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mircea_popescu: but the environment is unconducive.
asciilifeform: '…like a refugee from very rural Pakistan who gets relocated to Oslo, Norway, and still thinks that he could make better food if he were only allowed to light a fire in his living room instead of using that complex electric stove. (This is a real news item. Every now and then, landlords discover indoor fireplaces and occasionally the “newbies” to civilization burn down the building.)' (herr naggum)
mircea_popescu: decimation mind, i'm not arguing the people themselves are broken.
decimation: places like silicon valley were started by rural folk from the midwest, founded fairchild & invented modern transistors and IC's
mircea_popescu: to put it in the terms of the anonimity as urban/rural dispute article : the rural guy can run software without ever needing a garbage collector, because no program ever covers memory.
mircea_popescu: think, the rural noob in town has been the lol of the town's margins anywhere anytime, pick a society. coincidence ?
mircea_popescu: it's because they don't get the incentive or the opportunity to use a large swath of the brain.
asciilifeform always supposed that it was because they cannot have proper 'division of labour'
mircea_popescu: this is the reason you broadly cabn't have intelligent rural people : too contemplative, by the nature of what rural means.
mircea_popescu: fuckwit discovering the ancient sources of greek philosophy by hand on his own, two milenina late.
mircea_popescu: one of the worms in question is a shepherd. he says, 1950ish : "con le stelle se puo parlare".
mircea_popescu: he is incredibly popular with the worms, for the obvious reason : a shot at their idea of a better life.
asciilifeform: they merely have access to seemingly-inexhaustible old war spoils
mircea_popescu: meh i can't find where i said it. anyway, in that film, which is predicated on the notion that an urbanite goes in the rural other world (he's a fraudulent film talent scout, cinecita was a big deal in post war italy).
decimation: I would go with yes, many of them load their own ammo
asciilifeform: decimation: they can machine, weld, assemble own parts from scrap << sure. but can they build so much as a kalash round with own hands, to the required tolerances?
decimation: but they are a minority even in rural areas
mircea_popescu: you absolutely muyst see this film. the italian renaissance is important particularly because they peddle such exceptionaly clear, deep reaching intuitions.
decimation: most of the actual farmers I have met in the us are people - they can machine, weld, assemble own parts from scrap
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: why did the rulers of ussr, china, etc. push so aggressively for mechanized agriculture? to free the plow-pullers from their toil so they can watch opera? << for efficiency.
decimation: it seems to me that the self sufficiency is more threatening to the omni-state
asciilifeform: if we actually get the tech for rural non-simpletonism (keep own pigs -and- bake own 14nm cores) - we'll learn
mircea_popescu: (as to the other point, the orbital spybots are a crapshot. earth based antenna is obv the right approach to the problem)
asciilifeform: are these entirely separable?
mircea_popescu: this is untrue, it only looks similar because they're too far away.
mircea_popescu: the hayseeds imagine the urban despisement of their simpletonism is the same as the utopian hatred of their self sufficiency.
assbot: Space Based Space Surveillance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
asciilifeform: (how many of the latter still work - a different question)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: the folks pushing the 'urban' ('totalitarian', etc, pick favourite term) << these seriously aren't equivalent.
decimation: "if we can't bring everyone up to your level then we will tear you down"
asciilifeform: unattainable goal << their modus operandi is to cripple people in any available way, to inject 'relevancy.' no reason to think this won't continue with better tech.
decimation: re: gov't control: witness the usg attempting to "control" "guns"
decimation: the "space fence", transmitter blasted nearly 1 megawatt skyward to 'ping' off satellites
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: eventual goal, for the state, is an endgame where you can't grow your own potato in secret any more than you can produce your own 14nm cpu. << eventual endgame, for the utopian socialist/nazist state, as for any utopian/figment of imagination, is human relevancy.
decimation: Due to resource constraints caused by sequestration, Air Force Space Command officials have directed the 21st Space Wing to prepare to discontinue operations at the Air Force Space Surveillance System by Oct. 1
assbot: Air Force Space Surveillance System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform im sure it's in the sub ed in colleges everywhere.
asciilifeform: decimation: or recall the chinese sub that test-fired ballistic rockets off the california coast recently.
decimation: said Lt. Col. Tom Crosson, a Pentagon spokesman. ?We respect the freedom of all nations, as reflected in international law, to operate military vessels beyond the territorial seas of other nations.?
mircea_popescu: a war is won by a) making fat targets that b) the enemy tries to take out but c) fails.
decimation: asciilifeform: usg opts to allow the russian navy to exist in international waters: http://freebeacon.com/national-security/pentagon-russian-spy-ship-tug-operating-near-u-s/
asciilifeform: for the 1000 ships tactic, the vessels must be properly autonomous
asciilifeform: fix RuBisCO, from its current ~2% efficiency to something like 50+ - and now you needn't the massive resupply points that make fat targets.
mircea_popescu: handwaved as "well if there's too many subs to track then that says all we wanted to know anyway rite ?"
mircea_popescu: there's nothing to do submerged anyway. the only real reason to move is abvout the same as getting new ips, ie, avoid the enemy.
asciilifeform: you can charge inductively under the sea, but parasitic currents are a drag
decimation: note that if you want go at any reasonable speed you must be on the surface, as ascii said
mircea_popescu: decimation i tell you, if the tesla experiment works out we're going to see subs.
asciilifeform: there's two basic types of 'permission' - one where you can, without permission, but might catch some lead; and one where you actually can't ('promise vs. protocol')
mircea_popescu: "yes you may gather together to overthrow the state, just as long as you get an approval form stamped by said state"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: a historical annoyance, for all forms of state, is that folks can, in general, grow food without asking it permission first. <<< this brings to mind the ridiculous "permit to assemble" device.
mircea_popescu: people'd have been sticking cunt drawings on her back for the rest of her life.
nubbins`: fwiw she used to grind her vulva on the corners of desks when helping students
mircea_popescu: meanwhile at lulzranch : carnivores having well developed teeth is in no way a predictor of their preference in eating meat over say photosynthesis.
asciilifeform: this applies just as easily to the nominally 'proper' education (average peon has very little use for, e.g. arithmetic)
nubbins`: these were put on the classroom bulletin board for the next few weeks
mircea_popescu: something being asserted by a state sponsored "ed" program of any kind is more a predictor of the something being wrong than right.
nubbins`: thestringpuller: easy peasy
mircea_popescu: yeah, made by the same people, with the same political aggenda, and with the same utter ignorance and disrespect for observable reality.
nubbins`: how about the marijuana supports terr.. oh, wait
mircea_popescu: i couldn't begin to give less of a shit about what sex "ed" programs say there, wherever that is.
kuzetsa: mircea_popescu: I've seen quite a lot, but even if that wasn't the case, the sex ed programs here don't promote fallacious negative images about people's sexuality because of genital shape
mircea_popescu: either way.
nubbins`: thestringpuller: lovely
kuzetsa: mircea_popescu: the size of the folds of ones labia is not directly proportional to sexual activity, but only differs with natural variation from person to person... your logic is invalid for calling that slutty... or is this just your headcanon for that particular pony? in which case, I agree, she's awful
nubbins`: mp the floating one w/ the rainbow hair is probably the most represented in cosplay etc
mircea_popescu: only actual slut in the bunch.
mircea_popescu: so who's the deep purple one in the middle ?
mircea_popescu: the cunts aren't even identical holy hell.
kuzetsa: ^ yes, they would
asciilifeform: people would fuck their own severed heads if they could.
asciilifeform: when the last u.s. boat hits the bottom, the scrapyards, or the chinese auction block - we'll find out whether the 'seastead' folks are serious.
mircea_popescu: geothermal*
mircea_popescu: so composed out of thermal electro plant, battery recharge stations and a fleet of subs...
mircea_popescu: and im not sure who can afford to piss off a nation of submarineers, but it wouldn't be the us.
mircea_popescu: if they can do it with the teslas it has impact.
mircea_popescu: let there be electric recharge stations on the ocean floor.
mircea_popescu: tell you what : a current car spends 90% of time in the garage. fu that.
asciilifeform: the same kind of tech problem as the absence of pocket laser pistol.
asciilifeform: a non-nuke sub spends 90+% of time on the surface.
mircea_popescu: well, lettuce see. the submarine is submerged. it does not care about "weather" in either fluid sense. with the new fleshlights and tumblr pr0nz... i defy you to find a bunch of 20somethings whose current life would be differen if they were subbed.
asciilifeform: eed to love the sea. Spend a little time with Moitessier, Slocum, and the like; read this fine collection, and possibly this (pretty much all of Jonathan Raban's books are good); etc, etc. Yes, I'm aware that seasteading is not yachting. I'm aware that no one intends to take their floating poles around Cape Horn. But you are still at sea, and a subject of Neptune you remain.'
asciilifeform: 'Defined in these terms, when you move onto a floating pole somewhere in the ocean, the first effect on your freedom is a massive decline. You have sworn fealty to King Neptune. Neptune accepts your service, as he has accepted so many before you. His court is glorious, his riches are infinite, his territory is vast. But Neptune is a stern and capricious lord. To live at sea, you need not just love liberty. You n
asciilifeform: we could be there already, but somehow it appears that most people don't like the sea very much.
mircea_popescu: leaving the landspace to be inhabited by the proles, toiling in the mines and sub factories under the carcinogenic sun
asciilifeform: the familiar 'water planet' scenario, yes.
mircea_popescu: making orlof a sort of low tech early pioneer in the right direction.
mircea_popescu: the sub having replaced the car that replaced the knight's horse
mircea_popescu: they're actually pretty fully featured.
gribble: Kaiten - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiten>; Human torpedo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_torpedo>; Kaiten-class | Nihon Kaigun - Imperial Japanese Navy Page: <http://combinedfleet.com/ships/kaiten>
asciilifeform: and, who doesn't love the japanese 'Kaiten.'
mircea_popescu: but these are not so midget-y.
asciilifeform: midget subs are 1930s state of the art.
asciilifeform: and the 'two airplanes theorem' (what can two planes do, that one, regardless of how spiffy, cannot? be in two places.)
mircea_popescu: more importantly (and somewhat secretly) : they're one man subs.
mircea_popescu: apparently much easier to make it silent, whereas the nuke ones can not
mircea_popescu: speaking of which : the diesel sub is making a major comeback
asciilifeform: well, everyone with the necessary apparatus.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: to fully visualize the logical conclusion of that gedankenexperiment, picture if one could subsist entirely on the output of a 'desktop garden' under a fluorescent lamp.
mircea_popescu: im kinda waiting for the twinks to get bored of being irrelevant, get upset and threaten to sue everyone else for using their invention.
asciilifeform: DERP << still waiting for some muppet to start a company selling bottled piss or the like, and labeled 'bitcoin'
gribble: The operation succeeded.
gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=OG | Famouse Tatooists Mr. Cartoon is a straight-up muthafuck'in OG! 2. O G. O G means original gangsta those tru gangstas from way back in the day that jacked ya ...
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller what's og ?
mircea_popescu: do we have any reason to suspect bitcoin will bring about by and large more prosperous societies in the sense of people affording better friends ?
assbot: Reddit, Twitch, and Imgur have created a research partnership called DERP | The Verge
asciilifeform doesn't quite grasp why hatchet jobs are necessary against electromobiles - they do a fine job sucking on their own
diana_coman: mircea_popescu got the skill level eulora prize too, here is proof and the address at the end, thank you http://www.dianacoman.com/2014/08/20/making-my-eulorian-cake-and-eating-it/
asciilifeform asks his batteries if they blog.
asciilifeform: 'Lithium ion batteries blog up if they get wet or bumped.'
ThickAsThieves: i guess they might be quoting a person
ThickAsThieves: http://www.valuewalk.com/2014/08/tesla-motors-inc-accused-of-organized-crime/ lol, either these guys are running out of ways to make the price move... or Musk is an OG
TheNewDeal: so what are you saying about buying 10k? you only have a few chances to do it before the price skyrockets up or what?
TheNewDeal: mircea_popescu: http://stats.bitcoin-assets.com/ << wouldja look at that, weekly active user count over avg last week for the first time in like half a year. <<< usagi has been firing up all his old names?
mircea_popescu: or mebbe some knew but the group as a whole got desperate enough.
mircea_popescu: but i guess i was giving the bright financial minds on the other side of the tug rope undue credit for being absolutely intelligent so as to know.
mircea_popescu: the problem being that going the other way is a) unduly expensive and b) shockingly ineffectual.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla: so you can only miss the chance to sell 10k 3 times or something? << that was going the other way.
mircea_popescu: http://stats.bitcoin-assets.com/ << wouldja look at that, weekly active user count over avg last week for the first time in like half a year.
TheNewDeal: What happened to the NASDAQ? Answer: it's being propped up on stilts
TheNewDeal: there we go
nubbins`: TheNewDeal: FB has more pictures of custom shirts etc
atcbot: [CoinMiner Hashrate]: 1.65 TH/s [PityThePool Hashrate]: 1446.16 GH/s [iSpace Pool Hashrate]: 1.51 TH/s
thestringpuller: just tryin to understand the fee schedule
nubbins`: TheNewDeal: call a local screenprint shop, ask for one shirt, see what they say
nubbins`: TheNewDeal, facebook.com/pinkeye, pinkeyeprints.com, etc
thestringpuller: okay so the first shirt it always 65?
nubbins`: thestringpuller, mp has not yet hit on my wife
thestringpuller: Oh. Is the "hit on my wife" fee waived for mircea_popescu ?
nubbins`: but, now that i think of it, there's also a hefty surcharge if you've ever hit my wife
nubbins`: thestringpuller: hit *on* my wife.
thestringpuller: he's on the 30 minute timer
gribble: Registration successful. You are now authenticated for user tylander with key D40DAE000726DA10
gribble: Something, Something, Something, Dark Side - Wikipedia, the free ...: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Something,_Something,_Something,_Dark_Side>; Family guy Emperor something something..... - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHiUitciuJ8>; "Family Guy" Something, Something, Something, Dark Side (TV ...: <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1329665/>
gribble: (eregister <nick> <keyid>) -- Register your GPG identity, associating GPG key <keyid> with <nick>. <keyid> is a 16 digit key id, with or without the '0x' prefix. We look on servers listed in 'plugins.GPG.keyservers' config. You will be given a link to a page which contains a one time password encrypted with your key. Decrypt, and use the 'everify' command with it. Your passphrase (1 more message)
gribble: Nick 'thestringpuller', with hostmask 'thestringpuller!~leflor@99-39-97-12.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net', is identified as user 'thestringpuller', with GPG key id 0FF2943DA179E169, key fingerprint 6ACE36E786F39A4ADC4506DE0FF2943DA179E169, and bitcoin address None
thestringpuller: nubbins`: whether you've ever hit my wife << ??? this has happened?!?!?
gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask thestringpuller!~leflor@99-39-97-12.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net. Trust relationship from user thestringpuller to user thestringpuller: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 10 via 10 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=thestringpuller&dest=thestringpuller | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=thestringpuller | Rated since: Mon Oct 15 18:46:37 (1 more message)
thestringpuller: ;;gettrust thestringpuller
thestringpuller: "I wish I had a bitcoin for every one of these bitcoins is dead articles I've read over the past year and a half."
thestringpuller: mike_c novusordo : the comments in that article is priceless
mike_c: ^ don't tell whoever added 37 PH/s over the last two weeks. they'll be pissed.
nubbins`: type of shirt, total quantity, number of colors, whether i think you'll be a repeat customer, whether you've ever hit on my wife, whether the artwork is ready, etc
thestringpuller: okay then what is it per shirt after that?
nubbins`: thestringpuller it's around $60-65 before i'll even pick up a squeegee
jurov: what's the situation there?
jurov: btw i thought the DERP is not finished yet as F.DERP is not listed and only two derivatives
mike_c: i think the sale is almost over
mircea_popescu: dude i leave for a day and where is the two digit bitcoin!
assbot: The Gyroscopes in Your Phone Could Let Apps Eavesdrop on Conversations | Threat Level | WIRED
gribble: The operation succeeded.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
TomServo: ;;later tell ben_vulpes The OTC link on your page still points to benkay's OTC profile.
nubbins`: i find myself questioning the wisdom of buying them :0
nubbins`: i see charlie shrem is selling a lot of casascius coins on the forums these days
Duffer1: it was quite painful, and i refused pain meds until the ct scan results came back and the dr said "your appendix is all messed up, we're transfering you to a different hospital, ambulance is en route, take pain meds now"
Vexual: can i kick you in the nuts?
Vexual: ive only read the abstract
RagnarDanneskjol: afraid I cant be too interactive tonight - I'm kinda in the middle of a few things and terribly behind schedule
Vexual: well i tought i might give an example of some concepts i garner from that collectionfor your further thought
RagnarDanneskjol: its relatively comprehensible cf. to a lot of academic financial dissertations I come across. I learn more about bitcoin from these sources than i would any "analyst" in the btc space
RagnarDanneskjol: economy. This dissertation analyses the effect of market imperfections at different time horizons.""
RagnarDanneskjol: at different time horizons." - I only got through the first essay. " Financial assets prices are not always in perfect equi- librium and deviate from their fundamental values. The dramatic rise and fall of the stock market raises concern about the rationality of sudden changes in stock valu- ations. The mispricing of assets contributes to financial crises, which can damage the overall
RagnarDanneskjol: "Financial assets prices are not always in perfect equi- librium and deviate from their fundamental values. The dramatic rise and fall of the stock market raises concern about the rationality of sudden changes in stock valu- ations. The mispricing of assets contributes to financial crises, which can damage the overall economy. This dissertation analyses the effect of market imperfections
assbot: Essays in quantitative analysis of the effects of market imperfections on asset returns
Vexual: and that is a whole other level
Vexual: i think you are right, but many of the biggest ethical questions arise where dna meets patent law
xmj: it's an example of market forces at work without redistribution; of course they don't like that.
xmj: Vexual: Monsanto strikes the hypocritical white progressives as bad due to their feeding people.
Vexual: just a little bit shitter than their mixing service
Vexual: theyve made high yeilding maize and shit
Vexual: its prolly hard to usefully gm an o where the o has been selectively bred for so many generations, unless you include a new selection criteria
xmj: whatever the plant you make opium from
Vexual: perhaps they will change their modus operendi and make a version that grows in africa easily without pesticides
xmj: Soon we'll have GMO cannabis on the cheap, all the hipsters and Nassim Taleb will bitch about it
assbot: Is Monsanto The New Cannabis Supplier In Town? AnonHQ
Vexual: etymlogical root of "the pennies drop"
Vexual: the one in persia
assbot: Linux Kernel Git Repositories Add 2-Factor Authentication | Linux.com
usagi: I warned him about getting in with the wrong crowd. Guess he didn't know who his friends were
usagi: I guess terra is finally dead then.
usagi: I didn't know the terrahash failure was so spectacular
assbot: Did Margin Trading Crash the Price of Bitcoin?
Vexual: and...if.. they used the btc right, theres money left to drill
Vexual: not sure if cause of efect, but they also renewed their exploration permits
Vexual: kenilworth did their emi
TheNewDeal: the thing about the 10k bet is
usagi: But it would have had to have a much larger payout, this might be the sweet spot for the $10k bet
TheNewDeal: there's a 5k bet as well
usagi: might toss something on the $10k bet
usagi: TheNewDeal; it contains subjective terms open to post-interpretation
usagi: The berkshire bet does not inspire confidence :p
TheNewDeal: site hasn't change much, merely the bets
usagi: Actually I'll go take a look at the site now
TheNewDeal: I'm in the business of scouting out good bets and reselling them
usagi: There are some issues with the site tho, which discourage me from betting
usagi: There isn't much available right now. I've been chatting with you recently. thought I'd ask
TheNewDeal: yes, it's called Don't Feed the Scammers
usagi: Do you run a business in the community, TND?
usagi: But a lot of the contracts had NDA's at the customer's request so I don't usually talk about particulars
usagi: TheNewDeal yesterday you said I told you I was insuring people (kakobrekla) against glbse defaults. I didn't say that, kako's contract was for pirate
decimation: the mind reels. one hope is that as the 14-nm process seems to dribble production, the world will have time to step back and actually do something useful with the silicon
asciilifeform: like the doomed office plankton jumping from a burning skyscraper, they don't much care where they land.
asciilifeform: what we're seeing is not love of the typewriter, but a desperate flight from wintel.
asciilifeform: given the small quantities of the machines bought, it seems likely that each will inhabit a separate room. precisely the best circumstances for such a bug.
asciilifeform: essential attribute of such being that it cannot be determined to be what it is other than by being actually used in a broadcasted transaction.
asciilifeform like probably everyone else, contemplated the mathematical curio of a 'panic key' that irreversibly destroys coin (in a hypothetical 'btc 2.0' apparatus, naturally)
asciilifeform: the only possible pill against this situation is - to not end up in it.
asciilifeform: even the dumbest bureaucrat presumably understands this.
asciilifeform: weakest link in btc apparatus is still - the owner. esp. if he's hanging upside-down, waiting for the next whack with a thick telephone book.
asciilifeform: only objective re: the wagen - don't get in.
BingoBoingo: With the slightest bit of personal awareness of your own addresses though, plausible deniability becomes feasible.
asciilifeform: blind 'taint' analysis is one thing, a list of 1mil names and deposit addrs is quite another.
asciilifeform is still waiting for the first leak from the u.s. dept. of wherever-the-stoolie-reports-from-btc-exchanges go.
asciilifeform: if all you want to know is 'did the sr coins move' etc.
TheNewDeal: they also claimed to have followed a few large addresses that attempted to bunch and split their coins (not necessarily mix)
TheNewDeal: they draw a map of transactions in it, and you can see a bunch of silk road addresses off on the side
TheNewDeal: there was an article posted here a while back (it's in the lawgs). It was 2 dudes, one of them for sure had an indian last name
BingoBoingo: TheNewDeal: Because of simply the wide variety of shit that gets done with coins.
TheNewDeal: I'm naive here - not sure how blockchain.info runs their taint
BingoBoingo: It seems like a horribly ineffective way to track ownership of coins or their movement.
TheNewDeal: please do expalin bb. I've read the trilema article before
TheNewDeal: how does their taint analysis work? maybe that's something kind of like what I'm looking for. Some 2nd and 3rd level addresses that have bumped into contact with a particular address
decimation: duh - "The bottom line is that we have absolutely no idea if pay for Federal employees is consistent with private sector pay for a given type of job in a given location.The data is not there and it may not serve the interests of politicians to actually find out what the truth is.f"
assbot: Replacing The General Schedule: Some Facts : FedSmith.com
decimation: re: nsa cryptography: http://aviationweek.com/awin/faulty-aehf-slow-trajectory-orbit "It also experienced cost overruns and is late because of problems with unreliable parts that needed changing out and delays developing cryptographic keys from the National Security Agency. "
decimation: part of the problem with usg employee wages is that congress has held them fixed for several years now I think
decimation: asciilifeform: I think it's true that whatever you define "living wage" in the bezzle-world, the number has been steadying going up over the years
asciilifeform: and the question of what precisely a 'living wage' might be, in bezzleworld, is a rather tricky one.
asciilifeform: but if you compare folks carrying on in exactly the same profession, the pay is similar
asciilifeform isn't sure where the notion of 'usg pays starvation wages' comes from.
asciilifeform: of the roughly two dozen staff in my lab, there were, i think, at most two u.s. born folks at any given time.
asciilifeform: other little 'secret' - with the exception of 'secret' agencies, a contractor need not be a u.s. citizen.
asciilifeform: on account of the mundane fact that - they are cheaper.
decimation: if they work for less than a 'living wage', then they are essentially donating their life to usg
asciilifeform: decimation: generally, the containers they ship in.
asciilifeform is only familiar with the particular bureaucracy where he once worked
decimation: well, it probably depends on the 'traditional business culture' of the particular branch of government the contractor 'agrees' with
asciilifeform: (rather than paid 'piecework', like the customary meaning of 'contractor' in, e.g., the construction trades)
asciilifeform: most of the contractors are hired for a fixed salary, agreed on before-hand, as if they were normal employees
decimation: yeah I would buy that. traditionally 'contractors' lard their billable rates to compensate for this burden
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