mats: kako’s multiple lines of sobbing in reply to short responses is hilarious, he used to be less sensitive
mats: less sensitive
mats: er, client made me think that was truncated
mats: ftr i think bitbet was amazing and deeply appreciate his role in it, if he had bought and kept it running, i might still have money on a bet or two there today
mats: i want to make an integer btc wager on us elections this year but i dont know of any trustworthy venues
mats: too bad it blew up over what amounts to pennies compared to the money and history the founders made together
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2020/01/trump-orders-usg-strike-inside-baghdad-international-airport-quds-force-leader-killed/ << Qntra -- Trump Orders USG Strike Inside Baghdad International Airport Quds Force Leader Killed
adlai: mats: what's an "integer btc wager"? in simple terms, what's the lower bar for hedging in your hypothetical trustworthy venue
adlai: iirc, bitbet was unprofitable for hedgers sending fewer than a million satoshis per output
asciilifeform back from holiday
asciilifeform: !q uptime
snsabot: asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 21d 18h 38m
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-01-02#1004719 << i was getting ready to 'this is 2y-old lulz' but apparently fresh, lol
snsabot: Logged on 2020-01-02 12:16:57 shinohai: https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/eiskr6/i_was_reading_saifedeans_book_and_saw_mircea/fctiggk/ <<< trb is "full of vulnerabilities" didja know ?
asciilifeform mildly astonished that cockroach pit is still replaying years-old fud, but whatever, still snoar
adlai: that that that that that refers, is not the that that should be deduplicated [(c) m. gardner, r.i.p]
adlai: how was the holiday, asciilifeform ?
asciilifeform: adlai: i dun recall this in gardner. maybe because read w/out lsd ?
adlai: it's in the "b-sides" of the wordplay section in _Aha! Insight_
asciilifeform: adlai: holiday great. errybody oughta sometimes spend a week away from console.
adlai: (book consists of cartoons containing characters discussing puzzles of a specific variety, followed by prose commentary often containing further examples)
Apocalyptic: also in megalulz, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21917505
Apocalyptic: we need weaker crypto everywhere (tm)
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: that site is a bottomless well of crapola like the linked item
asciilifeform: ( for bonus sad, djb is 1 of the more prolific perpetrators )
Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, sadly the only place that discusses the paper I could find
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: reading papers like this, could fill 'over 9000' lifetimes, to no particular win
asciilifeform: there's a well-oiled conveyor of usg.artists pumping'em out
asciilifeform: quite obv. the cheapest place to break crypto is in the head of the implementer. so that's where they invest.
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: imho, reading yc or academitardia snakepits regularly, to learn whether 'finally someone wrote a solid piece' is like visiting time square daily to see whether ufo landed yet
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: erry once in a while useful, original algo is published, but, observe, you won't find out about it from 'hacker noose' or reddit or 'nature' .
Apocalyptic: luckily I rarely indulge in such readings (at least re yc), this paper was just surprisingly too straightforward about the goal
asciilifeform: they're all screamingly 'straightforward about the goal' if yer third eye is fully open.
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-01-03#1004745 <<< troo, when I awoke this morning top of page was a life-changing post on which set of emoji scissors close.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-01-03 18:02:35 asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: that site is a bottomless well of crapola like the linked item
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-01-03#1004722 << near as i can tell, fella heard about snsa closing, and peeked at the logs, thought to find buncha new 'friends'. but didn't find. hence 'emo' .
snsabot: Logged on 2020-01-03 16:35:47 mats: kako’s multiple lines of sobbing in reply to short responses is hilarious, he used to be less sensitive
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-01-03#1004727 << nuffin ever 'blows up over pennies.' just as camel's back never literally breaks from the biblical '1 straw'. rather, 2 irreconcilable maniacs cannot live for long in 1 box.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-01-03 16:57:37 mats: too bad it blew up over what amounts to pennies compared to the money and history the founders made together
Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, in Barret is there any additional requirements for j,k,X,M than those listed under " And so, we now know that if we satisfy the constraints:" for the algo to hold ?
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: aside from the obv. 'and the arithmetizer must work correctly' -- there are not. (and this oughta be apparent from the proof.) note, however, that there is a separate proof re physical bitness bounds of the necessary operations .
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: the program that corresponds to these 2 proofs, can be seen here .
Apocalyptic: I'm just playing with the algo on some random examples and it barfs on one instance with M = 2^64
Apocalyptic: probably something stupid on my end, I get X - M * G < X mod M, where G is the green part
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: likely you did not handle the degenerate case
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: the other thing is, it is very difficult to implement the algo correctly if you dun 100% understand how it worx . hence the very pedantic proof.
Apocalyptic: is the degenerate case limited to M = 1 ?
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: it is .
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: make sure that your barretoid constants actually satisfy the given inequalities (in particular re the domain of M , X, and B_M . )
Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, I think the issue I'm having is that second inequality in J_M, specifically since M is a power of 2 in my case, it cannot possibly strictly live between two consecutive powers of 2
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: if you're trying the algo in e.g. python, you gotta remember that the bitness of arithmetizer in which M can be 2^64, in ffa is 128.
asciilifeform: (i.e. not 64.)
asciilifeform: ( as illuminated here . )
asciilifeform fixed typo in 'algo 2', ty Apocalyptic . observe that this does not contradict the earlier or subsequent text (or the proggy.)
Apocalyptic: alright I fixed my implementation, everything works as intended
Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, indeed it doesn't contradict anything since it's just the equality case of 2^j <= M mentioned earlier
Apocalyptic: my issue turned out to be that I wasn't properly handling the (k-j) left shift somehow
Apocalyptic: *right shift
Apocalyptic: anyway interesting algo, wasn't familiar with it
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: the original ver. (non-constantspacetime) is due to p. barrett, 1986.
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: the other (comparatively trivial, but also not afaik published anywhere but my www) constant-time algos in the series, are for gcd and miller-rabin
asciilifeform: (one could argue that the constant-time width-measure and shift algos also 'not seen elsewhere', but they are imho trivial and literate folx asked to re-derive'em on empty sheet of paper , i suspect, prolly could do so quickly )
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: feel free to post your personal demo proggy in the comments (or here) .
asciilifeform ftr will say that enjoys this thread 9000x moar than 'what sewer rats said about mp' etc
snsabot: Logged on 2020-01-03 17:54:10 asciilifeform: mildly astonished that cockroach pit is still replaying years-old fud, but whatever, still snoar
Apocalyptic: will do, it was just a quick could-be-one-liner in pari/gp to play with the beast
asciilifeform brb
Apocalyptic: re gcd, nice trick to make the essential part constant-time
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: broken link in above
Apocalyptic: right, lost the page, should be nice trick
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: in principle any algo can be rewritten 'in constant time', 'simply' make sure it always runs in worst case. in actual practice sometimes not obvious how to do this (esp. given that in ffa, also want ~constant space~, so gotta prove the spatial bounds of all intermediate ops)
Apocalyptic: yeah, never really thought about constant-space in algos before
asciilifeform: certain algos intrinsically 'branch on intermediates' (i.e. lehmer's method for gcd) and thus cannot be rewritten 'in constant'
asciilifeform: in the particular case of gcd, interestingly , i know of no proof that it is intrinsically o(n^2) in its worst case. but presently i conjecture that it is.
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: i advocate constant-spacetime arithmetic for e.g. rsa not only because abolishes 'side-channel' leakage, but also because it makes proofs of correctness actually possible.
asciilifeform: algos which branch on intermediates (or index memory by them) are virtually impossible to 'prove correct for all possible inputs'
asciilifeform: the other win is that algos which specify a fixed width of arithmetic, and an input-independent sequence of arithmetizations -- are trivial, comparatively, to hardwareize.
asciilifeform: (to ~properly~ hardwareize, as in to lay out as a circuit which is guaranteed to return the answer in x nsec, consuming every time j joules -- as opposed to a von neumann bastardization)
Apocalyptic: aha, that makes sense