a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 13:17 diana_coman: as I was saying earlier: atm the fixed packet length might clash a bit with what I need but it's not even fully clear it's not *better* to have a fixed packet length anyway
a111: Logged on 2018-09-02 02:04 mircea_popescu: well ? how EXACTLY did the entire "torzilla development community" spring up ? what the fuck is a lindsey kuper ?
mircea_popescu: it's obviously enough how laughable monstrosities like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-02#1846790 were even produced in the first place. "why does this thing leak more kb/s than an old style modem ?" "because we do all the memory handling inside a live octopus"
asciilifeform: btw mircea_popescu , my article is pretty short, should nao be possible to answer the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850792 q mircea_popescu posed.
asciilifeform: ( srsly there is no reason for a udptron to allocate anyffing whatsoever , much less to return pointers )
mircea_popescu: and no "my design, in being inexistent, therefore can not be broken" doesn't work for ideal objects. THESE can be both absent and broken, pandora's blessing.
mircea_popescu: who even does this. in c of all things, what, is it a death wish that can't be otherwise expressed ?
a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 13:05 diana_coman: for completeness, version 3. GNAT.Sockets.Thin that is an Ada wrapper on C system calls containing however questionable approaches (e.g. returning access to String so effectively a pointer but worse than this: allocating memory on the heap and leaving the de-alloc to the caller...)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851102 << this is such, SUCH terribly bad practice, srsly now. scope the fucking memory handling, so both ends always happen in the same context. either the caller allocates and then also deallocates, diana_coman style, or else the callee allocates and deallocates. none of this insane scope bridging jesus christ.
mircea_popescu: and of course, how could one forget to quote the wisdom of the ages : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-03-23#1789029
mircea_popescu: diana_coman: to round this whole thing up: 2 days ago it seemed I had only the gnat.sockets/ thin layer option which wasn't fit for purpose; now I have 2 more options: << it's been an epic few days! (what happened ?)
asciilifeform: ( i still have boxen with the old gnat, except for rk, where only ave1's gnat exists )
asciilifeform: but this is for the fyootoor, when we start adaizing kernel, perhaps.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: lemme know if you think of further 'why did he do that'-s.
diana_coman: it's not fully clear to me if it's something needed /desired atm; at any rate, compared to where I was 2 days ago, it's great - all of a sudden it went from "need to do this from scratch, ugh" to "there are 2 republican libs with 2 approaches, which one fits best my needs?" ; I'm rather delighted to be honest
asciilifeform: incidentally, my lib can be asmed just as readily as ave1 asmed the classical 'all of tcp stack' glue. ( sadly i dun currently have the free hands to do this )
asciilifeform: but yes, you wont get anyffing more detailed than in which unixism was the eggog ( strace will give it to you tho ). idea being. udp does not ever eggog during everyday operation on a correctly configged box
diana_coman: I'd expect that, yes; it was re <asciilifeform> user is told e.g. 'bind eggoged', 'send eggoged', rather than linux-specific whys ( and for that matter, on a working box udp never eggogs , i haven't even any notion presently how to make it , aside from bind()ing a nonexistent local ip)
diana_coman: re eggogging udp on a machine, perhaps trying to send something above the UDP packet limit I'd say (it's ~64k iirc)
asciilifeform: diana_coman: virtually all nontrivial programs eat or display an ip in txt form somewhere, i've found. incl the demo. hence, included.
asciilifeform: so if your own coad is compatible with this form, can safely jettison the string glue
diana_coman: asciilifeform, the udp lib can request it in a certain format; the rest is layered on top, I don't really see why it needs string representation or eating a string; anyways, splitting hairs on this
asciilifeform: diana_coman: imho that functionality belongs in a udp lib ( given as it demands knowledge of how ip is represented ) but prolly oughta be a troo ada thing, not a callout. however implementing it would double the mass of the proggy
diana_coman: right; in terms of simplicity I can't say atm that I'm able to see anything that can be further cut off from the udp part itself indeed (the string <-> ip part doesn't seem to fit in there necessarily but that's not udp per se anyway)
asciilifeform: user is told e.g. 'bind eggoged', 'send eggoged', rather than linux-specific whys ( and for that matter, on a working box udp never eggogs , i haven't even any notion presently how to make it , aside from bind()ing a nonexistent local ip)
asciilifeform: observe how the eggogology is organized.
asciilifeform: *them
asciilifeform: what i do not do, is to ~distinguish~ all of the,
asciilifeform: diana_coman: imho variable-length-datagram is for the birds. hence i jettisoned good bit of complexity by omitting it
diana_coman: on a different note: I really had trouble coming up with a *full and reliable* set of errors that the UDP ops in linux might throw up; from linux man pages I gathered the unhelpful "all errors from IP may be returned by recv /send" - and looking at that list, it makes for a waaay bigger set than what I see you considered
asciilifeform: can freely experiment, simply turn the knob ( dun forget to turn it on both ends.. )
asciilifeform: there is also a max possible, iirc 65520 or near
asciilifeform: but there is also a 'min that will be reassembled on most routers', iirc 580
diana_coman: asciilifeform, myeah, the actual length is likely to be different at the very least, but that's not a big issue
asciilifeform: there's a 'max never-fragged', afaik 508 byte
asciilifeform: tho it can be debated exactly which length, as i noted in the proggy
diana_coman: as I was saying earlier: atm the fixed packet length might clash a bit with what I need but it's not even fully clear it's not *better* to have a fixed packet length anyway
asciilifeform: 2) 'when i ditch unix, the api should continue to make exactly same amt of sense as before'
diana_coman: I can see your point there; it was literally a question to understand the reasoning behind the choice, nothing more
asciilifeform: diana_coman: observe, my lib is somewhat unorthodox, it tries to abstract entirely over the os socket, nails down a fixed packet length, ipv4 4evah, no 'nonblockisms' - who wants these, can implement via ada task; no dnsism supported at all, etc
asciilifeform: diana_coman: afaik the only useful option re udp avail on linux is reuseaddr
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-09-18 12:37 diana_coman: to round this whole thing up: 2 days ago it seemed I had only the gnat.sockets/ thin layer option which wasn't fit for purpose; now I have 2 more options: 1. ave1's ADA implementation of UDP sockets using directly ASM inline 2. asciilifeform's light UDP sockets lib that uses C code for needed UDP sockets calls but provides an Ada wrapper so that any code using the lib can call Ada methods
diana_coman: asciilifeform, any reason why your lib does not support any options at all to be set for the UDP socket?
diana_coman: as it is, the selected minimal set of ops seems ok, except perhaps the fixed message length - I think it's more of a maximum length needed in practice, at least for current version of S.MG protocol
diana_coman: asciilifeform, if I understand your lib correctly, it aims to expose only a strict & minimal set of UDP calls; atm it uses C code for the actual socket part but in principle this layer could be replaced at a later time by some Ada layer while keeping the rest as it is, correct?
diana_coman: for completeness, version 3. GNAT.Sockets.Thin that is an Ada wrapper on C system calls containing however questionable approaches (e.g. returning access to String so effectively a pointer but worse than this: allocating memory on the heap and leaving the de-alloc to the caller...)
diana_coman: to round this whole thing up: 2 days ago it seemed I had only the gnat.sockets/ thin layer option which wasn't fit for purpose; now I have 2 more options: 1. ave1's ADA implementation of UDP sockets using directly ASM inline 2. asciilifeform's light UDP sockets lib that uses C code for needed UDP sockets calls but provides an Ada wrapper so that any code using the lib can call Ada methods only
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 20:44 diana_coman: the question+kick&ban sounds good to me - kicking "silent" aka "I'm part of it because I hang about in here doing nothing" is even needed by now, I'd say; I can also see very well its usefulness for other channels; while atm #eulora tolerates the allah-spam, it could certainly do without it especially at less-quiet times
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ^ eventually i'd like to rewrite the human-string routines, and get rid of the unix callout there, but imho errything else prolly oughta stay as is.
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: well, i certainly prefer it to the alternative, whereby ghost-of-mp long after floats about the land
diana_coman: the question+kick&ban sounds good to me - kicking "silent" aka "I'm part of it because I hang about in here doing nothing" is even needed by now, I'd say; I can also see very well its usefulness for other channels; while atm #eulora tolerates the allah-spam, it could certainly do without it especially at less-quiet times
asciilifeform: i can't speak for others, but asciilifeform does not find having to unsheath the launch coads erry coupla wks, to be huge headache
asciilifeform: as for the classic voice model, i admit that i like the hidden feature where it causes folx to periodically reassert that they still control their key
asciilifeform: to rewrite the equation, there's a set of folx who have some biznis connecting, and a larger set who do not, and fortunately they are mechanically distinguishable
mircea_popescu: prolly >=1 in there. but anyway.
mircea_popescu: this may even be feasible, i don't imagine the wotscore lookup is that expensive. i dun see anythinf wrong with it, if anyone's annoying easy enough to fix the score.
asciilifeform: nobody needs the 'i'ma lurk here for a year because reading www logs is against koran' types for anyffing, imho.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-22 20:53 ben_vulpes: i'd almost rather see an auto-kicker
asciilifeform: strikes me as orthogonal to the voice q, tho
asciilifeform: ^ i'ma all for the remora ddt.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform bans are currently free, i don't maintain the list.
mircea_popescu: not that i'm even for a second proposing this is impossible. #eulora famously had one moron who "played" the game for months, merely creating accounts, never actually went in.
mircea_popescu: by the time they do that, "why are you not just being normal" becomes quite hte question
asciilifeform: recall the iptables thread ? bans are not a perma-pill, same derps could just as easily go to war with fleanode's nick reg mechanism, get 9000 clean nicks, neh.
mircea_popescu: the problem with "kick only, no banning" is that the same sort of idle morons that currently idle here would just go to war with the bot with their autoreconnectors ; deedbot would kick the same idiots over and over and oever again, possibly for the next 5 years.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 20:05 mircea_popescu: simply have a knob that decides whether {crypto|plain} auth is used ; crypto does what it does now, plain asks a question, "Tell me what color is the sky", picked from a list or somesuch.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1851024 << 'nonstandard' captchas actually work quite well. ( i have one in the pipeline for my www, which used an ancient heathen service thing that meanwhile died ). there was a famous ru www that had... schoolboy-level integral problems, as 'captcha'.
mircea_popescu: it all sprung out from the "how would the deedbot pizarro service look like" consideration.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the point certainly isn't to force people to be more like x, in any case.
mircea_popescu: i personally fucking loathe it, because often i want to answer, and then if i can't i have to savew it, which works poorly.
asciilifeform: aha, was addressing the 'what's the point of reconnectortrons, i want to talk to live people'
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 19:57 mircea_popescu: it seems to me to be the right thing here, "connect when you're you". otherwise, who are we talking to ?
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 19:56 mircea_popescu: anyway, seems to me "automatic connections" is a take on "a man walks into a bar" consisting of "but it wasn't really a man, just the hologram of one"
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1851013 << but this, not so much. currently i have a znc poured into cement, and loathe to change anyffing at all about it.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 19:38 mircea_popescu: trinque tbh i was thinking of revising the voice model altogether, in favour of a voice-or-kick model.
mircea_popescu: then like that it's perfectly systematizable, "!!add #fuckall plain 0 intolerant" meaning "join #fuckall, kick/ban anyone who fails to answer your plaintext question, voice everyone who does answer permanently"
BingoBoingo: Remember the incredibly effective Bitbet captcha
mircea_popescu: simply have a knob that decides whether {crypto|plain} auth is used ; crypto does what it does now, plain asks a question, "Tell me what color is the sky", picked from a list or somesuch.
mircea_popescu: noob support needs to be as simple and requiring of as little initiative as possible. and once that's made like that, why am i forcing you to keep an entirely separate model for #trilema ? when the same thing would actually work better in point of fact ?
mircea_popescu: i guess "this cat not worth the skinning", in general, maybe. sure, not like the current model is that broken. but if you're going to support things like #pizarro, deedbot pming new names is way the fuck better than pizarro website or sales funnel including a "and then send !!up to deebot" etc.
mircea_popescu: erry time i come in i send !!up to deedbot, i sent thousands to date, why ? it knows what i'm gonna say to it the momen ti show up, doesn't it ? who does anything @ deedbot BUT "!!up" when they come in ?
mircea_popescu: what's exactly the benefit of having whichever-unvoiced-name idling ? that what, "they can confirm the logs" ? wut the fuck is ever going to ask the voiceless anything, i need anonvouching like i need featherhairs.
mircea_popescu: not like log reading and the !Q later device aren't available to cross presence gaps.
mircea_popescu: it seems to me to be the right thing here, "connect when you're you". otherwise, who are we talking to ?
trinque: not at all, knife can cut in the direction of "don't autoconnect, connect when you're you", and is entirely sensible.
mircea_popescu: anyway, seems to me "automatic connections" is a take on "a man walks into a bar" consisting of "but it wasn't really a man, just the hologram of one"
trinque: can, but I guarantee there are cases where someone's client will reconnect 5 times without them home
mircea_popescu: "it's not so much that there's no more pie, as it is we ate the pie." hurr durr, endless infinity engine of unredeemable externalizations.
mircea_popescu: "makes it sound like she has reneged on a gender agreement, rather than come to terms with her identity" << exactly what fucking happened, duh.
trinque: mircea_popescu: eh? I'm not following you. implementing what you described would get someone banned if their IRC client is automatically reconnecting during netsplits and etc
mircea_popescu: might as well make use of the golums.
trinque: can see the wisdom in it, if freenode were reliable. would need to account for days of bad freenode weather, or repeated reconnects without meat present at terminal would result in a ban.
mircea_popescu: trinque tbh i was thinking of revising the voice model altogether, in favour of a voice-or-kick model.
PeterL: at least now I can join #pizarro, but still can't talk there
trinque: I could move it ahead of hotwallet; oughta get linux repo work done first while the dwarf-fortress-isms of portage are still fresh in my head
trinque: whole notion behind the invoicing system was that I'll offer these kinds of subscription services
mircea_popescu: might actually offer a bot-as-a-service that pms all new joins to the channel a question, and if it doesn't get the answer it doesn't voice them
BingoBoingo: If #eulora can handle, we might have to raise our tolerance for the noise. Or get a bot going that than autokickbans on the phrase "Allah is doing"
mod6: Alright, we'll try that. Also gave info to ops on how to do things so I'm not the one channel master.
mircea_popescu: does +m no longer work then ?
trinque: also apparently stood in the way of a sale for PeterL, albeit temporarily
mircea_popescu: anti-government activities for the win.
mod6: These guys are like: 1) enter 2) shit 3) leave 4) change nicl
mod6: So they went back on.
mod6: And ya, would love to have #pizarro open and welcoming to everyone. I turned off the restrictions this AM and within 3 minutes, guy came in and shit in the foyer.
mod6: PeterL: There really only is one package at this time, the Hosted Shell Plus, which is 0.002 BTC/mo, but gives you all the items you require for a blog.
PeterL: mod6: I was looking at the 0.001 /mo one, would that work for a blog?
BingoBoingo: But you can encrypt the ssh pub key to myself, mod6 or both of us
PeterL: hey there
asciilifeform: '“While these forms of anti-government activities do not involve violence, they are every bit as insidious and represent a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country,” she said.' etc
trinque: https://web.archive.org/web/20110325052709/http://www.nysun.com/editorials/a-unique-form-of-terrorism/87269/ << ???A unique form of domestic terrorism??? is the way the U.S. Attorney for the Western District of North Carolina, Anne M. Tompkins, is describing attempts ???to undermine the legitimate currency of this country.???
trinque recalls some other folks being arrested for "counterfeiting" after creating the "liberty dollar"
asciilifeform: lol, swift-on-ethertardium ?
ben_vulpes: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/HUrlW/?raw=true << winklevii taking a crack at "tether" market
a111: Logged on 2014-07-30 13:57 asciilifeform: g: 'show me the real budget.' a: 'you're asking too much. that's off limits to you.'
asciilifeform: the lizards, having access to the http://btcbase.org/log/2014-07-30#778096 figs, naturally switched to the 'help'em downregulate their wants' tack. ergo 'tits in the mud' becoming order of the day.
asciilifeform: the fundamental flavour of the snake oil being sold, 'one day errybody can have ERRYTHING THEY WANT!11' , is quite similar in both
asciilifeform suspects that 'mother earth mamie socialism' and 'galacticexploration socialism' are not wholly separate, psychiatrically, items. back when 'mother industry will provide' was sustainable religion, that was the dominant flavour. after errybody's tasted buffett's petro-caviar, no longer appealed, same psychotypes went to 'mother earth will provide' historic default
asciilifeform: what's their thing implemented in... befunge ?!
mircea_popescu: meanwhuile in lulz, "WHIPPED BECAUSE SHE WAS IMPERTINENT Then Miss DeCrist Was Chained to a Negress Until She Fainted"
asciilifeform: helps to put current-day crapple into correct perspective. it is a creation of 1990s microshit ( massive dough infusion ), originally to defend against 'monopoly bust'. ended up revived as a replacement 'usg dept of kompyooting' as the original began to show signs of rust
a111: Logged on 2015-02-17 03:31 mircea_popescu: meanwhile, moore's dead, and the thing will suffer the exact fate of printing.
mircea_popescu: the whole "women are people too, muh feelings, rape is bad mkay, e=mc2 is mean because it priviledges the speed of light over other speeds much more important to us" mamie-ism is entirely a different flavour
mircea_popescu: it was a very different flavour of socialism than what's currently prevailing in pantsuilands. this was supposed to be pretty much exactly star trek, "better living through technology [and carefully not looking under the rugs desighnated 'do not look under this rug']".
asciilifeform: lol, where do you find these !
mircea_popescu: i never perceived him as anything other than or besides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM-2030 character.
asciilifeform: 'effective monopolist', sold the users 100 $ scsi cables, and 'make'em like it'
mircea_popescu: anyway, the "millenialist", so to call them, "star trek is socialist future" pantsuit group lost pretty much everything in the 2010s religious war with the "ugly fat negro women with their tits in the mud is socialist future" group.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that was the marketing dept. d00d himself was moar of a quimby.
mircea_popescu: it's a wonder they didn't cryo-whatever him.
mircea_popescu: except "what i want" is "unleash the creativity in every droplet of mankind" sorta bunk.
trinque: I think they'd have rolled him right over by now, no pretense of higher ground left
trinque: apparently not, better build something behind the walls
trinque: in the same pretense as torvalds, "I tell people no; this is it, right?"
asciilifeform: hey, the alpha centaurians who only see the radio crapola from us, and nuffin else, prolly distinguish even less.
mircea_popescu: consequently all sorts of things are the same to me, or not worth the distinguishing, that i believe aren't to the more involved observer.
trinque was musing in the office earlier that Jobs died before his coming out, lucky man
trinque: a teenager can do the right thing.
asciilifeform: i'll confess, did not actively follow his human output. all i saw was the kernel-dbus folx etc banging unsuccessfully at the kernel door for ~decade
mircea_popescu: i r suspect alf is the more disappointed among us. not that i hold that against him.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in this sense the more famous judas held out for 30 yrs.
mircea_popescu: i don't see the contagion angle. sexual fetishes are a matter of fashion, to some degree, but not properly speaking epidemic.
trinque: reminds me of seeing same when some overtly gay kid would go to the front of the church to get fondled by church elders and convert
trinque: he's offering up the asshole to spite father, like so many emo kids before him, to join the church of pantsuit
mircea_popescu: i suppose "express", as in "genotype expresses in fenotype". though honestly, the more direct sexual reference is deeply adequate. this is a sexual matter, not genetic nor immunological nor etc.
asciilifeform: what was the virological term, when latent carrier begins to show symptoms
mircea_popescu: or turning out, as in the classical pimping term.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 08:05 ave1: In other news, some lulzy drama underway in the Linux kernel camp; https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/CA+55aFy+Hv9O5citAawS+mVZO+ywCKd9NQ2wxUmGsz9ZJzqgJQ@mail.gmail.com/
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Aite, you should recieve that in the next 24-36 hours
mod6: After looking at the post that I just made a bit more carefully, I'm gonna have to repost. The HTMLifier hosed up the spacing and columns.
mod6: I ended up having to go through the assets and liabilities tables like 2x.
mod6: Thanks deedbot. TMSR~: The Pizarro August report is finally out, thanks for your patience with me for getting this completed.
lobbesbot: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: in short -- "good news", after a fashion : everyone's fucked, and their children will absolutely never see the light of day.
mircea_popescu: in point of fact, historical aristocracy did not enjoy quite as deep or strict cleavage from the peons. yes your count would be "brave" where your peasanrt would be "cowardly", but this is very fucking little when compared to "in alte stiri umoristice, prostalaii astia cu fetlife si-or angajat uameni si-or schimbat saitu', pen'ca li se parea lor cam nedrept ca de ce fac io ce vreau pe-acolo. ca rezultat, mi-or murit tate scri
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the way i understand it, there's a set of folx with souls, and another, larger, set of meatpuppets with soul-emulator in ms 'excel'. and no, can't bridge gap, how would this even go.
mircea_popescu: there's just about no perspective which is both consistent and describes a reduction of this gap.
mircea_popescu: in any case, what we do on ~regular basis is already "unthinkable" for the alt-professional (in the http://trilema.com/2013/a-very-unfair-perspective/#selection-41.0-41.828 sense of "alt") crowd, from http://trilema.com/2012/law-enforcement-never-fails-to-unintentionally-entertain/#selection-129.0-129.992 imperial dragoons to the http://trilema.com/2015/what-amused-me-today/ "independent mind" schmucks.
asciilifeform: d00d tired of cleaning monkey shit, handed temple over to the monkeys.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but once one ~is there~, one is there. there's no more missing out, just stick to it.
mircea_popescu: "electrolytes have the pepsi that plants need"
mircea_popescu: in another decade or two, it'll be strictly impossible for the various pantsuit churchlets to do ~anything. they're rapidly losing all technical ability, and so... i mean i already can take my pick of bdsm-ish chicks in "north america -- the best country in the world". in another coupla decades, boy howdy.
mircea_popescu: in strict professional terms, this is the sort of boon nobody could have even fucking hoped for, as a child. it's one thing to "miss out on bitcoin" because bought food instead of bitcoin in 2012. it is however a substantially different thing to miss out on engineering -- harder to fucking do.
asciilifeform: d00d successfully kept out the reaching tentacles (poettering's 'kernel dbus', etc)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: linus's kernel was the last remaining 'open sores' item that was 'usable from upstream' afaik.
asciilifeform: the practical consequence will be 'aah you have iron that wasn't around in sept 2018? go and backport and come back to us with vpatch'
mircea_popescu: the path to argentina is well understood and better documented.
mircea_popescu: anyway, i suspect it'll be a whole openssl/libressl bla bla fizzle and pop there too.
asciilifeform: i suspect the time to snapshot and pour cement, trb style, approaches.
asciilifeform: for the rare exception, ada standard actually gives the tools to bake a custom heap that uses specified storage and allocation algos, bypassing the os derpery entirely
asciilifeform: ( and in fact this was sop in the aerospace/avionics world, until recently 'went microshit' )
asciilifeform: e.g. Foo(1 .. 3) := (others => 0) compiles into a memset(..., 0) ; Foo(1 .. 3) := Bar(5 .. 8) compiles into a memcpy . etc
mircea_popescu: nfi where i picked up the idea, but not borne by facts.
asciilifeform: neither is connected in any way with heapology
asciilifeform: there's no way to get out of memset()/memcpy() or equiv, tho ( and yes a sane iron would give it as an iron primitive )
mircea_popescu: now i gotta read the memcpy reference, isn't it basically a wrapper on malloc ?
mircea_popescu: whether fucked with in any sense, allocate memory, deallocate memory, it's all one thing.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in my mind, all memory handling operations are part of the gc.
asciilifeform: there ain't a 'gc apparatus' in gnat
mircea_popescu: ave1 Aggregates << for the record, i think this whole thing is stupid, in the camel-nose-under-tent sense. array-aggregate-operation should not draw in the gc apparatus (in its memcpy portions, whatever).
mircea_popescu: also, there's html5 socks now too!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'defined' is the item that differs in asciilifeform's, in fact. i dispensed with ~90% of the knobs simply by going 'sockets are udp, that's it'. no tcpism, i.e. no accept() and the associated streamolade, no unix sockets with their weird, etc.
mircea_popescu: more than half the categories on trilema didn't get any articles in a year+, if this isn't a sign of utter and complete breakdown...
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 10:09 ave1: now for the well-defined part, this I will have to work on...
mircea_popescu: but in strict terms, the utility is that it forces the above dilemma, inescapably. this is substantially what beating even is, the only proper definition thereof.
mircea_popescu: kinda the fucking point. if that were an option -- beating wouldn't be a thing. at least not for me.
mircea_popescu: tis not of the flesh to stay put.
mircea_popescu: there's two kinds of girls in the dungeon, when it comes to beatings. there's more than two kinds in pretty much all other context, but here just two : those who move into the blow, and those who move to escape it.
mircea_popescu: are you familiar with the resistence heuristic ?
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform at least posted snippets of various incomplete strange , over the yrs )
mircea_popescu: if they don't happen to same, that is as far as anyone knows, sheer coincidence. because in not having said, you lost on being able to know.
mircea_popescu: anyway -- fuck 'em, i deeply fucking care some nobody-on-a-stick meanwhile joined the churchgoing group. whatever. but in matters of actual interest : you "were working" on an ada networking socking thing ; ave "was working" on ~same. had diana_coman not said "here's what ~~~I AM ABOUT TO DO~~~", we would have never known. if the wastefulness of this approach isn't directly obvious...
asciilifeform: i suspect that the designated replacement-torvalds, in all of its 'black chix coad' glory, is already being groomed
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah, it's just... i'm fucking scandalised. junior high "taking over the world" what the fuck is wrong with all these idiots. what, "let's all manalone while the children reconstruct the world in their image", what the fuck already.
mircea_popescu: it is ~they~ who fail to understand human emotions ; and predfctably attempt to replace the actual complexity of human emotions with a 1-2-3 cliffnote constructed out of their own stunted half-brain. why actual humans would permit this sham is beyond fucking comprehension, and an outrage outright.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: torvalds's thing reads like the zinoviev&kamenev 'confessions'
mircea_popescu: understanding emotions eminently does not map, or much relate, to the validation of stupid old cunt's "feelings".
mircea_popescu: ps. there's a FUCKING DIFFERENCE between "my lifetime of not understanding emotions" and what's happening there. "understanding" emotion is not of the ilk of the pantsuit "you have to understand" aka http://trilema.com/2017/mimi-metallurgico-ferito-nellonore/#footnote_0_75893
asciilifeform: eventually either he or asciilifeform will substitute in the necessary asms, and then can build proggy sans linux etc
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i must disagree that ave1 duplicated the effort -- his item is foundation for a fyootoor raw-irons gnat, imho
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: torvalds danced in the noose longer than most, is all i can add
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 11:42 ave1: diana_coman, code is here; http://ave1.org/code/suckit/, everything is pretty much in flux still (even then name could change, currently ip addresses are in network order but ports are in native order)
asciilifeform: ave1: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850727 << neat idea, and in keeping with the libc-removal . for some reason feels 'heavy', tho, but i am resisting the temptation to try an' figure out why atm, i am in the process of wrapping up my own ( conventional ) sockets thing for release today
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform boys that "magically"/"inexplicably"/etc "do not seem to be able to find" #trilema generally (and "who could have predicted!!!"-predictably) come out with some kind of "since the world is entirely composed of the stupid cunts crowding over at the stupid cunt hut, it then follows i must wear pantyhose and lipstic now"
asciilifeform: sad, but i expected sooner rather than later. showed symptoms.
mircea_popescu: say "i will x" rather than "for the past n weeks i had been x" whenever at all feasible. for one thing, it'll get you more people, cuz ima redirect those trying to same x. for another thing, it'll give you something to look at, of your own. "here's what i said i was gonna do." yay or nay, it's absolutely better to have than to not have.
mircea_popescu: i don't mean "it is against group interest". i mean it from a very personal perspective, not using this is like not using fridges, or CAT scanners. YOU miss out. your own life is shittier than it need had been, on your deathbed you'll look at less of a life than it might've been. there's just no point to run the race eyes closed, none whatever.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 09:06 diana_coman: arguably it helps if others know what you are working on - perhaps one can help at some point or at least not duplicate the effort, that's all
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850719 << she has a point you know ; i don't just mean ave1 though it's a fine example here. you folks have an excellent semaphore system, which works well and has been historically proven to work well (not to mention have all the interest in "feelings" of a guillotine). it is very stupid NOT to use it, to eschew use it, to miss out on using it.
mircea_popescu: schmuck. let's studiously overlook the man hut, so we can pretend "overwhelmed by cunt hut" latger on.
mircea_popescu: !!rate torvalds -10 "The above is basically a long-winded way to get to the somewhat painful personal admission that hey, I need to change some of my behavior"
mircea_popescu opens "Subject: Linux 4.19-rc4 released, an apology, and a maintainership note", runs into "the code of conduct addition" , loses interest.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850711 << wait, if you have it also... then publish also ?
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 09:45 diana_coman: lobbes, esthlos, hanbot, ave1 - do you have something against using categories on your blogs? I find well-defined categories to be really helpful in finding stuff but on your blogs everything is in the "Uncategorized" category
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850723 << ty for the feedback. I added the "Categories widget" to the sidebar so should make it easier to browse (http://blog.lobbesblog.com)
diana_coman: does it just block until it reads to fill the buffer or how does that work?
diana_coman: at any rate ave1 this doesn't look bad at all in that it is an ada layer rather than just wrapping the c calls
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 08:05 ave1: In other news, some lulzy drama underway in the Linux kernel camp; https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/CA+55aFy+Hv9O5citAawS+mVZO+ywCKd9NQ2wxUmGsz9ZJzqgJQ@mail.gmail.com/
ave1: Every time I go deep into these things all kinds of weirdness surfaces.
ave1: but you can also put some magic names in there like "memory"
ave1: clobber is an inline assembly term, it's a list of all registers that may change during the execution of the inline assembly
ave1: turned out with inline asm and pointers the memory needed to be clobbered
ave1: this move caused a major headache as suddenly the syscalls seemed to not fill buffers any longer (out of every 6 invocations of getsockname about 4 would fail with empy output).
ave1: note that all asm code was first in suckit-ip.* but I moved it to the syscall, the suckit-ip stuff will move to linux
ave1: the gprbuild project file includes different source directories based on the platform you'll be building
ave1: Yes, that's right, the source for syscalls is in the platform directory (so in platform/linux-x86_64-asm
diana_coman: ave1, if I get the structure right there, you have an empty root package Suckit and then children packages net and types; there seems to be also Suckit.Syscall that I see listed as dep in suckit.types but I can't find the source for?
ave1: diana_coman, code is here; http://ave1.org/code/suckit/, everything is pretty much in flux still (even then name could change, currently ip addresses are in network order but ports are in native order)
diana_coman: ave1, the basic thing is that it's a proper hierarchy (so each post in one (sub)category and not in 10)
ave1: now for the well-defined part, this I will have to work on...
diana_coman: lobbes, esthlos, hanbot, ave1 - do you have something against using categories on your blogs? I find well-defined categories to be really helpful in finding stuff but on your blogs everything is in the "Uncategorized" category
diana_coman: ave1> I'm aiming at a small library with support for UDP, TCP and UNIX sockets with direct calls to 64bit x86 and 64bit arm plus C. So far UDP + asm 64bit x86 is done. -> mind publishing somewhere this part then?
diana_coman: arguably it helps if others know what you are working on - perhaps one can help at some point or at least not duplicate the effort, that's all
ave1: For example BSD expects a 1byte length field in the socket address structures (which is then not used as the interface already has a separate length argument)
ave1: In other news, some lulzy drama underway in the Linux kernel camp; https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/CA+55aFy+Hv9O5citAawS+mVZO+ywCKd9NQ2wxUmGsz9ZJzqgJQ@mail.gmail.com/
ave1: Also no UNIX sockets yet, I was reading the documentation and came accross how linux now supports "abstract" unix sockets which have no equivalent on the file system. Pretty big WTF all over, it's implemented by having a string start with a 0 (zero) byte.
ave1: I'm also working on a thin networking layer for Ada (using direct system calls in inline assembler). I got stuck on some inline assembly details and once that was resolved I got stuck on the whole select/epoll/kevent support and so forth. So at this point, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-16#1850668 applies.