fluffypony: it's just been my experience that customers get excited about the most arbitrary stuff
ThickAsThieves: surely theyd prefer colume discounts or referral programs or whatever
ThickAsThieves: same for the corporate gifting and such
ThickAsThieves: it seems a little petty in the context
ThickAsThieves: just seems there are better options
ThickAsThieves: but i'm not sure i'd outright forbid them
benkay: beans all over the floor
mike_c: there is only one coin (beside bitcoin)
fluffypony: ThickAsThieves: no, I know one of the guys that is involved with it, but no affiliation beyond that
benkay: i'm still waiting to see these cellular automota-based PoW coins.
fluffypony: in fact, there's more experimentation with stuff like that being done by the OCLHashCat guys than in the mining community
fluffypony: ThickAsThieves: scrypt-n and X11 based coins will still need miners, and the BOINC/Folding@Home crowd will need it to
ThickAsThieves: with the incoming Scrypt ASICs, does that threaten efforts like your PCI-e multiplexer?
benkay: looks like the rentalstarter bagholders grow weary of getting fucked raw.
ThickAsThieves: well, any time any investor gets money, include you (outside of your salary), they all get their cut
fluffypony: ThickAsThieves: how else do you do it then? as an LoC?
ThickAsThieves: maybe these are details of negotiation with investors
ThickAsThieves: i'm not sure there should be any talking of sharing profits in any dividend sorta way
benkay: everything else is just like "woahaoaowwywowao i want to do all these different bitcoin things!"
benkay: the only thing that makes sense to actually pursue is the rack building thing, and that will live and die by whether or not you can land your asic partner.
ThickAsThieves: what do they know
fluffypony: I can make that clearer in the proposal
fluffypony: I don't want to "grow the farm"
fluffypony: ThickAsThieves: I like getting stuck into the technical stuff with it, sure, but it *is* a means to an end
benkay: (i've yet to see the mining pitch that actually made sense under real world constraints)
ThickAsThieves: sound slike you wanna play the game and take ordering risks, etc
ThickAsThieves: i'd like to see separate charts and numbers on the mining farm profit/expense
fluffypony: benkay: yes, but when you're mining scamcoins and dumping them it's always reasonably profitable :-P
ThickAsThieves: that elec cost sheet seems incomplete, i'm pretty sure there are even cheaper places
fluffypony: ASICs certainly aren't, better to flip them
ThickAsThieves: can you show that buying them at all is necessary?
ThickAsThieves: can you show that continually mining with units you buy for spec purposes is actually more profitable than selling them once you are done building hardware for them?
ThickAsThieves: the graph doesnt show expenses
fluffypony: not hiding it, it's mentioned and detailed, and even obvious in the graph
fluffypony: or whether I'll end up explaining why so much it'll be pages of cruft
fluffypony: ThickAsThieves: it's purposely light on numbers, I'm not sure whether including all the data on the downward slump inspires investor confidence
fluffypony: benkay: we weren't able to, the dude that rents them is dumb and only lets you observe, not take actual data (although with the new camera he has apparently he'll give us pics and data after)
ThickAsThieves: but is there also historical totals?
fluffypony: benkay: we did FLIR imaging when designing, we're waiting for the FLIR camera to be available for rent again so we can have that data accessible
ThickAsThieves: the momentarily depressed cryptocurrency economy, OpenRigs is gearing itself up for the next massive wave of
benkay: fluffypony: i don't really buy your claims about heat flow. those are the kinds of claims that need to be backed by sims and such.
ThickAsThieves: identify where your target audience might be spending their money instead
ThickAsThieves: in other words
fluffypony: ThickAsThieves: not so much on the frames side, they're too small to mention, but for PayBee yes
Naphex: then fowards to bitpay?
Naphex: but we wouldnlt even think about that before doing the exchange first
fluffypony: Naphex: the whole point of PayBee is *not* to do fiat directly, tho - once the funds are in BTC it goes straight into the merchant's Bitpay account
fluffypony: they were just the most willing to make the API changes we needed and they have the volume
fluffypony: Naphex: Cryptsy, but it's fairly agnostic to the exchange
jurov: there should be also deaf and deaf-mute investors
ThickAsThieves: probably could be written better from there, but yknow
ThickAsThieves: "Investors can choose to be silent investors, providing feedback on decisions only,or active investors that play a role in the decision-making process and in the ultimate success of OpenRigs."
ThickAsThieves: "Investors can choose to be silent investors, receiving feedback on decisions only,or active investors that will play a role in the decision making process and in the ultimate success of OpenRigs."
ThickAsThieves: isnt the "Bee" brand kinda taboo now?
ThickAsThieves: other than to confirm your rigs are practical
ozbot: Wireless mesh network - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
fluffypony: I think if they haven't signed in to iCloud/iMessage from an iOS device it takes them off the active list or whatevs
fluffypony: and it doesn't offer the blue iMessage option or anything any longer
fluffypony: yeah, I resigned myself to sacrificing all measure of privacy the minute I got my Nokia N95 and realised all the crap that could go on in the background
benkay: i'll probably have to keep the old number alive and set up an auto-responder saying 'this number is dead please try blah blah blah..."
benkay: if i ever want to get off the iphone i have to get a new number, because my current number is cached in every iphone that's ever texted me and will go over apple's servers no matter no matter.
moiety: i never used whats app, they kept info of people on their users contacts lists that didnt even have the app o.o
moiety: i got a "and who's this?" once .. "zoom in, its the doctors -_-"
moiety: no just sitting huffing being a retard. even though if you check the map of my city it would show a Tesco store or something
fluffypony: that's when they "surprise" you with a visit to your house, right?
fluffypony shudders at the thought
davout: moiety: the best way to answer that is "because i didn't feel like it"
fluffypony: moiety: WhatsApp is the worst with that..."I see the message got delivered because there's a second tick...are we fighting now that you're not replying?"
fluffypony: benkay: yeah, one of the reasons why I married my wife was because she wasn't full of shit like that (full of shit in other ways, but not pedantry/jealousy like that)
fluffypony: well I suppose it's better than the "how come when you messaged that you love me you only put 2 exclamation marks when I put 4?" argument
davout: kakobrekla: as long as we don't have the same gf :D
kakobrekla: ah lol davout http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com/?quote=102 , i had _exactly_ (down to the number) the same argument
benkay: i mean the idiotic format lets one absolutely position letters so why not sigs?
benkay: fluffypony: don't quite recall much more than writing my name on a piece of paper and dropping it into the pdf.
fluffypony: benkay: didn't know that - but doesn't the form need to have a dedicated PDF-compliant signature block to use that?
moiety: thanks :) i'll try this, i'm not sure if they will accept via email though
benkay: os x preview will now capture and insert signatures from the laptop camera, fluffypony
fluffypony: then
fluffypony: is using Preview to fill in forms (use the annotation tools where necessary)
moiety: i'd like to see gribbles logs for the past day or two... so many attempts at laser kttehs
benkay: i have yet to actually remember the laser-kitteh command, moiety
Naphex: party finished over there hehe so too late ;l
benkay: !down thestringpuller
gribble: Nick 'thestringpuller', with hostmask 'thestringpuller!~leflor@99-39-97-12.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net', is not identified.
benkay: ;;ident thestringpuller
gribble: Nick 'thestringpuller', with hostmask 'thestringpuller!~leflor@99-39-97-12.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net', is not identified.
benkay: i was preparing a frontal assault on Nautilus Minerals and Reaction Engines Ltd. when I acquired a redhead who understandably has no desire to live in either rural Britain or within commuting distance of deep-sea deposits.
benkay: davout: the story gets more amusing
fluffypony wades out of the CoinDesk comment section
kakobrekla: thats the one
asciilifeform: anyone who doesn't grasp this is a pwnie, doomed to be ridden by children in the park.
asciilifeform: either would require suitable technological building blocks
asciilifeform: there are two basic strategies for invincibility. biologists say 'r-strategy and m-strategy.'
asciilifeform: Duffer1: see the point about satellites.
bounce: http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2014/04/23/emergency_services_network/ -- I thought they already had a unified service. so, how hard is it to cook up a few suitable radio designs and add some backing management software?
gribble: Tandem Computers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandem_Computers>; TACL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TACL>; Guardian 90: A Distributed Operating System Optimized ...: <http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/tandem/TR-90.8.pdf>
asciilifeform: is anyone involved with the crapsat even vaguely familiar with how adult machines are built?
gribble: Flash memory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory>; SSD endurance myths and legends - saga continues in 3D: <http://www.storagesearch.com/ssdmyths-endurance.html>; How to stretch the life of your SSD storage | PCWorld: <http://www.pcworld.com/article/2043634/how-to-stretch-the-life-of-your-ssd-storage.html>
gribble: Free Today - Paragon Migrate OS to SSD 3.0 - Windows 7 Help Forums: <http://www.sevenforums.com/software/290054-free-today-paragon-migrate-os-ssd-3-0-a.html>; Samsung XP941 NGFF M.2 PCIe SSDs in RAID 0 - The SSD Review: <http://www.thessdreview.com/our-reviews/samsung-xp941-m-2-pcie-ssds-raid-0-worlds-smallest-ssd-combination-hits-2gbs/>; OCZ Agility 4 SATA III 2.5" SSD (EOL): (1 more message)
fluffypony: someone else said "tungsten is the high density option- polyethylene is the low option. also, for circular orbits below 1000 km radiation is nominal in terms of bitflips etc."
fluffypony: "An SSD is non-magnetic storage, there is not really any protection needed. Put a metal case around it and im pretty sure it can drop from the atmosphere into the ground at free fall speed and still operate once free'd from the metal casing"
fluffypony: why do I open my big mouth in the comments section
asciilifeform: there's a certain engineering dynamic at work, where the poor schmuck begins to contemplate what it would take to -actually- solve the problem, and then his starfish begins to pucker
kakobrekla: happens all the time
asciilifeform imagines the moneyed idiot who launches a 'pc-compatible' running existing softs, for security-critical application
asciilifeform: e.g. computer suitable for the application.
asciilifeform: we haven't the chicken
asciilifeform: now if you like yer brain coming out yer ears, remember that launching (orbit, sea, mars, wherever) is the easy part
kakobrekla: take me with you, ill pay for half the fuel.
HeySteve: "for the amount saved in mass, you may like to add extra avionics to BitSat."
HeySteve: someone is offering his 3d printed cubesat to the project
asciilifeform: get thee to library.
HeySteve: asciilifeform, if you're willing to talk me through the science I'll write about Cubesats fails because F coindesk
asciilifeform: ideally they'd have a solid-state (piezo?) 'swim bladder'
asciilifeform: you want them bobbing about as close to SOFAR depth as possible
ThickAsThieves: they would live inside a whale
asciilifeform: make the chassis from 'inconel' or similar alloy.
HeySteve: is it the launch vehicle, ones deployed low fail quickly perhaps?
asciilifeform: sink'em. comms via sonar. no radiation problems, no decay, use thermocline with 'peltier' for energy source.
HeySteve: it seems they CAN stay up a while, what is different between the ones that last 1000+ days and the month long ones?
gribble: SOFAR channel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOFAR_channel>; SOFAR channel - NOAA Ocean Explorer: <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/sound01/background/acoustics/media/sofar.html>; DOSITS: Sound Travel in the SOFAR Channel: <http://www.dosits.org/science/soundmovement/sofar/sofartravel/>
fluffypony: davout: they're probably thinking they can just send a Raspberry Pi and an SSD up and it'll work
ThickAsThieves: "There are so many smart forward thinkers in the digital currency space. I'm so impressed."
ThickAsThieves: commenters sayng stuff like "This satellite is really important for the future of bitcoin."
davout: fluffypony: aren't SSD drives the least durable one could pick?
asciilifeform: pathetic lifetimes.
HeySteve: are thrusters required to stop the orbit degrading or something?
asciilifeform: there's an obvious attribute of 'adult' sats that is nowhere
fluffypony: "a 512GB SSD Drive will do in the satellite for the coming 10 years. It will barely consume power and generate next to no heat at all.... It is not like we are sending miners into space, just public nodes carrying the blockchain...."
fluffypony: holy cowbell the ignornace
asciilifeform: http://northernrob.smugmug.com/Other/Various-Bike-Pics/i-Z3Vn98M/0/L/Richs-Royal-Enfield-Nuke-Bike-L.jpg
fluffypony: asciilifeform: but you don't have (c) and tm after that, so how can anyone trust you to store their BTC safely?
mircea_popescu: and there's no such thing as gravity etc.
mircea_popescu: by proving that, for instance, kali-of-the-tits holds up houses
ThickAsThieves: is US economy an offender of your theory?
mircea_popescu: and the walls that fall vice versa
mircea_popescu: the concept of load bearing can be illustrated by proving that the walls that stand actually have loadbearing ability in excess of the load
mircea_popescu: of fucking course it does, whether it falls down or not.
mircea_popescu: it's a discussion of whether it has load bearing walls.
mircea_popescu: no but listen, this is not a discussion of whether a house collapsed
ThickAsThieves: you can't say, the definition of "definition" is definition
ThickAsThieves: other than by saying it's missing mircean qualities
bounce: just add brokers, and free market theory says it'll cease to be broken. well, at least the brokers won't go broke.
ThickAsThieves: so what steps are needed to make this theory a law?
mircea_popescu: that's wehy it';s so important, that theory : because it describes the limits of the possibility of being,
mircea_popescu: HeySteve voice here is a wholly innovative, quite well designed thing. it has exactly nothing in common with "moderation" as used on the interwebs forums
mircea_popescu: blockchain would only add some further trust to the already existing states, is all.
mircea_popescu: <HeySteve> timestamping doesn't initially seem to add much to a WoT, but I'm starting to think the more data points the easier to spot Sibyls <<< wot has timestamps as it is.
mircea_popescu: <ThickAsThieves> first it is not yet proven that all systems require an "mircean" economy, though i suspect they do << all systems contain one, whether aware or not, i'd say.
mircea_popescu: <HeySteve> I'm still stuck on this Sybil thing :) if you identify a puppet troupe, is there a mechanism to neutralise it beyond information-sharing? << no, by definition.
fluffypony: there's that point about #bitcoin-assets +m producing an aristocracy, of sorts, but that's not the same as modereation
HeySteve: fluffypony, nonetheless it is necessary to have at least level 2 trust with assbot or be vouched for to participate
ThickAsThieves: i think the point of the mircean way is to have "moderation" be dynamic to the viewer
HeySteve: heh mircea_popescu, I mean something inspired by the voicing in here
Naphex: A sells Douche to B through bitcoin, B cand then send a signed rate after.
ThickAsThieves: but this might be due to my ignorance with problems of using the chain for things it wasnt "designed" for
ThickAsThieves: i also have no basic problem with integrating a WoT into the blockchain
Naphex: and from the same source
ThickAsThieves: i have no argument there
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user ThickAsThieves to user kakobrekla: Level 1: 3, Level 2: 18 via 7 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=ThickAsThieves&dest=kakobrekla | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=kakobrekla | Rated since: Fri May 13 18:50:53 2011
HeySteve: I'm thinking rating will be a transaction, so that's timestamped and recorded. as you say, it is another level of context
HeySteve: an individual is easy to fake, a real network much harder (so my theory goes)
HeySteve: timestamping doesn't initially seem to add much to a WoT, but I'm starting to think the more data points the easier to spot Sibyls
kakobrekla: wheres the chopstick in this thing
ThickAsThieves: apparently even the spork needed innovating
gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=spork | And on the 8th day, God decided that Adam and Eve needed a multipurpose silverware item. Thus, the spork, a combination of the prongede wrath of th...
ThickAsThieves: wouldnt it be more productive to improve the existing one by helping with decentralization efforts or such?
ThickAsThieves: it seems odd to me that you are recreating the WoT, when it already exists
HeySteve: oh yes, they are separate
HeySteve: the goal is to make a less scammy cryptocurrency
ThickAsThieves: if both, handle them separately
ThickAsThieves: first it is not yet proven that all systems require an "mircean" economy, though i suspect they do
HeySteve: mircea_popescu suggested I share one of the key elements, which is that trust rating influences mining rewards
ThickAsThieves: we could run it through the test
HeySteve: oh, well I am talking more with a view to my project, still reading on MP's theory
ThickAsThieves: well is that a feature required within Mircea's theory?
HeySteve: I'm still stuck on this Sybil thing :) if you identify a puppet troupe, is there a mechanism to neutralise it beyond information-sharing?
ThickAsThieves: but i think it qualifies nonetheless
ThickAsThieves: in WoT? For every user created, each other user received 10 pos "coins" and 10 neg "coins"
Naphex: where do you get them points from?
ThickAsThieves: they always exist
ThickAsThieves: you take them back
HeySteve: how about a system where ratings are destroyed if the issuer is collectively deemed a fake or scammer?
ThickAsThieves: (just pointing out the value is dynamic)
HeySteve: rating points are only as good as their issuer
fluffypony: yes, but how do you exchange them between individuals?
fluffypony: ThickAsThieves: what's the medium of exchange?
Naphex: showing the most voted stuff up
Naphex: to get the hot thing going
Naphex: don't know whats going on but one of the guys there is the lead economist at CCP/Eve Online http://vib.is/fraedsla/bein-utsending/
ThickAsThieves: they are like a backup plan or someshit
HeySteve: so what he proposes is honest miners submit double spends to certain pools, if those pools process them then ... what? all their blocks are rejected by the rest of the network somehow?
ThickAsThieves: Too high or too low there ain't no in-betweens
ThickAsThieves: these people...
ThickAsThieves: i wonder if he'd build the best way to double spend by trying to make the best way to prevent it
fluffypony: but the current system is bad for line-at-Starbucks-and-everyone-wants-to-pay-with-BTC
fluffypony: ThickAsThieves: imho Bitcoin isn't designed to be used for a quick purchase of food and drink...but a system that has convenience + chargebacks can be built on top of Bitcoin quite easily (the way credit cards and PayPal are all essentially built on top of cash)
ThickAsThieves: and other meanie miners
fluffypony: are they piggy-backing off the NSE's recognition in order to avoid needing to get approval anywhere?
fluffypony: I don't actually get the relationship
bounce: so the SEC recognises "National Stock Exchange" (never heard of'em) as a SRO and now they're going to set rules for Atlas ATS. any rules are good rules, amirite or amirite?
fluffypony: HeySteve: then you end up with a "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" problem
fluffypony: Naphex: if you click through from Google the paywall is gone
HeySteve: hey fluffypony and mircea_popescu, been considering the Sybil problem
Apocalyptic: davout, is the guy right of MP TAT ?
fluffypony: I like this: "Mining pools are Guild Navigators. Nodes are Sand Worms. Developers are the Fremen. reddit trols are House Harkonen. Bitcoin, of course, is Spice."
fluffypony: didn't know they still existed
fluffypony: BFL apologist on Reddit: "Many other manufacturers do the same. So my miner was used by BFL for 24 hours before they shipped it to me. Big deal. EDIT: And I've been happy with the BFL hardware I've used. Granted I did have to wait a long time for it - and although this is endemic in this industry, it's true that their waiting times have been perhaps somewhat worse than some of their competitors."
mircea_popescu: yo Naphex. i wanna do the following : http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-04-2014#636082
bounce: IIRC that security book linked earlier starts out with a discussion of how the military had a jolly time playing radar cat'n'mouse
Naphex: they nailed me in a police action with a granny crossing:(
mircea_popescu: ah there you are.
mircea_popescu: (they just spotted the radar and replied with a pulse, making it take its own pulse reply as random scatter and discard the measurement)
fluffypony: got clamped, claimed they never tailgated and always paid parking
fluffypony: once it was working with reasonable accuracy it was quite astonishing to see how many peopel tailgated and then came back days and weeks later
mircea_popescu: actually, i recall a time when romanian police used plain radars on the roads, and you could get electronic invisibility kits