Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2014-08-06 | 2014-08-08 →
mircea_popescu: "an entire fanbase" ? what's that ?
mircea_popescu: "I think Nine Inch Nail's cover of Johnny Cash's "Hurt" was better than the original."
mircea_popescu: ahahah ok good one
decimation: !up thestringpuller
mircea_popescu: ;;seen dreadknight
gribble: dreadknight was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 4 days, 19 hours, and 31 seconds ago: <DreadKnight> that's not how you play frogger
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell dreadknight ever played solforge ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
Vexual: famous last words
Vexual: ohey mp, did you sign up for lawschool yet?
mircea_popescu: takes a while neh ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21200 @ 0.00092543 = 19.6191 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: !up jadne_
Vexual: depends how long you stay i guess
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5535 @ 0.000919 = 5.0867 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31138 @ 0.0009178 = 28.5785 BTC [-]
Vexual: i dunno, one might ace the poop outta one sememster and let a good load of stuff done
RebeccaBitcoin: I have an entropy question
ben_vulpes: these are always fun
RebeccaBitcoin: oooh indeed
RebeccaBitcoin: is this site safe:
RebeccaBitcoin: to make a instant web based wallet you move your mouse around
RebeccaBitcoin: a few seconds later, tada you have a wallet
RebeccaBitcoin: is that mouse movement sae
RebeccaBitcoin: as a method of generating entropy or whatever
Vexual: i use my left hand
RebeccaBitcoin: thank you for that elaborate answer
ben_vulpes: i wonder if its trivially bruteforceable
ben_vulpes: RebeccaBitcoin: thou shalt not mix js and crypto, much less js and entropy.
RebeccaBitcoin: k, but why isn't this safe
RebeccaBitcoin: and if it isn't, how would you hack it
fluffypony: I don't think the mouse movey thing is any worse than the the way /dev/urandom collects entropy from mouse movements / keyboard entry
fluffypony: from an entropy perspective it's a perfectly viable aspect
RebeccaBitcoin: btw, this is owned by Kryptokit (ie Anthony) and his crew
fluffypony: as ben_vulpes points out there are other issues
fluffypony: RebeccaBitcoin: is your aim to have a Bitcoin wallet so you can send and receive Bitcoin, or is your aim to write a scathing review?
ben_vulpes: i mean it said "okay!" after a hilariously short period of time.
ben_vulpes: tengo mucho sospechosa
Vexual: up down left, yeah got it
ben_vulpes: up up down down right a b bitcoin!
fluffypony: ben_vulpes: I guess it's using the normal random available to JS and sprucing it up
ben_vulpes: but is it ====== random?
fluffypony: by some definition of "random"
fluffypony: as in: "omg, Ben's so random, lol"
RebeccaBitcoin: ok, change my question
RebeccaBitcoin: is it safe
ben_vulpes: hell no
ben_vulpes: thou shalt not etc
RebeccaBitcoin: like if I put 10 bitcoins in here
fluffypony: definitely not
RebeccaBitcoin: would they get stolen
ben_vulpes: ;;8ball RebeccaBitcoin ^^
fluffypony: within what time frame
gribble: What are you asking me for?
RebeccaBitcoin: by safe I don't mean nerd safe
ben_vulpes: ;;8ball RebeccaBitcoin ^^
gribble: Come again?
ben_vulpes: ;;8ball will the coins get stolen?
gribble: The outlook is hazy, please ask again later.
RebeccaBitcoin: I mean like reasonably safe
fluffypony: ;;8ball will RebeccaBitcoin's coins get stolen?
gribble: The outlook is good.
RebeccaBitcoin: thank you gribble
fluffypony: well there you go
ben_vulpes: for the bruteforcers...
RebeccaBitcoin: nerd safe vs reasonably safe
Vexual: lol ben
ben_vulpes: meaningless distinction.
fluffypony: RebeccaBitcoin: it's not even reasonably safe, given the track record of web wallets
RebeccaBitcoin: so nerd safe = the type of people who print a paper wallet then toss the printer over niagara fallls
ben_vulpes: no. it's a meaningless distinction.
fluffypony: I'm a nerd, I use Electrum
fluffypony: and it's safe by my standards
peterl: is it a risk to advertise which type of wallet you use?
fluffypony: peterl: nope
Vexual: yes
RebeccaBitcoin: its not a meaningless distinction. Someone told me yesterday that to make a paper wallet I should use a new laptpo, and a new printer, then I should take both and destroy them. Then I should put both in a fire
RebeccaBitcoin: like wtf
fluffypony: RebeccaBitcoin: those people are crazy
fluffypony: there's a middle ground between paranoid and convenient
RebeccaBitcoin: so thats my distinction between reasonably safe and nerd safe
fluffypony: a web wallet is not that middle ground
RebeccaBitcoin: to the earlier question, no, I'm not going to write a scathing review
fluffypony: middle ground is anything where you are entirely, solely, and completely responsible for the safety of your funds
fluffypony: not some third party
RebeccaBitcoin: apparently this is open source
RebeccaBitcoin: and its made by kryptokit
RebeccaBitcoin: which is also open source
RebeccaBitcoin: and you can run it offline
RebeccaBitcoin: my concern is that the mouse movey thing for like 5 seconds isn't all that secure
RebeccaBitcoin: someone else pointed out that there are other issues
ben_vulpes: we're trying to tell you that it ain't secure at all., honey.
RebeccaBitcoin: Ok good.
RebeccaBitcoin: can that be demonstrated
ben_vulpes: who are you again?
mircea_popescu: heya RebeccaBitcoin
RebeccaBitcoin: Mircea is here
RebeccaBitcoin: I was hoping for Bitcoin Pete, but you'll have to do
mircea_popescu: cheeky joo is she.
RebeccaBitcoin: Jewfro > bald
Vexual: zing
mircea_popescu: only if redhaired.
justusranvier: mircea_popescu: Did you ping me before?
RebeccaBitcoin: When does Peter get off work at Burger King?
cazalla: what's this prejudice against bald folk?
ben_vulpes: cazalla: bad genes
RebeccaBitcoin: thats mircea right?
assbot: Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
RebeccaBitcoin: He's rocking a skullet
fluffypony: well I guess the title of the site is a giveaway
mircea_popescu: you wanna see jewfro, and scroll down
assbot: Fototeca de Haur pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
mircea_popescu: justusranvier possibly but now i forget.
RebeccaBitcoin: anyway back to my question
RebeccaBitcoin: I don't know how to do the thing that makes your name light up
RebeccaBitcoin: secure or not
RebeccaBitcoin: Assuming no, why?
mircea_popescu: no dude. listen better.
mircea_popescu: because of many reasons which you will find reading the logs
mircea_popescu: this has been done to death.
RebeccaBitcoin: This particular site has been done to death?
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: we already told her why
decimation: roll dice to generate your ecdsa key :)
mircea_popescu: preferably made out of the bones of your enemies
RebeccaBitcoin: that doesn't explain why
decimation: perfectly level and razor sharp of course
RebeccaBitcoin: if I put 10 bitcoin in a wallet there
RebeccaBitcoin: can any of you steal it
mircea_popescu: (seriously tho, here's a good approach : make your dices out of ice. they will melt, yes, and not be even, yes.
mircea_popescu: BUT IMPREDICTABLY SO)
fluffypony: RebeccaBitcoin: it's not us you should be worried about.
peterl: does having a python script generate a bunch of random dice rolls count as rolling dice?
Vexual: melt roll melt roll
mircea_popescu: RebeccaBitcoin you know we didn't steal any of the OTHER btc that got stolen, either.
mircea_popescu: this is scarcely an argument
decimation: somewhere your python script is calling random() or whatever
mircea_popescu: peterl no, and i hope that was being funny
peterl: right, how random is python's random()?
mircea_popescu: meh-random.
mircea_popescu: like a layer of meh on top of urandom's meh.
decimation: sigh, that's not even the issue, the real issue is how random is your linux or windows or mac's random
decimation: which is basically as good as moving your mouse around
RebeccaBitcoin: argh, now this is a typical nerd debate.
mircea_popescu: decimation not rly. it's not great, but it still takes ethernet disks etc
decimation: yeah it's more than keyboard mouse I know
mircea_popescu: RebeccaBitcoin you know, before you can think yourself better than everyone else you must put your tits in the tit gallery.
RebeccaBitcoin: "If I compile the php script and then reconcile it with a mysql database, then reconfigure it to your home computer's settings I can find your brain wallet"
RebeccaBitcoin: @mircea asshole
cazalla: RebeccaBitcoin, you bought ether, correct? theft is not a concern if you're giving your bitcoins away
mircea_popescu: i can find your brain wallet right now. sha512sum("iamhotshit");
RebeccaBitcoin: Yes, I did buy some ether
asciilifeform: nerd safe = the type of people who print a paper wallet then toss the printer << this subject is worth exploring at length
decimation: rebeccabitcoin, ultimately what you are asking is "audit my security" which involves multiple levels of unkonown software
RebeccaBitcoin: and yes I realize I should ahve just bought it from mircea instead
fluffypony: RebeccaBitcoin: again - for ordinary users you simply need something that is completely under your control, and for your purposes Electrum is fine. It is small and lightweight, it doesn't download the full blockchain (about 20mb in downloads is all it needs thus far), and it has a 12 word mnemonic you write down to backup your wallet. It's literally all I need.
decimation: to do a proper job would require thousands of good man hours, which you can't afford
asciilifeform: in oil prospecting, salvage diving, etc. there is a concept where safety measures that the crew will not follow because they 'seen ridiculous' - are useless
assbot: Electrum Bitcoin Wallet
fluffypony: there
fluffypony: problem solved.
RebeccaBitcoin: I'm obviously not asking for that reason
RebeccaBitcoin: I'm not a retard, my cold storage is safe
fluffypony: Electrum isn't cold storage, it's a hot wallet to use every day
RebeccaBitcoin: brain wallet
RebeccaBitcoin: Becky's coins
asciilifeform: i still can't fathom what people mean when they ask 'is X safe'
asciilifeform: safe for what?
decimation: asciilifeform this is basically "don't blame the pilot" in the air-crash investigations
RebeccaBitcoin: Anthony Diloilorio
RebeccaBitcoin: made kryptoikit
Vexual: you wouldn't discard a printer
decimation: yes, you put a n00b who failed landing 101 in the cockpit, how did that happen?
fluffypony: asciilifeform: now you understand why those "trust seals" are so popular on websites :-P
RebeccaBitcoin: now he made this
RebeccaBitcoin: I assume not him, but his slaves
RebeccaBitcoin: or whatever
fluffypony: RebeccaBitcoin: it doesn't matter who made it
RebeccaBitcoin: sure it does
fluffypony: not really
decimation: fluffypony is right, just use electrum
RebeccaBitcoin: Next time someone is like "omg Rebecca Rushwallet is awesome you should totally use it" - I want to be able to say "No, its not safe because blah blah blah"
fluffypony: you're assuming that he is impervious to stupidity or error
fluffypony: which is beyond unlikely
RebeccaBitcoin: Obviously you're completely misreading this. Anthony is a little dweeb.
decimation: rebeccabitcoin nothing that runs on a von neumann machine connected to the internet using unaudited untrusted firmware is safe
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> safe for what? << maid safe.
asciilifeform: RebeccaBitcoin: seems like two separate questions in your original question. 1) mouse movement as method of generating key and 2) particular web-based gizmo for doing so
RebeccaBitcoin: 1) Is mouse movement, as used in safe?
RebeccaBitcoin: 2) If safe
decimation: 3.) does the javascript upload privkey to the server?
RebeccaBitcoin: Safe = If I put 10btc in a wallet and post the public key here, will it get stolen within 90 days
RebeccaBitcoin: apparently not
RebeccaBitcoin: they say open source but I can't find the source
asciilifeform: exercise for student (or bored person of any other species) - log a typical 'mouse wiggle' session; fit to curves (your choice.)
decimation: if you can't find the source of the javascript on your webpage you are in a world of hurt
RebeccaBitcoin: is it that easy?
RebeccaBitcoin: I just open safari's developer stuff and click source?
decimation: you can't run it if you don't have the source
decimation: that being said, it might be compressed/obfuscated
asciilifeform: RebeccaBitcoin: will it get stolen within 90 days << this is an uncommonly poor tactic (yes, popular in the 'computer insecurity' business, but it sucks still) - would you test, say, a door lock this way?
asciilifeform: 'house not burgled in 90 days - perfect lock'
kakobrekla: on the other hand, locks safety is defined by how much time it takes to break it.
RebeccaBitcoin: I can pick my apartment lock in approximately 5 minutes
kakobrekla: (not saying its not stupid!)
asciilifeform: but would you assume burglars will line up to try, simply by virtue of you having wished it?
RebeccaBitcoin: if I could pick it in 30 seconds I would concerned
decimation: afaik high-leve usg safes are 2 hours
asciilifeform: decimation: nitpick. usg-blessed safes are optimized for tamper-evidence, rather than absolute strength
RebeccaBitcoin: if I put money in a wallet
RebeccaBitcoin: give you the public key
asciilifeform: (one usually is more concerned that seekrit dokument isn't stolen undetected, rather than mere fact of theft)
RebeccaBitcoin: inform you its on rush wallet
fluffypony: RebeccaBitcoin: if you put 10 BTC in a wallet and posted about it on Reddit and some netsec mailing lists and gave it 90 days that would be a concrete test
RebeccaBitcoin: and say "Go"
RebeccaBitcoin: and it takes you more than 90 days to crack it, I would call it "reaosnably safe"
asciilifeform: RebeccaBitcoin: but why would we 'go' ?
decimation: I think they distinguish between overt and covert entry
RebeccaBitcoin: You would "go" because with 10 coins you could safely move out of your moms basement
asciilifeform: RebeccaBitcoin: pill against your particular system may well be worth > 10 btc.
decimation: "Class 6 safes are used for the storage of documents, maps & drawings. They provide protection against 30 minutes of covert entry & 20 hours of surreptitious entry. Class 5 safes are used for the storage of documents, weapons, drugs, funds, sensitive materials & equipment. Class 5 safes have the same covert & surreptitious entry protection as class 6 safes but they also protect
assbot: Frequently Asked Questions|
decimation: against 10 minutes of forced entry."
asciilifeform: RebeccaBitcoin: so attacker could move from mother's basement into a palace, were he to sell the attack to a higher bidder, vs. your 10 merely moves him to a new flat.
fluffypony: there's that too
mircea_popescu: <RebeccaBitcoin> and it takes you more than 90 days to crack it, I would call it "reaosnably safe" << takes about two hours, if someone could be arsed.
mircea_popescu: someone here could not be arsed for 10btc, and someone who could be arsed ain't here.
mircea_popescu: yes really.
Vexual: or the attacker has some benefit from showing the attack'
RebeccaBitcoin: you could crack rush wallet in 2 hours?
mircea_popescu: some derp-ass "mouse clicks" js webwallet ?
mircea_popescu: it's just hashing you know. like mining/
RebeccaBitcoin: yes I realize that
RebeccaBitcoin: if you put your brilliant mind to it, how long would it take you to crack
mircea_popescu: you seem to realise somehow halfway in the middle.
mircea_popescu: there';s no mind involved. asciilifeform already told you the process.
fluffypony: mircea_popescu is a cracker now?
FabianB: RebeccaBitcoin: main concern with sites like rushwallet are probably not third-parties but the site owners themselfes, private key is in the url, readable by javascript; even if the private key is not read by current js, they can change it any second, read it, send it to their server
fluffypony: seriously - there are people that specialise in this that could probably do it faster than anyone here, and even we can ascertain what the threat model is
asciilifeform: RebeccaBitcoin: if you were to set to it, how long would it take you to build a small two-cycle petrol engine?
decimation: from ore?
Vexual: coupla days
RebeccaBitcoin: I'm not sure what that is
Vexual: yep
RebeccaBitcoin: my first step would be to copy and paste that to craiglist
RebeccaBitcoin: then hire someone
RebeccaBitcoin: then tada, I'm done
decimation: orlov is right
asciilifeform: RebeccaBitcoin: then you learn another useful lesson - what a professional machinist charges.
asciilifeform: (you'll be quite surprised.)
asciilifeform: (and possibly tempted to change professions)
RebeccaBitcoin: I'm an aspiring hacker
Vexual: then build it offline and run at it
RebeccaBitcoin: k heres my plan
decimation: that's assuming that you designed the parts too, he's gonna charge way more if you need design help
RebeccaBitcoin: take rush wallet
RebeccaBitcoin: put it online
RebeccaBitcoin: on a different domain
RebeccaBitcoin: use your stealy stuff that records the private key
RebeccaBitcoin: set up a bot to monitor the balances of the private keys
RebeccaBitcoin: get 29823832892389 coinz
RebeccaBitcoin: put those coins on mpex
fluffypony: ok have fun
fluffypony: let us know how it goes
decimation: one can design black boxes with assumptions inside all day; what matters is the ability to master the details implict in all the assumptions being made
asciilifeform: brings to mind an ancient recipe for chicken soup (attributed to the gypsies, but accounts vary)
asciilifeform: 1) find a chicken.
RebeccaBitcoin: So in conclusion: I should not store any coins with rush wallet, unless the amount is such that I don't mind losing them.
asciilifeform: 1) get 29823832892389 ...
kakobrekla: 121 ?
fluffypony: RebeccaBitcoin: yes
decimation: well, what is certainly true is that you have run the privkey generator on your own machine, using reasonably open software, you have more (not absolute) confidence that your keys are not compromised
ben_vulpes: RebeccaBitcoin: mind you, that amount can change rapidly based on their fiat denomination, and your lazy self might decline to move them until it's too late.
ben_vulpes: there's a saying
ben_vulpes: "anything worth doing is worth doing well".
decimation: absolute confidence is impossible until asciilifeform gets his room-sized fpga
ben_vulpes: treat your satoshis well and your integer btc will treat you well.
asciilifeform: decimation: nope. until you (in general sense of 'you') do...
decimation: heh yeah well we need to find a sufficiently rich prince
RebeccaBitcoin: Before this conversation got out of hand, i was mainly referring to the ability of this site to generate a random wallet. I've read before that mouse entropy is crap. While there are 2892383289 ^298289 possible private keys for Bitcoin, a wallet like this might be much more limited. As such, a system like this might only be capable of generating a
RebeccaBitcoin: certain number of private keys, thus making the possibliity of hashing all of the possibilities possible, then draining any accounts.
asciilifeform: good summary re: mouse in principle
ben_vulpes: RebeccaBitcoin: <ben_vulpes> i wonder if its trivially bruteforceable
decimation: asciilifeform stated this above, more or less
RebeccaBitcoin: So yes, right?
asciilifeform: but, other fact, question of what was actually served up to you when you browse the site on a particular occasion.
decimation: and what your client transmits in response
RebeccaBitcoin: Assuming I download the source code, it seems legit, I put it on an offline computer.
RebeccaBitcoin: no uploading, no shady shit
decimation: what would be the point of an offline web wallet?
mircea_popescu: fluffypony im a jack of all trades
asciilifeform: RebeccaBitcoin: work involved in determining 'legit' is roughly equal to writing your own.
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: *off
asciilifeform: larger, in most cases.
Vexual: ^so fro
fluffypony makes joke
RebeccaBitcoin: Thats pretty much all I wanted to know
RebeccaBitcoin: thank you
kakobrekla: now you know its not practical to be safe.
mircea_popescu: omg the zingers tonight
mircea_popescu: <decimation> absolute confidence is impossible until asciilifeform gets his room-sized fpga << but then where would he sleep ?
mircea_popescu: oh snap.
asciilifeform: novice can be considered 'graduated' and teachable, e.g. actual maths, when she stops saying 'safe' except to refer to a heavy metal box
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think she was just playing dumb.
decimation: not that said box is safe, either
asciilifeform kicks old safe
ben_vulpes: don't hurt yourself now
Vexual: fuck that kick it harder
RebeccaBitcoin: how can I change my name to the different colours that you guys use
RebeccaBitcoin: Mircea isblue
RebeccaBitcoin: ben is an ugly yellow
RebeccaBitcoin: decimation is somewhat red/maroon
kakobrekla: he just chinese.
fluffypony: you can't - it's whatever IRC client you're using colouring it
asciilifeform: you gotta love how pcb track to solenoid driver FET is exposed under the rubber keypad
fluffypony: your name is poo brown to me
asciilifeform: wonder if that's the case on all of these 'electric' safes.
ben_vulpes: RebeccaBitcoin: you gotta get a real client, for starters.
Vexual: im getting troll pink from you rebeecca
Vexual: shit, im comprimised
decimation: << asciilifeform note USG uses electric locks... with a dial
assbot: X-09 Locks - GSA Approved High Security Safe Locks
asciilifeform: decimation: a very peculiar golden toilet. handle turns generator.
asciilifeform: decimation: you can pick these up on 'ebay' to play with. couple 100 usd.
decimation: it seems to me that the few mechanical inputs the better off you are
decimation: a keypad seems like a terrible design for sensitive data entry
RebeccaBitcoin: ya cause you can buy one of those heat things
RebeccaBitcoin: someone types it in, then a few mins later, take the thermal image
RebeccaBitcoin: find the secret code
Vexual: then you watch that drillbit get real hot
ben_vulpes: or dust for oil
decimation: re: drillbit << even usg safes are rated for only 10 minutes forced entry
ben_vulpes: or any million of other tricks
decimation: presumably the jackbooted thugs arrive before that time
RebeccaBitcoin: what's that term
RebeccaBitcoin: obscurity security
RebeccaBitcoin: or something
Vexual: like buy a known safe, and move the intenals?
RebeccaBitcoin: like buy a known safe and put nothing in it
RebeccaBitcoin: then put your wads of cash in a hidden place
RebeccaBitcoin: like the dryer
ben_vulpes: ultimately, obscurity is your last line of defense.
kakobrekla: (under the safe)
RebeccaBitcoin: under the safe is a horrible idea
RebeccaBitcoin: they steal it
RebeccaBitcoin: are like "hey bro check it, there's money under it"
Vexual: what about a gps inside that only sees the sun if the crack it with one of those doorknocker things that jerusalem has
mircea_popescu: <RebeccaBitcoin> like the dryer << me goes to craigslist with that information
Vexual: 10 minutes becomes useful
decimation: Israel wants to outlaw cash... so only outlaws use cash
assbot: A Cashless Society in the World of Fiat | Theden | Thedening the West
decimation: as this blog points out, the real reason they are doing this is to bar another escape hatch from the bezzle economy
decimation: this will only make bitcoin look better of course, as each government reduces its fiat to another altcoin (premined of course)
mircea_popescu: Israel wants to outlaw cash << israel needs to fucking burn already.
mircea_popescu: RebeccaBitcoin: Then I should put both in a fire >>>
assbot: Spy stuff pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
decimation: well, going down this road would be a good first step
mircea_popescu: i mean all the sympathy for them people being surrounded by a bunch of arab derpage, which they consistently own bareback.
mircea_popescu: however... they're like the vanguard of fucktarded socialistoid idiocy.
RebeccaBitcoin: I kinda like israel
fluffypony: but is Israel safe?
fluffypony: I don't mean paramilitary safe, but safe for ordinary people
mircea_popescu: safer than south africa for ordinary women, i gather :D
fluffypony: hah hah
fluffypony: touché
RebeccaBitcoin: south africa is scary
RebeccaBitcoin: I went there a few years ago and wtf
fluffypony: RebeccaBitcoin: which prat?
fluffypony: *part
RebeccaBitcoin: Pretoria
fluffypony: yeah PTA is shitty
fluffypony: nobody goes to PTA unless you have to
fluffypony: Cape Town -> Garden Route -> Durban and surrounds -> Sun City -> Kruger Park
decimation: is that where all the aliens (I mean rhodesians) live?
fluffypony: will take you about 4 weeks to do that route, and it's incredible
fluffypony: decimation: the Rhodesians are mostly in Johannesburg
fluffypony: Pretoria is the vanguard of old-school white Afrikaans-hood
decimation: where's the skyscraper that has filled with squatters and shit?
fluffypony: although given its political prominance they're been shuttered off to the suburbs
fluffypony: Johannesburg
fluffypony: Ponte Tower
fluffypony: we used to go up there when I was a kid
decimation: sad story that
fluffypony: yeah, the building ownership thing was a fuckup
decimation: Why wouldn't pretoria be a nice place if it's old-school Afrikaans?
fluffypony: it's incredibly, incredibly boring
fluffypony: and ugly, except when the Jacaranda trees come into bloom
RebeccaBitcoin: And from another perspective, doesn't seem "safe" ;p
fluffypony: then you drive down the streets with these beautiful purple blossoms everywhere
mircea_popescu: is pretoria like a sort of pennsylvania, amish et all ?
mircea_popescu: or how old school is old school ?
fluffypony: RebeccaBitcoin: Pretoria is quite safe, certainly much safer for an adventurous tourist than Johannesburg where tourists are best kept to touristy areas
decimation: my favorite south africa movie is "zulu". makes me want to visit natal
RebeccaBitcoin: It is safe by South African standards
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 48604 @ 0.00004237 = 2.0594 BTC [-] {4}
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: nah, Afrikaaners aren't like that at all, more like generally overweight, beer and whisky loving, meat-bbq'ing biltong eating men and women
mircea_popescu: ;;ud biltong
gribble: | biltong. Meat, usually beef, that is salted / spiced and cut into strips and dried in the sun. Popular snack in Southern Africa. I like really fresh, wet biltong.
fluffypony: by old-school I mean that a lot of the older ones especially struggle to shed the ingrained views that Apartheid taught them
decimation: fluffypony do you see post-Apartheid south africa going the way of Zimbabwae?
RebeccaBitcoin: I see south africa getting worse and worse
fluffypony: RebeccaBitcoin: safe by most standards - just like any city in the world, there are areas you'd generally avoid unless you were familiar with it
fluffypony: RebeccaBitcoin: worse? far from it.
RebeccaBitcoin: You think South Africa is getting better as a whole?
fluffypony: decimation: nope - too many overseas companies with skin in the game, they won't let a despot ruin their income ;)
fluffypony: RebeccaBitcoin: yes, most assuredly, from all socioeconomic aspects
decimation: I donno, I recall that there were plenty of overseas companies involved in Rhodesia...
mircea_popescu: <fluffypony> decimation: nope - too many overseas companies with skin in the game, they won't let a despot ruin their income ;) <<< this is at best naive.
decimation: and the Congo too for that matter
mircea_popescu: and in... the ukraine.
fluffypony: decimation: Zim's bigger problem was its inability to oust Bob quickly
fluffypony: Congo, Ukraine, and Rhodesia aren't quite comparable
fluffypony: 60% of the trade in the whole of Africa is done in Gauteng
mircea_popescu: under your criteria, specifically, a lot of foreign investment
RebeccaBitcoin: I don't know enough about it to really have a valid opinion
fluffypony: when Mbeki was providing staid, but ineffectual, leadership there were hands that moved him out the way
RebeccaBitcoin: I've heard from others that it is "continuing to go downhill" but that's based on a limited number of people, mostly from cape town
fluffypony: which is relatively easy - the ANC is the dominant political party, the president of the country is the elected leader of said party
fluffypony: so to remove him all you have to do is have a change of hands within the party
decimation: but how do you remove the ANC?
mircea_popescu: so how is a one party arrangement an improvement ?
fluffypony: RebeccaBitcoin: expats or still living here?
fluffypony: decimation: you won't
fluffypony: not for many years
fluffypony: they have "struggle credentials" still going for them (as in they fought Apartheid)
fluffypony: and that isn't something you can breeze past politically
fluffypony: RebeccaBitcoin: South African expats are literally the worst, they're a running joke on the /r/southafrica sub-reddit
pete_dushenski: RebeccaBitcoin: ask, and ye shall receive
RebeccaBitcoin: you missed my questions about entropy
fluffypony: they're all like "every week I saw someone murdered right outside my house, until finally I packed up my family and we moved to safe America"
RebeccaBitcoin: more importantly wtf pete
RebeccaBitcoin: Bitcoin pete is no more
RebeccaBitcoin: what is a contravex
fluffypony: it's like contravene and latex
decimation: fluffypony do you think the ANC will avoid appointing another Comrade Bob?
assbot: Proof That Mycelium Knows How To Make A Better RNG For Its Entropy Dongle. And Isn't. | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski
RebeccaBitcoin: ya thats why I wanted to ask you my questions
RebeccaBitcoin: instead I got mircea
RebeccaBitcoin: and ben and the others
pete_dushenski: they know more than i do anyways, so lucky you!
RebeccaBitcoin: The conversation quickly went downhill
fluffypony: decimation: I think the old guard within the ANC might have, but the younger guys are starting to care less and less about race, and just want to fix the lingering effects of decades of oppresion
RebeccaBitcoin: in the end it was mostly insults about bald people and so fourth
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1850 @ 0.00092519 = 1.7116 BTC [+]
pete_dushenski: it's not every day you get mircea_popescu asciilifeform and ben_vulpes answering your burning questions
pete_dushenski: RebeccaBitcoin: insults? what are those?
RebeccaBitcoin: I said jewfro > bald mircea
RebeccaBitcoin: sticking up for you and such
mircea_popescu: fluffypony you know that strikes me as a very charitable read.
fluffypony: eg. your grandfather had no education and so lived in poverty, thus your father had no education and lived in poverty, and now you finally have an opportunity to get a reasonable education and can pull yourself out of poverty, but there are decades that must elapse before it's more "balanced"
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: there are some, Julius Malema was the head of the ANC Youth League and often erred on the side of being overly aggressive against whites, but he was also overly aggressive against the ANC and got his ass booted
pete_dushenski: RebeccaBitcoin: well see the jewfro needs no sticking up for
pete_dushenski: it single-handedly got me a rating comment of "pimp" after all
pete_dushenski: kinda hard to beat that
mircea_popescu: fluffypony the concept boggles me. "overly" aggresive ? as in what, there's an appropriate level of aggresive ?
RebeccaBitcoin: I like your post about Y combinator
fluffypony: now he's started his own political party and is clamouring for nationalisation of the mining industry
RebeccaBitcoin: although not a fan of the philosophical democracy one
mircea_popescu: how about any aggrressive ==== his head on a pike.
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: like there's no problem in saying that a lot of wealth in South Africa still lies in the hands of whites by virtue of being born into privilege and so on, this is a known thing and it is spoken about and there are policies that are trying to correct this by providing an easier route to good education for the less fortunate and so on
decimation: after all, as I recall the ANC would necklace anyone who got "overly aggressive" in cooperating with whitey
pete_dushenski: RebeccaBitcoin: 50% ain't bad really
RebeccaBitcoin: overall I would say more like 75% if we include everything
fluffypony: here, this is where Malema is generally considered to have crossed the line -
assbot: Apartheid taught whites to be racist: Malema - Times LIVE
mircea_popescu: somehow i don't see this education angle too much. seems it's more a case of, "let's take the land and maybe white people will just pay us to be black"
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: yes - that's what Malema pushed for, and it's one of the things that eventually got him booted from the ANC, because even they believe it's a stupid idea
fluffypony: you don't correct the problem with handouts
RebeccaBitcoin: "Bullshit" with Penn & Teller about reparations: a good episode about that in America
pete_dushenski: RebeccaBitcoin: that must be about the threshold to get people here
pete_dushenski: nao we know!
RebeccaBitcoin: its sooooper late, time to sleep
RebeccaBitcoin: I don't want to be late for Ronald in the morning.
fluffypony: decimation: they were fighting an incredibly oppressive regime, I don't think you can hold them any more accountable than those that continued to push Apartheid policies
pete_dushenski: RebeccaBitcoin: a lash for every second late?
RebeccaBitcoin: something like that
pete_dushenski: either way, i hope you don't use rushwallet anymore
RebeccaBitcoin: "anymore"
RebeccaBitcoin: suggesting I have used it in the past
decimation: fluffypony have you read moldbug on rhodesia?
pete_dushenski: RebeccaBitcoin: i stand corrected
fluffypony: decimation: no?
pete_dushenski: RebeccaBitcoin: have you read my paper wallet article?
assbot: Unqualified Reservations: The country that used to exist
RebeccaBitcoin: I use a different method
RebeccaBitcoin: but yours is good too
fluffypony: *clicks*
pete_dushenski: RebeccaBitcoin: not saying you have to use it, merely that it talks about the entropy of javascript mouse clicks
RebeccaBitcoin: ya thats why I wanted to ask you about the mouse entropy thing
pete_dushenski: have you been satisfied this evening?
pete_dushenski: if not by me, then by my, what shall we call them... colleagues?
RebeccaBitcoin: not quite sure what you're asking
RebeccaBitcoin: no, I have not been "satisified"
decimation: I must retire for the evening but I would be curious about what you think about that, given your proximity to the affairs in that region of the world.
RebeccaBitcoin: "satisfied"
pete_dushenski: RebeccaBitcoin: ok so what demonstration do you further require?
RebeccaBitcoin: I am satisfied with my learnings from this chat
pete_dushenski: then we're good to go
assbot: Urban Dictionary: satisfaction
pete_dushenski: RebeccaBitcoin: try ;;ud "term"
RebeccaBitcoin: none of these were achieved: revenge, orgasm, college degree, a really hot dude's phone #
pete_dushenski: ;;ud satisfaction
gribble: | satisfaction. The feeling you get when you obtain one of the following: revenge, orgasm, college degree, a really hot chick's/dude's phone #. (revenge/orgasm) I ...
assbot: A very unfair perspective. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
RebeccaBitcoin: However to what you were really asking, yes, i am satisfied with the response to my entropy question
pete_dushenski: "There isn’t, nor is there going to be a way, manner, instrument or device through which to protect the passive from the active."
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: speaking of which, i just picked up atlas shrugged today
pete_dushenski: we'll see if it's all it's cracked up to be
pete_dushenski: RebeccaBitcoin: wonderful. next time, we'll work on the rest
RebeccaBitcoin: Have a wonderful evening. Goodnight!
pete_dushenski: bon soir.
Vexual: fluffy, have you travelled outside za into the contient?
assbot: Standards lab overlooked spy agency's cryptography 'back door', say scientists -
pete_dushenski: so much for Dual_EC_DRBG
assbot: Main Content | Math Programming
pete_dushenski: ^just stumbled across a very interesting looking math blog, for those so inclined
assbot: Nick Szabo (NickSzabo4) auf Twitter
Vexual: don't read that, read law
pete_dushenski: those of you who didn't kill andreas should definitely be following that dude
pete_dushenski: fascinating, vast array of interests
mircea_popescu: szabo is on his 4th acct ?
pete_dushenski: probably second with squatter filling in the gap
pete_dushenski: squatters*
mircea_popescu: plenty of crap in there too. docracy ? srsly ?
pete_dushenski: Vexual: ok let's see your cool law blog
pete_dushenski: and no bob loblaw
Vexual: buy the book cunt
pete_dushenski: it's on my shelf
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu << not a much of a smiler eh?
assbot: Fototeca de Haur pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
mircea_popescu: what are the odds that someone cracked a good joke/compliment jsut as the flash went off ?
Vexual: even an slr on burst wont catch it
pete_dushenski: fake it till you make it
pete_dushenski: tell yourself the joke, what?
pete_dushenski: goodness knows you tell yourself enough compliments, neh?
Vexual: moi?
pete_dushenski: Vexual: of course… not lol, mircea_popescu
Vexual: oh, sarcasm detected, my apologies
mircea_popescu: what am i, an entertainer ?
pete_dushenski: one of the best
mircea_popescu: welll so then let the noobs smile :D
Vexual: moi?
pete_dushenski: "What sort of day have sort of day have you, had..., dear?" she asked querulously. Khan looked up briefly, wearily. "Oh, same as usual," he said, "violent."
pete_dushenski: "'s the work going... dear?" she yelped miserably. The soldier shook her. "Put some affection into it!" he roared. She sobbed again. "'s the work going... dear?" she yelped miserably again, but this time with a kind of pathetic pout at the end. The mighty Khan sighed. "Oh, not too bad I suppose," he said in a world weary tone. "We swept through Manchuria a bit and spilt quite a lot of blood there.
pete_dushenski: That was in the morning, then this afternoon was mainly pillaging, though there was a bit of bloodshed around half four. What sort of day have you had?"
assbot: DNA/The Private Life of Genghis Khan
pete_dushenski: which is going into a blog post as we speak
pete_dushenski: i'll let your fertile minds play with that while i bid ye "hasta manana"
Vexual: queruoulyly and ruinable are similar
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6173 @ 0.00092794 = 5.7282 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Game 22 - Death 9007 Life 993 Year 826 - War of Life
mircea_popescu: nuts, life < 10%
Vexual: dyo always bet on life?
mircea_popescu: and with that, i wish you a merry xmas.
Vexual: wait, you got a dollar for the jukebox?
punkman: god morgen
Vexual: gutten morgen
punkman: what's good vexual
Vexual: 6 to the dollar punkman
assbot: Mutha 'uckers - Flight of the Conchords - YouTube
Vexual: my transactional shit
Vexual: boom boom assbot
punkman: assbot don't like your links
Vexual: asssbot got reamed recently
assbot: interview with labcoin shareholder - YouTube
Vexual: lol will qatchg
Vexual: *watch (lights off)
Vexual: fluffy, its flsh requisiset
Vexual: lrn2utub
Vexual: may i use my imagination?
punkman: why not
Vexual: lets us hop in a thing and go totunisia
fluffypony: Vexual: not my upload, unfortunately
Vexual: i check all my shit for eastern europe and ios b4 i post
xmj: fluffypony: woo
xmj: fluffypony: I have the first customer asking if I can give'm a quote.
punkman: works without flash, whatchu talking about
fluffypony: xmj: awesome
xmj: fluffypony: that was the south-african Pty i poked you about. German/South african company
fluffypony: aaah ok
xmj: I think..
Vexual: ever bin zanzibar fluffy pony
Vexual: thats a trade center from long way back
Vexual: thats not how you play frogger
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9250 @ 0.00094217 = 8.7151 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5159 @ 0.00094182 = 4.8588 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6350 @ 0.00093291 = 5.924 BTC [-]
assbot: Badger's awesome Star Trek script idea - from Breaking Bad Season 05 Episode 09 - YouTube
assbot: From Hackers to Hipsters: Social Media's Influence on Bitcoin Price
pankkake: funny that rushwallet thing, coindesk makes it news but I found a 1-year old announcement on reddit
fluffypony: yeah - I saw that too
fluffypony: where they got nailed for old nginx + broken SSL et.
fluffypony: *etc.
pankkake: when really matters is that they can steal anytime they want by serving malicious javascript selectively
pankkake: and so can google analytics!
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 10 @ 0.25600098 = 2.56 BTC [+] {2}
fluffypony: not only that, but if you're on the same wifi as a user you can just poison their arp cache so you can mitm, sslstrip, and voila
fluffypony: they don't have HSTS on
fluffypony: so that makes rushwallet an insane security risk
BingoBoingo_: Isn't it weird that people want super detailed and incredibly specific information when we label a bad idea a bad idea, yet they take light teasing super seriously and start writing off people's opinions immediately...
BingoBoingo_: That's what I got out of the Rushwallet wall of text
fluffypony: she got super aggressive and insulting about it too
fluffypony: which was bizarre
BingoBoingo_: Not bizzare at all, but disappointing
chetty: super aggressive and insulting is the new be nice
pankkake: nice is just another word for faggot
fluffypony: pankkake: you're so nice
BingoBoingo_: !up thickasthieves
assbot: Can we stop using speech bubbles for messaging? | The Verge
thickasthieves: can we stop using arrows for directions?
thickasthieves: so annoying!
fluffypony: can we stop using the stiffy disk icon to save files!
pankkake: I've never used an application with speech bubbles
pankkake: it looks like an horrible skeumorphism and waste of space
thickasthieves: so glad i got out of the design world
thickasthieves: it seems itll be at the forefront of idiocy for years to come
thickasthieves: iconography and branding are like the new politics
fluffypony: as long as you get your kerning right you're home free
thickasthieves: all these consumers being trained to discern aesthetic nuance, yet ignore substance
chetty: eye candy is where it is at!
fluffypony: to be fair, I to prefer form over function
fluffypony: otherwise I'd drive a Land Rover Defender
thickasthieves: well you can have both
fluffypony: yes you can for some things
fluffypony: but I think you often encounter Zooko's Triangle
thickasthieves: keeping in mind this is a post from a guy complaining he has 9 messaging apps wor whatever all using icons that make too much sense to him
thickasthieves: his problem isnt the icons
thickasthieves: zooko's triangle seems flawed
thickasthieves: is this really a thing?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28300 @ 0.00093049 = 26.3329 BTC [-] {3}
thickasthieves: ah it's a stoner programmer thing
xmj: there we go
xmj: i need one more "yes" to consider the team complete.
xmj: then it'll be seven guys on three continents.
fluffypony: thickasthieves: what's flawed with it?
BingoBoingo_: xmj: What kind of team? Cricket?
xmj: BingoBoingo_: consulting startup
xmj: sysadmins around the world covering all timezones :)
fluffypony: badminton
xmj: beerpong.
thickasthieves: fluffypony it seems to make 3 properties that aren't exclusively linked or equally related and paint them in a triangle
thickasthieves: usability, decentralization, security
pankkake: it's not usability
chetty: <xmj> then it'll be seven guys on three continents.// sexist!
xmj: i have not received one application from a female FreeBSD systems administrator
xmj: wonder why
pankkake: <= human meaningful is a name like "pankkake" instead of 651BB507D9889CC0
assbot: Zooko's triangle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
thickasthieves: i also dont totally see how you could then go "applying" zooko's triangle to things not domain names
fluffypony: thickasthieves: apply it to Bitcoin addresses
thickasthieves: pankkake, you mean make your name more usable?
fluffypony: they are secure, and they are decentralized (no central authority)
pankkake: I guess
fluffypony: but they are not human-meaningful
fluffypony: unless you like memorising long base58 strings
thickasthieves: ok but what is the point of the triangle
thickasthieves: how do you apply it
fluffypony: domain names, otoh, are human-meaningful and secure (provably yours, unique)
fluffypony: but they are centrally controlled
pankkake: but as the article notes, namecoin actually achieves that for domain names
BingoBoingo_: !up The20YearIRCloud
thickasthieves: so i'm right?
BingoBoingo_: !up zoinky
BingoBoingo_: !up davout
pankkake: yes, perhaps not intentionally :p
fluffypony: thickasthieves: there are things that can arguably hit all 3 corners
fluffypony: but most don't
davout: ohai
chetty: these days human meaningful is pretty squishy, I mane is bff,lol,txt really meaningful?
thickasthieves: and the point of the triangle is to say "pick two" ?
fluffypony: thickasthieves: yes
fluffypony: chetty: in this context it's clearly defined, though
thickasthieves: yet it's own wiki says picking 3 is cool too
fluffypony: chetty: "The quality of meaningfulness and memorability to the users of the naming system."
fluffypony: !up thickasthieves
zoinky: woop woop
fluffypony: thickasthieves: remember, this was "invented" by Zooko in 2001
fluffypony: stuff that is the exception to the rule only came about 10 years later
thickasthieves: so the rule was wrong
chetty: well I don't 'get' most of the icon stuff .. maybe I am not human
thickasthieves: i understand i have the hindsight zookoi didnt, but then why refer to his triangle anymore?
fluffypony: thickasthieves: I referred to it in the context of software
fluffypony: I was going to elaborate on it earlier
fluffypony: it's fine - you just jumped the gun a little, lol
fluffypony: I was going to say that with Zooko's triangle it was believed that a naming system couldn't be simultaneously human-meaningful, decentralised, and secure (you had to pick 2)
fluffypony: so with software I think that often times it's this intuitive to use - secure - performant triangle
fluffypony: and we tend to pick the secure & performant stuff, most users pick intuitive & performant, sacrificing security
thickasthieves: "price, speed, quality. pick two."
fluffypony: but just like Zooko's conjecture was proven wrong, there is the rare piece of software that meets all 3
thickasthieves: is it a rarity or a degree though?
thickasthieves: referring to the earlier security conversation
fluffypony: hmmmm
fluffypony: wrt naming systems I suppose it's a degee
fluffypony: *degree
fluffypony: since even a Bitcoin address can be memorised if you're so inclined
thickasthieves: and even a decentralized network is centralized itself
fluffypony: yeah but the triangle refers to a centralised naming authority, so only decentralised in that sense
thickasthieves: just referring to degree again, all the aspects are degrees
thickasthieves: they each can pull from the other but not in any proportion or equality
fluffypony: that's true
thickasthieves: it's what bothered me about the triangle
fluffypony: I wonder if breaks the triangle
fluffypony: I haven't even tried it yet
thickasthieves: sry Tox has a word bubble icon, fuck that
fluffypony: which interface?
thickasthieves: the logo
fluffypony: Toxic is CLI only
rithm: zookoo's triangle should've had a privkey backup in it somewhere :|
fluffypony: so no bubbles there
fluffypony: rithm: that's Usagi's Square
thickasthieves: the logo on the website uses bubble
thickasthieves: DOA icon, sry!
rithm: sekrit rumor is tahoe-lafs lost their privkey
fluffypony: rithm: they did
pankkake: shouldn't the Bitcoin icon be a bubble too?
fluffypony: and there's like 340 BTC in it
rithm: so so sad
fluffypony: but that's ages ago
thickasthieves: pankkake it is a B in a bubble
assbot: BitCoinPage Tahoe-LAFS
fluffypony: sad :(
rithm: my dialup modem takes forever to load rss feeds
rithm: i must be behind
fluffypony: thankfully they're raised 3.8 BTC on the new address, so there's that
pankkake: wait, tahoe devs can't backups? :/
fluffypony: ;;balance 19jzBxijUeLvcMVpUYXcRr5kGG3ThWgx4P
gribble: 358.519266
fluffypony: mostly 2010 donations tho, so there's that
rithm: more than a car, less than a castle
rithm: it's recoverable in time
fluffypony: just wait for those pocket quantum computers to come out
rithm: quantum computer can't touch my stellar bro
fluffypony: but Facebook can
thickasthieves: ;;balance 36PrZ1KHYMpqSyAQXSG8VwbUiq2EogxLo2
gribble: 24082.7864308
fluffypony: lolthereum
fluffypony: ;;calc 24082*[;;ticker --last]
gribble: Error: ";;ticker" is not a valid command.
fluffypony: oh well fuck you, gribble
fluffypony: ;;calc 24082*582.63
gribble: 14030895.66
fluffypony: well at least he has a nice retirement annuity now
rithm: so like these pictures i'm seeing of rumored iphone 6c's
rithm: looks like a seat of beats headphones
thickasthieves: bitcoin dev funding = $0 ethereum dev funding = $priceless
assbot: New Infographic Reveals What You Can Purchase With One Dollar Around the World |
fluffypony: thickasthieves: yeah but the Bitcoin Foundation screws the left hand side of that up
thickasthieves: what did TBF fund that exists in main client?
thickasthieves: payment requests?
BingoBoingo: Prolly that. Also apparently CoinBase does that Bits garbage now as well
thickasthieves: my bet is that BitPay will take over core dev
fluffypony: that would be awesome
thickasthieves: you can get a whole bottle of wine for $1 in italy?
thickasthieves: 6 bottles of mineral water?
thickasthieves: is it like a 3rd world country now?
chetty: well I can get some pretty good wine here for about 25 peso, and peso is about 12.5 to the dollar
thickasthieves: yer in argentina too?
chetty: ya
thickasthieves: they sell individual cigarettes in england?
BingoBoingo: thickasthieves> my bet is that BitPay will take over core dev << Why with all the money they ship the foundation?
thickasthieves: because bitpay actually has necessity
thickasthieves: they also have incentive
fluffypony: hax0rz
davout: ;;later tell mike_c the links to S.WOL on link to, might want to change the url
gribble: The operation succeeded.
thickasthieves: lol, billions of data
thickasthieves: datacoinz
assbot: Snowden Granted 3 More Years of Russian Residency - Slashdot
BingoBoingo: thickasthieves> because bitpay actually has necessity << No more than most. Anyways I though they were more focused on wallet fork.
thickasthieves: as opposed to?
thickasthieves: you mean copay?
thickasthieves: they seem to be putting a lot of effort into dev
thickasthieves: Bitcoin Core, Copay, etc
thickasthieves: imo it's just beginning
pankkake: also bitcore
assbot: Russia Bans Food Imports, Invites Higher Inflation - MoneyBeat - WSJ
thickasthieves: what's the pennant?
BingoBoingo: Against Bananas
BingoBoingo: Bitpay puts in a lot of Dev, but... How many foundation seats connect to them?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19863 @ 0.00092994 = 18.4714 BTC [-]
thickasthieves: i dont think bitpay cares about TBF beyond it's ability to serve as a tool to its own ends
thickasthieves: simply put, bitpay is higher on the ladder
assbot: T-Mobile CEO Talks Sprint Smack on Twitter - MoneyBeat - WSJ
thickasthieves: no article to be seen
mike_c: davout: thanks, link fixed.
BingoBoingo: !up astRocre1p
BingoBoingo: !up nam-shub
BingoBoingo: !up Namworld
BingoBoingo: Don't everyone guess the author all at once...
cazalla: is that the unabomber?
nam-shub: do you have love ones who depend on you? What if the worst happens, have you considered life insurance? nam-shub can save you big big big!
TomServo: lolwut
BingoBoingo: cazalla: Yup
BingoBoingo: cazalla: Or as you may refer to him Dr. Kaczynski
cazalla: BingoBoingo, i like Ted's essays, wonder if it was all that mk ultra stuff that tipped him over though
BingoBoingo: Maybe even Dr. K
BingoBoingo: cazalla: Or you can go with what he said: "The best place, to me, was the largest remnant of this plateau that dates from the tertiary age. It's kind of rolling country, not flat, and when you get to the edge of it you find these ravines that cut very steeply in to cliff-like drop-offs and there was even a waterfall there. It was about a two days' hike from my cabin. That was the best spot until the summer of 1983. That summer the
BingoBoingo: re were too many people around my cabin so I decided I needed some peace. I went back to the plateau and when I got there I found they had put a road right through the middle of it... You just can't imagine how upset I was. It was from that point on I decided that, rather than trying to acquire further wilderness skills, I would work on getting back at the system. Revenge."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16205 @ 0.00092661 = 15.0157 BTC [-]
cazalla: BingoBoingo, i know the quote and he's understandably upset but to jump to bombs even before angry letters might be a bit much
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 611 @ 0.0021 = 1.2831 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: cazalla: You have to remember that pre-Internet trolling wasn't as viable outlet for dissent as it is now.
cazalla: do you think that has stopped copycats?
BingoBoingo: Well, who are the copycats now?
cazalla: no i'm asking in the sense that access to online porn and rapes dropped during same period
cazalla: post internet trolling being an outlet for people who may have sent bombs in the past if they didn't have it
BingoBoingo: Well, let's consider like versus like, now there are less middle aged and aging hermit sending mail bombs. They've been instead been replaced largely by 20 somethings who can't get laid and take it all out of one venue and they are spent.
cazalla: i don't really see the connection between unabomber and elliott rodger types besides the violence
BingoBoingo: Well, the Elliot Roger type is where the violence is now.
cazalla: they both kill people of no consequence though :\
BingoBoingo: Though I wonder what Dr. K's FBI file looked like when he was in Academia
BingoBoingo: cazalla: Dr. K tried to kill people he though were of consequence
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 408 @ 0.00209999 = 0.8568 BTC [-]
cazalla: i mean, some of the school shooters have a higher kill/death ratio than him
BingoBoingo: Most do.
cazalla: although none sustained a reign of terror for as long as ted did
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37745 @ 0.00092738 = 35.004 BTC [+] {2}
BingoBoingo: Dr. K had a problem. How to put his writing in front of as many people as possible. Maybe the reign of terror was more a tool to that end than the writing a tool to jsutify the terror.
BingoBoingo: Think how many fingers wordpress could have saved back then.
cazalla: there was always fidonet
cazalla: clearly a smart guy though, his leftism essay helped me to understand some of the frustration i feel towards leftist people but wasn't smart enough to figure out myself
assbot: Massive Russian Hack Has Researchers Scratching Their Heads - Slashdot
BingoBoingo: "But I can't answer that because the people who disclosed this decided they want to make money off of this. There's no way for others to verify." Wisniewski was referring to an offer by Hold Security to notify website operators if they were affected, but only if they sign up for its breach notification service, which starts at $120 per year.
BigBitz: I found it... strange... they announced it but then wrapped it up with their own 'Solutions'
BigBitz: and if Sophos research team can't expense $120 something is fucked.
BingoBoingo: Well... can they expense $120 per website?
BigBitz: Their point is around the inability to confirm the data as HOLD won't share/release it.
chetty: the protection racket moves into the 21st century
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2347 @ 0.00201717 = 4.7343 BTC [-] {15}
rithm: yeah hold security going for the squeeze
rithm: the 'ol hack and hype
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 396 @ 0.00196477 = 0.778 BTC [-] {6}
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell moiety but it IS spam calls lol. pretty good social engineer skills on them cold callers huh ? how did the conversation go ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: "We’ve completed our investigation of your unauthorized payment claim. As the payment was sent as part of a billing agreement, it is considered to be an authorized payment. However, as a courtesy to you, we have issued you a refund for this transaction."
mircea_popescu: phear the people paypal aims to be curteous towards.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 584 @ 0.00193014 = 1.1272 BTC [-] {10}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 520 @ 0.00191 = 0.9932 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: mike_c btw, perhaps a link to promotion in wol faq/news ?
mike_c: good idea
mircea_popescu: so what i wish to know is, anyone left on the internet that didn't shitlist as far as stmp is concerned ?
mike_c: promotion linked.
mircea_popescu: le cool.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] [PAID] 1.71467340 BTC to 12`777 shares, 13420 satoshi per share
mircea_popescu: how's teh forum thread coming along ? you got banned yet ?
mike_c: it is chugging along. few hundred views. no banning yet, as no forum moderrators have been told to fuck off.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] [PAID] 15.60533716 BTC to 1`149`988 shares, 1357 satoshi per share
Namworld: That's the highest crime.
mike_c: this will likely change if one of them ever shows up in the thread.
chetty: no guts, no glory
mircea_popescu: no guts no gore i think it was
mircea_popescu: god damned i love answering people asking me "what's my budget" with
assbot: Let me google that for you
mircea_popescu: being rich is no big deal, but being an asshole is worth all the gold in the world.
mircea_popescu: o look at that ben_vulpes, you neatly show in reflogs :
assbot: VAN iframe
mircea_popescu: mike_c you're so far the winner of teh referrals contest.
mike_c: w00t. take note advertisers.
assbot: postfix - Sending on behalf of with authorized email as envelope but from email to be client email - Server Fault
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2043 @ 0.00190005 = 3.8818 BTC [-] {9}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 100 @ 0.01 = 1 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 585 @ 0.0019 = 1.1115 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 176 @ 0.01 = 1.76 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski "2. Forbidden to ever make peace with a monarch, a prince or a people who have not submitted." << definitely how it goes for bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: none of this "adapt bitcoin to whatever laws" and none of that "adapt laws to bitcoin" either. submission, complete, not negociable.
pete_dushenski: and how you beat penguirker to the punch never ceases to amaze me
mircea_popescu: you pingback you silly.
pete_dushenski: well duh
mircea_popescu: "The father Temüjin knew was not his biological father but his wife’s captor"...
mircea_popescu: that his doesn't follow the way you want it to.
mircea_popescu: it attaches to the named. temujin had a wife as an unborn ?
[]bot: Bet placed: 2 BTC for Yes on "Tesla stock to close at over $250 in 2014" Odds: 88(Y):12(N) by coin, 87(Y):13(N) by weight. Total bet: 16.51494688 BTC. Current weight: 74,119.
Namworld: << Of course they can regulate anything. Regulating never prevented people from doing whatever they pleased, neither does it in this case. Regulating involves having sticks to deter non-compliance if discovered. Anyone can do that for anything, provided they got a sufficient amount of sticks in the region they wish to regulate.
assbot: Time for some Bitlicenses of our own. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
Namworld: They even didn't say that Bitcoin can't do X or Y, because they can't regulate that, obviously. They regulate what their own people can or cannot do/use.
FabianB: $traded
empyex: FabianB: Traded in last 24 hours: S.MPOE
Namworld: They regulate people.
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: right. should be "mother" instead of "wife"
Namworld: Regulating people usually involve punishment after the fact, since altering how the world works isn't really a possibility.
mircea_popescu: Namworld i think you're missing a major component here. what you describe, I can afford, the us can not.
mircea_popescu: the us may only exist as a LAWFUL body, not as merely a regulatory body.
mircea_popescu: so the sticks issue is moot.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 80 @ 0.01 = 0.8 BTC [-]
assbot: KryptoKit Launches RushWallet: An Instant, Cross-Platform Bitcoin Wallet | TechCrunch
Namworld: Well one could argue they indeed have the means to enforce local regulation CURRENTLY. If that ends up being bad and hurts them afterward, they just loose power.
mircea_popescu: just as well one could argue they don't have the means.
mircea_popescu: either argument will come to the same test,
mircea_popescu: which will take time
mircea_popescu: time enough for the currently to have expired.
Namworld: I suppose so
mircea_popescu: moreover, the test is disproportionately expensive to undetake, for this reason.
mircea_popescu: on one hand, one party risks being maintained by the other, at its expense, well in excess of 100 btc a year, for a while. on the other hand, that other party risks complete disolution.
mircea_popescu: kinda why lenin and the gang survived the tsar just fine.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 900 @ 0.00179772 = 1.6179 BTC [-] {12}
pete_dushenski: sorry, lenin and co survived because they had the financial means to outlast the tsars?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2830 @ 0.00173658 = 4.9145 BTC [-] {7}
assbot: New one-star is U.S. military's first general born in Vietnam | Army Times |
pete_dushenski: just like taleb's couscous observation
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 212 @ 0.00251062 = 0.5323 BTC [+] {5}
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski tsar (who ruled by divine right) govt (which HAD the authority to exist as a merely regulatory body) made a leninlicense.
mircea_popescu: which lenin did not bother to get. he was arrested, and accused of lenining without a license. this is the test above.
mircea_popescu: if lenin fails this test, his punishment is to... go to switzerland.
mircea_popescu: if the tsar's government fails the test, its punishment is to no longer exist.
mircea_popescu: this differential does not yield surprising results in practice, and the standing of the us govt is weaker than the tsar's was.
assbot: This Is The Bitcoin Empire. This Is The New Yasa | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski
pete_dushenski: ^because i'll go gray waiting for penguirker
ben_vulpes: <pete_dushenski> if not by me, then by my, what shall we call them... colleagues? << it's the peerage ;)
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: yes, that's much better :)
pete_dushenski: and mr. ben_vulpes, as a student of power, you should enjoy this most recent blog post
ben_vulpes: it is now loaded into the tablist
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 58 @ 0.01489998 = 0.8642 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: hot on espn : the peerage vs teh derpage.
ben_vulpes: am only waiting for babe to enface-ify then it's bike to breastfast sammich time
ben_vulpes: followed by MOAR SERVER
mircea_popescu: enface-ify ?
mircea_popescu: she wears makeup biking ?!
ben_vulpes: great thing about new server is that i can run it as hot as i want without some virtualization layer going "mmmm, that's a little bit too hot. let's bork your input and ouput for a bit."
ben_vulpes: well, teeth.
pete_dushenski: tooth blush?
pete_dushenski: dental mascara?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes yup.
pete_dushenski: gum liner?
pete_dushenski: "Google will begin using website encryption, or HTTPS, as a ranking signal – a move which should prompt website developers who have dragged their heels on increased security measures" << lulz
ben_vulpes: (plus 8 whole cores! oodles of memory!)
ben_vulpes is a happy camper
mircea_popescu: then he'
asciilifeform: no heartbleed, no pagerank.
mircea_popescu: s all "wait mpex costs 20k a month ?!?!?!"
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: backdoors for all!
pete_dushenski: it's a right
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> no heartbleed, no pagerank. << search engines. next frontier of bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski i know i treat teh backdoors as a right...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problem with google is that it's becoming rather irrelevant. think about your own data consumption process, how often do you include something you found on google ? and when exactly ?
mircea_popescu: generally you KNOW the sources.
mircea_popescu: if you dont, you know how to identify one, and google supplies a raw list, like a sort of research intern.
pete_dushenski: fluffypony: badminton << count me in for this team! 99.9% chance i'm the best player here :)
mircea_popescu: in any case, the people who end up places because google are generally speaking they too young or too stupid to have a populated mental space / bookmark list
mircea_popescu: and the more action driven among those are on the various muppetwitters already
mircea_popescu: so really there's not all that much left google can do.
pete_dushenski: or they just like typing in the url bar to get the wiki link
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski i know i call lo... from the url bar to go places 10x as often as i call google.
mircea_popescu: and that's raw frequency. if moderated by importance... 99% of what google does for me is grep trilema.
pete_dushenski: backdooring google ;)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: unfortunately google has a watertight monopoly on at least one resource - usenet archive.
mircea_popescu: that's copied to all hell no ?
asciilifeform: not in totality, no
mircea_popescu: so what are you waiting for ?
asciilifeform: they bought (and zapped) 'dejanews' - the only reasonably total archive
chetty: lets go back to gopher
mircea_popescu: it'll be the lulz of all time if 20 years from now google survives as this grim, unwelcoming steward of usenet archive.
mircea_popescu: suing everyone everywhere.
asciilifeform: they'll survive - or not - as the same thing microshit is - u.s. department of search engine.
asciilifeform: (vs u.s. dept. of operating system)
asciilifeform: (nobody but me and perhaps half a dozen other weirdos give a flying fuck about usenet archive)
BigBitz: I used to like usenet.
asciilifeform: << for anyone unfamiliar with this unique collection
assbot: Yarchive
asciilifeform: ^ one thinking man's 'best of' archive
assbot: Democracy vs. Aristocracy | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski
pete_dushenski: some nincompoop thinks zuckerberg can amass 1 mn btc. just like that. more lulz
BigBitz: I'm sure he could do a 51% attack if he /really/ wanted. :)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72000 @ 0.00091367 = 65.7842 BTC [-] {4}
pete_dushenski: BigBitz: ya, on dogecoin
BigBitz: yeah, because he wouldn't have the financial resources to do it on BTC....
asciilifeform: does arsebook have its own crapcoin yet ?
pete_dushenski: they have credits kinda thingies
pete_dushenski: BigBitz: his resources are tied up in a stock which he basically can't sell
assbot: Apple MAC Macintosh Adjustable Keyboard Ergo Ergonomic Keypad M1242 Vintage Mint | eBay
pete_dushenski: and ending in 15m
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: z's 'resources' mainly consist of his seat at the fuhrer's table (as propaganda minister)
BigBitz: Yeah that $3B he cashed out must be hardh, pete_dushenski.
asciilifeform: so hypothetically he could access various resources through means other than buying
pete_dushenski: BigBitz: $3b eh? news to me :)
BigBitz: He cashed out over $4B if I remember.
BigBitz: We would need to Google to confirm but, yeah, pretty sure he cashed out multi Billions.
pete_dushenski: ;;google zuckerberg facebook stock sale
BigBitz: and he did some last year as well.
gribble: Zuckerberg to Pocket $1 Billion in Facebook Stock Sale - WSJ: <>; Facebook and Mark Zuckerberg Sell Shares, Facebook Stock Price ...: <>; Facebook's Zuckerberg selling $2.3 billion in stock - USA Today: (1 more message)
BigBitz: So I guess he has cashed out over $5Bn.
BigBitz: Either way - don't fool yourself if you think the SUPER RICH couldn't do what they wanted with Bitcoin. Not saying it would be an easy thing but it's not at all impossible.
pete_dushenski: "While Zuckerberg will end up pocketing $33 million, his overall stake in Facebook is barely changing, and he’s donating $1 billion to charity."
BigBitz: Yeah that was the second cash out - he did $3Bn this year I am almost certain.
pete_dushenski: from the second link, dec 2013
BigBitz: Let me goodl...
BigBitz: errr Google.
asciilifeform: SUPER RICH couldn't do what they wanted << they contracted it out. to usg.
BigBitz: According to a Facebook filing this week, Zuckerberg pulled the trigger on some 60 million shares worth of options at the end of last year, netting a profit of about $3.3 billion. He immediately turned around and sold more than 41 million shares while turning over 18 million, worth almost $1 billion at the time, to his favorite charity, the Silicon Valley Community Foundation.
BigBitz: So yeah... he got dat paper, yo.
pete_dushenski: well, if the "super rich" could touch bitcoin, they would
pete_dushenski: not like they're waiting for a mailed invitation
pete_dushenski: it's sitting right there
BigBitz: You change from "omg not possible" to "they would if they could" heh.
BigBitz: I suspect plently of rich people have Bitcoin.
BigBitz: If they want it they can get it.
pete_dushenski: BigBitz: dude, those two reduce to the same thing
BigBitz: ie; if Zuckerberg really really really wanted 1M BTC of course he could.
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> (nobody but me and perhaps half a dozen other weirdos give a flying fuck about usenet archive) << nonsense. history is history.
BigBitz: Anyways - I am not trying to incite an argument. I just think and believe that if they wanted it they'd get it. Cash is their king (and many others).
fluffypony: but amassing 1M BTC wouldn't cost him $660 M
fluffypony: the market implications are huge
asciilifeform: fluffypony: no market implications if you sink the usd into mining vs. buying.
fluffypony: that's true
BigBitz: that's why we need darkpool/iceberg ;)
pete_dushenski: fluffypony: 1 mn btc on the market would cost infinity billion ;)
BigBitz: bbl... no arguing :P
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> fluffypony: no market implications if you sink the usd into mining vs. buying. << think again.
fluffypony: not arguing, just thinking
asciilifeform: baking a sha2 core into 10mil consumer webcams/routers/ethernet-enabled dildos costs considerably less than 1b.
mircea_popescu: what btc revenue can you guarantee me today for a 1bn usd investment in s.rig ?
mike_c: ;;calc 1000000 / (25 * 6 * 24)
gribble: 277.777777778
mike_c: hm, good luck getting 1mn through mining
mircea_popescu: <BigBitz> Either way - don't fool yourself if you think the SUPER RICH couldn't do what they wanted with Bitcoin. Not saying it would be an easy thing but it's not at all impossible. << i'm saying it would be impossible.
mircea_popescu: if it weren't impossible, it'd have been done already.
asciilifeform: hell, doesn't have to be below-board - sell next iPnohe with the understanding that $1 off monthly charge but gizmo mines for the fuhrer while plugged into mains for battery charge.
mircea_popescu: there's a reason only washed up nobodies a la pierce and twinkletoss come derping around to be impaled on the fence pikes.
mircea_popescu: that reason is that the people with some self respect left don't wish to play the part of decorative mosquito.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform even so.
mircea_popescu: mike_c exactly.
mircea_popescu: <BigBitz> Anyways - I am not trying to incite an argument. I just think and believe that if they wanted it they'd get it. Cash is their king (and many others). << the world has new kings, meanwhile. the direct effect of this being that no, the old kings couldn't anything, whether they wanted it or not.
asciilifeform: chinese have useful concept, 'mandate of heaven'
mircea_popescu: Jefferson Davis couldn't sign a law, either.
mircea_popescu: BigBitz also you will notice, taking 1bn of stock and lavisingh it upon some charity does empathically not constitute a cash out.
BigBitz: read the whole thread, mircea_popescu.
BigBitz: not the bit that supports your opinion.
mircea_popescu: it's a cash out when he takes 1bn of facebook stock and gives it to support rebels ousting the us from the ukraine.
BigBitz: he previously cashed out $3Bn worth.
mircea_popescu: that's cashing out : when you take your money and hit someone over the head with it.
BigBitz: Haha.
BigBitz: does it have to be Ukranians?
mircea_popescu: something i can do, if i want. i can sell out mpoe stock and put a 1bn dolar contract on obama's head.
mircea_popescu: if i feel so inclined one morning.
BigBitz: Well; you can't.
mircea_popescu: zuckerberg does not. which is why i'm a player and zuckerberg for all the press, is not.
mircea_popescu: yes, actually i can.
BigBitz: noone is stupid enough to pay $1Bn though :)
mircea_popescu: and whether i do or not is a matter of my own private and personal arbitrariety and nothing else.
BigBitz: arbitrary numbers are arbitary.
mircea_popescu: in the sense someone is stupid enough to pay 100bn for fb and 20k btc for eth...
BigBitz: Eth... the latest scam coin.
mircea_popescu: i have little worry about the actual market value of things actually on the actual market.
BigBitz: It's scary what people throw money at...
asciilifeform: eth is astounding - proves that 2010 never ended
mircea_popescu: seems your entire argument line just ate itself.
asciilifeform: and who knows when will end
BigBitz: mircea_popescu? How so.
asciilifeform can't help but suspect a 'laundry' for stolen/usg-snarfed/etc coin
mircea_popescu: what, ima be trapped in meta jail now cause you're bored ? log's there.
BigBitz: The point was Zuckerberg has lots of cash/resources. If he was inclined to have lots of BTC I'm sure he would.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20150 @ 0.0009142 = 18.4211 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: the point is that no, he does not have any.
mircea_popescu: he has lots of resources as long as he uses them a certain way
BigBitz: I forgot you and him were buddies.
mircea_popescu: and this way is not included there.
BigBitz: you know him /that/ well.
mircea_popescu: i don't need to be buddies with a cockroach to know why it can't fly.
BigBitz: but the American cockroach does fly.
asciilifeform: ;;google joseph nacchio
gribble: Joseph Nacchio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <>; Former qwest ceo joseph nacchio: tales from a white-collar prison ...: <>; Former Qwest CEO Joe Nacchio Tells Story of Fight Against NSA ...: < (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: not this one.
[]bot: Bet placed: 1.4996 BTC for Yes on "Tesla stock to close at over $250 in 2014" Odds: 89(Y):11(N) by coin, 88(Y):12(N) by weight. Total bet: 18.01454688 BTC. Current weight: 74,093.
fluffypony: near as I can ascertain
fluffypony: $600 million worth of mining hardware would not work
fluffypony: it would bump difficulty up to over 100 billion
asciilifeform: fluffypony: try 600 million sans electric bill
asciilifeform: or, alternatively, usurpation of existing capacity
fluffypony: ok - so assuming you userp all existing capacity
fluffypony: it still bumps diff to over 81 billion
fluffypony: at 0 electricity cost
fluffypony: assuming the usual profitability fall-off in mining
fluffypony: you'd take a year to break even
asciilifeform: which fall-off? block reward halving ?
fluffypony: no, increasing difficulty
fluffypony: although I suppose you'd have little in the way of competition at that juncture
fluffypony: still, with no fall-off, complete replacement of existing hashing power, and no electricity, you're still on break-even after 263 days
fluffypony: pretty sure if that happened they'd move the PoW to SHA3 :-P
asciilifeform: who is 'they' ?
fluffypony: His Royal Gavinness
fluffypony: He Who Is Weighted 40 for Gitian Signing
asciilifeform: fluffypony: if tonight he checks in hardcoded root pw for usg, will you install new ver.?
mike_c: we already know what happens when govt starts mining. difficulty bumps to 19B.
fluffypony: a change in PoW because the mining network is being replaced by a single competitor is a completely different value proposition
fluffypony: I'm confident we'd see acceptance of that change across the board in such an event
asciilifeform: 'number one rule' of dominating mining - don't be an obvious idiot
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 210 @ 0.00248687 = 0.5222 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.2635561 = 0.5271 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: (emphasis on 'obvious')
fluffypony: either way, it's all hypothetical
fluffypony: I just don't think that this is entirely plausible through mining or market buys
asciilifeform knows no hard facts whatsoever about ownership distribution of existing mining hardware, and you - for any value of 'you' - don't either.
mike_c: how so? the possibilites aren't limitless
fluffypony: sure, but there are known mining entities
fluffypony: that get interviewed and are outspoken and own relatively huge mining farms
mircea_popescu: <fluffypony> $600 million worth of mining hardware would not work << kinda th point.
fluffypony: if they felt their hashrate was being unatturally displaced they would say something
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: yes - I'm backing what you said up
asciilifeform: using methods known to even the lowliest spammer, you can make an arbitrarily large hash farm look like an arbitrarily large number of proportionately-smaller ones
fluffypony: I had to run the numbers myself to confirm my gut feeling
asciilifeform: distributed however you like around the globe
mircea_popescu: fluffypony yes, im agreeing with your backing :D
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> 'number one rule' of dominating mining - don't be an obvious idiot << problem is the obvious symbol is only defined in the core dump
asciilifeform: in other news...
assbot: Tektronix Uses DMCA Notice To Try To Stop Oscilloscope Hacking | Techdirt
assbot: Argentina sues US at Int'l Court of Justice over its sovereign debt
[]bot: Bet placed: 1.09 BTC for Yes on "Tesla stock to close at over $250 in 2014" Odds: 90(Y):10(N) by coin, 89(Y):11(N) by weight. Total bet: 19.10454688 BTC. Current weight: 74,085.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 797 @ 0.00196485 = 1.566 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 917 @ 0.0019648 = 1.8017 BTC [-]
decimation: re: google < I've heard from folks who work there that it has already become a sad bureaucracy
decimation: it's amusing to watch the half-life of a silly-con valley company - only takes ten years to go from young turks to us dept. of search engine
thickasthieves: so nasdaq has begun hyping COIN I see
thickasthieves: maybe it has preliminary approval
FabianB: what's COIN?
decimation: "Warrants become a lot easier to serve when it's only one or two mega-social sites involved rather than a multitude of host providers and network companies. (Conspiracy theorists are already taking note of that same Person of the Year article's mention of FBI Director Robert Mueller just dropping by to say hello to Zuckerberg in the midst of a company meeting.)"
decimation: facebook << us dept of 'social media'
decimation: thickasthieves is that the winklevii fund?
assbot: Winklevoss Bitcoin Trust ETF is major innovation in the quickly growing ETF market Says NASDAQ Executive | Forex Minute - Financial News | Stock Market | Trading Commodities | Binary Options Updates - Forex Minute Portal
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45700 @ 0.0009124 = 41.6967 BTC [-]
thickasthieves: that article is a robot or somrthing
thickasthieves: all kindsa dropped words
assbot: Nasdaqs LaValle: Bitcoin ETF A Turning Point |
decimation: the question is: if this isn't a scam, where are they going to trade bitcoin?
decimation: that seems to be a pretty important detail
[]bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Bitcoin over $1000 before September" Odds: 12(Y):88(N) by coin, 25(Y):75(N) by weight. Total bet: 52.93365572 BTC. Current weight: 20,617.
assbot: Hacker makes $84k hijacking Bitcoin mining pool | Technology |
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 200 @ 0.00395048 = 0.7901 BTC [+] {4}
kakobrekla: As many as 8,000 Dogecoins, equivalent to $1.42, were lost as a result of the hack.
kakobrekla: prolly costs more to store this line in the logs.
[]bot: Bet placed: 3 BTC for Yes on "Tesla stock to close at over $250 in 2014" Odds: 91(Y):9(N) by coin, 90(Y):10(N) by weight. Total bet: 22.10454688 BTC. Current weight: 74,054.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: seems like normal coin was involved as well.
kakobrekla: yeah, just thought it was funny a buck of doge gets a mention.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: presumably the artist didn't know what he'd find (alts, etc) and took the trouble to write a generic hijacker.
asciilifeform: incidentally, this is another good way to convert an ocean of fiat to btc.
asciilifeform: (since fiat is, well, fiat - doesn't matter so much if it isn't efficient...)
asciilifeform: the cheapest way to convert fiat to btc probably remains: hire a buterin, orchestrate media mouthpieces, watch the coin roll in.
kakobrekla: is the cobol source of the i presume ex swedish tax legislation online anywhere
mod6: <+kakobrekla> prolly costs more to store this line in the logs. << lol
decimation: it will be interesting to see what happens to the bitcoin price when the COIN ETF turns on
decimation: poor exploit << sounds like a router hack
decimation: s/poor/pool
FabianB: ;;cal 84000 / 600.0
gribble: Error: "cal" is not a valid command.
decimation: asciilifeform it seems to me that a router is exactly the kind of device that 'wants' to be a dataflow architechture,
asciilifeform: decimation: everything 'wants' to be dataflow arch.
asciilifeform: 'when two objects of unknown types encounter one another, does the Universe throw an exception ?'
decimation: yet cisco make obscure turdware and charge you to learn how to use it
decimation: lol that's a good quote
FabianB: ;;calk 84000 / 600.0
gribble: Error: "calk" is not a valid command.
FabianB: ;;calkc 84000 / 600.0
gribble: Error: "calkc" is not a valid command.
kakobrekla: but the unknowness is a presumption
assbot: Startup Cities: Can entrepreneurship save politics? -
decimation: "I met one trashpicker named Miriam who made her livelihood with her teenage daughter by selling plastic scraps for a dollar or two a day. She was telling me her story: the grinding poverty, the constant threat of extortion and murder by organized crime, the shooting of her husband, the sexual assaults on her daughter. In the middle of this heartbreaking story, her phone rings and she pulls out a nice smart phone, texts someone, and
decimation: turns back to me like nothing happened. Miriam faces these ancient human problems of violence and poverty, yet she owns a futuristic technology like a smartphone. This haunted me for months."
assbot: four black painters - YouTube
[]bot: Bet placed: 1.69 BTC for Yes on "Tesla stock to close at over $250 in 2014" Odds: 92(Y):8(N) by coin, 91(Y):9(N) by weight. Total bet: 23.79454688 BTC. Current weight: 74,044.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 343 @ 0.01 = 3.43 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 412 @ 0.0018896 = 0.7785 BTC [-] {6}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 141 @ 0.01488 = 2.0981 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21900 @ 0.00091225 = 19.9783 BTC [-] {3}
ben_vulpes: everyone's getting 18% returns in the fiat market, and looking at me like the crazy one when i shake my head at the ridiculousness of it all.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24947 @ 0.00091213 = 22.7549 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 57 @ 0.01488 = 0.8482 BTC [+]
assbot: Avalancha Opens Online Store to Argentina's Bitcoin Shoppers
assbot: Schneier on Security: The US Intelligence Community has a Third Leaker
mike_c: ;;calc (194000 / [ticker --last]) - 314.6
gribble: 14.213559322
thickasthieves: TSLA closed above $250
mircea_popescu: <decimation> turns back to me like nothing happened. Miriam faces these ancient human problems of violence and poverty, yet she owns a futuristic technology like a smartphone. This haunted me for months." <<< all this meaningless bs. was the daughter hawt is all i want to know.
FabianB: $vwap s.mpoe
empyex: FabianB: S.MPOE 1 day: average: 0.00091986 high: 0.00094217 low: 0.00091213 volume: 642781 btc: 591.26873708 7 day: average: 0.00086209 high: 0.00094217 low: 0.00080628 volume: 3327774 btc: 2868.85610629 30 day: average: 0.00082003 high: 0.00094217 low: 0.00074501 volume: 9532989 btc: 7817.31985028
FabianB: $vwap s.nsa
empyex: FabianB: S.NSA 1 day: average: 0.000101 high: 0.000101 low: 0.000101 volume: 1 btc: 0.000101 7 day: average: 0.000101 high: 0.000101 low: 0.000101 volume: 1 btc: 0.000101 30 day: average: 0.000101 high: 0.000101 low: 0.000101 volume: 3 btc: 0.000303
FabianB: $vwap
empyex: FabianB: S.MG 1 day: average: 0.000091 high: 0.000091 low: 0.000091 volume: 1 btc: 0.000091 7 day: average: 0.000091 high: 0.000091 low: 0.000091 volume: 1 btc: 0.000091 30 day: average: 0.000091 high: 0.000091 low: 0.000091 volume: 3 btc: 0.000273
mircea_popescu: pankkake third obvious one, anyway.
mike_c: mircea, you sweating yet? warren is still winning.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26050 @ 0.00091135 = 23.7407 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: 80 miles per hour question - YouTube
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32750 @ 0.00091077 = 29.8277 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: mike_c what's a k to me.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3700 @ 0.00091242 = 3.376 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41880 @ 0.00091199 = 38.1941 BTC [-] {2}
TheNewDeal: was that thermo picture really a bra?
mike_c: TheNewDeal: weren't you the one who liked late easy money bets on bitbet? you should check out the current game of the week on WoL.
mike_c: definitely some late game opportunities brewing.
TheNewDeal: i have no atc
mike_c: i meant the btc game
TheNewDeal: i didnt know yall supported that yet
mike_c: indeed. full featured.
TheNewDeal: game of the week you say?
assbot: Game 22 - Death 9300 Life 700 Year 930 - War of Life
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16950 @ 0.00091077 = 15.4376 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: 0.800000000.4911-0.7595 ouch
TheNewDeal: that's what one gets for betting on life
mircea_popescu: mike_c here's something i dont get
mircea_popescu: 57010.1084-0.7710
mircea_popescu: so the 1 buying at .1 lost 77%, whereas the .8 buying at 49 lost 90%
mircea_popescu: shouldn't the difference between .1 and .5 count for more than .23 to .1 ?
mike_c: absolutely, and it would/will.
mike_c: the thing is, there is currently a bunch of free money on the table.
mircea_popescu: "shouldn't the difference between .1 and .5 count for more than .23 to .1 in any and all circumstances" ? i guess
mike_c: so when it gets picked up it will increase the worth of life shares, and the guy who bought at .1 won't be so hurt.
mircea_popescu: but that's really besides the point
mike_c: ;;calc 0.7595 / 0.8
gribble: 0.949375
mike_c: ;;calc 0.77 / 1
gribble: 0.77
mircea_popescu: oh i see
mircea_popescu: ;;calc (.23 / .0507)
gribble: 4.53648915187
mircea_popescu: same proportion roughly huh.
mircea_popescu: nm, rounding was playing a number on me.
TheNewDeal: speaking of free money, tesla made me some good money today
mircea_popescu: but was it free.
mircea_popescu: cool then
TheNewDeal: well technically the stock could have dropped 1.50 in the last hour, so there was *some* risk
mircea_popescu: stocks peak all the time.
mike_c: no way, stocks can't peak in bezzle world.
TheNewDeal: yes indeed, it peaked at 256 something earlier in the day
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26300 @ 0.00091049 = 23.9459 BTC [-] {2}
TheNewDeal: mike_c, which side am i supposed to buy shares upon?
mike_c: death. you know, if you think it's a good idea.
mircea_popescu: there should be a new constitutional amendment. "no one may run for elected office, be it presidential, as member of congress or senate or any other, who can not recite the entirety of all laws, regulations etc"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12700 @ 0.00091227 = 11.5858 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30483 @ 0.00091066 = 27.7596 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: << 'terrorist identities datamart environment' >> parody horizon ?
kakobrekla: it looks nicer in rl though.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9021 @ 0.00091043 = 8.213 BTC [-]
mike_c: cool, what's the screen from?
mike_c: you should make the text run vertically with lines in columns instead of rows. then do your best matrix impression.
kakobrekla: not what but where. china.
kakobrekla: it has a built in matrix thingy, if you misaddress the pointer to the screen line it will automatrix.
mike_c: heh
kakobrekla: the purpose of this gadget is not irc. what is it? not tellin. do what i want.
lobbes: <mircea_popescu> there should be a new constitutional amendment. "no one may run for elected office, be it presidential, as member of congress or senate or any other, who can not recite the entirety of all laws, regulations etc" << Does that include all migratory bird treaties?
mike_c: lobbes: or.. there shouldn't be migratory bird treaties. it's like flat tax. simple, yet insufficient.
lobbes: yeah, it is pretty ridiculous
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9700 @ 0.0009142 = 8.8677 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7768 @ 0.00091019 = 7.0704 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: i've one quite like this.
kakobrekla: at this point, i would be surprised if you didnt!
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: unsurprisingly, i've an embarrassingly large collection of these
asciilifeform: and is that a beheaded model m ?
kakobrekla: so called 'space saver'
asciilifeform: aha guessed as much.
asciilifeform never understood the need to save 'space' by abolishing numbers pad - unless living in a ship, manned capsule of some other variety
kakobrekla: i use a mouse.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 253 @ 0.00407389 = 1.0307 BTC [+] {5}
asciilifeform: for numbers ?!
kakobrekla: lol no, but numpad get in the way and im not much into numerical data entry.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: lathe coordinates ?
kakobrekla: not in a long time.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24317 @ 0.00091545 = 22.261 BTC [+] {3}
asciilifeform recently bought a 'proper' lathe - no coordinates, just cranks...
kakobrekla: the only thing i miss is that far right enter for some reason but i have a programmable hw ps2 to usb converter and remaped keys / macros
asciilifeform has pretty much the entire numpad programmed as emacs knobs of one kind or another
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7500 @ 0.00091599 = 6.8699 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4789 @ 0.00091019 = 4.3589 BTC [-]
decimation: asciilifeform: I have found the extra function keys on my unicomp "model m like" keyboard to be extremely useful for emacs
kakobrekla: fyi you can remap any key to act as a layer switch so have n of different full layouts
decimation: re: keyboards in space capsules: spacex went with a touchscreen with "emergency keys" >
assbot: SpaceX shows off Dragon V2, its brand new manned space capsule | Ars Technica
decimation: kakbrekla: do you mean something beyond the usual ctrl-meta combinations?
kakobrekla: theres a number of ways to achieve that, currently im using
assbot: tmk/tmk_keyboard GitHub
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12500 @ 0.00090935 = 11.3669 BTC [-]
kakobrekla: you can do most if not all of those tricks in os instead but ps2 is becoming a rarity anyway.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: what i thought you had:
assbot: Happy Buckling Keyboard
kakobrekla: restored, bolt modded.
decimation: huh do they have a unicomp controller gizmo? I assume it's a clone of the model m with usb gadget
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5600 @ 0.00090834 = 5.0867 BTC [-]
kakobrekla: well you need to do that if you take it apart and put it together ... or what
assbot: Nut Bolt Mod for IBM Model M - Imgur
kakobrekla: decimation who has what?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14500 @ 0.00090834 = 13.1709 BTC [-]
asciilifeform wants a stainless steel 'model m', will probably end up making it personally at some point
decimation: replacement firmware for the unicomp keyboard:
assbot: Unicomp, Inc.: Spacesaver M / Mac OS X
kakobrekla: what is it that you want to achieve?
decimation: so this layer hack is a function of the firmware on the keyboard?
kakobrekla: my setup takes in ps2 signal, but you can hook it up directly to the keyboard matrix
decimation: ah I see, so it's hardware "matrix switch"?
kakobrekla: you can hook it up to something like
assbot: Teensy USB Development Board
kakobrekla: decimation scroll down that github page it should be clear
asciilifeform: 'What bothers me is that you are saying what the agency wants us to believe -- they used to be great, but these days they have trouble reading the newspaper, the Internet is too complicated for them, there is so much traffic and they can't find what they want. It may be true, but it is what they have been 'saying' for years. It's convenient for N.S.A. to have its targets believe it is in trouble.'
asciilifeform: (attributed to... Whitfield Diffie. circa 1999.
asciilifeform: (linked piece, otherwise is tedious crud)
decimation: asciilifeform it seems that the meta-nsa doesn't exist in reality
decimation: Hayden emphasized that the personnel problems are far less significant than the technological ones: "The issue is not people but external changes. For the N.S.A., technology is a two-edged sword. If technology in the outside world races away from us -- at breakneck speed -- our mission is more difficult. It can be our enemy."
assbot: #bitcoin-assets log
decimation: yeah I think you are probably right
decimation: at any rate it's not clear to me that clowns like Hayden or Alexander would even recognize skills if they saw them
asciilifeform: decimation: no actual need for this
asciilifeform: the real, long-term decisions are made at the level below political appointee
asciilifeform: (that is, by folks who have lifetime careers in the service)
decimation: if such people exist, they are probably pretty sad these days, given the point made a few weeks ago about how they would have to live as paupers
asciilifeform: paupers? you ever meet u.s. civil service folks?
decimation: well, it depends where they are on the pay scale I guess
asciilifeform: they aren't rich, in the customary sense (they must work, and are expected to follow a variety of curious social rituals, including living in very particular places) - but not paupers.
assbot: Washington-Baltimore-Northern Virginia, DC-MD-VA-WV-PA - Annual Rates by Grade and Step
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11919 @ 0.00090834 = 10.8265 BTC [-]
decimation: I wonder how many young technical folks joining the civil service are offered more than $60k?
asciilifeform: decimation: nsa, cia, nga - not subject to the traditional 'gs' ranks system
asciilifeform: they have their own
asciilifeform: what it is - i've no idea, but it was supposedly leaked not long ago; if you care, find it
peterl: who sells just one share of and s.nsa?
decimation: " Salary is commensurate with education and experience. Salary range: $52,146 to $116,90"
asciilifeform: no longer seekrit, apparently.
asciilifeform actually applied for that same job once
decimation: Come live in Maryland, pay $500k for house with schools, get paid $80k per year - for your country
decimation: this goes back to Mircea's point - USG "wants" things, but it can't really afford them - it's running on the "fumes" of past memories
kakobrekla: peterl: jimmothy
asciilifeform: ;;google senior executive service pay
gribble: Senior Executive Service Compensation - Office of Personnel ...: <>; Senior Executive Service - Office of Personnel Management: <>; Executive Senior Level - Office of Personnel Management: < (1 more message)
asciilifeform: there's about 10,000 of them.
peterl: kakobrekla: You think he has enough money to afford that much?
assbot: Facts & Figures
asciilifeform: ^ interestingly, no data post-2010.
kakobrekla: peterl i imagine faucets still paying out
asciilifeform: 'ses' are the people who actually run usg.
decimation: asciilifeform: Below are entry-level salaries (including locality pay) for several different skill fields. (Entry-level is defined as having a Bachelor's Degree or equivalent work experience.) Language Analysis & Intelligence Analysis $42,209 Computer Science $55,293 * Mathematics $51,894 * Computer/Electrical Engineering $56,375*
assbot: Frequently Asked Questions about the National Security Agency (NSA)
mike_c: peterl: it looked like fabian was testing mpex tools.
decimation: ah the model M terminal keyboard to usb hack is cool
decimation: I still don't understand why serial terminals went out of style, seems like the perfect solution to point of sale units, etc
asciilifeform: decimation: because microshit decreed it
asciilifeform: can't run winblows on a serial term.
decimation: that's pretty much the equivalent of breaking windows, replacing them with more expensive (yet worse) windows (heh), and counting the whole project as a net positive GDP
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 314484 | Current Difficulty: 1.8736441558310238E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 314495 | Next Difficulty In: 11 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 hour, 39 minutes, and 37 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 19724887807.2 | Estimated Percent Change: 5.27553
atcbot: [ATC Diff] Current Diff: 687182.56 Est. Next Diff: 415114.30 in 66 blocks (#42336) Est. % Change: -39.59
assbot: IBM Model M F1 122 Key Vintage Terminal Keyboard Cleaned Bolt Mod USB Converted | eBay
decimation: probably worth the price if you are in a hurry
asciilifeform: decimation: these, if i recall, suck
asciilifeform: the keys don't send 'break' codes
asciilifeform: i have a (stock) 122, gathering dust
decimation: so this means the controller must poll?
asciilifeform: 'soarer's' converter is, if i recall, closed-source.
asciilifeform: this could mean - anything...
decimation: ah, yeah that sucks
asciilifeform has this keyboard and really wants to turn it into a useful thing
asciilifeform: but that means replacing all the silicon with something. and retrofitting leds.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10850 @ 0.00090945 = 9.8675 BTC [+] {2}
BingoBoingo: decimation: it will be interesting to see what happens to the bitcoin price when the COIN ETF turns on << "Paper" BTC sell
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35231 @ 0.00090819 = 31.9964 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34781 @ 0.00090319 = 31.4139 BTC [-] {2}
BingoBoingo: !up Shakespeare
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