asciilifeform: meanwhile... (unless it's a gag?) : mp closes shop .
asciilifeform: 'In practical terms, I'll be de-admining deedbot, devoicing everyone and also updating the topic in #trilema, once I get around to it. While I do wish the best of luck with whatever they might be doing to anyone interested or involved, I don't intend to continue supporting anything in that vein...'
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: qntra fodder ^ by all rights
asciilifeform takes off hat.
verisimilitude: Well, there's now another good reason I don't regret my disinterest in that group.
verisimilitude: It doesn't feel as if I've submitted no messages here for weeks, but I suppose that's the case.
verisimilitude: I'm not certain how well you track my work, if at all, asciilifeform, but I've begun work on SHA224, SHA256, SHA384, and SHA512 not so lately. I expect I may have a Common Lisp implementation of the first two available and documented by today, and I'll then begin learning of the SHA3 family and planning my comprehensive design. If you're interested, I could discuss my already public APL implementation, though.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: in fact i read your www regularly. (didn't comment on account of lack of a comment mechanism, however)
feedbot: http://btc.info.gf/blog/trilema-announces-closure.html << btcinfo -- Trilema announces closure
feedbot: http://btc.info.gf/blog/title-on-this-line.html << btcinfo -- Title on this line
asciilifeform: lol shinohai
shinohai: xD
shinohai: Having fun morning with blog script, yet another Comcast outage left me behind this morning.
shinohai: Starlink, when? xD
asciilifeform: wassat?
shinohai: Starlink is Elon Musk's sat-based internet "for everyone!"
feedbot: http://btc.info.gf/blog/you-cannot-enter-the-same-river-twice.html << btcinfo -- You cannot enter the same river twice.
shinohai: y feedbot pushing old articles thru rss?
spyked: shinohai: are you by any chance changing the guid field in the feed items? feedbot identifies (new) entries by guid
spyked: also, it tends to "forget" feeds, i.e. it only keeps in sync with what's in the remote rss, so if the entry is added at a later time again, it will send notifications for it
spyked: *on the remote rss
shinohai: spyked: I was thinking the above template post hiccup may have caused my rss feed to spaz out.
spyked: hm. do you have any idea how the xml file has changed since that? it might help me debug
spyked: otherwise I can try to keep track of the changes as they occur, but I don't have scaffolding to support that at the moment.
shinohai: I think my blog-o-tron script caused it, I'm working on addition that inserts latest trb blocktime to post, and was using that version to publish with this morning. (Still needs a bit of debugging :P)
shinohai: So shouldn't push any more unwanted posts to bot, have switched back to old publisher.
asciilifeform: shinohai: incidentally seems that fella's pretty lively still for someone who 'closed shop'. so don't be so quick to bury him.
asciilifeform: ( recall how similarly 'closed' in aug. of '19 )
asciilifeform: or, hrm, july iirc
shinohai: That's why the "Lulz" tag is there, as a bell in case thing isn't dead. I would not in any way be surprised to see resurrection from "dead".
asciilifeform: meanwhile in other surprises from yet-other folx .
snsabot: (trilema) 2020-03-12 jfw: I confess I mostly run 'patch' by hand, but v.pl modified for keccak or any other supporting same should work.
asciilifeform wonders how many folx seekritly 'keyboard? i dun have one, i have two loose wires and teeth'
verisimilitude: That's good to know, asciilifeform. In any case, know I've rather recently updated this article.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: potentially interesting, but -- sadly i dun know apl
asciilifeform doesn't even own apl kbd , believe or not
verisimilitude: You should give it a learn; it's a nice language which can reduce program size by orders of magnitude. I don't use a special keyboard, using Emacs. If you want, I can recommend the books I read to learn it.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i tried 'j' at one point, long ago. iirc supposed to be rather like a latinized apl.
verisimilitude: It's for that reason I'm entirely uninterested in J, K, and Q.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: outta curiosity, what do you use as input device for these proggies ?
verisimilitude: With APL, you can look at the symbols and recall what they do, with only a vague recollection of what it is.
verisimilitude: You mean how would I feed in a large amount of data to this SHA256, say?
asciilifeform: no -- how do you write apl progs ?
verisimilitude: I use Emacs gnu-apl-mode with the APL-Z input method.
asciilifeform: (i.e. with a tom knight type kbd ? )
asciilifeform: aa
asciilifeform: so they aint actually so 'short' when writing, then..?
verisimilitude: It requires typing a period before a special symbol, but it's not as if there's many symbols to start with anyway. The most common symbols still tend to be ASCII, such as spaces, parenthesis, brackets, etc.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: what does e.g. 'z←((¯17↑y),¯17↓y)≠((¯19↑y),¯19↓y)≠(10⍴0),¯10↓y' look like when yer keying it in ?
asciilifeform: ( pretend yer irc console is emacs, show how one'd enter it )
verisimilitude: Alright.
verisimilitude: z.[((.217.yy),.217.uy).8((.219.yy),.219.uy).8(10.r0),.210.uy
asciilifeform: so... .[ is ← ; .2 : ¯ ; .y : ↑ ; .u : ↓ ; .8 : ≠ ;.r : ⍴ ?
verisimilitude: Yes; there's a gnu-apl-show-keyboard function if any of these are forgotten, also.
asciilifeform: seems a little arbitrary imho ( e.g. why not '!=' for ≠ ?) is it based on the historic ibm keyboard ?
verisimilitude: Much of this system is based on old IBM conventions, yes.
verisimilitude: It follows the placement of the true APL keyboards, which is nicer than pretending to write C, I'd think.
verisimilitude: I should point out, asciilifeform, that I don't get much practical use out of APL, and I usually verify that my programs work and then simply abandon them, but it's good for my mind, I believe.
asciilifeform: i admit that i never fully grasped the appeal of e.g. ← in place of := ( or e.g. <- ) and similar notations
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: right, but clearly you are apl aficionado, perhaps could shed light on how appeals
verisimilitude: I also know Forth, asciilifeform, but I use Forth not at all, really; despite this, Forth has had a good influence on my thinking of programming. Unlike Forth, I can stand to write complex APL programs, even if I don't bother with the far more clumsy machinery which would make it more useful, such as by allowing it to open files and whatnot.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: right, it so happens that i also rarely have occasion to use forth. but for instance i stole from it the evaluation mechanics, in 'peh'
verisimilitude: To give an example with my SHA1, the APL pad function is one line and much of it's unconditional, whereas the Common Lisp and Ada are both around thirty lines and used a rules-based approach to get the same result. Despite my effort, the APL remains by far the nicest.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: what i'm curious about, is what problem the expanded alphabet of apl is seen , by aficionados, to solve
asciilifeform: it still takes imho similar amt of effort to read, as if you expanded the magic chars to e.g. <- >- etc
verisimilitude: It's very useful for array manipulations, of course. You're simply transforming representations and if I can't tell how to progress, I can actually look at my keyboard to get an idea of which approach I should try next.
asciilifeform: how does the array manipulation require ← ↓ etc ?
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-03-12#1008697 <<< Here I thought asciilifeform invented `V` on back of napkin, but no this also was MP's work
snsabot: Logged on 2020-03-12 12:18:39 asciilifeform: meanwhile in other surprises from yet-other folx .
snsabot: (trilema) 2020-03-12 jfw: That I'm misusing the tool you invented and haven't fully tested a better process?
asciilifeform: shinohai: that's the other fella goin' into bootlick mode, mp even corrected him , lol
snsabot: (trilema) 2020-03-12 mp_en_viaje: invented whatever, iirc i just recognized the importance of shit other people came up with. but more's the point : you sit there "ready for sex" but you don't know where your zipper is or how it opens ? "any way!!!" ? wtf how are we to satisfyingly copulate here ?
shinohai: lmao
asciilifeform: shinohai: contrary to what you may think, asciilifeform aint preoccupied with 'those bastards, plagiarized my inventions...'
asciilifeform: shinohai: the shit's published. let'em. moslem mujahedeen can take atheistic kalash, christian frenchman can smoke moslem hashish, it's how things work. (or not work.)
asciilifeform: problem aint that 'ohnoez, plagiarized' but that they've nfi how to use.
asciilifeform: ( and problem not for me, but for [l]users . )
asciilifeform: shinohai: remember school ? and kids who cribbed papers ?
shinohai: I'm certainly not suggesting asciilifeform is bothered in least by this, merely a lulzy anecdote.
asciilifeform: shinohai: i strongly suspect you haven't seen the last lulzanecdote.
asciilifeform: oblig. sovok joke:
asciilifeform: ( circa '70s )
asciilifeform: ussr finally collapses. man walks into restaurant, 'bring me glass of vodka and today's 'pravda'.'
asciilifeform: waiter : 'haven't you heard, pravda is no longer issued'
asciilifeform: man: 'bring me glass of vodka and today's 'pravda'.'
asciilifeform: waiter: '...'
asciilifeform: man: 'bring me glass of vodka and today's 'pravda' !!'
asciilifeform: waiter: wtf is wrong with you?
asciilifeform: man: 'say it again, again, i wanna hear it again...!'
snsabot: Logged on 2020-03-12 13:03:49 asciilifeform: shinohai: i strongly suspect you haven't seen the last lulzanecdote.
asciilifeform: shinohai: iirc this is 3rd time 'mp quit!' an' that just on my watch
verisimilitude: The argument could be made that the difference between assign(z, notequals(concatenate(take(-17, y), drop(-17, y)),...)) is merely a matter of syntax, but it's obvious this isn't true, right, asciilifeform?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: but why compare to artificially verbose form ? instead compare with e.g. z <- y`(-17) + y'(-17) != ... or similar
verisimilitude: APL's symbols are nice if only because you can look at them to roughly recall what they do, type them in a single key with no room for mistakes, and fit orders of magnitude more code in a smaller space.
asciilifeform: ( in case not clear, above convention entirely made up. but the point remains )
verisimilitude: Well, clearly, the more verbose form better supports my argument, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: well i was curious if a sanely-compact 'typewriter' form would also support
asciilifeform: i.e. whether apl in fact gives handy shorthands for more ops than the typical bigraphic notations like <- -> etc would
asciilifeform: imho a 'shorthand' oughta be short to ~write~ as well as to read
verisimilitude: Besides, your alternative form is still lacking in some ways. Some dialects of APL add more symbols, which behave and look as others, but the syntax example you've given seems to have some special casing which would impede this.
verisimilitude: APL's symbols make it very pleasant to read, though.
verisimilitude: Why should I approximate an arrow with ASCII when I can use a real arrow?
asciilifeform: evidently not erryone agrees, or aplism would be considerably more often used..
verisimilitude: Would this channel exist in this way if most people agreed to use better hardware and software?
asciilifeform: fwiw i found verisimilitude's apl examples quite challenging to read. (not even on account of the unusual glyphs, but because infix and so difficult to parse the tree)
verisimilitude: Are you familiar with the order of operations?
verisimilitude: I don't explain in my articles the basics of the syntax, but I'll do so here if you want it.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: not defending 'typewriter kbd 4evah!' (like e.g. mp & other 'latin fundamentalisms') but imho when offering notation, oughta make argument for how it wins
asciilifeform: *fundamentalists
verisimilitude: It's a pleasant and compact mathematical notation, for those calculations it was designed for.
verisimilitude: You may find something amusing about APL in relation to Ada, asciilifeform; whereas Ada has arrays which can be indexed by any integer range or even enumerated types, APL is lacking in this respect, with index origin being only zero or one by the standard.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i'm only aware of 2 langs that have arbitrary array indices -- ada and commonlisp
verisimilitude: How does Common Lisp have such?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: see spec
asciilifeform: specifically 'displacement'
asciilifeform: ( spoiler : not as general as ada's indices. but can specify integers. )
verisimilitude: Alright; I figured you meant displacement; I wouldn't consider this close to what Ada allows, but it's a subset.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: afaik ada's the only lang where is permitted to use ~any~ discrete type (incl. discontinuous ranges, enumerated whatevers, etc) for array indices.
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 10 nodes...
watchglass: 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.070s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=621397 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 108.31.170.3:8333 : (pool-108-31-170-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.095s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=621397 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.126s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=621397
watchglass: 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.115s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=621397
watchglass: 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.107s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=621397
watchglass: 192.151.158.26:8333 : Alive: (0.144s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=621397
watchglass: 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.157s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=621397
watchglass: 213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.349s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=621397
watchglass: 188.121.168.69:8333 : (rev-188-121-168-69.radiolan.sk) Alive: (0.403s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=621397
watchglass: 103.36.92.112:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 20 sec.)
asciilifeform: ./ticker btc usd
btcinfobot: Current BTC price in USD: 5836.99
asciilifeform: 5 when!!1
shinohai: wheeeeeeeeeeeeee!
thimbronion: When 1?
asciilifeform: thimbronion: prolly not today, lol
thimbronion: True would take 2 more days at this pace.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: in fact not unrelatedly to your earlier thread. will be interesting to see what coin exch rate is w/out the 'paper' coin.
snsabot: (agriculturalsupremacy) 2020-03-11 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/agriculturalsupremacy/2020-03-11#1001434 << always wondered what this mythical beast, 'safe haven asset', is imagined to be. ( magical thing whose usd price only ever goes up, monotonically..? but at same time not 'rembrandts', i.e. erryone somehow can afford to buy some ? )
thimbronion: asciilifeform: I would like to see something break for sure
asciilifeform: ./ticker btc usd
btcinfobot: Current BTC price in USD: 4668.81
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: gonna qntra this stampede ?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Working on it
asciilifeform: pretty interesting, imho. usd prints $tril of fresh printolade, and folx... buy it
asciilifeform: *usg
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2020/03/fiatbitcoin-interfaces-report-sharp-gains-for-usd/ << Qntra -- fiat/Bitcoin Interfaces Report Sharp Gains For USD Despite US Market Weakening