5h 39m6d 23h 34m4d 21h 37m403d 13h 53m

Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [COG] 10 @ 0.08179999 = 0.818 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 73 @ 0.00539358 = 0.3937 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 128 @ 0.00539574 = 0.6907 BTC [+] {5}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 77 @ 0.00539999 = 0.4158 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15655 @ 0.00087423 = 13.6861 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: lmao @bash
KRS-One: .bait
KRS-One: .bait
ozbot: Darkplace - One Track Lover - YouTube
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06745001 = 0.3373 BTC [-]
moiety: merry 15th all! can get on with the rest of the year now.
moiety: wtf lol how to walk on ice? i've seen it all.. no, wait, re-enact that poster with gold crackhead...then i will have seen everything
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7900 @ 0.0008738 = 6.903 BTC [-] {2}
ozbot: Fenslerfilm GI Joe PSA 05 - ice - YouTube
ozbot: Mexican drug lord's house: You won't believe what the authorities found in this Mexican drug Lord's
cazalla: mi mi mi mi mi mi mi mi mi
cazalla: that's for you Duffer1
Duffer1: hehe
asciilifeform: moiety: probably a counterfeiter's shop, as well as whatever else they did.
mircea_popescu: anything good ?
Duffer1: lol
moiety: i actually think gold guns end up looking cheap
mircea_popescu: what's with people and gold guns
mircea_popescu: gold makes shitty gun
mircea_popescu: s
asciilifeform: plated.
asciilifeform: no one in his right mind would make an actual gold ak
mircea_popescu: or would they
moiety: i would like a rainbow sig
moiety: i bet they would if they could
moiety: rainbow sig: very pretty
asciilifeform: i say plated. the rivets are in the right places, and if it were solid gold, it'd be welded.
asciilifeform: unless it is a perversely slavish imitation.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14400 @ 0.00087371 = 12.5814 BTC [-] {2}
BingoBoingo: I dunno if a gold barrel could do anything other than explode.
moiety: no one swept me off my feet yesterday, yous will have to put up with me a bit longer,sorry
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: depends whether one insisted on firing it...
moiety: would gold not just melt or buckle on firing?
asciilifeform: certainly.
asciilifeform: the most interesting thing in the picture is, well... not actually in the picture.
asciilifeform: that is: 'why now'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5866 @ 0.00087454 = 5.1301 BTC [+]
B007: I made a bash script to txt me hourly google trends; should be interesting
asciilifeform: anyone else find it curious that these 'bust' photos never seem to feature gold bars?
asciilifeform: or even simulacra thereof
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 6 @ 0.55498489 = 3.3299 BTC [+] {5}
moiety: i hadn't thought of that but it's a really good point, i would rather bars than all those notes
asciilifeform: likewise, quite a few of these shots look rather familiar.
asciilifeform: hence, probably a stage set.
asciilifeform: unless all the mexican barons share the same lion.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9100 @ 0.00087454 = 7.9583 BTC [+]
moiety: lololol
moiety: nice house though
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [COG] 36 @ 0.08977719 = 3.232 BTC [+] {7}
moiety: i thought that was wrong
moiety: they say black leopards... they are jaguars
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I imagine the gold bars are better concealed than the plated firearms.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [COG] 8 @ 0.10999999 = 0.88 BTC [+]
moiety: bars are aninvestment, guns are a collection though
asciilifeform: what, then, are the benjamins?
moiety: ijust mean you dont get bars to look at and put in cabinets
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: The Benjamins are probably toilet paper
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4050 @ 0.00087454 = 3.5419 BTC [+]
Vexual: Hey BingoBoingo, did your openex withdrewing work?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i always imagined they're non-functioning
mircea_popescu: not even holes drilled in the barrel
BingoBoingo: Vexual: It did indeed
Vexual: Thre cool, thanks
mircea_popescu: anyone here ?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Any reason to try it. Homepage only seems to have buzzwords
mircea_popescu: no but it linked to trilema lots
mircea_popescu: so i figured 50-50 it's sopmeone here.
Vexual: only 360 readers?
mircea_popescu: anyway, since im in there some gems :
mircea_popescu: - http://log.bitcoin-assets.com122138
mircea_popescu: [...]
mircea_popescu: - http://www.loper-os.org7373
mircea_popescu: -
mircea_popescu: seems stan beats atlantic media.
BingoBoingo: lol
mircea_popescu: considering how much that adventure cost...
BingoBoingo: I've been finding odd content aggregators linking me from the start.
mircea_popescu: yeah there's a slew of those
mircea_popescu: etcetc
B007: mircea_popescu: what would you pay 1000 btc for?
mircea_popescu: the new york times
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I hope you mean the whole operation.
mircea_popescu: well yes.
Vexual: Imagine the page 3 girls
B007: I wonder if bitcoin is going to go up
B007: maybe I should buy
asciilifeform: afaik mouse is a lameraggregator.
asciilifeform: slurps crap from reddit et al.
mircea_popescu: o via reddit huhg
Vexual: manifesto from emporer
BingoBoingo: Vexual: And NYT doesn't have page 3 girls, yet...
Vexual: no i might have been confusing it with the sun
Vexual: what stock prices would you print for exchanges that don't close?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14500 @ 0.00087391 = 12.6717 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: 24hrw
ozbot: Ellen Page Comes Out As Gay: 'I Am Tired of Lying by Omission' (Exclusive) - The Hollywood Reporter
mircea_popescu: i guess she;s kind-of hot now
moiety: i was just reading that too
mircea_popescu: provided she doesn't start dating elen degeneratis or some shit
moiety: also got this people are dicks
assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 450 @ 0.00194567 = 0.8756 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: ew
Vexual: juno the one about the hot lesbian?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19100 @ 0.00087481 = 16.7089 BTC [+] {2}
moiety: what's again? south africa?
mircea_popescu: zaire ?
Vexual: south africa
moiety: so SA people send me a funeral notice (in scotland) for american funeral home. very good asshats
Vexual: zef as
mircea_popescu: wow it is sa
moiety: true arseholes are a special breed of people aren't they
Vexual: interesting place
Vexual: its a bit like australia if the dutch knocked it up first
moiety: i wouldn't like to go
moiety: i knew a girl here thatleft age 8 to live there, came back in her 20s
moiety: she hated it
mircea_popescu: i knew a girl that loved it, then got raped for being white, aged about 15,
mircea_popescu: then couldn't get anyone prosecuted for it out of the entire gang, so she left once she was 18
assbot: [MPEX] [S.NSA] 700 @ 0.000155 = 0.1085 BTC [+]
B007: wow
MisterE: moiety:
MisterE: looks like you got phished
moiety: wow raped because she was white?
mircea_popescu: kinda how it works in south africa.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5000 @ 0.00087543 = 4.3772 BTC [+]
MisterE: security for whites is crazy there
MisterE: armed guards with AKs and shit
MisterE: place is a mess yo
moiety: wow MisterE good to see. it did try to get me to d/l something but i cancelled it. will i be ok?
Vexual: isn't there 10+ spoken languages right in cape town?
mircea_popescu: moiety possibly.
MisterE: hope so moiety but your computer can download stuff without you knowing, especially if there any known vunerabilities in your browser
moiety: better run a malwarebytes scan then?
Vexual: are you in the market for a funeral?
MisterE: personally, if it's a win box I'd take it offline and boot up with a scanner boot disk
moiety: no i got all mine booked up last month Vexual
assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 450 @ 0.00212562 = 0.9565 BTC [+]
moiety: kk MisterE just scared me brb
assbot: [MPEX] [S.NSA] 4300 @ 0.000155 = 0.6665 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 450 @ 0.00195346 = 0.8791 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BBET] 1469 @ 0.00060598 = 0.8902 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15100 @ 0.00087565 = 13.2223 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5061 @ 0.00087565 = 4.4317 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 450 @ 0.00195346 = 0.8791 BTC [-]
ozbot: Jack Parow - Afrikaans is Dood - YouTube
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6800 @ 0.0008758 = 5.9554 BTC [+] {2}
moiety: \o/
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18700 @ 0.00087464 = 16.3558 BTC [-] {3}
Vexual: disease free?
ozbot: On July 29, 1914 pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
moiety: i hope so
moiety: 40 things!
moiety: yay i can read again
Vexual: i thought how in all probability noone alive on earth today bought that newspaper
Vexual: new yorkers dont live to 120 do they? all that smog
BingoBoingo: moiety: Do you want a loan you can apply to the purchase of trilema credits since you are in the WOT nao?
moiety: that's very kind and i would normally, but I'm not in a position to give myself deadlines at the moment BingoBoingo
benkay: i dunno moiety, you might be able to talk your way into a zero interest loan
benkay: spring bubble hasn't kicked in terribly hard yet
moiety: i just looked it up, i don;t actually need a loan, i just need to know how to buy now
moiety: it was last april it was low wasn't it? i remember
moiety: april/may time i think
mircea_popescu: benkay you mean asset boobl ?
BingoBoingo: moiety: Last february though there wasn't a prolongued dip like this.
moiety: but then china hadn't banned it last year
Vexual: get out in may and stay away
BingoBoingo: moiety: At this time last year the only serious Chinese involvement was ASICMiner.
BingoBoingo: ASICMIner was building to that really sharp bubble.
moiety: what's the current with bfl thesedays?
moiety: they had grovellers out in force in london in november
BingoBoingo: moiety: BFL still isn't shipping Monarchs
mircea_popescu: well they're only what, 5 months late ?
moiety: lol still? hhaha the guy at the london expo simply said: sorry
ozbot: Toto - Rosanna - YouTube
BingoBoingo: moiety: First rule of Bitcoin is anything happening in London is at best Lols.
Vexual: hehe
ozbot: Hohenfriedberger march + Prussian army - YouTube
BingoBoingo: So... I made about a 200% gain selling the bulk of my Altcoin today.
Vexual: i made 10% yesterday, who are we taking it from?
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo would you like to be my openex broker ? :D
Vexual: mike_c?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Maybe?
mircea_popescu: pankkake pls to pay to BingoBoingo 100k atc, let's see what he can do.
Vexual: fuck a man with a plan is the last thing i need
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo you get a month.
mircea_popescu: have fun.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: How much did you buy the ATC at?
Vexual: 125
Vexual: my guess
mircea_popescu: Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner! Auf, Ansbach-Bayreuth!
mircea_popescu: what diff does it make ?
KRS-One: .bait
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4200 @ 0.00087593 = 3.6789 BTC [+] {2}
KRS-One: damn its dark in there.
Vexual: lol krs-1 thats custom
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I'm just thinking if you have a target sort of gain I should shoot for.
mircea_popescu: nope.
Vexual: double the atc and bring back some btc
mircea_popescu: ^
BingoBoingo: I'll see what I can do.
mircea_popescu: don't get too wrapped up in it, it's alt after all.
BingoBoingo: Of course. I mean it wouldn't be worth it to copy the Doge profiteers and whore myself out in the name of Moon.
mircea_popescu: may its name be always cheez.
BingoBoingo: The z is important. No actual milk or rennet was used in the making of the cheez
Vexual: "we got the cheez!"
Vexual: scott cann:into the blue
BingoBoingo: This ATC trading thing would be so much easier if herbi was still in the game.
moiety: otc is not the place to paypal is it
BingoBoingo: moiety: It can be if both parties have rep appropriate to the amount being traded.
BingoBoingo: Paypal/Ebay have been on an anit-BTC warpath recently though.
moiety: i spend all my time telling others not to bother lol
moiety: bitcoin isn't a very easy world is it
BingoBoingo: moiety: Have you read Mircea's variety speak article yet?
moiety: yes
BingoBoingo: Finding things that don't work is easy. Things that work though are unknowable until after the fact.
BingoBoingo: My favorite part of ATC trading is it is like all of the trading I have ever done.
Vexual: ditto
moiety: i'm just entirely fed up of the hassle
moiety: I've never managed to buy it yet because of one problem or another
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6100 @ 0.00087319 = 5.3265 BTC [-] {2}
Vexual: perhaps the nigerians are a sign
BingoBoingo: moiety: Never bought what?
moiety: btc
moiety: someone else has always done it for me
ozbot: Take The Money And Run - The Steve Miller Band (Lyrics + HQ) - YouTube
moiety: plus remember bingo, i was being paid it before, i had no need to buy
Vexual: nice
moiety: i only ever bought hosting with that, tipped the rest to other people
moiety: i have THE best email address BingoBoingo :D palindrome email address almost
Vexual: nigerians love palendromes
moiety: nigerians scare the hell out of me
moiety: all the compounds are armed guarded
Vexual: they see a palendromic email and theyre all like, this old coot is loaded!
Vexual: i should get for lolz
BingoBoingo: moiety: Back then you could have gotten BTC at $80 per
moiety: ik ik ik gah
moiety: will it ever dip that low again do you think?
BingoBoingo: moiety: Maybe on Gox?
moiety: lololol
moiety: gox will die this year surely?
Vexual: smells like a rouge goo dev
Vexual: paretheses ommitted
BingoBoingo: 10 K BTC sometime this year is more likely than $80 for BTC on any platform that can actually deliver BTC.
BingoBoingo: moiety: Gox died last summer.
moiety: it's just like the queen, just clining on to the throne
moiety: clinging
BingoBoingo: No, not like the Queen at all. More like Ariel Sharon, practically dead, brain dead, just kept fresh on a ventilator.
Vexual: with bigger arms
moiety: fair point, the queen doesn't breath oxygen
moiety: will you still be awake in half hour or so?
BingoBoingo: moiety: Well I mean the queen spent the last 8 years at least able to walk, and not simply on display in the produce department
moiety: i wouldn't be so sure. i'm convinced they have her on a trolley
moiety: Do you know why they are waiting for William?
BingoBoingo: moiety: No Idea.
moiety: Charles doesn't want to do it. -- according to Lord Mowbray
moiety: he doesn't have the balls apparently
moiety: they all think (including himself) he is a little soft for it, better for william to go straight in
moiety: random snippet for the day
Vexual: he does, the people don't
moiety: he doesnt though.
moiety: he cant make decisions
Vexual: he might have some regrets and marketing people, but he does
moiety: i think you misunderstood what i was saying
Vexual: its highly likely
moiety: if charles was to go and be king, he would have to give up all his Duke of Edinburgh responsibilities etc. He has balls, what I'm meaning is he couldn't do what *he* wanted specifically
moiety: he wanted more leaway to do all the charity and good things he does
moiety: i think harry wouldve been better
moiety: do they even have a role now?
moiety: apart from waving
Vexual: he has a range of preserves
Vexual: willys got an attack copter
moiety: he looks about 70 already
Vexual: im thinking you might be right
Vexual: what a very scottish way of convincing me
moiety: lol what...badly?!
Vexual: no very well sir
moiety: where are you from Vexual?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13950 @ 0.00087594 = 12.2194 BTC [+] {2}
Vexual: australie
moiety: oh election time for you then
Vexual: im not enrolled
moiety: i got enrolled to vote for independence
Vexual: cool
Vexual: i eamil secretarys when i need something done; infinitely fore effective
benkay: deploy capital
Vexual: its amazing how people will take unsolicited advice worded correctly
ozbot: Johnny Cash Hurt - YouTube
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2750 @ 0.00087599 = 2.409 BTC [+]
ozbot: Black Box Ride on Time [ 1989 ] HD version - YouTube
Vexual: how the fuck am i goona play bb with 100k?
BingoBoingo: Vexual: ?
BingoBoingo: Vexual: What's Batman's greatest weapon?
Vexual: i dunno
Vexual: the call to arms from the sky?
Vexual: oh
Vexual: time for another video
Vexual: don't answer that
BingoBoingo: Vexual: Deception.
Vexual: whaddya you mean, hes fucking batman
BingoBoingo: Huh, looks like I should have put more money on Slovenia than I did.
BingoBoingo: Vexual: Yeah. But he is good at deception. That is how he uses all of these high tech weapons while hiding he is almost as rich as Mircea.
Vexual: hmm
BingoBoingo: Vexual: I mean how many peopl in Gotham can afford Batman tools? Maybe 5-10?
ozbot: Dizzee Rascal - Dirtee Cash ( Offcial Video HQ.) - YouTube
Vexual: ny gotham or gotham gotham?
Vexual: gg yah?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4300 @ 0.000876 = 3.7668 BTC [+] {2}
BingoBoingo: Vexual: Imagination land version.
Vexual: ok
BingoBoingo: I actually had a neighbor named Batman once.
ozbot: Wiley - Wearing My Rolex (Official Music Video) - YouTube
moiety: sorry delayed response: Vexual: it's a national vote, i don't think they let you email it in
Vexual: lol
moiety: BingoBoingo: batman? please tell me there was also a Robin on your street
BingoBoingo: moiety: Nah. THis was grad school so we lived in the same building.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11206 @ 0.00087603 = 9.8168 BTC [+]
moiety: bound to have been a Robin too then.... ok, I'm satisfied
ozbot: Iggy Azalea - My World (OFFICIAL VIDEO) - YouTube
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.5584855 = 1.117 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 20 @ 0.56822498 = 11.3645 BTC [+] {4}
ozbot: Tatu - Nas Nie Dogoniat - YouTube
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 11 @ 0.57287264 = 6.3016 BTC [+] {4}
BingoBoingo: Fuck Yeah, Slovenia whooped the shit out of Slovakia.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 20 @ 0.5755599 = 11.5112 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 20 @ 0.58669728 = 11.7339 BTC [+] {8}
ozbot: Reporters Without Borders: United States plummets in Press Freedom Index
mircea_popescu: "Compared to other nations, the United States ranks just below Romania, and just above Haiti"
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 20 @ 0.58976433 = 11.7953 BTC [+] {6}
mircea_popescu: you know... haiti.
BingoBoingo: See Mircea, your blog has been safer than mine the whole time.
mircea_popescu: Much of Eastern and Central Europe rates better than the United States, and from Western Europe, only Italy rates worse.
mircea_popescu: italy. you know... the scum of yurp
mircea_popescu: seems so lol
BingoBoingo: Well, Ever since the Etruscans, Italy has been kind of fucked
mircea_popescu: In January 2012, the SEC charged an Illinois-based investment adviser with offering to sell fictitious securities on LinkedIn and issued two alerts in an agency-wide effort to highlight the risks investors and advisory firms face when using social media. Anthony Fields offered more than $500 billion in fictitious securities through various social media websites. For example, he used LinkedIn discussions to promote fict
mircea_popescu: itious “bank guarantees” and “medium-term notes.”
mircea_popescu: sooo... anyone want to guess as to the guy's bitcointalk name ?
BingoBoingo: That's before my time.
BingoBoingo: Imma guess Augusto Croppo?
chetty: hmm something Trader ..
mircea_popescu: i have no idea whatsoever, just guessing
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10300 @ 0.00087604 = 9.0232 BTC [+] {2}
BingoBoingo: Phineas is the only other Illinoisian, but Anthony and Bruno are different names.
BingoBoingo: Dunno if Augusto is Illinoisian, but Anthony sounds like a name that might degrade to that nick.
mircea_popescu: nominalism seems hardly grounds to impugn anyone.
BingoBoingo: Of course not.
BingoBoingo: Which is why I made a stab in the dark thinking someone who offered the question might have had the name in mind.
Vexual: wheres the real estate guy?
BingoBoingo: Vexual: Ohio
BingoBoingo: Chicago's way outside of my area of operation anyways.
Vexual: yeah i now that, if hes buying millies he should know about the whole country
BingoBoingo: I mean they built their downtown around an open sewer
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.588 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: Several of my favorite memories from Undergrad involve throwing up or shitting into the Chicago river.
Vexual: fuck id need many tributaries to manage that
BingoBoingo: Vexual: It worked out, because there were Sherpas in the group I traveled to Chicago with. Nobody handles sick ghostfaces better than Sherpas.
pankkake: BingoBoingo: ATC address?
BingoBoingo: pankkake: 14UCZyAxu73kF18SrsR6Ud6Xcy1ZnVWfTA
pankkake: sent
BingoBoingo: pankkake: Recieved.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4284 @ 0.00087308 = 3.7403 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I'm ready to see what I can do by the Ides of March
mircea_popescu: o hey that works out splendidly doesn't it. teh ideas of march.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9399 @ 0.00087282 = 8.2036 BTC [-] {2}
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Of course.
pankkake: I wonder how many have stopped mining atc waiting for the diff to come down
mircea_popescu: kind of self feeding cycle that neh ?
pankkake: long diff periods definitely don't work for altcoins
BingoBoingo: pankkake: I wouldn't be surprised if kakobrekla is waiting for the drop to fire up the Buttfuries
Vexual: my 7770 wont cut it
Vexual: even p2pool
Vexual: when that new am shit dropping?
BingoBoingo: Oh, roughly 12 hours until my birthday starts.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7500 @ 0.00087228 = 6.5421 BTC [-] {2}
Vexual: ukyo could point his machines at it and get red by summer
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4137 @ 0.00087552 = 3.622 BTC [+] {3}
Vexual: it's my cat's birthday
BingoBoingo: Vexual, I may or may not be your cat in disguise
Vexual: yar, i don't know what im doing
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13450 @ 0.00087671 = 11.7917 BTC [+] {3}
BingoBoingo: Vexual: Maybe lock your cat in the closet and if I keep responding on IRC, you can by empiricism demonstrate I am not your cat.
Vexual: actual cat?
BingoBoingo: Vexual: The only meanigful test is actual empiricism
Vexual: i thought my cat was somewhere eating things...
BingoBoingo: Vexual: Eating things or communicating through a mouth operated Internet device.
ozbot: ZeekRewards Receivership Website
mircea_popescu: anyone remember those ?
BingoBoingo: Nope
mircea_popescu: at the time pirate ran his 7% a week thing, there was an irl 7% a week thing
mircea_popescu: that.
mircea_popescu: after pirate collapsed people speculated there was some relation.
BingoBoingo: I should have started a lot earlier
BingoBoingo: I missed the era of the stupid controlling an actual portion of the BTC monetary mass.
mircea_popescu: nutty times. everyone knew better.
mircea_popescu: ;;ticker
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 653.0, Best ask: 653.17, Bid-ask spread: 0.17000, Last trade: 653.0, 24 hour volume: 37379.48623285, 24 hour low: 625.0, 24 hour high: 712.9, 24 hour vwap: 662.084329952
BingoBoingo: I just regret that one of the hot active threads when I started was the Usagi == Scammer thread back before Deprived did a runner.
BingoBoingo: Time machine would be a better investment for anyone interested in BTC than an ASIC.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.588 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: I wonder how long people could be strung along on a time machine pre-order though.
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: make sure it has fans.
BingoBoingo: I'll make sure the photoshop shames Box of Fans Labs itself.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 6 @ 0.07200001 = 0.432 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: !t m x.eur
assbot: [MPEX:X.EUR] 1D: 0.00194567 / 0.00199455 / 0.00212562 (1800 shares, 3.59 BTC), 7D: 0.00194567 / 0.00198701 / 0.00212562 (3350 shares, 6.66 BTC), 30D: 0.0016245 / 0.00177273 / 0.00212562 (22850 shares, 40.51 BTC)
mircea_popescu: how the fuck has this been trading at 0.002
mircea_popescu: the eur is like 300 neh ?
BingoBoingo: Maybe davout is slacking?
pankkake: ThickAsThieves: I realize coinmarketcap actually wants number of coins, not number of blocks. I fixed it, replace "blocks" by "coins" in the URL I gave you
mircea_popescu: make a fucking killing, buy futures worth 0.003 at 0.002
mircea_popescu: i guess everyone was slacking
BingoBoingo: Well, operation dominate the ATC market may have begun?
FabianB: ;;calc 1/0.00212518
gribble: 470.548377079
FabianB: ;;ticker --market all --currency eur
gribble: MtGox BTCEUR last: 244.1, vol: 7081.41796619 | Bitstamp BTCEUR last: 473.79027, vol: 36481.52612339 | BTC-E BTCEUR last: 465.0, vol: 532.78059 | CampBX BTCEUR last: 475.3602, vol: 314.60590746 | BTCChina BTCEUR last: 478.829596, vol: 13103.20800000 | Volume-weighted last average: 446.584660985
assbot: 123!
FabianB: < 300 eur is only gox
mircea_popescu: ah i just looked at bitcoincharts basket
mircea_popescu: i guess they killed mtgoxusd but not eur
FabianB: looks like future is priced ok
pankkake: bitcoin-central is 485
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 1/485
gribble: 0.0020618556701
pankkake: and still not on bitcoincharts!
mircea_popescu: FabianB good to see the mkt is actually healthjy, i had a moment of panic.
FabianB: nah, looks good
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 0.00212562 / 0.0016245
gribble: 1.30847645429
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 0.00212562 / 00.00194567
gribble: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 0.00212562 / 0.00194567
gribble: 1.09248742079
mircea_popescu: you know that is beautiful, 1.30 for 30 days, 1.09 for the week
mircea_popescu: anyway, im off. gl everyone.
kakobrekla: grenade launcher to you too.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4200 @ 0.00087552 = 3.6772 BTC [-]
davout: hi all
BingoBoingo: Hai davout
davout: "how the fuck has this been trading at 0.002" <- I WTF'd
davout: :D
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5900 @ 0.00087552 = 5.1656 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 3 @ 0.12210003 = 0.3663 BTC [-]
kakobrekla: what is 'this' ?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 100 @ 0.0055 = 0.55 BTC
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 5 @ 0.07379895 = 0.369 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 4 @ 0.12210003 = 0.4884 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 4 @ 0.19376446 = 0.7751 BTC [+]
kakobrekla: ;;calc 20000/356
gribble: 56.1797752809
BingoBoingo: K, everybody. Altcoin is ready for the Moon. Imma get some sleep.
davout: kakobrekla: X.EUR
kakobrekla: a a.
kakobrekla: BingoBoingo : grenade lancher!
kakobrekla: launcher
BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: Of course. It is the best sounds to go to sleep to.
kakobrekla: :)
BingoBoingo: Napalm scented candles are relaxing too.
kakobrekla: lel can you get those?!
BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: You can make them.
kakobrekla: myea i guess so
kakobrekla: need some azn meat first or smth
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 200 @ 0.00087552 = 0.1751 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: Is goat azn enough?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12569 @ 0.00087707 = 11.0239 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 7 @ 0.07379895 = 0.5166 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 10 @ 0.12210003 = 1.221 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 9 @ 0.19376446 = 1.7439 BTC [+]
kakobrekla: lol
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.07379895 = 0.2214 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.NSA] 9930 @ 0.00017 = 1.6881 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8288 @ 0.00087716 = 7.2699 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.53580001 = 1.0716 BTC [-] {2}
ozbot: Gene Burnett - Jump You F*#kers (A Song For Wall Street) - YouTube
ThickAsThieves: "At one point during the debate a brawl broke out in which one MP from the opposition Republican People's Party (CHP) had his nose broken."
ThickAsThieves: (Turkish)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1792 @ 0.00087336 = 1.5651 BTC [-] {2}
the20year1: what country ThickAsThieves?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 450 @ 0.0002249 = 0.1012 BTC [-]
ozbot: BBC News - Turkish MPs pass judicial reforms amid brawl
Diablo-D3: yeah, turkey needs to figure out their shit
ThickAsThieves: there's a pic too
ThickAsThieves: of the bloody nosed guy
Diablo-D3: this is not how you conduct a democracy
kakobrekla: says some american douche
Diablo-D3: kakobrekla: I never said the USA was a democracy
punkman: I think we should have more politician brawls
Diablo-D3: but if this happened in congress, I'd want both the guy being hit and the guy hitting to be both expelled
kakobrekla: are we again playing 'i want' game?
Diablo-D3: no
Diablo-D3: because you're trolling
Diablo-D3: and you dont deserve to play it
ThickAsThieves: shit, if our politicians actually got in fistfights, americans might even pay attention to politics
ThickAsThieves: "hey bro, glad to see our coins have the same name 'ALTCOIN', can we work together? what's your plan on thealtcoin ATC?"
punkman: ThickAsThieves, not really worth the attention
ThickAsThieves: so many people ask me this
ThickAsThieves: what are my plans!>
punkman: but why not have opposing sides actually fight to pass legislation
the20year1: back in the day in the US, people would get in knife fights in congress
kakobrekla: ThickAsThieves world domination naturally.
ThickAsThieves: thanks kako, a simple enough reply
kakobrekla: o Diablo-D3 butthurt eh
kakobrekla: U CANT HAZ PLAY THIS NO!!
kakobrekla: BUT I WANT.
Diablo-D3: hahaha I just trolled kakobrekla
ozbot: 'Sesame Street Fighter' Is a Real Game - ANIMAL
kakobrekla: i dunno who did what or who did who or what did who but i have the banhammer and i dont like your style.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.073 = 0.219 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 97 @ 0.00508498 = 0.4932 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 3 @ 0.12210003 = 0.3663 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12341 @ 0.00087407 = 10.7869 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12794 @ 0.00087314 = 11.171 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.12210005 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.19376446 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 5 @ 0.19376446 = 0.9688 BTC [+]
monkey: !last h am1
assbot: Last trade for AM1 on HAVELOCK was at 0.53580001 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6500 @ 0.00087407 = 5.6815 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6900 @ 0.00087286 = 6.0227 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26982 @ 0.00087214 = 23.5321 BTC [-] {4}
Mats_cd03: goxbtc continues to sail into the ground
praeconium: Is it possible to pull out coins?
Mats_cd03: lolno
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 585 @ 0.00021584 = 0.1263 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 677 @ 0.00021523 = 0.1457 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7600 @ 0.00087215 = 6.6283 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4900 @ 0.00087407 = 4.2829 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] [PAID] 1.63932407 BTC to 1`709 shares, 95923 satoshi per share
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] [PAID] 1.02106640 BTC to 77`944 shares, 1310 satoshi per share
benkay: pretty lulzy
benkay: slow day, dexX7?
dexX7: hehe yea
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44700 @ 0.00087224 = 38.9891 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 10000 @ 0.00022735 = 2.2735 BTC [+] {9}
benkay: (format "butts %s %s" "foo" \n)
benkay: oh excuse me that was meant for my repl
benkay: not caffinated yet
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 725 @ 0.00022749 = 0.1649 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3 @ 0.06899999 = 0.207 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10850 @ 0.00087182 = 9.4592 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.123 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49100 @ 0.00087091 = 42.7617 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [COG] 25 @ 0.10771993 = 2.693 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [COG] 10 @ 0.11389999 = 1.139 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2278 @ 0.00087038 = 1.9827 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.123 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIF] 690 @ 0.00043921 = 0.3031 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10850 @ 0.00087008 = 9.4404 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [7C] 72 @ 0.00492365 = 0.3545 BTC [-] {4}
francis_wolke: The designated occasion for clearing Babylonia's financial slate was the New Year festival, celebrated in the spring. Babylonian rulers oversaw the ritual "breaking of the tablets," that is, the debt records, restoring economic balance as part of the cyclical renewal of society along with the rest of nature. Hammurabi and his fellow rulers signaled
francis_wolke: these proclamations by raising a torch, probably symbolizing the sun-god of justice Shamash, whose principles where supposed to guide wise and fair rulers. Persons held as debt pledges were released to rejoin their families. Other debtors were restored cultivation rights to their customary lands, free of whatever mortgage liens had accumulated.
francis_wolke: Over the next several thousand years, this same list -- canceling the debts, destroying the records, reallocating the land -- was to become the standard list of demands of peasant revolutionaries everywhere. In Mesopotamia, rulers appear to have headed off the possibility of unrest by instituting such reforms themselves, as a grand gesture of cosmi
francis_wolke: c renewal, a recreation of the social universe -- in Babylonia, during the same ceremony in which the king reenacts his godMurduk's creation of the physical universe. The history of debt and sin was wiped out, and it was time to begin again. But it's also clear what they saw as the alternative: the world plunged into chaos, with farmers defecting t
francis_wolke: o swell the ranks of nomadic pastoralists, and ultimately, if the breakdown continued, returning to overrun the cities and destroy the existing economic order entirely.
francis_wolke: -- Debt: the First 5,000 Years, page 216
francis_wolke: Interesting quote. Apologies for the extra \n - I don't know how they got there between copying from emacs and pasting into the irc client.
Apocalyptic: next time you know just pastebin it
benkay: why buy debt when someone's going to come along and break your tablets shortly thereafter?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.124 BTC [+]
benkay: halp i'm frying too much potato
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12500 @ 0.00087393 = 10.9241 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 8 @ 0.19376446 = 1.5501 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 4648 @ 0.00021526 = 1.0005 BTC [-] {6}
francis_wolke: benkay: Fiat - you'll have more to lend out shortly thereafter?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 3 @ 0.19376446 = 0.5813 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 2 @ 0.124 = 0.248 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 158 @ 0.00083559 = 0.132 BTC [+]
francis_wolke: Is this a reasonable theory? If not - why?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10807 @ 0.00086971 = 9.399 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3587 @ 0.00086947 = 3.1188 BTC [-]
Apocalyptic: "Anyone intelligent enough to create Bitcoin will have aligned themselves with some sort of governmental body" lol
francis_wolke: Apocalyptic: Why do you lol?
Apocalyptic: i wonder what advantage do you seen in the creator aligning with a government
Apocalyptic: will let mircea comment on that, i'm sure he will have interesting things to say
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 4 @ 0.02579997 = 0.1032 BTC [+]
ThickAsThieves: the dude is nuts
francis_wolke: Apocalyptic: Personally, I'm digging life, and would like to continue it for as long as possible.
francis_wolke: Apocalyptic: Radical life extension is going to require some state support.
benkay: why?
benkay: more specifically, why will rle require state support?
benkay: also you're missing the part where the state isn't really its own agent but more accurately a tool of the ultra-capitalized who will be the main beneficiaries of RLE in any event.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 156 @ 0.0028231 = 0.4404 BTC [-] {6}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 4 @ 0.07501002 = 0.3 BTC [-]
benkay: buuuuut it's just vastly more likely that bitcoin will shatter all fiat states than support their continued reign.
benkay: in that frame, why would anyone smart enough to read the implications of a non-state ultimately fungible currency align themselves with a state that's doomed?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 500 @ 0.00277726 = 1.3886 BTC [-] {13}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [7C] 20 @ 0.00638999 = 0.1278 BTC [+] {2}
benkay: and RLE is a symptom of the too much money problem
pankkake: that thing is geopolitics for toddlers or something
benkay: "if the nsa cannot" oh my lols
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 250 @ 0.00275 = 0.6875 BTC [-] {3}
francis_wolke: benkay: Please, crucify me. I'm not going to get pissy or anything.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIF] 835 @ 0.00038327 = 0.32 BTC [-] {13}
benkay: mebbe later
benkay: dog ams need romp
benkay: also your feelings don't really factor into whether or not i take you to the woodshed
francis_wolke: Glad to hear it.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [KCIM] 83 @ 0.003394 = 0.2817 BTC [-]
pankkake: it must be some sort of troll, where every sentence is wrong, or impossible, etc.
benkay: but hey you're a lisper so i likely won't get downright mean
benkay: ;)
pankkake: "It may be within the realm of possibility that Israel controls Bitcoin" heavy sentence with no substance, "control" bitcoin what does it mean…
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 3101 @ 0.00022579 = 0.7002 BTC [+] {6}
francis_wolke: pankkake: See the links on the word 'control' and 'bitcoin'
pankkake: "too fragmented to act as a cohesive whole" it doesn't have to
pankkake: "the center for cryptography / mathematics" there's no new crypto in bitcoin
francis_wolke: benkay: Also, I fail to see how bitcoin will 'shatter' any state. Millitary power is meaningful, no matter how clever the Bitcoin protocol.
pankkake: "the USG would kill it with fire" it can't
pankkake: inflation and war go hand in hand
francis_wolke: benkay: As for why RLE requires state support, if anyone gets *anywhere* with RLE, spooks are going to show up on their doorstep. The only question is - where do you want them to hail from?
francis_wolke: benkay: As for why RLE requires state support, if anyone gets *anywhere* with RLE, spooks are going to show up on their doorstep. They may not be required for the actual innovation. The only question is - where do you want them to hail from?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 8 @ 0.0257 = 0.2056 BTC [-]
francis_wolke: [Note: I appear to be unable to use this irc client. I held down backspace for 30 sec, couldn't navigate to any other text and revised my message. I post, and viola - my previous message is also posted! Apologies to anyone reading this diarrhea.]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 5000 @ 0.00023978 = 1.1989 BTC [+] {9}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1625 @ 0.00023988 = 0.3898 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: spooks are going to show up on their doorstep... sry if i came late and don't understand but why?
francis_wolke: jurov: Government is the formalization of power. Anyone doing anything interesting with radical life extension will have spooks on their doorstep momentarily. There are a number of powerful / rich people who don't want to die.
jurov: and you think they are dying (pun intended) to get registered with govt in any way?
francis_wolke: jurov: Who? The creators of btc?
jurov: no the billionaires who will undergo life extension
jurov: for example i can't imagine our resident billionaire, mircea_popescu to rely upon government protection
jurov: in any way or shape
francis_wolke: jurov: ... MP is a billionaire?
jurov: they called him one, cuz $20k for openbsd
jurov: totally logical.
francis_wolke: jurov: I mean, yeah - but do we have actual numbers?
jurov: what was the market valuation of s.mpoe, is any mpex expert around?
jurov: !t m s.mpoe
assbot: [MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.00086657 / 0.00087355 / 0.00087717 (956594 shares, 835.64 BTC), 7D: 0.00084891 / 0.00086471 / 0.00087781 (7711255 shares, 6,668.04 BTC), 30D: 0.00082189 / 0.00090381 / 0.00101414 (28027503 shares, 25,331.72 BTC)
jurov: ;;calc 0.00087355*1e9
gribble: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
jurov: it is 873550 bitcoins atm
jurov: vhich is not very far from beelion $ . but that's besiedes the poi
jurov: *point
francis_wolke: jurov: RLE is still a while off, and millitary power dosn't cease to exist b/c Bitcoin. I'm sure that neither Peter Theil, or MP have any particular love for their respective governments. But they're not stupid and recognize that if some elite is going to extend their lifespans, they may need protection.
asciilifeform: francis_wolke: (author of first link in your piece speaking) you're half right. the flaw is that you are only including 'documented' ('flag, anthem, navy') powers.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15550 @ 0.00087103 = 13.5445 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: they don't need the protection. they just pwn the governemnt
francis_wolke: jurov: pwn the gov? Explain please.
francis_wolke: asciilifeform: I'm not aware of any others, but if you've got a reading list...
jurov: for example, general secretaries of politburo
jurov: were most ofted neposed only by death
jurov: *deposed
francis_wolke: asciilifeform: Also, thanks for keeping up the blog. I would have not learned about the LispM otherwise.
asciilifeform: we live in the great age of muppeteering.
jurov: and if they won't die for 100 years?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1300 @ 0.00023989 = 0.3119 BTC [+] {3}
jurov: many of people with extended lifespans will seek such a position, official or unofficial
francis_wolke: jurov: Well, yeah. And if you can't beat em...
asciilifeform: francis_wolke: if you ruled over a 'center of cryptography and mathematics,' would you wish this to be known to your enemies?
francis_wolke: asciilifeform: No.
Duffer1: where did come from?
francis_wolke: Duffer1: I transcribed it from a piece of paper I found lying on the ground.
Duffer1: fascinating
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [COG] 2 @ 0.119799 = 0.2396 BTC [+]
jurov: davout, did you forget the X.EUR again?
Duffer1: i can't speak about the historical finance part, but pretty much everything written about bitcoin itself is flat out wrong
francis_wolke: Duffer1: Please elaborate.
asciilifeform: francis_wolke: and so, when a government pumps out propaganda by the truckload re: how it maintains a stable of uniquely-capable cryptologic janissaries, what can you conclude?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 482 @ 0.0002399 = 0.1156 BTC [+]
jurov: that mp is the governemnt?
jurov: he maintains some such stables
Duffer1: start with the first assertion "..a handful of parties control bitcoin.." miners control bitcoin, anyone can edit/audit the code, but it's miners that vote with their hashpower to run updated versions or not
asciilifeform: Duffer1: the assumption that we know anything whatsoever regarding the distribution of the bulk of mining power is mistaken.
MisterE: handful is misleading
asciilifeform: i can make 1TH look like 1,000 1GH lamers. and so can you, and so can any spammer.
MisterE: hmm
Duffer1: a fair point
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.074 = 0.148 BTC [+]
MisterE: but why? I assume most miners no reason to deceive?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 300 @ 0.00083559 = 0.2507 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: MisterE: if you were the hypothetical king of the miners, you have every incentive to engineer a ruse like this.
MisterE: hmm yea if I had the most hashpower
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 32 @ 0.0055 = 0.176 BTC
Duffer1: the article attributes control of bitcoin to those hoarding the most, i was pointing out the power is in the hash
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1360 @ 0.00086947 = 1.1825 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: describing 'power' as a scalar is naive. there is power to destroy, for example, which is arguably held by whoever controls the satoshi mega-hoard
asciilifeform: and then there's the power to silently '51%'
asciilifeform: which may or may not be held by anyone
asciilifeform: and then there's the power to crunch the blockchain and squeeze out whatever truth is contained therein
asciilifeform: all three of these are quite distinct things.
Duffer1: but what controls bitcoin?
asciilifeform: once again 'controls' is a meaningless question
asciilifeform: what controls your index finger?
Apocalyptic: the associated muscles
Duffer1: there are innumerable external factors, but for purposes dissecting the statement: "Given that a handful of parties control Bitcoin..." is the answer not miners? (or the mining network)
asciilifeform: i.e. the six or so global telecoms with de-facto control over the net could switch it off like a lamp. (provisions against this scenario are quite feasible, but no one has cared to consider much less make them.)
asciilifeform: everyone seems intent on inventing the parachute after being thrown, rather than before.
asciilifeform: a more interesting question for 'political' aficionados could be 'who has the power to kill while making the death look like bad luck?' and 'who can silently bend the system towards some desired end'
asciilifeform: 'who controls', on the other hand, is uselessly vague.
asciilifeform: that is, do the fellows with the 'nuclear briefcases' - 'control bitcoin'? arguably they do...
asciilifeform: in the same sense that they 'control' the weather.
asciilifeform: you 'control' your car. but it will never fly, or sail.
francis_wolke: asciilifeform: I have not drawn my conclusions r.e. the janissaries based on propaganda. At least, I'm not aware of doing so.
mircea_popescu: o look, new names.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06899999 = 0.345 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: dexX7 not sure how accurate that sort of stuff is.
mircea_popescu: 2.47% of total traffic in last 3 months is social < that part was lulzy.
asciilifeform: francis_wolke: possibly the only organized undertaking modern rulers are any good at is: presenting elaborately misleading pictures of their capabilities.
mircea_popescu: francis_wolke you realise the entire breaking tablets thing is strictly a function of man's early monkey-like state and has no practical importance today. do you ?
francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: I don't.
mircea_popescu: yes well. back in those days a one year interval was far outside the mental abilities of even "specialist" "bankers" to plan.
mircea_popescu: society today relies on much more intelligent people.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the basic point that stands, supposing there is one, is that caging monkeys has a certain cost
mircea_popescu: the fact that the bulk of the live humans are about as stupid today as in 3000 bc has little bearing
asciilifeform: so the ROI on containing them isn't always positive.
mircea_popescu: they still wish and expect tvs running water and generally to be able to play around on the intenret.
francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: If the USD went to 0 btc - it would be a 'breaking of the tablets', regardless.
mircea_popescu: this requires an economy built by people who see more than a year into the future.
mircea_popescu: francis_wolke it would be the breaking of SOME tablets
mircea_popescu: ie, the stupid ones.
mircea_popescu: this happens all the time. there are 1000s of bankruptcy courts all over the world hearing millions of cases as we speak.
francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: Exactly. The point is that the middle and lower class keep working.
mircea_popescu: sure.
mircea_popescu: but this is in no way time based, and in no way a festival.
francis_wolke: Time-based? Festival?
mircea_popescu: yes. our discussion started with me asking if you realise the thing you quote has more to do with the mokeys involved than with anything of import today.
asciilifeform: modern monkey-handlers have not entirely abandoned the idea of 'populistic' gifts to their charges via mass expropriation (whether via debt forgiveness, abruptly nationalized industry, or whichever other tricks)
francis_wolke: exactly.
francis_wolke: And how do you get rid of $18 trillion in debt? And school loans. And housing loans. etc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i suspect the problem is more like this : if i give you a debt package, there will be a cost to evaluate its value. if that cost likely exceeds its value, you may opt to just throw the whole thing away.
mircea_popescu: francis_wolke you don't. ideally, you DONT MAKE THEM
mircea_popescu: not everybody needs a college degree, even if they're white, and even if their parents have "expectations".
asciilifeform: modern 'debt politics' is simply a maintenance of the historic norm (most humans being formally enslaved to someone or other) by other means.
francis_wolke: Agreed.
asciilifeform: 'kinder/gentler/paper' but otherwise effective.
francis_wolke: asciilifeform: have you read this:
mircea_popescu: or moreover it's simply THE maintenance of the historic norm, independent of human agency, which is being mentally digested in ways consecvent with the current social text.
asciilifeform: and there is never any question of turning them loose (that'd be the end of organized civilization as a concept) but change of masters.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's never any question of turning them loose because they just won't leave.
mircea_popescu: turning "them" lose is like turning the cockroaches in your kitchen "loose", admitting you live in ny.
asciilifeform: correct. it's rather like the 'animal activist' folks turning the mice loose.
mircea_popescu: they're loose already.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.53838261 BTC [+]
francis_wolke: asciilifeform: A while back you mentioned that the rulers of today are only good at misleading the public. I agree that the *visible* rulers are good at this - but can't imagine someone like Ben Bernanke caring so little about his future that the stupid are allowed to rule.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 179 @ 0.00293297 = 0.525 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: francis_wolke: the visible muppets aren't good at much of anything
mircea_popescu: so why does what you can and can't imagine matter ?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 20 @ 0.19376446 = 3.8753 BTC [+]
Duffer1: I'd say given the state of affairs worldwide the non-visible muppets aren't good at much either
mircea_popescu: Duffer1 you know you'll have to first define some criteria.
francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: Because my imagination has some bearing on reality - however tenuous.
mircea_popescu: francis_wolke can you show this to me ?
asciilifeform: Duffer1: this conclusion does not necessarily follow.
Duffer1: well what does it matter visible or nonvisible if the net result is crap all around for everyone?
mircea_popescu: again, crap by which stick ?
asciilifeform: re: imagination: gedankenexperiment time. let's imagine that i imagine there's a cleaner way to solve sha(Y)=X than brute force. i pursue this line of inquiry, and the imagined turns into the actual.
asciilifeform: in this scenario, imagination can indeed have an impact on reality...
Duffer1: worldwide asinine political regimes, religions, violence, ignorance
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform on your circumstance, yes. on the reality of the matter, none.
francis_wolke: MP: I have met some people in so-called 1%. I know what they're like, and what their parents are like. Many of them don't think - but some do. Some actually care that civilization will be around for their decedents to enjoy.
mircea_popescu: francis_wolke you know this hardly is showing, do you ?
Duffer1: my experience is obviously subject (as was my initial statement) but i don't see anyone trying to reverse these trends
francis_wolke: Though I have no experience with these matters, I can 'imagine' that they make certain sorts of donations etc.
francis_wolke: Or say that I didn't actually know any of these people.
asciilifeform: Duffer1: one can easily picture a set of aims that these things, which you aren't particularly fond of, help to advance.
asciilifeform: 'it's not a bug, it's a feature' (TM)
Duffer1: hehe
mircea_popescu: listen, while i agree with the reverse (ie, indeed reality iwll have some bearing, no matter how tenuous, on your imagination), the reverse is completely baseless.
Namworld: The requirements to be included in the 1% are low...
francis_wolke: Okay, cool.
asciilifeform: in what magic book is it written that '1%' (of what...) is a useful proxy for 'those who rule'
mircea_popescu: and this is so for very good reasons long explored in the history of thought.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform fun anecdote : romania's ruler for the 90s decade owner... a house.
asciilifeform: stalin. owned: a coat.
mircea_popescu: "sarac dar cinstit" = poor but honest, ion iliescu, the ex dictator-s golden boy.
mircea_popescu: indeed, same model.
asciilifeform: this goes back to the 'what is control' question from earlier, as well as MP's recent discussion of 'owning a cow'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally : we're having a little dispute there.
Duffer1: i missed that one
asciilifeform: if the only things you can 'own' are those that fit in your coffin, then: stalin owned only an overcoat. and a few coin in his pocket.
francis_wolke: asciilifeform: Control, with respect to bitcoin, would be whoever has their hand on the 'kill switch'. Assuming that the guy with a nuke is stable.
mircea_popescu: there is no nor can there ever be such a "kill switch".
mircea_popescu: *that* is a figment of your imagination, like the tits on the goddesses.
asciilifeform: there is a 'fuck things up quite a bit' switch, possibly. (as described in my old piece)
mircea_popescu: surely.
asciilifeform: whether this amounts to 'kill' is debatable.
mircea_popescu: i do that to women occasionally. they generally love it.
asciilifeform: and depends as much on herd psychology as anything else.
asciilifeform: it's rather like, say you were permitted to squeeze off one shot from a small arm at your enemy. does this amount to 'kill switch'? what if you miss? what if he's got a tough hide.
francis_wolke: Agreed.
francis_wolke: Control, with respect to society, is an emergent phenomenon. That being said, the Manhattan Project happened.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.077 = 0.231 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: francis_wolke << you know that's broken right ?
francis_wolke: In secret no less.
asciilifeform: i tend to agree with MP and others who conclude that we no longer live in a world where manhattan projects happen.
francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: It's not broken for me.
asciilifeform: the necessary human material is no longer readily available. just as the metals with which the SR-71 was built no longer are.
mircea_popescu: stubborn cat is he.
francis_wolke: asciilifeform: If you have a reading list to support this claim, I'd be happy to read it.
asciilifeform: it loads from here
asciilifeform: mebbe it's cached at ft. meade.
francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: Must have been cached. (Though you already knew that) my bad.
mircea_popescu: lol interesting
pankkake: resolves, but firefox does not like the name
mircea_popescu: im pretty sure -. is nonrfc
asciilifeform: francis_wolke: which claim ?
francis_wolke: There is nothing interesting there anyway. Just an 'about' with one sentence.
pankkake: nor does lynx
pankkake: but chrome does
mircea_popescu: see, this is why we need standards.
mircea_popescu: so we can all agree on things.
mircea_popescu: like for instance now, we can agree that wtf.
francis_wolke: asciilifeform: That we're living in a world without Manhattan projects.
francis_wolke: asciilifeform: Actually, I'd be interested in a reading list irrespective of that.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform now you're screwed, it looks like you'll have to write that article
francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: Same goes for you.
mircea_popescu: o no, i'm eight million words ahead in this game.
asciilifeform: francis_wolke: i doubt that i, personally, could prove this claim to your satisfaction.
asciilifeform: it is merely a strong conjecture.
asciilifeform: proving non-existence is generally non-trivial.
asciilifeform: except in the purely mathematical scenarios.
mircea_popescu: francis_wolke let's consider a simpler alternative. obama fdr and lincoln all broke the law, grossly. in all cases the courts duly signed off on this.
mircea_popescu: in the first case, the guy was able to cause civil war.
mircea_popescu: in the second case, the guy was able to cause massive resource redistribution
mircea_popescu: in the third case, the guy was able to not cause anything outside of measurement error.
asciilifeform: francis_wolke: you want a good read: "The Art of Not Being Governed." (James C. Scott)
asciilifeform: (book-length, high-quality treatise on the exact recipes whereby humans are corralled and milked)
mircea_popescu: the reason of course being ideological convergence, which happens because of the law of large numbers :
mircea_popescu: when you have simple ideologies, you have much easier coherence. thus activity with greatly leveraged effect.
mircea_popescu: as things progress the complexity of ideology grows and so grows the number of boxes in which we put balls. soon enough you have no box with over X balls.
francis_wolke: asciilifeform: Thanks.
asciilifeform: francis_wolke: as for the absence of 'modern manhattan project', let's attack that one head-on
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.124 BTC [+]
francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: I fail to see how this leads to a USG without Manhattan projects.
asciilifeform: for instance, you appear to consider seriously the possibility of 'radical life extension tech' being presently in covert use.
asciilifeform: do i understand correctly?
francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: No
mircea_popescu: maybe we don't mean the same thing by manhattan projects. what's your definition ?
francis_wolke: err. sorry
francis_wolke: asciilifeform:no
francis_wolke: A large scale, important project, developed in secret by USG.
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: the limits on the largeness of scale and importance are placed by said law of large numbers.
asciilifeform: francis_wolke: further reading. GRU report based on U.S. silver purchases in 1941-43.
mircea_popescu: when the options are a1, a2, you will out of a population of 100mn find 50 people able to keep secret X
asciilifeform: (manhattan project was no secret to GRU.)
mircea_popescu: when the options are a1, an you will not find out of a population of k, k <n, a single person capable of keeping secret X.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.12489 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: which is why the fsb does not have documents leaked, in spite of it sucking,
mircea_popescu: whereas the nsa is leaked yearly, in spite of supposedly being better.
francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: Okay?
mircea_popescu: russia is less "civilised" which means more convergent ideologically.
asciilifeform: it is very easy to draw mistaken conclusions from the fact that the 'man on the street' was entirely unaware of manhattan p. (or 'operation gladio', for a more recent example)
asciilifeform: but it does not follow that either was a 'perfect secret'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i thought we were strictly discussing secrets as "man in the street" affairs.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.125 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: keeping a secret from the man on the street is trivial. often, you could run his nose in it and it will stay 'secret.'
mircea_popescu: well not THAT man in the street. not the mobile vulgus, the beasts of the field, strictly interesting for their flesh, the cockroaches in your fabled ny apartment.
asciilifeform: betcha if you plucked the quasi-mythical Pill Against RSA from its Indiana Jones subterranean vault, perhaps six people alive would understand what they are looking at were it shown to them.
mircea_popescu: the actual man, ie, the middle class man.
mircea_popescu: a "reasonably intelligent observer"
asciilifeform: phun phact: many of the still-officially-secret docs from manhattan proj. are available in dead-tree print - in russian, naturally.
asciilifeform: any moron can waltz into a russian academic bookstore and buy all he can eat.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and legal to import into the us in your luggage, but then again illegal to export
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: speaking of which, are PGP tattoos still in fashion, i wonder.
asciilifeform: 'i am a controlled munition.'
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: they never got far, i imagine cause they're so hard to make and unwieldy to weart
asciilifeform: if i recall it was the perl version
asciilifeform: <100 chars. or so.
mircea_popescu: your average tattoo "artist" doesn't do so well with letters.
asciilifeform: haha that'd be hilarious in the pgp case
asciilifeform: idiot hipster asks for pgp tattoo, gets rot-13.
mircea_popescu: lol
francis_wolke: asciilifeform: To clarify, I'd imagine that anyone with enough money / power would be interested in the possiblity of radical life extension (Peter Theil, MP, Satoshi) if / when the tech is there. As such, if I were smart enough to create btc, I'd certainly team up with the most powerful country, so that if the tech does get 'there', I'll be ready.
mircea_popescu: why do you think so ? i wouldn't personally be interested in such.
asciilifeform: francis_wolke: phun phact. my first paying job was 'activate somatic telomerase.' project croaked from utter lack of the necessary depth of understanding.
francis_wolke: Phun phact indeed.
asciilifeform: (and, not simply mine)
mircea_popescu: i mean marginally, like i'm interested in whatever new chick takes her top off, but otherwise...
francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: You wouldn't opt for another 400 years?
mircea_popescu: that aside, i do believe we'll probably be the first immortal generation,
mircea_popescu: and probably rue the day.
mircea_popescu: francis_wolke doing what ?
pankkake: doing girls 300 years younger
mircea_popescu: srsly now.
francis_wolke: ha.
mircea_popescu: i first retired aged 24. i came back because i got bored out of my mind.
mircea_popescu: i got lucky, cause btc came around, but how many cycles do you think i can take ?
francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: I don't know you well enough to say.
mircea_popescu: well nobody does, but still.
asciilifeform: immortality is a tricky beast - biology aside! the life expectancy of a daily wash. d.c. beltway driver is maybe 200 years.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how'd you figure that ?!
asciilifeform: accident stats. a debatable figure, could be off by as much as 10x.
mircea_popescu: lmao ok
asciilifeform: (naturally, gedankenexperiment assumes an eternal and unchanging beltway, etc.)
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: beltway, bellyway, errything.
ozbot: dishes
asciilifeform: could just as well calculate the life of a somali pirate, or oil driller.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what's the lifespan of a redditard ?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.1275 BTC [+]
benkay: mircea_popescu: on the subject of the feed you've been yammering at me about
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: depends! is he in an oubliette where he belongs?
asciilifeform: in Butugichag?
mircea_popescu: benkay tiikoni and tis. you tease you. what happened to cunny and tits ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in his mom's basementichag
francis_wolke: Still not sure why you both think we live in a world devoid of Manhattan projects btw.
asciilifeform: (lifespan of a strong man in B. was reportedly six months.)
mircea_popescu: francis_wolke but you never engaged my argument at all.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform amusingly, the romans used the salt mines (in transylvania) to much the same effect.
francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: You simply don't have to tell all that many people when you're creating a new currency - and even if you do, who is going to listen?
mircea_popescu: "go fight in the arena for glory or rot in turda salt mine boi"
asciilifeform: 'glorious secret undertakings like Manhattan p. carry on' is quite similar of a hypothesis to 'god exists'
mircea_popescu: francis_wolke but a new currency isn't a manhattan project.
francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: Ah - but that's what I'm getting at - I think it was.
mircea_popescu: creating a new currency is like fucking an altar boy. nobody needs to know anything.
benkay: francis_wolke: have you read the source?
asciilifeform: francis_wolke: you believe that it was? or believe that it must have been.
mircea_popescu: a manhattan project is like escavating a tunnel under the nunnery.
asciilifeform: which is it
mircea_popescu: plenty of people need to know
francis_wolke: benkay: I have not.
benkay: sophisticated engineering project it ain't
mircea_popescu: ^
asciilifeform: i'm perfectly willing to listen to evidence that 'was'. but 'must have been' is absurd.
benkay: not broken, for sure
benkay: crypto minds deployed against it, for sure
benkay: rigorous engineering?
benkay: notrly.
mircea_popescu: if every great painting in history is a manhattan project then venice and the low countries own the us in manhattanness, srsly.
mircea_popescu: who knew.
benkay: venice et al pwn the us anyways
francis_wolke: asciilifeform: I don't believe anything. I'm asking here because you all know more than I.
mircea_popescu: benkay diff discussion :)
pankkake: bitcoin, the first released version, was certainly written by one lone guy
mircea_popescu: <francis_wolke> A large scale, important project, developed in secret by USG. << how does bitcoin meet any of your criteria ?
asciilifeform: francis_wolke: suggested exercise: invent something fundamental.
mircea_popescu: it's neither large scale nor important in that context.
asciilifeform: then you will know what it feels like to be a perfect 'conspiracy' of one man.
mircea_popescu: pankkake with a tenuous grasp of c practice.
asciilifeform: you'll have thoughts like 'wtf. how is it that only one man can know something'
dexX7: mircea_popesu: yea, i guess it's not very accurate, but interesting to see an estimate
francis_wolke: asciilifeform: Fair enough.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.53838261 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i loved dame dench. "Be careful with my name, or you may wear it out!"
francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: See my gist. However, I think that it's clear I need to read the Bitcoin sources and more history. The 'reasoning' in said gist may not correspond to reality.
mircea_popescu: in a world where every "idea" is in fact chewed and spit and chewed so many times by so many generations by now all that's left is the spit itself, in which vaguely one can recognise the marks left by the spit of whoever long ago, in the manner new spits mix today because of the presence of that old saliva of yore,
mircea_popescu: the notion of fresh produce is indeed imponderable.
mircea_popescu: francis_wolke actual link ?
francis_wolke: mircea_popescu:
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 185 @ 0.002941 = 0.5441 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: fucking teleomeres.
mjr_: whats up all
mircea_popescu: half the time when i select something a final char is omitted
benkay: yo mjr_ what's up
mircea_popescu: " Anyone intelligent enough to create Bitcoin will have aligned themselves with some sort of governmental body." << this is a weak assumption.
mjr_: very weak mircea_popescu
benkay: mircea_popescu: i pointed this out already.
mjr_: benkay: whats up
mircea_popescu: ello mjr_
mjr_: i just got the coolest new domain
mjr_: i'm quite proud of it
mircea_popescu: benkay so that makes 2 :)
benkay: hackin migration scripts, watching the babe do dishes in heels
mjr_:, and
mircea_popescu: "A group of people associated with multiple world powers." << no. actual internationalisation happened in 2013, was announced on trilema.
benkay: well, sweeping now but general domesticity. what's the domain?
mjr_: restarting a brand new LTCM
benkay: litecoin management lol mjr_
mjr_: no no
mjr_: long term crypto
benkay: that's what i read
benkay: nope
benkay: you're in the litecoin biz nao
mircea_popescu: mjr_ they're not that great.
mjr_: hahaha
mjr_: its mostly a joke mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: o o
benkay: i think the ltcmgmt is great!
mjr_: anyone who knows LTCM will find it prety funny
mircea_popescu: "and Israel" << wtf ?! how do you reason francis_wolke ?
mircea_popescu: "and the remaining states are all allies of the US" < ahaha what!
mjr_: but i plan on using it as a private consulting company for
mjr_: did you guys see that guy from btc shop?
mircea_popescu: i guess required reading
benkay: if you'd read the gist it woulda saved so much time mircea_popescu
benkay: you could've jumped straight to the mockery!
mjr_: went public on the pink i was recommending bitcoin companies do a year ago
mjr_: ^^
mircea_popescu: "it's disposal" that's not how you spell the possesive.
mircea_popescu: "neigh-impossible" << what is this, cockney ?!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform who's this guy ?
mjr_: hahaha
mjr_: i've missed chatting with you guys
mircea_popescu: "Even if the initial miners in the "Satoshi Gang" were not initially part of the USG - they would be hunted down and forced to turn over their Bitcoin at gunpoint." oh for the love of christ.
mjr_: do you have the link handy for the romania trip?
mircea_popescu: mjr_ the conference you mea n?
mjr_: yes
benkay: mjr_: pm
mjr_: i am starting to try and make plans
ozbot: The conference, second edition pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
mjr_: thanks so much
mircea_popescu: francis_wolke your git is nonsense.
mircea_popescu: and somewhat related :
mircea_popescu: Dolchstoßlegende is the notion, widely believed in right-wing circles in Germany after 1918, that the German Army did not lose World War I but was instead betrayed by the civilians on the home front, especially the republicans who overthrew the monarchy. Advocates denounced the German government leaders who signed the Armistice on November 11, 1918, as the "November Criminals" (German: Novemberverbrecher).
francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: I read the logs. My wifi died.
mircea_popescu: now, can we transpose the manhattan argument in terms of novemberverbrecher argument ?
mircea_popescu: ie, could we say the same things we say of our current fashion (ie, large scale tech project) about yesteryear's fashion ?
mircea_popescu: (ie, large scale political project)
francis_wolke: I'm not following.
mircea_popescu: the only difference being that in the 2000s humanity is fed by technology, whereas in 1900 it was fed by politics, which meant, of course, deploying the force of arms to acquire wealth.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: who's this guy << no idea. seems to read my site at least occasionally.
mircea_popescu: francis_wolke you'll ahve to put that in the form of a question.
francis_wolke: mircea_popescu: One sec, reading your blogpost.
mircea_popescu: no rush really, #bitcoin-assets is eternal
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform keeps giving us these immortality pills, we'll be here forever.
ThickAsThieves: someone likes the BitBet layout:
mircea_popescu: ahahaha fair lay!
mircea_popescu: speaking of lays : benkay take the girls pic, post it, have her come by i'll give her a bitcoin so she can build her independent wealth.
mircea_popescu: (in heels, doing housework, obviously)
benkay: that was her!
benkay: she's already on payroll over here.
benkay: although if you foot the bill for travel to romania you can have a go at talking her into your dungeon.
pankkake: how can this be approved :/
ozbot: Bet on: Ethereum talk > 10.000 views on YouTube
pankkake: fake views are so cheap
mircea_popescu: benkay i normally talk girls out of it not into it.
mircea_popescu: and what "that" ?
mircea_popescu: pankkake it's a fair lay lmao
benkay: the tikooni
mjr_: mircea_popescu:
mjr_: it is prevailing market rates of 1760?
mircea_popescu: o srsly ? /me actually clicks the link then
mjr_: has that been edited? i seem to remember 10 bitcoin price, not sure if i am remembering wrong
benkay: psh
mircea_popescu: mjr_ sorry ?
mircea_popescu: benkay you know i have the exact bowl ?
mircea_popescu: fucking chinese.
benkay: mircea_popescu: that's a strainer.
mircea_popescu: i see no holes ?!
mjr_: mircea_popescu: i thought the fee was 10 bitcoins for VIP, not that I am complaining, I just haven't looked in a while
mjr_: and i was under that impression
mircea_popescu: nah it always was X at time of payment,
benkay: it's a low-rez jpeg and they're small!
mjr_: ah cool
mircea_popescu: happened to be 10 btc at that time
mircea_popescu: wow. ok nm then!
mjr_: i am planning on going, and will get the payment in b4 the ides of march
mjr_: have to check my schedule real quick but it should be fine
mircea_popescu: i was going to go "oh, the blessings of romanian living, i just drained a bottle of tuica out of my barrel in the cellar now i have nicely cold tuica", but i guess i should pass.
benkay: not moving to argentina, i gather.
mircea_popescu: who knows these things.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let me ask you this : are you gathering lots of information about the early days of bitcoin by extensively watching the altcoin chain, tracking txns etc ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on and off.
mircea_popescu: gedankenexperiment : you are the usg.
asciilifeform: not terribly actively in recent times, got, well, other things on me plate.
mircea_popescu: exactly.
mircea_popescu: could you have been a one man conspiracy to take it all over ? certainly. did you ? no. why not ? well...because of soft constraints.
mircea_popescu: this is what they are, this is how they work.
asciilifeform: everyone likes to imagine that there lives a hero.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25888 @ 0.00087307 = 22.602 BTC [+] {5}
mircea_popescu: sure. and i see no problem with that, as you know, conversation.
mircea_popescu: reality however...
mircea_popescu: you gotta actually do it for it to be done. coulding have done it ain't military grade.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21612 @ 0.00087425 = 18.8943 BTC [+] {4}
mircea_popescu: epic shit this, i've already derived more value from it than doge ever was worth.
mircea_popescu: benkay anyway, nice girl, happy times!
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.12999999 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 111 @ 0.002941 = 0.3265 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.1275 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.07366666 = 0.221 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 3 @ 0.124 = 0.372 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.19376446 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 3 @ 0.19376446 = 0.5813 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 4 @ 0.06899999 = 0.276 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 36 @ 0.00294498 = 0.106 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.124 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.19376446 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8228 @ 0.0008746 = 7.1962 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.124 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.19376446 BTC [+]
benkay: mmm yes.
benkay: happy times.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4677 @ 0.00087501 = 4.0924 BTC [+]
deanclkclk: anyone around?
deanclkclk: are there any alternatives to okpay which accepts fiat on behalf of exchanges?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8064 @ 0.00087015 = 7.0169 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: deanclkclk not really.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2886 @ 0.00086943 = 2.5092 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: exchanges currently seem to have a lot of problems, but if you trust any one you are best served by asking them what they can process
deanclkclk: thing is..I'm creating an exchange i'm kinda limited to okpay to do this
Duffer1: ;;gpg info deanclkclk
gribble: No such user registered.
mircea_popescu: deanclkclk perhaps you've not thought this though that much.
deanclkclk: what do you mean?
deanclkclk: especially when you get an also get a bank account
deanclkclk: well someone else on my team is looking into it but, it something that's been nagging my conscious
deanclkclk: conscience *
Duffer1: btc/usd exchange?
deanclkclk: yes Duffer1
deanclkclk: and btc/eur
deanclkclk: ltc also alsong with btc/ltc
mircea_popescu: deanclkclk i guess as mpoe-pr would say, see here :
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12936 @ 0.00086847 = 11.2345 BTC [-] {3}
deanclkclk: thx for that mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: people with millions of dollars in backing failed at what you propose.
deanclkclk: but, what's WOT by the way?
mircea_popescu: it's not something to be started to fill an idle hour in the afternoon, like wittling.
deanclkclk: I know mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: this thing
Duffer1: Web Of Trust
deanclkclk: I have a value added propition mircea_popescu nad what I'm bring is like high frequency trading
deanclkclk: buyer wants more ..seller wants less...the trading will be automated where we try to get the best price for both buyer and seller
deanclkclk: understand?
deanclkclk: and in some cases..they can get more dollars in the case of the trader and more btc in the case of the buyer
benkay: nope. do not understand. i must be idiots.
mircea_popescu: do you by any chance misrepresent "hft" to mean "a simulacra of amazon's autobid function" ?
Duffer1: you propose to allow buy/sell a price different than quoted?
deanclkclk: the buyer puts his max bid and the seller puts there minium ask price
deanclkclk: the algorithm goes through the list and find the best price for both buyer and seller Duffer1
benkay: YOU GUYS
Duffer1: how is that different than a regular order book
deanclkclk: so the seller might get more fiat and the buyer might get more btc
mircea_popescu: it presumably doesn't display actual values.
deanclkclk: it does
deanclkclk: it will show what actually traded
Duffer1: dark pool, but not dark
mircea_popescu: deanclkclk you may not like to hear this, but nevertheless it's a fact : you're really not able to do this. for your own sake do it for something light, like a play crypto.
mircea_popescu: do doge/alt/ltc/we.
deanclkclk: why?
mircea_popescu: because you're too stupid.
deanclkclk: why do you suggest that?
deanclkclk: why am I stupid?
mircea_popescu: well there are many fundamental points you're unable to consider.
deanclkclk: like what?
Duffer1: when you lose everyone's money for them it will hurt more than when you lose everyone's memecoin
deanclkclk: what's the main one?
mircea_popescu: i would imagine it's a combination of youth and whatever else.
deanclkclk: how am I loosing people's money when I said ..the objective is for folks to get more
benkay: well it's a zero sum game, homie
deanclkclk: a trade...we find the lease expensive ask and the highest bid and trade
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06899999 = 0.345 BTC [+]
deanclkclk: are u that fucking stupid?
benkay: so this is not an open problem
Duffer1: you clearly don't understand enough of what's involved to be put yourself in a position of responsibility for other's money
Duffer1: other's fortunes
deanclkclk: as oppose just stating random things..state in what instance I'm a "too fucking stupid"
deanclkclk: what area?
Duffer1: ok what's your area of expertise?
benkay: deanclkclk: matching the lowest ask and highest bid is the baseline for an exchange.
mircea_popescu: deanclkclk don't take it personally. i have no particular interest in the matter.
deanclkclk: I made 2 or 3 statements and all of a sudden...I'm too fucking stupid
benkay: it is completely unspecial.
mircea_popescu: well yes. we can see what statements you make and compare.
deanclkclk: benkay: have u traded on BTC-e?
benkay: deanclkclk: why does this matter?
deanclkclk: basically I just get the quantity I ask for
deanclkclk: well I bid
deanclkclk: I don't get more
mircea_popescu: ><
mircea_popescu: why would you want to get more ?
benkay: deanclkclk: you're unfortunately trading on exchanges run by derpy web developers that don't match orders like professionals, and so you come to the conclusion that order matching is a) a hard problem and b) something you're qualified to handle.
Duffer1: how could you get more?
deanclkclk: why wouldn't anyone want to get more BTC if the purpose of the site is to find the least ask trade
pankkake: as far as I know btc-e does things properly
benkay: furthermore, the problem you're trying to solve is not actually a problem. it's a flaw in your perceptions of trading.
mircea_popescu: deanclkclk because people generally want to get what they want to get.
deanclkclk: lol
deanclkclk: ok
Duffer1: noooo not ok
deanclkclk: u people must be programmers
mircea_popescu: actually, no.
Duffer1: now you're going to walk off and do it anyways, stay and talk
mircea_popescu: the only programmer here is benkay and we only keep him around cause his gf.
benkay: oi
mircea_popescu: lol
deanclkclk: people want to get what they ask for? that doesn't make any business sense
deanclkclk: people generally likes to leverage
mircea_popescu: so when i order a wire of X dollars,
deanclkclk: so I don't know what planet u people are from
mircea_popescu: the recipient should get X+k dollars ?
deanclkclk: yes
deanclkclk: that ask
mircea_popescu: well, i suppose it must be a different planet.
deanclkclk: the bid...might get more say BTC
Duffer1: dat variety speak
Duffer1: much learning for you young padawan
pankkake: but if you want more, just ask for more. your ask might not get fully filled, so? that was the price you wanted
deanclkclk: it's not guaranteed but, hte bare minimum they get what the actually bid and ask were
mircea_popescu: maybe there could be a coin dedicated to this concept.
mircea_popescu: each transfer yields more coins i nthe recipient address than were sent
mircea_popescu: this defo beats bernankoin
pankkake: I mean bid, lol
deanclkclk: you know how market works...prices change on the fly
mircea_popescu: pankkake he just outsmarted your BNK!
deanclkclk: and trades can happen ever second
pankkake: *BEK
mircea_popescu: o my bad
deanclkclk: so if I put this bid and the price sinks...I'm would be a happy camper
Duffer1: a futures exchange?
pankkake: you'd have to know the future indeed
mircea_popescu: deanclkclk so you want to specify orders by the other part of the pair, basically ?
mircea_popescu: sells specified in dollars, buys in bitcoin for the btc/usd pair ?
deanclkclk: mircea_popescu: again..attention
deanclkclk: by the bare minimum...the traders would get what they ask for....X dollars for the seller and X BTC for the buyer
deanclkclk: but, there could be a case where Seller and Buyer gets more depending on the trade
deanclkclk: the purpose is to find the highest bid and the lowest ask
pankkake: you should write a proof of concept (without any actual monies involved)
deanclkclk: I'm already doing that
mircea_popescu: hence my advice to use play coins.
pankkake: well then perhaps I'll understand your proposal
deanclkclk: so for instance...I put 100 for 1 BTC and I find a ask for 95
mircea_popescu: if your idea blows up you won't be hung out to dry.
benkay: no, you will.
deanclkclk: I save $5 dollars and I can use that 5 dollars to get an additional satososhi
mircea_popescu: ok, but not with a spiked stake in your anus
deanclkclk: it's small but it's incremental :)
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 9 @ 0.07000003 = 0.63 BTC [-] {4}
mircea_popescu: o look, btctalk is down
pankkake: it's not. they banned you?
deanclkclk: now tell I stupid?
Namworld: How do you find such lower ask/higher bid so buyer/seller gets more? All bids/asks are all already there when someone place an order.
deanclkclk: I'm already using testnet folks
pankkake: if I put 100 for 1 BTC and there is an ask at 95, I'm already getting that bitcoin at 95
ozbot: Teen kills self after streaking backlash | New York Post
mircea_popescu: key words " alabama law"
pankkake: almost everywhere
Jere_Jones: You plan on doing this *on* the blockchain?
deanclkclk: all exchanges? pankkake ?
Namworld: Yes
deanclkclk: so what happens with the $5 dollars
mircea_popescu: pankkake nm back up
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 5 @ 0.13199988 = 0.66 BTC [+] {3}
Namworld: You don't spend that $5 because there is a ask lower than 100 per BTC at 95.
pankkake: you end up with $5 and 1 BTC
Namworld: That's what happen. You get 5 dollar + a BTC
deanclkclk: so why not find another satoshi for the 5 bucks?
Duffer1: or if you do a market buy, the 5$ buys from the next order inline
deanclkclk: well that's not my experience with other exchanges folks...sorry
deanclkclk: maybe I was missing something
Namworld: You CAN select to buy 100 dollar of BTC. The exchange already finds the lowest asks and gets as much BTC as possible.
Namworld: You can select amount to buy/sell in dollar or in BTC already.
Namworld: You already get the best ask/bid.
Jere_Jones: market order vs limit order
Namworld: That's how all exchanges already work.
ThickAsThieves: time to ditch OpenEx:
ThickAsThieves: courtesy of Apocalyptic
pankkake: basically
ozbot: Order (exchange) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
pankkake: omgizz! thanks Apocalyptic
mircea_popescu: curious if BingoBoingo will support it
Apocalyptic: hope you guys like this order matching better heh
pankkake: the current slowness of ATC blocks will make arbitrage annoying
BingoBoingo: Sure, will take a few hours to move out. That's usually the lag on withdrawals.
Apocalyptic: I heard a diff retarget is in 33 blocks
mircea_popescu: funny thing is, the r3wt guy will never know what exactly he missed by not being part of things.
pankkake: try 1000 more blocks
ThickAsThieves: really?
ThickAsThieves: fuuu
mircea_popescu: pankkake how long are blocks atm, 10 mns ?
ThickAsThieves: like 50m
pankkake: yeah I think it's 2016 blocks, of 512 sec blocks
deanclkclk: can you cancel a trade that's partially filled on these exchanges?
Namworld: Yes
Duffer1: every exchange i've used ya
deanclkclk: which ones?
pankkake: all of them
deanclkclk: lie
Namworld: MtGox, Bitstamp, BTC-E, you name it.
ThickAsThieves: dean we dont need more exchanges
Namworld: I don't know of one that doesn't.
Duffer1: campbx/gox/btce/mcxnow
pankkake: look, if you don't allow cancelling, you're going to end up with nonsense very quickly
Duffer1: note that half of those are dead, and the others are questionably/likely scams
deanclkclk: I've used btc-e and no way in hell I could cancel a trade that was partially filled
Apocalyptic: deanclkclk, i could
Duffer1: it's highlighted in yellow in the order book and all open positions are visible below the order book, scroll down
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves at the rate we're going we soon might. you know the joke with the cadet and his horse?
Duffer1: yellow or grey i forget, it's been a while, when you mouse over it you can cancel
deanclkclk: so must of u guys are traders?
BingoBoingo: deanclkclk: Not at all
Duffer1: hell no lol
mircea_popescu: we are the secret iluminati club of bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: nice to meet you.
deanclkclk: so if you are not traders or programmers...what the fuck is that profession?
pankkake: I'm an eternal curious finance noob
Duffer1: I'm a clinger that lost it all and hangs around for I don't know why
Namworld: Some in here are traders I suppose. Other are business owners.
Namworld: Others are just watching for info/news.
Duffer1: the Haters Club, now with Bitcoin
ThickAsThieves: i'm a serial journeyman
mircea_popescu: you're all jews.
pankkake: if only being a hater was a job
Duffer1: seriously
Duffer1: well mpoe-pr, so jealous :(
mircea_popescu: i think most people go into the press trying to make a job out of it.
mircea_popescu: ahahaha right-o!
deanclkclk: so for traders here..what do you guys would want out of an exchange that your currently not getting?
Duffer1: theft insurance
deadweasel: liquidity
Namworld: Which I don't think is feasible to begin with.
deanclkclk: anything is possible
Namworld: (insurance)
Namworld: Anything?
deanclkclk: meaning if you loose 100% of your BTC..u get back say full or partial?
benkay: i want bad trade insurance
benkay: like
benkay: i bought atc at 150
benkay: it's now 100
benkay: i want that 50 sat back plz
mircea_popescu: actual credibility.
mircea_popescu: would be nice but it's too onerous to hope for.
Duffer1: nono if (when) the exchange is compromised and the hot/cold wallets stolen it's insured
deanclkclk: lol
mircea_popescu: how come every day there's some doofus who does nothing but parts and joins ;/
mircea_popescu: deanclkclk so make a perpetuum mobile then, why you wasting your time with this crap.
deanclkclk: the only ones credible I know are the ones registered with finrar
deanclkclk: but, most traders don't want to be tracked
Namworld: There's already BTC-e to not be tracked. They don't require any verification as far as I know.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28818 @ 0.0008757 = 25.2359 BTC [+] {4}
Namworld: The registered ones are not typically insured.
deanclkclk: yes i know but, coinmkt requires social security
Duffer1: i don't know of any one that is insured
deanclkclk: how must of you guys get your money to exchanges? bank transfer?
Namworld: Yes. Bank transfer.
deanclkclk: that's the preferred way I guess
deanclkclk: and the fees doesn't matter to you guys right?
pankkake: there are fees for bank transfers?
mircea_popescu: ...
Namworld: I don't know of any fiat transfer mechanism without fees.
deanclkclk: no...apologies. I was talking about trading fees
mircea_popescu: or i could bitch.
Namworld: What about them? What do you want to do?
davout: pankkake: oui?
deanclkclk: offering less trading fees
ThickAsThieves: i dont quite understand the OpenEx withdrawal process, but we'll see...
Namworld: Well that wouldn't get me at all.
ThickAsThieves: it doesnt even ask for a wallet
Namworld: I don't care about lower fees.
pankkake: davout: about insured deposits on exchanges
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves maybe it's psychic ?
deanclkclk: what would get you then?
pankkake: or it's a "donate all to exchange owner" feature
benkay: sorry.
deanclkclk: Again, I just started out in trading about 4 months ago but, I'm a programmer
benkay: sorry for capslock :(
mircea_popescu: deanclkclk dude srsly, nobody is using the thing of an unknown. you were here in channel when this happened, openx just lost all its business because Apocalyptic.
Namworld: You've just proposed x then y then z upon seeing the first things were already there so wouldn't work. If you couldn't figure it out, you're not fit to handle customer Bitcoins. Because when first thing will work, there won't be other things to try.
deanclkclk: huh?
Namworld: Bitcoins will be gone.
pankkake: well Apocalyptic doesn't know how to configure a mail server so I'm still waiting for the activation mail
Namworld: I'm basically not going to touch anything you'd do.
deanclkclk: those were all my value proposition ..I couldn't just come and spill everything
deanclkclk: I asked one at a time to get a feel of what people want
mircea_popescu: and Namworld comes to the same conclusion everyone else did, but after putting more effort and time into it.
ThickAsThieves: pankkake mine went to spam
Namworld: I just wanted to go through all the details of why no one here is interested.
deanclkclk: who is
pankkake: my server greylists things that do not have SPF or proper SPF
deanclkclk: who is Apocalyptic?
Duffer1: people want trust (web of trust), people want competence (any experience in finance or handling other's significant amounts of money?)
benkay: who are you?
Namworld: I like explaining why.
mircea_popescu: Namworld yeah, i didn't mean it negatively.
ThickAsThieves: ;;gettrust Apocalyptic
gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask Apocalyptic!~Apocalypt@unaffiliated/apocalyptic. Trust relationship from user ThickAsThieves to user Apocalyptic: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 2 via 2 connections. Graph: | WoT data: | Rated since: Mon Jul 15 09:32:50 2013
deanclkclk: finance is good but, also tech expertise
benkay: ;;gettrust deanclkclk
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user benkay to user deanclkclk: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: | WoT data: | Rated since: never
benkay: if you want to btc
deanclkclk: most of the problem with exchanges are tech experience
benkay: first you must wot
mircea_popescu: deanclkclk get over that. techs are monkeys. nobody cares.
pankkake: Apocalyptic: 1) add a SPF record to 2) if possible set your reverse dns in something - that will reduce your amount of spaminess greatly
deanclkclk: ok
benkay: deanclkclk: incorrect.
benkay: deanclkclk: tech is a trivial thing.
Namworld: I know you didn't mircea, just a random fact I wanted to add to it.
deanclkclk: benkay: run that command again
Namworld: With that, I'm gone. Got to meet with the family.
mircea_popescu: have fun
deanclkclk: ;;gettrust deanclkclk
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user deanclkclk to user deanclkclk: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: | WoT data: | Rated since: never
deanclkclk: so I need to signup to WOT. I haven't done so
benkay: you also need to read the thing you were linked way back up miles above
deanclkclk: yes
ThickAsThieves: great snapshot
benkay: "so you want to start a bitcoin business"
mircea_popescu: i tohught he read that
deanclkclk: again who is apocalyptic?
mircea_popescu: but it didn't apply to him, because that was for all the OTHER kids.
Duffer1: MP you should have PR add 'dat variety speak' article to her start a business thread
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves ahaha seriously ?!
pankkake: I don't know who Apocalyptic is but people I trust seem to trust him
pankkake: ;;gettrust Apocalyptic
gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask Apocalyptic!~Apocalypt@unaffiliated/apocalyptic. Trust relationship from user pankkake to user Apocalyptic: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 2 via 2 connections. Graph: | WoT data: | Rated since: Mon Jul 15 09:32:50 2013
mircea_popescu: the news at 5, a string of mistakes that eventually annul each other if long enough.
Apocalyptic: pankkake, good point @SPF record
benkay: Duffer1: people who need to read Variety Speak won't get it.
deanclkclk: means that mircea_popescu recommended apocalyptic?
mircea_popescu: what im the only 1 ?
benkay: Duffer1: just like people who need to read "so you want to start a bitcoin business" can't get over their egos and get it.
ThickAsThieves: dean
deanclkclk: so let me get this straight. He created openex and people are loosing money?
ThickAsThieves: lear about the WoT
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 7 @ 0.13199989 = 0.924 BTC [+]
ThickAsThieves: then youll understand why it matters at all
deanclkclk: I hear you ThickAsThieves
ThickAsThieves: and how the hell we can trust anyone across the webz
benkay: Duffer1: just like people who'd benefit from BingoBoingo's advice on how not to fail in bitcoin are too wrapped up in their silicon valley bullshit to listen to him.
assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. (
BingoBoingo: !b 1
deanclkclk: ok so once I sign does one become trusted?
Duffer1: hehe
deadweasel: 'ycombinated minds' as mircea_popescu aptly put it
mircea_popescu: deanclkclk well it first and foremost takes time
ThickAsThieves: you do trustworthy things
benkay: deanclkclk: do something useful, don't screw people over.
mircea_popescu: which is why you want to do that early and then lurk here
mircea_popescu: you'll figure it out soon enough
Duffer1: you're not wrong benkay, call me a hopeless optimist though, some may learn before they lose it all instead of after
BingoBoingo: deanclkclk: You do trustful things first, eventually you get to do trustworthy things
benkay: losing it all is a part of the learning process
deanclkclk: well..I started the project from December but, I've been mostly on #bitcoin, #bitcoin-dev and #litcoin
mircea_popescu: Duffer1 benkay it was illustrated recently by herbi. the only restraint is that people's ability to be all imperial and handwave reality be overrun
benkay: whether 'all' is 9 bucks like in herbi's case, or everything everything in yours...
pankkake: what about learning by losing it half?
mircea_popescu: they don't actually have to lose anytihng per se, other than their own vanity
mircea_popescu: (or, as a progre would put it, "self-respect")
deanclkclk: I know I guy here called twitz from here..I can't remember his irc name
benkay: pankkake i gotcha buddy
Duffer1: twizt
pankkake: I learned to do backups by losing only 1/3. but I still miss it :(
ThickAsThieves: some sleepytime audio:
benkay: one can always earn more bitcoins.
benkay: one can never fix a reputation for incompetence.
ThickAsThieves: ozbot where are you?
benkay: much less a reputation for outright scammery.
pankkake: (backups in the general sense, not losing bitcoins due to lack of backups)
Duffer1: benkayone can always earn more bitcoins. >>> i wish
benkay: Duffer1: only thing holding you back is you, cousine.
ThickAsThieves: yep, ive seen like 3 jobs posted in here this week
BingoBoingo: ;;tslb
gribble: Time since last block: 13 minutes and 49 seconds
benkay: ThickAsThieves: what jobs?
ThickAsThieves: ATC Manager to the Stars
ThickAsThieves: ATC Trader to the Stars
ThickAsThieves: hehe
benkay: well that second one was actually a noob trap
ThickAsThieves: also i'll pay bounties for needed ATC services
BingoBoingo: benkay: Actually I'm handling that second on nao.
BingoBoingo: I am the n00btrap.
benkay: o yea
benkay: for teh lolz
ThickAsThieves: random thought, there;s no way in hell that wall st guy put 8 nails in himself
ThickAsThieves: he was killed
BingoBoingo: ThickAsThieves: Why not. people survive more nails than that.
ThickAsThieves: it's like 5 dead now?
benkay: five who and what?
ThickAsThieves: it makes no sense
Duffer1: oh shi there's more?
BingoBoingo: Anyways. I thought he was Colorado Title company guy. Not Wallstreet.
mircea_popescu: <benkay> << one could, perhaps, but defo not by persevering in the manner that got them the original reputation in the first place.
ThickAsThieves: if youre gonna kill yourself and you are intelligent, wtf would you nailgub yourself, and when did go for it, how the hell do you make it to 7 or 8 in the body and head?
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves you know this was discussed :D
ThickAsThieves: nailgun*
ThickAsThieves: oh you think he was killed too?
BingoBoingo: ThickAsThieves: Well, the nails themselves slow bleeding. And there was no evidence he was intelligent at all.
mircea_popescu: well it's a well known joke this, "suicide, 3 shots to the head"
Duffer1: depends on nail placement really
pankkake: probably lacked the street smarts
Duffer1: and basic knowledge of anatomy
mircea_popescu: <benkay> well that second one was actually a noob trap <<< all jobs are de facto noob traps
benkay: huh that's an interesting take
benkay: how so?
mircea_popescu: doh.
mircea_popescu: the thing that qualifies a good lay is exactly the thing that disqualifies a rotten one
benkay: oh enlighten my derpy ass
mircea_popescu: there's not this convenient cleavage of school from life irl.
Jere_Jones: Catching up on the last hour of conversation is depressing.
mircea_popescu: Jere_Jones
mircea_popescu: oops
mircea_popescu: Jere_Jones_wife : please hide any nailguns ty.
Jere_Jones: Before that. lol
davout: pankkake: what about the insured deposits ?
davout: pankkake: which deposits ? :-)
mircea_popescu: davout yes yes, we know, you have it.
davout: mircea_popescu: no i actually don't
mircea_popescu: for eur ? i thought it was eu banking w/e
mircea_popescu: "we promise you can get your money back unless germany needs it to bail out russian oligarchs in fucktardistan
mircea_popescu: "
davout: it seemed obvious to me when i first talked about it,
davout: which was a mistake, i double checked with the "fonds de garantie des dépôts" and they only cover accounts called "comptes de dépôt", and not "comptes de paiement"
mircea_popescu: o you sneak.
mircea_popescu: what are you, french ?
davout: anyway, the main point is that the money is on accounts in the name of the holders, in a financial insitution, not on our corporate accounts, and therefore legally not ours
mircea_popescu: nevertheless do go back and add addendums wherever feasible
mircea_popescu: otherwise that's grossly misrepresentative.
pankkake: the original question was "insurance from theft" though
pankkake: so that answers it
mircea_popescu: yeah but novel stuff thus unearthed
davout: pankkake: oic the question was about btc deposits
pankkake: I'm not sure
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28200 @ 0.00087607 = 24.7052 BTC [+] {5}
BingoBoingo: Apocalyptic: You orderbook looks weird
mircea_popescu: here on -assets we specialise in animated conversations with multiple participants all of which have no certain idea wtf the topic is, what's being said, what it means and so on.
mircea_popescu: works well enough so far.
davout: haha
mircea_popescu: the english language being employed is more an artefact of the observer than a reality of the conversation.
davout: i doubt any exchange found an insurance company to cover the btc deposits
Duffer1: have any tried?
benkay: heh i'd be surprised
davout: if any did try ?
mircea_popescu: davout sure they had.
davout: we did
mircea_popescu: CPA.
benkay: nah if any'd obtained the necessary ins
Duffer1: davout who'd you approach?
mircea_popescu: ;;google usagi CPA
gribble: Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading ...: <>; Typhoon USAGI (ODETTE) Update Number 007 | Weather Philippines: <>; Typhoon USAGI (ODETTE) Update Number 008 | Weather Philippines: < (1 more message)
deanclkclk: pankkake: are you around?
ThickAsThieves: if anyone like's gingery drinks, this stuff is great:
davout: Duffer1: dunno, i didn't take care of that myself
Duffer1: ah
ThickAsThieves: good as mixer or a zippy refresher
ThickAsThieves: (the ginger beer)
deanclkclk: folks...attention. I bid for 1 BTC for $100 USD but, instead get 1.04 BTC
deanclkclk: does most exchange work like this?
Duffer1: how long ago? lloyds is covering some bitcoin based noob vault, they may be receptive
Duffer1: multiple tangents and generally talking past eachother? ya
mircea_popescu: i like the folks attention bit. who do you take yourself for dood.
mircea_popescu: shut up and spend the next year reading, you're not part of the speaking crowd here.
pankkake: deanclkclk: yes why?
deanclkclk: I just reread what you type and I think there's a misunderstanding
deanclkclk: see what I typed above pankkake &
deanclkclk: ^
Apocalyptic: BingoBoingo, what's weird about it ?
ThickAsThieves: dean you are making shit up in your head
ThickAsThieves: of course that happens
ThickAsThieves: when you overbid
ThickAsThieves: except you spend less $ instead
ThickAsThieves: you are trying to make some kind of reverse auction bidbook?
deanclkclk: overbid is relative
deanclkclk: how do you know you overbid
deanclkclk: ?
ThickAsThieves: if you knew you wouldnt overbid
deanclkclk: ThickAsThieves: that's not an exact science
deanclkclk: all I'm saying...with the site..there's no over bid
pankkake: I blame today's headache on you guys
ThickAsThieves: well the orders are always changing
deanclkclk: if you "overbid" ..u get more btc
deanclkclk: that's all
ThickAsThieves: i suggest you make your thing
deanclkclk: but, orders change a second
ThickAsThieves: sounds wonderful
deanclkclk: you sound sarcastic
ThickAsThieves: i do?
deanclkclk: well...seeing that no one here have said "wonderfule" since I've been here
ThickAsThieves: well its what you wanna hear right?
deanclkclk: well no
ThickAsThieves: oh?
deanclkclk: I want to get objective opinion
deanclkclk: rather calling me stupid
ThickAsThieves: does that opinion have to think you have a good idea?
deanclkclk: I don't know anymore
ThickAsThieves: they explained it to you
ThickAsThieves: you are scratching the surface
pankkake: the "doing it" phase usually helps you know if the idea was good or not
pankkake: and no need for real coins
deanclkclk: would testnet help?
ThickAsThieves: you dont need any coins
ThickAsThieves: its just a db
deanclkclk: ok
benkay: yeah simulate it
benkay: set it up
benkay: set up the simulations
benkay: and i'll go through the trouble of auditing your code.
deanclkclk: but, all I'm people ever work with exchanges that give you more for what you asked for?
benkay: deal?
deanclkclk: sure
mircea_popescu: benkay i thought you were busy
deanclkclk: that's a deal
benkay: he's never going to deliver.
benkay: i'm shorting his delivery.
mircea_popescu: if he is you owe me an atc.
deanclkclk: why you say that?
ThickAsThieves: a good exchange always gives you what you ask for, no?
deanclkclk: yes..that's the minimum ThickAsThieves
benkay: outta mah FACE mircea_popescu
deanclkclk: but, a better exchange gives you more
mircea_popescu: if he doesn't before you do you get 1.
Duffer1: i don't see how you could get more for what you asked for, someone has to get less in that scenario
deanclkclk: it doesn't Duffer1
benkay: i'm not taking this bet, mp.
mircea_popescu: lmao
BingoBoingo: Apocalyptic: I'm trying to put in a Bid for 12000 and instead getting bids for 12
mircea_popescu: i thought you already had. guess not huh.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8800 @ 0.00087145 = 7.6688 BTC [-]
benkay: how had i?
mircea_popescu: "i'm shorting his delivery."
ThickAsThieves: if i understand your idea, all it does is market buy with the rest of any money you bid, if you happened to overbid
benkay: yeah if he delivers i gotta deploy some time on a code audit
deanclkclk: if I bid $100 BTC but, I got it with 99 Duffer1 ..either the user gets back $5 dollars or they trade it for some additional BTC/Satoshis
deanclkclk: sorry I got it for 95
mircea_popescu: so if he doesn't deliver before you do you get a free atc.
benkay: before i do what now?
mircea_popescu: deliver.
ThickAsThieves: wow ATC only doled out in singles now
benkay: oh mimisbrunnr?
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves expensive shit.
mircea_popescu: benkay whatever it is you're busy with
benkay: nigga i got an endless list of shit to process
ThickAsThieves: is he busy making yet?
mircea_popescu: yes yes, tits brulee.
benkay: gotta keep the brain in tip top condition
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves apparently he's busy watching womenz in negligees wash dishes and programmers do mysql exchanges.
deanclkclk: whatever I'm explaining is making sense?
davout: Duffer1: do you remember the name of the "vault" that says its insured?
Duffer1: let me look
ThickAsThieves: satoshisvault?
ThickAsThieves: this ?
ThickAsThieves: fukn doge..
Duffer1: davout
deanclkclk: so I'm saying rather than get back $5 dollars and create another trade; which time is money and during that creation you might miss a chance on a great trade
deanclkclk: the site does it for you
davout: ThickAsThieves Duffer1 thanks i'll have a look
deanclkclk: well it's an option. Get back fiat or get more crypto
benkay: ThickAsThieves: he's convinced me to hack an allchain watcher together
ThickAsThieves: a what?
benkay: precisely.
mircea_popescu: omg sikrits
benkay: shh
deanclkclk: hello? anyone can let me know if this idea makes any sense?
ThickAsThieves: lol
benkay: yes
benkay: now go do it
benkay: less talk, more do.
deanclkclk: benkay: u are not bullshitting me right?
deanclkclk: lol
ThickAsThieves: it sounds more like a feature than an exhange dean
benkay: not at all
ThickAsThieves: like a tickbox by my order fields
deanclkclk: yes
ThickAsThieves: X Full Spend if Overbid?
deanclkclk: yes
Duffer1: i don't see why you would want to dean, a person can just set their price to buy until their 100 is spent
benkay: you make an exchange, i'll audit it for you.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11000 @ 0.0008713 = 9.5843 BTC [-]
benkay: all the audits going to say is probably something like "kinda full of holes, operationally bogus, liable to lose your coins"
ThickAsThieves: why market buy when you can pseudo market buy?
deanclkclk: if you say so benkay
deanclkclk: but, it will be in beta
benkay: deal? you stop bothering us about this until it's done, when it's done i audit your codebase.
deanclkclk: what do you mean Duffer1 ?
ThickAsThieves: i like how beta means "dont look at me if your money disappears"
Duffer1: well what happens right now if you place a 100$ bid for btc on btc-e?
deanclkclk:'s fake coins
deanclkclk: well play coins
deanclkclk: just for testing
deanclkclk: then when launch..the site will provide 3 months of trading free
Duffer1: if your bid matches a sell, the exchange executes the trade for however much the seller sold
Duffer1: your position is still open if you have any money left and no sellers willing to meat your price
deanclkclk: hopefully ...after about 10 months. We could insure folks coins but not like 100%
Duffer1: meet
ThickAsThieves: lol
mircea_popescu: the decision of how many months of free trade to have is a resolution of the greater issue of how to market a product, which is in turn decided and framed by greater issues.
mircea_popescu: to have fixed answers for such low level questions at this juncture merely indicates you do not have the intellectual resources to correctly model the problem you declare./
Apocalyptic: <deanclkclk> hopefully ...after about 10 months. We could insure folks coins but not like 100% // good luck with that
deanclkclk: why Apocalyptic ?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 377 @ 0.05626923 = 21.2135 BTC [-] {12}
ThickAsThieves: lol
deanclkclk: I wasn't asking question mircea_popescu I was pitching an idea
deanclkclk: go fuck yourself
mircea_popescu: derp.
pankkake: :(
ThickAsThieves: ;;roulette
gribble: *click*
ThickAsThieves: ;;bcstats
gribble: Current Blocks: 286068 | Current Difficulty: 2.6214044530646152E9 | Next Difficulty At Block: 286271 | Next Difficulty In: 203 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 2 hours, 55 minutes, and 1 second | Next Difficulty Estimate: 3092710570.63 | Estimated Percent Change: 17.97915
deanclkclk: from my first've been making me out to be a mentally retarded idiot
Duffer1: don't take that personally hehe
deanclkclk: rather than complain..offer suggestions
Duffer1: have you read Trilema?
mircea_popescu: i wasn't making you out.
deanclkclk: I don't know everything...that's why I asked for answers...suggestions
mircea_popescu: and you are neither at liberty to judge me nor are you at liberty to make recommendation.
mircea_popescu: more importantly, you aren't at liberty to ignore the recommendations i make. re-read the log, they're there.
mircea_popescu: it's not a matter of you "not knowing everything", implying we are somehow equal.
mircea_popescu: it is a matter of you not knowing anything, not even sufficiently something to allow you to understand how little you know.
deanclkclk: man
mircea_popescu: ayup.
mircea_popescu: so now that we understand ourselves, get in the wot, stfu and read the log for a while, then we can talk again.
ThickAsThieves: deanclkclk,
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.06950005 = 0.139 BTC [-]
ThickAsThieves: and
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3000 @ 0.00087689 = 2.6307 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, pankkake you may wanna take out the OTQuMjMuMjE1LjE3NA== part.
mircea_popescu: it's there so i can ip-ban spammy rss stealers.
benkay: deanclkclk: you agreed to bugger off 'till you delivered something i can audit. now do so.
davout: Duffer1: looks interesting, i see nothing obviously sketchy for the service
pankkake: I don't know if I can apply filters to this thing
davout: ThickAsThieves: vaultofsatoshi has like a 11-people team, that sounds big for an exchange that does 400 weekly volume
mircea_popescu: davout who are the 11 people ?
Duffer1: davout ya it's just insured cold storage, but maybe lloyds would be approachable about insuring an exchange
ThickAsThieves: i know nothing of it
ThickAsThieves: just recalled the name for some reason
davout: the insured guys are btw
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.125 BTC [-]
davout: mircea_popescu:
mircea_popescu: davout so there's 11 stock pics or w/e.
benkay: and maybe in retrospect it's not so much a shorting as entering into an option to spend some time if the guy leaves us alone, delivery of which he'll take when/if he delivers
deanclkclk: I'll try another irc. You guys are too playful to be taken seriously
benkay: deanclkclk does that mean our deal's off?
ThickAsThieves: your loss
benkay: play is an important part of thinking
Duffer1: i doubt very much you'll receive competent advice elsewhere
ThickAsThieves: go check out bitcoin-dev or something i guess
mircea_popescu: benkay Yeah, I’m getting rid of all my furniture. All of it. And I’m going to build these different levels, with steps, and it’ll all be carpeted with a lot of pillows. You know, like ancient Egypt.
davout: mircea_popescu: exactly, which looks sketchy
davout: deanclkclk: you want advice to create your exchange?
benkay: deanclkclk: you might listen to davout he does what you're dreaming of doing.
deanclkclk: I don't want on how to create an exchange. I'm just pitching my idea to get a feel of what people think
mircea_popescu: davout is too playful to be taken srsly.
deanclkclk: want a how to*
davout: deanclkclk: so you want a howto about how to create an exchange?
deanclkclk: lol
deanclkclk: oh boy
mircea_popescu: i could use a how to on how to.
ThickAsThieves: OpenEx is opensource, use that
benkay: yeah your howotos suck, mircea_popescu
Apocalyptic: (don't)
mircea_popescu: WHAT!
benkay: it's like you write 'em yourself or something ;)
mircea_popescu: i am so misunderstood. nobody understands me
mircea_popescu: im going to shoot myself with the stapler gun nao
benkay: well you write for yourself, is it any surprise?
davout: deanclkclk: oh sorry, I misread, what's your idea?
benkay: jurov had to pay me to write a manual for your "exchange"
Duffer1: ha i told stringpuller there was money there like months ago
deanclkclk: davout: basically from a trade..people get more from what they ask for
ThickAsThieves: what i hate about mpex is, whenever i overbid, i have btc left unspent, fukn noobs
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves i was in talks with some people to recharge your phone after bids if there's like stuff left over
mircea_popescu: however i think they od'd or something because i haven't heard from them in a while
deanclkclk: do you folks trade on sites or mobile apps?
pankkake: idea: when you overpay for shares, it is distributer to the seller; we would call this tipping
ThickAsThieves: mostly via SMS
mircea_popescu: whoa a TIPPING EXCHANGE
Apocalyptic: <deanclkclk> davout: basically from a trade..people get more from what they ask for // so what about it ?
mircea_popescu: it could be all coded in doge-os
BingoBoingo: doge.js
pankkake: well,
deanclkclk: dajavu but, anyways
pankkake: omg "now with doge"
Apocalyptic: BTC China already has these rebates, where the fee for the liquidity taker goes to the one who put up the bid/ask
mircea_popescu: i wonder if praeconium has an evil sock meconium
davout: deanclkclk: that's your idea for an exchange?
deanclkclk: I bid a $100 for 1 BTC and I find a ask for $95.
benkay: doge-vu
davout: i spend all the 100$ and get more btc
davout: yeah i got that
deanclkclk: and use the $5 dollars to find an additional ask
BingoBoingo: "I'm fucking sick of hearing people say use your brian, etc."
davout: deanclkclk: this is not a very interesting idea, and certainly not an idea worth building an exchange around
deanclkclk: so basically you could have a case where for the original $100 for 1 BTC..I get 1.02 btc
deanclkclk: @ davout ^
davout: yeah, i got that the first time
davout: :-)
deanclkclk: ok
mircea_popescu: O RLY? YA RLY <code block> NO WAI <code block> OIC
deanclkclk: why isn't it interesting?
mircea_popescu: ok this is pretty good :D
Bugpowder: mircea_popescu: when is the MPOEbot coming back? And when will pending deposits be credited?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4850 @ 0.00087433 = 4.2405 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: Bugpowder the bot just as soon as it manages to talk to bitcoincharts
deanclkclk: @ davout ^
mircea_popescu: and deposits just as soon as lemme see
davout: deanclkclk: because you reinvented market orders, except you have the currency amount you're spending locked, not the currency you're buying
Bugpowder: been waiting for a test deposit for 36 hours....
davout: bitstamp already does it
davout: deanclkclk: so no, it's not a very interesting idea, not a bad way to let users place orders but still
deanclkclk: you are a trader davout ?
mircea_popescu: incredible how thick this guy is lmao
davout: goodbye deanclkclk, i'm going to play
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo pretty lulzy.
deanclkclk: davout: it benefits the seller and buyer. I was talking from mostly from the buyer
deanclkclk: ok
Bugpowder: I like the cryptsy system of, whatever bid you place that is over market, you get filled at asks at that exact price.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Of course. Who really wants to use their acquaintance Brian in that way at all. Everyone knows their Brian will just flag everything as a scam and tell them to STFU n00b.
mircea_popescu: clearly evil brian.
Duffer1: cryptsy system of trading, make trade, it executes a few hours later
mircea_popescu: Bugpowder why ?
deanclkclk: Duffer1: u mean everything gets execute late?
Bugpowder: you know... place asks and bids way off market at round numbers, get favorably filled at random intervals in the future.
Duffer1: it was a joke, cryptsy is a joke ^.^
mircea_popescu: sounds artistic.
mircea_popescu: like you know, trade as a happening.
BingoBoingo: I'm wondering when other ATC people are coming over to Apocalyptic's exchange.
BingoBoingo: Or... are we all waiting for Openex withdrawals
benkay: openex scam
benkay: use your brian BingoBoingo
Apocalyptic: first ATC deposits will confirm in a couple of hours given the network rate, no much action to be expected until then
Bugpowder: heheh
Apocalyptic: benkay, indeed
BingoBoingo: benkay: They have processed withdrawals before, it just usually takes 12 hours or so. Now, their order matching... totally scam.
mircea_popescu: yeah even on the internets ppl need a little time
Apocalyptic: it seems deanclkclk took his idea over to -otc now
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27600 @ 0.00087723 = 24.2115 BTC [+] {4}
Duffer1: i wonder how many times he's been offered super cheap ltc
mircea_popescu: prolly a much better environment for him anwyay.
davout: deanclkclk: what people are trying to tell you is that your idea is not retarded, but that it does not constitute an original value proposition
benkay: you guys you guys you guys
benkay: especially deanclkclk
benkay: plus also the animations are pretty sweet
mircea_popescu: omfg the derpage.
benkay: did i just get mircea_popescu to watch a video?
mircea_popescu: indirectly but yet.
mircea_popescu: yes*
benkay: indirectly?
mircea_popescu: someone must be punished for this.
benkay: it's his fault.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9500 @ 0.00087806 = 8.3416 BTC [+] {2}
BingoBoingo: Looks like Openex just processed a batch of withdrawls. Once these things confirm it will be time to shoot them over to x-bt
Apocalyptic: .d
Apocalyptic: damn you ozbot
BingoBoingo: ;;diff
gribble: 2.6214044530646152E9
asciilifeform: ;;gpg eauth asciilifeform
gribble: Request successful for user asciilifeform, hostmask asciilifeform! Get your encrypted OTP from
asciilifeform: ;;gpg everify freenode:#bitcoin-otc:1b013f0cf4604b0b39eee440b7280e1eb97c6aab5d299814ffc31393
gribble: You are now authenticated for user asciilifeform with key B98228A001ABFFC7
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in a world where every "idea" is in fact chewed and spit and chewed so many times by so many generations by now all that's left is the spit itself << not quite.
asciilifeform: fundamental ideas are still possible.
mircea_popescu: like for instance.
asciilifeform: i have so little faith in the meta-nsa that i'll drop one here.
mircea_popescu: can be historical
mircea_popescu: doesn't have to be curren
mircea_popescu: t
asciilifeform: 2 yrs. ago i figured out how to flex a fairly ordinary multi-conductor cable in an arbitrary spot, at an arbitrary angle, purely electrically.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 20 @ 0.05500028 = 1.1 BTC [-] {3}
asciilifeform: this alone should be enough detail for any 'alert reader' to replicate...
mircea_popescu: and this is fundamental ?
asciilifeform: depends on your definition of fundamental. robotics without motors, gears, shafts, lubrication...
asciilifeform: if 'fundamental' means 'discover new field of mathematics', then clearly not.
mircea_popescu: well given what you were replying to i took fundamental to mean "which was never afore thought"
asciilifeform: i did try to find some prior art, of some kind. found none.
asciilifeform: i post this turd here, to challenge the 1,000 idlers listening to us, to do so.
asciilifeform: i'd dearly love for it to be found. so i'm not stuck building the damn thing.
asciilifeform: hint: waveguide allowed to deform.
asciilifeform: as far as i could tell, the last fellow who pondered a related question was mr. t, when he coughed up the ac motor.
mircea_popescu: seems to me about half the 12-yo-boy demographic cartoons out there use this concept.
mircea_popescu: understand, my approach was cultural not technical.
asciilifeform: ?
asciilifeform: every animated robot i know of shows robotic arms with joints
asciilifeform: rather than walking coax.
mircea_popescu: i just googled "robot cartoon"
asciilifeform: (well, triax.)
mircea_popescu: the 7 images at the top include 0 articulated arms
mircea_popescu: all are some sort of tube
asciilifeform: they still typically show at least vaguely jointed movement.
asciilifeform: though perhaps an aficionado of tentacle porn could cough up a counter-example.
mircea_popescu: now, obviously the fact that star-trek revolves around ipads does exactly nothing in a discussion of prior ipad art
mircea_popescu: but it was this rather than that angle i was pursuing.
asciilifeform: so, boolean algebra. fundamental? or, aristotle?
asciilifeform: (that is, or not, given the latter)
mircea_popescu: right.
asciilifeform: semiconductor?
mircea_popescu: the cellphone is a trivial greek trinket. they didn't know how to make it, but they did have them in their speech
mircea_popescu: semiconductor is fundamental perhaps.
asciilifeform: public key crypto?
mircea_popescu: certainly the strange behaviours of quantum that manifest at a macro level, from magnetism to histerezis, would perhaps count.
asciilifeform: i tend to think of 'fundamental' in the literal sense. that is, becomes a foundation for a recognizably novel class of things
mircea_popescu: pkc definitely not.
mircea_popescu: yeah but novel in what sense.
mircea_popescu: novel as in "never made before" or novel as in "never spoken of before" ?
asciilifeform: novel in the classic sense of transforming a 'mystery' into a mere 'problem'.
mircea_popescu: right. but still, people spoke of the mystery back when it was not yet a problem
mircea_popescu: would you say the people trying to disprove (or for that matter prove) ZFC are or are not included ?
asciilifeform: can only be said in retrospect.
mircea_popescu: does only the speech of whoever gets the result count ?
mircea_popescu: right. which is what invalidates (from a purely philosophical pov) the approach
Bugpowder: mircea_popescu: ty... Hoping to see MPOEbot make a triumphant return soon.
asciilifeform: true. the turd i threw in is not 'fundamental invention', unless it is 10 yrs. later.
asciilifeform: (and the stepper motor and ball screw go to the junkyard)
asciilifeform: (picture, say, street swept by long spool of wire with a broom on one end and a lunchbox-sized driver on the other.)
asciilifeform: every day i wake up and wonder how many other folks are sitting on crap like this
asciilifeform: because there's no place for it.
ThickAsThieves: <Bugpowder> mircea_popescu: ty... Hoping to see MPOEbot make a triumphant return soon. /// unlikely til Gox reopens wd's
mircea_popescu: why ?
ThickAsThieves: cuz i assume bot is off cuz risk
Bugpowder: as do i
mircea_popescu: no, srsly, it actually did not get prices.
Bugpowder: shorting puts right now would be sweet
mircea_popescu: last it quoted was sometime yest.
ThickAsThieves: where do you get prices?
Bugpowder: though shorting puts yesterday would have been sweeter.
ThickAsThieves: works for me
mircea_popescu: same place.
mircea_popescu: yes but it has to answer when the bot asks
Bugpowder: ;;bc,24hprc
gribble: 463.40
ThickAsThieves: ok
ThickAsThieves: bot asks like every 10min no?
mircea_popescu: i think there may be a cascading effect where if it misses one it asks too often and then it gets banned for an interval
mircea_popescu: but i was never able to troubleshoot it
mircea_popescu: how would it have been sweet yest anyway ? seem sthe price dropped.
asciilifeform: unrelated: neat find, from today's trip to library, for all crypto aficionados: 'Post-Quantum Cryptography.' Bernstein, Buchmann & Dahmen. (2009)
ThickAsThieves: i dont plan on buying any, i just think it's weird how this happens every "crash"
mircea_popescu: does it tho ?
asciilifeform: (anyone playing with mceliece and the like will find something delicious therein)
ThickAsThieves: at least 2 of the 3 ive seen
ThickAsThieves: i dont recall abnout the 1200 drop
mircea_popescu: yeah well in this process any data can be fit to any hypothesis.
Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, you're into crypto ?
ThickAsThieves: mpex would certainly look better to be working than not
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: just so happens i'm into a number of things.
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves no particular requirement one can't just trade as is you know ?
ThickAsThieves: not sure what you are saying
Apocalyptic: I wrote some crypto challenges a couple of years ago, involving breaking hash functions and differential crypto, they might interest you
mircea_popescu: i am saying that mpex allows people to trade whether the bot quotes or doesn't quote,
ThickAsThieves: we're talking about the bot
mircea_popescu: and that the bot is a private offering which is in principle not required to offer anyone any convenience other than its backers.
mircea_popescu: so it can't possibly a) look good or bad b) make mpex anything.
benkay: people can't price options on their own, though mircea. that competence thing.
ThickAsThieves: to you maybe
mircea_popescu: well to logix
ThickAsThieves: why not fix it?
benkay: it's not making any money for mpex shareholders not trading!
ThickAsThieves: ^ decent argument as well
mircea_popescu: cuz it's a fucking hassle to fiddle with its feed, it being hardened ;/
benkay: ThickAsThieves that sounds like a call for a subscription market service.
ThickAsThieves: sound slike something karpeles would say
mircea_popescu: but yeah, quoting outages are temporary, people (who don't generally trade) like to bitch/find conspiraci explanations for otherwise random events.
mircea_popescu: which you know, how much effort can i expend chasing.
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves dude wtf are you talking about srsly. what is the connection there ?
asciilifeform: a hilarious find, from the same trip:
ThickAsThieves: saying it's a hassle to fix a broken service?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 10 @ 0.06099997 = 0.61 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: i think you misrepresent a convenience for a right.
asciilifeform: i was not able to locate the ditch filled with the non-functioning students.
asciilifeform: but i admit i did not look very hard.
benkay: all in their bedrooms
mircea_popescu: the bot doesn't have to quote any more than you do. where's your quote on options ?
benkay: ruminating on the future of los estados unidos
mircea_popescu: have you fixed this broken service ?
ThickAsThieves: no one has to do anything
ThickAsThieves: let's just all go home
benkay: also wtf terp asciilifeform?
asciilifeform: turtle is the symbol of the uni. for some reason.
mircea_popescu: no but srsly.
benkay: yeah but - 'terp'?
asciilifeform: terrapin turtle
ThickAsThieves: is there any logging of mpexbot uptime?
ThickAsThieves: optionsbot
asciilifeform: about palm-sized.
ThickAsThieves: not sure what you name it
mircea_popescu: not that i know, but i suppose it's becoming more useful.
Apocalyptic: benkay, a mix between turtle and derp
benkay: all terps are henceforth confined to their quarters
benkay: ritual canings will be administered until moral improves.
asciilifeform: there is a statue on the campus, car-sized, so many of the locals think it must be a gigantic sea-turtle.
ThickAsThieves: i guess no one cares but Bugpowder anyway
benkay: morale*
ThickAsThieves: i still think it's lame
benkay: i care where's my damn options bot profit
mircea_popescu: so make a watcher and do some research.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27500 @ 0.00087866 = 24.1632 BTC [+] {4}
benkay: i don't really much care in the grand scheme of things but its a point what needs making.
Bugpowder: I have a history of crushing MPOEbot. I think MP fears my awesome trading powers and has pulled the bot.
benkay: lol yeah he saw you fiddling with your key again and pulled the bot
ThickAsThieves: it did happen whilst you were sorting out your key!
Bugpowder: EXACTLY
mircea_popescu: clearly!
ThickAsThieves: observably!
benkay: teh horreur
mircea_popescu: no that was because of satoshi malleability.
asciilifeform: the turtle statue traditionally gets 'offerings' during exam week. this year, more whiskey bottles and handmade bongs than ever before.
mircea_popescu: we had to check all satoshis for cubeness
mircea_popescu: by hand
mircea_popescu: one at a time
benkay: malleability options next?
Bugpowder: heh
Bugpowder: to manipulatable
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 53 @ 0.00296999 = 0.1574 BTC [+]
benkay: well yeah
davout: "we had to check all satoshis for cubeness" <<< win
Bugpowder: I imagine the feed will start working around the same time gox gets dropped from bitcoincharts, and the artificial price jump risk will have been eliminated
mircea_popescu: with all the bitching,
mircea_popescu: 13924429xx ; 13924424xx ; 13924419xx ; 13924414xx ; 13924408xx ; 13924408xx ; 13924408xx ; 13924403xx ; 13924403xx ; 13923763xx ; 13923724xx ; 13923716xx
mircea_popescu: that's the past 12 times it quoted
mircea_popescu: Bugpowder srsly, mtgox is not even in the feed of bitcoincharts, since days ago.
mircea_popescu: it has exactly 0 impact in all this discussion.
ThickAsThieves: yes it is
mircea_popescu: mnope.
Bugpowder: it is
Bugpowder: how do they get $465 / BTC
Bugpowder: without it.
ThickAsThieves: you even noted yourself yesterday
ThickAsThieves: that it factors euro
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 439 @ 0.00296999 = 1.3038 BTC [+] {2}
ThickAsThieves: goxprice
mircea_popescu: o wow look at that.
mircea_popescu: well this is definite bs.
mircea_popescu: but but but wtf, soimehow my bot sees 500ish avgs
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 76 @ 0.00296999 = 0.2257 BTC [+]
ThickAsThieves: i thgought it couldnt see?
mircea_popescu: 537 last
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves i just gave you above a list of last times it quoted!
pankkake: Updated : better CSS(!), strip weird Trilema feed stuff, links to foaf/opml so you can import the list into your own reader. and this is genius:
ThickAsThieves: how do i read that list?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 392 @ 0.00296998 = 1.1642 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: unixtime
Bugpowder: I just want to short 50 DITM puts. A pittance.
Bugpowder: come back MPOEbot
Bugpowder: come back
Bugpowder: I miss u
mircea_popescu: dude did bitcoincharts split the feeds or something wtf is going on here.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 40 @ 0.00297 = 0.1188 BTC [+]
ozbot: Bitcoin Charts / Markets
Bugpowder: what feed are you looking at?
davout: mircea_popescu: if they removed gox from the index it'll probably still be taking into account data from before the removal
Bugpowder: 24hr bor
Bugpowder: bro
davout: Bugpowder: if it's the 24avg and it's been more than 24h then yes I guess sthg is off
ThickAsThieves: i dont think they removed gox
ThickAsThieves: and i doubt they will
davout: this ^
Bugpowder: I don't see why they should.
Bugpowder: They aren't making financial decisions based on their quote
mircea_popescu: sooooo
Bugpowder: though a nefarious agent could potentially take an options position and bribe them to remove it for assured profit.
mircea_popescu: turns out bugpowder is exactly right. bot actually isn't quoting because feeds disagree not because it couldn't get them.
mircea_popescu: i was wrong o.o
benkay: !b2
assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. (
ThickAsThieves: !b 3
benkay: foar history.
Bugpowder: lol
mircea_popescu: well fuck me am i supposed to know all this code these people write all the time everywhere omfgbbq
kakobrekla: i take bribes not to publish that.
Apocalyptic: heh
ThickAsThieves: lol
ThickAsThieves: we do it cuz we love you mp
Bugpowder: You should get the line before it too.
Bugpowder: A prediction of the future
Bugpowder: Feb 27, 2014.
benkay: mircea_popescu's having software trubbles
benkay: lol prole problems
davout: 2015 -> "intern accidentally deletes mpex"
benkay: proleblems
assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. (
benkay: !b 1
mircea_popescu: benkay the sad part of this of course being that this is actually according to spec i wrote myself.
benkay: wow the spec didn't account for all edge cases
mircea_popescu: at a time long ago when nobody had heard of such a case or imagined it likely.
benkay: color my ass surprised
mircea_popescu: no, that's the problem : it did.
mircea_popescu: it accounted for cases i duly forgot about and then happened
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06700005 = 0.335 BTC [+]
benkay: oh well then
benkay: mp wrote a spec that performs
benkay: color my ass surprised?
benkay: just joshin ya boss
mircea_popescu: anyway, mpoebot isn't quoting because the derivation among exchanges is too large, and likely won't until this is resolved somehow.
kakobrekla: why was the last quote 13923716xx then
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06700005 = 0.335 BTC [+]
Bugpowder: That seems more plausible
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla because then somehow (?!) the bitcoincharts avg came out as 537
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 564 @ 0.00023993 = 0.1353 BTC [-] {4}
mircea_popescu: which i still have no idea how
Bugpowder: mircea_popescu taps his keyboard of +3 plausibility.
kakobrekla: arite.
mircea_popescu: anyway ppls thanks for bringing it up lol.
mircea_popescu: by being in -assets i get the chance to learn how mpoebot etc actually work.
mircea_popescu: of course...this opnes up a fucking conundrum from hell,
mircea_popescu: because i am currently carrying a shitton of puts, which i would contractually be allowed to execute at the 430 bs bitcoincharts price
benkay: ;;ticker --market btcavg
gribble: BitcoinAverage BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 652.46, Best ask: 654.28, Bid-ask spread: 1.82000, Last trade: 654.25, 24 hour volume: 39430.17, 24 hour low: None, 24 hour high: None, 24 hour vwap: 647.65
mircea_popescu: hmm i wonder where that's from.
mircea_popescu: nanotube where does gribble get ;;ticker --market btcavg data from ?
TomServo: I'd guess
TomServo: Not sure why that's not the default tbh
nanotube: mircea_popescu:
mircea_popescu: a ty.
mircea_popescu: TomServo who runs it ? do you know ?
Bugpowder: It's 23,000BTC worth
Bugpowder: EXERCISE
TomServo: mircea_popescu: I don't, sorry.
Bugpowder: 12,000BTC PROFIT
nanotube: mircea_popescu: bitnumus
mircea_popescu: aha.
nanotube: mircea_popescu: bitcoincharts average got messed up one day, because accidentally pushed dogecoin trade data in place of bitcoin - thus producing high volume at really low price, and screwing things up.
mircea_popescu: nanotube was that day like feb 14th ?
nanotube: i think charts has removed for the moment
nanotube: erhm... let me see
benkay: #bitcoin-assets
nanotube: nope, that event was on feb 10
benkay: testing in production since 2011
assbot: Last 7 lines bashed and pending review. (
benkay: !b 7
nanotube: heh
BingoBoingo: Looks like x-bt had its first ATC trade
pankkake: there's a usuability issue, when you put an order, you get into the page in POST mode; refreshing it would likely submit the order a second time
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10100 @ 0.00087806 = 8.8684 BTC [-]
Apocalyptic: it wouldn't pankkake
mircea_popescu: what's the url again ?
Apocalyptic: csrf one-time token on every form
pankkake: oh, right
ozbot: X-BT - The new marketplace for trading Bitcoin with Litecoin, Namecoin and Altcoin
ozbot: X-BT - The new marketplace for trading Bitcoin with Litecoin, Namecoin and Altcoin
mircea_popescu: ty
Apocalyptic: unless you submit it before the script has a chance to set the new token ofc
mircea_popescu: um...
pankkake: I'm trying a herbijujular strategy!
mircea_popescu: you don't disable tokens after use ?
cads: mircea_popescu: I'm looking for introductory materials in quantitative finance with focus on hedge funds and derivatives valuation. Any input in this direction?
mircea_popescu: cads it'd deeply depend on what your background is.
mircea_popescu: pure math no finance ?
benkay: cads: joshi, derivatives.
mircea_popescu: i r guess ms joshi can't hurt
cads: mircea_popescu: some economics and game theory
mircea_popescu: "on becoming a quant", see if you hate it
mircea_popescu: iirc it was free
cads: math background is category theory, algebra, graphs and computation/logic
benkay: that'd be the piece in question, cads.
cads: cool, I'll give joshi a spin
benkay: also jc hull
benkay: options derivatives and stuff
benkay: req'd reading.
mircea_popescu: bear in mind that quants are idiots tho. always important to keep this clearly in your head
mircea_popescu: lest you end up believing your imagination has some bearing on reality.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 582 @ 0.00083559 = 0.4863 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 6 @ 0.06799997 = 0.408 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06799997 = 0.34 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: on which topic n taleb's stuff can't be sufficiently recommended i guess.
cads: mircea_popescu: Haha you mean quantitative models don't magically reorganize reality into your will?
mircea_popescu: exactly
mircea_popescu: and what's worse :
BingoBoingo: The herbi lesson where you place orders based on how you want the book to look rather than on how you could buy and sell at palatable prices.
mircea_popescu: this remains true no matter how breathtakingly beautiful, elegant or symetrical they be.
benkay: no mircea_popescu you see i have this model and it shows that if things were different things would be different
mircea_popescu: i have a different model.
mircea_popescu: the volatility in this chan is fantasitc, not two hours ago we were discussing the new and improved ordering whereby you get more phonenumber with your order,
mircea_popescu: now we're knee deep in kaballah,
mircea_popescu: it never ends with you people.
benkay: quantitative finance -> kabbalah
benkay: i'll buy that one ;)
mircea_popescu: benkay what do you think numeric/quantitative methods are ?
mircea_popescu: re asciilifeform's coin of dry spittle.
cads: I've been butting heads with the stochastic calculus and I think I'm about ready to start reading Probability with Martingales - random variables, random processes, and statistics are starting to feel a lot more natural.
BingoBoingo: The stuff that made Madonna dump A-Rod because his Batting average and WAR stopped being good numbers.
cads: Surprisingly so.... I'd hate for it to go to my head, though :)
mircea_popescu: cads you seen the predictonator ?
cads: Sounds like something a fund manager would name his secret pet model
benkay: mircea_popescu: stochastic simulations, generally? you'd know more than me...
benkay: i was cracking wise about the technical folks' tendency to resort to blind incantations.
ozbot: Man vs. Machine.
mircea_popescu: tjhat thing
mircea_popescu: benkay but dja know what the kabbalist ppl mostly do ?
cads: the thing I find very useful about the calculus is that, forget finance, say you're dealing with an arrival process in a factory production cell or in an autonomous agent - now /that/ is a situation where your models basically become the magic word of god.
mircea_popescu: this is true.
benkay: mircea_popescu: what?
benkay: cads: you can find greater job satisfaction at a lower rate doing stochastic inventory and supply chain stuff. that said, you have to live in factories or warehouses and interact with line staff from time to time.
mircea_popescu: benkay you familiar with how if you read only the nth letter in an arbitrary string you may find a message in there ?
benkay: mircea_popescu: yup
mircea_popescu: that, then.
cads: benkay: I currently /am/ a factory worker :)
mircea_popescu: and various variations and generalisations
benkay: stochastic extraction of "sensible" strings from longer ones?
mircea_popescu: which all amount to basically "let's find the parametric function of the future" or meaning or w/e
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 785 @ 0.00024797 = 0.1947 BTC [+]
benkay: cads: well then there ain't nowhere to go but up!
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.55999949 = 1.12 BTC [+] {2}
cads: So knowing the nth letter of say an english message will definitely give a probability distribution for things like "what word does this letter belong to" or "is this the middle or end of a word."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24400 @ 0.00087779 = 21.4181 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: cads except that's the correct way to use numeric methods
mircea_popescu: (ie, as to the message processed)
mircea_popescu: the kabbalistic approach is to use them in the manner global warmists use their "data"
mircea_popescu: ie, to predict or enact the word of gawd.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 4 @ 0.02579995 = 0.1032 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: (because you see, everything is in the torah, including the birthdate of your future wife you;ve not yet met, as well as the name of her secret lover)
benkay: this is true of π as well.
mircea_popescu: it is also true of the assets bash.
benkay: oh, our corpus isn't quite *that* large or *that* stochastic now...
BingoBoingo: And the trillions of hashes per second which aren't good enough to find blocks.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless it includes by reference enough material.
cads: This is why I refuse to learn finance first. I'd rather take whatever math intuition handicap than be caught using theorems whose conditions are not satisfied.
mircea_popescu: cads you'll never be popular with the fiat-finance crowds,
mircea_popescu: but at least you can always hang out here.
Bugpowder: You could probably do well in the just-dice groupie scene too
kakobrekla: lol price on gox just went 370->530
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6034 @ 0.0008728 = 5.2665 BTC [-] {2}
Bugpowder: god damn it
cads: oh yeah, I'd heard of a sizeable market crash.
Bugpowder: time for the bot to start quoting again
benkay: ;;ticker --market mtgox
gribble: MtGox BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 440.0, Best ask: 442.97, Bid-ask spread: 2.97000, Last trade: 450.0, 24 hour volume: 53582.53478578, 24 hour low: 310.0, 24 hour high: 540.0, 24 hour vwap: 368.92604
Bugpowder: Roger Ver's deposit cleared
benkay: the "ship to forum sockpuppets" asic ploy.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re: von neumann widget, lol. can't wait for some joker to start 'predicting market'
pankkake: successful trolling I guess
ozbot: MtGox bitcoin withdrawals working again : Bitcoin
mircea_popescu: start ?!
cads: is now tracking bitstamp rather than gox?
mircea_popescu: cads pretty much everyone is.
mircea_popescu: ;;ticker
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 666.0, Best ask: 669.0, Bid-ask spread: 3.00000, Last trade: 666.0, 24 hour volume: 20510.92582860, 24 hour low: 628.88, 24 hour high: 673.01, 24 hour vwap: 650.017359511
cads: Do we have arbitrage between gox and bitstamp?
mircea_popescu: gox is kinda dead
cads: gotcha
cads: 'Transaction Malleability'!?
asciilifeform: benkay: the "ship to forum sockpuppets" asic ploy << there is much to be learned from carnival / stage magic tradecraft re: scams
mircea_popescu: carnies. definitely.
asciilifeform: the 'plant in the audience' recipe, etc.
mircea_popescu: cads
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15141 @ 0.00087184 = 13.2005 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: check me out :D
ozbot: #bitcoin-assets log
mircea_popescu: also :
mircea_popescu: Kickstarter hacked, user data stolen
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 139 @ 0.0008356 = 0.1161 BTC [+]
ozbot: Kickstarter hacked, user data stolen | Security & Privacy - CNET News
Bugpowder: old
mircea_popescu: lol how old is it ?
Bugpowder: at least 4 hours
mircea_popescu: derp.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 300 @ 0.00083588 = 0.2508 BTC [+]
cads: Since when the fuck does bitcoin have fucking transaction fucking MALLEABILITY?!
Jere_Jones: This url should be spouted here more often: 'Tis fucking awesome.
Bugpowder: cads: at least 4 hours
cads: Wow!
copumpkin: cads: it's been known since 2011
mircea_popescu: cads like 2009 dood
copumpkin: it isn't really all that much of a problem
copumpkin: if you're aware of it, which it turns out nobody was
mircea_popescu: who the hell wasn't srsly.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 300 @ 0.000836 = 0.2508 BTC [+]
copumpkin: all the major exchanges and the "official" bitcoin-qt client :P
mircea_popescu: i think it was a topic of discussion at least monthly.
copumpkin: well, they all failed at it in some way or another
mircea_popescu: in this sense security qualifies.
copumpkin: anyway, it wasn't a threat of loss of bitcoins
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 261 @ 0.0008375 = 0.2186 BTC [+]
copumpkin: unless you layer additional stupidity on top of it
copumpkin: which mtgox apparently did
mircea_popescu: or so they say.
benkay: copumpkin: do you write in public anywhere?
copumpkin: I tweet occasionally
copumpkin: why?
mircea_popescu: because he likes you and would like to get to know you better.
mircea_popescu: in a more intimate manner.
cads: secsooally
mircea_popescu: no homo.
mircea_popescu: benkay you know he's the asshole who stole my bentley and gave it to a bunch of kids from like poor countries in india or some shit, and in exchange they hacked a bunch of iphones for him
mircea_popescu: or nokias or whatever it was.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 1000 @ 0.0055 = 5.5 BTC
cads: "While transactions are signed, the signature does not currently cover all the data in a transaction that is hashed to create the transaction hash. "
cads: Wut.
mircea_popescu: cause meta.
BingoBoingo: Doesn't he also keep a bunch of tomatoes prisoner or am I confused.
mircea_popescu: no that's copineaple.
mircea_popescu: no relation.
copumpkin: :)
benkay: bwaaaaat
cads: mircea_popescu: I'm going to investigate the excuse don't worry :D
benkay: anyways, this malleability thing as mentioned above is not really a flaw, cads.
mircea_popescu: it's a feature!
benkay: the flaw is in people using the txid as a bookkeeping device which satoshi explicitly warned against iirc
pankkake: apparently there are easy improvements
mircea_popescu: like tits, they get cold and flop arouind and your nipples hurt and everything,
copumpkin: it's not ideal and the devs are trying to adjust it
mircea_popescu: but they're defo not a flaw.
mircea_popescu: benkay yeah he did.
mircea_popescu: course he did because block reorgs iirc.
benkay: prezactly.
copumpkin: so, on a more important note
copumpkin: cloud atlas.
copumpkin: worth watching or not?
copumpkin: I like the soundtrack
cads: who composes?
mircea_popescu: watch it abd blog about the experience, i never saw it.
BingoBoingo: Anyways, the problem in Gox's case is they kept leading zeros in their signatures. Everyone else was like STFU that's dumb. Eventually some nodes started correcting this mistake.
mircea_popescu: ^ that'd be acurate.
mircea_popescu: mtgox was at least 5 times told to stop with the idiocy.
BingoBoingo: Cutting those zeros changed the txid though.
cads: copumpkin: You've got me piqued on the soundtrack
mircea_popescu: but apparently the php lolcat interpreter adds leading 0's to O RLY?/OIC blocks or something
copumpkin: cads: it's pretty good
cads: if a soundtrack is good I usually watch the movie
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Well so far it is at least two mistakes on Gox's part leading zeros and txid as database primary key.
mircea_popescu: i dun buy it.
BingoBoingo: Well, then there is the third mistake, scam.
asciilifeform: re: tx issue: this is reminiscent of microshit's EXE signing. where you can append whatever to the signed turd and it still passes checksum.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIF] 391 @ 0.00043898 = 0.1716 BTC [+] {2}
BingoBoingo: Mark's face is shaped in such a way, I imagine, he imagines he can just hug away the scam.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIF] 599 @ 0.00043899 = 0.263 BTC [+] {3}
cads: copumpkin: you're right, this is good
copumpkin: I'm a big fan of the tune in sonmi-451 meets chang, and the various times it recurs throughout the rest of the soundtrack
copumpkin: it picks up about halfway through
Bugpowder: Mark :
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the diference here being of course that you're not expected to run the whole turd
mircea_popescu: just the signed part.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: right. you arrange to have the turd jumped to after sig check.
mircea_popescu: well yeah in ashell environment. not quite that much flexibility in bitcoin scrupting
mircea_popescu: one thing i can't for the fucking life of me understand is why on earth has nobody made an actual competing implementation.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06799997 = 0.136 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: there are > 450964509860954 copy/paste alt coins
mircea_popescu: yet nobody went "ok, the ideas are quite clear, let's do this then"
asciilifeform: copy/paste vs. actual thinking.
mircea_popescu: there are 5k universities proposing they have cs departments, which is a fraud
asciilifeform: as described by herr mold.
mircea_popescu: as in a sane world no uni with a cs department could have done anything else in 2013 as a term paper
Bugpowder: man, gox back down to where it started... what a derp
mircea_popescu: than "make a bitcoin implementation"
ozbot: Unqualified Reservations: What's wrong with CS research
mircea_popescu: forget research even you know ?
benkay: mircea_popescu: it's a goddamn shame that everyone's leaving it to the self-taught hacks
mircea_popescu: this'd have been anyone's term project if i were teaching.
mircea_popescu: benkay ikr?
benkay: mircea_popescu: cs departments are for research. mechanical and ee departments are apparently where you learn to actually weld shit together.
cads: shame and opportunity
Bugpowder: How to blow 1000BTC in under 5 minutes.
mircea_popescu: and i seriously do not understand what a rector must be thinking to not close down their cs department after this
cads: how fitting
copumpkin: not sure I'd say it was blown, Bugpowder
mircea_popescu: "what, you have not implemented bitcoin as a term project ? you're defunded. 100%"
benkay: yup.
asciilifeform: can't speak for other unis, the cs dept. i studied in was a vacuum cleaner for slurping up DOD moneys
mircea_popescu: fucking bs.
asciilifeform: that is its primary function, with the students as an afterthought (read: source of cheap labour)
benkay: most us unis i've been to are similarly oriented around hoovering up research + dod monies asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: we're fortunate to live in a world where nobody has any clear measuring stick to be able to measure exactly how tall the pile of shameful excrement they find themselves under is.
mircea_popescu: so they can go around pretending like they're things they could never be.
asciilifeform: perhaps vaccum cleaner is the wrong picture. more of an idiot with mouth open, catching raindrops.
mircea_popescu: "humanities" "professors" that have no idea what a college is and can not speak latin,
mircea_popescu: cs professors who failed to have the kids implement bitcoin in 2013
mircea_popescu: all the unspeakable depth of pitecantropic refuse
asciilifeform: give it another decade... we implemented 'sed'.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform maybe i'm blinded by zeal but seems to me sed is actually harder.
asciilifeform: 'yesterday's nobel prize is tomorrow's homework'
asciilifeform: sed is arguably harder.
cads: I'd love to see a haskell or agda implementation
mircea_popescu: bitcoin once explained by satoshi is not actually hard in any sense
asciilifeform: and is 'politically' safe.
mircea_popescu: merely gotta do the work.
mircea_popescu: which is what cs depts are for.
asciilifeform: implementing btc would be a little like having the mech eng. students build a working howitzer.
mircea_popescu: so ?
benkay: hah
mircea_popescu: i definitely would.
asciilifeform: arguably imperative, but we live in bizarroworld
benkay: more like a potato gun
mircea_popescu: da fuck mech engineer you are can't build a hovitzer
benkay: u want shells too sir?
jayk: hmmm
asciilifeform: obligatory link to the MIT lamp video!
mircea_popescu: benkay you don't have to make the shells actually do anything you know ?
ozbot: MIT graduates cannot power a light bulb with a battery. - YouTube
mircea_popescu: a howitzer can fire blanks on the football field just fine
asciilifeform: correct.
benkay: sure but then you're not really putting the barrel through its paces are you?
mircea_popescu: or for that matter make it fire solid metal ordnance.
asciilifeform: (i once discovered that my uni used to have a rifle range. gone.)
mircea_popescu: at a wall or stack of sand bags or w/e
cads: mircea_popescu: sell some Coq nerds on the importance of implementing a formally verified blockchain algorithm and further specialization to a btc implementation :)
MisterE_: asciilifeform: is right, education is a business before all esle
mircea_popescu: cads know any ?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Most Land Grants had them back in the day.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13900 @ 0.00087607 = 12.1774 BTC [+] {2}
asciilifeform: it's hilarious. they have people 'formally verify' DRM crud.
asciilifeform: glass bead game.
mircea_popescu: apparently pitecantropic is not an english word. odd.
cads: mircea_popescu: just acquaintances on irc.
mircea_popescu: anyway, reference to the "java man"
mircea_popescu: cads so send them over.
asciilifeform: try 'pithecantropic' ?
mircea_popescu: a ok
mircea_popescu: pithecanthropus
cads: oh, key, copumpkin is also a #coq regular
mircea_popescu: o ya definitely likes the c0q
copumpkin: cads: we've spoken in all sorts of different places :P
asciilifeform: re: c0qlovers and proof-of-whatever: a particularly egregious case of glass bead game.
asciilifeform: (as discussed in a turd of mine, and elsewhere)
benkay: glass bead game?
asciilifeform: attempts at 'transitioning from the informal to the formal by formal means'.
cads: asciilifeform: it's always been one great misgiving of mine whenever I read papers on large formally verified software projects
asciilifeform: (see also
cads: for example UC's Quark verified browser kernel or the NICTA's l4.verified project.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 797 @ 0.00024797 = 0.1976 BTC [+]
benkay: cads: what kind of factory worker reads about formal verification of large software projects?!
asciilifeform: the whole 'automated proofs' business is fundamentally turdalicious
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you mean as a hesse reference ?
asciilifeform: yes
cads: I appreciate that we can create a kernel of security properties and then prove it about our access control model, and then build the system on that.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 703 @ 0.00024797 = 0.1743 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: it is an attempt to hide head in the sand, escape from the fact that the only way to guarantee expected function is: actual understanding
asciilifeform: by actual brains
benkay: you mean brians
asciilifeform: and this requires a 'bonfire of the' complexity.
cads: And I appreciate that this makes it /easier/ to avoid bugs - the only place a bug can now live is in the security properties you prove about your access model.
cads: And that's the part that hits my stomach with dread.
mircea_popescu: right
mircea_popescu: you can now have no bugs except that sort of bugs you'll never find
cads: Since /those/ bugs are embedded in philosophy
mircea_popescu: right
asciilifeform: or something as mundane as the hardware.
cads: But I'm optimistic since we can study the theory of what should constitute a correct and effective security property
asciilifeform: the entire field, giving its history and monetary incentives, is a poisonous offering.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 10 @ 0.02579995 = 0.258 BTC [-]
cads: It does feel like you're concentrating the bugs into a very rare and amazingly lucrative bug class
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.19376446 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: we aren't seeing proof in the mathematical sense. only (apologies to bush the lesser) - 'proofiness.'
asciilifeform: the idea that bugs are being banished anywhere by this obscurantist crap is nonsense.
asciilifeform: example, for the thick:
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11700 @ 0.00087836 = 10.2768 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: 'ECC' memory is largely absent from consumer turdware. i wait for the box running your 'proofy' crap to be hit by cosmic ray.
cads: hmm, the verified software I've read about uses security properties which are proven via a formal proof assistant in a standard logic.
asciilifeform: suddenly not so verified any more.
asciilifeform: go ahead, prove anything useful about an x86 box where an arbitrary bit might flip.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 16 @ 0.06899996 = 1.104 BTC [+] {3}
asciilifeform: (if cosmic rays are insufficient, someone might be so kind as to pump some ionizing strange through your server. or merely turn up the thermostat in the cage. etc.)
cads: fair enough, then even the most correct formally proven software should expect some faults due to underlying hardware.
cads: hm
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 6 @ 0.06899998 = 0.414 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: derp.
asciilifeform: of course, no need for such shenanigans if the box is already built of 'cooperative' iron.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 10 @ 0.06999998 = 0.7 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your dream of software that's unauditable by the user is getting closer and closer huh
asciilifeform: eh, it might as well be already
cads: asciilifeform: that brings us to study methods of invalidating the security properties by changing aspects of the substrate system that the security properties gloss over or assume by fiat.
cads: neat
asciilifeform: garden variety winblows box could busy a thousand auditors for a thousand years.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06999999 = 0.35 BTC [+]
cads: We can always dream about strong encryption for state machine dynamics.
cads: Which could give us some padding between the software agent and untrusted underlying hardware.
asciilifeform: cads: exists (provably not in the general case, but for many particular cases, sure)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14385 @ 0.00087519 = 12.5896 BTC [-]
cads: right, currently it's amazingly inefficient and not general, and I also believe there are unfortunate theoretical limits to the power of any such approach
asciilifeform: problem is (well, depending on how you look), the consumer is to be on the 'wrong end of the barrel' for this one.
cads: how so?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 68 @ 0.07 = 4.76 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: cads: look who is working on this, and why. or do i have to draw a picture.
cads: you may have to excuse my ignorance of the commercial or political side of this work
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 36 @ 0.00297 = 0.1069 BTC [+]
cads: I came up with the idea of encrypted computing when I was thinking how to design an autonomous AI agent that cannot ever have its state vector interrogated or partially simulated.
asciilifeform: turdware vendors are mightily annoyed that the occasional consumer, 'smarter than average rabbit', pries open and exposes their turdwork.
mircea_popescu: <cads> neat << good point actually.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3900 @ 0.00087843 = 3.4259 BTC [+] {2}
cads: So that if an adversary has captured the state vector they can only continue to simulate it faithfully
mircea_popescu: now that'd be interesting.
mircea_popescu: i'd like a mpex like thatr.
asciilifeform: cads: i reinvented the concept, as probably just about every maths student has, when first reading about Paillier's Addition and thinking 'what if you glue this to OISC - 'jump if zero' - machine.
cads: wow, nice
asciilifeform: no heroic feat here.
cads: right, I guess to jump from homomorphic encryption to obfuscated computation is a natural one.
ozbot: Paillier cryptosystem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
asciilifeform: and
asciilifeform: one neglected aspect of homomorphic turdcraft (let's assume that it were possible and practical in some general-'enough' case! for the sake of argument) is:
asciilifeform: unless you are carrying out the compilation with paper and pencil,
asciilifeform: you are forever doomed to trust the mechanism whereby you generated the cryptoturd.
cads: okay, so in our Paillier OISC we'd use subtract and branch of != 0, or subtract and branch if <= 0.
asciilifeform: because the result can never be verified.
asciilifeform: (verified to do what you intended it to.)
cads: Only with pallier operations
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 50 @ 0.005498 = 0.2749 BTC [+]
cads: wait how do we implement the order relation on the ciphertext version of the data
asciilifeform: cads: not so simple. you can't have the machine actually branch in any obvious sense
asciilifeform: or an observer could deduce logic
cads: right that would surely give the game away for most things
asciilifeform: incidentally
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06799997 = 0.136 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: wiki used to have a page on 'joseki' (not to be confused with the Go players' term)
Mats_cd03: Complicated technical gibbering, mundane, cryptodongs, etc
asciilifeform: nsa cryptosystem, circa 1980s. implied to function on this principle.
asciilifeform: page was zapped some time ago.
asciilifeform: (it was used in military firmware)
ozbot: JOSEKI (cipher) - Crypto Wiki
asciilifeform: something like that
asciilifeform: if i recall
asciilifeform: maybe it was just my imagination.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21400 @ 0.00087767 = 18.7821 BTC [-]
Mats_cd03: Big words followed by math things
asciilifeform: shannonizer?
asciilifeform: somebody ought to stoke one with this channel log.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19148 @ 0.00087854 = 16.8223 BTC [+]
benkay: amen
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19099 @ 0.0008787 = 16.7823 BTC [+] {2}
asciilifeform: and now for something completely different:
ozbot: ClubOrlov: “American” exceptionalism
Mats_cd03: i belieb in american exceptionalism
benkay: Mats_cd03: are you on cocaine?
Mats_cd03: im high on life nigga
benkay: hm
mircea_popescu: lmao! so very different
benkay: well i bleed american capitalism
mircea_popescu: ;;google trilema exceptionalismul personal
gribble: No matches found.
benkay: the old kind
mircea_popescu: eh gtfo google.
ozbot: Exceptionalismul personal pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
mircea_popescu: i do not make the mistake of positing it's romanian!
mircea_popescu: it's just stupiditarian.
Mats_cd03: american capitalism smells like fast food grease and dick cheese
Mats_cd03: not recommended for date night
benkay: these days certainly.
benkay: once upon a time it smelled like blood and money.
asciilifeform: if you're exceptionally lucky, it smells like the hangar where howard hughes farted in '72.
asciilifeform: but if you want a better smell, you'll need a time machine.
benkay: yeah. people were cool once.
Mats_cd03: i watched the aviator so yeah i can pretend like i know what youre talking about
TestingUnoDosTre: lies. when was that?
benkay: 1806-1859.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68300 @ 0.00087502 = 59.7639 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16252 @ 0.00087481 = 14.2174 BTC [-]
cads: hmm
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 150 @ 0.002973 = 0.446 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: people were cool from circa 1600 to about ww1.
mircea_popescu: then orwell's bugmen took over.
benkay: orwell's responsible for modern socialism?
asciilifeform: mr. o blamed the telegraph
mircea_popescu: no, but he described the type.
asciilifeform: (bugmen like central admin.)
cads: so joseki is a two part encryption decryption function E, D such that in some sense "the encryption algorithm is not the same as, and cannot be deduced from, the decryption algorithm."
mircea_popescu: makes this observation how the only sort of people who seem to trive in his dystopia are bug-like
mircea_popescu: short stubbly crab-like in movements etc.
benkay: ;;calc 59.7639 + 14.2174
gribble: 73.9813
cads: You can decrypt the existing operating system.
cads: To do that you read the bootstrap key.
cads: But once doing that, say you want to alter the code. You can't do that.
cads: For you cannot re-encrypt the code.
asciilifeform: implication is that this achieved something more than one can get by merely hashing & signing code.
cads: there's a million ways to subvert either
cads: just burn some of the traces on the bootstrap chip and suddenly it loads your unencrypted code just fine
asciilifeform: "On the far side of the room, sitting at a table alone, a small, curiously beetle-like man was drinking a cup of coffee, his little eyes darting suspicious glances from side to side. How easy it was, thought Winston, if you did not look about you, to believe that the physical type set up by the Party as an ideal-tall muscular youths and deep-bosomed maidens, blond-haired, vital, sunburnt, carefree - existed and
asciilifeform: even predominated. Actually, so far as he could judge, the majority of people in Airstrip One were small, dark, and ill-favoured. It was curious how that beetle-like type proliferated in the Ministries: little dumpy men, growing stout very early in life, with short legs, swift scuttling movements, and fat inscrutable faces with very small eyes. It was the type that seemed to flourish best under the dominion of
asciilifeform: the Party."
asciilifeform: ('1984')
mircea_popescu: ty.
cads: ... assuming you have a scanning tunneling electron microscope lying around.
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> implication is that this achieved something more than one can get by merely hashing & signing code. << fwiw i don't believe it does or could.
asciilifeform: cads: J. was devised for some unknown, godforsaken 1980s silicon. perhaps it sat the decryptor between the memory bus and cpu proper
Jere_Jones: How does an exchange that implements stop losses prevent a large order from crashing the market? If a large order comes in and wipes out the orderbook past serveral stop losses, those sells get executed after the large order right? They don't get interwoven with the large order? Interwoven seems harder to do and/or incorrect and/or unethical. That means that a stop loss can't actually
Jere_Jones: stop a loss if the market is relatively shallow. Am I misunderstanding something?
mircea_popescu: stop losses are usually offered as a best-effort thing, not as a guarantee
mircea_popescu: even in serious markets.
benkay: is there a ranking of purely crypto exchanges by vol?
Jere_Jones: And they do get executed after the order that dropped the price? Not interwoven?
mircea_popescu: there's no such thing as "interwoven"
mircea_popescu: that's why blocks are blocks.
Jere_Jones: Didn't think so. Thanks.
mircea_popescu: course, god knows what btc webmasters do.
mircea_popescu: but if you "interwoven" on nyse the sec will put your head on a pike on columbus ave.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: angels/pinhead, etc. one could easily picture something clever (block cipher allowing direct execution of crypted instructions, without an intermediate buffer for mass decrypt) or something foolish.
Jere_Jones: That sounds less than pleasant.
asciilifeform: we'll know when an american Mitrohin or Rezun lifts the specs.
cads: asciilifeform: in that case couldn't we say the same of hashing? Although I admit. Putting the decryptor somewhere in the main flow of the system has panache, and I wouldn't be surprised if a similar approach hashing is a lot less natural.
benkay: ;;calc 74*600
gribble: 44400
asciilifeform: cads: idea probably was, you'd like to block-cipher the blob, but don't want to send a symmetric key (however contained) into the field.
cads: right
asciilifeform: so you want something opposite to 'rsa'
asciilifeform: (where 'anyone enciphers, only one reads')
asciilifeform: exercise for alert reader!
cads: ;)
asciilifeform: deduce a working 'joseki'-like cryptosystem.
asciilifeform: (undergrad level problem.)
benkay: dang asciilifeform you're a taskmaster
asciilifeform: not like this is hard or anything.
benkay: well hey some of us are unversed. you have depth in it.
cads: asciilifeform: I'm confused as to the sense in which the encryption algorithm cannot be derived from the encryption algorithm
asciilifeform: decryption?
cads: righ
cads: is this to say the encryption _key_, can not be derived from the decryption key?
asciilifeform: not so hard.
asciilifeform: you have turds of a certain number-theoretical variety, that turn into plaintext when subjected to function F. F(turd) = plain. but you don't know F'(plain) = turd.
cads: typically the decryption key allows us to derive the encryption key via number theoretic properties
asciilifeform: cads: with some 'hardness assumption' in the way of practically accomplishing this, yes.
asciilifeform: but one could conceive of F' being the key itself
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34563 @ 0.0008694 = 30.0491 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: bureaucrats probably came in their pants, they hate the chore of key distribution, etc
cads: oh hey
cads: anyone wanna see women cumming while reading books?
cads: like, actual passages of cool literature like clockwork orange, sitting fully dressed at a table, while something undeniable is going on /under/ the table
asciilifeform: old hat.
cads: ah, saw it already?
cads: I thought it was really cute
cads: I liked the essays too
cads: I felt a bit too vouyeristic while watching to watch all of them, but it was enjoyable
mircea_popescu: sooo, anyone know a native chinese speaker ?
asciilifeform: sure.
asciilifeform: why
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29113 @ 0.00086896 = 25.298 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: because we have no resident chinese expert.
mircea_popescu: who ?
asciilifeform: colleague
mircea_popescu: so get him to come over!
asciilifeform: i'll poke him when i visit him on tuesday.
mircea_popescu: coolness.
asciilifeform: benkay: under no circumstances should i be confused with an actual expert on crypto
asciilifeform: but the practical application of the known building blocks is quite trivial.
asciilifeform: (somewhat less trivial if you want actual security, rather than a passing exam score, however)
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 15 @ 0.19376446 = 2.9065 BTC [+]
cads: anyways - asciilifeform I understand that. Ie, say we have two functions F and G such that G(F(x)) = x and F(x) is in some sense independent of x. Then (F, G) is a basic kind of cryptosystem, where F is the encryption function and G is the decryption function. For us not to be able to derive F from G, G must be infeasible to invert. I believe F can be encryption with a public key (which in this case the designer will keep public),
cads: and G is decryption with the corresponding private key (which is included on the chip). It's a bit of an inversion of control of the intention of public key systems but it works for our purpose.
cads: The only detail I am not sure is about the private -> public derivability of the keys.
cads: I know bitcoin's scheme allows us to derive a public key from the private one, and that this is actually not typical.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4800 @ 0.00087169 = 4.1841 BTC [+]
cads: asciilifeform: you say that we want the 'opposite' of rsa (public decrypt, private encrypt), but... this is just the same as giving the public the private key and keeping the public one secret.
benkay: thanks for that cads. babe and i just watched stoya's. a+
cads: wasn't it /amazing/?!
benkay: of course the woman's response is "i hate the essay!"
benkay: wtf not the point
benkay: maybe the point
benkay: everything's part of the point i suppose
cads: I liked stoya's own account
asciilifeform: cads: nope.
asciilifeform: having private P,Q you can P*Q and get public.
asciilifeform: what kind of exercise would this be if the answer involved only this.
mircea_popescu: benkay stoya, the whore ?!
ozbot: This Empty Love - InnerPartySystem - YouTube
mircea_popescu: aok
cads: mircea_popescu: you must watch this:
cads: "Hysterical Literature is a video art series by NYC-based photographer and filmmaker Clayton Cubitt. It explores feminism, mind/body dualism, distraction portraiture, and the contrast between culture and sexuality. (It's also just really fun to watch.) "
mircea_popescu: the other stoya.
cads: I'm questioning the feminist merit if only because I still enjoyed the work with a very male gaze :D
benkay: maybe the same stoya?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 1191 @ 0.002973 = 3.5408 BTC [+]
cads: no, absolutely the same stoya
benkay: mircea_popescu: you're missing out on all sorts of context not at least sampling videos
mircea_popescu: i'll live
cads: mircea_popescu: the idea is that an unpaid woman sits at a table and opens up a famous literary work she chose, begins to read a key passage, starts having and orgasm, continues trying to read, climaxes, and then closes the book and says "I'm ____ and this has been moby dick"
mircea_popescu: i'd guess about 35% of adult females can actually orgasm in the situation described.
mircea_popescu: but! that said orgasm distraction is certanly a fun game.
cads: Unseen under the table the photographer's lovely assistant is working away with the apparently supernaturally effect hitachi vibrator.
benkay: !t h rent
assbot: [HAVELOCK:RENT] 1D: 0.00550000 / 0.0055 / 0.00550000 (1164 shares, 6.40200000 BTC), 7D: 0.00550000 / 0.0055 / 0.00550000 (12577 shares, 69.17350000 BTC), 30D: 0.00550000 / 0.0055 / 0.00550000 (32202 shares, 177.11100000 BTC)
mircea_popescu: even so.
cads: right
cads: it takes dedication to do that
cads: The first volunteer is stoya the porn star
benkay: btw that mpex trade, like 74 btc?
benkay: just about a third of the rentalstarter ipo.
cads: we know she knows how to cum
asciilifeform: they make remote-controlled instruments for this kind of work.
mircea_popescu: she fakes it lots of times you know
cads: but the other volunteers are women that work in the arts
asciilifeform: wireless.
cads: one of the women is a museum curator
asciilifeform: long gone are the days when a bottle of bees was the state of the art.
cads: and in their essays it's clear they feel they are helping make sexuality a less dirty, less manipulated thing
mircea_popescu: i wonder if giving these chicks a book and asking them to read is a legit pick-up now.
benkay: bahaha
benkay: oh you
mircea_popescu: "hello"
mircea_popescu: "hi ?"
mircea_popescu: "i saw you on the internet. so here's le diable et le bon dieu, read for me."
cads: ah, the other thing
cads: despite being arguably non-pornographic (hosted, as it was, on youtube), the 9 videos in the series got 20 million views
mircea_popescu: that matters.
cads: mixed reviews from the critics alternately called it an awesome work of feminism and art, or skeptically denounced it as 'porn, not art'.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.06941006 = 0.1388 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: russian sf author / madman viktor pelevin had a piece where, in the Dark Future (tm) all other types of porn vanish, and only this remains
asciilifeform: ending up called 'DERP', or 'derivative porn'
asciilifeform: age of consent raised to 46, so all ordinary porn is forbidden
asciilifeform: and so what remains is 'porn' with films of the censor's faces
asciilifeform: viewing the forbidden.
cads: wait were the faces edited over the actors'
mircea_popescu: cads << 660mn views.
asciilifeform: people then frequent quasi-illicit Derp viewings.
mircea_popescu: i could continue but w/e.
cads: mircea_popescu: Bahaha.
cads: I'll leave it up to you to decide what type of logical fallacy you made by throwing Charlie Bit My Finger against the work of a singe avant garde fetish photographer. :D
asciilifeform: cads: in the tale? nope. just censors viewing That Which Is To Be Deleted
asciilifeform: and grimacing suggestively
asciilifeform: at least, as i recall.
mircea_popescu: cads no, you did. "the 9 videos in the series got 20 million views"
mircea_popescu: i merely showed how that idiocy reduces to the absurd.
cads: An average of 2 million views per video is an impressive metric for an internet personality.
mircea_popescu: there's no such thing as a "view" and consequently nohing there to count.
asciilifeform: recently saw a winblows trojan turd which loaded some unknown porn vid
mircea_popescu: and hence nothing impressive in it.
asciilifeform: (primitive 'click fraud')
cads: mircea_popescu is not impressed, guys
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.19376446 BTC [+]
cads: For the agents in an attention economy, those are important metrics.
mircea_popescu: nono, i'm impressed, deeply, just, there's nothing there to be impressive k ?
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing as an attention econonmy.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 8 @ 0.06941006 = 0.5553 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 15 @ 0.0694 = 1.041 BTC [-] {2}
cads: Okay, so lets start at the bottom. The claim there are no youtube views. Youtube clearly provides analytics on the number of visitors to a page. So are we saying these numbers are fabricated by youtube or third part 'view providers? Or that youtube views don't actually record how much attention someone payed to a video, whether they really watched it, etc.
mircea_popescu: cads i can make a webpage publishing arbitrary numbers.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 5 @ 0.19376446 = 0.9688 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 13 @ 0.0694 = 0.9022 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: in fact back in the lycos/infoseek/geocities days most everyone did.
cads: In the second and first cases I would point out that marketing companies trust view statistics.
cads: So people pay for views and they're real.
mircea_popescu: marketing companies do not trust view statisticsa,
mircea_popescu: they simply use that particular bezzle to defraud whoever's so inclined.
mircea_popescu: there's nothing particularly wrong with being a fraudster, i guess, until you end up believing your own crap.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 3 @ 0.19376446 = 0.5813 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: all this aside : putting "views" next to a number does not transform the number into a measure
asciilifeform: cads: pick up one of google's '$100 off' coupons and see for yourself what it is the chumps pay for
cads: right, we must trust the entity measuring the views and the method of measuring them.
mircea_popescu: nor are you at liberty to imagine the symbol views denotes whatever definition you may happen to allocate it.
mircea_popescu: first and foremost we must agree these "views" are a thing.
mircea_popescu: you can only measure that which is thing.
cads: okay
cads: so with multiple servers serving the same content it becomes a nontrivial task to syncronize the correct number, first
mircea_popescu: all this dovetails neatly, of course, into our earlier kabbalah discussion,
mircea_popescu: but i would like to add the observation that according to the 1800s crowd, patent medicine was actually useful, actually valuable and actually working.
asciilifeform: for some reason, i can't help but remember the american moneyed idiot who proclaimed that tv watchers who get up to piss during ads are committing fraud.
mircea_popescu: and its forbidding a serious abuse of the state power against individual sovereignity
mircea_popescu: a view which is actulaly getting a slight resurgence these days.
mircea_popescu: (promoted by interested parties, of course, which is to say scammors)
asciilifeform: hell, it actually worked - with opium in every bottle
mircea_popescu: opium provides no health benefits tho
asciilifeform: arguably a better deal than what today's hucksters are pushing, regardless
mircea_popescu: perhaps.
mircea_popescu: very much depends on what you're buying,.
mircea_popescu: much like say, closer to home, silicone.
mircea_popescu: you can get excellent chips
mircea_popescu: or you could get crud.
asciilifeform: can't resist pointing out that, at least on this side of the atlantic, 'silicone' refers exclusively to the type of rubber sold under that name
mircea_popescu: now the people who have no idea about electronics regularly buy whatever someone;s telling them to.
cads: mircea_popescu: at some level I feel you are saying that it absolutely does not matter that people spent an estimated 34 million minutes looking at this single artist's work, if only because we can't trust those estimates at all.
mircea_popescu: a sorry.

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