mircea_popescu: ld make them more capable.
mircea_popescu: #trilema in particular is #trilema in particular because the buck stops with mircea_popescu as opposed to any other specific implementation of the same concept, but that's neither here nor there ; moreover you're very much encouraged to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758744 -- a bunch of locals have managed to reach that exalted level where the experience of actually and seriously working the other side of the problem wou
a111: Logged on 2014-01-25 17:35 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah, they only had one guy to answer to. all systems which are build around a spot where the buck stops outperforms systems bereft of such.
mircea_popescu: mircea_popescu IS, in this context and fundamentally, the item where the buck stops, as the http://btcbase.org/log/2014-01-25#459581 concept ; and consequently #trilema is "a thing such as #trilema", as opposed to "a thing such as pantsuit" BECAUSE #trilema is built on this system as opposed to the "buck never stops" only possible alternative.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-06 12:54 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765918 << if mircea_popescu sees himself as the 1 fella with a working head, and sole fountain of sanity, and errybody else is a peculiar sort of animated furniture -- i am quite powerless to cure. ( occasionally i'll try curing anyway, as it sometimes seems to work , e.g. seems to be finally cured of 'plain text' after 3+ yrs of 'wie sind sie eigentlich... !' )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765939 << mircea_popescu does not see itself as any such thing, but that's entirely irrelevant. what mircea_popescu sees itself as or doesn't see itself as doesn't enter into it at any point, and you're misstating the problem.
asciilifeform: hm i dun have it either
phf: and the log keeps on logging
shinohai: Heh I had one of those Sharp calcs when I was a kid, loved the thing.
a111: Logged on 2015-04-28 20:06 ascii_field: not the git thing again
asciilifeform: PeterL: you may find http://btcbase.org/log/2015-04-28#1114226 interesting ( 1 of the early 'how we ended up with v' threads )
asciilifeform: possibly one of the contemporary calcs with 'basic' ( e.g. http://calculators.torensma.net/files/images/sharp_el-5400.jpg )
asciilifeform: there were several models with this shape, for different professions ( the one for accountants is still sold , even )
asciilifeform: the one with bin/hex/octal buttons
PeterL: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765051 << when I was little my dad had (might still have) this nice calculator that asciilifeform would like, it was a scientific calculator, used rpn, was about the size of a mans palm, landscape, solid metale housing
asciilifeform: this was possible partly because 'hands were stronger then' but partly because the proggies were SMALL.
asciilifeform: PeterL: didja ever have 1980s b00kz, magazines, with proggies in'em ? asciilifeform did. and learned more from retyping them, than ever learned at uni
asciilifeform: and the other caveat - if a patch is 500kB, 1) no one will in actuality read it 2) people will lie to themselves and each other re having 'read'.
asciilifeform: and 5th if you count the paper.
asciilifeform: for instance as we speak nao , asciilifeform is rewriting OWN proggy, for the 4th time. line by line.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-02 16:10 mircea_popescu: similarily if you went with machine guns into campus of your choice, the output will be pile of bodies, not red army.
asciilifeform: what i'm not convinced of is that the current crop of hands is up to the job. as in http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-02#1762384 .
asciilifeform: the onus is on YOU, to READ every single fucking line.
asciilifeform: there is not a mechanical substitute for own brain.
asciilifeform: if you are 'taking random' somethings from somewhere and 'sticking them' blindly somewhere else, the error is YOU
PeterL: and how do I know if I take random patch from you and stick it in my different patch tree that it will not break something? wouldn't I want to have the same world as you before adding your patch?
PeterL: have a patch-of-the-patch?
PeterL: and I don't see it as cut-and paste, you would just be changing the one line in the patch to merge it into your own flow?
PeterL: isn't that why we have a main-line version of software, so everybody is working on the same thing? does it make sense for everybody to be wroking on something slightly difference and expect my changes to fit your thing?
asciilifeform: PeterL: the result is that the only way for PeterL to use something asciilifeform wrote, is to turn his house into an exact duplicate of asciilifeform's; or alternatively to cut-and-paste, eulora-mpi-style, destroying all record of the copied item's history. but i already said this. try reading log ?
asciilifeform: consider piano. is it necessarily broken, because when a cat walks on the keys, what comes out is not music ?
PeterL: you don't think it is broken that you were able to commit the "warcrime" so easily?
asciilifeform: PeterL: so to find how it is broken, you will have to ask the folx who believe that it is broken, when they wake up. or at the very least, to read the log.
asciilifeform: PeterL: i dun particularly want anything ; i'm quite happy (aside from the can't-move-text-or-rename-files nonsense) with the way classical v works.
PeterL: so you want to touch comments in pertinent files after-the-fact, while I am suggesting touching a comment in a central file (README?) each time so that doesn't have to happen
asciilifeform: PeterL: as the original ( and afaik to date the only ) perpetrator of this particular warcrime ( the shiva item specifically ) i will say , imho the solution is to Not Do That . rather than to try to make it mechanically impossible. but i'ma not repeat this point further, it dun help .
PeterL: the problem I see with the current system is that you can make a change in one file which relies on a change in behavior of a function defined in a different file. You end up with two "sister" patches, but the second one is invalid without the first.
PeterL: if the is are sister patches A and B, and you want to make C using both of them you just regrind B to B', the only difference would be the one patch version file, and that difference would be readily vissible by diffing B and B', then make C ontop of B', works with current v IIUC
a111: Logged on 2018-01-06 00:00 asciilifeform: i'ma summarize the v thing : if you have a proposed new v algo ; and it would turn my 1kB patches into 1MB, and my readable 3 lines into 100kLoc of ?#@%$*(@%% , and my trivial machine-diff-verifiable changes into 'why dontcha sit for 5 years doing eyeball-powered diff' -- it is NOT an improvement. and i won't touch it. sign it. sign anything made on it. etc
PeterL: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765616 << I dun see why patches have to change much? Thinking of the system proposed by mircea_popescu you would have one line change in a "patch version" file, the rest of the patch would be identical to what we have now
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/gDphe << meanwhile, in other noose, '...impact on CPU usage of one of our back-end services after a host was patched to address the Meltdown vulnerability...'
asciilifeform: will add, however, that there is not and will never be a fully-automated, mechanical nonsense-preventer. it is a moar fantastic dream than the prime-number generator. it is rather like to ask for piano that cannot play badly.
asciilifeform: rrything into 1file. this comes at a cost. apparently this particular electric fence must get pissed on empirically, for the cost to become obvious. let it be pissed on then, i haven't presently anything to add.
asciilifeform: i built the orig v with a certain amount of mechanical 'luft' , so that lateral motion of information between brains was possible without total history erasure. however it is entirely true that this makes it possible to turn a vtree into nonsense with a sequence of individually-correct operations. now you can try and take away the luft , 'hash whole previous press' etc. you can already get this effect in existing v by concatenating e
a111: Logged on 2018-01-06 06:28 mircea_popescu: as to the peculiar way in which http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=eucrypt&search= renders the various arrows : it makes the implication that eg ch4 parents are ch3 "as well as ch1" for the coincidental reason that ch1 is included in ch4s parents both "indirectly" via c3 and "directly" in the lateral and unimportant sense that ch4 changes both files which were changed by ch3 and files that weren't changed since c1. this DOES
a111: Logged on 2018-01-06 06:17 mircea_popescu: first off, the ENTIRE edifice of sanity you partake in is built ENTIRELY on my writing cheques on other people's time. you're welcome to like or not like this, but it is not open to your review.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765918 << if mircea_popescu sees himself as the 1 fella with a working head, and sole fountain of sanity, and errybody else is a peculiar sort of animated furniture -- i am quite powerless to cure. ( occasionally i'll try curing anyway, as it sometimes seems to work , e.g. seems to be finally cured of 'plain text' after 3+ yrs of 'wie sind sie eigentlich... !' )
mircea_popescu: e contextless, nor because they could not fucking be so tooled.
mircea_popescu: so no, at no fucking point does any patch have anything other than a single parent, which is properly speaking "the previous press", rather than "a random collection of files scattered about". like it or not, files don't have the sort of semantic power whereby a db.cpp "of the right hash" will always be useful when imported into some random project. files are not contextless ; neither because they aren't currently tooled to b
mircea_popescu: n the sense you interpret it).
mircea_popescu: if instead of this we look at the other kind of "two parents", whereby ch3 supposedly has both ch2 and mpi_fix_copy as parents, this is specifically the situation discussed by the problem A : that two patches, which ARE STILL IN A CHAIN, nevertheless happen to touch disjunct filesets, and so the question of their order is open (which phf renders "correctly" in the sense of acceptably as he does ; but which is NOT meaningful i
mircea_popescu: NOT make ch4 have "two parents" in the sense contemplated here. it only has one, because the ch1 as included by ch3 is necessarily the same as the ch1 as included "directly".
mircea_popescu: as to the peculiar way in which http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=eucrypt&search= renders the various arrows : it makes the implication that eg ch4 parents are ch3 "as well as ch1" for the coincidental reason that ch1 is included in ch4s parents both "indirectly" via c3 and "directly" in the lateral and unimportant sense that ch4 changes both files which were changed by ch3 and files that weren't changed since c1. this DOES
mircea_popescu: either manage to discuss in the sense of, as part of the discussion, or else go discuss in the sense of, talking to yourself.
mircea_popescu: second off, this approach where you take some vague fragment of what was said, respin it into some bit of nonsense meaningful to some random other interest in your own head and proceed as if that's what's said is not a game anyone in my experience willingly entertained.
mircea_popescu: first off, the ENTIRE edifice of sanity you partake in is built ENTIRELY on my writing cheques on other people's time. you're welcome to like or not like this, but it is not open to your review.
mircea_popescu: every single fucking line you produced in this attempt to double down on the "lalala i can't hear anything" idiocy is flaming, offensive bullshit.
mircea_popescu: there's a very strict limit on the complexity of any discussion (which -- correlates to its utility) imposed by the propensity of bad actor to inject nonsense in the conversation.
mircea_popescu: im striking all this crap from the record.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-06 04:18 mircea_popescu: this is the discussion, proceed but proceed like sane fucking people, save me blood pressure.
asciilifeform: and there is no 'ambiguity' in 2015-v , except in so far as incompetent patch authors permit it.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-06 04:31 mircea_popescu: but yes, there is no other kind of code besides monolith ; i've had enough "bazaar" for three lifetimes of other people i don't particularly like ; and moreover code ambiguity is fucking nuts.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765888 << fughet, for the final time, 'bazaar', esr ain't here, and aint' gonna be here. and it is wrong to use the whip used for esr, on actual people. until you grasp this, your universe will not contain actual people. to unsheath the esr whip here is a fundamentally solipsistic act.
asciilifeform: and now it takes a lifetime to simply juggle the v-mechanics, leaving ~0 time for any of the 'irrelevant' detail like, say, writing ffa.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-24 16:11 asciilifeform: kurchatov, supposedly, sat and thought, and few minutes later answered, 'perhaps from philosophical pov this'd be consistent. but then we will have to forget about obtaining the bomb.'
asciilifeform: i'll admit, i very much dungetit. errybody hated 2015-v from day 1 ? wanted the 1kb patches to be 1MB ? or wat.
asciilifeform: ... and i recommend then to dispense with the pretense of automation, and simply return to signing tarballs. moar honest, and logically equivalent.
asciilifeform: apparently the 2016 mircea_popescu-rigormotris-v , as in http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-23#1589666 , is doomed to come back again and again 4evah
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765884 << very easy to write infinite cheques on OTHER people's time, yes.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-06 04:29 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765580 << eh get the hell out of here, so you want someone to take that patch and put it into some random other tree which happens to have a db.cpp that matches its hash ? this is insanity on the level of early organ transplantation experiments.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765882 << there is no 'random' that so 'happens'. if hash matches -- the delta is valid. end of story. this is what v was about from day 1.
mircea_popescu: i'm gonna skip the rest of this nonsense, jesus f christ.
mircea_popescu: but yes, there is no other kind of code besides monolith ; i've had enough "bazaar" for three lifetimes of other people i don't particularly like ; and moreover code ambiguity is fucking nuts.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 23:40 asciilifeform: think, if EVERY patch requires global regrind of all of world history, you ain't using v, may as well throw out all of the unnecessary equipment -- you're passing a monolithic turd around
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765587 << v exists to permit you too 100/0 split "the monolith/the rest". so the world can therefore safely consists of multiple monoliths.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765580 << eh get the hell out of here, so you want someone to take that patch and put it into some random other tree which happens to have a db.cpp that matches its hash ? this is insanity on the level of early organ transplantation experiments.
mircea_popescu: this is the discussion, proceed but proceed like sane fucking people, save me blood pressure.
mircea_popescu: through some discussion it emerged that A.1 and A.2 are not practically distinct, one just provides the memory for the implementation fo the other as a foremost feature.
mircea_popescu: problem A has two possible legitimate answers : A.1 : introduce a further parentage chain (so patch does not discuss merely file hashes but also somehow a hash of prev patch) and A.2 : introduce a magic file which must (by protocol) be touched by all patches.
mircea_popescu: problem S will not be considered ; problem X is resolved by answering yes. because god fucking help you, if your patch has two antecedents you are a heretic anathema.
mircea_popescu: 1. problem S (alf's) is entirely spurious and not part of this confersation, go talk to dreamweaver about it ; 2. problem A (trinque's) : "if two patches with same antecedent touch disjunct filesets, how does establish which came first" ; 3. problem X ( ben_vulpes 's) : "if i totally sabotage v into a piece of shit entirely contrary to its everything, will you hit me in the head ?"
mircea_popescu: ok this nonsense in the log is fucking infuriating.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765548 << there's no patching atop TWO patches omfg.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 23:18 trinque: the opacity of this question is by now baffling to me.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765537 << im just sitting here shaking my head. WTF ALF! talk to the topic!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that q was misconceived, see further in.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 22:41 asciilifeform: so {[foo]}{[bar]} would then instead look like {[foo]}~{[bar]}_ grrrrrr
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 20:26 asciilifeform: '... stack-based overflow in the function EkCheckCurrentCert. This function is called from TPM2_CreatePrimary with user controlled data - a DER encoded [6] endorsement key (EK) certificate stored in the NV storage....'
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with people taking things in at their own speed. everyone does it regardless if there's anything wrong with it or no anyway.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 19:22 asciilifeform: trinque: i'd bet d00d has spells of sobriety, he has afaik already outlived the expected life of a serious meth aficionado
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765282 << there is that. and, as he points out, "lo! i moved!" etc.
mircea_popescu: "this makes no fucking sense" needn't be either scary or worrisome -- it's the fundamental, unviersal state of mankind anyway.
mircea_popescu: yeah seriously. failure of the esl mind is mostly ensured by a very broken evaluation of "success". take the brick in hand, enough achievement for the first day is to have managed to fucking hold it. yes, it's completely opaque to you. so what if it is. so are many things. see what can be cracked out of it ; there's no shortage of "science fiction" "magical realism" whatever in the actual world once one's you know, no longer
a111: Logged on 2017-10-24 20:57 mircea_popescu: in languages as well as fucking, there's no disadvantage in starting directly with the master class.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-06 01:49 mircea_popescu: and, for completeness : leaning german off kant is perfectly acceptable manner of learning german altogether, for the sufficiently intelligent ; much like learning greek off homer.
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765700 << Danke schön. I'd like to escape the arid esl labyrinth so I've been slowly attempting to lerne Deutsch (still "daycare" level though); this may help to kill two birds with one stone. Looking like Kritik der reinen Vernunft would be my logical starting point
a111: Logged on 2017-12-13 01:01 asciilifeform: how to smoke -- is possibly the 1 item where the red man had right idea.
mircea_popescu: there's this lulzy "guy wrote 5 checks for $20 each every SINGLE day for three years" sorta stories from law enforcement.
asciilifeform: the meat habituates
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765278 << teitelbaum gaon sez, excessive virtue still vicious. nothing wrong with a little of whatever now and again, i for that matter drink the occasional cup of coffee and so on. the problem's when it becomes a regular thing, "i am in X circumstance therefore must Y".
asciilifeform: ( can do 'backpropagation', or 'genetic algo' to 'evolve' the params, or some other way )
asciilifeform: nn is a very broad item, and properly speaking the 'training' is distinct from the mechanics of the 'neurons' per se
mircea_popescu: this is a neural network in the sense frog has cns.
mircea_popescu is persuased neural networks / expert systems / etc ai.mit nonsense is waste of tiem ; however we could put the difference between trng and prng in these terms : only one is useful for evolutionary work.
asciilifeform: he got the notion ( re nn convergence, not methscope, lol ) from ancient log, where asciilifeform described own finding
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nah nah, was some other kid, had a whole pile of "nsa recognizes you for your not having done any work in x field" certs and whatnot.
a111: Logged on 2015-10-13 19:48 ascii_field: '...so the room would be empty!'
a111: Logged on 2017-11-25 00:24 gabriel_laddel: 1000x magnification seems unrealistic - that being said: if I crush some product, take hundreds of images of each sample & use them as input into a neural network along with a 1-10 (bunk-absolute fire) rating y'think it'll get trained to recognize the real deal?
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 19:16 gabriel_laddel: training a NN on FG output to see if it trains faster so I can sell them
asciilifeform: lol the methscopy
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765236 << no that was the different one, with the microscopy.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 19:00 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform somehow you jump from "my printer is shit, doesn't work properly" to "either magic number or throw out printer"
mircea_popescu: this is very much the problem of thinking man, "i know what i like i just don't know what it is" ie http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765170
mircea_popescu: for instance -- i did not observe then that "tab" makes 0 sense, entirely vt100.item to borrow your reference, and will not be maintained. CONTRARY to what i thought at the time, i don't like tabs, i like the thing tabs emulate, which is lisp autoindent
asciilifeform: sorta like in another thread re giving money to bears. just makes funnily shaped bear shit.
mircea_popescu: very substantially the same but formally different because no good form yet, so entirely useless (other than from historical pov)
asciilifeform: iirc we had almost exactly this thread, with the tabs-spaces thing
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 19:06 mod6: my vtron has been discussed very much over the last 2+ years. i remember many disucssions where rules popped out.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765209 << yeah, somehow it became the epicenter of vcritique.
mircea_popescu: well this has been a productive morning then.
mircea_popescu: cool. not like there's any rush.
mircea_popescu: (contrary to above newjersyization, print was mega-republican tech, in that it STANDARDIZED LETTERS. you would NOT FUCKING BELIVE the unicode the dark ages had produced!)
mircea_popescu: and then harem on top.
asciilifeform: store data as fucking sexprs already. let the vt100 die.
mircea_popescu: in the republic, the reference system is patch-tree ; press-head ; word-offset. wtf is wrong with that!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform much in the way pain in eye goes away once you move the fucking spoon.
asciilifeform: nelson's doom goes away if you can staticize the text.
mircea_popescu: so then, can we forget the inanities. reference is by wordcount, paragraph, work ; there is no "generic" work title but only correct patchid, ie the bible take 349875938475893749854379857 above ; and this is fucking all.
mircea_popescu: the bible take 349875938475893749854379857 paragraph 96 word 17
a111: Logged on 2018-01-06 02:46 asciilifeform: if you have a record of all the prev shots, it is trivial to avoid recurring ( use simple counter )
asciilifeform: q is not whether, but how
mircea_popescu: how is this anything than "high fucking time we implement the original correctness" ?
asciilifeform: then somebody made electric textrons where the text can... change. AFTER somebody already pointered into it.
mircea_popescu: NOTE!!! however thatr foercing this ("all bible pages begin and end on same fucking words motherfuckers!!!) ruins the very point of print
mircea_popescu: there was an early knuth trying an early standardization of the same inanity, cca 1600, yes
mircea_popescu: "works 80% of the time and breaks everything"
asciilifeform: then gutenberg, and also became sometimes possible to refer to page.
asciilifeform: it's the problem that drove ted nelson mad.
mircea_popescu: the ~only~ person who matters, in ALL of fucking computer, is HE WHO READS CODE, all hail to him, the greatest one.
mircea_popescu: code reference is to be optimized for the reader of code.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform code reference is not to be optimized for the writer of code.
asciilifeform: trivial changes mutilate the pointer
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 18:54 asciilifeform: ( whynot, is not a bad question, it reduces to the absence of a solution to the tednelson problem -- how to point into a structure unambiguously, other than by line # )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765140 << could trivially point into structure by word count! which is how it was fucking done before you darned kids started skatin' on the sidewalk! my addressing into classical text is paragraph count / word offset. what the FUCK is a line!
asciilifeform: harder is when there is not a record.
asciilifeform: if you have a record of all the prev shots, it is trivial to avoid recurring ( use simple counter )
mircea_popescu: ("why not ?" "because he's not gonna reissue the item already in db doh")
mircea_popescu: back at sanity ranch, ~only way to know it won't recur is the way trinque has it implemented
mircea_popescu: this is not the samr thing!
asciilifeform: ^ there's gotta be a likbez in'ere.
asciilifeform: they're simply 'i want a piece of shit that won't recur'
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 18:45 asciilifeform: ( upstack : dma, interrupts, pipeline, instruction reorderer, 'hyperthreading', multiple buses, 'bridges' -- all are epicycles ( hey mircea_popescu ! ) from vonneumannism , where instructions 'push' (unrelated to stack concept) outputs, rather than 'pull' inputs as they oughta )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765119 << this is actually the most cogent critique of phalocentrism in computing i ever read.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765100 << this is a gensym in the sense girl you met at butcher's is your true love. why not call gns like sane people.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 18:28 asciilifeform: no good. first of all suppose there are 2 concurrent runs of the vtron ( say this is a cuntoo pressing itself )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765095 << there's a certain...ring... to that. "a cuntoo pressing itself". http://78.media.tumblr.com/9307e89967592d33f10d9598fcdbc2ec/tumblr_ndiplotSRF1th0gwho1_1280.jpg
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 19:01 mircea_popescu: in any case, here's the logic : the proximate cause of the failure of "computer science" to amount to 0 (not epsilon, 0) since its inception is strictly due to poor treatment of comments as 2nd class item in code.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 18:12 asciilifeform: well, let's reread http://trilema.com/2015/no-such-labs-releases-v-for-victory then :
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765028 << lmao this guy. YOU PUT IT THERE! and moreover... what is the logic of "begins to suspect that ~nobody actually read ch5" when "it survived nearly a week of asciilifeform rereading whole thing every day." ? DID YOU NOT READ IT ?
esthlos: hmm...is there a way for reflow not to break diff...
mircea_popescu: esthlos because if put in separate places they'll automatically personalize ; hence the blogposts comment.
scriba: Logged on 2018-01-05: [19:03:26] <mircea_popescu> as i say -- i see no way out here ; we'll end up with the v-code + blog-commentary ostrich-camel and god help us./
mircea_popescu: "now we're getting somewhere" better predictor of failure ; and there being english names anywhere inside the item -- almost perfect predictor.
mircea_popescu: and, for completeness : leaning german off kant is perfectly acceptable manner of learning german altogether, for the sufficiently intelligent ; much like learning greek off homer.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 15:53 asciilifeform: ' fauns, beings of double sex, brutes with six-fingered hands, sirens, hippocentaurs, gorgons, harpies, incubi, dragopods, minotaurs, lynxes, pards, chimeras, cynophales who darted fire from their nostrils, crocodiles, polycaudate, hairy serpents, salamanders, horned vipers, tortoises, snakes, two-headed creatures whose backs were armed with teeth, hyenas, otters, crows, hydrophora with saw-tooth horns, frogs, gryphons, monkeys, dog-
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 17:11 mircea_popescu: they had all sorts of (utterly nonsensical) "cars of the future", their features being that they were "warlike" (in a dysfunctional, anti-mechanicistic, looks-are-everything-and-hot-beats-cute girl pov) and that they had mechanisms exposed
mircea_popescu: exactly a problem of "where the fuck is your engine" ie http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763930 ie "your problem is that you aren't fucking thinking. AT ALL."
mircea_popescu: what the everloving fuck already, car-paintjob-toenails-sunscreen-beachbod.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's a place where he was integrated into the borg, but it's a dubious weld.
mircea_popescu: absolute ban on english as an avenue to this much in the same way absolute ban to barking as an avenue to opera. i don't care if you're a dog and i don't care if barking comes naturally to you
mircea_popescu: so do not fucking dare read anything having any ENGLISH SOUNDING NAMES anywhere at any point involved, which includes the fucking best grip.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 07:03 mircea_popescu: other than the lovely "if you launched all pantsuit in outer space, do you expect seti would manage to find any ?" putdown, valuable lesson from naggum : inept bureaucrats / insufferable cucks / other "people themselves" try to barnacle their inept nonsense (in original, scheme) on pre-existing "brand" (as they perceive it ; in the original -- lisp) for the transparently transactional reason that this way they "get to" (as th
mircea_popescu: and since this was mentioned : "kantian ethics", ie the item on which lazy-because-dumb-because-lazy-because-dumb-because esltards have gelled in their attempt to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764883 ie spuriously pretend "oh, WE ALREADY DID KANT!!" etc is about as relevant to the man's work as newtonian alchemy is relevant to newton's work.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 17:50 lobbes: In other incidental preguntas: mircea_popescu, can you recommend good "introductory" reading on the subject of thought classification? It seems like the obvious fundamental to improving my cognitive processes
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765023 << sadly, not in this language. but otherwise, the german school is the canonical introduction ; read ye yer kant, then proceed to http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=frege (not the other fucking way around ; english is a liability to the thinking man, and the latter's accessibility a burden).
asciilifeform: if there's anybody else who signed , but not currently visible in http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch5_egypt in appropriate spot -- plox to write in.
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: i really gotta automate this 'meta' , the existing 'eyeball-powered' one is rather laughable.
asciilifeform: it's the typical 1.
asciilifeform: post the coad!
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 07:13 mircea_popescu: o the fuck he is!!! ie, the world's heavyweight champion. ayer explained that he's the ex wykeham professor of logic, and since they're both pre-eminent in their respective fields, how about they indulge in discourse rather than intercourse. oddly enough tyson accepted, and naomi campbell slipped out -- apparently undamaged enough by the experience to actually do those not-even-terrible shots with madonna.
asciilifeform: this is what distinguishes us from the apes, we can do experiment, rather than argue over empty table.
asciilifeform: hey trinque why dontcha write your variant vtron. then we'll talk about the output. rather than this headache.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-06 00:00 asciilifeform: i'ma summarize the v thing : if you have a proposed new v algo ; and it would turn my 1kB patches into 1MB, and my readable 3 lines into 100kLoc of ?#@%$*(@%% , and my trivial machine-diff-verifiable changes into 'why dontcha sit for 5 years doing eyeball-powered diff' -- it is NOT an improvement. and i won't touch it. sign it. sign anything made on it. etc
asciilifeform: understand, trinque , asciilifeform does not suffer from an irrational hatred of people who start with letter 't' , and thereby balk at $algo. asciilifeform genuinely does not see how it results in anything other than a http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765616 horror show.
trinque: there are two questions conflated here; 1) what is the expected state of the patient and 2) what is to be done to him
trinque: by simply naming the files that would've received the junk-comments as antecedents, with hash of their expected state
asciilifeform: ( btw does trinque have an existing variant-vtron that i can look at the output of ? )
asciilifeform: suppose this algo were in use. and it is time for trinque to write the 'makefiles' patch . how does the latter coalesce the strands ?
trinque: I proposed two schemes to better model it, and actually like the second better. one was including the entire concatenation's hash in a vpatch. the second was being able to name arbitrary antecedent files without the requirement that diff material follows
asciilifeform: but they aren't meaningless. they signify 'you will have ~this~ db.cpp and ~this~ db.h and ...'
trinque: you are *already* naming arbitrary antecedents in this ad hoc manner of ~meaningless~ junk edits that do not well convey why they happened by sitting there.
asciilifeform: how does $scheme differ from the old practice of signing tars ?
asciilifeform: trinque: is the observation factual or not ?
asciilifeform: you can sign tarballs right now. i dun see why to even use a vtron then.
asciilifeform: and it is the correct way to coalesce strands.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: there is nothing mechanically 'speshulcase' about it, the vtron has no dedicated execution path for it. it'sa patch like any other.
ben_vulpes: but this is the magic political speshul case of a patch that ties together other patches for the political object that is a release!
trinque: ben_vulpes: don't cloud the politics with facts!
trinque: second, does my memory deceive or did the thing end up with a comment in an *unrelated file*
asciilifeform: i'ma summarize the v thing : if you have a proposed new v algo ; and it would turn my 1kB patches into 1MB, and my readable 3 lines into 100kLoc of ?#@%$*(@%% , and my trivial machine-diff-verifiable changes into 'why dontcha sit for 5 years doing eyeball-powered diff' -- it is NOT an improvement. and i won't touch it. sign it. sign anything made on it. etc
trinque: first off, I wrote the makefiles, mod6 modified. speaking of political fog.
ben_vulpes: ehehehentirely unrelatedly, asciilifeform, what's with the odd capitalization of mUx in ch4?
asciilifeform: mod6's 'makefiles' was able to cleanly build on 'asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected' , without regrinding anything. i still fail to understand what would have been gained by forcing mod6 to ~manually~ regrind the entire history of entire fucking world in order to produce 'makefiles' ( and for the latter to consequently weigh a megabyte , instead of 10kb !!! )
asciilifeform: and at the risk of repeating , trinque can ~already~ do his style, in the existing v. whereas asciilifeform can't do worth shit in a trinque-style v.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: arguing has honed how i see the problem at least
asciilifeform: and yes it relies on operators not to do blitheringly idiotic things. this is why v is possible in tmsr and not at microshit.
asciilifeform: that's what 'hash the codebase' equals. 1 file.
asciilifeform: but i'ma rewind upstack : trinque is entirely free to begin using this type of v right now ! by coalescing whole proggy into 1 file. then he can see what ends up happening to his tree.
asciilifeform: superflous constraints, 'just in case', is how the talmudists ended up the way they are.
asciilifeform: trinque: the fact that the patch gets to be small, readable, and cleanly coalesceable . it correctly reflects the fact that it nonconflicts with items outside of db.cpp .
trinque: there can be multiple trees just fine in that world
asciilifeform: think, if EVERY patch requires global regrind of all of world history, you ain't using v, may as well throw out all of the unnecessary equipment -- you're passing a monolithic turd around
trinque: we come to a deep political disagreement there
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: yes and this is coarse error in pilotage. THIS, not the fact that v permits you.
ben_vulpes: the point that trinque is making is that you can change other files in such a way that ruins maxint_locks
asciilifeform: want moar ? or get the idea
trinque: I do not need to edit the fucking thing to depend on a particular state of it
asciilifeform: and imposes nonsensical constraint that would not otherwise be imposed.
trinque: sure it is; I proposed before that the antecedent hash ought to be the hash of the concatenation
trinque: db.cpp is nothing by itself, other than "ono this file was too big"
asciilifeform: i think i grasp what trinque wants : for vtron to actually reflect the semantics of the code being juggled
asciilifeform: trinque: if you really hate files, you are welcome to make the whole proggy 1 file
trinque: you do not see how it's fundamentally retarded to consider db.cpp a distinct thing, rather than the scroll "trb" as the *thing*
asciilifeform: i pointedly do NOT agree that 'having to use an external tool like cp command' is a problem. for fuckssake you have to use a non-vtron tool to edit the coad ! vtron dun replace emacs.
asciilifeform: i am so far failing to see the mega-problem
asciilifeform: there's no particular reason for anything extraneous to get draggedin
asciilifeform: trinque: if B needs A1 and A2, it naturally gets parented by both. if it needs instead modified A1' and A2' , then naturally each of those is parented by the respective A1 or A2
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: think of it this way : EVERY time you edit ANYTHING, you created 'invalid' state, i.e. one that could never have been the result of a sequence of presses of previously-existing patches !
trinque: patch A1 and A2 are peers, happened to different files with same starting codebase state. you proposed writing a B that encompases whatever changes plus the bodies of A1 and A2.
asciilifeform: can draw a hypothetical for asciilifeform's enlightenment plox ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the only item required to be a hook on which a valid press hangs, is individual patch
ben_vulpes: what irks me about this is that one can make a patch that depends on a state of the codebase that is not a valid press.
asciilifeform: by copying the db.cpp from asciilifeform's tree, the main.cpp from trinque's , and making sure they do not semantically conflict , then vdiffing.
trinque: the opacity of this question is by now baffling to me.
trinque: question there wasn't just moves. it was how to ever have two patches with same parent, that edited different files, end up same item.
asciilifeform: i oughta be able to take a 1MB text file, cut it in the middle, and swap the halves, and the resulting diff to be a few lines.
asciilifeform: it doesn't solve the fundamental problem