asciilifeform: but one could conceive of F' being the key itself
asciilifeform: cads: with some 'hardness assumption' in the way of practically accomplishing this, yes.
cads: typically the decryption key allows us to derive the encryption key via number theoretic properties
asciilifeform: you have turds of a certain number-theoretical variety, that turn into plaintext when subjected to function F. F(turd) = plain. but you don't know F'(plain) = turd.
cads: asciilifeform: I'm confused as to the sense in which the encryption algorithm cannot be derived from the encryption algorithm
asciilifeform: cads: idea probably was, you'd like to block-cipher the blob, but don't want to send a symmetric key (however contained) into the field.
cads: asciilifeform: in that case couldn't we say the same of hashing? Although I admit. Putting the decryptor somewhere in the main flow of the system has panache, and I wouldn't be surprised if a similar approach hashing is a lot less natural.
asciilifeform: we'll know when an american Mitrohin or Rezun lifts the specs.
mircea_popescu: but if you "interwoven" on nyse the sec will put your head on a pike on columbus ave.
mircea_popescu: there's no such thing as "interwoven"
benkay: is there a ranking of purely crypto exchanges by vol?
Jere_Jones: stop a loss if the market is relatively shallow. Am I misunderstanding something?
Jere_Jones: How does an exchange that implements stop losses prevent a large order from crashing the market? If a large order comes in and wipes out the orderbook past serveral stop losses, those sells get executed after the large order right? They don't get interwoven with the large order? Interwoven seems harder to do and/or incorrect and/or unethical. That means that a stop loss can't actually
asciilifeform: cads: J. was devised for some unknown, godforsaken 1980s silicon. perhaps it sat the decryptor between the memory bus and cpu proper
asciilifeform: the Party."
asciilifeform: even predominated. Actually, so far as he could judge, the majority of people in Airstrip One were small, dark, and ill-favoured. It was curious how that beetle-like type proliferated in the Ministries: little dumpy men, growing stout very early in life, with short legs, swift scuttling movements, and fat inscrutable faces with very small eyes. It was the type that seemed to flourish best under the dominion of
asciilifeform: "On the far side of the room, sitting at a table alone, a small, curiously beetle-like man was drinking a cup of coffee, his little eyes darting suspicious glances from side to side. How easy it was, thought Winston, if you did not look about you, to believe that the physical type set up by the Party as an ideal-tall muscular youths and deep-bosomed maidens, blond-haired, vital, sunburnt, carefree - existed and
cads: just burn some of the traces on the bootstrap chip and suddenly it loads your unencrypted code just fine
cads: For you cannot re-encrypt the code.
cads: But once doing that, say you want to alter the code. You can't do that.
cads: To do that you read the bootstrap key.
cads: You can decrypt the existing operating system.
mircea_popescu: makes this observation how the only sort of people who seem to trive in his dystopia are bug-like
cads: so joseki is a two part encryption decryption function E, D such that in some sense "the encryption algorithm is not the same as, and cannot be deduced from, the decryption algorithm."
mircea_popescu: no, but he described the type.
asciilifeform: mr. o blamed the telegraph
mircea_popescu: then orwell's bugmen took over.
Mats_cd03: i watched the aviator so yeah i can pretend like i know what youre talking about
asciilifeform: if you're exceptionally lucky, it smells like the hangar where howard hughes farted in '72.
benkay: these days certainly.
mircea_popescu: i do not make the mistake of positing it's romanian!
benkay: the old kind
asciilifeform: wiki used to have a page on 'joseki' (not to be confused with the Go players' term)
cads: right that would surely give the game away for most things
asciilifeform: cads: not so simple. you can't have the machine actually branch in any obvious sense
asciilifeform: because the result can never be verified.
asciilifeform: unless you are carrying out the compilation with paper and pencil,
asciilifeform: one neglected aspect of homomorphic turdcraft (let's assume that it were possible and practical in some general-'enough' case! for the sake of argument) is:
ozbot: Paillier cryptosystem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
asciilifeform: cads: i reinvented the concept, as probably just about every maths student has, when first reading about Paillier's Addition and thinking 'what if you glue this to OISC - 'jump if zero' - machine.
cads: So that if an adversary has captured the state vector they can only continue to simulate it faithfully
asciilifeform: turdware vendors are mightily annoyed that the occasional consumer, 'smarter than average rabbit', pries open and exposes their turdwork.
cads: I came up with the idea of encrypted computing when I was thinking how to design an autonomous AI agent that cannot ever have its state vector interrogated or partially simulated.
cads: you may have to excuse my ignorance of the commercial or political side of this work
asciilifeform: problem is (well, depending on how you look), the consumer is to be on the 'wrong end of the barrel' for this one.
cads: right, currently it's amazingly inefficient and not general, and I also believe there are unfortunate theoretical limits to the power of any such approach
asciilifeform: cads: exists (provably not in the general case, but for many particular cases, sure)
cads: Which could give us some padding between the software agent and untrusted underlying hardware.
cads: asciilifeform: that brings us to study methods of invalidating the security properties by changing aspects of the substrate system that the security properties gloss over or assume by fiat.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your dream of software that's unauditable by the user is getting closer and closer huh
asciilifeform: of course, no need for such shenanigans if the box is already built of 'cooperative' iron.
cads: fair enough, then even the most correct formally proven software should expect some faults due to underlying hardware.
asciilifeform: (if cosmic rays are insufficient, someone might be so kind as to pump some ionizing strange through your server. or merely turn up the thermostat in the cage. etc.)
cads: hmm, the verified software I've read about uses security properties which are proven via a formal proof assistant in a standard logic.
asciilifeform: 'ECC' memory is largely absent from consumer turdware. i wait for the box running your 'proofy' crap to be hit by cosmic ray.
asciilifeform: example, for the thick:
asciilifeform: the idea that bugs are being banished anywhere by this obscurantist crap is nonsense.
asciilifeform: we aren't seeing proof in the mathematical sense. only (apologies to bush the lesser) - 'proofiness.'
cads: It does feel like you're concentrating the bugs into a very rare and amazingly lucrative bug class
asciilifeform: the entire field, giving its history and monetary incentives, is a poisonous offering.
cads: But I'm optimistic since we can study the theory of what should constitute a correct and effective security property
asciilifeform: or something as mundane as the hardware.
cads: And that's the part that hits my stomach with dread.
cads: And I appreciate that this makes it /easier/ to avoid bugs - the only place a bug can now live is in the security properties you prove about your access model.
asciilifeform: and this requires a 'bonfire of the' complexity.
asciilifeform: it is an attempt to hide head in the sand, escape from the fact that the only way to guarantee expected function is: actual understanding
cads: I appreciate that we can create a kernel of security properties and then prove it about our access control model, and then build the system on that.
asciilifeform: the whole 'automated proofs' business is fundamentally turdalicious
cads: for example UC's Quark verified browser kernel or the NICTA's l4.verified project.
mircea_popescu: o ya definitely likes the c0q
mircea_popescu: pithecanthropus
asciilifeform: try 'pithecantropic' ?
mircea_popescu: cads so send them over.
mircea_popescu: anyway, reference to the "java man"
asciilifeform: it's hilarious. they have people 'formally verify' DRM crud.
cads: mircea_popescu: sell some Coq nerds on the importance of implementing a formally verified blockchain algorithm and further specialization to a btc implementation :)
mircea_popescu: a howitzer can fire blanks on the football field just fine
mircea_popescu: benkay you don't have to make the shells actually do anything you know ?
asciilifeform: obligatory link to the MIT lamp video!
asciilifeform: implementing btc would be a little like having the mech eng. students build a working howitzer.
mircea_popescu: merely gotta do the work.
asciilifeform: give it another decade... we implemented 'sed'.
mircea_popescu: all the unspeakable depth of pitecantropic refuse
mircea_popescu: cs professors who failed to have the kids implement bitcoin in 2013
asciilifeform: perhaps vaccum cleaner is the wrong picture. more of an idiot with mouth open, catching raindrops.
mircea_popescu: we're fortunate to live in a world where nobody has any clear measuring stick to be able to measure exactly how tall the pile of shameful excrement they find themselves under is.
asciilifeform: that is its primary function, with the students as an afterthought (read: source of cheap labour)
asciilifeform: can't speak for other unis, the cs dept. i studied in was a vacuum cleaner for slurping up DOD moneys
mircea_popescu: and i seriously do not understand what a rector must be thinking to not close down their cs department after this
benkay: mircea_popescu: cs departments are for research. mechanical and ee departments are apparently where you learn to actually weld shit together.
benkay: mircea_popescu: it's a goddamn shame that everyone's leaving it to the self-taught hacks
mircea_popescu: there are > 450964509860954 copy/paste alt coins
mircea_popescu: one thing i can't for the fucking life of me understand is why on earth has nobody made an actual competing implementation.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: right. you arrange to have the turd jumped to after sig check.
mircea_popescu: just the signed part.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the diference here being of course that you're not expected to run the whole turd
copumpkin: I'm a big fan of the tune in sonmi-451 meets chang, and the various times it recurs throughout the rest of the soundtrack
BingoBoingo: Mark's face is shaped in such a way, I imagine, he imagines he can just hug away the scam.
asciilifeform: re: tx issue: this is reminiscent of microshit's EXE signing. where you can append whatever to the signed turd and it still passes checksum.
cads: if a soundtrack is good I usually watch the movie
mircea_popescu: but apparently the php lolcat interpreter adds leading 0's to O RLY?/OIC blocks or something
cads: copumpkin: You've got me piqued on the soundtrack
BingoBoingo: Cutting those zeros changed the txid though.
mircea_popescu: mtgox was at least 5 times told to stop with the idiocy.
BingoBoingo: Anyways, the problem in Gox's case is they kept leading zeros in their signatures. Everyone else was like STFU that's dumb. Eventually some nodes started correcting this mistake.
mircea_popescu: watch it abd blog about the experience, i never saw it.
copumpkin: I like the soundtrack
mircea_popescu: but they're defo not a flaw.
copumpkin: it's not ideal and the devs are trying to adjust it
mircea_popescu: like tits, they get cold and flop arouind and your nipples hurt and everything,
benkay: the flaw is in people using the txid as a bookkeeping device which satoshi explicitly warned against iirc
cads: mircea_popescu: I'm going to investigate the excuse don't worry :D
cads: "While transactions are signed, the signature does not currently cover all the data in a transaction that is hashed to create the transaction hash. "
mircea_popescu: benkay you know he's the asshole who stole my bentley and gave it to a bunch of kids from like poor countries in india or some shit, and in exchange they hacked a bunch of iphones for him
mircea_popescu: or so they say.
mircea_popescu: who the hell wasn't srsly.
cads: Since when the fuck does bitcoin have fucking transaction fucking MALLEABILITY?!
asciilifeform: benkay: the "ship to forum sockpuppets" asic ploy << there is much to be learned from carnival / stage magic tradecraft re: scams
cads: bitcoinity.org is now tracking bitstamp rather than gox?
benkay: the "ship to forum sockpuppets" asic ploy.
Bugpowder: time for the bot to start quoting again
Bugpowder: You could probably do well in the just-dice groupie scene too
mircea_popescu: cads you'll never be popular with the fiat-finance crowds,
cads: This is why I refuse to learn finance first. I'd rather take whatever math intuition handicap than be caught using theorems whose conditions are not satisfied.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless it includes by reference enough material.
BingoBoingo: And the trillions of hashes per second which aren't good enough to find blocks.
mircea_popescu: it is also true of the assets bash.
mircea_popescu: (because you see, everything is in the torah, including the birthdate of your future wife you;ve not yet met, as well as the name of her secret lover)
mircea_popescu: ie, to predict or enact the word of gawd.
mircea_popescu: the kabbalistic approach is to use them in the manner global warmists use their "data"
mircea_popescu: (ie, as to the message processed)
mircea_popescu: cads except that's the correct way to use numeric methods
cads: So knowing the nth letter of say an english message will definitely give a probability distribution for things like "what word does this letter belong to" or "is this the middle or end of a word."
mircea_popescu: which all amount to basically "let's find the parametric function of the future" or meaning or w/e
mircea_popescu: that, then.
mircea_popescu: benkay you familiar with how if you read only the nth letter in an arbitrary string you may find a message in there ?
cads: the thing I find very useful about the calculus is that, forget finance, say you're dealing with an arrival process in a factory production cell or in an autonomous agent - now /that/ is a situation where your models basically become the magic word of god.
mircea_popescu: benkay but dja know what the kabbalist ppl mostly do ?
benkay: i was cracking wise about the technical folks' tendency to resort to blind incantations.
mircea_popescu: cads you seen the predictonator ?
BingoBoingo: The stuff that made Madonna dump A-Rod because his Batting average and WAR stopped being good numbers.
cads: I've been butting heads with the stochastic calculus and I think I'm about ready to start reading Probability with Martingales - random variables, random processes, and statistics are starting to feel a lot more natural.
mircea_popescu: the volatility in this chan is fantasitc, not two hours ago we were discussing the new and improved ordering whereby you get more phonenumber with your order,
mircea_popescu: this remains true no matter how breathtakingly beautiful, elegant or symetrical they be.
BingoBoingo: The herbi lesson where you place orders based on how you want the book to look rather than on how you could buy and sell at palatable prices.
benkay: that'd be the piece in question, cads.
cads: math background is category theory, algebra, graphs and computation/logic
cads: mircea_popescu: some economics and game theory
ozbot: X-BT - The new marketplace for trading Bitcoin with Litecoin, Namecoin and Altcoin
ozbot: X-BT - The new marketplace for trading Bitcoin with Litecoin, Namecoin and Altcoin
mircea_popescu: what's the url again ?
pankkake: there's a usuability issue, when you put an order, you get into the page in POST mode; refreshing it would likely submit the order a second time
nanotube: i think charts has removed anx.hk for the moment
TomServo: Not sure why that's not the default tbh
mircea_popescu: because i am currently carrying a shitton of puts, which i would contractually be allowed to execute at the 430 bs bitcoincharts price
mircea_popescu: by being in -assets i get the chance to learn how mpoebot etc actually work.
mircea_popescu: anyway, mpoebot isn't quoting because the derivation among exchanges is too large, and likely won't until this is resolved somehow.
benkay: oh well then
mircea_popescu: it accounted for cases i duly forgot about and then happened
mircea_popescu: no, that's the problem : it did.
benkay: wow the spec didn't account for all edge cases
mircea_popescu: benkay the sad part of this of course being that this is actually according to spec i wrote myself.
Bugpowder: A prediction of the future
Bugpowder: You should get the line before it too.
mircea_popescu: well fuck me am i supposed to know all this code these people write all the time everywhere omfgbbq
mircea_popescu: turns out bugpowder is exactly right. bot actually isn't quoting because feeds disagree not because it couldn't get them.
Bugpowder: though a nefarious agent could potentially take an options position and bribe them to remove it for assured profit.
Bugpowder: I don't see why they should.
ThickAsThieves: and i doubt they will
ThickAsThieves: i dont think they removed gox
davout: mircea_popescu: if they removed gox from the index it'll probably still be taking into account data from before the removal
mircea_popescu: dude did bitcoincharts split the feeds or something wtf is going on here.
pankkake: Updated http://assass.headfucking.net/ : better CSS(!), strip weird Trilema feed stuff, links to foaf/opml so you can import the list into your own reader. and this is genius: http://intertwingly.net/code/venus/docs/filters.html
Bugpowder: how do they get $465 / BTC
mircea_popescu: Bugpowder srsly, mtgox is not even in the feed of bitcoincharts, since days ago.
mircea_popescu: that's the past 12 times it quoted
mircea_popescu: with all the bitching,
Bugpowder: I imagine the feed will start working around the same time gox gets dropped from bitcoincharts, and the artificial price jump risk will have been eliminated
asciilifeform: the turtle statue traditionally gets 'offerings' during exam week. this year, more whiskey bottles and handmade bongs than ever before.
benkay: lol yeah he saw you fiddling with your key again and pulled the bot
Bugpowder: I have a history of crushing MPOEbot. I think MP fears my awesome trading powers and has pulled the bot.
benkay: i don't really much care in the grand scheme of things but its a point what needs making.
asciilifeform: there is a statue on the campus, car-sized, so many of the locals think it must be a gigantic sea-turtle.
benkay: all terps are henceforth confined to their quarters
ThickAsThieves: is there any logging of mpexbot uptime?
benkay: ruminating on the future of los estados unidos
mircea_popescu: the bot doesn't have to quote any more than you do. where's your quote on options ?
benkay: all in their bedrooms
mircea_popescu: but yeah, quoting outages are temporary, people (who don't generally trade) like to bitch/find conspiraci explanations for otherwise random events.
benkay: people can't price options on their own, though mircea. that competence thing.
mircea_popescu: and that the bot is a private offering which is in principle not required to offer anyone any convenience other than its backers.
ThickAsThieves: we're talking about the bot
mircea_popescu: i am saying that mpex allows people to trade whether the bot quotes or doesn't quote,
Apocalyptic: I wrote some crypto challenges a couple of years ago, involving breaking hash functions and differential crypto, they might interest you
mircea_popescu: yeah well in this process any data can be fit to any hypothesis.
ThickAsThieves: i dont recall abnout the 1200 drop
ThickAsThieves: at least 2 of the 3 ive seen
mircea_popescu: how would it have been sweet yest anyway ? seem sthe price dropped.
mircea_popescu: i think there may be a cascading effect where if it misses one it asks too often and then it gets banned for an interval
mircea_popescu: yes but it has to answer when the bot asks
asciilifeform: because there's no place for it.
asciilifeform: every day i wake up and wonder how many other folks are sitting on crap like this
asciilifeform: (picture, say, street swept by long spool of wire with a broom on one end and a lunchbox-sized driver on the other.)
asciilifeform: true. the turd i threw in is not 'fundamental invention', unless it is 10 yrs. later.
mircea_popescu: right. which is what invalidates (from a purely philosophical pov) the approach
mircea_popescu: would you say the people trying to disprove (or for that matter prove) ZFC are or are not included ?
mircea_popescu: right. but still, people spoke of the mystery back when it was not yet a problem
asciilifeform: novel in the classic sense of transforming a 'mystery' into a mere 'problem'.
asciilifeform: i tend to think of 'fundamental' in the literal sense. that is, becomes a foundation for a recognizably novel class of things
mircea_popescu: certainly the strange behaviours of quantum that manifest at a macro level, from magnetism to histerezis, would perhaps count.
mircea_popescu: the cellphone is a trivial greek trinket. they didn't know how to make it, but they did have them in their speech
asciilifeform: (that is, or not, given the latter)
mircea_popescu: but it was this rather than that angle i was pursuing.
mircea_popescu: now, obviously the fact that star-trek revolves around ipads does exactly nothing in a discussion of prior ipad art
asciilifeform: they still typically show at least vaguely jointed movement.
asciilifeform: rather than walking coax.
mircea_popescu: seems to me about half the 12-yo-boy demographic cartoons out there use this concept.
asciilifeform: as far as i could tell, the last fellow who pondered a related question was mr. t, when he coughed up the ac motor.
asciilifeform: i'd dearly love for it to be found. so i'm not stuck building the damn thing.