MisterE: I hope they all do
asciilifeform: from this crackpot theory, mining doesn't need to have much +EV so long as it isn't too far in the minus.
MisterE: BFL could not deliver the product my buddy ordered and instead of refunding sent a lesser spec
MisterE: plus I thing it was stamped on the box
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform someone they'll still be trusting.
MisterE: they are being sued
mircea_popescu: ahh, remember the days when am was derping about "having 30% of all hashing for a year"
asciilifeform: some people will spend 2K usd to get 1 btc, if it means they don't have to bend over for 'aml' crapola or trust someone
tg2: Even the "next gen" 600gh is garbage
ozbot: Meet the manic miner who wants to mint 10% of all new bitcoins | Ars Technica
MisterE: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/03/meet-the-manic-miner-who-wants-to-mint-10-of-all-new-bitcoins/
mircea_popescu: MisterE it's a theory. it's not outrageously or massively wrong, but im not too persuaded.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that'd be because the only way to have reliable access to latest xxx is to... build it
mircea_popescu: "large concerns" that thought they had access to the latest widgets expected to come out... november 2012 are mostly bankrupt today
asciilifeform: but there's a standpoint from which it makes sense to buy a junk miner
asciilifeform: the poor schmucks buying thirdhand asic, not so much
asciilifeform: MisterE: large concerns with ready access to the latest widgets, sure.
MisterE: asciilifeform: the mining centers I've read abotu who are doing it right have paid back their investments within months
asciilifeform: not everyone has an 'otc' vendor that they're willing to trust
MisterE: smart ones supply the miners and speculators
asciilifeform: think of it this way - some people are prepared to pay double, triple, the 'usual' cost for btc, so long as they aren't using an exchange
mircea_popescu: rational behaviour isn't exactly the rule.
MisterE: and generate transactions that help keep the network healthy
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how about the people who "invest" despite negative roi ?
asciilifeform: i've always wondered if folks interested in mining despite the negative ROI are really just looking to convert fiat to btc by whatever means possible.
MisterE: oh, perhaps I'm confused with another 3 letter mfgr?
MisterE: I heard knc was not reliable and they have had a lot of delivery misses int he past?
mircea_popescu: the reason, of course, is that bitcoin is worth three to four degrees of magnitude more.
mircea_popescu: nearly as prolific as bitcoin miners they will never be
asciilifeform: hence 'lifecoin'. you're stuck with the RAM
asciilifeform: 'Current/Next gen bitcoin/sha256 asics are already at the forefront of manufacturing process, they cannot get more power efficient without waiting for a new manufacturing process to be available (14nm)' << nah
asciilifeform: the ideal botnet-optimized (i.e. what scrypt wants to be) algo is described above.
MisterE: asciilifeform: probably not for you it's about the state of and medium-term future of hardware and mfgr. proceses
mircea_popescu: stompysteve read the log will you.
stompysteve: anyone got any info on neo and whats going on past they stopped trading due to sus activity
asciilifeform: except when linked here - and even then, every 50th time or so
asciilifeform: anyone who has the apparently common distaste for the asic folks should give this some thought.
moiety: cazalla: yeah definately, i got the live version :D he is a very good sensei
asciilifeform: likewise, scaling the difficulty in time and space becomes trivial.
asciilifeform: and people are stuck having to compute the state transitions for the whole field, as many times as specified
ozbot: White House regulate cow flatulence climate agenda | The Daily Caller
asciilifeform: (yet another 'discovery' by people long ago that herr W claimed for himself)
asciilifeform: most possible cellular automata degenerate to a steady state rather than give the kind of 'soup' one normally looks for.
mircea_popescu: yeah, i think the lowest would be 3 ? or 5 ?
mircea_popescu: the mining difficulty parameter is not some arbitrary zerofill
asciilifeform: alternatively, run 'life' on the entire field, for M moves, and output is sha(field)
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell benkay "One cannot issue ratings until one is rated oneself. This is a useful feature that prevents a lot of misuse of the system. If scammers cannot stuff the WoT database with their sockpuppets, they cannot artificially inflate their ratings. Granted, the mechanism is weak and easily gamed, but the simple presence of a barrier reduces much malfeasance." this made no sense. you know it made no sense. why
asciilifeform: fill bits, in sequence, with sha2(xxx), then sha2(sha2(xxx)).... until field is full
asciilifeform: there we go.
samO_: also, is there a chat log history of this channel somewhere? thx!
asciilifeform: (why anyone should wish this is another question.)
asciilifeform: make the field large enough, and everyone is reduced to swapping to disk!
tg2: I have a useful distributed work coin project on the burner
VanCleef: the fuck is up with havelock
samO_: haven't had internet conn. for almost two days! nearly lost my mind... :D what happend in the mean time, anything significant?
asciilifeform: (and possibly not even then)
asciilifeform: given that GOL is proven turing-complete, it would follow that there is no generic shortcut to nth-state
gribble: Langton's ant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langton's_ant>; Langton's Ant - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X-gtr4pEBU>; Langton's Ant -- from Wolfram MathWorld: <http://mathworld.wolfram.com/LangtonsAnt.html>
asciilifeform: but no known counter-example either.
asciilifeform: and there is, afaik, no proof that it is always built
asciilifeform: and there is presently no known means of predicting, other than by running the ant, when the bridge will be built
asciilifeform: this doesn't require you to hash the entire playing field
asciilifeform: the ant always ends up 'building a road'
asciilifeform: in that the answer is very compact
asciilifeform: there's exactly one - 'hashlife'
mircea_popescu: no good reason not to chain them
asciilifeform: (of the grid bits)
asciilifeform: say, 1e8-th state is the hash.
cads hates not knowing what's going on in the criminal sector of computer science
cads: god it would be so great to find out these guys actually use next generation compiler tech to specialize their viruses to the hardware :)
mircea_popescu: moiety no, they don't have central government.
asciilifeform: heterogeneity of gpu makes the bot artist's job tricky
cads: lol, x11's site begins "With professional Scrypt mining hardware on the way it is time to look for the best alternative hashing solution that will keep crypto currency within reach of everyone."
tg2: Their implementation is dumb
tg2: vertcoin is the only hope for no-asic and I'm sure it will happen
cads: though I thought the memory requirements of scrypt is what made it inefficient to try to solve with an asic.
benkay: dage i gather, but does that still hold true?
benkay: are there any alts which one can mine with a cpu and at least get a few?
moiety: i don't personally doge, well i mined 41 to learn the process. such wealth.
benkay: moiety: you might be the first person with a good reason to implement m of n signing
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if you're going there, trapzderati
mircea_popescu: and wd on the citroen! it may be a trabamborghini, but it's the french trabamborghini.
mircea_popescu: well it's not really how they're supposed to work.
moiety: and for the site. me + dev had access
mircea_popescu: anyone know the car brand ?
gribble: PGP/GPG Guide | Bingo Blog: <http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/pgpgpg-guide/>; Signature Thursday: Geany a GUI text editor for GPG tasks | Bingo ...: <http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2013/10/31/signature-thursday-geany-a-gui-text-editor-for-gpg-tasks/>; Bingo Blog | - of Bitcoin and Boingo: <http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/>
TestingUnoDosTre: which one was the BingoBoingo guide?
mircea_popescu: you can change them anyway.
benkay: addrs and identities are two separate extremes on the spectrum
moiety: cazalla: more other way around, key>address
asciilifeform: 'the moving finger writes, and having writ...'
benkay: i don't need all the bacon sheesh that'd be greedy now
gribble: Edward FitzGerald (poet) - Wikiquote: <http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edward_FitzGerald_(poet)>; The Moving Finger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moving_Finger>; Omar Khayyám - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khayy%C3%A1m>
mircea_popescu: and whatever it writes, is the future.
Mats_cd03: so the heavenly forge is definitely fan fiction right?
mircea_popescu: the heavenly forge is this quill
TestingUnoDosTre: there we go
Mats_cd03: i looked it up on google and the second link was 'fanfiction.net'
mircea_popescu: benkay gimme the heavenly forge for a week, it'll happen.
moiety: ok so benkay do you have any little hard yellow shaped things in the kitchen that look like this? http://siciliangirl.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Fusilli_pasta.jpg
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and of course it is, as always, based on the commerce clause.
asciilifeform: because of the 'disparate impact' (actual legal term) standard established by griggs
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re: griggs: this was one of those cases that ended in creating a 'talmudic wall' (as the hassid jews call this situation)
benkay: i will be if i cook myself goddamn pralines all the time
benkay: MOTHERLY INSTINCTS ENGAGE
benkay: no its just for the weekend
moiety: wait, you mean properly left? not just away for the weekend?
benkay: I'M MANSPLAINING THE KITCHEN TO MYSELF
mircea_popescu: so wait! benkay was shooting for two girls but in the end his one had enough and now he's... mancooking ?
moiety: prexactly - convenience. i think toasters are good because they have a timer, you cant burn the house down. please buy one
mircea_popescu: benkay "halp halp i need to cook" moiety, always motherly, starts small. "toaster ?"
benkay: no toasters are convenience tools of the devil
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah but that's ability to perform the job, you know ?
gribble: Griggs v. Duke Power Co. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co.>; Landmark: Griggs v. Duke Power Co. | NAACP LDF: <http://www.naacpldf.org/case/griggs-v-duke-power-co>; Griggs v. Duke Power Company | The Oyez Project at IIT Chicago ...: <http://www.oyez.org/cases/1970-1979/1970/1970_124>
benkay: i don't know the difference between brotein and carboderprates
mircea_popescu: well then your cum'd be poisonous.
benkay: i guess the assettes don't deliver?
mircea_popescu: (they have a pickup in ny!)
kakobrekla: by the looks of it its deliberate
mike_c: the potatoes look raw
benkay: i did fuck the yolks up.
mircea_popescu: i always thought nubbins are the little bumps around the nipple on an aroused areola.
nubbins`: Mats_cd03 yes, the meatballs were homemade
mircea_popescu: tis a matter of i can tell if the carpenter is a noob by whether his "chair" is fucking level.
mircea_popescu: tis not a matter of aesthetics.
benkay: bah you and your aesthetics
Mats_cd03: anyway like i was saying, i think some farmer had bought bad feed for his pigs and accidentally poisoned them
Mats_cd03: were the meatballs homemade
TestingUnoDosTre: easy there assbot
nubbins`: yes, the company was amazing too
Mats_cd03: soured me on the experience
Mats_cd03: i saw a few dozen dead pigs floating down a river as i was driving out of the province
ozbot: imgur: the simple image sharer
benkay: girl is out of town for the weekend. this means.....
Duffer1: the breathable parts of china sound nice
mircea_popescu: if someone told me twenty years ago i will live to honestly pity the fate of the poor us citizens i'd have laughed for the rest of the day.
mike_c: and there's a fee :)
mircea_popescu: (course iirc, you're not allowed to do so unless you prove it's specifically NOT because you dislike the taxation system. quite the racked your owner got going there.)
mike_c: even then you can't escape. you have to give up citizenship.
mircea_popescu: the irs can tax anything the fuck it pleases. the reaction to taxation you dislike is leaving the jurisdiction, not arguing the point.
mircea_popescu: it's roughly the coating in the pill, various people sprout it because you know, the slavegirl that aesthetically loves her collar isn't really as much of a slavegirl or something.
mircea_popescu: that bullcrap is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.
ThickAsThieves: like isnt there an underlying premise for taxes being that, for example you cant profit from a shipping company without roads, and taxes pay for roads, therefor you must pay them
mircea_popescu: no, because the us does not recognise allodial title.
ThickAsThieves: is there some argument to what is allowed to be taxed at all, and bitcoin not fitting that spectrum?
ThickAsThieves: so you must break the rule to even attempt to learn it's definition?
mike_c: most of the IRS code is law, but not the btc part. http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/code.htm
mircea_popescu: we're talking a decade and a hundred million in either case.
mircea_popescu: a rule you can have overturned by arguing more things before the supreme court than if it were a law.
ThickAsThieves: what is the exact difference between an IRS rule and a law?
ThickAsThieves: "Edmund Moy, the former director of the U.S. Mint who’s become an outspoken proponent of digital currencies, saw a mix of good and bad as well, but ultimately he made two cogent points: first, that this is is a rule, not a law, and there’s a difference, and, two, that it can be changed as circumstances warrant."
mircea_popescu: i imagine these people followed hercules around augeas' stables complaining about all the mess he's making.
mircea_popescu: The most expensive code packages for gambling sites have the most deceit and advanced algorithms to rip-off the gambling fool and protect the investment of the operator. The very best ones you'll never find for sale, however. These algorithms always sit on top of whatever "edge" the operator decides to take (the "edge" is the part of the tilted table some sites even openly advertise nowadays).
dexX7: let's ipo the idea
mircea_popescu: then we can quote its wisdom
mircea_popescu: the most legal illegal exchange run by an asshole with good intentions
TestingUnoDosTre: mircea , is bitbet.us legal in every planet in the Milky Way?
CheckDavid: I heard mpoe was the most legal of exchanges
skinnkavaj: mircea_popescu: http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/6219520-the-50th-law
skinnkavaj: SD is not legal and neither is MPOE, but I love the fact that you are not agreeing with me on that
mircea_popescu: who knows, maybe it somehow ends up cutting down on the general nonsense
mircea_popescu: yes, my strategy in the future is to continue to point out obvious nonsense coming my way.
skinnkavaj: mircea_popescu: Is this your strategy in the future?
mircea_popescu: there's no such thing as a "legal service". there's illegal stuff, and then there's the rest.
skinnkavaj: In any country of the world
mircea_popescu: why not enjoy the credibility of a well run asset ?
skinnkavaj: I believe we will see more fake sells since it's the best option to clear your name, while still holding on to that money making machine
benkay: US tax law which has put itself into the voluntary donation zone?
benkay: US law, which is not law any more by dint of outlawing the un-out-law-able.
mircea_popescu: you're skidding all over the place.
skinnkavaj: Apple is still breaking the law..
benkay: skinnkavaj: are you referring to the part where they claimed they'd be able to protect cypriots from haircuts?
mircea_popescu: skinnkavaj ever pick up a chick that looked good at the disco only to get scared in the morning ?
skinnkavaj: mircea_popescu: But the original prospectus was really well thought thru
mircea_popescu: very dot-com ish really, but history is only useful to the literate.
mircea_popescu: they're an outfit run by an incompetent if vain kid that drank the kool aid. they got some btc together, made some media buys and... that's it.
mircea_popescu: benkay you've not asked too many people, btw. as best i can tell they're neither a giant scam trying to run witrh a ton of btc, nor a legitimate business.
skinnkavaj: Not the full
mircea_popescu: skinnkavaj didja read the log ?
mircea_popescu: but the viewport is too wide by now.
benkay: he'd have said something along those lines when the forum showed up and put him through the wringer
mircea_popescu: sounds like the average coindesk article.
skinnkavaj: Maybe he quit also NEOBEE for the same reason
mircea_popescu: "confirmed that a bitcoin exchange that holds client funds with a licensed overseas payment service provider is not required to obtain a licence in the country for its activities."
benkay: skinnkavaj: not much. no more trades on havelock, ThickAsThieves no longer running the 'fund'.
skinnkavaj: mircea_popescu: I have never understood how MPOE works, but anyway the questionn goes how many trades can you handle per second right now?
skinnkavaj: Must be expensive to deposit there
skinnkavaj: I am opening a new altcoin exchange for Litecoinlocal, before I was determined that we should have fee shares and take fees on the trading
skinnkavaj: pankkake: On NEOBEE or what did you have there?
decimation: well, a private corp would open themselves up to civil suits
mircea_popescu: yes but a) the city of new york is a public corp and b) firemen and generally blue collar workers are hardly what we were thinking about
decimation: meet the requirements of Title VII.
decimation: the United States alleges that defendant City of New York's use of two written examinations on a pass-fail basis, as well as its rank-order processing of applicants, in the screening and selection of applicants for appointment to the rank of entry-level firefighter, has resulted in disparate impact upon black and Hispanic applicants, is not "job related for the position in question and consistent with business necessity" and does not otherwise
skinnkavaj: So boring when MPOE-PR on the same thread post the same link all over again, instead of debating
decimation: oh yeah, "iq tests" are illeagal, or at least they can form the basis of a civil rights lawsuit. http://vdare.com/articles/professor-gates-officer-crowley-president-obama-and-the-new-york-fire-department
pankkake: I was on a forum where we had this ongoing conspiracy that there really were 2-3 users on the forum and everyone else was sockpuppets
mircea_popescu: weren't they supposed to at some point release a report ?
skinnkavaj: That pankkake and mircea_popescu you are the same person
skinnkavaj: There is a conspiracy on bitcointalk
skinnkavaj: mike_c: I like to buy on others fear
mircea_popescu: decimation iq tests are illegal in the us ?!
skinnkavaj: And why is it closed in the first place
decimation: which put them at risk of a civil-rights lawsuit
decimation: the point is, any test that would be given to an applicant to attempt to detect his or her conscientiousness would be illeagal, like IQ tests are (in the US)
decimation: the problem is that actually accomplishing this would be racist
mircea_popescu: neurosis correlates with intelligence about to the same effects rot correlates with wood.