#ossasepia | 2019-08-25

diana_coman: jmsb hello, hang around a bit and it might happen

diana_coman: shrysr_: how's the weekly report coming out?

shrysr_: diana_coman: working on it. I'm stuck deciphering the vdiff code on CH's article and was hoping to complete atleast that before posting.. I'm also not yet clear on signatures (the hash part, where the convo trailed off in #gnupg). Luckily, before the redirect of focus - i had some progress on the other tasks.

diana_coman: shrysr_: do note that CH's article is relatively old so possibly not fully up to date.

diana_coman: and the report is just that: a report of what actually got done/happened.

asciilifeform: shrysr_: i wrote that v & vdiff -- so dun hesitate to ask , if yer stuck

shrysr_: yes. My plan is to post with the questions / points where i am stuck so you / Stan can help me... I would really like to crack it myself... but i'm mostly tired with the salt mine shit sucking my time energy this week.... it shd get okay once I have the base stuff up.

shrysr_: the steam lisp article has sort of stuck with me.... its not like the idea of the story was new... but i cd understand what was meant abt the 'mistake', and i think i see what asciilifeform meant about software. I think that article also had a reference to the QWERTY keyboard's popularity story, which has also stuck. I was reflecting that while I recognised it.... as an end user - i was more focused on

shrysr_: figuring out ways around it... and I did not reflect about Why the fuck the problem was there in the first place.

asciilifeform: shrysr_: typically, if you want actual solution to $problem, yer stuck finding out 'why was there in the first place'

asciilifeform: shrysr_: --- otherwise you will end up with spackle .

diana_coman: the above being said, you need to know how to *choose* what problems to solve at a given time or otherwise you risk not doing anything at all or getting overwhelmed too.

shrysr_: asciilifeform: right! spackle.. i get that. hehe. and that actually sucks.

shrysr_: diana_coman: yes... I've been consciously trying to do so. I guess any progress on the tasks in the last 2 weeks is because i'm starting to make relatively better choices. Consciously forcing myself to re-read has also helped a lot... in combination with smaller steps and stopping myself to want to get it all in a single go all the time.

diana_coman: shrysr_: realise that the key to getting to do "what you want/like" is simply to learn first to have...better "likes". That's the core of the issue.

shrysr_: you mean the liking to get it in a single shot ?

diana_coman: basically it takes a whole lot of focused work *before* you can trust your "likes"

diana_coman: no

diana_coman: I mean the original "I want to do just what I like/enjoy" first of all

diana_coman: but it's also true that as you know more/get better at various things, you will also get more faster so *some* may end up as "single shot"

diana_coman: anyway: why the fixation on "in a single shot"?

diana_coman: faster and deeper*

shrysr_: I thought about that in an effort to remove the root cause. i think it started in earnest with my last prep for the GRE when i was still applying for PhD's some years ago. I think i started believing that I HAD to be Able to do so if i was ever gonna do anything worthwhile... I guess there is a terrible feeling of inadequacy in me no matter what I do, and while I am not entirely misguided about my

shrysr_: capability and the fact that I have done some good things --- i am plagued by a sense of failure in terms of not being able to make a 'real' impact and not getting some things I really wanted.. perhaps like that PhD (made worse by rejecting the one offer I did get)... struggling to get EACH job i've got so far... Maybe the genesis goes back further.. I rem a chat with my aerodynamics prof (who was

shrysr_: awesome!) during my masters, where he suddenly asked me if I was the type who was never happy no matter what. we were discussing how I would know if i was making progress... and i said yes to his questions and then said but wtf thats like a scratch on the surface. I remember being quite surprised. Maybe I'm just afraid that if i dont - it means I am a dumbass and might as well kill myself.

diana_coman: shrysr_: there are quite a few things in there that seem conflated into a single one for no good reason.

diana_coman: let's try a bit of detangling:

diana_coman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-25#1000509 - a feeling of inadequacy can be a very helpful thing actually; but the conclusion you got there doesn't follow at all

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-25 17:31:33 shrysr_: I thought about that in an effort to remove the root cause. i think it started in earnest with my last prep for the GRE when i was still applying for PhD's some years ago. I think i started believing that I HAD to be Able to do so if i was ever gonna do anything worthwhile... I guess there is a terrible feeling of inadequacy in me no matter what I do, and while I am not entirely misguided about my

diana_coman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-25#1000510 - this sounds like your drive really and there's nothing wrong with it in itself i.e. yes, young people WANT TO MATTER, of course, what else.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-25 17:31:36 shrysr_: capability and the fact that I have done some good things --- i am plagued by a sense of failure in terms of not being able to make a 'real' impact and not getting some things I really wanted.. perhaps like that PhD (made worse by rejecting the one offer I did get)... struggling to get EACH job i've got so far... Maybe the genesis goes back further.. I rem a chat with my aerodynamics prof (who was

diana_coman: there is the relatively modern trouble of "can matter over night" impression + not allowed to actually matter in everyday environment because it's broken

diana_coman: combined those can quite make it terrible indeed but realise that 1. wanting to matter is normal and actually useful! 2. it's not going to happen overnight and moreover it's not about "getting anything and everything in one go"

diana_coman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-25#1000511 - looking always at what you could have done better/ improvement does NOT mean /need to mean that you are "never happy no matter what"

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-25 17:31:38 shrysr_: awesome!) during my masters, where he suddenly asked me if I was the type who was never happy no matter what. we were discussing how I would know if i was making progress... and i said yes to his questions and then said but wtf thats like a scratch on the surface. I remember being quite surprised. Maybe I'm just afraid that if i dont - it means I am a dumbass and might as well kill myself.

diana_coman: fwiw I had this sort of exchange as a student myself: me: wtf I was so stupid and did so poorly at X!!! prof: but most in the group did even worse!! me: even if plenty others were *even more stupid than me* it does not mean I wasn't an idiot!!

diana_coman: to make it clear: evaluating yourself objectively and falling constantly short of an ideal is a good way to get where you want i.e. to improve and matter; at the same time, you need to be aware of improvements too and to be happy for what you learnt even while you look at where you still got it wrong.

diana_coman: so keep your eyes on the ideal, sure, but don't deny your own improvements so far, either.

diana_coman: in fewer words: be happy but don't become content/complacent.

diana_coman: and ftr the blog and public, explicit record is precisely what helps you with the above since you can track the improvements.

diana_coman: finally, re "not getting some things I really wanted" - this can be a tough nut but the root cause there is that you... wanted the wrong things basically.

diana_coman: shrysr_: fwiw I don't think you had much struggle to get in here, had you?

diana_coman: "wrong" above means simply not fitting you/your *needs* at that moment.

diana_coman: actual needs, quite often different from "wants"

shrysr_: get in 'here' as in ?

diana_coman: as in my accepting to mentor you.

shrysr_: no, I guess not. that it happened still feels surreal at times with some doubt if i am good enough to be worthy of it.

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-25#1000510 << fwiw asciilifeform wasn't 100% cured of envying the academic types until worked, at length, with them (as a civilian) and saw close-up what their daily grind in fact consisted of (i.e. quite unlike the naive picture of 'blue sky research' where 'do what you want' )

diana_coman: shrysr_: focus on doing the best work you are able to and don't worry about that sort of evaluation - that's my call and therefore not your worry anymore.

diana_coman: asciilifeform: nowadays academia is anyway just another bureaucracy really so not much "academia" left in it.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'm aware, worked in several of the 'epicentres' of said bureaucracy

asciilifeform: even 1 time found myself sitting in the 9th circle of hell, usg's 'darpa'

diana_coman: at least 10+ years ago when I was in it, there was *still* way more scope for "do what you want" than in most industry jobs but the higher one went up the hierarchy the less of it essentially and anyway meanwhile from what I saw it only got worse.

diana_coman: heh, I never was that famous :D ; and moreover I refused to even answer google's invite for interview (most probably sent to all phd students that had published at that conference or something).

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i luckily avoided 'famous'

asciilifeform: met, however, scores of 'emeritus', 'tenure' types, who could ~on paper~ 'do what want' but in practice could only sit and doze off on committees, cuz by the time one reaches said rank, the productive years are ~gone

asciilifeform: sorta like in army, errybody wants to be a general ~like zhukov~ , who was general at 30, and not e.g. like voroshilov, who dozed off in politburo for last 20yrs of life

diana_coman: hm, that is a different failure mode; fwiw I remember having C.A. Hoare as teacher at a summer school and he was already not exactly young but still more active and alive than a lot of way younger other academics.

asciilifeform: modern-day bureaucracies dun like zhukovs, and they've mostly existed the stage consequently

asciilifeform: diana_coman: interesting.

asciilifeform blows dust off ancient vol. of hoare's 'functional prog.'

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i didn't have a live hoare. had however a summer under one r. sagdeev, ex chair of su space works. he married some ameri-princess 1/3 his age and ended up in usa. but by that time was just about ready for nursing home, so i have 0 to brag about re that episode.

diana_coman: aha; although he was actually super-approachable and genuinely interested in connecting, I was in too much awe to do much other than *listen*.

diana_coman: well, I can't say there something I have to brag re above - if anything, a missed chance on my part.

asciilifeform: generally by the time somebody is 'great academic'(tm) , is only fit for telling tales to grand-children

asciilifeform: just about errybody i ever met who had episode with 'greats'(tm)(r), all fit this pattern

asciilifeform: bureaucracy doesn't promote anyone to 'greats' until he's entirely 'harmless'

asciilifeform: google, microshit, et al have entire academi-nursinghomes fulla these types.

asciilifeform: they collectively sum to ~0.

diana_coman: asciilifeform: hm, maybe because he was - even admitedly - the "purely theoretic" type? in his own words that I can still hear as such, for their contrast to the obvious knowledge of his domain otherwise : "I am disgracefully ignorant of the real life"

asciilifeform: not even because 'theorists' but because decades of 'administrator' .

asciilifeform: it's ~exact equiv. of 'promoted to management' in soft. industry

diana_coman: ah, I got the impression he eschewed that, at least in part with precisely the above "excuse" .

asciilifeform: motion in the reverse direction is rare, but not unheard of. at the uni here, we had a fella who spent a decade as dean, and then demanded -- successfully -- to be made an ordinary practicing prof again.

diana_coman: ah, hm; based on my limited experience I thought it was everywhere that deans changed every 4 years or whatever other intervals; guess not, huh.

asciilifeform: nao teaches, iirc, thermodynamics, 1ce/week

diana_coman: 1001 models; iirc in France they even had 2 paths - one that included teaching and one that did not; I can't quite recall what they were called/ how did it work exactly but there was at least the option; then again, research grants and then "management" tend to eat a lot of "research" time anyway nowadays.

asciilifeform: in the cases asciilifeform personally witnessed -- it eats ~100%

asciilifeform worked -- as civilian, was drummed outta academia-proper for poor marks, from not giving enuff of a shit -- for succession of elderly academician types. all had quite unenviable life, consisting largely of cock-pulling-in-a-circle aka 'peer review' and grantsmanship, aka begging

diana_coman: well, they enjoyed tenure I suppose.

asciilifeform: 'enjoyed' like voroshilov enjoyed politburo.

diana_coman: dunno, there is no such thing as one-sided interaction; if they stay there, it quite follows they find it enjoyable enough, what can I say.

asciilifeform: 'stay' comes in 2 variant, 1 where 'enjoy enuff', other -- where legs w/ which to walk away -- atrophied .

diana_coman: really now; and mouths to shout with also atrophied and arms to hit with also atrophied and on and on but somehow there is still something there to "not like it but suffer greatly"

diana_coman: this sounds very much like "rezistenta prin cultura" to me#

asciilifeform: diana_coman: not specifically. just that when d00d is 80 y.o. and the spark of life long ago departed, he will tend to stay wherever he is.

asciilifeform: 'doesn't like' isn't even an applicable formulation. instead, vegetative existence, like oak.

diana_coman: well, retired, yes; but if "spark of life long ago departed" then there isn't all that much to talk about in the first place, what can one do.

asciilifeform: oak, will move, if someone gives enuff of a shit to dig it up and plant in new park. s. for instance was moved, in just such a way.

asciilifeform: ( by clinton et al, for no particularly useful purpose afaik )

diana_coman: sure, if passive then no agency and no "likes", no argument there.

asciilifeform: afaik it was part of a largely aimless orgy of 'let's remove anyffin of any prestige whatsoever from old corpse of sovok, even the oaks'

diana_coman: could at least retire though, in fairness, under pretty much any terms, from "you know best, it's your turn, let me be" to "don't want to have anything to do with you" and everything in between; not like 80 y.o. *has to* be part of shit.

asciilifeform: not all emigre academics ended in bureaucracy. some instead -- to drive taxi. or teach freshman chemistry to halfwit footballists. met also these.

diana_coman: but anyway, if living dead already, there's nobody there to talk about anymore essentially.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: in usa 'retire' typically is not any longer a thing. 'colt '45 retirement corporation.'

diana_coman: were the taxi drivers saner?

asciilifeform: not detectably.

asciilifeform: folx who were finely honed for world which then proceeded to disappear, will, i suspect, ~always register as at least mildly lunatic

asciilifeform: see also e.g.

snsabot: Logged on 2018-09-08 11:34:13 asciilifeform: sometimes ~entirely identical -- i recall reading of one physics d00d who was convinced that he will 'get rich' in nyc, selling... poetry

diana_coman: I have to admit I have trouble picturing this "can't retire anymore", possibly because of my thoroughly european background that included plenty of old people on no pension to speak of (100 euros/month in the best case) and still perfectly retired; some giving piano lessons to live if needed, others eating the bit they could plant on some poor soil, but anyways)

asciilifeform: diana_coman: the correct model is 1990s sovok. yes d00d gets 'pension', but after coupla yrs of inflation, it adds up to maybe 'eat cat food'

diana_coman: sure, see above

diana_coman: as I said: I know plenty of "no actual pension" but still happier to retire than to stay in there where they even perceived they simply don't ...belong.

asciilifeform: as for 'piano lesson', i know several folx who actually skipped straight to that stage in their 30s (didn't make it to actual academia, despite diplomas) and nao tutor flunking freshmen 7 days / wk for coupla bux / hr

diana_coman: well, at least not oaks, I'd count them for having a better deal despite what it might seem otherwise.

diana_coman: I suppose a different generation in the end, the difference stems more likely from there, simply.

asciilifeform: the operative bit is that none of asciilifeform's acquaintances see their pos as having 'deal', but as a pit into which they happened to fall in, and whatever attempts to climb out -- failed. diana_coman's pov where 'people have choice', i do not think is wrong as such, but to asciilifeform extremely 'martian', i do not anywhere in civilian life encounter people who perceive this 'choice'. they work in whatever work they were able

asciilifeform: to find.

diana_coman: that strikes me as a very interesting reversal of the usual image of americans-as-most-enterprising-individuals; then again, my actual knowledge of USA has always been extremely limited (and by now it's probably also very outdated).

asciilifeform: i know even people who 'took choice' -- after maths diploma -- of becoming hobo. nao their 'choice' consists of which alley to sleep inside.

shrysr_: lolz!!!

asciilifeform: diana_coman: 'don't spin the globe, you will not find' mark twain's usa on it.

asciilifeform never lived in twain's usa , only this 1.

diana_coman: asciilifeform: I didn't count my reading of mark twain's as knowledge of the USA, lolz! I did see Boston and I did interact with quite a few americans some years ago - that part was what I counted as my "extremely limited" knowledge.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: there is added vexation (esp. among emigres & potential emigres) because in initial stages of progression 'from prof to hobo' there is typically a phase of stockholm syndrome, where the 'patient' is convinced (and will loudly proclaim) that he is 'success'

diana_coman: fwiw by "interacted" I mean both over some years in Ro and otherwise abroad in various contexts; I suppose I count inevitably also the second-hand experience of my parents to some extent.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: ftr ( at least where asciilifeform has personally done time ) there are ~0 'americans' (in the born-in-usa sense) in academia -- at least sci/eng. ~100% emigres / children of same

asciilifeform: i've met ~0 , with the prominent exception of the maffs hobos

asciilifeform: solid wall of cn/in/kr/ex-sovok.

diana_coman: hm, as I said: quite likely totally outdated; fwiw my experience did not involve almost any cn/in/kr/ex-sovok (or at least not obviously so, I never actually checked specifically); anyways, I can easily see it as current situation.

asciilifeform: for all i know -- they're all in boston. did not do any time in boston.

diana_coman: lolz!

diana_coman: can be; the 2nd hand experience was Texas though (petroleum industry).

asciilifeform: trinque might know moar about what happens there.

diana_coman: I suspect it's not happening anymore; that part is the oldest indeed and it was some 20 years ago already.

diana_coman: shrysr_: how's then in New Jersey since I gather you actually know that part of the USA?

asciilifeform: diana_coman: to add a few brush strokes to the picture of usa -- and perhaps already you knew -- 1) most folx get ~0 'vacation'. they nominally get '2 wks' but is reserved in practice for illness ; 2) are paid just enuff to stay alive (and locate themselves within vicinity of the mines) , 2-3 missed weeks of pay means destitution .

asciilifeform: there is a reason you won't see many americans (of working age) 'hiking in the carpathians' etc

shrysr_: the time i spent in NJ was fleeting... 2-3 weeks at the most. spent a month in oklahoma ....2 years of remote dealing with americans in last salt mine. general impression of americans is that there is a very small % of the ppl who have brains and the rest are ridiculously dumb, and make up for inadequacy by being rude.

diana_coman: asciilifeform: fwiw I have some former uni colleagues who work (predictably i.e. specifically aimed for and did everything and anything needed for it) at microsoft and have plenty of vacation and money; I'm ready to admit they are probably exceptions overall/few out of the total population ofc.

asciilifeform: ( and , interestingly, 1+2 apply equally to janitor and to engineer who nominally paid 5x moar )

shrysr_: don't see canada to be terribly different in 2 years... but they are certainly not rude ppl. very polite.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i never did time at microshit, admittedly. the largest co. ever was in (excluding usg) was 'reuters', where 'princely'... 3 wks.

diana_coman: shrysr_: heh, politeness indeed to the point of apologizing when it's not their fault, that much I know, yes.

diana_coman: that being said, those microsoft-guys tend to complain re how kids are taught ("he's not stupid so he noticed how he can fool the test", "now I have to add X to teaching him at home too") but at the same time won't move because "there is nothing else that is just as intellectually interesting and paying such ridiculous amounts of money"

asciilifeform: diana_coman: also interestingly, the 'ridiculous moneys' evaporate pretty fast if you, say, want own flat near that microshit

asciilifeform: ( in the epicentre of the retardation, palo alto , a cockroach-infested 1 room flat goes for 5-6k u.s. )

diana_coman: asciilifeform: I admit I never had the stomach to engage them *that* much; fwiw I couldn't stand them during uni precisely for the very same microsoft-is-great-no-matter-what brown nosing basicly so what can I say.

asciilifeform: to work at microshit is, largely, its own punishment

diana_coman: so quite possibly that's true; and yes iirc at least one was/is in palo alto; I have no idea where/in what lives with wife (microsoft too) + kids.

asciilifeform: keep in mind that it is difficult to get truthful answers out of such folx, outside of a 'hanging upside-down and plugged into mains socket' setting

diana_coman: honestly, I'm not *that* interested to even ask; plenty of more useful things to do.

asciilifeform: the folx who belong being interested ( on acct of being about to jump into the pit ) generally aint, until too late, typically.

diana_coman: shrysr_: I hope you are not going to miss your deadline because of the convo here :D

asciilifeform: re 'folx in usa w/ plenty of money', admittedly i dun hang out with w. buffett . but also met people who ~think~ 'plenty of money' , and as a rule the 'plenty' can evaporate overnight ( break a leg; go a coupla months w/out work ; tax collector decides you didn't pay enuff ; 9000 other 'surprise' and 'poof' . )

diana_coman: that is probably the case i.e. not poof-proof

diana_coman: and now we have a new money-word: is your money poof-proof?

asciilifeform: aha, not even remotely 'proof', not even 'resistant' in the style of asciilifeform's dollar-store wristwatch in '92 being 'water resistant'

asciilifeform bbl : meat chores .