluck its hairs.
mats: BingoBoingo: chimps are terrifying.
BingoBoingo: mats: Of course
asciilifeform: has anyone considered how preposterous the entire notion is, of bitcoin depending in the least bit on crud in external libs that can change on a whim ?
mircea_popescu: you mean, has anyone considered how idiotic "update now" is ?
mircea_popescu: yes, actuyally, they have. here even, publicly and explicitly.
asciilifeform: ah yes, more or less that.
asciilifeform: but it's especially ludicrous for safety-critical proggy
asciilifeform: and astonishing how long folks have been putting up with it.
mircea_popescu: not astonishing in the slightest.
mircea_popescu: first, there was one man, who couldn't code, doing idiotic things like windows and qt.
mircea_popescu: then there was a group of youthful men doing what seemed clumsy but well meaning stuff
mircea_popescu: then they were cast out and a bitcoin foundation constructed.
mircea_popescu: seems very reasonable really. how short would you have put up with it ?
asciilifeform recalls now the discussion of 'what do the mega-miners run, and why should they ever wish to tell us'
mircea_popescu: side note : i read someone (maybe joel on soft ?) in a wonderful piece "why i never upgrade" and i've never been able to find it again. ne1 know it ?
asciilifeform: mats: gcc... a) i dont get it... << what's the hard concept here? rms wishes to avoid gcc turning into a sweet and defenceless piece of candy for the 'embrace & extend/extinguish' folks.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he's characteristically weak in the rhetorics involved.
mircea_popescu: i very much doubt half his closest collaborators grok what he means on the strenght of his text. you yourself, i suspect, followed the logic of the situaiton not the logic of his words.
asciilifeform: situation aha
asciilifeform: 'the spartan - speaks with his sword.'
mircea_popescu: well yeah, so, i don't understand wtf he's saying either.
asciilifeform: weak rhetoric, but he wields the zapper.
mircea_popescu: i do understand what he should be saying. but...
asciilifeform: through the sword i listen to wtf he is actually saying.
asciilifeform: reportedly, rms keeps a harem. perhaps it understands his words.
mircea_popescu: i never heard that report.
mircea_popescu: i heard of parrots and a fear of bathing and cactus
asciilifeform cannot swear to it, mainly informed thirdhand re: a variety of rms women.
asciilifeform: cactus ?
asciilifeform does not know what to believe, but did at one point meet an actual live woman who spoke at length of writing to rms and wishing to make close acquaintance - no luck
mircea_popescu: this proves harem in the sense person offering large stores of grain to dissinterested cad thereby proves cat's a farmer.
asciilifeform: re: rms and his oddities, i'd note that quite a few (most?) folks would end up regarded as similarly odd, if they somehow were set free to do wtf they pleased
assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( )
mircea_popescu: in my limited experience with harems and the people keeping them, you can more or less get a trial run. especially as a young, entused woman.
BingoBoingo: Damn, missed
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform specifically, gaddafi was regarded as similarly odd,
mircea_popescu: especially as he become politically inconvenient
mircea_popescu: and in direct relation to that.
asciilifeform: re: mr g:
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2014 17:44:35; asciilifeform: 'When the glorious Muammar Kaddafi, in his blue bournouse, or in his uniform, appear on the telly, the domesticated inhabitant of the sanitaria jerks from fright. 'Monster,' 'terrorist,' 'evildoer,' public enemy number one - the media calls him, led by its disdain for all that is envigorating (and, on top of it all, foreign), and pushed by false information supplied by CIA... ...his very existence is
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2014 17:44:35; asciilifeform: a videoclip of a fairy tale coming true... ...they [americans] also wish to drive around in jeeps, accompanied by squadrons of hotties in berets with kalashnikovs - but are impotent from birth. Envy, taken with an understanding of one's own powerless... easily transforms into hatred. The leaders of the sanitarium are easier for the 'patient' to understand, closer. He sees their permissible pecadillos,
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2014 17:44:35; asciilifeform: eased with their mediocrity. 'But this fellow from the desert!' (Interestingly, that among the hundreds of tyrants, in uniform and without, depending on the united states or the european sanitaria, none provoke a fraction of the wrath caused by Kaddafi. Evidently, the cause is his independence.) Kaddafi - is an extraordinary living proof of the fact that the fairy-tale version of life remains possible
assbot: Logged on 21-03-2014 17:44:41; asciilifeform: t only outside of the sanitaria.'
asciilifeform: (limonov)
assbot: Open Source to Go!: Emailing Richard Stallman ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6750 @ 0.00066802 = 4.5091 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: tl;dr : gnome twerp is "I’d strongly encourage you to refrain from such comments in the future.", because that's how the world works nao.
asciilifeform: pour la gnome-aille, il faut la mitraille.
asciilifeform: or sumthinglikethat
mircea_popescu: "315 comments", you understand.
mircea_popescu: still, they're funny. guy derps about how "concerns echoed again and again are ignored!!11" and is amazed. then people echo again and again the concern that "wtf loosen up" and "why are you publishing some guy's emails ?" which he... amazingly... ignores. why ?
mircea_popescu: "because he wqon't read me! and there's no other way to vent my little penis!"
mircea_popescu: it's so great to live in this day and age.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15798 @ 0.00064422 = 10.1774 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: sometimes i shudder at the thought at how comparatively harder and humoruless-er my life would have been, had i chanced to live among sane people.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu could have ended up writing monte carlo sims for implosion tampers on gigantic trinary computer. in refal.
mircea_popescu: but this is a lot more fun.
assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( )
mats: !s graham allison
assbot: 2 results for 'graham allison' :
mats: << i missed this. is he unreliable?
assbot: Logged on 10-07-2014 16:05:38; asciilifeform: Mats_cd03: only worth reading if there's a source other than alexander lebed circa 1997.
assbot: The Meme Hustler - The Baffler ... ( )
mircea_popescu: "The enduring emptiness of our technology debates has one main cause, and his name is Tim O’Reilly."
mircea_popescu: whodda thunk making a shitton of "x for idiots" books will result in a large bleating herd of idiots!
mircea_popescu: (ethymology also interesting : stallman's favourite pressman - evgeny morozov - running down o'reilly because he's not left enough!!)
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, the relative failure of foss is strictly due to the incongruous and often misshapen radical leftist ideas of stallman. had that thing been "the same old gospel of individualism, small government, and market fundamentalism that we associate with Randian characters" it'd not be struggling covered under a pile of open source.
assbot: The nature and history of equity ... ( )
mats: whoops ... wrong one. i'm reading about the Earl of Oxford's case
mircea_popescu: which one is that ?
mats: > concerned land in London which Henry VIII had gifted to Thomas, Lord Audley, as a reward ... By his will, Audley left the land to Magdalene College, Cambridge, but the college subsequently sold the land and some of it was acquired, indirectly, by the Earl of Oxford. Magdalene College challenged Oxford's title on the basis of a statute which prohibited the
mats: disposition of College lands ... as part of the original sale, Magdalene College had made an intermediate transfer to Queen Elizabeth with the deliberate intention of bypassing the statute.
mircea_popescu: you know a simple summary of all the many ways english barristers tried to use the crown as a fixed point to unseat the lawe would be dazzling.
mats: i pity the research assistant
mircea_popescu: one example : original legislation to defend the living against mortmain holdings required all wills vest
mircea_popescu: but how ? and they came to the idea to make it vest in a definite relation to a definitely existing thing
mircea_popescu: on the principle that nothing that is is forever, and so...
mircea_popescu: the reaction ? make wills reference the throne succession. so wills would be as good as the lifetime of the dynasty.
mircea_popescu: that had to be excised specifically, which is how the wills practice got to be so insanely complicated, the us practitioners pretty much gave up.
mats: ;;dict mortmain
gribble: wn: mortmain n 1: real property held inalienably (as by an ecclesiastical corporation) [syn: {mortmain}, {dead hand}] 2: the oppressive influence of past events or decisions [syn: {dead hand}, {dead hand of the past}, {mortmain}]
mircea_popescu: the dead are at the following advantage over the living : they don't feel any pressure to change their views.
mircea_popescu: this may become untenable.
mircea_popescu: to illustrate : suppose i am me, and i happen to believe that all females should spend a decade right after puberty nude at all times. i happen to be rich, and mindful of my beliefs. while i accept that i can't oder people around, i also expect them to respect my disposition of my own property. and so my will reads, that all my stuff is to be inherited by so and so successors, provided at all times all females pubescen
mircea_popescu: t for a decade or less on that property are nude.
mircea_popescu: my neighbour, a man of different notions but similar methods, orders all black haired people to always wear square hats.
mircea_popescu: a few century later, "circus" means a place where everything's quiet. because a simple walk down the street makes one's head spin.
assbot: One Phone Call is Not Enough: Court Rules You Have the Right to Google a Lawyer - Michael Geist ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14991 @ 0.00065972 = 9.8899 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12200 @ 0.00064355 = 7.8513 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8249 @ 0.00064355 = 5.3086 BTC [-]
[]bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Gold to drop under $1000 before March 2015" Odds: 23(Y):77(N) by coin, 23(Y):77(N) by weight. Total bet: 8.8399 BTC. Current weight: 98,810.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13800 @ 0.00064351 = 8.8804 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17722 @ 0.00065926 = 11.6834 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18200 @ 0.00064343 = 11.7104 BTC [-]
assbot: xiando +v failed; L1: 0, L2: 0
kakobrekla: !up xiando
xiando: So I need a better WOT rating all of a sudden? :-/ oh well, life can't always be easy as pie.
kakobrekla: as dead as wot seems it still changes.
PeterL: ;;gettrust assbot xiando
gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask xiando! Trust relationship from user assbot to user xiando: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: | WoT data: | Rated since: Mon Feb 18 08:34:39 2013
PeterL: Could you self voice in the past? Maybe somebody here removed their rating?
xiando: Perhaps. But I am just this guy, you know, I rarely have anything important to say so it is fine, really. I can just idle and not be important and not write, that is alright.
PeterL: anything import to say today?
xiando: I thought I'd mention that openssl 1.0.1k apparently breaks bitcoin-core which shows how "well programmed" that piece of .. software? is.
assbot: Bitcoin / Mailing Lists ... ( )
PeterL: is this a problem with openssl or bitcoin-core?
xiando: Basically a bugfix in openssl makes bitcoin-core behave differently depending on what openssl version is used
kakobrekla: might as well put it here.
kakobrekla: !up hermeto
joecool: xiando: yeah it breaks it, happy to report libressl does not
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23150 @ 0.00065628 = 15.1929 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1916 @ 0.00089279 = 1.7106 BTC [-] {12}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6650 @ 0.000659 = 4.3824 BTC [+] {2}
decimation: asciilifeform, others: << dude made a complete word processor in minecraft, using 'redstone logic'
assbot: Redstone Word Processor/Computer in Minecraft [1024 subscriber special] - YouTube ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10400 @ 0.00064343 = 6.6917 BTC [-]
assbot: Log In - The New York Times ... ( )
decimation: "But investigators concluded that, whether or not the disclosure harmed national security, it amounted to a significant security breach in the office of one of the nation’s most trusted intelligence leaders. They recommended that Mr. Petraeus face charges, saying lower-ranking officials had been prosecuted for far less."
decimation: ;;ticker
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 278.72, Best ask: 278.87, Bid-ask spread: 0.15000, Last trade: 278.87, 24 hour volume: 36864.61642640, 24 hour low: 271.03, 24 hour high: 305.0, 24 hour vwap: 0
assbot: Logged on 10-01-2015 18:56:19; decimation: "But investigators concluded that, whether or not the disclosure harmed national security, it amounted to a significant security breach in the office of one of the nation’s most trusted intelligence leaders. They recommended that Mr. Petraeus face charges, saying lower-ranking officials had been prosecuted for far less."
mircea_popescu: cheeky politicos you got over there.
decimation: yeah, there's no way they will prosecute
decimation: but the little people in usg find that 'unfair'
mircea_popescu: peterl btw, know who invented rsa ?
mircea_popescu: decimation i suspect you don't understand how that world works.
mircea_popescu: xiando: I thought I'd mention that openssl 1.0.1k apparently breaks bitcoin-core << this, of coruse, was discussed for the past few days :)
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla bwahaha slander! i'll bet you 1btc straight up they don't do it this month.
decimation: I note someone put a hefty weight against that gold bet
mircea_popescu: hm enough so im almost tempted to bet.
decimation: to think that gold will crash is also to think that usd will gain. it's possible, with all this 'oil shock' working its way around
mircea_popescu: gold has a problem of demographic. the only people that think gold is functionally useful as a monetary metal are poor. they may be a numerous echelon, relatively speaking, what's left of the upper middle class proceeding on vague intuition and memories. however, they're poor.
mircea_popescu: and that poor speaks a lot more to power than just money.
mircea_popescu: to everyone else, gold is this quaint horse buggy. no dispute it worked at some point, no desire to go back to that point.
mircea_popescu: no chance of it, either.
joecool: mircea_popescu: i built core off libressl, the response was "it builds?"
mircea_popescu: not much love for de radt in power rangerlandia hm ?
joecool: apparently not
assbot: Obama to Propose Cybersecurity Measures - WSJ ... ( )
decimation: Mr. Obama will also outline proposals to tackle identity theft and expand Internet access.The proposals are part of a White House preview of Mr. Obama’s annual State of the Union address, to be delivered Jan. 20.
decimation: good luck with that
mircea_popescu: joecool anyway, the objection generally given to change in that spot ("that the code being merely correct is not enough assurance") is logically valid.
joecool: it's cool though, they are ditching openssl, i'm sure whatever they replace it with will do a better job :)
mircea_popescu: the exact thing played out once before, "it's cool though, they're ditching bdb, im sure whatever they replace it iwth will do a better job"
mircea_popescu: it could. not in their hands it won't.
joecool: mircea_popescu: oh that was entirely sarcastic, i did not phrase that seriously
adlai: gold is the old world's litecoin
adlai: had our fun, moving along.
mircea_popescu: i was thinking that as i wrote, but then dropped. yes, an apt analogy in many ways. very inept in others tho
adlai: it got me wondering what the old world's bitcoin is, and the least senseless answer is 'bitcoin'
mircea_popescu: nah, the old world's bitcoin is an unexpressed mix of contracts and reputation.
kakobrekla: <mircea_popescu> no chance of it, either. < putin thinks otherwise.
mircea_popescu: yes, well, putin is running a country. if you're running a country too, by all means, cover all bets to the degree he does.
mircea_popescu: makes me wonder where's your nuclear subs, but anyway.
assbot: Are we witnessing the beginning of a civil buttcoin war? : Buttcoin ... ( )
thestringpuller: "It looks like he made his goal in life to be the most detestable person in the internet. (Methinks he is still nowhere near that rank, though.) However he is a precious resource, as an expert bitcoiner who enjoys kicking some of the most sacred cows in bitcoinland."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12150 @ 0.00065872 = 8.0034 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: Fork off ... ( )
mircea_popescu: is that about me ?
cazalla: mircea_popescu, nothing you have not heard before lol
mircea_popescu: aite well iwas writing a lengthy piece, brb.
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 276.25, vol: 37825.31373356 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 271.597, vol: 8362.04945 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 277.71, vol: 30430.02066324 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 279.0, vol: 29.42532153 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 270.617724, vol: 119575.66800000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 280.0, vol: 51.85575948 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 284.113569988, vol: 36.2511054 | Volume-weighted last (1 more message)
Apocalyptic: cazalla, even "It is a possibility that the MP argument is a virtually literal strawman, atop a bonfire, to fuel a flame war that drives up his LTC holdings." ?
undata: wtf is virtually literal
undata: is that like almost true?
Apocalyptic: as sensible as the whole statement
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6550 @ 0.00066802 = 4.3755 BTC [+]
assbot: Fork off ... ( )
thestringpuller: reading stuff like this makes me think of the matrix
thestringpuller: where you get unplugged and see all this crazy shit and at some point you hack back in and see all the dumb people completely unaware of there shit
thestringpuller: allegory of the cave shit yo
thestringpuller: As Louis Armstrong said, "As I think to myself, was I ever this dumb?" LOL
Apocalyptic: BingoBoingo, reads like the only reasonable answer so far
danielpbarron: if the hard fork happens, it should be possible to cycle funds in and out of exchanges that are dumb enough to switch, splitting away real-bitcoin whenever the withdraw gives you an output that hasn't been doublespent yet -- or is this possibility too good to be true?
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: May be possible. I'd count double spending your coins yourself to seperate forks before using them in anger.
danielpbarron: yes that's what i mean; withdraw, split, send fake-coins back into exchange, repeat
danielpbarron: when "dust settles," exchange is now fractional reserve (if it wasn't already)
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron no, it works just fine. gavincoin has to accept both bitcoin and gavincoin txn. this writes free options to everyone in bitcoin that gavincoin is held to honor regardless.
mircea_popescu: so yes, separate your gavincoins, send to exchange, withdraw. see if it replies with a bitcoin+gavincoin pair, if so separate it again.
mircea_popescu: if not, it's out of bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: (on the theory oldest inputs are favoured)
mircea_popescu: cold wallets may save them to some degree, but it's pretty random.
thestringpuller: in theory, gavincoin will cost more to produce
thestringpuller: the blocks > 1mb
thestringpuller: the gigachain is more expensive in nature no?
Apocalyptic: this would work only until the input the exchange is spending for your withdrawal is on both chains
mircea_popescu: i guess it would.
mircea_popescu: Apocalyptic hence "if it doesn't, it's out of bitcoins"
Apocalyptic: indeed
mircea_popescu: working on the assumption of naive exchange, of course.
mircea_popescu: in practice i';d expect them to separate their funds immediately, and only pay out gavincoins.
mircea_popescu: so they scam the userbase more than the userbase scams them
thestringpuller: also, isn't it impossible to guarentee gigachain has 1:1 parity with main-chain?
mircea_popescu: how do you mean ?
thestringpuller: they would have to wait for main-chain to mint
thestringpuller: then include all transactions in main chain
thestringpuller: then add more then mint it
mircea_popescu: heh somehow i doubt that's how it'l lwork.
thestringpuller: by statistics alone, the transaction will very greatly in each chain
thestringpuller: so in order to defend the attack gavin would have to include code to keep 1:1 parity with the main-chain while his blocks are minted
mircea_popescu: it wouldn't defend.
thestringpuller: how he does that, i dunno and I don't care
thestringpuller: not commpletely defend, just make it so doors are wide open
mircea_popescu: 1 tx is say 400 bytes. if i split 1k btc into 1k 1 btc txn that's 400kb. if i dump 400kb on the network as it is now, about half would be put into a block immediately.
mircea_popescu: whereas in gavincoin, all would go in.
mircea_popescu: thus, i split half already.
thestringpuller: exactly.
thestringpuller: even with 1:1 parity, you still get
mircea_popescu: so the only way to have bitcoin is 1:1 identity in all respects.
mircea_popescu: which is as it should be, really.
thestringpuller: transactions in gigachain that won't exist in main chain
thestringpuller: funny how even trying to dumb the article down, people still don't get that
thestringpuller: i even made a cute little diagram
mircea_popescu: i dunno what';s not to get
thestringpuller: i guess we just don't know how bitcoin works amirite?
mircea_popescu: this is likely.
mircea_popescu: anyway, this is exactly like that alt coin that went nowhere which was going to give everyone with bitcoin as many of the altcoin as they had bitcoin
mircea_popescu: i forget its name, but it doesn't matter, the principle is the same.
danielpbarron: the justdice thing
mircea_popescu: the author thought he "covered" the economics involved. then it turned out the author had no fucking idea.
mircea_popescu: was that it ? pretty sure there was one before
mircea_popescu: rigth at the time keiser was pushing his aurora scam
BingoBoingo: !up fff
BingoBoingo: !up SnakePls_
BingoBoingo: !up jordandotdev
kakobrekla: dont break the thing now.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla did bitstamp ever send teh documents ?
kakobrekla: not yet, but its weekend now, they are prolly drinking in some bar.
mircea_popescu: in sf ?!
mircea_popescu: maybe starbux
kakobrekla: they dont have bars there?
mircea_popescu: a) you can't smoke ; b) alcohol is bad for you mkay
adlai: "So I think the lack of a real computer science today, and the lack of real software engineering today, is partly due to this pop culture [of the personal computer]."
assbot: A Conversation with Alan Kay - ACM Queue ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18720 @ 0.00065069 = 12.1809 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13084 @ 0.00066898 = 8.7529 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6416 @ 0.0006749 = 4.3302 BTC [+]
thestringpuller: "That's my point. Before you kick a sleeping tiger that has no teeth make sure you can see his gums"
scoopbot: New post on BTC Scoop by peter:
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20650 @ 0.0006749 = 13.9367 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: afternoon, gents
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6850 @ 0.00067109 = 4.597 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26700 @ 0.00067109 = 17.9181 BTC [-]
scoopbot: New post on BTC Scoop by peter:
Apocalyptic: PeterL, the link on "reported" is broken
PeterL: fixed, thanks
ben_vulpes: stan the key you signed those patches with has expired
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform ^^
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it was updated
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: resync your gpg
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5450 @ 0.00067109 = 3.6574 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: (am i the only one who still expires keys?)
thestringpuller: asciilifeform i hope they model an AI construct after you one day.
thestringpuller: i'd love to have asciilifeform AI controlling my house
thestringpuller: like JARVIS in Iron Man.
assbot: BitPay Lays Off 9 Employees Today | ... ( )
mircea_popescu: so it begins huh.
thestringpuller: funny how bitstamp's "survival" is front page news but this isn't
asciilifeform: it had employees !?!
thestringpuller: ;;google bitpay layoffs
gribble: BitPay Lays Off 9 Employees Today | <>; | Bitcoin News, Views & Commentary: <>; Richard Branson Bitpay Statement - Business Insider: <>
PeterL: speaking of bitpay ... are you ever going to put F.DERP shares for sale?
asciilifeform was quite certain that it consisted of a perl script or two
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: i toured the offices. they have like 30+ employees
thestringpuller: what they do I do not know
thestringpuller: s/have/had
PeterL: I suppose they could be marketing, trying to get companies to sign up for their service?
ben_vulpes: "socal media"
ben_vulpes: (not a typo)
PeterL: are they located in socal?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: try sokal media
ben_vulpes: PeterL: 'tis a reference to the homeland of the social networks
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: PeterL yeh gotta do that. i will yes.
PeterL: but wouldn't that be in Northern California?
ben_vulpes: it's all somalia to me
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes weren'tthey in florida or something ?
PeterL: lol, close enough
ben_vulpes: jeez guys leave my shitty puns alone
mircea_popescu: anyway, socal is where the really easy skanks / surfer dudes / rednecks live.
PeterL: ha, I can be hard to please sometimes
PeterL: Socal has nice weather, but the people ruin it
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28100 @ 0.00064987 = 18.2613 BTC [-] {4}
PeterL: looks like the person who bid based on the 10X valuation mistake finally removed their bid
ben_vulpes: bruce oreck is my hero
PeterL: do tell, why?
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: where is this long article you've been working on all day?
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller bout halfway done it's a scandal!
mircea_popescu: i don't mean the article's a scandal, i just mean, it being so long is scandalous.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27551 @ 0.00064035 = 17.6423 BTC [-] {4}
thestringpuller: !up shovel_boss_
thestringpuller: !up the_real_john_ga
shovel_boss_: why did i get up
thestringpuller: you joined channel?
thestringpuller: force of habit
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what on earth do you have against kalash ?! i keep wondering.
mircea_popescu: nothing! i have nothing against ice breakers and atomic shelters, either. but i don't own any!
mircea_popescu: i don't go down the street carrying a horse. or a boat.
mircea_popescu: they're great, but...
asciilifeform: the article phrased a little differently: 'smartphone... much like ak... simply not useful'
mircea_popescu: not UNIVERSALLY useful
asciilifeform: hence confused.
mircea_popescu: it's not superman's fucking cape already.
mircea_popescu: what'd you do with it ? shoot someone ?
asciilifeform: scalpel also not universally useful.
mircea_popescu: if you kill fifty people a day and it's giving you carpal, get an ak do it faster. that i see.
mircea_popescu: you've never killed anyone ? what's a rifle to you ? get a dildo.
ben_vulpes: dafuq does this dishwasher get off claiming a "smart wash" mode?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: envirowhinerism
ben_vulpes: what kinds of smarts can the thing possibly have
ben_vulpes: now the washing machine can at least measure moments of inertia, and make some kind of guess about how much water to derp into itself, that i'll scowlingly perhaps accept if i'm in a generous mood.
asciilifeform: smart as in 'smart free speech.'
ben_vulpes: but the dishwasher!?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: "phree"
undata: maybe it measures how turdly the water draining out the bottom is? iono
undata: some kenmore one claims to detect the turdliness of the dishes themselves
thestringpuller: should I start watering my plants with gatorade yet?
asciilifeform: elektrolytes!
assbot: Elmer__FUD comments on Peter Todd on Twitter: "With Bitstamp on Amazon AWS, there's a high probability that some Three Letter Agency has a copy of their databases; expect zero privacy." ... ( )
thestringpuller: ;;google "I'm so startled"
gribble: Preview Clip - I'm So Startled! - Video Clip | South Park Studios: <>; So Startled - YouTube: <>; I'm so STARTLED - YouTube: <>
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7275 @ 0.0006762 = 4.9194 BTC [+] {2}
asciilifeform puts for the record that he is very much looking forward to the first case of goxian btc theft that can only be explained by an overenthusiastic politruk and his root pw.
thestringpuller: "Oops I accidentally copy pasted this password wrong."
asciilifeform: you'll know gotterdammerung isn't far when usg btc-fiat exchange handlers start lifting from the pots, in broad daylight, and leaving their 'patients' to take the blame.
asciilifeform: or what, you didn't think 'kyc' extends to private keys?
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> [] the default change behaviour is asinine (owing to how it destroys wallet backup as a concept) but i cannot recall how it can be seen as 'vulnerable' << wallet notion itself is asinine
ben_vulpes: or rather, notion that bitcoind should bear responsibility for tracking your coinholdings.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: one can conceive of 'wallet' that doesn't try to abstract over the actual mechanics of bitcoin
ben_vulpes: lol one can concieve of all sorts of things asciilifeform
kakobrekla: betmoose declined my offer. :(
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: surprised ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: how would you propose the user is to keep track of his coin ?
ben_vulpes: spreadsheet or org mode file should be adequate for the user of "angry five"
kakobrekla: well i wasnt expecting an answer at all tbh.
thestringpuller: who needs a wallet when you can just create the transaction offline, and then feed the finalized thing to the node
ben_vulpes: ^^ that behavior actually blows the wallet concept entirely pu
thestringpuller: have no idea why they haven't split the node from the wallet
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: we discussed splitting
undata: yeah, given a sane interface to feed transactions all manner of other programs can do as they please
asciilifeform: it seems like an utterly obvious and necessary thing to me
ben_vulpes: <thestringpuller> have no idea why they haven't split the node from the wallet << mostly time.
asciilifeform: private keys belong on airgapped machine
thestringpuller: well in general.
ben_vulpes: raw transaction api backport's not totally trivial.
thestringpuller: fucking bitpay with their nodejs wallet-core-thingamafucker
thestringpuller: i'd revel in conformal's products if it wasn't written in GO
ben_vulpes: thestringpuller: oh tchyeah that thing's considered harmful.
ben_vulpes: ah, what's wrong with go, thestringpuller?
thestringpuller: i don't know it?
ben_vulpes: just another *lang
asciilifeform: single-vendor turdware ?
thestringpuller: ^- this should be used more often
ben_vulpes: i smell toe jam cooking
thestringpuller: This is how I will describe SAP for now on.
asciilifeform: what's toe jam cooking ?
ben_vulpes: !s stallman toe jam
assbot: 0 results for 'stallman toe jam' :
ben_vulpes: ;;google stallman toe jam
gribble: Richard Stallman Eats Something From His Foot - YouTube: <>; The Hacker Guru With the World's Best Tour Rider - Gawker: <>; Richard Stallman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <>
thestringpuller: Yea he literally eats something from his foot
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you might enjoy last night's thread about this very thing.
assbot: Logged on 10-01-2015 06:34:07; asciilifeform: re: rms and his oddities, i'd note that quite a few (most?) folks would end up regarded as similarly odd, if they somehow were set free to do wtf they pleased
thestringpuller: asciilifeform would enjoi rick and morty
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i actually saw it.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12524 @ 0.00067745 = 8.4844 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: i'll get there eventually, asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: <ben_vulpes> but the dishwasher!? << it probably uses less water if you put less clothes in
ben_vulpes: i musta been putting the wrong objects in the wrong boxes this whole time.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "I don't perceive a smartphone's worth having. Much like an AK-47, if not for the same reason." << i think it's clearly stated. like an assault rifle, a smartphone's not worth having. not for the same reason tho, but nevertheless, not worth having.
ben_vulpes goes to swap dishwasher and laundry machine loads
thestringpuller: one day future asciilifeform will show up in a delorean talking like Christopher Lloyd. this is when my life will truly begin.
thestringpuller: anyhow I'm going to go get two birds stoned at once
ben_vulpes: thestringpuller: smokes. let's go.
mircea_popescu: "Whoever stands between progress in Bitcoin should be ignored."
mircea_popescu: lol cazalla the derps are precious.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'march from me to the next oak tree.'
mircea_popescu: apparently the libertards are actually retarded enough to have misapprehended bitcoin as some sort of ally for their stuff.
asciilifeform: ^ i noticed this when writing the 'mpex review' article
undata: mircea_popescu: some, most aren't intelligent enough to grasp it at a surface level
mircea_popescu: sort-of like the way the penguin died out.
mircea_popescu: undata right. "men with guns ? wheee they came to play!"
undata: when I was younger I thought Ron Paul was the way
undata: it only took a few encounters with that crowd to decide otherwise
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: interestingly, back when there was a roughly similar 'messianic' cargo cult around pgp (the original pgp) - the folks involved more or less missed all the interesting implications of their toy.
undata was raised by "paleoconservatives"
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2234 @ 0.00088999 = 1.9882 BTC [-] {6}
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform perhaps for the same reasons.
asciilifeform: for exactly same reasons
cazalla: mircea_popescu, we'll see how much of their derping translate into traffic.. that thread is 2nd most popular on bitcointalk today according to
mircea_popescu: cazalla if it does translate into traffic you'll see it as a worsening of the demographic quality lol.
cazalla: if we're lucky, some will stop by here having read it
asciilifeform: i'll take the liberty of quoting old article of mine: ' I can’t help but picture a flashlight or a radio set, left behind in the wilderness by geologists, to be picked up later by some Stone Age aboriginals; to be fought over and worshiped. Until the batteries run out. But the batteries have not yet run out! The flashlight shines, the radio plays. Let’s listen and hear what it plays. '
mircea_popescu: pgp seems to be living a nice 2nd youth these days tho
asciilifeform: savages, by definition, cannot properly apparehend a flashlight.
asciilifeform: the more furious their activity around it, the more folly. they will come no closer to understanding, e.g., battery
mircea_popescu: the definition of savages, you will notice, is formal not substantial.
mircea_popescu: references to formal definitions as "by the very definition" are shaky.
asciilifeform: it's a comic book picture, the image
asciilifeform: unfortunately applies to a number of very real people
mircea_popescu: that it does.
mircea_popescu: kinda why a worldwithout selection wouldbe so sad
asciilifeform racks brain to recall the film where a stone age tribe finds glass bottle
assbot: The Gods Must Be Crazy (1980) - IMDb ... ( )
ben_vulpes: "the gods must be crazy"
ben_vulpes imagines watching this flick with a typical progre
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes you live in a good town for that, neh ?
mircea_popescu: pick one up!
mircea_popescu: "If you are worrying about the time when 20MB per block is filled, you are worrying that bitcoin will have 20x more transactions, an increase from the currently throttle of approx 6 per second to around 120 per second. If you are worrying that bitcoin will have 20x more transactions, then you are worrying about it having many more users."
mircea_popescu: it's so funny how the arguments in favour of inflation go with the "general public"
cazalla: turns out the black guy of that movie died 13 years ago.. sorry to be such a debbie downer
mircea_popescu: this could be about silver, or about assignats, or about "the debt ceiling" or anything
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i always found it rather odd that folks who very easily see the problems with, e.g., pollution of the atmosphere or of the sea, fail to grasp an exactly analogous argument re: inflation
mircea_popescu: because they know that money's going to them.
asciilifeform: and whatever's on the other end of the belching smokestack, isn't ?
mircea_popescu: not them.
undata: there's that and also, I think the american system demonstrates just how obedient the average person is
undata: and for those that don't get it, they've just been told not to by their televised tribe
mircea_popescu: "If Popescu chooses to wage war in fragmented environment and can demonstrate some potential to come out victorious I'll likely put my resources behind his efforts. This exclusively because whatever his motivations might be, his basic end goal and my own seem to align."
mircea_popescu: sez tvbconf
mircea_popescu: course, forum has no idea who tvbconf is, but hey
mircea_popescu: what difference does identity make ?! ANONIMITY IS THE SOLUTION!
thestringpuller: the alert keys are currently only held by gavin and theymos?
ben_vulpes: does waiting on apparent victory to ally ever work out?
thestringpuller: in what the WWII sense? or what?
thestringpuller: and i'm not cory or trevor ben_vulpes :P
mircea_popescu: generally it's everyone;s favourite tactic lol
thestringpuller: i'm more of a bubbles
asciilifeform: works great for usa, vultures, etc.
ben_vulpes: i guess it works if your goal is to suck the conqueror's cocks.
mircea_popescu: "I don't think a hard fork would be very difficult, but only if the following two points are taken into account:
mircea_popescu: - Support for the fork should be overwhelming. If 95% of the users agree with the fork, the 5% that don't are pretty much forced to participate. Sure, they can keep running the non-forked version, but coins on that chain will be unlikely to keep their value."
mircea_popescu: people just don't like to read do they.
ben_vulpes: like to lol
thestringpuller: I wonder how Gavin got compromised. Will make for intersting movie one day.
ben_vulpes: i'm guessing dollars.
undata: thestringpuller: compromised how?
thestringpuller: Like did men in black suits just show up and tell him "this is how it's gonna be"
thestringpuller: like being a CIA asset
thestringpuller: or like what
undata: I dunno was poettering compromised?
ben_vulpes: "useful fool" is a phrase asciilifeform's to describe the type
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: due to lenin
asciilifeform: originally, 'useful idiots'
mircea_popescu: (the point that you don't REALLY need to fork bitcoin to "enlarge blocks" is acutally 2 years old)
assbot: Auxiliary block: Increasing max block size with softfork | ... ( )
mircea_popescu: everyone prolly forgot.
thestringpuller: yea it's even linked in the fork off thread
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10515 @ 0.00066518 = 6.9944 BTC [-]
thestringpuller: and people kinda just push it under the carpet
thestringpuller: "Nah. We want a hardfork."
mircea_popescu: so what's next, if this somehow succeeds ? two years from now, liberia uses bitcoin as nat'l currency, suddenly the workers go on strike, ask for double salaries. govt asks gavin to fork btc to give them an extra one-off five million btc to pay the workers.
mircea_popescu: everyone agrees, right ?
mircea_popescu: because a) poor workers, they need it and b) not agreeing would be being against expanded usage of bitcoin
thestringpuller: yay. free bitcoins for everyone!
mircea_popescu: and for that matter c) there's already precedent, the "poor users" who wanted to play but didn't want to pay tx fees were given free stuff before.
ben_vulpes: "bitcoins"
thestringpuller: no we can all buy aston martins
mircea_popescu: how about the idea is that bitcoin adoption means OTHER PEOPLE AND THINGS CHANGE ?
mircea_popescu: we don't change for the fucking world. the world changes. anything and everything.
mircea_popescu: the sec changes its procedures to accomodate my dictates.
mircea_popescu: liberia fucking changes its labor laws to accomodate bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: that sort of thing.
mircea_popescu: wtf are we here, to entertain the world ?
ben_vulpes: it's not really an argument at this point.
mircea_popescu: this isn't tv.
ben_vulpes: just kinda...inevitable.
mircea_popescu: what is ?
ben_vulpes: world changing
ben_vulpes: war too
mircea_popescu: yeah well...
asciilifeform: i'm not sure why it even matters what the gavinists do, so long as the original blockchain continues to run as designed. it then remains a 'hawala' between actual people, and zimbabwe can do whatever
ben_vulpes: usg can mandate its serfs run .10 or w/e
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sure.
assbot: The Hard Fork Missile Crisis | ... ( )
mircea_popescu: the great gift of satoshi is exactly that : we finally have a tool whereby idiots can only hurt themselves.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i suspect that the only reason we do not yet have 'mandatory' national altcoins is that lizardhitler still hopes to wind back clock to '08 or the like
mircea_popescu: bitcoin didn't appreciably suffer because whatever scam, paycoin or w/e was created
mircea_popescu: "just as much a cryptocurrency, only better!"
mircea_popescu: recall realsolid ?
mircea_popescu: same deal here. so gavin is making something that
mircea_popescu: 's "just as much bitcoin as bitcoin only better" ? poopy for him lol.
mircea_popescu: he can pay gmaxwell in it and tip reddit.
thestringpuller: !up hermeto
mircea_popescu: "MP def lost the intellectual battle by the brag of wealth as his last effort to win."
mircea_popescu: check out the many ways you can lose "intellectual battles" lol.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5850 @ 0.00066308 = 3.879 BTC [-]
thestringpuller: this has nothing to do with the block size anymore does it?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'at no point was the FSF an important force on the field.' << though history isn't an experimental science, we are getting a kind of picture of what we may have ended up with much sooner, without rms
thestringpuller: This is about Gavin proving he can hijack the Bitcoin network to whomever his handler may be.
asciilifeform: apple's bsd fork is the likely model
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller more like, proving that he can STILL do it.
asciilifeform: 'embrace&extinguish'
thestringpuller: obilteration of legacy...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but listen. just because the tiny nation of romania made the famine at leningrad possible doth not mean romania was an IMPORTANT player in ww2.
mircea_popescu: and an argument that hitler marginalized antonescu is at best bizarre.
assbot: Logged on 07-01-2015 04:41:46; asciilifeform: naggum had a piece where he confessed to thinking of 'open source' as a weapon, purpose-built for the destruction of a particular evil (microshit)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: finland better example
mircea_popescu: yeah, tellingly no mention of gates makes into morozov's thinking.
mircea_popescu: i guess "important" is not the best word, as im discussing size-importance.
mircea_popescu: not sure how'd that be said better.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18794 @ 0.00067437 = 12.6741 BTC [+] {2}
asciilifeform: 'Stallman complained that anything of good quality remains...' << rms is a counterweight.
asciilifeform: he has some rather peculiar and sometimes contradictory logic behind the -why- of what he does, but so did semmelweis.
asciilifeform: 'gpl' is a weapon. yes, bullet makes bloody holes in things - that's what it was made for. yes, bullet is dumb and goes in whatever direction for no really logical reasons it can explain. big surprise.
thestringpuller: RMS isn't married is he.
asciilifeform: not afaik
thestringpuller: no wonder his eccentricities go unchecked.
asciilifeform: they go unchecked because he has independent income.
thestringpuller: an no she-devil at home to suck his life force away
thestringpuller: good for him tho
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: these are optional
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, all that's true.
mircea_popescu: neither of it enacts rms as some sort of Jesus unless im missing a lot ?
asciilifeform: no jesusen needed
mircea_popescu: i don't propose that rms "shouldn't have" or that fsf shouldn't have been or anything of the sort. but really, the pretense that at some point the situation seriously was, red pill vs blue pill and o'reilly of all people tricked everyone into getting the wrong pill...
mircea_popescu: that's rank nonsense, who ever heard of it.
asciilifeform: see the semmelweis example. it doesn't much matter that he advocated 'wash hands' because the cockroaches and spiders in his head told him to, rather than some better reason.
mircea_popescu: the situation was microsoft or go hang yourself, to which a lot of people who didn't particularly wish to hang themselves reacted as best they could,
mircea_popescu: and in the end it killed ms, but then... google was born, and apple was reborn, and here we are.
asciilifeform: the thing rms was trying to kill in, say, 'right to read', is still alive and well.
mircea_popescu: and this for structural reasons, really.
asciilifeform: arguably microshit is reborn in these other devils, much as ibm was reborn in it
mircea_popescu: if i write something on my slavew's thigh it's none of your damned business wtf.
asciilifeform: usg dept. of computing.
assbot: The Hard Fork Missile Crisis | ... ( )
assbot: The Right to Read- GNU Project - Free Software Foundation ... ( )
asciilifeform: ^ about something rather else
ben_vulpes: also hey qntra would you drop gravatar for the "here's my domain, please serve domain/avatar.png" icon model?
mircea_popescu: holy shit it lives
asciilifeform: it's about the inevitable war of the state and its shitminions vs. the concept of the general-purpose computer.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in one aspect. now make an ethical distinction / moral rule (really nfi why they keep derping about ethics, its all a moral consideration) that resolves that while preserving my slave's thigh.
asciilifeform is somewhat confused
asciilifeform: slave's thigh ?
mircea_popescu: yes. that if i write something on my slave's thigh, it's none of your damned business.
mircea_popescu: state the rms "ethical consideration" w/e it is. "nobody may forbid anyone's access to written strings" ?
asciilifeform: rms was speaking of the right to do as you will with things that are physically yours, without gestapo suddenly breaking down the door and demanding to see if you've multiplied unauthorized numbers
mircea_popescu: but this is a summary instead of the thing.
asciilifeform doesn't go in for the whole 'rights' paradigm and isn't terribly fond of proceeding in that framework
mircea_popescu: how's this rule sound ?
mircea_popescu: well he gotta have something. you can't start a "social movement" out of vague descriptions of desired outcomes
mircea_popescu: there must be some sort of code somewhere.
asciilifeform: rms might say, 'i'll leave you with your slave, you leave me with my computer'
mircea_popescu: what if it's my computer ?
asciilifeform: somethinglikethat
asciilifeform: as in, lent to him ?
mircea_popescu: suppose i make computers, and decide to not sell them. what now ?
mircea_popescu: yes, as in lent to him.
asciilifeform: then presumably he made some oath in return ?
mircea_popescu: "but that's bad"
mircea_popescu: it really doesn't amount to much, if you examine it.
asciilifeform: to follow the analogy, rms was offered computer that came with 'strings' - promise not to xxx, etc. went off to make own.
mircea_popescu: your " without gestapo suddenly breaking down the door and demanding to see if you've multiplied unauthorized numbers" is exactly equivalent i suspect to what i call who are you again ? fuck off, I don't give a shit" sort of approach to third parties of any man owning a computer
mircea_popescu: but these aren't a moral philosophy.
mircea_popescu: pretending the contrary is fine, if one so prefers, but it's still mere pretense.
asciilifeform: i suspect that he spun the whole thing as 'moral philosophy' because if he had readily admitted that gpl was merely a successful hack against usg's 'laws', he would have been killed.
mircea_popescu: or so he feared, or so he cared.
mircea_popescu: anyway, for whatever reason, things still are what they are.
asciilifeform: whereas cultivating 'sainthood', lame as it is, appears to have worked - at least for preserving his skin.
mircea_popescu: not that i think fsf's bad or anything. merely observing that peanuts aren't aeroplanes does not imply a hatred of peanuts.
mircea_popescu: so let's go further in the fertile soil (hint hint) of female simile
asciilifeform: as mere aesthetic preference, i'd rather if folks were able to be honest with themselves and others re: their motivations. but i did not fight rms's war, cannot say 'he oughta have....'
mircea_popescu: if you get married, which is to say, BORROW a woman from her father, and swear an oath
mircea_popescu: may you have now anal sex ? provided you both agree to it ?
mircea_popescu: the traditional answer is no.
mircea_popescu: modernity soundly answered yes.
mircea_popescu: rms' ideas are a sort of "this is computing so elvis never happened".
asciilifeform: reminds of that mortmain thing
mircea_popescu: in a sense.
asciilifeform blew a good 3-4 hours reading about it
mircea_popescu: hehe not wasted time.
mircea_popescu: s perhaps the most informative avenue into the ACTUAL history of this sphere.
mircea_popescu: not re-narrated with a view to make contemporary institutions meaningful and appear sensible.
mircea_popescu: but actually, as it was, with a view to its own self coherence.
asciilifeform: in one sense, jurists have things easy re: mortmain; they at least have the option of going 'no more'
mircea_popescu: only recently.
asciilifeform: go and try reversing, e.g., design space shrinkage in engineering
mircea_popescu: as late as 1880 it was held that such option is not on the table
asciilifeform: aha because 'then may as well the breaking of the tablets, all bets off'
mircea_popescu: and ironically, it seems the old hands were right. it went to shit since then.
mircea_popescu: yep exactly.
mircea_popescu: "paper laws" are quite like paper money.
asciilifeform: sapper - errs once.
asciilifeform: re: rms: i vaguely recall that gpl was invented (conceptually) by his friend & associate, eben moglen
asciilifeform: a jurist
mircea_popescu: here's a question, btw : what's better, to be running the proverbial taxi in new york ? or to be in a later generation, playing exactly the role of pocahontas to various ngos, "look at this nigger injun, how like our own kids he is, and how pretty in that dress!" ?
asciilifeform: who wrote, iirc, 'yes, i despise law; yet i practice it; must a doctor love disease?'
mircea_popescu: lol i recall that.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21005 @ 0.00066187 = 13.9026 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: pocahontas << is this the old russian prison quiz, 'fork in yer eye or once up yer arse ?'
mircea_popescu: no, it's simply looking at the life of one evgheny morozov. for you see stan, little zenja was a country boy that got himself mixed up in the high stakes game of anglo propaganda and intenrational diplomacy!
asciilifeform: rot13 answ: gur cnffvat nafjre vf, nyjnlf, gb gnxr gur sbex. bhtug gb xabj gung gurer ner ab sbexf va gur cevfba. naq rira vs gurer jrer, sne orggre gb ybfr lbhe rlr guna gb or ybjrerq vagb crqrenfgl.
assbot: Evgeny Morozov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i somehow lived life and avoided learning that the fellow who prints the (now mostly junk) books with the animal line drawings on the covers is a demented sv sc4mz0r; or that morozov existed at all
asciilifeform: although
asciilifeform: come to think of it, orlov may have mentioned him once
mircea_popescu: see how corrupting an influence assbot is ?
asciilifeform: identified as a u.s. state dept. muppet
mircea_popescu: what, they print army manuals too /
mircea_popescu: "an idiot's guide to cleanning your boots!"
mircea_popescu: i dunno, was asking.
asciilifeform: there are several, afaik independent, lines of 'for idiots' works
asciilifeform: i actually own a copy of, i shit thee not, 'webtv for dummies'
asciilifeform: as a result of losing a bet in school
mircea_popescu: o wow, webtv
mircea_popescu: that was a bitcoin fork at some point too!
assbot: Digerati - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( )
mircea_popescu: ajhahahaha
mircea_popescu: check this out, the digested.
mircea_popescu: that's how he fucking confuses thiel and kelly. they're all digested, right ? same thing!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so i follow your link to, top of the page ? a very wikipedia-ish request for donations.
mircea_popescu: sleeker than wikipedia's tho. the definitely web 1.0 look of helps.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fsf begs for every coin, aye
asciilifeform: always has
mircea_popescu: obviously it will have to, it's a non profit. no issue with the substance. the form struck me tho.
mircea_popescu: is it that wikipedia has found the bewst way to do this ? or is it that once they did it everyone can follow in that wake ?
asciilifeform: 'digerati', as i understand, encompasses a set of peculiarly wealthy ('dotcom boom', normally, but often barnacled to this or that mega-corp success of some vaguely computerized sort 1980-2000)
asciilifeform: who imagine themselves 'lead thinkers'
asciilifeform: best example i know of, of this animal, is one jaron lanier
asciilifeform: truly grotesque specimen
mircea_popescu: never heard of him.
asciilifeform: strictly zoological interest
asciilifeform: strike that, entomological.
mircea_popescu: some musician or something ?
asciilifeform: not famous for music. but happened to purchase a number of rare instruments, iirc, to pluck at while sitting on golden toilet
asciilifeform: lanier, in particular, isn't a muppet, and even had a number of public good points (wrote at length re: the degeneracy of pediwikia, etc) - but, while reading his material, i continuously found myself asking 'why does this man have money'
mircea_popescu: it's not a crime is it ?
asciilifeform: not the having-money, but being part of that set, in my mind, is an indelible tarnish
asciilifeform: the california degenerates.
mircea_popescu: would you fuck a nazi ?
asciilifeform: depends!
asciilifeform has the utmost difficulty picturing a female nazi other than proverbial 'ilsa, she-wolf of auschwitz'
mircea_popescu: generally i think of the girl that poisoned her brood.
asciilifeform: mrs goebbels ?
mircea_popescu: kinda surprised there's not more art dedicated to her. i'm unaware of more remarkable women in the xxth century.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ever see film 'come and see' ('Иди и смотри') ?
mircea_popescu: nice osunding name huh.
mircea_popescu: idi-i-smotri
mircea_popescu: "During WWII, a Belarusian boy is thrust into the atrocities of war, fighting with a hopelessly unequipped Soviet resistance movement against ruthless German forces. Witnessing scenes of abject terror and surviving horrifying situations, he loses his innocence and then his mind."
mircea_popescu: dude what do they have against bielorussians! it's always them getting fingers caught in doors.
asciilifeform: one memorable scene. germans waste a village, shown in glorious detail (complete with barns nailed shut, set alight, etc, etc). on their way out, get ambushed and mowed down. including their hot chick nurse, but she's not entirely dead. hero (boy) walks along and finds this. takes a look at the chick, who is bleeding and looking seductively at him. then he sees bandage pack on ground. decides to bandage broken stock of his rif
asciilifeform: le instead.
asciilifeform: (why he has rifle? no reason. just found it, while derping his way through the war, miraculously avoiding ending up sausage)
assbot: The aggressive Nazi-bred cows that caused havoc on a modern farm - The Washington Post ... ( )
mircea_popescu: someone should take a yearling dromedary to a skating rink
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