BingoBoingo: thickasthieves> my bet is that BitPay will take over core dev << Why with all the money they ship the foundation?
thickasthieves: they sell individual cigarettes in england?
chetty: well I can get some pretty good wine here for about 25 peso, and peso is about 12.5 to the dollar
assbot: New Infographic Reveals What You Can Purchase With One Dollar Around the World | TheBlaze.com
chetty: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/08/07/new-infographic-reveals-what-you-can-purchase-with-one-dollar-around-the-world/
thickasthieves: bitcoin dev funding = $0 ethereum dev funding = $priceless
rithm: so like these pictures i'm seeing of rumored iphone 6c's
fluffypony: lolthereum
fluffypony: mostly 2010 donations tho, so there's that
fluffypony: rithm: they lost it 18 months ago - https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/wiki/BitCoinPage?version=4
fluffypony: and there's like 340 BTC in it
pankkake: shouldn't the Bitcoin icon be a bubble too?
fluffypony: rithm: they did
rithm: sekrit rumor is tahoe-lafs lost their privkey
fluffypony: so no bubbles there
thickasthieves: the logo
fluffypony: I wonder if tox.im breaks the triangle
thickasthieves: just referring to degree again, all the aspects are degrees
fluffypony: yeah but the triangle refers to a centralised naming authority, so only decentralised in that sense
thickasthieves: referring to the earlier security conversation
fluffypony: but just like Zooko's conjecture was proven wrong, there is the rare piece of software that meets all 3
fluffypony: and we tend to pick the secure & performant stuff, most users pick intuitive & performant, sacrificing security
fluffypony: it's fine - you just jumped the gun a little, lol
fluffypony: thickasthieves: I referred to it in the context of software
thickasthieves: i understand i have the hindsight zookoi didnt, but then why refer to his triangle anymore?
chetty: well I don't 'get' most of the icon stuff .. maybe I am not human
thickasthieves: so the rule was wrong
fluffypony: chetty: "The quality of meaningfulness and memorability to the users of the naming system."
chetty: these days human meaningful is pretty squishy, I mane is bff,lol,txt really meaningful?
fluffypony: thickasthieves: there are things that can arguably hit all 3 corners
BingoBoingo_: !up The20YearIRCloud
pankkake: but as the article notes, namecoin actually achieves that for domain names
fluffypony: but they are centrally controlled
fluffypony: but they are not human-meaningful
thickasthieves: i also dont totally see how you could then go "applying" zooko's triangle to things not domain names
assbot: Zooko's triangle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
chetty: <xmj> then it'll be seven guys on three continents.// sexist!
thickasthieves: fluffypony it seems to make 3 properties that aren't exclusively linked or equally related and paint them in a triangle
xmj: sysadmins around the world covering all timezones :)
xmj: then it'll be seven guys on three continents.
xmj: i need one more "yes" to consider the team complete.
xmj: there we go
thickasthieves: his problem isnt the icons
fluffypony: otherwise I'd drive a Land Rover Defender
thickasthieves: iconography and branding are like the new politics
thickasthieves: it seems itll be at the forefront of idiocy for years to come
thickasthieves: so glad i got out of the design world
fluffypony: can we stop using the stiffy disk icon to save files!
assbot: Can we stop using speech bubbles for messaging? | The Verge
thickasthieves: http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/7/5978011/can-we-stop-using-speech-bubbles-for-messaging-apps lol
pankkake: nice is just another word for faggot
chetty: super aggressive and insulting is the new be nice
BingoBoingo_: That's what I got out of the Rushwallet wall of text
BingoBoingo_: Isn't it weird that people want super detailed and incredibly specific information when we label a bad idea a bad idea, yet they take light teasing super seriously and start writing off people's opinions immediately...
fluffypony: they don't have HSTS on
fluffypony: not only that, but if you're on the same wifi as a user you can just poison their arp cache so you can mitm, sslstrip, and voila
pankkake: when really matters is that they can steal anytime they want by serving malicious javascript selectively
fluffypony: where they got nailed for old nginx + broken SSL et.
xmj: fluffypony: that was the south-african Pty i poked you about. German/South african company
xmj: fluffypony: I have the first customer asking if I can give'm a quote.
assbot: Mutha 'uckers - Flight of the Conchords - YouTube
Vexual: 6 to the dollar punkman
Vexual: wait, you got a dollar for the jukebox?
assbot: DNA/The Private Life of Genghis Khan
pete_dushenski: That was in the morning, then this afternoon was mainly pillaging, though there was a bit of bloodshed around half four. What sort of day have you had?"
pete_dushenski: "How...how's the work going... dear?" she yelped miserably. The soldier shook her. "Put some affection into it!" he roared. She sobbed again. "How...how's the work going... dear?" she yelped miserably again, but this time with a kind of pathetic pout at the end. The mighty Khan sighed. "Oh, not too bad I suppose," he said in a world weary tone. "We swept through Manchuria a bit and spilt quite a lot of blood there.
pete_dushenski: one of the best
pete_dushenski: tell yourself the joke, what?
mircea_popescu: what are the odds that someone cracked a good joke/compliment jsut as the flash went off ?
Vexual: buy the book cunt
mircea_popescu: plenty of crap in there too. docracy ? srsly ?
pete_dushenski: probably second with squatter filling in the gap
Vexual: fluffy, have you travelled outside za into the contient?
pete_dushenski: RebeccaBitcoin: wonderful. next time, we'll work on the rest
pete_dushenski: "There isn’t, nor is there going to be a way, manner, instrument or device through which to protect the passive from the active."
RebeccaBitcoin: However to what you were really asking, yes, i am satisfied with the response to my entropy question
gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=satisfaction | satisfaction. The feeling you get when you obtain one of the following: revenge, orgasm, college degree, a really hot chick's/dude's phone #. (revenge/orgasm) I ...
RebeccaBitcoin: none of these were achieved: revenge, orgasm, college degree, a really hot dude's phone #
pete_dushenski: then we're good to go
pete_dushenski: RebeccaBitcoin: ok so what demonstration do you further require?
decimation: I must retire for the evening but I would be curious about what you think about that, given your proximity to the affairs in that region of the world.
RebeccaBitcoin: ya thats why I wanted to ask you about the mouse entropy thing
pete_dushenski: RebeccaBitcoin: not saying you have to use it, merely that it talks about the entropy of javascript mouse clicks
assbot: Unqualified Reservations: The country that used to exist
RebeccaBitcoin: suggesting I have used it in the past
pete_dushenski: either way, i hope you don't use rushwallet anymore
fluffypony: decimation: they were fighting an incredibly oppressive regime, I don't think you can hold them any more accountable than those that continued to push Apartheid policies
RebeccaBitcoin: I don't want to be late for Ronald in the morning.
pete_dushenski: RebeccaBitcoin: that must be about the threshold to get people here
fluffypony: you don't correct the problem with handouts
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: yes - that's what Malema pushed for, and it's one of the things that eventually got him booted from the ANC, because even they believe it's a stupid idea
mircea_popescu: somehow i don't see this education angle too much. seems it's more a case of, "let's take the land and maybe white people will just pay us to be black"
assbot: Apartheid taught whites to be racist: Malema - Times LIVE
fluffypony: here, this is where Malema is generally considered to have crossed the line - http://www.timeslive.co.za/politics/2011/06/16/apartheid-taught-whites-to-be-racist-malema
decimation: after all, as I recall the ANC would necklace anyone who got "overly aggressive" in cooperating with whitey
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: like there's no problem in saying that a lot of wealth in South Africa still lies in the hands of whites by virtue of being born into privilege and so on, this is a known thing and it is spoken about and there are policies that are trying to correct this by providing an easier route to good education for the less fortunate and so on
RebeccaBitcoin: although not a fan of the philosophical democracy one
fluffypony: now he's started his own political party and is clamouring for nationalisation of the mining industry
mircea_popescu: fluffypony the concept boggles me. "overly" aggresive ? as in what, there's an appropriate level of aggresive ?
pete_dushenski: RebeccaBitcoin: well see the jewfro needs no sticking up for
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: there are some, Julius Malema was the head of the ANC Youth League and often erred on the side of being overly aggressive against whites, but he was also overly aggressive against the ANC and got his ass booted
fluffypony: eg. your grandfather had no education and so lived in poverty, thus your father had no education and lived in poverty, and now you finally have an opportunity to get a reasonable education and can pull yourself out of poverty, but there are decades that must elapse before it's more "balanced"
RebeccaBitcoin: in the end it was mostly insults about bald people and so fourth
fluffypony: decimation: I think the old guard within the ANC might have, but the younger guys are starting to care less and less about race, and just want to fix the lingering effects of decades of oppresion
RebeccaBitcoin: The conversation quickly went downhill
pete_dushenski: they know more than i do anyways, so lucky you!
pete_dushenski: RebeccaBitcoin: i read the logs. have you read http://contravex.com/2014/07/17/proof-that-mycelium-knows-how-to-make-a-better-rng-for-its-entropy-dongle-and-isnt/ ?
fluffypony: they're all like "every week I saw someone murdered right outside my house, until finally I packed up my family and we moved to safe America"
fluffypony: RebeccaBitcoin: South African expats are literally the worst, they're a running joke on the /r/southafrica sub-reddit
decimation: but how do you remove the ANC?
fluffypony: so to remove him all you have to do is have a change of hands within the party
fluffypony: which is relatively easy - the ANC is the dominant political party, the president of the country is the elected leader of said party
RebeccaBitcoin: I've heard from others that it is "continuing to go downhill" but that's based on a limited number of people, mostly from cape town
fluffypony: when Mbeki was providing staid, but ineffectual, leadership there were hands that moved him out the way
mircea_popescu: and in... the ukraine.
decimation: and the Congo too for that matter
mircea_popescu: <fluffypony> decimation: nope - too many overseas companies with skin in the game, they won't let a despot ruin their income ;) <<< this is at best naive.
decimation: I donno, I recall that there were plenty of overseas companies involved in Rhodesia...
fluffypony: decimation: nope - too many overseas companies with skin in the game, they won't let a despot ruin their income ;)
fluffypony: RebeccaBitcoin: safe by most standards - just like any city in the world, there are areas you'd generally avoid unless you were familiar with it
fluffypony: by old-school I mean that a lot of the older ones especially struggle to shed the ingrained views that Apartheid taught them
gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=biltong | biltong. Meat, usually beef, that is salted / spiced and cut into strips and dried in the sun. Popular snack in Southern Africa. I like really fresh, wet biltong.
RebeccaBitcoin: And from another perspective, doesn't seem "safe" ;p
fluffypony: and ugly, except when the Jacaranda trees come into bloom
fluffypony: yeah, the building ownership thing was a fuckup
fluffypony: we used to go up there when I was a kid
decimation: where's the skyscraper that has filled with squatters and shit?
fluffypony: Pretoria is the vanguard of old-school white Afrikaans-hood
fluffypony: decimation: the Rhodesians are mostly in Johannesburg
decimation: is that where all the aliens (I mean rhodesians) live?
RebeccaBitcoin: I went there a few years ago and wtf
mircea_popescu: safer than south africa for ordinary women, i gather :D
mircea_popescu: i mean all the sympathy for them people being surrounded by a bunch of arab derpage, which they consistently own bareback.
mircea_popescu: RebeccaBitcoin: Then I should put both in a fire >>> http://trilema.com/2014/spy-stuff/
decimation: this will only make bitcoin look better of course, as each government reduces its fiat to another altcoin (premined of course)
decimation: as this blog points out, the real reason they are doing this is to bar another escape hatch from the bezzle economy
decimation: http://theden.tv/2014/08/05/a-cashless-society-in-the-world-of-fiat/ Israel wants to outlaw cash... so only outlaws use cash
mircea_popescu: <RebeccaBitcoin> like the dryer << me goes to craigslist with that information
Vexual: what about a gps inside that only sees the sun if the crack it with one of those doorknocker things that jerusalem has
RebeccaBitcoin: are like "hey bro check it, there's money under it"
RebeccaBitcoin: they steal it
RebeccaBitcoin: under the safe is a horrible idea
kakobrekla: (under the safe)
RebeccaBitcoin: like the dryer
RebeccaBitcoin: then put your wads of cash in a hidden place
Vexual: like buy a known safe, and move the intenals?
decimation: presumably the jackbooted thugs arrive before that time
ben_vulpes: or any million of other tricks
Vexual: then you watch that drillbit get real hot
RebeccaBitcoin: find the secret code
asciilifeform: decimation: you can pick these up on 'ebay' to play with. couple 100 usd.
asciilifeform: you gotta love how pcb track to solenoid driver FET is exposed under the rubber keypad
RebeccaBitcoin: how can I change my name to the different colours that you guys use
decimation: not that said box is safe, either
mircea_popescu: <decimation> absolute confidence is impossible until asciilifeform gets his room-sized fpga << but then where would he sleep ?
mircea_popescu: omg the zingers tonight
decimation: what would be the point of an offline web wallet?
RebeccaBitcoin: Assuming I download the source code, it seems legit, I put it on an offline computer.
asciilifeform: but, other fact, question of what was actually served up to you when you browse the site on a particular occasion.
RebeccaBitcoin: certain number of private keys, thus making the possibliity of hashing all of the possibilities possible, then draining any accounts.
RebeccaBitcoin: Before this conversation got out of hand, i was mainly referring to the ability of this site to generate a random wallet. I've read before that mouse entropy is crap. While there are 2892383289 ^298289 possible private keys for Bitcoin, a wallet like this might be much more limited. As such, a system like this might only be capable of generating a
ben_vulpes: there's a saying
ben_vulpes: RebeccaBitcoin: mind you, that amount can change rapidly based on their fiat denomination, and your lazy self might decline to move them until it's too late.
decimation: well, what is certainly true is that you have run the privkey generator on your own machine, using reasonably open software, you have more (not absolute) confidence that your keys are not compromised
RebeccaBitcoin: So in conclusion: I should not store any coins with rush wallet, unless the amount is such that I don't mind losing them.
asciilifeform: brings to mind an ancient recipe for chicken soup (attributed to the gypsies, but accounts vary)
decimation: one can design black boxes with assumptions inside all day; what matters is the ability to master the details implict in all the assumptions being made
RebeccaBitcoin: use your stealy stuff that records the private key
decimation: that's assuming that you designed the parts too, he's gonna charge way more if you need design help
Vexual: then build it offline and run at it
asciilifeform: RebeccaBitcoin: then you learn another useful lesson - what a professional machinist charges.
RebeccaBitcoin: then tada, I'm done
RebeccaBitcoin: then hire someone
fluffypony: seriously - there are people that specialise in this that could probably do it faster than anyone here, and even we can ascertain what the threat model is
FabianB: RebeccaBitcoin: main concern with sites like rushwallet are probably not third-parties but the site owners themselfes, private key is in the url, readable by javascript; even if the private key is not read by current js, they can change it any second, read it, send it to their server
mircea_popescu: you seem to realise somehow halfway in the middle.
fluffypony: there's that too
asciilifeform: RebeccaBitcoin: so attacker could move from mother's basement into a palace, were he to sell the attack to a higher bidder, vs. your 10 merely moves him to a new flat.
decimation: http://www.fedsafes.com/frequently_asked_questions.php "Class 6 safes are used for the storage of documents, maps & drawings. They provide protection against 30 minutes of covert entry & 20 hours of surreptitious entry. Class 5 safes are used for the storage of documents, weapons, drugs, funds, sensitive materials & equipment. Class 5 safes have the same covert & surreptitious entry protection as class 6 safes but they also protect
decimation: I think they distinguish between overt and covert entry
asciilifeform: (one usually is more concerned that seekrit dokument isn't stolen undetected, rather than mere fact of theft)
RebeccaBitcoin: give you the public key
asciilifeform: decimation: nitpick. usg-blessed safes are optimized for tamper-evidence, rather than absolute strength
asciilifeform: RebeccaBitcoin: will it get stolen within 90 days << this is an uncommonly poor tactic (yes, popular in the 'computer insecurity' business, but it sucks still) - would you test, say, a door lock this way?
decimation: you can't run it if you don't have the source
decimation: if you can't find the source of the javascript on your webpage you are in a world of hurt
asciilifeform: exercise for student (or bored person of any other species) - log a typical 'mouse wiggle' session; fit to curves (your choice.)
RebeccaBitcoin: Safe = If I put 10btc in a wallet and post the public key here, will it get stolen within 90 days
decimation: rebeccabitcoin nothing that runs on a von neumann machine connected to the internet using unaudited untrusted firmware is safe
decimation: yes, you put a n00b who failed landing 101 in the cockpit, how did that happen?
asciilifeform: i still can't fathom what people mean when they ask 'is X safe'
fluffypony: there
asciilifeform: in oil prospecting, salvage diving, etc. there is a concept where safety measures that the crew will not follow because they 'seen ridiculous' - are useless
fluffypony: RebeccaBitcoin: again - for ordinary users you simply need something that is completely under your control, and for your purposes Electrum is fine. It is small and lightweight, it doesn't download the full blockchain (about 20mb in downloads is all it needs thus far), and it has a 12 word mnemonic you write down to backup your wallet. It's literally all I need.
asciilifeform: nerd safe = the type of people who print a paper wallet then toss the printer << this subject is worth exploring at length
RebeccaBitcoin: Yes, I did buy some ether
cazalla: RebeccaBitcoin, you bought ether, correct? theft is not a concern if you're giving your bitcoins away
RebeccaBitcoin: "If I compile the php script and then reconcile it with a mysql database, then reconfigure it to your home computer's settings I can find your brain wallet"
mircea_popescu: RebeccaBitcoin you know, before you can think yourself better than everyone else you must put your tits in the tit gallery.
mircea_popescu: decimation not rly. it's not great, but it still takes ethernet disks etc
decimation: sigh, that's not even the issue, the real issue is how random is your linux or windows or mac's random
mircea_popescu: RebeccaBitcoin you know we didn't steal any of the OTHER btc that got stolen, either.
mircea_popescu: (seriously tho, here's a good approach : make your dices out of ice. they will melt, yes, and not be even, yes.
RebeccaBitcoin: if I put 10 bitcoin in a wallet there
mircea_popescu: preferably made out of the bones of your enemies
mircea_popescu: because of many reasons which you will find reading the logs
RebeccaBitcoin: I don't know how to do the thing that makes your name light up
RebeccaBitcoin: my concern is that the mouse movey thing for like 5 seconds isn't all that secure
fluffypony: middle ground is anything where you are entirely, solely, and completely responsible for the safety of your funds
RebeccaBitcoin: to the earlier question, no, I'm not going to write a scathing review
fluffypony: there's a middle ground between paranoid and convenient
RebeccaBitcoin: its not a meaningless distinction. Someone told me yesterday that to make a paper wallet I should use a new laptpo, and a new printer, then I should take both and destroy them. Then I should put both in a fire
RebeccaBitcoin: so nerd safe = the type of people who print a paper wallet then toss the printer over niagara fallls
fluffypony: RebeccaBitcoin: it's not even reasonably safe, given the track record of web wallets
ben_vulpes: for the bruteforcers...
fluffypony: well there you go