Apocalyptic: "The lesson for anyone in the public domain should already be clear: Don't try to answer rumours on Reddit, unless you are also prepared to provide cast iron proof of what you say, don't discuss your family affairs on a public forum, and especially don't mention your children - this is stupid beyond belief"
bounce: apparently biometrics stays afloat on the pretty pix in teh moveez, for if you spend but a few seconds thinking about it, it becomes obvious that it cannot be a good fit for the purpose
fluffypony: "Yes I am Mirceau Popescu soon to be extradited to the USSA"
fluffypony: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/232v5n/the_full_picture_from_danny_brewster/cgt568i?context=4
BingoBoingo: bounce: A big point is that OpenBSD is already on Vax working well, and they are very unlikely to abandon it.
fluffypony: kakobrekla: then you go along
mircea_popescu: they're in for some fun...
BingoBoingo: bounce: Sure but I dunno what a MIPs cooks as. A Vax though is a noble animal that has the potential for a delicious meat pie. Also just the sound of Vaxberry Pie works.
kakobrekla: it was the hamster.
Apocalyptic: seriously the guy isn't even trying to sound legit
mircea_popescu: fluffypony there is a test.
fluffypony: it could start with the difference between your and you're, than and then, and (to spite me) principal and principle:-P
mircea_popescu: bounce tbh biometrics was a thing of the 70s i thought. pretty much all sf of that decade had it, and by 90s it was in every action movie out there.
fluffypony: maybe there should be a test
mircea_popescu: but you know... what now, make books that even people who won't learn the alphabet can read ?
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: agreed. is this about the time I self-identify as a bitcoin-assets cultist?
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: so survival of the secure-ist?
fluffypony: kakobrekla: http://thehackernews.com/2013/12/SealsWithClubs-bitcoin-poker-hacked-password-dump_20.html
mircea_popescu: <fluffypony> unless you believe user education is going to work and everyone is suddenly going to start using secure one-time passwords :-P << i just belive everyone who isn't is going to be relegated to the salt mines. why should every human qualify as a "user" ?
mircea_popescu: fluffypony "password1234!" is ultra-secure << remember the 88seals88 and pokerseals etc pws ?
Naphex: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/22/iphone_5_touchid_broken_by_chaos_computer_club/ back in '13
mircea_popescu: "I assure you our system is not fundamentally flawed, there are bugs and we try to find them before the customer."
bounce: the only real fix is that we really start thinking about this, and indeed, educate most people --which used to be possible, they learned their letters and numbers too, after all-- instead of just throwing the latest in buzzwordery at it. like "biometrics".
fluffypony: Apocalyptic: this thing - http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/232v5n/the_full_picture_from_danny_brewster/
fluffypony: bounce: also most of the iOS bypass bugs I've played with have exposed photos, or the dialler, or something...not a complete unmitigated unlock
Apocalyptic: what's the last word on danny ?
bounce: the thing is that this "general populace" includes everyone, which to the fone company certainly includes *you*
fluffypony: Naphex: yeah but that's a different attack surface entirely, I'm just talking about taking the general security level of the general populace up a notch
fluffypony: I don't think there's been a successful attack on TouchID / Samsung's fingerprint login that lifted a fingerprint from the device and used it to unlock it?
fluffypony: and unless you know I'm Bob the Billionaire with Billionz in his Bank...why target me?
fluffypony: you need to physically control the device
fluffypony: bounce: we're talking about a significant improvement over the current state of affairs, that isn't snake oil
fluffypony: and moves the attack surface from drive-by, remove attacks, to on-device/in-person attacks
fluffypony: stuff like TouchID when coupled with iCloud Keychain is awesome for the general populace
pankkake: maybe for unlocking the phone if it has been unlocked less than an hour ago, but I would never put more trust in it
fluffypony: remember that like 90% of the world thinks "password" is an ok password, and "password1234" is secure
bounce: hax! and yet you can see paypal deaffirm their religious beliefs in fingerprint "security". no wonder the hatted bunch keeps on having a field day.
Apocalyptic: "Part of the gains or losses for that day are lost" is this acceptable ?
bounce: pretty speedy response at least. but how the fsck do you fail to account for p/l on a day you "restart your systems"? what're they running, batch-only dinosaurs?
Naphex: their response http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/2326dr/evidence_of_critical_bug_found_in_atlas_ats_new/cgt6xs5 :)
jborkl: artifexd ty - I am using a js cache on the server
bounce: bit heavy on the js for a page that doesn't look like it should need any
mike_c: so i dump a 5mb buffer on the stack?
asciilifeform: there is really no reason to still be using CPU archs without bounds checking, hardware-enforced types, mechanical garbage collection, etc.
asciilifeform: also funny how the two 'philosophies' can co-exist in one school. we had an 'operating systems' class. C, naturally. about six people remained to take final exam.
asciilifeform: they give plastic scissors to grade school students, too. - but not shoemakers. not yet.
BingoBoingo: C == Portable language that is dangerous because it offers too many points of failure, Java ==Portable language that places points of failure in the runtime to avoid C's points of failure
asciilifeform: 'we refuse to produce any more C programmers who are a danger to themselves and others.' -- my old dean
bounce: page appears to make some unwarranted assumptions in the layout, but anyway
fluffypony: re-index, and fresh reports are available in the morning
fluffypony: instead of live reporting off DB2 (each business unit pays for DB2 access they use over the month, so it's pricey) it was cheaper to drop and re-copy the entire DB every night to a reporting DB
fluffypony: well that was one of the projects I was on
bounce: not a bad move otherwise. though I'd still be mighty tempted to just quietly start and refactor parts until I have a fully working system, even if it takes a few years
bounce: OS/2 does funky things to the hardware, apparently a bitch to emulate
fluffypony: because rewriting the system would have been too expensive, and IBM sold them on OS/2 in the 80s/90s
fluffypony: literally every single agent/manager/support person in the home loans dept used that
fluffypony: bounce: from about 2003-2007 I was heavily involved with two of the local banks
fluffypony: and then for some reason automation and tooling written in COBOL
bounce: really should do linux (well, *BSD really) thin clients at least for all the desks, and something reasonable for a back-end. which might still be some mainframe or other.
fluffypony: lots of IBM DB2 on the backend if it's really old stuff
fluffypony: bounce: and also seems to be quite an MS shop in many parts, at least with the older more established banks
bounce: bit of an old boys network, apparently. hard to get chummy with if you're not one of them.
Naphex: a lot more risk to expect from handling money and bitcoins then public transport data
bounce: alright, the prosecution rests. ;-)
bounce: if that's a question.... anyway, whose phone's gonna ring when the dashboard turns red?
bounce: so, that's one box with 32cpus does everything except the load balancing?
bounce: ever had the power go out?
fluffypony: davout: I'd probably go Galera Cluster for the DB + something monolithic for the trading engine...python? nfi. I haven't thought this through.
bounce: what's the database like?
davout: Apocalyptic: is it what you think or have you actually benchmarked it ? also cpu cycles are a couple of order of magnitudes cheaper than the time it takes to handle it the code level by hungry humans
Apocalyptic: still better than the thousands of CPU-cycles overhead using that BigDecimal
bounce: YKINMK, and anyway, let the guy explain
mircea_popescu: you're on a 64 bit system, who the fuck is going to deposit enough dollars to take you out of maxint
Apocalyptic: maybe just set some smaller precision on the fiat side
Naphex: i have multi-currency support handled in the engine
bounce: everybody knows accounting should be done on the double
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user assbot to user usagi: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 2 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=usagi | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=usagi | Rated since: Mon Jun 18 12:33:55 2012
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla wins the "longest rate comment" contest.
mircea_popescu: Naphex you know you should be using ints for bitcoin in the first place. wtf decimal bs is this
Naphex: bounce: trading api just hits same engine api server as the frontend
kakobrekla: ;;rate usagi 1 Had a 1140 btc contract with usagi which entitled me to said amount on 2012-08-26. The final payment was done 2013-04-27, totaling 995 btc. The sum was 145 btc short but I agreed to let it slide because of distress on the market of the underlying 'securities' and rapid btc market price rise. The contract did not involve a clause re. wot, but since he is asking back btc, I will leave it here.
bounce: so, java for the back-end and some php for some front. what about the tradig webfront and the trading api?
Apocalyptic: <Naphex> easier to debug, maintain and analyze code others produced // ok this is a point
Naphex: easier to debug, maintain and analyze code others produced
kakobrekla: ;;rate usagi 1 Had a 1140 btc contract with usagi which entitled me to said amount on 2012-08-26. The final payment was done 2013-04-27, totaling 995 btc. The sum was 145 btc short but I agreed to let it slide because of distress on the market of the underlying 'securities' and rapid btc market price rise. The contract did not involve a requirement of leaving the feedback, but since he is asking to give him back btc 'for old time
Naphex: this around the location where i live
Naphex: programmer availability would have been another one
Apocalyptic: *the
Naphex: Apocalyptic: they don't kill too much performance when you are sensible about it
fluffypony: I'll take an exchange with Java on the back than PHP any day
Apocalyptic: pankkake, java and amazing don't belong to the same sentence, ever :D
pankkake: java is amazing in the sense that it performs well at benchmark
Apocalyptic: <mircea_popescu> java is focused on security ?! // surprised as well, it's not focused on performance either
Naphex: i expect more vulnerable code from C guys then Java guys tbh
Naphex: and you clean the input through load balancers before fowarding in it
mircea_popescu: wywialm questions for the ages.
Naphex: mircea_popescu: yeah, its not like its running in the browser
Naphex: php for some of the frontend with no handling of critical data
Naphex: Apocalyptic: java for the backend
Apocalyptic: what language then ?
Naphex: bounce: well for the trading engine i focused a lot on performance and security
mircea_popescu: jborkl that they apologise ? ya
jborkl: mircea_popescu you see the American Airways twitter reponse yesterday?
bounce: whatever you think is important about developing and running the exchange.
Naphex: bounce: setup of what, like the workstation?
benkay: i'm here thestringpuller
Naphex: danielpbarron: one of the main programmers behind it
asciilifeform: 'The Google Bus protesters have said that the company should build housing on its campus, but the Mountain View city council has explicitly forbidden Google from doing just that. Theyve argued that its to protect the citys burrowing owl population.' << real estate parasites want to live too
Naphex: hoping to finish the data plant and eur support sometime next week
Naphex: already rolled out api, just need some accessors to help people with the public data
gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hold%20up | hold up. wait a minute! postpone your plans, there's something that must be addressed immediately. hold up, let me grab some munchies before we get goin.
mircea_popescu: back then, it was."
mircea_popescu: they'll be the 51th state of their respective local superpowers, and be used exactly like san francisco is used today
wywialm: and hordes of speciffically flavoured keynesians fearing the zero lower bound of interest rates, the called for fiscal expansion as a substitute
mircea_popescu: "Today, the tech industry is apparently on track to destroy one of the worlds most valuable cultural treasures, San Francisco, "
wywialm: that was before Kuroda at the BoJ, of course
wywialm: i remember some economists claiming that e.g. Japan couldn't inflate any further by printing money
mircea_popescu: they don't seem to want to.
mircea_popescu: of course they could.
wywialm: after all, inflating the currency is not so difficult
wywialm: if the dollar wasn't their main reference point and concern, PBoC could sustain their previous money growth at will
mircea_popescu: wywialm many possible reasons. they had a number of local crises brewing for a long time, when your neighbour is arrested for unkempt yard is a good time to do a little lawn mowing in your own.
mircea_popescu: so while it wouldn't be alaksa per se, there's plenty of places it can be.
mircea_popescu: their asian interests marginally exceed us and europe combined, for instance.
wywialm: why then the china monetary growth halts so rapidly when US QE3 is gradually folding, both in terms of dollar money supply growth and expectation of its future path?
mircea_popescu: meanwhile it's a lot more complicated, they also peg to the euro, they also peg to a russian synthetic-currency derived out of energy holdings,
mircea_popescu: chinese banks were built that way briefly in the 70s, i would guess.
wywialm: i don't believe china would need a pretext if they were sufficiently prepared
wywialm: china banking system is built upon dollar reserves, after they evaporate, china could only use military force. And when it comes to war, any claim can serve only as a pretext
wywialm: and banks are currently increasingly departed from their shareholders, too close to washington, dc
wywialm: i once gave it (the china matter) a thought, and currently i believe it is to weak a claim. in case of default, china would get much much more hurt than us
mircea_popescu: china holding us debt is no sort of statement of confidence in the usg, quite the contrary, it's a claim on its asshole.
mircea_popescu: banks reduce to their shareholders, and foreign sovereigns don't count
mircea_popescu: wywialm we were talking fo the {1%, 99%} set I thought
wywialm: from my knowledge, the highest exposure is interbank collateral, bank reserves and China
mircea_popescu: wywialm actually the exposure to treasuries is mostly pension funds.
Naphex: mircea_popescu: funny how people always remember the victim count :P
asciilifeform: yes, the one set up by kgb
wywialm: still, these people have some exposure to us treasuries - and yields are further than anytime from signaling default
asciilifeform: 'occupy lolstreet' is analogous to zhirinovsky's political party in the late ussr
bounce: so? hairline cracks are much less % of aeroplanes, but if you don't watch out the wings might still fall off
mircea_popescu: and the people that matter are the 1%, not the average fucktard on reddit/the metro.
mircea_popescu: wywialm this is why i made my linearity objeciton. it won't collapse because of "cracks". it will collapse because all the people that matter are fucking sick of it.
joecool: $4k to "pay for the damage" who gets paid $4k to hose off a wall?
pankkake: dexX7: the basics are: reverse dns of sending server should be related to the expeditor domain (or at least be something), and SPF entries are always a plus
bounce: they're angels, that's why
mircea_popescu: how the fuck is ycombinator involved in everything unsavoury.
mircea_popescu: fluffypony so basically it sells you gmail protection services ? the spam racket ?
mircea_popescu: is this vuscan fellow the son of the oil factory vuscan, with the 3 victims traffic accident ?
asciilifeform: 'NFC technology, you can be certain that the chip inside is exactly your chip- it has a unique authenticity signature, non-clonable, and most usefully, an access counter.' << someone needs 'protocol vs. promise' lesson?
mircea_popescu: Naphex you'll prolly have to point out to your boss you're doing more marketing/pr than anyone there.
bounce: checked the DNSBLs?
mircea_popescu: the us can collapse in all of two weeks, as tech stands today.
mircea_popescu: <wywialm> maybe the key difference is the time - and gradual nature << they didn't have the press. which is why it took longer. ussr didn't have the internet, which is why it took so damned long.
dexX7: well, should not be much of a problem, even if it's a blackhole at the moment. thanks fluffy anyway :)
mircea_popescu: <wywialm> ...but it's hard for me to believe that us is the first in line << it's the first in line of the set {US}
mircea_popescu: bounce as a "map the rot" project this is probably valuable even if it gets no direct results.
fluffypony: dexX7: yes, but the email will look like it's coming from the intermediary, no? so it will have to be in your SPF?
bounce: likewise the ottoman empire
wywialm: so it's not easy to perform generalizations here. Probably most obvious example of decentralizing "collapse" (or rather decline) would be Rome
dexX7: i set the ns records of the hop in the domain settings and the intermediate simply redirects the mails
wywialm: bounce, surely, but the ussr collapse, which is (as i noticed) main reference point now, lead to less centralization
fluffypony: dexX7: is the intermediary hop in your SPF record?
fluffypony: dexX7: typically they let it through but flag it as spam unless something is very wrong
bounce: noticed how the french revolution caused /more/, not less, centralisation? france hasn't quite recovered yet.
wywialm: ...but it's hard for me to believe that us is the first in line
dexX7: can anyone tell me how google and other providers handle email rejections? i have some trouble with a hoster which i'm using as intermediate hop to relay my mails.. and currently every request/mail is rejected. service said they'll fix it "in the next 24 hours" -.-"
dignork: asciilifeform: yes, no idea where the name came from
bounce: point was to make visible the rot. what to do after that, well... can even just eyeball the thing and look at crumbling acceleration rates and such
dignork: mircea_popescu: I talked with Spondoolies-Tech CEO, he'll try to get to this channel later tonight, if you have any specific questions I can forward then in the meantime
asciilifeform: '...If the number of cement chunks falling out of your bridge keeps doubling, you can compute the moment when every last piece of the bridge will be in the river, and that is your upper bound.'
BingoBoingo: wywialm: Basically the thing to hope for is USSR style collapse rather than Somalia style collapse
wywialm: i can imagine us collapse in the sense of it falling apart with some central power still serving the debt etc - not very realistic scenario, sure. I just wanted to ask to be sure
asciilifeform: an answer, you might hear something like this: If it doesnt collapse within a year, then it might stay up for another two. And if it stays up that long, then it might stay up for another decade. But if it stays up for an entire decade, then it will probably collapse within a year or two of that, because, given its rate of deterioration, at that point it will be entirely unclear what is holding it up.'
asciilifeform: 'predicting that something is going to happen is a lot easier than predicting when something will happen. Suppose you have an old bridge: the concrete is cracked, chunks of it are missing with rusty rebar showing through. An inspector declares it structurally deficient. This bridge is definitely going to collapse at some point, but on what date? That is something that nobody can tell you. If you push for
mircea_popescu: bounce here : "like inspecting a building for structural problems or a pipe or aeroplane for hairline cracks or, well, you know. only on the country level. roads, utilities, but also government, how much and what kinds of corruption, that sort of thing. map it out."
Naphex: mircea_popescu: it's suposed to be wholly transparent, so yeah printing the cert was included
mircea_popescu: wywialm us collapse = usg collapse. what else ? not like kansas will fall off the map or something.
wywialm: bounce, mircea_popescu, do you imagine that us collapse would come together with general usG collapse, including official default?
mircea_popescu: seems the assbot was asleep at that time, but this was discussed once before : http://dpaste.com/1780498/
Naphex: mircea_popescu: Horea Vuscan is the owner
bounce hasn't even started with the study. but it looks less well than it perhaps ought to be.
asciilifeform: a (very theoretical) pill against 'black helicopter' etc.
wywialm: bounce, what is your estimate of the current us cracks?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do you know the reason ?
bounce: like inspecting a building for structural problems or a pipe or aeroplane for hairline cracks or, well, you know. only on the country level. roads, utilities, but also government, how much and what kinds of corruption, that sort of thing. map it out.
bounce: IMO there's a larger issue but this is as good a hook as any, and that's that plenty the infrastructure relies on same being present and functional. there's a few ways to guard against that, and we might investigate them all.
mircea_popescu: the russians don't agree, but i would say the way the soviet union collapsed is the right way to collapse.
bounce: what, there's a right way to collapse?
mircea_popescu: curious how long they last.
mircea_popescu: http://cryptome.org/2014/04/home-made-sec.htm << cryptome bravely wades into the public, withoiut a +m
BingoBoingo: Basically there are a lot of people who want the US to collapse the wrong way, and they were ready to see it happen over cows.
mircea_popescu: iirc he worked there, can prolly get you in touch with whoever.
mircea_popescu: anyway, they're like 20kj per shot.
bounce: that sounds like what I'd been thinking already: they're looking for excuses to dislike, instead of just admitting they don't like that party
mircea_popescu: pankkake kinda has to be a dildo, cause otherwise body armor.
mircea_popescu: they're tracers tho
BingoBoingo: No less than $3.50 quickly goes up from there
mircea_popescu: Naphex get rated then it's a breeze
mircea_popescu: neilol i meant Neil. you, i think you'll have to get into the wot first
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Yeah. Still the expensive part with something like that is feeding it.
neilol: not sure of the process but if i need it
BingoBoingo: With the 4 years of service mentioned $1923/month
mircea_popescu: It'll take plenty of military paychecks to cover the $5,600 price tag
BingoBoingo: From 2010, related to the Cow business in Utah http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/03/oath-keepers
mircea_popescu: in the eu too i mean
mircea_popescu: yeah, you can get regional marks in the us too, for a coupla hundred iirc.
TestingUnoDosTre: Oh my I love the term USBS. please use moar often
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: was that costly? I'm an Italian citizen, wife is German, so I can register an EU trademark instead of the shitty meaningless South African one
mircea_popescu: they have a reciprocity deal so mickey mouse can be owned by disney
pankkake: the real question is why would you care?
mircea_popescu: they better pay up.
mike_c: do they spell it wrong too?
mircea_popescu: so today i got to send them a notice that they either self-destruct and apologize or else i'm suing them. in, obviouisly, romanian court.
mircea_popescu: soo, some twerps in spain decided "trilema" sounds kinda cool, started a foundation whatever. i sent them a friendly note about six months ago pointing out that it's a registered trademark and they're playing with fire. which they ignored.