Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
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phf[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-25#1011598 << pest.lisp is also single threaded, because i just don't want to deal with synchronization issues
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-08-25 17:55:56 awt: Yes threading would be good. I tried it initially, but couldn't untangle db locking issues.
phf[asciilifeform]: but the inner loop functions are of course significantly cheaper than python…
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-08-23#1113346 << I appreciate you sharing. I'll hold my tounge and avoid making anymore assumptions.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: (asciilifeform) 2022-08-23 gregorynyssa: I still look forward to finishing the rest of the FFA tutorials when mathematics returns to my life. have a nice day, everyone.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-24#1011448 << this is analogous to one IRC client for every channel, think of the overhead !11!, also arguably multichan by a single client (and therefore single port) which decreases attack surface considerably at scale, and obfuscates traffic, making traffic analysis far more difficult
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-08-24 09:44:44 asciilifeform[jonsykkel|deedbot|crawlerbot]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-22#1011335 << 'multichan' is already there -- erry net is 'channel'
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: keeping peers within dunbar is one thing, but constraining peers and +l2 to the dunbar is another entirely
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: if wanted to create pestnet for users of blatta, to discuss testing and working on blatta, i.e. #blatta, at this moment would need to cp blatta, modify, re-key, open new port, port forward, etc.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: perhaps this is a misconception arising because of the current divide between station and client, if so, please feel free to clarify
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: if u think about wot as an atempt to create explicit system mirroring meatspace relatnioships
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: a pestnet would then be the mirror of a group of ppl within earshot of eachother (for larger nets will also depend on ur wotness to them)
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: a pest direct mesage exchange would then be the mirror of 2 ppl moving away from the group
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: either to have privat comversation or to discuss somthing else than vat big group is tlaking about at the moment
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: somtimes it makes sense in meatspace that >2 ppl move away from group in this way
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: a irc channel has secret flag to distinguish between those 2 use cases
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: whether a perfect miror of a meatspace mechanism is the desired goal can be debated
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: or maybe it is desirabl, but theres a tradeoff with complexity, so theres some optimal balancing point
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-26#1011614 << In a pest the process is a corrospondence (private msg) with each of those individuals then above
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-08-26 04:26:32 jonsykkel: a irc channel has secret flag to distinguish between those 2 use cases
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-08-26 04:04:19 crtdaydreams[jonsykkel|awt]: if wanted to create pestnet for users of blatta, to discuss testing and working on blatta, i.e. #blatta, at this moment would need to cp blatta, modify, re-key, open new port, port forward, etc.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: Mebbe I've misconstrued the term "Multichan" with "Multinet"
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: It seems that could be the source of confusion here.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform] refers to the capacity to have one pestron handle multiple pestnets
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: either that or blatta, smalpest et al already support management of multiple nets and I've missed that feature entirely
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: but if u keep same port, same keys etc is it then multi nets
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: jonsykkel: atm can already have multiple keys for the same user in the wot
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: not much of an extension to designate the use of a particular key to a particular network
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: ryte, but purpose of that afaik is only to allow for rekeying without posibility of losing peertivity
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: (in case station crashes during rekey and changes commited to disk on one end but not the other)
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: canot spek for blata but smalpest indeed only single net single irc socket per proces
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: ok, thanks for clarifying that
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: i.e. atm l2+ nick conflict problem virtually non-extant, as no implmentations support l2+!
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: nah l2+ is supported through hearsay
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: guy[relayer1|relayer2...] etc
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: l2 being (set-difference peers-of-your-peers your-peers)
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: (and excluding urself)
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: (or are you in ur own l2? philosophical nugget to chew on for u gyse)
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform] is unaware of any two people here peered with two different bobs as only could exist in an impersonator scenario opposed to multinet collisions
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: atm would see both bobs in #pest, as if in a different net would be running on a different process and therefore unrelated #pest
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform] begins to wonder which jonsykkel is peered with o_O
PeterL[asciilifeform]: signpost: I seem to remember one time you pasted a job offer letter into the chat?
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: also, signpost, best use-case I can see of your pest dns / filesharing would be the decentralization of the deedbot wot itself, i.e. pgp keys & ratings etc. distributed across pest
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform] wonders if that constitutes as railing an ak
PeterL[asciilifeform]: no, it had come up before as a useful addition
PeterL[asciilifeform]: crtdaydreams: presuambly when you initiated the peering with each person it involved passing a key through gpg, so you should know who all your direct peers are
PeterL[asciilifeform]: jonsykkel: you are defined as being your own L0, and the L# is the shortest path to each node, so therefore you are not in your L2
PeterL[asciilifeform]: the pest spec does support dm-ing multiple people (sending the same message as a dm to each), but I don't think this is implemented yet (?) and I don't think my IRC clients knows how to do that anyway
PeterL[asciilifeform]: once that gets implemented, you could have your >2 person sidechat using multi-person dm's
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-08-26 04:26:29 jonsykkel: somtimes it makes sense in meatspace that >2 ppl move away from group in this way
PeterL[asciilifeform]: and once you get the various networks set up, it is simple enough to have one client point at multiple pest-nets, like how my client lets me connect both here and to dulapnet at the same time.
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: PeterL: the elegance of ur definition is compelling, but i can find no historical president of anyone refering to themselves as their l0, which indicates its not in colloquial use at least
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: ur client could dm multi ppl, but not sure how u would tell the others to display these in same window and multidm the same ppl without clunky manual "operation of ak" or changes in spec
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: (not arguing for this 2 be clear, dont have any strong opinions on it. was just thinking out loud to begin with)
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: ^ in similar vein, and trying to clarify ideas
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: dunno vat a good interface for such temporary sidechat could look like anyway
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: at least have a stronk distaste for shitcord style "250 permanent channels for discussing slightly diffrent stuffs" with associated autistic noises that appear if u "use channel wrong"
PeterL[asciilifeform]: jonsykkel: think of the L# as the minimum number of hops to receive a message. If I generate a message, 0 hops are needed. A message from my L1 will have at least 1 hop, a message from my L2 will have at least 2 hops, etc.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: jonsykkel: wasn't suggesting sidechat, nor neuron activation bing bong sounds for chimps
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform] sure as hell hopes that instances will not go beyond a taskbar highlight for dms/mentions only
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: s/instances/implementations
PeterL[asciilifeform]: crtdadreams: shouldn't the level of notification just be a setting in your client?
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: PeterL: ofc, but I hold the expectation that the line between client and station will eventually be blurred, as aforementioned the irc frontend is temporary for the lack of time to write an effective gui, that and all available gui stacks appear to be shit
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: whether or not the udp listening socket remains daemonized in a final form would be entirely up to implementation I would expect
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: crtdaydreams: i meant the noises coming from the inhabitants of this particular type of sewer. "pls take this discussion to #john_deere_tractor, this is #tractor general"
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: jonsykkel: dickscord moderator moment
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: the #blatta example I used earlier was purely for illustrative purposes, but I get what you mean
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: admittedly I have a dickscord toilet acc, deleted acc at one point, couldn't contact anyone and wasn't apart of #a at the time, lived on burner accs for a while (only ever use webshit interface), eventually just caved in and made another acc. it's a love-hate relationship.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: it's pretty much the "uh but all muh friends use it" excuse
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: inb4 need new frens; yeh fair enuff.
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: have some old budys i spek to there too, and i can feel the jscancer taking years off my life evry time open tab
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: technologically inept frens is a real problem
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: the biggest filter to pest lol
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: managed to convince one guy to join me on XMPP
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: was great initially, but sorta drifted since, whether product of platform or project, dunno to this day
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: similar excuse of convenience
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: thankfully avoided the cesspools mentioned above, pretty much comms for people I know AFK
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: gtg, nite jonsykkel
awt[asciilifeform]: Initial versions of blatta indeed supported channels. Message body included IRC formatting.
phf[asciilifeform]: i think maybe multinet is the only way to do multichannel with pest
asciilifeform: phf: afaik yes. (and was asciilifeform's orig. notion re how 'channels' oughta work)
asciilifeform: part of asciilifeform's rationale was 'it is lulzy to have dozen channels when you have 6 d00dz' but moar generally imho irc-style channels are an abstraction that glues very poorly ~on top of~ pestnet mechanics, with schisms/mergers/gags etc
phf[asciilifeform]: yeah, dm's don't have same failover mechanisms, which come from not support >l1 altogether. but once you start baking that for multichannel you run into custodianship issues, etc
phf[asciilifeform]: presumably you can add some kind protocol for establishing new pestnets from inside pestnet.
signpost[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-26#1011642 << doubt it; I was self-employed for a decade.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-08-26 06:25:12 PeterL: signpost: I seem to remember one time you pasted a job offer letter into the chat?
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-08-26 06:28:15 crtdaydreams[jonsykkel|awt|signpost]: also, signpost, best use-case I can see of your pest dns / filesharing would be the decentralization of the deedbot wot itself, i.e. pgp keys & ratings etc. distributed across pest
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-07-15 19:45:41 phf[billymg|signpost]: i'm so far designing my pest to keep the packets indefinitely. considering that the whole of tmsr, including that utterly pointless b-a ancient history, was about 450mb in memory. from that perspective if things like rating become simply some form of structured pronounce
awt[asciilifeform]: The job offer was ben_vulpes I think
signpost[asciilifeform]: guess I could've been sending one out tbh, but I can't find the residue of that particular embarassment in my noggin.
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