lobbes: re: not asking for help. I fell into this trap at the start of my 'professional' career, and slowly have been learning the folly of this method throughout the entire scope of my life (be it saltmines, tmsr, sex life, buying fruit, what-have-you)
lobbes: there's a difference between someone who is incapable of doing something for themselves, and someone who asks for help
lobbes: Also, of course, it matters *who* you are asking for help from. And how you reason and structure your questions (to go back to diana_coman's "fertile soil" point). Asking smartly, I guess, with specifics.
lobbes: more importantly, through communication in this way you get to expose your true self through the critical eye of others (hopefully human others, and not orcs, yes)
lobbes: which only makes you... stronger on your own!
lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-02#1000981 << I meant to come back and answer this, but diana_coman put it perfectly imo :)
ericbot: Logged on 2019-09-02 13:26:29 diana_coman: that's pretty much what lobbes was saying re "excel jokey" http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-29#1000828
ossabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 23:32:46 lobbes: very glad to be free of that work. It was mentally stimulating, but my job now as an "excel jockey" consumes a good % less of my time
lobbes: In other words, my current saltmine work gives me ~0 intellectual stimulation nor meaning in my life, but more importantly I *do not expect* it to
lobbes: Roughly all of my meaning and intellectual stimulation right now comes from my tmsr work (and the +ev effects that my interaction with actual humans has had on my personal life as well)
lobbes: Sure, I tolerate my saltmine work just fine and it pays my bills to my satisfaction, but more importantly it also does not suck too much of my precious time. Time that'd I'd rather allocate toward activities I *do* expect value and meaning from
diana_coman: !o uptime
ossabot: diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 4d 9h 19m
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-05#1001375 - why are you uncomfortable with being right?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-05 18:52:48 shrysr: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-05#1001366 yea..i know what you mean, abt my own mishandling and agree. i guess it is a thin line for me. I've been uncomfortably right many times, though I do force myself to think i'm wrong and have no right to classify orcs/ppl like this or dont even know enough to do so accurately anyway... i guess I usually test the waters or learn enough simply by
diana_coman: and you absolutely have *the obligation* to classify what you meet as best you can!
diana_coman: the idea that you "shouldn't classify" is precisely http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-07-20#999277
ossabot: Logged on 2019-07-20 15:49:00 diana_coman: basically you are not cutting off your dick, just shaving/trimming bits off, lol
diana_coman: sure, you'd better get it right, or else; absolutely.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-05#1001379 - yes, you need to learn to talk to ~everyone and anyone, certainly; not in the same way, nor "without classifying" or any other such nonsense (quite on the contrary), but talk you must.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-05 18:52:54 shrysr: was dealing with customers directly..lol. One 'less important reason' - i got out of R&D (1st salt mine) so that I wd also force myself to *interact* on a much bigger scale. The good thing is that i recognise the weakness... the bad thing is that the more i 'learn abt myself' or any subject - the more alienated i seem to get from most. like sort of improving - but still slipping.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-05#1001381 - lmao; are you asking me to set you some proper penance here?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-05 19:08:29 shrysr: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-05#1001372 i agree with the definition or distinction - but i guess I viewed it also as a penance of sorts. tougher in a holistic sense -- more disciplined, more self-reliant, physically more fit (eat enemies brains), to 'fully feel the pain' and thus the value of getting a car for eg....and i did have to stop and get a car - it was freakin cold lol - more
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-05#1001383 - that is *also* something one can learn! talking of "getting tough" and growin' and all that.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-05 19:08:31 shrysr: importantly - i cdnt walk on the ice.
diana_coman: but yeah, in order to learn how to walk on ice you needed to ...ask someone able to teach you or at least show you
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-05#1001396 - yes, slavery is best cure for vanity among other ills though if you actually go for that, go for better masters than the accidental provincial manager.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-05 20:35:54 shrysr: started slavery. I've generally been able to detect it (atleast in recent years) and course correct. Some brusque statements/or silence itself is mistaken for vanity/arrogance by orcs - however i think i dont ask for help - not because i consider myself superior - the focus is more about 'becoming' capable to handle everything thrown at me without crying for help... there are situations when its absolutely
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-05#1001397 - until you prove you are actually able to expose the full tree of your "thinking" and follow it *both ways* without jumps, you can't claim or rely on your "thinking"; and in this sort of situations specifically, man is *made* to lie to himself.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-05 20:35:56 shrysr: clear help is needed. But in many other situations it goes - if I can do it maself taking some extra effort/stress whatever - then I shd. and there are small lateral benefits/learning usually in doing so. And then I also get to avoid social interaction in the process too.. lol. My thinking is that it is not vanity...
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-06#1001400 - this for sure and even more importantly realising that the onus is on yourself to make sense of the answer(s) given as they are effectively knowledge gifted; specifically, if you don't understand/it doesn't make sense, you may ask yes but *after* you tried and failed to integrate the new knowledge
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-06 01:01:38 lobbes: Also, of course, it matters *who* you are asking for help from. And how you reason and structure your questions (to go back to diana_coman's "fertile soil" point). Asking smartly, I guess, with specifics.
diana_coman: ie the question starts at the very least with exposing what /how you tried to make sense of the answer; and implicitly at least - depending on the case, explicitly might be *needed* - an admission of your own failure to make sense of it
diana_coman: shrysr: btw, the above is the spelled-out explanation of http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-04#1001199
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-04 15:44:19 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-04#1001197 - ftr note that you are never in a position to "spare" what someone who says when they have proven before to such degree that they know what they are talking about; that is just plain silly.
diana_coman: shrysr: there are already lots of questions I asked you in those logs and you never answered; that adds a pile of owed answers to your 15th Sept deadline; and it's a hard deadline, let me make that as clear as ..the ice you couldn't walk on, I suppose.
diana_coman: !o uptime
ossabot: diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 4d 14h 59m
diana_coman: !e uptime
ericbot: diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 1d 5h 49m
diana_coman: hm, lobbes does ^ seem correct to you?
lobbes: diana_coman: I was about to say 'yes' until I looked up in my chat buffer and realized my bot had disconnected O_o. Will have to investigate later tonight when I get home
lobbes: ty for the heads up
diana_coman: np
shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-06#1001421 i believe the unanswered Q of yesterday was how i reached the choice of data science, and whether i've been at it for 1+ years already. well that prompted another 'essay' - need to include some more details to finish doing that right now.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-06 03:42:12 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-05#1001383 - that is *also* something one can learn! talking of "getting tough" and growin' and all that.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-05 19:08:31 shrysr: importantly - i cdnt walk on the ice.
shrysr: lol wrong link. http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-06#1001433
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-06 04:03:32 diana_coman: shrysr: there are already lots of questions I asked you in those logs and you never answered; that adds a pile of owed answers to your 15th Sept deadline; and it's a hard deadline, let me make that as clear as ..the ice you couldn't walk on, I suppose.
diana_coman: morning shrysr ; plenty of time still until 15th sept; but in the spirit of http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-06#1001428 I would actually go through the logs if I were you...
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-06 04:10:26 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-06#1001400 - this for sure and even more importantly realising that the onus is on yourself to make sense of the answer(s) given as they are effectively knowledge gifted; specifically, if you don't understand/it doesn't make sense, you may ask yes but *after* you tried and failed to integrate the new knowledge
shrysr: btw: while i get the idea of asking somebody to teach me to walk on ice: there were other assessments in that particular case - cars were often slipping around... it wd be a tragedy to get plowed into while learning to walk on the ice. the winds here really *blow*...i'd be grinning on the road walking my own footprints from prev journey trying to stay in a straight line but the risk outweighed the
shrysr: pleasure. by then i was getting the sense I needed to get out - and i obv needed a car to get to interviews when that properly 'happened'. I had/have 2 pairs of jeans - cdnt balance them getting too dirty versus laundry frequency... my boots were worn.. overall - getting a car solved more problems.
diana_coman: I'm sure it did, yes.
diana_coman: the point was not at all "could have solved it without a car", no; you tend to jump on the most obvious/what irks you and... miss or at least not mention at all the actual point.
diana_coman: ftr (and in memory of an actual real teacher I once had): a tragedy is not what you think it is!!
diana_coman: misfortune yes; end of game, yes; terrible accident, yes; tragedy however, no.
shrysr: :D ok
shrysr: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-06#1001411 i believe out of false emotions and a confusion of 'morals/ethics'. i feel sorry for having exposed them in my mind... get wrongly get sucked into 'feeling' that knowing them is fine - however knowing them in order to get my shit done is manipulation... knowing them and not telling them i know is 'cheating' and lying
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-06 03:50:47 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-05#1001375 - why are you uncomfortable with being right?
shrysr: i knw its not my job to change them... what they are is what they are because of them, not me. but i 'feel' guilty... as in if somebody fucked me up on my flaws (its my fault) - but what if they told me / corrected me instead of fucking me up for their profit? sure i hopefully learn in the process - but there been a 'sense' that overall - manipulation and lying and etc just makes the world a worse place.
diana_coman: shrysr: do you realise you jump there from "being right" ie evaluating correctly to "lying" ?
diana_coman: overall it sounds like a lot of confusion for sure.
shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-06#1001399 yes... i need to get better at recognising the distinction.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-06 00:46:00 lobbes: there's a difference between someone who is incapable of doing something for themselves, and someone who asks for help
shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-06#1001459 yes. its not something i've resolved satisfactorily ever. even if i try to go by an 'evidence'/observation based assessment to be right..(and later evidence (results of a strategy) proves the 'theory' right in many cases).. i still disengage at some point due to the confusion whether i'm being 'bad'..or orcish. I don't mind being ruthless with
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-06 12:11:45 diana_coman: shrysr: do you realise you jump there from "being right" ie evaluating correctly to "lying" ?
shrysr: myself - but can i be ruthless in extracting what I need from ppl and not cause em any harm? Perhaps a balance of kindness is required?...then i guess i go overboard in balancing this, see-sawing between 'non-emotion' based approach and with emotions with a deluded sense of being a 'good d00d'. i.e i take it upon myself for a 'complex work around' and that has not resulted in distilled ground rules or
shrysr: principles and hence the confusion is always there like a spore waiting to multiply.
diana_coman: shrysr: sounds like an honest and quite clear account, so not a bad start to work with; fwiw it doesn't have to be that way, no.
shrysr: diana_coman: how can I make it - not be that way?
diana_coman: shrysr: there's a lot of learning but it starts with clarifying notions really; still, there is time for that and atm you have enough to do by the 15th really so I won't add to that pile.
shrysr: http://s.ragavan.co/2019/09/how-did-i-choose-data-science/ to explain how it was 'found' and deemed suitable.
shrysr: diana_coman: ^ this shd be more aligned with the 'want' as the earlier article was.. not.