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ascii_butugychag: not really.
ascii_butugychag: (the ~actual~ usg would not have it)
ascii_butugychag: the hilarious part about american politicircus is that none of the groups pandered-to actually ever ~get~ so much as a bite of the carrot
ascii_butugychag: 'liberal' in usa means 'panders to these 17 types of losers who exist in loose coalition'
ascii_butugychag: operates on ~groups~, which are largely products of historical accident.
ascii_butugychag: it is far more african than that
ascii_butugychag: american politics doesn't operate on ideologies
ascii_butugychag: 'overton endstop'
ascii_butugychag: he was put on the stage for same reason as, in last cycle, mike gravel
ascii_butugychag: that there is no escape from clitler was obvious years ago
ascii_butugychag: this is so basic that it is even beaten to death in usg standards documents for their crud, in public
ascii_butugychag: new one is introduced over the wire enciphered with old one, but enemy has no idea WHEN.
ascii_butugychag: pill is 'you never see X MB with same key'
ascii_butugychag: handily deals with 'i can get your key after X MB'
ascii_butugychag: incidentally, all block (and even stream) implementations in the battlefield use over-the-wire rekeying
ascii_butugychag sees what mircea_popescu was getting at earlier.
ascii_butugychag: it's 5 quintillion safes that hold 5cent each.
ascii_butugychag: wrong perspective
ascii_butugychag: so mircea_popescu is thinking of key leakage.
ascii_butugychag: if i can't decide friend or foe after first 512byte, then no go
ascii_butugychag: as discussed in the gossipd thread.
ascii_butugychag: you do if you want to follow the NOBODY GETS NOTHING FOR SHOWING UP principle
ascii_butugychag: we're stuck with the net.
ascii_butugychag: enemy has point-to-point links. we - don't.
ascii_butugychag: in what other !
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: this is unproven
ascii_butugychag: which, if you include padding room, is rather questionable at 512b
ascii_butugychag: otherwise stuck with pure rsa
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu knows how block ciphers work, aha?
ascii_butugychag: if block is, e.g, 64kB
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-02-2016#1396374 << if i can't encrypt a 512byte udp (or file off the protocol number as per gossipd thread) single-packet-hello turd, it's useless
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: if this were so, may as well have sent the message in the clear!
ascii_butugychag: that in particular was my concern with existing block ciphers
ascii_butugychag: then what?
ascii_butugychag: unproven hardness of rsa!
ascii_butugychag: and now i wonder how the fuck mircea_popescu can live with rsa
ascii_butugychag: this is rather like arguing that 'cutting a man's abdominal cavity open will weaken and kill him.' YES if we haven't invented antiseptics yet
ascii_butugychag: or i could use it as cryptoanalysis
ascii_butugychag: chaining INDEPENDENT ciphers with INDEPENDENT keys cannot possibly result in added weakness
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-02-2016#1396361 << i could've sworn we had a thread re: this
ascii_butugychag surprised at how mircea_popescu puts up with 'cementing' the abominably-broken gpg set
ascii_butugychag: i'll wait for mircea_popescu to cough up provably-correct cipher..?
ascii_butugychag: what instead?
ascii_butugychag: because i don't have 20 years to wait for discovery of good cipher.
ascii_butugychag: but re: earlier thread, i'ma publish 'g'. and it'll have one or more of the bad old ciphers from gpg. BECAUSE gpg is ~already~ the weak link in the proposed system. or ben_vulpes doesn't get to download his w4r3z
ascii_butugychag: 'this is clever and i have nfi how anyone could possibly attack' is proof of ~nothing~ but the intellectual limits of the author
ascii_butugychag: 'this was confusing to ME' is the basis, EVERY MOTHERFUCKING TIME
ascii_butugychag: rather than provable difficulty.
ascii_butugychag: the basic problem with ALL known block ciphers is that they are based on fairy dust
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-02-2016#1396374 << sorta what bernstein tried to do. fits-in-head ciphers.
ascii_butugychag: precisely, i'd like to not make new-broken-things.
ascii_butugychag: it is, or would be, quite useful, if someone would accept an answer to 'what instead of aes'
ascii_butugychag: i have a proggy, unreleased because dun wanna aes.
ascii_butugychag: but with new proggy, also aes ?
ascii_butugychag: this is something we're stuck with for so long as using gpg
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-02-2016#1396366 << realize, you and everybody else here is using aes in every pgpgram.
ascii_butugychag: i like bernstein but the adoption of his blockciphers by the enemy casts darkness on them.
ascii_butugychag: punkman: it is an example of such, yes
ascii_butugychag: punkman: fits-in-head only plox.
ascii_butugychag: 'amateur hour.'
ascii_butugychag: ^ example.
ascii_butugychag: ;;google bassomatic pgp
ascii_butugychag: ;;google bassomatic
ascii_butugychag: !s bassomatic
ascii_butugychag: BingoBoingo: shit ciphers are for allahsnackbars.
ascii_butugychag: fulfilling fiveyearplan!
ascii_butugychag: blockcipher, blockcipher, somebody gotta gimme a blockcipher
ascii_butugychag: phf: it is very minimal; no free lunch
ascii_butugychag: gonna only get worse.
ascii_butugychag: phf: O(N^2)
ascii_butugychag: with no motherfucking 'idiomatic c'/
ascii_butugychag: we will write our own scheme.
ascii_butugychag: i don't think i will ~ever~ recommend tinyscheme on a box which carries live-fire coin.
ascii_butugychag: esp. once it is actually a debugger and not simply a lame proof of concept as now
ascii_butugychag: but even then, a debugger that listens on tcp is a dangerous thing to have around
ascii_butugychag: thestringpuller: for starters, to find all of the 10,001 buffer overflows in tinyscheme and fix
ascii_butugychag: (which is why i didn't do it)
ascii_butugychag: and this will require modifications of tinyscheme proper
ascii_butugychag: because it needs to disconnect & reconnect i/o terms
ascii_butugychag: however, persisting shiva isn't a trivial thing
ascii_butugychag: spins up a whole lisp universe for just a command or two
ascii_butugychag: so right now a shiva session is really a very 'obese' rpc call
ascii_butugychag: which - when we actually get shiva hooks that ~modify~ as well as read - does have a global lock
ascii_butugychag: and the only thing the worlds share is their trb image
ascii_butugychag: which dies when the latter dies.
ascii_butugychag: well it doesn't lock, but it gives you one lisp world per telnet connection
ascii_butugychag: you end up with ONE repl at a time
ascii_butugychag: right now if you try to use slime-like item with shiva,
ascii_butugychag: nope, it does
ascii_butugychag: i am merely stating this for the benefit of noobz
ascii_butugychag: it does ~not~ need persistent sessions for ~any~ rpc-style usage scenario, note
ascii_butugychag: that is, currently, a shiva runtime is destroyed on hangup
ascii_butugychag: shiva most desperately needs session persistence
ascii_butugychag: no. but i was curious what felipelalli was thinking when he produced this.
ascii_butugychag: cow-man chimera - is grotesque.
ascii_butugychag: men have a place.
ascii_butugychag: cattle have a place.
ascii_butugychag: solid, verified, in java on winblowz aha.
ascii_butugychag: felipelalli: you say this as if you had no choice ?
ascii_butugychag: when do we get 'reactor controlz for the lazy'
ascii_butugychag: felipelalli: java, winblowz ?!
ascii_butugychag: congrats trinque !
ascii_butugychag: debug.log
ascii_butugychag: trb is what, 14 mo. old ?
ascii_butugychag: aha this was the first major 'pgp is broken beyond repair' thread, iirc.
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395502 << mega-recommended to mircea_popescu , great for some indigestion
ascii_butugychag: because they aren't tmsr and do not have our axioms.
ascii_butugychag: which is mega-unsurprising
ascii_butugychag: 'To understand commutation, you should understand why we cannot keep our original patches, but are forced to rely on evil step sisters instead.' << seems like they solved it in the PRECISELY most-anti-vtronic way.
ascii_butugychag: this is axiomatic.
ascii_butugychag: no cycles.
ascii_butugychag: draw this on paper.
ascii_butugychag: which would be a cycle.
ascii_butugychag: as that would require the hash of (-b) and (c') to be equal
ascii_butugychag: PeterL: definitely not
ascii_butugychag: (leave a comment.)
ascii_butugychag: and it is trivially possible to unwind to arbitrary point without creating a cycle
ascii_butugychag: (and this oughta be checked for by a vtron)
ascii_butugychag: punkman: if a patch creates a cycle, it is ipso facto invalid.
ascii_butugychag: they smack of pious fraud, 'this was always perfect, born of the gods'
ascii_butugychag: and i officially consider regrinds a thing to be avoided if at all physically possible
ascii_butugychag: PeterL: imho it is.
ascii_butugychag: or antimatter patch
ascii_butugychag: PeterL: aha, i call this an 'antipatch'
ascii_butugychag: i mean hey, it's ~my~ history of bug-crapping that is being whitewashed over, so i shouldn't complain... but still
ascii_butugychag: but looks like it was done correctly.
ascii_butugychag is still not sure why it was necessary to discard the history and compress the old patch + its fix into a new one
ascii_butugychag: this means that the new patches have the same effect as the old.
ascii_butugychag: supposing that your vtron works correctly
ascii_butugychag: looks like they are
ascii_butugychag: your patches ought to add up to same thing as mine did
ascii_butugychag: what i am expecting to see in a correct press is for the trees to be IDENTICAL
ascii_butugychag: mod6: waitasec
ascii_butugychag: phf: not so much unpressable, but that ~you~ lost the ancestors
ascii_butugychag: no apparent differences.
ascii_butugychag: safe to fire.
ascii_butugychag: mod6: ok now ~that's~ it
ascii_butugychag: your local one consists of all of the ones you downloaded for which you have the signatures you accept as valid
ascii_butugychag: but the global, imaginary tree contains all vpatches ever authored
ascii_butugychag: mod6 doesn't have to host it on his site
ascii_butugychag: every patch ever written ~is in the tree~ as it appears to archaeologists
ascii_butugychag: and the whole point of it.
ascii_butugychag: this is intrinsic to how v works
ascii_butugychag: they get orphaned.
ascii_butugychag: BUT they are not in the longest chain!
ascii_butugychag: the mistakes live forever.
ascii_butugychag: using renaming for curation is intensely anti-vtronic.
ascii_butugychag: mod6, ben_vulpes, mircea_popescu, et al can produce curated trees simply by signing.
ascii_butugychag: no. imho it is the entirely wrong way to go about it.
ascii_butugychag: every. single. time.
ascii_butugychag: ~patch submitter~ has the responsibility of coming up with a unique name.
ascii_butugychag: does not require 1000 extra lines of regex crapola in any.
ascii_butugychag: this also handily LEAVES ALONE all existing vtrons
ascii_butugychag: demanding that world move and rearrange itself because somebody wants to reuse a name, is lunacy.
ascii_butugychag: it is sanity.
ascii_butugychag: this is not a hurdle.
ascii_butugychag: for all time.
ascii_butugychag: not duplicate? accepted, without motherfucking mangling
ascii_butugychag: submit duplicate ? rejected.
ascii_butugychag: jurov: how about we have the simple and sane solution - a name can be used once.
ascii_butugychag: and produces CONSTANT timestamp.
ascii_butugychag: cardano for instance will NOT have a clock
ascii_butugychag: also using signature timestamps for anything is idiotic
ascii_butugychag: this is nasty
ascii_butugychag: and existing patches - renamed, etc
ascii_butugychag: jurov: sure but now every vtron would need to be rewritten to actually break down filenames
ascii_butugychag: and i have no intention of asking people to use a patched pgptron simply so they can use v
ascii_butugychag: existing pgptrons do not, afaik, allow you to specify a custom timestamp
ascii_butugychag: who are not the patch author
ascii_butugychag: by OTHER PEOPLE
ascii_butugychag: polarbeard: because sigs submitted arbitrarily later than the patch !!!
ascii_butugychag: i'm all for not-doing-it
ascii_butugychag: also all existing vtrons, afaik, match sigs to patches by using the filename.
ascii_butugychag: e.g., mircea_popescu signs my patch, etc
ascii_butugychag: jurov: how will you deal with sigs produced after the patch submission date ?
ascii_butugychag: the trees, as i understand, ought to be ~the same~ after each scenario
ascii_butugychag: i wanted to see a diff of my tree (pvs, and my pvs fix, and shiva, and the shiva fix) vs yours (where the patches and their bugfixes were agglomerated)
ascii_butugychag: well then this is not what i asked for
ascii_butugychag: it is as if the pvs fix is not in one of the trees ?
ascii_butugychag: mod6: something is very wrong here
ascii_butugychag: jurov: also why do we have sha1 in the mix
ascii_butugychag: nono this re: mod6's thing
ascii_butugychag: why is there any difference ?
ascii_butugychag: see why ?
ascii_butugychag: the two trees, diffed.
ascii_butugychag: the tree.
ascii_butugychag: not the v output
ascii_butugychag: i wanted a diff of a) the result of applying my original patches b) the result of applying yours
ascii_butugychag: mod6: nope.
ascii_butugychag: it fucking breaks v!
ascii_butugychag: jurov: the latter is a no-go because sigs !
ascii_butugychag: it can be viewed as an lxr.
ascii_butugychag: and if it can be pressed to,
ascii_butugychag: so long as every patch ever submitted can be pressed to, the thing works correctly.
ascii_butugychag: and show a coherent tree
ascii_butugychag: without manual curation every time
ascii_butugychag: jurov: for humans, but the idea here is that it ought to be able to swallow new patches
ascii_butugychag: i was pissed because turdatron did not rename both
ascii_butugychag: gotta rename the sig too
ascii_butugychag: can rename all you like
ascii_butugychag: nobody signs the names
ascii_butugychag: jurov: append '-old' to the old name ?
ascii_butugychag: you already have it.
ascii_butugychag: polarbeard: comes with gcc
ascii_butugychag: i strongly suspect that we will uncover a deadlock.
ascii_butugychag: but not until then!
ascii_butugychag: then fire.
ascii_butugychag: if no block for... 1hr+ ?
ascii_butugychag: external proggy watches log
ascii_butugychag: it needs to be on auto-trigger
ascii_butugychag: somebody try this ?
ascii_butugychag: !s massif
ascii_butugychag: this is sorta like what i did with massif
ascii_butugychag: how to determine, without major surgery, what a wedged node is doing
ascii_butugychag: soo i had an idea
ascii_butugychag: (it is in the global idiot lock)
ascii_butugychag: incidentally, i found that a blackholed node won't respond to rpc
ascii_butugychag: (or do any other useful work)
ascii_butugychag: but thing is, i specifically am interested in what the thing is doing when it is ~unable to produce log~
ascii_butugychag: the logs suck arse
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: sorta why i'd rather plot externally than grep
ascii_butugychag: or grep, sure
ascii_butugychag: (write it in shiva!)
ascii_butugychag: you're in for a surprise.
ascii_butugychag: plot block receipt times.
ascii_butugychag: if you haven't see it.
ascii_butugychag: chances are you simply aren't looking.
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