diana_coman: thimbronion: how's the data collection going?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-17 12:59:57 thimbronion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-17#1006708 << is the idea here to set up a cloud instance with a bouncer on it maybe per network, then manually list and join all channels on the network and just take advantage of znc's built in logging?
ossabot: (trilema) 2019-10-18 mp_en_viaje: [10:24:32] Hey Ahnberg I'm coming from TMSR (http://logs.ossasepia.net). << wtf is wrong with this guy ?
diana_coman: thimbronion: so get the data but stay off talking to them.
thimbronion: diana_coman: right in the middle of something but 1) updated post to fix escaping problem with nicks, 2) won't talk to anyone 3) I was unable to get started on collecting the data.
diana_coman: I see; aite.
thimbronion: diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-10-18#1946298 What is my status on the IRC Project now?
ossabot: (trilema) 2019-10-18 mp_en_viaje: but he's certainly made it more difficult for anyone coming after him. which is the exact fucking opposite of helping.
diana_coman: thimbronion: you are certainly off talking to them so it's not going to be your project, no; trouble is that you supposedly wanted precisely to communicate re china too but you have big problems exactly there.
thimbronion: diana_coman: indeed that is the necessary conclusion.
diana_coman: thimbronion: until you seriously fix the communication, the only option open is to be very useful doing tech jobs for people that can communicate.
thimbronion: diana_coman: I see. Well my poor communication skills have gotten me into a lot of trouble in life.
thimbronion: diana_coman: and I don't enjoy tech work all that much. I would really prefer to work on fixing my communication skills.
diana_coman: thimbronion: if it's just about preference, it's unlikely to get fixed in any reasonable time frame; it's the sort of thing that needs to be about "I can't fucking stand this anymore and we'll do WHATEVER it takes to fix it"
diana_coman: thimbronion: btw, is this why you don't get your own clients for that consulting ?
thimbronion: diana_coman: yes it is.
diana_coman: it's pretty much from *there* that it has to change; or even closer at home for you; this is the sort of thing for which if you were here I'd just send you *every day* to chat up random people until that first basic bit works at least acceptable.
thimbronion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-18#1006847 << I see what you mean here.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-18 12:08:06 diana_coman: thimbronion: if it's just about preference, it's unlikely to get fixed in any reasonable time frame; it's the sort of thing that needs to be about "I can't fucking stand this anymore and we'll do WHATEVER it takes to fix it"
diana_coman: that "we'll" was meant to be "will" above.
diana_coman: thimbronion: say something.
thimbronion: diana_coman: I have a lot of feelings right now, but not many thoughts.
diana_coman: thimbronion: I see; trace those feelings back to source to get thoughts; and don't act on them feelings.
thimbronion: diana_coman: Can you tell me ideally how the conversations should have gone?
diana_coman: thimbronion: for that matter you know, you should probably just plan a trip to china, invite that Mia for some meal, talk to some people there; that http://thimbron.com/2019/10/a-bitcoin-missionary-in-china/ sounds just about as painful as the networks talk, the same sort.
thimbronion: diana_coman: it's weirdly easier for me to talk to people in a foreign language.
diana_coman: thimbronion: see http://thimbron.com/2019/10/espernet-2nd-chance/ ; the core of talking to *someone* is to actually engage with them personally for the duration of that conversation
diana_coman: look back through all the logs here: am I just spitting out same thing to everyone and expect they'll magically get it or what?
diana_coman: thimbronion: fwiw that "easier in a foreign language" points out to some very repressed home-culture/young interactions really.
thimbronion: diana_coman: no you respond to exactly what people say.
diana_coman: thimbronion: and even any starter I say is made specifically to that person too for as long as there is a clear person; look back to my first comment on your blog if nothing else; if it's not a person, the next discernible thing (eg the group, the chan, the network, the site, whatevers)
thimbronion: diana_coman: I had been thinking of visiting China this coming Summer to meet in person the contacts I would have made by that point.
thimbronion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-18#1006864 << this makes sense
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-18 12:38:28 diana_coman: thimbronion: and even any starter I say is made specifically to that person too for as long as there is a clear person; look back to my first comment on your blog if nothing else; if it's not a person, the next discernible thing (eg the group, the chan, the network, the site, whatevers)
thimbronion: diana_coman: I can submit my review by Sunday. But at this point I have no idea what to write for my plan.
diana_coman: thimbronion: leave both review and plan for when you get back; you clearly need more time to think this through and the review itself should benefit from giving it more thought; but you do need to think of it, it's not going to be disconnect-holidays.
diana_coman: thimbronion: what is your plan re blog+here while on holidays anyway?
thimbronion: diana_coman: Re: blog I was planning to take and post some pics. I wasn't planning on doing or saying anything in here during the trip.
diana_coman: thimbronion: blog is fine but not just pics please; talk to people there, it's holidays + relaxed anyway so it might even help to get over some hangups
thimbronion: diana_coman: I want to be clear on what hangups I might have. For example, I'm not a shut in. I talk to people around my office (when I'm there), I talk to my local chinese contact a lot. Last time I went to CR I talked to a LOT of people - girls, uber drivers, random americans. Friendly chitchat is no problem whatsoever.
thimbronion: diana_coman: had this fun situation at the Arenal hot springs where I was talking in Japanese with some Japanese tourists, then talking in spanish with a mexican girl, then going back to english for the American girl. It was great fun.
diana_coman: thimbronion: that was the initial idea and why you got the talk to networks project - that you actually *are fine* talking to people; but obviously not and now the only possible suspicion from above is that you are "fine" for as long as it's literally generic chitchat ie exactly *not* quite engaging specifically with someone.
diana_coman: and yes, getting drunk on multiple languages is a thing too.
thimbronion: diana_coman: I think my problem is with conflict.
thimbronion: diana_coman: wasn't even drinking! (until like the very end)
diana_coman: thimbronion: no, I know; I said getting drunk *on* multiple languages; no drinks required, no, just the same resulting happy diziness, lolz; then again, it's even better if drinks + 4 languages, after a while it's just hysterical, but let's get back to what you say your problem is.
diana_coman: thimbronion: how is it "conflict" with your potential clients?
thimbronion: diana_coman: I don't think it's conflict. I can't actually think of a time where I've done anything more than ping previous co-workers to see if they know about any work.
thimbronion: In the IRC chats, I perceived the conflict as being them wanting me to fill out the form, and me wanting to say no I'm not going to do that.
thimbronion: Also the conflict of my *trying to get somebody else to do something*.
diana_coman: thimbronion: re irc chats the problem starts earlier than that anyway; and at any rate, that's a rather weird definition of conflict.
diana_coman: thimbronion: lolz, do you imagine you'll *force* people to do something they don't want to, purely through a computer screen?
thimbronion: diana_coman: I don't imagine I'll force, no.
diana_coman: (also: that is most pointedly NOT diplomacy so wtf are you mixing there, on one hand imagining conflict and on the other hand claiming diplomacy)
diana_coman: so then what conflict? the whole point is exactly to engage with them so that they *want* to do the sensible thing; if they are at all capable of being sensible, sure, but the attempt has to be done to even determine that.
thimbronion: diana_coman: So maybe I could have had a chat with them about the future of IRC. Like, "Do you see where it's going? You value it don't you? Then you must do X"
diana_coman: thimbronion: ugh, no; that is ~chinese article,lolz.
diana_coman: you are there exactly like that chinese guy "buy mah btc cause future, why won't you"
thimbronion: Yes, I think I am.
diana_coman: thimbronion: how do those guy's attempts seem to you, by the way?
thimbronion: Autistic
diana_coman: quite.
diana_coman: thimbronion: what you talk to them about in first instance is *themselves*
thimbronion: The first time I ever found someone that actually listened to what people said was when I started to Stefan Molyneux. Actually that happened about the same time I started reading the logs and realizing, when I tried to say something in there, that I was not responding to what people actually said.
diana_coman: obv, for that you need first to be able and take the time/put in the effort to figure out something about who and how they are.
thimbronion: diana_coman: yes I see I did not do that.
diana_coman: what's this stefan molyneux?
thimbronion: Podcaster/Youtuber, mentioned in #bitcoin-assets a few times. "Biggest Philosophy Show in the World" is how he would describe what he does. For many years he took call-ins and worked through peoples problems with them.
diana_coman: 'dat title misses the "how to be happy and fulfilled in 10 easy steps"
thimbronion: diana_coman: Ah self help?
diana_coman: thimbronion: yeah but with the result of helping especially the talker; there is also this "listening to people" that is done (and done well at that) traditionally by fortune tellers and the like; I suppose in the US it might be the self-helpers that fill the role; but at any rate, yes, ~any successful show that gets people calling to talk and talk means that the person doing it is at least good at telling people what they want to hear.
diana_coman: there's a difference though between telling them what they want to hear (and they'll come in crowds to listen to THAT) and getting them to actually hear what they need rather than what they want.
thimbronion: diana_coman: I don't think he did too much of that. For example, frequently told women complaining about their husbands that the problem lies largely with them. Each call starts with him getting to know the person, going over their childhood. Everything proceeds from there.
diana_coman: in fairness and on second pass, I suppose "biggest philosophy show in the world" fits better the "i fucking love science" than the self-help.
diana_coman: thimbronion: that's a. stock answer, not personal b. actually what at least *some* women absolutely want to hear c. exactly priest style "come and confess your sins and unload your troubles, I have advice "
diana_coman: do realise that the format and hour and everything already makes a selection of participants
thimbronion: diana_coman: His show would last sometimes 4 hours. Number of callers varied depending on how long it took to get to the root of the problem.
thimbronion: diana_coman: I can see c.
diana_coman: thimbronion: good for them if it also worked.
thimbronion: Wrt a) I'm generalizing and his criticisms were specifc and based on the caller's previous statements.
thimbronion: b. I can believe.
diana_coman: thimbronion: btw if indeed first time experiencing actual human conversation, it's not much wonder you find it difficult in your native language; but how the fuck is that even possible, where /in what sort of thing did you grow up to never have had someone actually talking *to you*?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-18 13:21:44 thimbronion: The first time I ever found someone that actually listened to what people said was when I started to Stefan Molyneux. Actually that happened about the same time I started reading the logs and realizing, when I tried to say something in there, that I was not responding to what people actually said.
diana_coman: I suppose it's worth stating explicitly also the difference between talking *to* someone and talking *at* someone: the first case involves that someone; the second just uses the someone as direction of some sounds/words.
thimbronion: diana_coman: Hm. Parents divorced, two adopted sisters much older and with lots of problems. Moved schools almost yearly from age 7. I can recall *very* few conversations between my parents, who are divorced. Lots of conversations *about* things/history with my dad. My mom did not talk much, now that I think about it.
thimbronion: diana_coman: They both definitely have problems saying what they actually think.
thimbronion: diana_coman: Also scandinavian background if that helps explain things a little.
diana_coman: the surname certainly made me think -> scandinavian; but at any rate, the past is what it is; the q is what are you going to do for the future.
thimbronion: diana_coman: I don't know. Like you said, I need to take some times to think things over. I do not want to act rashly, or give up too easily.
diana_coman: thimbronion: all right.
whaack: diana_coman: There are currently no footnotes on younghands, correct?
diana_coman: whaack: hm, that's possible; I'll look at it some time this weekend.
whaack: okay I will just put (n) in the text and a (n) with the footnote at the bottom for now.
jfw: With 4 hours left I'm not certain I can make my ETA for first post. I will proceed as if I must, because if I don't and miss, I won't know whether I could have.
diana_coman: jfw: good luck!
jfw: ty!