No Such lAbs
trilemaasciilifeformossasepiapizarroeuloraspyked
5h 6m22h 8m55m6d 2h 13m1d 4h 11m1d 4h 57m
Pizarro



mircea_popescu: in other antiqua entomologica arcana, https://www.xemacs.org/About/XEmacsVsGNUemacs.html
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> holy hell i lived to see the end of the 4th day of 2018 logs. << ikr!
mod6: ni ni :]
mircea_popescu: "doom is inevitable, BTW. mankind will die out, planet earth will be vaporized when Sol goes nova, if not sooner, and then Common Lisp will have to acknowledge defeat to the unwavering hostility of the universe. for those of us who plan to become immortal, this is a serious concern." <<< 1999 naggum was apparently planning for immortality ?
mircea_popescu: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3129644482406982@naggum.no.html << this exchange with fare is pretty amusing/informative both wrt "who is this francois-rene rideau character ?" and as an early "bitcoin improvements from the sewer" sampler/potputre.
mircea_popescu: other than the lovely "if you launched all pantsuit in outer space, do you expect seti would manage to find any ?" putdown, valuable lesson from naggum : inept bureaucrats / insufferable cucks / other "people themselves" try to barnacle their inept nonsense (in original, scheme) on pre-existing "brand" (as they perceive it ; in the original -- lisp) for the transparently transactional reason that this way they "get to" (as th
mircea_popescu: ey perceive it) blame all their (ample) shortcomings on the hulk barnacled while claiming all the (scant) benefit as own.
mircea_popescu: these letters from a time before empire-of-idiots was formalized and understood as such are about as fascinating as a child's experience from before it understood any mechanics at all.
mircea_popescu: anyway, thinking about this whole "fsf was an attempt to *finally* bring about socialist utopia through a fettering of everyone's access to knowledge while open source was an attempt to nevermindthatjustkillM$already leading to java-for-browser because microsoft invented a c++ market etc" broad but really mostly correct summary, the one most striking aspect is that somehow the job of the modder (ie, guy that adds those snazzy
mircea_popescu: chrome tailpipes on already made car/pc/whatever cxhassis) somehow ended up called "designer".
mircea_popescu: motherfucking mother of isis, the act of arraying buttons together in a guy is no design!
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764875 <- answered & addressed -> http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/01/04/eucrypt-chapter-4-random-prime-number-generator/#comment-1031
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 04:41 mircea_popescu will take this to the comment section now.
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764721 <- so I gather the 80 cols habit won the day for code
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 03:07 mircea_popescu: so to have closure, i suppose http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763975 should read "80 cols plox what is this"
diana_coman: which is perfectly fine with me for code; it's still grating for comments and I'm not sure how this will resolve, it sort of pushes comments out of code (to a place where one can read them as text not as code-which-they-are-not)
asciilifeform: diana_coman: not merely code, but everything that is in a vpatch
asciilifeform: ought to be printable on a drum printer
asciilifeform: reflowolade is for blogposts.
asciilifeform: would not insist that a vpatch ~itself~ oughta be 80col, as that would constrain the contents even further, to 76 or so
diana_coman: I was just writing that! lol
diana_coman: not that 4 characters make much difference in any case
asciilifeform: diana_coman: as a side effect, you get an easily formatted code-box for blogging, as in ffa.
asciilifeform: they make a difference, diana_coman , those 4 chars. just like if you suggested to a railroad to take 4cm from the rail gauge.
diana_coman: ah, should have been precise there: they don't make a difference for me at this stage; I can stick to 80 just as I can stick to 76 really
asciilifeform: 'this railroad had this gauge since 1830 and what is this'
asciilifeform: aa ok
diana_coman: purposefully gets used to all sorts of different things, makes it easy to switch between them really
diana_coman: I suppose I'm not much of a train basically
asciilifeform: i suspect the key difference b/w 'x columns or bust' folx and the others, is the habit of using printer
asciilifeform: ( and to lesser extent, vertical display )
diana_coman: I suspect it's more the investment in the habit really; printer might be *one form* but it doesn't convince me much in itself
asciilifeform: back when i had a horizontal display, most of the time i had it column-split and emacs 'followmode' to flow proggy between them
asciilifeform: diana_coman: printer forces max cols.
asciilifeform: there's no way around it. ( some people resort to printing 90 degrees to get more cols.
asciilifeform: )
diana_coman: so basically columns newspaper style, as I was saying yesterday, yes; inevitably, if 80 cols, ofc
diana_coman: anyways, it's settled, 80cols it will have to be
asciilifeform: recall the famous 'lions book', was printed in this style
diana_coman: as a side note, that's precisely why I did *not* adopt emacs in the end despite liking it quite a lot when met it at uni: it was VERY useful indeed but the sort of useful that was too close to addictive for my liking essentially
diana_coman: that might be my brand of weird only though
asciilifeform: not errybody uses emacs
asciilifeform: ( though if you intend to do any commonlisp, you're more or less doomed to either use it, or emulate it )
diana_coman: as long as it doesn't basically cripple me to everything else, I can use it, sure
asciilifeform: not sure how it'd cripple , aside from cultivating the 'unreasonable' expectation of sanity (i.e. extensibility) of editor
asciilifeform: in the same sense as e.g. mircea_popescu is 'crippled from' eating at wallmart .
diana_coman: no, in the sense of "80 cols or NOTHING ELSE"; same thing there: can work with emacs or NOTHING ELSE
diana_coman: is not pushing anything nor bashing emacs
asciilifeform: the only item i use that has no equiv whatsoever outside of emacsland, is slime
asciilifeform: ( it has a superior grandfather, the actual bolix lispm. but no equiv on pc. )
asciilifeform: admits that he does not particularly ~like~ emacs. it simply ended up a schelling point, like linux. but suffers from same type of problems.
asciilifeform: and i 'can work' with other editor, just as can write with goose feather and ink also, and can saw with hand saw instead of electric saw... so long as it is understood that everything will take 50x longer.
asciilifeform: and given the choice, will take ballpoint pen over feather, and emacs over 'ed'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764878 << aaah, the prb of emacs ! it lives on, yes
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 05:03 mircea_popescu: in other antiqua entomologica arcana, https://www.xemacs.org/About/XEmacsVsGNUemacs.html
asciilifeform: providing 'valuable pheatures' like variable-width font..
diana_coman: are you saying that 50x improvement is really due totally to emacs being to any other editor what pen is over feather? because otherwise Nx longer is exactly "nothing else" when N is large enough
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764882 << i'm quite tempted to give the archive another combing and make a sequel to my http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165 item
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 06:21 mircea_popescu: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3129644482406982@naggum.no.html << this exchange with fare is pretty amusing/informative both wrt "who is this francois-rene rideau character ?" and as an early "bitcoin improvements from the sewer" sampler/potputre.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: indeed it is.
asciilifeform: (not 'emacs' per se, but e.g. slime. you couldn't pay me to write lisp without slime or equivalent, just as not even gulag inmates will dig with hands instead of spade )
diana_coman: well, I never used slime so I can't comment
asciilifeform: the meaningless shitwork ratio, lacking slime, moves from 0% to ~100%
diana_coman: note though that we were talking emacs, not slime; enfin
asciilifeform: slime lives in emacs.
diana_coman: yes, so you need emacs because slime; that sounds like a lot of snails already,lol
asciilifeform: emacs per se is nothing to write home about, it is full of gnarly archaicisms , and the default keymapping will, as naggum described, destroy your hands , unless you fix it
asciilifeform: ( it was born on keyboards which no longer exist )
asciilifeform: but then again why the everlivingfuck would i run with defaults on a ~configurable~ tool that i use 14+ hr/day )
diana_coman: aha; so no argument in fact; basically you say "I need emacs for what I'm doing because slime"; I say "so far I'm happily not cornered by anything into using emacs"
asciilifeform: >> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=836 << oblig
asciilifeform: diana_coman: 'best thing is never to have programmed at all' or how did socrates put it.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: speaking of nonemacsism, adacore's special-purpose editor, 'gps', is imho pretty decent
asciilifeform: ( i recommend to nonemacsists, to try it )
diana_coman: asciilifeform, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=836#comment-18597
asciilifeform: aha!
diana_coman: I'll have a look at gps then
asciilifeform: it comes with the binariolade gnat. if you're using gcc gnat, will have to compile it, a little bit gnarly.
shinohai: "GPS provides several levels of customization, from simple preference dialogs to powerful scripting capability through the Python language" <<< why?
shinohai: Seems another scripting language would have been chosen, but meh.
asciilifeform: shinohai: which ?
shinohai: lisp works as a scripting language, neh
asciilifeform: i dun particularly relish pythonism, but proliferation of 'i wrote it on a napkin, on a train, while drunk' script langs, incl. elisp-style dynamicscope abortions, is imho harmful
shinohai: point
asciilifeform: that being said, gprbuild ( what ffa uses instead of gnumake ) seems to make very effective use of a kind of interpreted subset of ada
asciilifeform: could , in principle, be expanded into a scripting lang.
asciilifeform: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: asciilifeform: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 16076.28, vol: 15424.74126164 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 16047.0, vol: 47384.63064283 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 16000.0, vol: 3644.58814136 | Volume-weighted last average: 16051.2185715
BingoBoingo: And the crashing resumes
BingoBoingo: And the registrations are starting to trickle in. I R SRS BSNS NAO!
BingoBoingo: Except no "nao" doesn't read as the same thing it did pre Uruguay
BingoBoingo: Dammit, I'm not going to be able to mispell now for creative effect anymore am I
asciilifeform: wainot?
BingoBoingo: Because in Protuguese "Nao" means No, which means yes, which means anal
asciilifeform: in other noose,
asciilifeform: !#s harold martin
a111: 3 results for "harold martin", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=harold%20martin
asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/o6uML/?raw=true << he confessed, 'pleabargained'.
asciilifeform: ( spoiler : best part is re how evidence remains seekrit, plus the usual claptran in re how e.g. usg not obligated to do anything in return for the confession )
asciilifeform: *claptrap
asciilifeform: ( see e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-21#1557756 thread )
a111: Logged on 2016-10-21 14:02 asciilifeform: funny how they put the 'cloud storage' in the bail denial affidavit, but have not yet even bothered to parallelconstruct some reason ~other than it~ for how the d00d could have been caught.
mod6: mornin
asciilifeform: ohai mod6
mod6: how goes today?
asciilifeform: slowly.
asciilifeform: and you , mod6 ?
mod6: not bad! i implemented the pill to calculate the press path from a given leaf. seems to be working pretty well. i ran all my automated tests, passed 50/54 without incident. Four of the tests are pretty complex test cases where we basically yank one of the vpatches out of the middle of a vtree, then test to ensure that we avoid that where required.
mod6: Since now the press path is calculated slightly different now than blindly shoveling in the flow, those tests needed some adjustments on their assertions of expected output.
asciilifeform: aa neato
mod6: I went through each one, looks to be doing the sane thing. I'm probably going to write it up in a little post that can be looked at, as opposed to trying to explain all of that in 3 lines of irc.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's main pheature-request for mod6 is to print meaningful eggogs, rather than silent 'new jersey' failure
asciilifeform: e.g. 'beheaded chain found: [list of patches]' when there is a patch with non-null parentage but parent is absent
asciilifeform: and 'wild chain found: ...' when there's a missing seal
asciilifeform: rather than simply ignoring inputs.
mod6: yeah, i actually did add a 'check_required' routine that is semi-related to this. for instance, when that error happened, it was because some guy didn't have `sha512sum'. so the check_required subroutine will now run first, and check to ensure that a list of system biniaries are available before anything happens. and if not, exits.
asciilifeform: right, oughta have similar for gpg
mod6: There are better error messages, or averting a silent fail that will also help here. I haven't gotten that far on that part yet.
asciilifeform: ( if an external proggy is made use of -- oughta check that it exists )
mod6: wanna see the experimental patch i'm workin on?
asciilifeform: sure
mod6: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/aj5jZ/?raw=true << this is an experimental only thing!!
asciilifeform: aaa this is the vtron
asciilifeform: neato.
asciilifeform: is quite out of practice in reading perl
mod6: the 'print_press_path' subroutine is, for the time, for debugging only.
shinohai: I seem to be patched in and basic functions working, so sing out when ready to test mod6 o7
asciilifeform: ty for making and maintaining this vtron, mod6 . it is a good thing.
mod6: no prob. thanks asciilifeform
mod6: so goal is to fix this problem. then carry on and document all the rules the thing has in place. this way, others can try to build in those rules we've discussed in here to their vtrons without having to fish them all out of 2 years of logs.
mod6: that's later tho. first, just gotta get this fixed, then we can move on to greater things.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764882 << hah, i read it and didn't notice that it was with fare. there's more fare interactions there of similar nature.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 06:21 mircea_popescu: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3129644482406982@naggum.no.html << this exchange with fare is pretty amusing/informative both wrt "who is this francois-rene rideau character ?" and as an early "bitcoin improvements from the sewer" sampler/potputre.
asciilifeform: at one time tried to read fare's blog, quickly barfed, d00d has a multitude of socialist-flavoured cockroaches in his crankcase
ben_vulpes: mod6: while you're in there can you get your vtron to cleanup its tmp gnupg directory when it catches a ctrl-c?
ben_vulpes: it is a minor thing that i occasionally trip over
asciilifeform: ideally a vtron oughta unhappen, to the extent possible, everything it did to the world, if it gets a ctrl-c
asciilifeform: but other unixland utils do not do this, so it is possibly a bridge too far to expect it of this one
ben_vulpes: ah k nm then
asciilifeform: nah the tmp thing definitely ought to clean up
asciilifeform: or at the very least not ever use the same absolute tmp path
ben_vulpes: right, i shelled out to mktmpdir in mine
asciilifeform: ( have a gensym. there is no excuse ever to be hosed by a previous unsuccessful run. )
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764971 << porque no?? It isn't like it didn't mean that BEFORE you learned it. Plus, now you got extra layers: "I R SRS BSNS, ANAL!1!"
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 15:18 BingoBoingo: Because in Protuguese "Nao" means No, which means yes, which means anal
lobbes: In other incidental preguntas: mircea_popescu, can you recommend good "introductory" reading on the subject of thought classification? It seems like the obvious fundamental to improving my cognitive processes
asciilifeform: !!up pehbot
deedbot: pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !A .1.0*#
pehbot: asciilifeform: EGGOG: Pos: 4: Division by Zero!
asciilifeform: ^ bug. shame on everybody, for not noticing.
asciilifeform: there's a stray MustNotZero(Stack(SP)); in ffa_calc.
asciilifeform: ( fixed in ch6 . )
asciilifeform: and it survived nearly a week of asciilifeform rereading whole thing every day.
asciilifeform: >> http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch5_egypt#L63 << concretely.
asciilifeform: begins to suspect that ~nobody actually read ch5...
asciilifeform: !A .0.1*#
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
asciilifeform: ^ see.
asciilifeform: ( obviously was a paste artifact, from '%' case )
asciilifeform: !A .0.0*#
pehbot: asciilifeform: EGGOG: Pos: 4: Division by Zero!
asciilifeform: Stack(SP) , given as folx haven't been reading attentively, is top of stack.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: still working on my solution to ch4
asciilifeform: and yes this is what asciilifeform does when he wakes up : rereads ffa. all of it.
ben_vulpes: so will not be reading ch5 yet
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: questions/comments ? does ch4 make sense to you ?
ben_vulpes: it does, this is my first encounter with a stack machine tho so thinking is proceeding slowly
asciilifeform: oh hm
asciilifeform: for some reason i thought that ben_vulpes had done hard time on jvm
asciilifeform: and would have seen stackmachine
ben_vulpes: only the artsy fartsy guicrap
asciilifeform: lolk
asciilifeform: ever owned a rpn calc , ben_vulpes ?
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> mod6: while you're in there can you get your vtron to cleanup its tmp gnupg directory when it catches a ctrl-c? << if you CTRL+C the thing, it really can't get rid of it. you're expected to clean this up on your own so the vtron doesn't remove something it wasn't suppoesd to.
asciilifeform: mod6: the temp dir is primo example of an always-ok-to-kill item. i.e. one which the vtron run itself created and would never otherwise exist
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: have not, believe it or not
mod6: otherwise, my vtron handles the creation and deletion of that .gnupgtmp dir on its own.
asciilifeform: esp if it gets in the way of a subsequent run
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: odd! are they so rare today ?
mod6: im pretty sure we all had this discussion once upon a time, and it's only doing now, what we agreed to do before. I can go and dig for that.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: not rare, was just never beaten with one
asciilifeform: mod6: an aborted run of vtron should not be able to put a caltrop for subsequent run to die on. this is imho elementary.
ben_vulpes: had to go beat self with everything i was never beaten with starting in my early twenties when the republic kicked off
ben_vulpes: mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-11-05#1316693 is what i dig up on the topic
a111: Logged on 2015-11-05 02:08 asciilifeform: -- a unique thing that never was and never will be again.
asciilifeform: aha
ben_vulpes: mod6: i don't actually recall any agreement on the topic, you did yours one way and i another, and i cannot recall how asciilifeform's original handled this
asciilifeform: well, let's reread http://trilema.com/2015/no-such-labs-releases-v-for-victory then :
asciilifeform: ... used 'tempfile' py lib
asciilifeform: gpgtmp = tempfile.mkdtemp()
asciilifeform: .... shutil.rmtree(gpgtmp)
asciilifeform: did not attempt to catch ctrl-c or any other signal.
asciilifeform: however the external 'tempfile' item, made gensymtronic dirs. so this never became a headache.
asciilifeform: https://docs.python.org/2/library/tempfile.html << gory details.
asciilifeform: let's quote ftr : 'Creates a temporary directory in the most secure manner possible. There are no race conditions in the directory’s creation. The directory is readable, writable, and searchable only by the creating user ID. The user of mkdtemp() is responsible for deleting the temporary directory and its contents when done with it.'
ben_vulpes: ah over is the key!
mod6: im getting pulled off here... i'ma try to circle back to this but...
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: an aborted run of vtron should not be able to put a caltrop for subsequent run to die on. this is imho elementary.
mod6: make_tmpdir($tdir);
mod6: main();
mod6: remove_tmpdir($tdir);
mod6: that's basically what happens ^
asciilifeform: mod6: what's make_tmpdir made of ?
mod6: and if you ^C the thing mid-way through the execution, you'll never hit remove_tmpdir
mod6: now, i can add an attempt to remove the thing before we even begin main(), but i thought we had discussed this. i'll have to dig up the old thread.
mod6: i don't have a chance right this moment to do that, will look tho when i can
asciilifeform: mod6: what actually ends up in $tdir ?
mod6: sub make_tmpdir { my ($dir) = @_; `mkdir -p $dir && chmod 0700 $dir` if !-d $dir or die "$dir exists! $!";
mod6: }
mod6: sub remove_tmpdir { my ($dir) = @_; `rm -rf $dir` if -d $dir;
mod6: }
asciilifeform: right but what's in $tdir
mod6: the keyring that gpg needs to run
asciilifeform: how do you create the ~name~ of the dir
mod6: my $tdir = get_homedir() . "/.gnupgtmp";
asciilifeform: umm
asciilifeform: no good. first of all suppose there are 2 concurrent runs of the vtron ( say this is a cuntoo pressing itself )
asciilifeform: second , as in the case discussed in the thread, if a run aborts, it creates a mine for next run to step on.
mod6: brb
asciilifeform: you can fix the second by erasing at the beginning of a run. but not the first.
asciilifeform: temp dir paths gotta be gensyms.
asciilifeform: ( make a string out of /dev/random crapola + current epoch time, say )
ben_vulpes: is mktemp widely installed enough to be used here?
asciilifeform: it's a gnu coreutil. so theoretically yes
asciilifeform: conceivably, like everything else, it is absent ~somewhere~ ( ... crapple ? )
ben_vulpes: yeah but fuck them in particular
ben_vulpes: iphones apparently vulnerable to SPECTRE too, hilariously
ben_vulpes: such sandbox very secure
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: ~all archs with instruction-reordering and cache, are
asciilifeform: semantics-changing optimization belongs in ~compiler~ (if even there), not in iron.
asciilifeform: a la vliw.
asciilifeform: bbbut noooo, gotta reorder, because Only A Terorrist Would expect microshit to write sane compiler...
asciilifeform: ( on vliw, there was a pipeline, but proggy was expected to fill it 'by hand' . a kind of 'stick shift'. if a sub-instr stepped on another's toes, it was a eggog, like div0 is on x86 , abort . )
asciilifeform: on the other hand, pipeline idea per se was a mistake; same kind of failure to invent dataflowism as dma
asciilifeform: !#s dma
a111: 99 results for "dma", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=dma
asciilifeform: ^ see also.
ben_vulpes: it all strikes me as so very silly on the surface but i have a weird lens of not having thought about any of the related shit until ~2013 and even then only through republican eyes
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: expand ?
ben_vulpes: i've never been burdened with the "This Is How Things Are" of the c-machine
asciilifeform: ( upstack : dma, interrupts, pipeline, instruction reorderer, 'hyperthreading', multiple buses, 'bridges' -- all are epicycles ( hey mircea_popescu ! ) from vonneumannism , where instructions 'push' (unrelated to stack concept) outputs, rather than 'pull' inputs as they oughta )
ben_vulpes: i only started thinking about compute because of bitcoin, and shortly after i started thinking about it in earnest (like maybe a month, six weeks something like that) you showed up in #b-a and /even at that point/ were talking about eg trinary circuits and computing fabric
ben_vulpes: then at that point the historical perspective was obviously necessary and i've simply never seen modern arch's as anything other than complexity madness in search of itty bitty performance gains on systems nobody can actually reason about
mircea_popescu: in other lulz from the road, "nombre ?" "credible" "apellido ?" "justin".
asciilifeform: credible?!
asciilifeform: picture scene from film 'idiocracy', where hero gets 'his name', 'Not Sure', tattooed on forehead
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: is there some way of doing iteration with the opcodes from ch4 ?
mircea_popescu: ad hoc pseudonym! no good ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you tell me
ben_vulpes: hey man i only figured out how conditionals worked today
asciilifeform: so ben_vulpes do you see a jump ?
asciilifeform: or for that matter any record kept of old instructions , that the thing could jump to ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764893 << yeah tis a problem ;/
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 09:56 diana_coman: which is perfectly fine with me for code; it's still grating for comments and I'm not sure how this will resolve, it sort of pushes comments out of code (to a place where one can read them as text not as code-which-they-are-not)
mircea_popescu: seems atm we uncovered the deep limit on literate code.
mircea_popescu: code and comments do not, actually mix ; the fault is entirely of bad but entrenched habits of code writers.
asciilifeform: i'ma disagree that the use of paper is 'bad habit'
asciilifeform: it differentiates man from monkey.
mircea_popescu: "we are incapable to reflow and here's a magic number instead" differentiates monkey from man
mircea_popescu: not the other way round.
asciilifeform: code. does. not. reflow.
asciilifeform: ( whynot, is not a bad question, it reduces to the absence of a solution to the tednelson problem -- how to point into a structure unambiguously, other than by line # )
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: yeah i don't
ben_vulpes: the mega-clue is "any seven numbers"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if true, this is == "code is not worth either writing or reading"
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: aha
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: hence http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764949
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 13:41 asciilifeform: diana_coman: 'best thing is never to have programmed at all' or how did socrates put it.
ben_vulpes: want to corroborate what appear to be facts before plowing down a possibly retarded path though
mircea_popescu: anyway, there's no possible solution here ; i expect the defacto result will be that patches will consist of code, wrapped 80, including 0 comments, plus blogposts, consisting of commentary, with some haphazard code reference.
mircea_popescu: this is a sad state of affairs, as it limits v utility drastically ; neverthless -- commentary will be ok, long predated either v or code. code is more fragile.
mircea_popescu: needs halp.
asciilifeform: i'ma carry right on wrapping comments to 80, like father and grandfather did and like the gods intended.
asciilifeform: and anyone who dunlike it , can jump in a lake.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and write too little of them and too sparse and lose out to the other variant in the end.
mircea_popescu: there's a reason your father+grandfather haven't amounted to as much of a fart as a workable os.
asciilifeform: in the end man can lose out to cockroaches also.
mircea_popescu: not even good. vaguely workable.
mircea_popescu: in this case, atavism just loses out.
asciilifeform: 'do from cause, not purpose' necessarily includes not giving rat's arse re 'what will lose out to one day when sun burns out'
mircea_popescu: certainly.
asciilifeform: so far the folx who code on paper, wrote ffa, and the folx who wrote on display -- wrote what.
mircea_popescu: except that day will be rather sooner than that.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway you turn it, the concept of magic number's not defensible.
asciilifeform: 'мы вас похороним' !11 (tm)(r)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: rails -- have gauge. and spacetime itself appears to come with 'magic #s'.
asciilifeform: like it , or not.
asciilifeform: i won't disagree with abolishing'em when ~possible~ cleanly
mircea_popescu: hey, all i do is predict, i dun like or dislike.
mod6: asciilifeform picture scene from film 'idiocracy', where hero gets 'his name', 'Not Sure', tattooed on forehead << his arm, but yeah, great movie.
asciilifeform: but 'throw out yer printer' won't fly.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform somehow you jump from "my printer is shit, doesn't work properly" to "either magic number or throw out printer"
mircea_popescu: how about you know, fixing your printer so it works ?
asciilifeform: so it can create paper of arbitrary width ?!
mircea_popescu: if that's what it actually takes, yes.
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu makes one -- i'll buy
shinohai: !!up gabriel_laddel
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: in any case, here's the logic : the proximate cause of the failure of "computer science" to amount to 0 (not epsilon, 0) since its inception is strictly due to poor treatment of comments as 2nd class item in code.
mircea_popescu: until this is resolved, the perennial results will repeat.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform should I even bother stopping in then?
mircea_popescu: it's actually SO BAD that people go re-implement the same damned X thing for the 90th time as a substitute of commentary ; and nobody looking understands wtf that is.
gabriel_laddel: and can I call M a NOT-LISPM?
mod6: <+asciilifeform> no good. first of all suppose there are 2 concurrent runs of the vtron ( say this is a cuntoo pressing itself ) << yeah, concurrent runs of my vtron are a no-go.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i can't at all disagree , re comments
asciilifeform: and overall culture of illiteracy
mod6: <+asciilifeform> second , as in the case discussed in the thread, if a run aborts, it creates a mine for next run to step on. << try to realize that this is on-purpose. im certain that we've had this discussion before and what exists is the outcome of that discussion.
mircea_popescu: this is the problem. you can't disagree with my theory and i have no practical solution for your pain.
asciilifeform: sorta why i favour the structure-editor and store-EVERYTHING-as-sexprs approach.
asciilifeform: it's the gordian cut.
mircea_popescu: as i say -- i see no way out here ; we'll end up with the v-code + blog-commentary ostrich-camel and god help us./
asciilifeform: it does however mean letting finally go of the vt100.
asciilifeform: and of 'plain text' idea.
mircea_popescu: sexprs for everything might work
asciilifeform: it's the only thing that works.
mircea_popescu: and there is no such thing as fucking "plain text"
asciilifeform: FINALLY
ben_vulpes: mod6: you gotta quote chapter and verse from the logs to support "outcome of that discussion".
mod6: i know, i haven't had a chance to look yet.
mod6: too busy.
mod6: anyway, im fine with changing whatever, just as long as we all agree.
ben_vulpes: logs save us from the "but i thought we agreed" floppy meatsack memory.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-12-25#1353298 << e.g.
a111: Logged on 2015-12-25 23:10 asciilifeform: because, again, the whole 'plain text' jwzism and the attendant retardation. somehow 'lines' are a thing.
mod6: and the details of what the change is to do are clear so I can implement them as such.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform which part of trilema is plaintext ? the part where it says fuckyoui or the part where it says fuckyou((norly)) ?
ben_vulpes: mod6: make a disposable tempdir like stans original and my port. i don't know whence this 'agree', stan's original was clear enough.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> logs save us from the "but i thought we agreed" floppy meatsack memory. << i feel ya. if you wanna help me dig, that'd be awesome.
mircea_popescu: anyway bbs
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ~none of it, it's html, neh
mod6: my vtron has been discussed very much over the last 2+ years. i remember many disucssions where rules popped out.
mod6: i hope you're not trying to say that im simply making this up
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: do pop in, do speak
gabriel_laddel: aite. but ftr you can ASSIGN me stuff that I will do. eg, leaving CA, finding job. Eventually was convinced.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: and call it what you want, but imho it'll be moar appreciated as linux distro, than to label 'lispm'
gabriel_laddel: how about lispm-prime
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: this is good to hear.
trinque: gabriel_laddel: honestly why should anyone give a fuck to improve you.
trinque: what are you, someone's girlfriend here?
asciilifeform: trinque: barf all you like, the d00d nearly made a working cuntoo
trinque: are you kidding?
gabriel_laddel: trinque girlfri^H^H^Hintern
asciilifeform: trinque: iirc he did have a standalone gentoo-cooker neh
ben_vulpes: mod6: it's not a personal attack, i disagree that i agreed that v.pl was doing the Right Thing in leaving ~/.gnupgtmp hanging around
asciilifeform: the misfortunate thing is that he labeled it 'lispm'
trinque: who gives a shit. I made mine because it was trivial and I didn't want to hear about it anymore
asciilifeform: trinque: out of curiosity, do the two of you know one another from meatspace ? and hated for 20yrs ? or how
trinque: to date the guy has produced zero anyone uses, and I dunno why anyone entertains the larping and dick-pulling
trinque: asciilifeform: I don't need extra reasons to hate the useless
asciilifeform: trinque: he's what, 19 ?
gabriel_laddel: 25
asciilifeform: asciilifeform also had not produced anything useful to the republic, at 25
trinque: guy pops in to give monologues about his psychological needs and that's it, and was ever it
ben_vulpes: point also is not absolute age but years bouncing off the republic
asciilifeform: at 25 asciilifeform unsuccessfully peddled an industrial automation linux+sbcl+proggy-in-a-crate actually quite reminiscent of gabriel_laddel's thing
trinque: either to affirm some nonsense or surface against which to act out
asciilifeform: trinque: he asked 'gimme useful item to do' neh
trinque: he was almost, maybe, sort of going to do an archiver and pdf-to-texter
trinque: where's that, or was that just a paste one day when he needed a self-esteem boost
gabriel_laddel: never pdf to text, but yes, archiver, NN via FG, RSA impl in CL, yes linux distro
trinque: I dunno how this one idiot kid slipped through the crucify-the-useless process
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: here's a shot : take this http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760563 needleman-wunsch, and turn it into a standalone ( use sbcl's save-lisp-and-die knob, say ) difftron util. come up with own format.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 05:34 asciilifeform: >>>>> https://archive.is/jMMqT
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: also if you have an rsa, post it plox
trinque: gabriel_laddel: so where the fuck are these then.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform sorry, this is tasks I HAVE ACCEPTED onto stack.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: what's yer medium-ter
asciilifeform: m item
asciilifeform: i.e. what brings gabriel_laddel to #t ?
gabriel_laddel: the order I was anticipating was: M release for tmsr (free, obo), then NNFG, then RSA. lobbes has done/ is doing archiver
gabriel_laddel: I'm here for the lispm, and staying for the FUCKGOATS
asciilifeform: what's NNFG ?
gabriel_laddel: training a NN on FG output to see if it trains faster so I can sell them
trinque: this is jam-tomorrow in asciilifeform's parlance eh?
asciilifeform: trinque: not as if we're awash in recruits. we have here this 1legged d00d, says he wants to fight.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: didja ever download the 1GB example FG bin ?
gabriel_laddel: yes.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: tried training on it ? vs , say, on /dev/urandom
asciilifeform: what was result ?
asciilifeform: ( because asciilifeform actually did a very similar experiment as a student, in early 2000s )
gabriel_laddel: I never got a chance bc fighting all the idiots in CA myself. Same with archiver.Got banned before was able to host in house someone OK'd me for.
asciilifeform: do you now have a comp and able to work ?
trinque: I lived in Portland among the pantsuit cunts
asciilifeform: i presume yes ?
gabriel_laddel: yes.
trinque: left. ben_vulpes also left.
asciilifeform: trinque: fwiw i have never set foot in those lands. only met east cunts.
trinque: what kind of appeal is this. "oh but I have limitations"
gabriel_laddel: trinque I'm in ohio now, fwiw
gabriel_laddel: you said LEAVE DUMBASS. I thought about it -- left.
asciilifeform: aaanyway gabriel_laddel knows how to do this experiment. i look forward to hearing result
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform we're cohered.
asciilifeform: there we go.
trinque: heh, so then. quit stimulants, dumbass. and I'll consider removing the negrate.
asciilifeform: maybe d00d sobers up for a day and does a job !
asciilifeform: hell knows it's happened befoar
shinohai: !~step 1
jhvh1: shinohai: Error: "step" is not a valid command.
asciilifeform: ( and given that i ain't his personal physician , i dun even care if he does the job while tripping , or while sober, so long as he does )
trinque: hey after mircea_popescu's various whallops on me about weed, I gave up daily caffeine even.
shinohai: !~step1
jhvh1: 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
trinque: wiser folks hitting you on the head is a kindness.
asciilifeform: trinque: i'd bet d00d has spells of sobriety, he has afaik already outlived the expected life of a serious meth aficionado
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform neh! i have a magic box, into which i pour the transcendent substance that makes trilema. it comes out as ascii yes, but how is it plain.
asciilifeform: in asciilifeform's head 'plain text' means strictly v100, i.e. this convenient (too convenient) item 'the customer Got Accustomed To'(tm)(r) in 1950s and is old, tired, being asked to do all sorts of contradictory things like sane diffability, structure-preserving edits, etc
mircea_popescu: in my head, "plain text" means something else.
asciilifeform: whereas it's just an array of asciiola and a few control chars (e.g. lf)
mircea_popescu: formally : a stackless, hapless grammar incapable of recursion operating upon a certain finite symbol list.
mircea_popescu: heapless*
asciilifeform: dunno that the meat parser is stackless
mircea_popescu: that's mp-plaintext, almost exactly your ada
asciilifeform: ( or heapless. consider, where do the external symbols get pulled from . )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i suspect i should have said single stack.
asciilifeform: single yes.
mircea_popescu: yes.
asciilifeform: it's rather like... ffacalc, lol
mircea_popescu: indeed.
mircea_popescu: here, from random article : Sorry, furfies looking for group, I guess I fucked this one up for you ((But had you NOT complained about it -- who knows, maybe you'd still have PMs available ?)).\n\nPS. Today as in <A href=http://trilema.com/2014/askfm-laid-bare-or-whats-half-a-million-uniques-to-you/>2014</a>,
mircea_popescu: that is the "plaintext", that comes out as the other plaintext, displayed (via the ~yet other~ plaintext, the html)
asciilifeform: ok that'd be a platonic plaintextitude, lol, not a physical item.
mircea_popescu: i guess!
asciilifeform: speaking of...
asciilifeform: !!up pehbot
deedbot: pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !A .BE7EA8B353CF33FA1226E6F87F97CE980353879CA9F00107C2DE4E123ECBE000.7D2AF9FAA2CD4F3CCFE8489B9BE1FE5F3A600D4E1E72A7C0041F0B793848FB2F.FA55F3F5459A9E799FD0913737C3FCBE74C01A9C3CE54F80083E16F27091F65F X #
pehbot: asciilifeform: 5CF3CFFB385F801408DFF1BF9D66B57C4B5C2ED8E896811D36162BD33B626D7E
asciilifeform: ^ preview/puzzle pre-ch6. solve what X does.
mircea_popescu: which is why the whole "with mine owne eyes" screams were all about re previous pass of this, gpg-plaintext.
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: i sadly lacked the formalism to usefully express it then. but now -- have.
asciilifeform: soo analogously 'plaintext' would be 'the integers'(tm)(r) whereas asciilifeform's conception would then be the finite-bitness integers one actually gets to use on a comp
mod6: so previously, and im still digging in the logs...
mod6: the idea behind leaving the .gnupgtmp around after execution, is there because i wanted it to be there. not weather this is the Right Thing or not.
mod6: its basically a failure state -- .gnupgtmp should only be around if something FAILED.
mircea_popescu: mod6 any particular reason to want ? aid debugging ? or ?
mircea_popescu: aha
asciilifeform: mod6: the most serious bug is not even the failure to delete the tempdir, but that every run of the vtron uses ~same one~
asciilifeform: mod6: it makes, e.g., parallelly running vtrons on same box, impossible
mod6: and if it did fail, then perhaps one can go and look at what went on -- at the time, there were a lot of seals that didn't verify for instance.
mod6: i shouldn't say a lot. from time to time, one of alf's previous key ones would creep into ones flow or whatever, and you may want to check for yourself weather it verifies or not. or what gnupg might have been up to while executing v.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764935 << prolly worth it, "re-examine history with new theoretical framework"
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 13:34 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764882 << i'm quite tempted to give the archive another combing and make a sequel to my http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165 item
asciilifeform: mod6: imho a good debugism would be a flag that forces the printing to stderr of all external proggy (gpg, gnupatch) invocations , and their args
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha!
mircea_popescu: mod6 i suspect the idea is sound, but maybe the posixism of "single fixed file" dun serve
mod6: anyway, if you see a .gnupgtmp, something failed. either the software failed, or the user interrupted the thing. either way, the responsibility has been on the user to determine if he should delete ~/.gnupgtmp or not.
mircea_popescu: as he says, there be the logs.
mod6: now, for the concurrent part... now that's something I never did consider.
mod6: before i ever 'green light' that kinda use of my vtron, i'd certainly like to test it myself etc. and ya, that dir would have to be unique.
mircea_popescu: mod6 why not use the system logs instead ?
mod6: maybe mktmpdir is sound for that. however, i remember discussing that before as well..and one fear that i had is that if you use mktmpdir, then you have a /tmp/23429adfsew32 dir.
mod6: which worries me about /tmp being flushed mid, or at anytime during execution.
mod6: sorry, lemme read back here. was just trying to type there.
asciilifeform: mod6: afaik this dun actually happen on any known unix
trinque: I don't think there's ever a case where , yeap
asciilifeform: if you have a handle to it, it dun get zapped
asciilifeform: ( thinkaboutit, tmp would be entirely useless if this were not so )
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: afaik this dun actually happen on any known unix << this the rub tho. have to make sure that it actually /NEVER/ happens. i can't have people failing in anyway with this thing.
mircea_popescu: but he's stuck managing fucking state.
asciilifeform: mod6: you can't make sure that the mains cord dun get pulled mid-press either
asciilifeform: for so long as vtron uses gpg shell-out, it's stuck with the tmp dir crapola
mod6: the good news is, hopefully, your pgptron will be built into any new vtrons
asciilifeform: afaik the best known solution is the one i used -- use the script lang's purpose-made lib for the item
mod6: no libs
asciilifeform: ( i do not know from memory, what perl's is )
mod6: anyway, we'll figure something out. that part im not worried about.
asciilifeform: ... or make own.
mod6: it sounds like my idea of "have something of a corpus to look at after failure" isn't as handy as simply just throwing it out.
asciilifeform: this corpus should consist 100% of stderr output.
asciilifeform: rather than rubbish left in tmp
asciilifeform: user should not have to look in tmp.
mod6: its not rubbish
mod6: and i don't think people want 1Mb of shit dumped to stdout
mod6: it's the ~keyring~
asciilifeform: wait why is it mb of shit
asciilifeform: see, asciilifeform's orig trick with tmp was ~specifically~ to abolish the gpg keyring nonsense
asciilifeform: i don't want to see it. ever. if i'm seeing it, vtron is broken !
mod6: and here's where we come full circle. :]
mod6: i gotta find these logs. im actually now convinced that we've discussed this very item not just once, but maybe even 3 or 4 times.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764975 << very sad fucking item, i would fire the producer. contains "if he were" boilerplate verbiage copy-pasted in there, for utter shame.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 15:19 asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/o6uML/?raw=true << he confessed, 'pleabargained'.
asciilifeform: in fact, if we weren't planning to take gpg behind the shed and shoot it, i'd publish my keyring-abolition patch ( gpg then DEMANDS pubkey FILE on cmdline for any op that uses one. ditto privates. )
mod6: anyway, i appreciate all the feedback. its obvious that there is passion to get this part of my vtron right.
mod6: lemme break off here for a minute, i'll keep digging up the logs to prove we talked this over.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's an autogenned item, aha
mod6: bbs.
mircea_popescu: goes well with the "didn't even afford paralelconstruct". this is some seriously low effort "job".
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764988 << good idea.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 15:40 mod6: I went through each one, looks to be doing the sane thing. I'm probably going to write it up in a little post that can be looked at, as opposed to trying to explain all of that in 3 lines of irc.
asciilifeform: old bureaucrat, unpopular ( perhaps ) at office, picked as scapegoat for the infector leak of that year
asciilifeform: fell over like a bowling pin after 'shown instrments'
asciilifeform: ( h. martin )
asciilifeform: signed, i suspect, what was put in front of him to sign, without even reading.
mircea_popescu: why should he give a shit in either case.
mircea_popescu: old guy, etc.
asciilifeform: there's 2 ways those go.
asciilifeform: this one -- went the 2nd.
asciilifeform: ( 1st looks like http://btcbase.org/log/2014-02-19#517160 . )
a111: Logged on 2014-02-19 19:41 asciilifeform: russian folk rhyme: 'Дедушка в поле гранату нашел. Взял он ее, к сельсовету пошел. Дернул колечко, кинул в окно. Дедушка старый — ему все равно.'
asciilifeform: !A .1.0*#
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
asciilifeform: in other lulz, http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2018/Jan/12 >> ahahahahahaha the amd fritz chip, apparently finally killed
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-14#1555295 << re:.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-14 16:10 kmalkki: apu2 (with AMD PSP) does respond properly to JTAG IDCODE
asciilifeform: '... stack-based overflow in the function EkCheckCurrentCert. This function is called from TPM2_CreatePrimary with user controlled data - a DER encoded [6] endorsement key (EK) certificate stored in the NV storage....'
trinque: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=AMD-PSP-Disable-Option << totally unrelated, pay no attention
asciilifeform: trinque: dun help with bios-jtagging tho. it gotta be disabled AT RESET
asciilifeform: which you naturally can't do from bios.
asciilifeform: ( uefi dun get read until close to end of warmup process )
trinque: I'm sure it doesn't work. meant only to marketing-work
asciilifeform: however with the 0day -- might be doable.
asciilifeform: (until patched.)
asciilifeform: 'A TLV (type-length-value) structure is parsed and copied on to the parent stack frame. Unfortunately, there are missing bounds checks, and a specially crafted certificate can lead to a stack overflow...' etc
asciilifeform: btw what does trb's ssl do with crafted der-encoded derpery ?
asciilifeform: anybody try ?
mod6: ok. asciilifeform, ben_vulpes, mircea_popescu, phf, all others interested, here's the orig thread (as ben_vulpes also found earlier): http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/76gSk/?raw=true
mod6: It seems that asciilifeform has been saying the same thing all along.
mod6: And I've taken a bit of a different direction, perhaps because of 'File::Tempdir' or some nonsense.
mod6: So here's what I'll do: I'll revisit this, and try to come up with a unique tempdir. This tempdir is to be used exactly once. Created at run time. Removed at the end of run time. If execution fails or is interrupted, nothing will be done. It'll be left hanging there until the user removes it manually.
mod6: in the case of failure, i could try to remove the tmpdir during the 'Death()' call or something. But with interrupted execution, there's no way to know when the interrupt is coming. Nothing to do about it here.
ben_vulpes: it is fine to leave the tempdir in place so long as it is uniquely named
ben_vulpes: the important thing is that it not be the same tempdir every time so that interrupted executions don't block the next execution
mod6: Ok, will look into a better way to handle this. I appreciate your passionate want to make this better.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764988 << good idea. << fwiw, i'll be working on this to ensure that the bug fix is correct.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 15:40 mod6: I went through each one, looks to be doing the sane thing. I'm probably going to write it up in a little post that can be looked at, as opposed to trying to explain all of that in 3 lines of irc.
mod6: then ill dig into the tmpdir thing. i want to ensure that the bug fix i've made is correct before I proceed.
asciilifeform: neato mod6 . thx for putting in the sweat.
ben_vulpes: yeah really, muchas gracias mod6
mod6: <3
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763210 << once i realized what was going on...
a111: Logged on 2018-01-03 17:17 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763202 << i've been thinking of abolishing the artifact where a 0 stays on the stack after the 'else' branch. it'd require only 1 extra state variable ( a WBool )
ben_vulpes: dude The20YearIRCloud the fuck even is the point of a bouncer that's constantly disconnecting
asciilifeform: what makes you think it's a bouncer, ben_vulpes
ben_vulpes: i thought that's what irccloud advertised
ben_vulpes: a modern IRC client that keeps you connected, with none of the baggage
ben_vulpes: possibly just normal idiot browserclient!
asciilifeform: 'Stay connected, chat from anywhere, and never miss a message.'
asciilifeform: lolyes
ben_vulpes: i am having just a terrible time with the else-clause pushing a zero to the stack
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: hm ?
asciilifeform: !!up pehbot
deedbot: pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !A .0{[foo]}{[bar]}_ Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: bar
asciilifeform: !A .0{[foo]}{[bar]} Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: bar0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes really hates typing '_' or wat
ben_vulpes: !A .1{[foo]}{[bar]}_
pehbot: ben_vulpes: foo
ben_vulpes: !A .1{[foo]}{[bar]}
pehbot: ben_vulpes: foo
asciilifeform: !A .1{[foo]}{[bar]}_ Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: foo
asciilifeform: !A .1{[foo]}{[bar]} Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: foo0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
ben_vulpes: hm
asciilifeform: this is an engineering tension, ben_vulpes ; i'll grant that the trailing _ is ugly. however it makes the mechanism simpler, all { are handled in exactly same way, and ditto all }
asciilifeform: however the _ can be made to disappear, at the cost of an added moving part. i will ask ben_vulpes to draw this moving part, as exercise.
asciilifeform: feel free to submit a patch.
ben_vulpes: wbool flag, you mentioned iirc
asciilifeform: so draw it.
ben_vulpes: gotta have working model in head first before patching!
asciilifeform: ( what we have right now, is that we have no 'if-clause' or 'else-clause', physically, they are exactly the same thing, simply happen to be a pair of'em )
asciilifeform: a { takes a value off the stack and, if it is 0 : ignores further ops until it gets a ~matching~ } , then leaves a 1 on the stack; if it is a 1, proceeds to the next op , and when a closing } is found , leaves a 0 on the stack.
asciilifeform: and btw i gotta take back http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763202 -- in that i have nfi how to 'abolish the _' while making nested conditionals still work.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-03 17:07 phf: using the boolean we execute an if/else branch which either swaps the two numbers and drops the top most '_, or drops the top most without swapping _. the final drop _ is an artifact of conditional implementation that always leaves a value on the stack.
asciilifeform: grrrr http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763210 i mean.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-03 17:17 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763202 << i've been thinking of abolishing the artifact where a 0 stays on the stack after the 'else' branch. it'd require only 1 extra state variable ( a WBool )
asciilifeform: aaaactually i can think of 1 way :
asciilifeform: if { were to LEAVE THE SELECTOR on the stack , instead of eating it
asciilifeform: then the optional else-clause could be preceded by a ~
asciilifeform: and trigger on the negation of that selfsame selector.
asciilifeform: otherwise , if we do not want the else-clause, we drop _ it.
asciilifeform: phf, ben_vulpes , mircea_popescu , et al ^
asciilifeform: so {[foo]}{[bar]} would then instead look like {[foo]}~{[bar]}_ grrrrrr
ben_vulpes: i has it!
ben_vulpes: sweet
asciilifeform: hm?
ben_vulpes: a solution!
asciilifeform: post?
ben_vulpes: well, gonna reread vpatch for ch04 and then submit with my seal but sure, gimme a sec
asciilifeform: patch on top of ch5 plox
asciilifeform: or it won't go into ch6 (or anywhere)
ben_vulpes: i haven't bitten off the patch yet, and might not get to it by the time you release ch6, this all takes me a lot longer than phf or lobbes
asciilifeform: consider describing it here then
ben_vulpes: oh sorry sorry, i meant a solution to the ch4 puzzle
asciilifeform: point being, if you patch on an existing ffa_calc, it'll have to be reground
asciilifeform: aaaaaaaa lok
asciilifeform: i thought ben_vulpes was speaking of a soln to the branch thing
ben_vulpes: nah, dun expect such of me; i draft plans for field construction of catapaults i don't invent them
asciilifeform: dunno, this item is in principle accessible to the n00b
asciilifeform: it dun use no fancy book-larnin'
ben_vulpes: i'll noodle on it as appropriate, sure
ben_vulpes: (ch 4 puzzle accessible to noob as well, but still took me much grinding of headgears)
asciilifeform: so let's hear ben_vulpes's answ
asciilifeform: or rather, feed to pehbot
asciilifeform: !!pehbot .4.3.6.ABCD.FF.0.1 ( ben_vulpes's solution goes here ) Q
asciilifeform: !A .4.3.6.ABCD.FF.0.1 ( ben_vulpes's solution goes here ) Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000FF000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ABCD000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000600000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000030000000000000000000000000000000000
asciilifeform: ... oughta output ABCD etc
ben_vulpes: oh man i didn't even test against hex values
asciilifeform: why would it matter
asciilifeform: recall how constants work to begin with
ben_vulpes: i know that it shouldn't, but i do like to actually test things
ben_vulpes: lest i ironclad myself
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch5_egypt/tree/ffa/ffacalc/ffa_calc.adb#L232 << for reference
ben_vulpes: !A .4.3.6.ABCD.FF.0.1 ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
pehbot: ben_vulpes: 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ABCD
asciilifeform: !A .4.3.6.0.FF.0.1 ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000FF
asciilifeform: !A .4.3.6.0.0.0.1 ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000006
asciilifeform: !A .4.3.0.0.0.0.1 ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000004
asciilifeform: !A .0.3.0.0.0.0.1 ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003
asciilifeform: !A .0.0.0.0.0.0.1 ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
asciilifeform: !A .0.0.0.0.0.0.0 ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
asciilifeform: unsurprisingly, it worx
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes is a winrar
asciilifeform: now he can look at the 'official' answr in ch5.
ben_vulpes: caftans for the caftan god
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: why `int' for EOF and `Integer' for Sadness_Code ?
asciilifeform: no good reason.
asciilifeform: ( 'int' reflects that it gets used strictly in the c ffi , was orig idea )
ben_vulpes: hmk
asciilifeform: os.ads/adb is to corral all of the unix-specific uglies
asciilifeform: it gets replaced wholesale when porting to, e.g., a dedicated micro
asciilifeform: ( yes there will be a mips32 etc )
shinohai: http://archive.is/A0xiZ <<< How Roy Moore deals with the opposition.
asciilifeform: 'Tina Johnson, who first came to public notice for accusing Senate candidate Roy Moore of grabbing her in his office in the early 1990s' << how to parse this sentence ?
asciilifeform: [accusing ....] [in the early 1990s] ?
asciilifeform: or .... [accusing ... in the early 1990s] ?
asciilifeform: i.e. when was the accusation ?
shinohai: It's Alabama journalism, so don't expect too much ....
ben_vulpes: very specific with the accusation history too, in the office is where she accused him!
asciilifeform: no but this q has an answer
asciilifeform: what is it
ben_vulpes: she went to wal-mart! crucial detail!
ben_vulpes: tunes out
asciilifeform: walmartistan! 'filtration system, a marvel to behoooold...'(tm)(r)
ben_vulpes: hey asciilifeform didja have any objections to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1759143 ?
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 04:52 trinque: why not have one file, manifest, and you edit it, then vdiff the whole shebang.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i dun recall that this scheme was ever fleshed out
asciilifeform: into something to which i'd have , or not have, an objection
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1759146 seemed pretty fleshed out to me
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 04:52 mircea_popescu: trinque because it'll get a mess ; ben_vulpes it's just a counter. increments 1 from prev line. shall i do a sample pastebin ?
asciilifeform: it doesn't solve the fundamental problem
asciilifeform: which is that ~moves~ are ugly and info-destroying
asciilifeform: i oughta be able to take a 1MB text file, cut it in the middle, and swap the halves, and the resulting diff to be a few lines.
ben_vulpes: different problem, different problem.
trinque: question there wasn't just moves. it was how to ever have two patches with same parent, that edited different files, end up same item.
asciilifeform: nope. same problem, in essence.
asciilifeform: trinque: consider how i solved this in trb.
asciilifeform: ( 'this' being 'same parent ... end up same item' )
trinque: the opacity of this question is by now baffling to me.
asciilifeform: let's concretize
asciilifeform: look at the graph in http://btcbase.org/patches
trinque: already has been.
asciilifeform: aite , if trinque gets it , i won't waste logspace
trinque: you edit db.cpp. I edit main.cpp. how does someone now use both of those pieces of work in a 3rd patch.
asciilifeform: by copying the db.cpp from asciilifeform's tree, the main.cpp from trinque's , and making sure they do not semantically conflict , then vdiffing.
asciilifeform: bang, valid coalescing.
asciilifeform: just like how, e.g., asciilifeform_and_now_we_have_eatblock coalesces mod6_fix_dumpblock_params and asciilifeform_ver_now_5_4_and_irc_is_gone_and_now_must_give_ip
ben_vulpes: what irks me about this is that one can make a patch that depends on a state of the codebase that is not a valid press.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the only item required to be a hook on which a valid press hangs, is individual patch
ben_vulpes: or to put it a different way, that one *must* create an invalid state in order to patch atop two divergent patches.
asciilifeform: how you make a vdiff is yer own biznis, can make with magnetic needle for all anybody cares
trinque: how does this not expand to still more antecedents dragged into child patch as time goes on?
asciilifeform: trinque: why would anything end up 'dragged in'
asciilifeform: can draw a hypothetical for asciilifeform's enlightenment plox ?
trinque: patch A1 and A2 are peers, happened to different files with same starting codebase state. you proposed writing a B that encompases whatever changes plus the bodies of A1 and A2.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: think of it this way : EVERY time you edit ANYTHING, you created 'invalid' state, i.e. one that could never have been the result of a sequence of presses of previously-existing patches !
asciilifeform: trinque: if B needs A1 and A2, it naturally gets parented by both. if it needs instead modified A1' and A2' , then naturally each of those is parented by the respective A1 or A2
asciilifeform: there's no particular reason for anything extraneous to get draggedin
asciilifeform: i am so far failing to see the mega-problem
asciilifeform: i pointedly do NOT agree that 'having to use an external tool like cp command' is a problem. for fuckssake you have to use a non-vtron tool to edit the coad ! vtron dun replace emacs.
trinque: you do not see how it's fundamentally retarded to consider db.cpp a distinct thing, rather than the scroll "trb" as the *thing*
asciilifeform: trinque: if you really hate files, you are welcome to make the whole proggy 1 file
asciilifeform: this will then reflect the desired semantics.
asciilifeform: but do not try to cripple MY programs into 'being 1 file'.
asciilifeform: or ask writers of books to dispense with chapters
asciilifeform: cutting items into named parts, is useful, ffs
asciilifeform: i think i grasp what trinque wants : for vtron to actually reflect the semantics of the code being juggled
asciilifeform: this is not actually possible in a general way, it'd have to ~understand~ cpp, ada, cl, whatevers
trinque: db.cpp is nothing by itself, other than "ono this file was too big"
trinque: sure it is; I proposed before that the antecedent hash ought to be the hash of the concatenation
trinque: to date no one has critiqued that view directly.
asciilifeform: this TAKES AWAY detail that is currently preserved.
asciilifeform: and imposes nonsensical constraint that would not otherwise be imposed.
trinque: nonsense indeed.
asciilifeform: patches that do not touch db.cpp , in any way shape or form, should not lock it into a state or depend on a particular state of it
trinque: I do not need to edit the fucking thing to depend on a particular state of it
asciilifeform: trinque: your tree ends up a spaghetti of radiating strands that can never recoalesce.
trinque: I am not going to sidestep onto that point. I made one, have anything to say to it?
asciilifeform: that it completely thermonukes the usefulness of v, to me personally.
asciilifeform: and i'ma have nothing to do with any project that makes use of such a system.
asciilifeform: want moar ? or get the idea
asciilifeform: take for example http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected . in properly working v, it ONLY depends on db.cpp being a particular hash . and does NOT lock you into anything else being anything else in particular.
ben_vulpes: the point that trinque is making is that you can change other files in such a way that ruins maxint_locks
asciilifeform: if instead it demanded that your tree, to apply it, be bitwise-identical to asciilifeform's tree when he made it -- you could only build on this patch if you reground ALL of EVERYONE's work every single fucking time
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: yes and this is coarse error in pilotage. THIS, not the fact that v permits you.
asciilifeform: knife will cut artery as well as sausage. not knife's job,to know what it cuts.
trinque: we come to a deep political disagreement there
trinque: the more constraints against idiocy the better.
asciilifeform: think, if EVERY patch requires global regrind of all of world history, you ain't using v, may as well throw out all of the unnecessary equipment -- you're passing a monolithic turd around
trinque: there can be multiple trees just fine in that world
asciilifeform: i will not tie OWN hands to possibly constrain some idiot somewhere.
trinque: hasn't yet been any reason someone benefits by having your edit to maxlocks but having done something batshit to say, a file db.cpp depends upon
asciilifeform: if trb tree can continue to look EXACTLY like http://btcbase.org/patches ( with new leaves growing ) -- your vtron is usable. if not -- not.
asciilifeform: trinque: the fact that the patch gets to be small, readable, and cleanly coalesceable . it correctly reflects the fact that it nonconflicts with items outside of db.cpp .
asciilifeform: it makes no superfluous constraints .
asciilifeform: superflous constraints, 'just in case', is how the talmudists ended up the way they are.
asciilifeform: y'know how this ends,trinque, it ends with having to line yer house with rope ('eruv'), pay some d00d to dial a modem to turn yer stove on and off...
asciilifeform: but i'ma rewind upstack : trinque is entirely free to begin using this type of v right now ! by coalescing whole proggy into 1 file. then he can see what ends up happening to his tree.
asciilifeform: that's what 'hash the codebase' equals. 1 file.
ben_vulpes: i'm going to tap out, will wait for mircea_popescu to pour some more fuel on this one.
asciilifeform: srsly i dunget why all of you lot so much want to break v. it WORKS.
asciilifeform: and is SIMPLE .
ben_vulpes: can dig trench here or ten feet sideways, literally does not matter to me.
asciilifeform: and yes it relies on operators not to do blitheringly idiotic things. this is why v is possible in tmsr and not at microshit.
asciilifeform: ( and moreover, if operators INSIST on committing war crimes, it makes cleanup trivial. called negrate. )
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: arguing has honed how i see the problem at least
ben_vulpes: not going to go break everything, at least today.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765599 << I'm not dignifying this shit.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 23:48 asciilifeform: srsly i dunget why all of you lot so much want to break v. it WORKS.
asciilifeform: it's a fact. it works.
asciilifeform: the patches are readable because they are minimal, and local changes stay local.
asciilifeform: and at the risk of repeating , trinque can ~already~ do his style, in the existing v. whereas asciilifeform can't do worth shit in a trinque-style v.
asciilifeform: mod6's 'makefiles' was able to cleanly build on 'asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected' , without regrinding anything. i still fail to understand what would have been gained by forcing mod6 to ~manually~ regrind the entire history of entire fucking world in order to produce 'makefiles' ( and for the latter to consequently weigh a megabyte , instead of 10kb !!! )
ben_vulpes: ehehehentirely unrelatedly, asciilifeform, what's with the odd capitalization of mUx in ch4?
asciilifeform: because U
asciilifeform: i thought it was clear
trinque: first off, I wrote the makefiles, mod6 modified. speaking of political fog.
asciilifeform: i'ma summarize the v thing : if you have a proposed new v algo ; and it would turn my 1kB patches into 1MB, and my readable 3 lines into 100kLoc of ?#@%$*(@%% , and my trivial machine-diff-verifiable changes into 'why dontcha sit for 5 years doing eyeball-powered diff' -- it is NOT an improvement. and i won't touch it. sign it. sign anything made on it. etc
trinque: second, does my memory deceive or did the thing end up with a comment in an *unrelated file*
asciilifeform: trinque: you did , hm, didntcha
ben_vulpes: db.cpp, init.cpp, several
asciilifeform: does not recall who made each item unless said fact was preserved in nakme
asciilifeform: *nazme
asciilifeform: grr
asciilifeform: name
trinque: ben_vulpes: don't cloud the politics with facts!
asciilifeform: lol
ben_vulpes: but this is the magic political speshul case of a patch that ties together other patches for the political object that is a release!
asciilifeform: trinque: it in fact put comments in unrelated file. just as i described must be done to tie up strands, when i released v
asciilifeform: note that this is an item you have ~option~ of doing.
asciilifeform: if every patch were forced to do it, you could not have a tree at all -- only radiating spokes.
asciilifeform: try it yourself.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: there is nothing mechanically 'speshulcase' about it, the vtron has no dedicated execution path for it. it'sa patch like any other.
asciilifeform: and it is the correct way to coalesce strands.
trinque: this is nonsense. people can choose any prior state whatsoever as basis for a new patch.
asciilifeform: if asciilifeform misread trinque's scheme somewhere -- will reread. but my current understanding is that it is exactly equivalent to signing tarballs. like in dark ages.
trinque: it's certainly easier to criticize that way, isn't it
asciilifeform: you can sign tarballs right now. i dun see why to even use a vtron then.
asciilifeform: trinque: is the observation factual or not ?
asciilifeform: how does $scheme differ from the old practice of signing tars ?
trinque: you are *already* naming arbitrary antecedents in this ad hoc manner of ~meaningless~ junk edits that do not well convey why they happened by sitting there.
asciilifeform: but they aren't meaningless. they signify 'you will have ~this~ db.cpp and ~this~ db.h and ...'
trinque: I proposed two schemes to better model it, and actually like the second better. one was including the entire concatenation's hash in a vpatch. the second was being able to name arbitrary antecedent files without the requirement that diff material follows
asciilifeform: trinque: let's consider the 2nd then
asciilifeform: suppose this algo were in use. and it is time for trinque to write the 'makefiles' patch . how does the latter coalesce the strands ?
asciilifeform: ( btw does trinque have an existing variant-vtron that i can look at the output of ? )
trinque: by simply naming the files that would've received the junk-comments as antecedents, with hash of their expected state
trinque: there are two questions conflated here; 1) what is the expected state of the patient and 2) what is to be done to him
asciilifeform: understand, trinque , asciilifeform does not suffer from an irrational hatred of people who start with letter 't' , and thereby balk at $algo. asciilifeform genuinely does not see how it results in anything other than a http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765616 horror show.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-06 00:00 asciilifeform: i'ma summarize the v thing : if you have a proposed new v algo ; and it would turn my 1kB patches into 1MB, and my readable 3 lines into 100kLoc of ?#@%$*(@%% , and my trivial machine-diff-verifiable changes into 'why dontcha sit for 5 years doing eyeball-powered diff' -- it is NOT an improvement. and i won't touch it. sign it. sign anything made on it. etc
asciilifeform: hey trinque why dontcha write your variant vtron. then we'll talk about the output. rather than this headache.
asciilifeform: i promise to try it.
asciilifeform: this is what distinguishes us from the apes, we can do experiment, rather than argue over empty table.
trinque: certainly will
asciilifeform: >> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1759157 << see also!111
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 07:13 mircea_popescu: o the fuck he is!!! ie, the world's heavyweight champion. ayer explained that he's the ex wykeham professor of logic, and since they're both pre-eminent in their respective fields, how about they indulge in discourse rather than intercourse. oddly enough tyson accepted, and naomi campbell slipped out -- apparently undamaged enough by the experience to actually do those not-even-terrible shots with madonna.
asciilifeform: this goes for anybody else who has a crackpot alt-v
asciilifeform: post the coad!
asciilifeform: in unrealated noose, massive reorg on zoolag
asciilifeform: 5 ( possibly 6 ) -high
asciilifeform: anybody else see one ?
ben_vulpes: > 2018-01-06_00:29:50.97891 REORGANIZE
ben_vulpes: how are you determining dpeth of reorg?
asciilifeform: mistakenly, lol
asciilifeform: it's the typical 1.
asciilifeform: ( as shown by maxheight pre- and post- )
asciilifeform: i really gotta automate this 'meta' , the existing 'eyeball-powered' one is rather laughable.
asciilifeform: !!up luny
deedbot: luny voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: luny: who might you be ?
asciilifeform: !~later tell phf plox to snarf http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/ffa_ch4_ffacalc.vpatch.benvulpes.sig , ty
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: hey ben_vulpes didja ever sign ch3 ??
asciilifeform: i have a ch4 for ben_vulpes but not a ch3...
asciilifeform: or hm nm
asciilifeform: !~later tell phf plox to snarf http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/ffa_ch3_shifts.vpatch.benvulpes.sig .
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: if there's anybody else who signed , but not currently visible in http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch5_egypt in appropriate spot -- plox to write in.
asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/rvNE2/?raw=true << for convenience -- who i have so far.
ben_vulpes: figured that you would find it eventulolly
mircea_popescu: now let's see if this log can be caught up with.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765023 << sadly, not in this language. but otherwise, the german school is the canonical introduction ; read ye yer kant, then proceed to http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=frege (not the other fucking way around ; english is a liability to the thinking man, and the latter's accessibility a burden).
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 17:50 lobbes: In other incidental preguntas: mircea_popescu, can you recommend good "introductory" reading on the subject of thought classification? It seems like the obvious fundamental to improving my cognitive processes
mircea_popescu: and since this was mentioned : "kantian ethics", ie the item on which lazy-because-dumb-because-lazy-because-dumb-because esltards have gelled in their attempt to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764883 ie spuriously pretend "oh, WE ALREADY DID KANT!!" etc is about as relevant to the man's work as newtonian alchemy is relevant to newton's work.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 07:03 mircea_popescu: other than the lovely "if you launched all pantsuit in outer space, do you expect seti would manage to find any ?" putdown, valuable lesson from naggum : inept bureaucrats / insufferable cucks / other "people themselves" try to barnacle their inept nonsense (in original, scheme) on pre-existing "brand" (as they perceive it ; in the original -- lisp) for the transparently transactional reason that this way they "get to" (as th
mircea_popescu: so do not fucking dare read anything having any ENGLISH SOUNDING NAMES anywhere at any point involved, which includes the fucking best grip.
asciilifeform: watsa 'best grip' ?
mircea_popescu: absolute ban on english as an avenue to this much in the same way absolute ban to barking as an avenue to opera. i don't care if you're a dog and i don't care if barking comes naturally to you
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform job on movie set, ~handyman.
asciilifeform: tries to think of most recent englischer worth reading... ...turing??
mircea_popescu: hey, there's plenty, just not really on the topic [i inferred him to have] asked.
mircea_popescu: but yes -- russian translations of kant, fichte, heidegger, husserl, spinoza, frege absolutely acceptable ; heck, even ro ones are fine. french is getting iffy.
asciilifeform: found eng frege ~inedible
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's a place where he was integrated into the borg, but it's a dubious weld.
asciilifeform: and come to think of it, damn near any eng trans of substantially complicated philosopher
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's funny how englischer "german school" goes kant-schopenhauer-karlziggler-hegel"ians"-nietsche-clinton.
mircea_popescu: what the everloving fuck already, car-paintjob-toenails-sunscreen-beachbod.
mircea_popescu: exactly a problem of "where the fuck is your engine" ie http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763930 ie "your problem is that you aren't fucking thinking. AT ALL."
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 17:11 mircea_popescu: they had all sorts of (utterly nonsensical) "cars of the future", their features being that they were "warlike" (in a dysfunctional, anti-mechanicistic, looks-are-everything-and-hot-beats-cute girl pov) and that they had mechanisms exposed
asciilifeform: oblig eco : http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-08#1537275
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 15:53 asciilifeform: ' fauns, beings of double sex, brutes with six-fingered hands, sirens, hippocentaurs, gorgons, harpies, incubi, dragopods, minotaurs, lynxes, pards, chimeras, cynophales who darted fire from their nostrils, crocodiles, polycaudate, hairy serpents, salamanders, horned vipers, tortoises, snakes, two-headed creatures whose backs were armed with teeth, hyenas, otters, crows, hydrophora with saw-tooth horns, frogs, gryphons, monkeys, dog-
mircea_popescu: and, for completeness : leaning german off kant is perfectly acceptable manner of learning german altogether, for the sufficiently intelligent ; much like learning greek off homer.
mircea_popescu: contrary to what pantsuit may be whispering in ear, "here i am, with this 10lb book of which i can read not a word" is a very poor predictor of failure.
mircea_popescu: "now we're getting somewhere" better predictor of failure ; and there being english names anywhere inside the item -- almost perfect predictor.
esthlos: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20180105/#802 << I have an intuition that this is missing a higher symmetry. Why not use v for prose documents?
scriba: Logged on 2018-01-05: [19:03:26] <mircea_popescu> as i say -- i see no way out here ; we'll end up with the v-code + blog-commentary ostrich-camel and god help us./
mircea_popescu: esthlos because if put in separate places they'll automatically personalize ; hence the blogposts comment.
mircea_popescu: !!up jpx__
deedbot: jpx__ voiced for 30 minutes.
jpx__: sup
esthlos: hmm...is there a way for reflow not to break diff...
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765028 << lmao this guy. YOU PUT IT THERE! and moreover... what is the logic of "begins to suspect that ~nobody actually read ch5" when "it survived nearly a week of asciilifeform rereading whole thing every day." ? DID YOU NOT READ IT ?
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 17:53 asciilifeform: ^ bug. shame on everybody, for not noticing.
mircea_popescu: who might you be jpx__
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765066 << this inevitably led to mention of knuth which in turn makes one realize tex existed originally exactly because http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765177
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 18:12 asciilifeform: well, let's reread http://trilema.com/2015/no-such-labs-releases-v-for-victory then :
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 19:01 mircea_popescu: in any case, here's the logic : the proximate cause of the failure of "computer science" to amount to 0 (not epsilon, 0) since its inception is strictly due to poor treatment of comments as 2nd class item in code.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765095 << there's a certain...ring... to that. "a cuntoo pressing itself". http://78.media.tumblr.com/9307e89967592d33f10d9598fcdbc2ec/tumblr_ndiplotSRF1th0gwho1_1280.jpg
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 18:28 asciilifeform: no good. first of all suppose there are 2 concurrent runs of the vtron ( say this is a cuntoo pressing itself )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765100 << this is a gensym in the sense girl you met at butcher's is your true love. why not call gns like sane people.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 18:29 asciilifeform: ( make a string out of /dev/random crapola + current epoch time, say )
mircea_popescu: o... wait...
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765119 << this is actually the most cogent critique of phalocentrism in computing i ever read.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 18:45 asciilifeform: ( upstack : dma, interrupts, pipeline, instruction reorderer, 'hyperthreading', multiple buses, 'bridges' -- all are epicycles ( hey mircea_popescu ! ) from vonneumannism , where instructions 'push' (unrelated to stack concept) outputs, rather than 'pull' inputs as they oughta )
asciilifeform: gensyms have 0 to do with centralized name lists or any *ns
asciilifeform: they're simply 'i want a piece of shit that won't recur'
asciilifeform: !#s gensym
a111: 15 results for "gensym", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=gensym
asciilifeform: ^ there's gotta be a likbez in'ere.
asciilifeform: in practice you can use e.g. 256bits of fg. asteroids will flatten you before it ever recurs.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aaaand how do you make it not recuir lol
asciilifeform: liekthat.
mircea_popescu: this is not the samr thing!
mircea_popescu: re-read my comment, it is exactly accurate!
mircea_popescu: can also run into soulmate at butcher's!
asciilifeform: can!
mircea_popescu: back at sanity ranch, ~only way to know it won't recur is the way trinque has it implemented
mircea_popescu: when i ask for a deposit it won't fucking recur.
mircea_popescu: ("why not ?" "because he's not gonna reissue the item already in db doh")
asciilifeform: if you have a record of all the prev shots, it is trivial to avoid recurring ( use simple counter )
mircea_popescu: right.
asciilifeform: harder is when there is not a record.
asciilifeform: in that case rng. in fact this is almost definition of what trng is for.
mircea_popescu: it is, isn't it.
asciilifeform: ( you want a unique e.g. rsa privmod, but without having to show it to anybody ... )
mircea_popescu: tring is secret gensym ; gensym is public trng.
asciilifeform: approx
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765140 << could trivially point into structure by word count! which is how it was fucking done before you darned kids started skatin' on the sidewalk! my addressing into classical text is paragraph count / word offset. what the FUCK is a line!
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 18:54 asciilifeform: ( whynot, is not a bad question, it reduces to the absence of a solution to the tednelson problem -- how to point into a structure unambiguously, other than by line # )
asciilifeform: same problem as lines
asciilifeform: trivial changes mutilate the pointer
mircea_popescu: notrly, i'd be happy with "text is made of words" ; my problem is entirely "text is made of words ARRANGED IN LINES".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform code reference is not to be optimized for the writer of code.
mircea_popescu: code reference is to be optimized for the reader of code.
mircea_popescu: the ~only~ person who matters, in ALL of fucking computer, is HE WHO READS CODE, all hail to him, the greatest one.
mircea_popescu: everyone else can go pack mud.
asciilifeform: forget writers of code and who-whom, for a minute, it's an actual unsolved
mircea_popescu: forgets.
asciilifeform: it's the problem that drove ted nelson mad.
asciilifeform: ( and imho not unjustifiably )
mircea_popescu: explain it to me like i'm new.
asciilifeform: hmm
asciilifeform: there are texts. and long before gutenberg , texts knew how to refer to one another.
mircea_popescu: ok.
asciilifeform: by title, author.
asciilifeform: then gutenberg, and also became sometimes possible to refer to page.
mircea_popescu: by title, author, paragraph and word offset.
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: it became new-jersey possible
mircea_popescu: "works 80% of the time and breaks everything"
asciilifeform: e.g. bible grew concordance, with word offsets etc
mircea_popescu: there was an early knuth trying an early standardization of the same inanity, cca 1600, yes
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: herr leibniz
mircea_popescu: NOTE!!! however thatr foercing this ("all bible pages begin and end on same fucking words motherfuckers!!!) ruins the very point of print
mircea_popescu: which is... to not go around with photocopies, but REPRINT! ie, reflow.
asciilifeform: was bad enuff with print;
asciilifeform: then somebody made electric textrons where the text can... change. AFTER somebody already pointered into it.
mircea_popescu: yes.
asciilifeform: we are here.
mircea_popescu: how is this anything than "high fucking time we implement the original correctness" ?
asciilifeform: q is not whether, but how
mircea_popescu: dude!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765738
a111: Logged on 2018-01-06 02:46 asciilifeform: if you have a record of all the prev shots, it is trivial to avoid recurring ( use simple counter )
mircea_popescu: the bible take 349875938475893749854379857 paragraph 96 word 17
mircea_popescu: wtf is v for!
asciilifeform: is why i built it, yes
mircea_popescu: so then, can we forget the inanities. reference is by wordcount, paragraph, work ; there is no "generic" work title but only correct patchid, ie the bible take 349875938475893749854379857 above ; and this is fucking all.
asciilifeform: nelson's doom goes away if you can staticize the text.
mircea_popescu: have fixed indentation for all languages (aka only use languages with fixed indentation) and my text can flow!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform much in the way pain in eye goes away once you move the fucking spoon.
mircea_popescu: in the republic, the reference system is patch-tree ; press-head ; word-offset. wtf is wrong with that!
asciilifeform: indentation and whitespace placement in general, oughta be a harem (i.e. terminal config) matter.
mircea_popescu: yes but i like how lisp does it so how about default that
asciilifeform: store data as fucking sexprs already. let the vt100 die.
mircea_popescu: and then harem on top.
mircea_popescu: (contrary to above newjersyization, print was mega-republican tech, in that it STANDARDIZED LETTERS. you would NOT FUCKING BELIVE the unicode the dark ages had produced!)
asciilifeform: this is when asciilifeform admits that he has a small demo of this. but is being saved for after ffa, cuz Finishing Things Properly (tm)
mircea_popescu: cool. not like there's any rush.
asciilifeform: iirc trinque also has sumthing in back pocket , re subj.
mircea_popescu: well this has been a productive morning then.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765209 << yeah, somehow it became the epicenter of vcritique.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 19:06 mod6: my vtron has been discussed very much over the last 2+ years. i remember many disucssions where rules popped out.
asciilifeform: iirc we had almost exactly this thread, with the tabs-spaces thing
mircea_popescu: very substantially the same but formally different because no good form yet, so entirely useless (other than from historical pov)
mircea_popescu: EXACT application of "idiots can not have ideas -- idea in hand of idiot is not idea."
asciilifeform: sorta like in another thread re giving money to bears. just makes funnily shaped bear shit.
mircea_popescu: for instance -- i did not observe then that "tab" makes 0 sense, entirely vt100.item to borrow your reference, and will not be maintained. CONTRARY to what i thought at the time, i don't like tabs, i like the thing tabs emulate, which is lisp autoindent
asciilifeform: aaha
mircea_popescu: this is very much the problem of thinking man, "i know what i like i just don't know what it is" ie http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765170
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 19:00 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform somehow you jump from "my printer is shit, doesn't work properly" to "either magic number or throw out printer"
asciilifeform: 'didja want 3ring binder, or 4ring, or cleaner desk, or to think moarclearly' per naggum
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765236 << no that was the different one, with the microscopy.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 19:12 trinque: he was almost, maybe, sort of going to do an archiver and pdf-to-texter
asciilifeform: lol the methscopy
asciilifeform: was ( nominally... where IS his key ? ) d00d
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765251 << this is so fucking epic.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 19:16 gabriel_laddel: training a NN on FG output to see if it trains faster so I can sell them
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-25#1742992 << the quite memorable lulthread
a111: Logged on 2017-11-25 00:24 gabriel_laddel: 1000x magnification seems unrealistic - that being said: if I crush some product, take hundreds of images of each sample & use them as input into a neural network along with a 1-10 (bunk-absolute fire) rating y'think it'll get trained to recognize the real deal?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-10-13#1298079
a111: Logged on 2015-10-13 19:48 ascii_field: '...so the room would be empty!'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nah nah, was some other kid, had a whole pile of "nsa recognizes you for your not having done any work in x field" certs and whatnot.
asciilifeform: he got the notion ( re nn convergence, not methscope, lol ) from ancient log, where asciilifeform described own finding
asciilifeform: where, oddly, it works
asciilifeform: good rng in fact lubricates convergence in all kinds of sims
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: hm, kanzure ?
mircea_popescu: is persuased neural networks / expert systems / etc ai.mit nonsense is waste of tiem ; however we could put the difference between trng and prng in these terms : only one is useful for evolutionary work.
mircea_popescu: possibly.
asciilifeform: alphago runs on nn
mircea_popescu: in a sense of nn whittled down to mean "here's this 1T bayesian array"
asciilifeform: plus various special-purpose mechanisms even in asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: this is a neural network in the sense frog has cns.
asciilifeform: 's house
asciilifeform: e.g. ocr
asciilifeform: it works when used as prescribed.
asciilifeform: nn is a very broad item, and properly speaking the 'training' is distinct from the mechanics of the 'neurons' per se
asciilifeform: ( can do 'backpropagation', or 'genetic algo' to 'evolve' the params, or some other way )
asciilifeform: backpropagation has no analogy in meat, incidentally
mircea_popescu: right.
asciilifeform: pretty sure we had this thread..
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765278 << teitelbaum gaon sez, excessive virtue still vicious. nothing wrong with a little of whatever now and again, i for that matter drink the occasional cup of coffee and so on. the problem's when it becomes a regular thing, "i am in X circumstance therefore must Y".
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 19:21 trinque: hey after mircea_popescu's various whallops on me about weed, I gave up daily caffeine even.
asciilifeform: daily dope is simply a black hole for money, even if it dun do you in
asciilifeform: the meat habituates
asciilifeform: dope correctly !
mircea_popescu: there's this lulzy "guy wrote 5 checks for $20 each every SINGLE day for three years" sorta stories from law enforcement.
mircea_popescu: "did it not ever occur to you to get a week's supply ahead of time ?" "here's a $20 check"
asciilifeform: ahahaha
asciilifeform: ( see also http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-13#1750150 )
a111: Logged on 2017-12-13 01:01 asciilifeform: how to smoke -- is possibly the 1 item where the red man had right idea.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: who would pay for dope with cheque?!
mircea_popescu: myeah
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765700 << Danke schön. I'd like to escape the arid esl labyrinth so I've been slowly attempting to lerne Deutsch (still "daycare" level though); this may help to kill two birds with one stone. Looking like Kritik der reinen Vernunft would be my logical starting point
a111: Logged on 2018-01-06 01:49 mircea_popescu: and, for completeness : leaning german off kant is perfectly acceptable manner of learning german altogether, for the sufficiently intelligent ; much like learning greek off homer.
lobbes: Also in the spirit of: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-24#1728257 !
a111: Logged on 2017-10-24 20:57 mircea_popescu: in languages as well as fucking, there's no disadvantage in starting directly with the master class.
mircea_popescu: yeah seriously. failure of the esl mind is mostly ensured by a very broken evaluation of "success". take the brick in hand, enough achievement for the first day is to have managed to fucking hold it. yes, it's completely opaque to you. so what if it is. so are many things. see what can be cracked out of it ; there's no shortage of "science fiction" "magical realism" whatever in the actual world once one's you know, no longer
mircea_popescu: deliberately blind. see what can be wrested out of this gesserit cube.
mircea_popescu: "this makes no fucking sense" needn't be either scary or worrisome -- it's the fundamental, unviersal state of mankind anyway.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765282 << there is that. and, as he points out, "lo! i moved!" etc.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 19:22 asciilifeform: trinque: i'd bet d00d has spells of sobriety, he has afaik already outlived the expected life of a serious meth aficionado
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with people taking things in at their own speed. everyone does it regardless if there's anything wrong with it or no anyway.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765384 << win.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 20:26 asciilifeform: '... stack-based overflow in the function EkCheckCurrentCert. This function is called from TPM2_CreatePrimary with user controlled data - a DER encoded [6] endorsement key (EK) certificate stored in the NV storage....'
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765454 << imo disimprovement.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 22:41 asciilifeform: so {[foo]}{[bar]} would then instead look like {[foo]}~{[bar]}_ grrrrrr
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765461 << it wasn't supposed to, was it ?
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 22:43 asciilifeform: patch on top of ch5 plox
asciilifeform: aha. try as i might, original stands so far as best
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that q was misconceived, see further in.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765537 << im just sitting here shaking my head. WTF ALF! talk to the topic!
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 23:18 trinque: the opacity of this question is by now baffling to me.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765548 << there's no patching atop TWO patches omfg.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 23:24 ben_vulpes: or to put it a different way, that one *must* create an invalid state in order to patch atop two divergent patches.
mircea_popescu: ok this nonsense in the log is fucking infuriating.
mircea_popescu: let's classify once for all fucking time!
mircea_popescu: 1. problem S (alf's) is entirely spurious and not part of this confersation, go talk to dreamweaver about it ; 2. problem A (trinque's) : "if two patches with same antecedent touch disjunct filesets, how does establish which came first" ; 3. problem X ( ben_vulpes 's) : "if i totally sabotage v into a piece of shit entirely contrary to its everything, will you hit me in the head ?"
mircea_popescu: problem S will not be considered ; problem X is resolved by answering yes. because god fucking help you, if your patch has two antecedents you are a heretic anathema.
mircea_popescu: problem A has two possible legitimate answers : A.1 : introduce a further parentage chain (so patch does not discuss merely file hashes but also somehow a hash of prev patch) and A.2 : introduce a magic file which must (by protocol) be touched by all patches.
mircea_popescu: through some discussion it emerged that A.1 and A.2 are not practically distinct, one just provides the memory for the implementation fo the other as a foremost feature.
mircea_popescu: this is the discussion, proceed but proceed like sane fucking people, save me blood pressure.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765580 << eh get the hell out of here, so you want someone to take that patch and put it into some random other tree which happens to have a db.cpp that matches its hash ? this is insanity on the level of early organ transplantation experiments.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 23:38 asciilifeform: take for example http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected . in properly working v, it ONLY depends on db.cpp being a particular hash . and does NOT lock you into anything else being anything else in particular.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765582 << every single time you lift something ; yup.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 23:39 asciilifeform: if instead it demanded that your tree, to apply it, be bitwise-identical to asciilifeform's tree when he made it -- you could only build on this patch if you reground ALL of EVERYONE's work every single fucking time
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765587 << v exists to permit you too 100/0 split "the monolith/the rest". so the world can therefore safely consists of multiple monoliths.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 23:40 asciilifeform: think, if EVERY patch requires global regrind of all of world history, you ain't using v, may as well throw out all of the unnecessary equipment -- you're passing a monolithic turd around
mircea_popescu: but yes, there is no other kind of code besides monolith ; i've had enough "bazaar" for three lifetimes of other people i don't particularly like ; and moreover code ambiguity is fucking nuts.
mircea_popescu: i'm gonna skip the rest of this nonsense, jesus f christ.
asciilifeform: invites mircea_popescu to redraw picture seen in http://btcbase.org/patches . which incidentally is on 3rd year of looking exactly so, and mircea_popescu had plenty of time to barf.
asciilifeform: ^ where just about EVERY patch has 2+ antecedents.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765882 << there is no 'random' that so 'happens'. if hash matches -- the delta is valid. end of story. this is what v was about from day 1.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-06 04:29 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765580 << eh get the hell out of here, so you want someone to take that patch and put it into some random other tree which happens to have a db.cpp that matches its hash ? this is insanity on the level of early organ transplantation experiments.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765884 << very easy to write infinite cheques on OTHER people's time, yes.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-06 04:30 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765582 << every single time you lift something ; yup.

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