punkman: if there's a lot of volume, best to keep local copy of OTC database
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk ok. if gribble can grant deedBot unlimited requests thats the solution. << that's not the solution yet. it wil be the solution once we process a lot of volume. atm the soluition is to queue.
MolokoDesk: it hasn't appeared on the main blockchain yet.
MolokoDesk: ok. if gribble can grant deedBot unlimited requests thats the solution.
MolokoDesk: so I already have to pace and sequence the request to gribble.
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk can always jus get an exception ; always a great idea to only ask for exceptions when you need them
MolokoDesk: for example, the information about which KEYID or NICK you're asking about disappears if it's not found in WoT. Gribble just says not found there.
MolokoDesk: yeah, I wasn't going to suggest any mods to gribble even if nanotube would do them because everyone else's stuff would stop working.
mircea_popescu: in general the 60 minutes of a block would currently take a maximum of 720 deeds at that rate. unless we're actually processing 500...
MolokoDesk: an incoming URL queue is the most reasonable.
mircea_popescu: i can appeal it but i'd rather not if it's not absolutely necessary.
MolokoDesk: there's no appeal against that. I'll have to pace requests by any of various methods.
MolokoDesk: gribble bans anyone for 5 minutes if they make more than 12 requests in a 60 second interval. that probably happened while deedBot wasn't voice.
MolokoDesk: I'm retaining the microsecond timestamps of gribble requests and their fulfillment so... I can implement a timeout reset if gribble dies.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: prayer mill ? << shit boys, there you go revealing supersecret eulora later game content ;/
MolokoDesk: I'll look to see what's in the queue
MolokoDesk: it makes sure I'm really computing the hash address properly. If I verify that myself, and I'm making a mistake, I'll just be making the same mistake in the verifier.
punkman: mircea_popescu: it drinks from the faucet :P
punkman: but I'll write a verifier for the deeds
mircea_popescu: punkman oh the logs. nm me :)
mircea_popescu: chetty yeah seems you missed the header.
mircea_popescu: punkman so you two been working together on this or what ?
MolokoDesk: there's no -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED DOCUMENT---- header on that.
mircea_popescu: chetty need the raw
mircea_popescu: time to put that idea to work. the largest last will&testament you can have is 10k words. figure it out.
mircea_popescu: i have been derping for long enough about how reform in the modern state shoudl consist of a fixed number of characters for all laws, and if you want a new one must erase an old one.
assbot: Eulora may have a release when the goalposts stop moving! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNAT - Pastebin.com
assbot: Eulora may have a release when the goalposts stop moving! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNAT - Pastebin.com
mircea_popescu: actually, not just fine. it's a requirement post facto. MolokoDesk discard anything in the url past the 64kb.
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk : can all the data published on webpage be bundled say daily into a tar and linked somewhere for dld ?
MolokoDesk: it's parsing out the token in non-raw pastebin references.
MolokoDesk: people will have to use raw= for pastebin then.
mircea_popescu: dignork ppl on mpex ocasionally have this issue. the other approach is to mark a key as default.
dignork: so if anybody has to deal with multiple subkeys, proper syntax is "gpg -u 8334BB7B5BDFA126! --clearsign file" , notice the key>!< notation, seems to be not so documented
MolokoDesk: it requires peeling off the ascii armor and replacing gaps in the delimiters. it's kind of tedious.
MolokoDesk: I had considered validating all the signatures.
MolokoDesk: if a bunch of people have cryposigned it. I'm counting the signatures.
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk the web interface looks splendid.
MolokoDesk: are there cases where someone who should have access to deeds has a negative rating relative to assbot and assbotdirects?
mircea_popescu: the case where assbot trusts someone the broader b-a does not is quite the failure mode anyway.
kakobrekla: then*
mircea_popescu: so as to identify : http://blockchain.info/tx/26591d8fc00356374e63320f1c6b5539947300378f84ad8063ef92740823fd95 << consider that. the tx is identified, whether it ends up in this block or that.
MolokoDesk: maybe it's doing that. let me look at the code briefly.
gribble: (gpg info [--key|--address] <nick>) -- Returns the registration details of registered user <nick>. If '--key' option is given, interpret <nick> as a GPG key ID.
gribble: (gpg info [--key|--address] <nick>) -- Returns the registration details of registered user <nick>. If '--key' option is given, interpret <nick> as a GPG key ID.
mircea_popescu: you get a tx id once you make the payment, that's invariant, use it.
dignork: mircea_popescu: this key is chained, not the same key that gribble knows i suppose
MolokoDesk: the blockchain tracker I'm using only flags confirmation when the block is on the main chain.
gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask dignork!~dignork@gateway/tor-sasl/dignork. Trust relationship from user assbot to user dignork: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 4 via 4 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=dignork | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=dignork | Rated since: Fri Oct 18 12:20:18 2013
MolokoDesk: I noticed that inclusion in an orphan block would mess this up... there are often several blocks with the same blockID, at least using some tools.
MolokoDesk: ok. we need a definition of what the absolute location of a block is.
mircea_popescu: that's why i wanted the txid. txids are fixed per tx
mircea_popescu: and if there's a block reorg ?
MolokoDesk: and when the blockheight confirm comes in it's changed to 34234-1BITCOINADDRESS.txt and published to a web-accessible directory
MolokoDesk: when it's time to spend which is usuallly the next 60 seconds it changes the name to BUNDLE_PENDING...
MolokoDesk: no the file is saved named BUNDLE_UNSPENT-1BITCOINADDRESS.txt
MolokoDesk: most/all blockchain tools on the web use block height
MolokoDesk: the filename uses block height since blockID seems arbitary and duplicated.
chetty: mircea_popescu, not sure about their land stuff, some little I saw did look a bit Gaults Gulchy but guy does make some decent observations about Argentina in general
MolokoDesk: there are some temporary commands to make it join the channel, but I'll set #bitcoin-assets as the primary channel and that will never be needed.
MolokoDesk: that will probably go away .dump it switches the channel to the primary notification channel.
kakobrekla: <mircea_popescu> o wow wunderwaffe mockery from ww2 ? definitely older than i thought < yes, germans DO have the best scripts in porn.
MolokoDesk: there are some diagnostics.
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk ok, and what are the commands ?
MolokoDesk: it has funds, ragnar put in the latest tranche, I put in the first tranche. a few bucks.
dignork: mircea_popescu: some fido period reference, i didn't have a computer then
MolokoDesk: what's the wonder-wafer meme about?
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk got the command list anywhere ? does it have funds ?
MolokoDesk: checking to see if deedBot meets the "it has to work" criterion.
mircea_popescu: dignork cool then!
mircea_popescu: chetty are these the shills for that desert project selling $500k houses on land that costs $500k per square mile ?
assbot: Lessons from the Argentine | Casey Research
mircea_popescu: but don't mind me, by all means, please continue, advertise to the social media crowd, that's where the power is lmao.
mircea_popescu: dignork: they do have something commercial, but I did not look too close <<< then people wonder why there's a bubble. why hello sir, when people can't be bothered with even looking at the "products" their name is so bad, i suspek perhaps it may be the case there's going to be problems achieving cashflow. just a hunch.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: also lol, mircea_popescu getting his boxes off dhcp just today...? < no, actually, "you had one job" woman forgot to pay netbill, ended up plugging their wifi into one of my spares so they can has interwebs they don't deserve.
mircea_popescu: once this support seeking habit forms, overwhelming it is nigh on impossible, and in any case overwhelming it would require the one thing that its existence prevents : a working mind.
mircea_popescu: the problem being, of course, that once this fork has been passed there's no way back. there isn't a phase transition from manchild seeking support from reality to adult. there's just a choice, at a narrow band of time during preadolescence somewhere.
mircea_popescu: this is why beatings are so important for education : people will do the right thing just as soon as all apparent alternatives have been exhausted. if children are isolated and beaten into submission, you wil have poetry and scientific research.
mircea_popescu: myriadgetsmehard: ben you are acting like the dinosaurs i get enough shit from man :) << the age old solution tried first by the infant confronted with the unimpressed adults ? make an infant support group!
RagnarsBitch: punkman - if you wanna see deed confirmation, need to keep bot voiced for next hour. Awaiting direction on who's to register/ hold the keys for it
MolokoDesk: ok. it's stopped raining here and I have some chores to run out there.
MolokoDesk: it creeps me out that there's no incoming queue.
MolokoDesk: and didn't get an acknowledgement from deedBot about the first one ... 3WT0JW5
MolokoDesk: notice that punkman did 3WT0JW5 then did almost immediately 7ZHFZCPE
MolokoDesk: or someone writes a bot to spew a few deeds they have laying around.
MolokoDesk: It may have just been an issue. what if two people just happen to want to .deed something at the same instant?
MolokoDesk: if someone sets the expiration time on a pastebin to 1 minute that might not be so swell. Nobody should do that though.
MolokoDesk: the obvious solution is to put the pastebin tokens into a queue and handle them one at a time regardless of how fast they come in.
MolokoDesk: I think if it's in the process of waiting for gribble and you dump another incoming deed bundle, the unbundler is asynchronous and can stomp on the chain of gribble dialogs and force a new one to start.
RagnarsBitch: I think you were. Still what's the issue?
MolokoDesk: I think the sha1 test case I was using wasn't in WoT at the time is why I've never noticed one before.
MolokoDesk: I probably need to add the queue we were discussing, ragnar.
MolokoDesk: I wonder if you created a collision with two deeds that close together.
cazalla: panthers v bulldogs big game
MolokoDesk: just wanted to check something: that you can't set the main channel to a nick.
MolokoDesk: the cuckoo clock announcement at the top of the hour... I'll turn that off now. and reload the bot. if nobody's waiting for a bundle to track to the blockchain.
MolokoDesk: this is verbose deedBot. nothing but a terse summary of what it decided about the contract in your pastebin bundle at the beginning, and an announcement of where it publishes the hourly bundles will show eventually/soon/next
punkman: best to minimize the number of lines deedbot prints
MolokoDesk: I use php a lot though, as a sketchpad language for rapid prototyping. it lets one do a lot without thinking about the details.
MolokoDesk: http://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ you may find this amusing. I hope this is the one I'm thinking of. it gets increasingly gnarly in describing these computer-science diasters intrinsic to php.
MolokoDesk: another uh delusion, I guess, is that SQL is supposed to make it easier to program. Every few years there's some software putsch that claims "you'll never have to program again, our language is so user-friendly and intuitive" I think SQL was originally promoted that way. It was going to be some 4th generation language.
MolokoDesk: there's relative awful and absolute awful. Absolute awful would be something that does a join using a loop and a bunch of separate lookups. You'll see people who use declarative languages and aren't aware of the judo available in SQL. They often have no idea what the computer is actually doing, just what the language constructs accomplish in terms of final output.
MolokoDesk: there are all kinds of oblique proverbs about commercial software development like: "good, fast and cheap, choose any two"
punkman: not awful is the exception
bounce: still plenty of awful open source code Out There
bounce: some people even get paid too much to write good code, so they write shitty code instead. too expensive to do it right.
MolokoDesk: heh.there are conflicts of interest having to do with actually having to write and maintain a program. Many developers have no long term relationship with the results of their work, so they're concerned with optmizing return on their time with a customer they're probably only going to work with once.
MolokoDesk: there are a lot of high level skills involved that wouldn't be reflected in the language reference card.
MolokoDesk: oh yeah, designing the database to reflect how it's going to be used and the semantics of the data and the relations between the tables etc.
bounce: plenty people using "sql" turn out to've little inklink of the theory backing the thing and so aren't very good at using it what it's for--expressing relations between data. then you end up with a glorified key/value store, which is a waste of all that complexity. such people think mysql is a good idea.
MolokoDesk: knowing when to use various joins and such to reduce the computational load of searches or relations between tables.
bounce: it is if you include the recursion extensions. how about relational algebra?
MolokoDesk: and a buncha other stuff.
MolokoDesk: anyway, I don't wanna spam a bunch of newb sqlite3 agony here. Thanks for the suggestion regarding a new tool.
MolokoDesk: laff. nevermind. I was in the wrong directory, so it was, in fact, creating the database file.
MolokoDesk: it's like it thinks it's opening a new database with that name and zeros the file.
punkman: and it destroyed the file? that sounds improbable
MolokoDesk: oh. that's because sqlite destroyed the file when I opened it with sqlite.
MolokoDesk: (well. so far none of the command line commands work in sqlite on a linux box with RatingSystem.db listed as the "main" database. won't show the tables etc.
punkman: (for some other project that is)
RagnarDanneskjol: MolokoDesk - tracking bundle in other chan
MolokoDesk: I think you see the problem
MolokoDesk: assuming you have sudo access on the server it's going to run on...
punkman: you are confusing sqlite with other beasts perhaps
RagnarDanneskjol: might be worth finding out exactly how nano uses the db to inform gribbl
MolokoDesk: yeah, writing all the SQLishness to query that database for a few people seems overkill.
MolokoDesk: heh. the database is smaller than most image files.
MolokoDesk: if there's confidence that the bitcoin-otc website /WoT site is not insecure I can just use my old code to get trust metrics over the web. It's the same database.
MolokoDesk: if there's an http interface to gribble's database that would work too. some SQL-ish RPC-ish thing.
MolokoDesk: the webserver only has to open sockets and fork() a process occasionally.
MolokoDesk: so right now I'm looking up the trust metric for each batch of incoming contracts. it's not that much overhead.
MolokoDesk: the other scenario is someone urgently needs to register contracts to they're up-rated to +2 to access the bot, but it won't recognize their new rating because it "already has" that info.
MolokoDesk: ok. one scenario I was talking about a few minutes ago was someone vandalizes the bot and has their rating lowered below access threshold, but they're still trusted by deedBot and deedBot keeps getting vandalized.
MolokoDesk: apparently that's not "trusted" here. not sure why. I know gribble is the software agent that maintains the bitcoin-otc WoT data structure.
MolokoDesk: I was initially scraping bitcoin-otc's web of trust search tools to get the trust metrics.
MolokoDesk: stuff currently outside the envelope of "understandabilty" or "logical resolution".
MolokoDesk: heh. I was reading about Alain Badiou last few days. He counterposes ontologies with "events" that break the ontology. His stuff is peculiar. Philosophers seem to be looking for/looking at things like unfalsifiable hypotheses, and areas where logic breaks down, the nature of paradoxes and at various limiting cases of systematized thought.
MolokoDesk: Cyc was/is supposed to be somewhat like that. I think it doesn't handle what linguists call scripts or scenarios, but Lenat and OpenCYC are aware of the issues.
RagnarDanneskjol: hey jurov, wanna see the deedbot
jurov: interesting that zsh does nothing like bash with env vars, just passes them around
jurov: everyone took the environment variables at face value for 15 years... that's beyone assinging the blame
bounce: maybe the writer thinks there's great value into twisting logic like this, but he surely does not have much appreciation for the cost.
bounce: "nobody told them the input they passed wouldn't be taken as data but as code, yet it's their fault anyhow"
jurov: or rather, piling of chairs
jurov is looking forward to the fateful day when someone suceeds in feeding of all humanitites to a computer and creating an ontology
bounce: but that doesn't change the basic fact that if you actually do say exactly what you mean you still typically have a better chance of getting the point across
bounce: sure it's a lot of reading and sure there are a lot of people saying confused things, perhaps even deliberately confusing issues.
xmj: happens all the time.
moriarty: the same it is in philosophy or law
moriarty: there is no simple equation that governs most scenarios
moriarty: that's the arts
moriarty: when i was involved in finance, my amount of reading went up hundred-fold, sure, there was a lot of overlap, but they cover different situations, and it's a bit like chess, you read all the possible moves and what you can do from there
bounce: see? you're using terms of art and when called upon them go like "lol what?"
bounce: so what's the exponent?
moriarty: but the classic distinction with the liberal arts is that they tend to require an exponential effort in reading material
moriarty: the problem with autistic people or my understanding of the crowd you're referring to, is that they are used to neat and concise models that exist inscience
moriarty: the whole of philosophy is a continuous conversation dating back to Aristotle
xmj: at least they're FUCKING PRECISE about things.
xmj: see, and this is why i like talking to people on the autistic spectrum when it comes to philosophy.
moriarty: you lose the meaning actually
moriarty: and simplifying statements would not make it easier to understand them
moriarty: when you transcend one discipline with a concept, and apply it in another discipline, that's creativity in a nutshell
moriarty: xmj, and generally the optimal solutions lie at the intersections, which ironically if you think about it is the textbook definition of creativity
moriarty: xmj, but in short, philosophies are nothing more than gedanken experiments designed to hypothesize what would happen in a given closed loop system, and then society tests them
moriarty: the double, triple, quadruple entendres
moriarty: it's the imprecision that captivates, makes you giggle
moriarty: when you make a joke, you don't want to explain the entire innuendo and corresponding nuances associated to be precise about your joke
xmj: be precise from the beginning
moriarty: but hey if you need me to espouse further i'm always happy to oblige
xmj: lies in the intersection of WHAT?
moriarty: xmj, let's try a little credo, i see ideologies as part of a continuum, many of the questions i am interested in lies in the intersection, i tend to think in terms of probability distributions rather than dichotomous epistemic categories
moriarty: xmj, and sure you can, it's not too dissimilar from the film Divergent :)
moriarty: xmj, playing devil's advocate has never been funner :) it exercises your otherwise bored mind and allows you to travel from one ideology to another and have fun with them
moriarty: xmj, because the mind is a playground
moriarty: ask any TA-er what they understand
moriarty: in one, you do lots of application, in the other you do applications too, but you understand the fundamentals driving your model
xmj: including the anarchists
moriarty: took the words right out of my mouth
moriarty: bounce, and as such is impossible to modify the tenets of
moriarty: bounce, religion is basically at its most simplest an assortment of teachings on how to live life optimally within the constructs of society at that point in time
bounce: equate them and you'd be equating brazilian slums to downtown london or something. it's a little confused.
bounce: in comparison and contrast, religion typically starts with teaching you about a building constructed aeons ago, likely by confused shepherds high on whatever it was they were smoking, and requires you to live by its tenets. quite possibly at the peril of your life, if not at least at the peril of your eternal soul.
moriarty: for every ludicrous example you have there are more counterexamples :)
moriarty: BingoBoingo, how wealthy did Newton die off in the end and the power he amassed politically and economically?
BingoBoingo: How funny are fundamentals, when you consider the anatomic fundament?
bounce: consider, if you will, philosophy to ideas as math is to numbers; you can start with axioms and build on top of them. you can admire the building, you can refine it, you can start over and build something else. nothing requires to believe in your own bullshit, though if you'd like, you can at your own peril. probably going to get you some scorn from other philosophers if you do.
BingoBoingo: moriarty: Well what happen to poor Cantor in the end after meditating on Cardinality so long?
moriarty: it's the classical Humean induction dilemma
moriarty: the power of ##econometrics and mathematics leads you to such mind-clarifying conclusions :) never underestimate the power of knowledge to distill the world with such ease
BingoBoingo: And yet the Moon rocket worked.
moriarty: think axiom of choice, or Zorn's lemma being equivalent over the ZF set theory as such attempts and the findings prove as much
moriarty: the second part of Godel's exposition states that under proper conditions, a strong formal system cannot prove its consistency
moriarty: and these are a result from a non-isomorphic model as proven by Lowenheim-Skolem in first order logic
moriarty: the first incompleteness theorem states that under the proper conditions, there are statements that are true but not provable
moriarty: bounce, are you familiar with Godel's incompleteness theorem?
bounce: then philosophy is dogma to you, innit
bounce: building on axioms goes like "IFF these are true THEN it follows that...", bit of a difference from "these things ARE TRUE regardless of what reality says BECAUSE GOD TOLD ME SO"
BingoBoingo: There was a great gulf between Euclid and Pythagorus
moriarty: bounce, then you cannot build any system of belief without it
bounce: nothing requires you to believe the axioms.
moriarty: BingoBoingo, what do you think all the axioms require in a philosophical model if not faith?
moriarty: if your constitution is fucked, then you're better off emigrating
moriarty: my viewpoint is people's elections of leadership is missing the point
moriarty: philosophy underpins constitutions, and if you set up your nation proper, then you will get a thriving economic powerhouse
moriarty: bounce, that's why some countries are superior to others
moriarty: bounce, ultimately the superior philosophy prevails
xmj: bounce: protestantism lead to betterment mostly via increasing the literacy rate
moriarty: xmj, the model of self-reliance is a good model to have, it dispels away with all the illnesses and perversions that comes with a more fatalistic view of society, think conspiracy theorists, suicide bombers, basically people who perceive their own destinies are unchangeable and thus resort to such desperate measures or justification of reality in order to make life more livable
bounce: curious how some religions cause people to better themselves and others to mostly kill everybody else
fluffypony: Jusr not paying much attention to the convo
moriarty: bounce, the perception that comes with what constitutes a dumb girl and an intellectual girl is more deceptive than first sight
moriarty: bounce, exactly :) well, i am alluding to the typical profiling of dumb vs non-dumb girls
moriarty: with regards to paving the way for making usury and profit-taking more acceptable socially
moriarty: xmj, well if calvinism is attributable as a predecessor to capitalism then i don't see what's so bad about it
bounce: think your definition of "not dumb" is a bit too narrow. there's such a thing as kinds of intelligence (we know this inasmuch as we know what intelligence is anyway, which we don't, not really), and what you're rooting for is "social intelligence", something girls tend to be better with than boys
moriarty: sure, on outward appearance she appears dumb because she likes all the conventional things that a popular girl likes :) hair straighteners, mixers, proms, but i value such a girl who can master social situations and get people to do what she wants implicitly
moriarty: and a girl who is confident in her intelligence need not always be so nerdy about it, i.e. she can act like a normal human being without telling me about the intricacies of quantum field theory and the fundamental tradeoffs between continuous/discretisation of spacetime continuum binded together by the graviton or loop quantum gravity