ben_vulpes: ottomans survived regular decimations in constantinople, according to "The Sultans"
mircea_popescu: then again...
mircea_popescu: chetty this is roughly like the "can't get aids from mosquitoes/bugs
BingoBoingo: chetty: No one knows where the line is, may vary in different situations
penguirker: New blog post: http://qntra.net/2014/10/boost-vc-and-zapchain-team-up-to-create-the-bitcoin-course/
mircea_popescu: there's good biological reason for this
asciilifeform: chetty: when exactly do you cross the line << from a sane (e.g. soviet) epidemiologist's point of view - when you set foot in a 'hot zone' - you're infectious until proven innocent.
asciilifeform: and to desaparecer certain inconveniences in the chaos.
chetty: but seriously when exactly do you cross the line to being infections? the exact second you show a fever? the first time you cough? of just maybe its actually 5 minutes before ...
mircea_popescu: kenya is not even on the list ?
ben_vulpes: you better lose yourself in the pandemic \ you own it, you better never let it go \ you only get one shot do not miss your chance to blow
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is some merit to this. apparently it's not infectious presymptomatically.
asciilifeform: official excuse is, get this, 'you can't get infected on the plane, we check for fever getting off'
asciilifeform: and the flights carry on.
mircea_popescu: if the mortality is 20% from the disease and another 10% from the resulting stampede that's about 100mn deaths in the us by 2016.
mircea_popescu: from the looks of it they've got maybe even odds to lose control and end up with an epidemic
BingoBoingo: I have a gut feeling that the big reason more US'ians don't follow through with their going to Canada threats is that Canada is too close to what they are leaving. That and Canada doesn't really want them.
mircea_popescu: The20YearIRCloud depends how bad it gets.
BingoBoingo: I imagine within the decade Mexico will be more concerned about illegals coming from the US than the other way.
The20YearIRCloud: texas has more health problems from illegals coming over the boarder than it does with ebola (all healthwise)
BingoBoingo: That story about the silenced handgun is ridiculous. Even modern suppressors leave gunshots well over 100 dB range. Nice to know that our spymasters even insist on lying to themselves." Forgets .22lr is a thing
assbot: A Private Tour of the CIA's Incredible Museum | History | Smithsonian
mircea_popescu: wasn't it the dog that went to moon ?
BingoBoingo: mike_c: I thought we never really hit the moon yet, just low earth orbit.
asciilifeform: an actual word to describe the sheer ugliness of tshirts and chinos as worn by the modern western plebs >> neal stephenson's 'slines'
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2012/o-hai-i-was-justing-doing-a-penetration-test-of-your-site/ more in the same style.
mircea_popescu: wow shit there's an actual word to describe the sheer ugliness of tshirts and chinos as worn by the modern western plebs ?!
Azelphur: mircea_popescu: no, and if I was I think I'd rather shoot myself than work for EA :P
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun Let's design an ATM card that is a Bitcoin wallet. Who is up to the task with me. Ideas? Thoughts? Purpose: so that dumb users can just "get a card" rather than have to learn how to set up a complicated node on a p2p network. They already use ATM cards. So, this is a form factor thing. << The people who hop on -dev so srs
mircea_popescu: and for the kids following at home : http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/7800000/SAM-4-samantha-fox-7878744-363-500.jpg << this is samantha fox. for a year or two she was probably the most jacked off to woman in teh world.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: One of them. I dunno if he is a ranger, but he lurks a lot of places and interupts
bounce: this is a weird way to follow an argument. is there a log of -dev somewhere?
mircea_popescu: is that the guy that was arguing with assbot ?
bounce recalls someone complaining about kids wasting massive amounts of bandwidth on youtube music videos just for the audio; the browser window with the player is kept in the background
assbot: Lesley the Pony Has an A+ Day! on Vimeo
bounce doesn't see that happen in a bit. just like the peecee business is in a bit of a slump, because, well, there's only so much cpu power reasonably wastable on eyecandy.
bounce: could be, but it boomed for a goodly bit, because it could. netflix took over torrent in biggest traffic (oh woe is the mafiaa and their pr-war), and so on.
mircea_popescu: but in fact gavin executing usg agenda. those twerps have few ideas and they keep redressing them everywhere.
mircea_popescu: it's in fact exactly recycled golfclub pattern talk, which is exactly how the independent observer knows this is not merely gavin derping,
mircea_popescu: "bandwidth will double each year for 20 years because it has in a very rare circumstance the past 10" is not unlike the way people try to sell "global warming"
bounce: so it's maybe a bit early to decide there won't be bandwidth because there won't be drive. may be. maybe not. it's not a given either way.
bounce: oh I haven't really kept up with that. maybe I should read up. but the point in the very general sense is that we don't know yet how we're going to waste tomorrow's bandwidth. you know, like youtube is quite a thing these days, but only can exist because availability of >>dialup bandwidths
bounce: uncompressed hi-res n-dim medical imaging is a good, morally upstanding way to stuff the pipe. even if it's a bit of a niche now.
mircea_popescu: there substantially isn't something as interesting to people.
mircea_popescu: "full image of the human person" is also a limit, in fact. quite biological.
mircea_popescu: bounce yes, but see, just like light in glass is a limit of the universe, that's relevant,
bounce: well, there's the thing. the phone system didn't really improve substantially until someone found a reason to repurpose that last mile for DSL. even if that DSL now mostly carries crap better carried some other way, or not at all.
mircea_popescu: in 1990 i could see it, we wanted to see samantha fox naked in color, rather than black/white ascii art.
mircea_popescu: by now the limit on porn is that nobody can be fucking bothered to make the sluts look good in 8k hd.
mircea_popescu: which is a major fucking point that got neglected so far. there's this seinfeld where george tries to sell computers
bounce: in 170 years? doesn't sound unreasonable, provided we keep up the pace.
thickasthieves: jurov, ok, maybe all mp meant by being the financial center is that HE is the center, and since we orbit around him, we aren't careening into the abyss
mircea_popescu: anyway, if you were to propose over the next 170 years it increases 10 million fold again, i would take 50-50 odds against.
mircea_popescu: bounce here's some saner math : first telegraphed message was in 1844. the bw today, 170 years later, is 10mn times wider. (ie, taking that 10mbps).
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: most of the struggle revolves around a particular set of hardware, won't be of much interest to other people
bounce: worked well enough there. I'd agree that banking on a similar thing happening in last mile connectivity is maybe a little optimistic.
bounce: perhaps interesting to see how people got started in the gene sequencing biz, and over a couple decades have seen sequencing speeds and capacity shoot up not quite to the moon, but close.
BingoBoingo: jurov: You run the only financial brokerage of note
asciilifeform: but there is no replacement for it
asciilifeform: (gentoo out of the box, as found now, is atrocious. i'm having face rubbed in this as we speak.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the distro that makes you cool by using it.
jurov: it is people IN THIS CHAN that are both the leading edge and the sum total of both the global financial infrastructure and its migration to bitcoin << this meand you and who else then?
mircea_popescu: it can;t be heh, isn't gentoo the offical hipster distro atm ?
jurov: anyway. can anyone explain to me how am i a part of "a sum total of the global financial infrastructure"?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: A bit of drama in the convo. Haven't finished it myself.
mircea_popescu: telling some derp derping about "what we should do" there's no we and nobody elected him is not politics, but the contrary thereof.
mircea_popescu: im not aware it was about the politics, other than to reject unwarranted politics ploys.
bounce: what, it's not about the politics for once?
assbot: ClubOrlov: Book Excerpt: The wrong math
mircea_popescu: bounce no, the point was that there's no good reason to believe doubling each year for 20 years is something to engineer against.
bounce: copper has come a long way since then too. but anyway, if the argument was that there's some cap on the achievable max bandwidth... probably. whether we'll hit it in our lifetime and/or the end of the current civilisation? no idea.
mircea_popescu: cazalla so are you back in the seat now ?
cazalla: mircea_popescu: o heya cazalla. how was the lass ? <<< no time for that, to sydney and back again in 2 days
jurov: these dudes who tear fibers dont know about smart fires :)
BingoBoingo: <jurov> they tend to burn, too << Not if you make a smarter fire.
jurov: they tend to burn, too
mircea_popescu: bounce fibre possibly has a lot of headroom yet. but so did cable, originally. point is there's not going to be a qualitative jump like going from copper to glass.
bounce: could perhaps imagine the typical post-apocalyptic american human wilderness with the addition of heavily guarded microwave towers for the happy few
BingoBoingo: jurov> unless copper is on par with silver, no one is interested in tiny phone wires << In my present metro area, when leaves my rural oasis for the city one finds all outdoor components of HVAC systems living in cages
bounce: currently on 80/8 cable. and fibre has quite a bit of headroom yet. though for for low-latency things they're back to LoS-microwave links.
asciilifeform: jurov: tell that to american scavengers. they've even pulled up fiber! purely through a combo of retardation and 'shoot first, questions second'
mircea_popescu: jurov sure they are.
asciilifeform: in 20 years the average us citizen is on dialup << copper phone net torn down. and where not torn down, scavengers are working. so no, not fiber, it'll be either nothing or dog-slow radio a la africa.
mircea_popescu: nubbins`: Apocalyptic i'm trying to figure out why everyone has their dicks in a knot about it. nobody seems to know. ^ above should give you a good start.
thestringpuller: then we can go back to one.
mircea_popescu: too much taking over of the "global financial blabla"
mircea_popescu: and incidentally exactly, but EXACTLY how idiots just like gavin end up with mortgages they can't pay.
mircea_popescu: imagining you'll keep doubling bra cup into your 30s is a little out there
mircea_popescu: in short : just because your tits grew up 100% a week for half a year starting on your eleventh birthday doesn't mean jack. for one thing, the first cubic centimetre happened then.
mircea_popescu: moreover, the way net neutrality etc is going, not to mention the realpolitics of you know, actual wars, financial or otherwise, it wouldn't be surprising if in 20 years the average us citizen is on dialup
mircea_popescu: sure, for as long as you're rubbing sticks together, things can increase massively. once you start running up against the limits of the universe however, that's that.
BingoBoingo: Well the thing is we already have both things. Bitcoin for global finance and Altcoin for embarassing Gavincoin
mircea_popescu: there's nothing after optic fiber.
mircea_popescu: nubbins`: this is not unusual for a first-world country, is it? << here's the problem : you went from cable to optic fibre to do that.
mircea_popescu: they got the "global financial blabla" quite well pegged, they figure, why won't we just eat some crums ?
BingoBoingo: Maybe one month you only need a shoebox of Benjamins. Maybe another month you need a pallet of Woodrow Wilsons
mircea_popescu: govt wants it the other way around, so why won't we be nice people and just make bitcoin a sort of replacement for sms payments already.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo but see, the question is : govt doesn't want to be a wholly owned subsidiary of bitcoin, and used as such, with its scrip a sort of ltc.
mircea_popescu: we're not here to be friends. we're here to fuck over the entire system, permanently.
mircea_popescu: this specifically requires avoiding the tarpit of trying to be yet another macdonals, helping along with welfare distribution.
mircea_popescu: and i don't care specifically because we want bitcoin to take over the financial, and with it the political power in the world. all of it.
mircea_popescu: and no, im not gonna think about the spooks. i couldn't give less of a shit that some single mom's ugly children are starving because her no fee half bitcent bitbet bet didn't get into any of sixty consecutive blocks.
assbot: Logged on 07-10-2014 18:01:23; mircea_popescu: making it n-0, retroactively. THEY HAVE YET TO ACTUALLY SCORE ONCE!
mircea_popescu: which is exactly the point of all this fucking derpage.
mircea_popescu: so one block will fit 100x as many tx, and each solved block will yield 50x less in subsidies. that's a 5k drop over 20 years. it's high enough to kill the price, and with it mining, and with all that bring bitcoin back within the financial ability of the us.
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller: so average bandwidth in US (where Gavin is based) is 10Mbit. An incearse of .5 per year is like what 15 next then 22.5 after that etc etc <<< in 20 years the per-block subsidy will be just about 40 bitcents. at that same time, gavin's block size will be 110 mb.
mircea_popescu: let him do his whatever the hell it is and be happy, nobody cares.
mircea_popescu: but the derpage about taking bitcoin with him is ridoinculous.
mircea_popescu: go1111111: Gavin has a different idea of where he wants Bitcoin to go<< no, actually, gavin has finally figured that there's not really space in bitcoin for him, and he wants to move on. which is fine.
mircea_popescu: unl;ess they wish to not be pestered about uptading it
mircea_popescu: nubbins` there's a downloads count on github, for what that's worth.
mircea_popescu: because the troop has proven, multiple times, that they're not to be trusted. plenty of those are simple incompetence, but at least three or so can be well argued as malice.
mircea_popescu: point is, nobody in his right mind would just go with the "up to date".
mircea_popescu: another facet is the havok inflation wreaks upon capital allocation and generally marketplace decisions.
ben_vulpes: not implying they're not shit, but curious to know your opinion.
mircea_popescu: go1111111 yes, you say "is used" meaning "is used to denote". but the two different things it's used to denote aren't unrelated. they're just facets of the same phenomeno.
go1111111: inflation is 'bad' if the thing that is inflating is something you're holding as a long term store of value. higher supply --> lower price per unit. "inflation" is used two ways: increasing the supply of the currency, and increasing price levels. i'm referring to the former
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform generally, when people reference gold in relation to bitcoin it's simply a token to represent how they do not wish to engage into a discussion but would rather derp about some conveniently pre-prepared strawmen.
asciilifeform: when folks say 'we want it like gold' - do they mean 'confiscatable', 'bulky', and 'largely traded as sham paper' ?
mircea_popescu: go1111111 you think they're clear, because you understand very little of it.
mircea_popescu: level 3 : it is people IN THIS CHAN that are both the leading edge and the sum total of both the global financial infrastructure and its migration to bitcoin
go1111111: the bad consequences of not having a limited currency base are clear (inflation). a larger block size won't lead to currency inflation, but blockchain inflation and some higher bandwidth requirements. That seems to have very different consequences.
mircea_popescu: level 1 : "many people" is not an argument, because a bunch of redditards are not actually different people. the headcount of all reddit is like, 5 people. that's not many and barely people.
mircea_popescu: go1111111: thestringpuller: many people see the potential for Bitcoin to replace much of the global financial infrastructure. i know people in this channel prefer Bitcoin to be a gold-replacement, but if it was able to do a lot more, it'd be pretty awesome << this is wrong on each and every level.
mircea_popescu: for all i care, everyone's welcome to try any theory they wish and then starve on it. what's however not acceptable, not now, not ever, is fraud. passing scamcoins for actualcoins and trying to pretend like shitpie is "just as good as pie".
Apocalyptic: mircea, may well be... that's why the ultimate solution is: don't let them get their hands on it
BingoBoingo: The correct solution to limited blocksize is occasionally buying trashcans full of your local scrip as necessary
mircea_popescu: Apocalyptic yeah but the problem with this crapolade is that it constantly needs to leech off hard currency to survive.
mircea_popescu: gavin wants to have a cryptousd he's welcome to make yet another shitcoin.
Apocalyptic: <mircea_popescu> yet somehow the bitcoin crowd is supposed to have forgotten why it got into bitcoin in the first place // that's a recurring thought I have these days
mircea_popescu: yet somehow the bitcoin crowd is supposed to have forgotten why it got into bitcoin in the first place, and apply the inflationary economy it's ran off from here
Apocalyptic: the blocksize limit is essentially tied to what bitcoin is, even if you can't see it
mircea_popescu: go1111111 the arguments for a limited b lock size are the same as the arguments for a limited currency base.
Apocalyptic: go1111111, dude it's not just about the fees
mircea_popescu: einstein never got the damned formula out because luce irigaray didn't see why he'd privilege the speed of light over other speeds that are so much more important to us. and so on.
mike_c: yes, this is not kindergarten. unfortunately there still is no good bitcoin kindergarten.
go1111111: if there are good arguments for high fees i'm curious to be linked to them or hear them. possibly my preference for low fees is as dumb as you're claiming, but it'd be interesting to know why you think that
mircea_popescu: mike_c no but really, "i don't see". let's all go to the hospital and start derping, "i don't see why i'd have to take my clothes off"
assbot: Logged on 15-09-2014 14:33:56; nubbins`: his btcjam profile has two "recommendations" from friends. the second one commences thus:
mike_c: <+mircea_popescu> i don';t giuve a shit what usefullness you see or don't see. << another contender for the b-a tagline :)
mircea_popescu: you're better served by going through the logs as relevant to your interest.
go1111111: mircea_popescu: I don't see the usefulness if high fees, except as a means to secure the network. but fees will be a small portion of the reward to miners for a while. low fees enable transactions to occur that would otherwise be too costly, eliminating deadweight loss
mircea_popescu: go1111111: BingoBoingo: yes, bandwidth is the thing to be genuinely concerned about << you don't get to separate your better's concerns into genuine and less genuine, fuckface.
nubbins`: what're the big pools running anyway, i wonder
mircea_popescu: after the "let's fork bitcoin for fun" and the "let's put heardbleed in your software" disasters, you'd have to be insane to run anything coming from vessenes' merry band of scammers.
mircea_popescu: go1111111: the problem is that having small blocksizes and high fees doesn't actually make anything nicer for anyone. <<< and who told you this ?
nubbins`: A new Inital maximum block size such that a full node may be run by "somebody with a current, reasonably fast computer and Internet connection, running an up-to-date version of Bitcoin Core and willing to dedicate half their CPU power and bandwidth to Bitcoin."
mircea_popescu: yeah, im not making it that early. wouldnt mind asking the guy a few q's but whatevs.
mircea_popescu: <go1111111> thestringpuller: Gavin surely knows that it adds some burden on full nodes, but the point is that it's a trivial amount. engineering is about tradeoffs and the thing being traded off against increasing the block size is miniscule << increasing the block size is NOT a gain. it's a loss.
mircea_popescu: <pete_dushenski> he's just playing it up for the crowd. << that, pretty much. like any pundit/hired "tech support", he's got his talking points and he's going to talk the points.
Naphex: the supernode fillters all that out, and sends clean to slaves
thestringpuller: Naphex: interesting. do local nodes store the blockchain or access it via network?
Naphex: the localnodes, hardly ever pop 0.03 on avg
Naphex: i use this as a "supernode" to p2p connect to the network, and use local nodes to scale
nubbins`: thestringpuller: tyvm, first thought-out argument i've read yet
thestringpuller: USGavin's proposal consists of significantly increasing the burden on the full nodes, while doing nothing to address the actual problem threatening Bitcoin. This, of course, is not the direction a responsible head of a FOSS project steers things. It is however the exact direction a puppet of Microsoft tries to steer a standards discussion."
thestringpuller: "Seeing how the earlier discussion actually neglected to mention a perfectly valid alternative avenue to evaluate the idiocy of this proposal, consider that the main (really, in practical terms the only) vulnerability of Bitcoin at the moment is that while miners are rewarded for mining, relayers are not rewarded for relaying. This is a sore oversight on the part of Satoshi, privately admitted at that, and unfort
Apocalyptic: nubbins`, you're perverting the argument
nubbins`: yeah, let's put the brakes on everything so you can help "contribute"
nubbins`: so what's the minimum?
nubbins`: there needs to be a minimum, yes? an abacus is infeasible?
go1111111: thestringpuller: not if that special hardware is always below a certain cost threshold
thestringpuller: yes but if the block size increases too rapidly eventually only certain hardware can run it.
nubbins`: and eventually you'll need a raspberry pi 2.0 with a 30 usd external storage medium that has 2x the capacity
nubbins`: yes, for full nodes. do you have any idea how many people in the world don't have a "spare computer"?
nubbins`: already this is the case
thestringpuller: Then only certain individuals can run full nodes?
thestringpuller: Then we need computers build specifically for full nodes?
go1111111: the problem is that having small blocksizes and high fees doesn't actually make anything nicer for anyone. that's what nubbins and I have been arguing. the extra "niceness" you want is a trivial savings in abundant computer resources
thestringpuller: again if you want nice things you need to pay for them...
go1111111: smaller blocksizes tend to increase the fee required to get in a block. lower fees seem preferable. the only case i can see where you wouldn't want smaller fees is when network security was based heavily on fees, but that won't be the case for a while
thestringpuller: go1111111: well. consider you are mining now at negative profit margins because diff is too high. You can upgrade and go further into the hole and hope to god you make your money back. Or you can cut your losses and move on with your life.
Apocalyptic: nubbins`, the blocksize limit also incudes a lot of economic consequences regarding transactions and fees
go1111111: so you're saying it's more like "I'm going to stop mining now because maybe in 10 years mining will be unprofitable, depending on the trajectory of computer resource costs"
Apocalyptic: for one it removes the upper linear bound on the storage space needed to store the whole chain
nubbins`: "my cpu, disk space, bandwidth are still orders of magnitude more than what this requires... better pull the plug over ideological reasons"
nubbins`: Apocalyptic i'm trying to figure out why everyone has their dicks in a knot about it. nobody seems to know.
thestringpuller: i'm almost certain if you increase the blocksize to great too soon, full nodes will drop off...
Apocalyptic: nubbins`, you're actually in favour of the increase ?
nubbins`: so there goes that argument
chetty: internet is pretty darn good most places, only place I ever had much of an issue the deserts of Egypt
nubbins`: imagine, the horror
go1111111: most of the burden now is that it's very cumbersome, not that the resources required are expensive
thestringpuller: very possibly, but that still doesn't solve the issue of forcing more burden on the full nodes.
go1111111: thestringpuller: Bitcoin still could be extremely decentralized if full nodes were limited to 1st world countries
nubbins`: thestringpuller: you want to stop it?
thestringpuller: So you want to centralize all the full nodes to first world countries?
nubbins`: you're just throwing random numbers together in a sentence
thestringpuller: so average bandwidth in US (where Gavin is based) is 10Mbit. An incearse of .5 per year is like what 15 next then 22.5 after that etc etc
go1111111: thestringpuller: you're asking "why up 50% a year?". my reply directly addressed that. Gavin has a different idea of where he wants Bitcoin to go, and it requires lots of transaction processing capability
Apocalyptic: but if it was able to do a lot more, it'd be pretty awesome // what is it with people always wanting the same thing to "do a lot more" ?
nubbins`: BingoBoingo: okay, so when people say "bandwidth is the thing to be concerned about", do they have numbers in mind or is just a wank?
go1111111: thestringpuller: many people see the potential for Bitcoin to replace much of the global financial infrastructure. i know people in this channel prefer Bitcoin to be a gold-replacement, but if it was able to do a lot more, it'd be pretty awesome
BingoBoingo: <thestringpuller> if you want a tx to get in the block add a fucking fee and pay for the nice thing you've been given << This
thestringpuller: if you want a tx to get in the block add a fucking fee and pay for the nice thing you've been given
go1111111: BingoBoingo: yes, bandwidth is the thing to be genuinely concerned about
thestringpuller: the higher bandwidth necessary to run a full node over time T will force the centralization of nodes
thestringpuller: it's the decentralization of full nodes
nubbins`: what specifically is the issue
thestringpuller: mining isn't the issue
go1111111: regarding CPU power, the ASICS that are doing the hashing are not the same resource that would add a transaction. a general CPU would be doing that, which would otherwise be sitting idle
go1111111: thestringpuller: Gavin surely knows that it adds some burden on full nodes, but the point is that it's a trivial amount. engineering is about tradeoffs and the thing being traded off against increasing the block size is miniscule
nubbins`: !down thestringpuller
gribble: Nick 'thestringpuller', with hostmask 'thestringpuller!~leflor@99-39-97-12.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net', is not identified.
thestringpuller: nubbins`: not yet I gotta go to the local office today once I feel like not being lazy and get some real clothes on.
pete_dushenski: very much like a magician who distracts the crowd with a joke or a pretty lady while the trap door opens.
pete_dushenski: he's just playing it up for the crowd.
pete_dushenski: thestringpuller: o gavin knows very well.
mthreat: mircea_popescu: in case you want to confront him about bitcoin posts on the forum (that seemed to be filtered at one point)
mthreat: mircea_popescu: coffee chat today - Igor (the baexpat forum owner) will be there. http://baexpats.org/topic/31648-coffee-chat-wed-8-oct-2014-4-7pm-barrio-norte/
nubbins`: thestringpuller any satisfaction with usps?
thestringpuller: How does the chief scientist not realize increasing block size increases burden on full nodes?
thestringpuller: If you are just trolling, then kudos, you got my attention for about three minutes."
thestringpuller: You do know that no matter how large the block, only the 80-byte block header is hashed?
nubbins`: minted by -- no kidding -- the country of Niue
nubbins`: speaking of all 4 sets, the mint sent me an email
mircea_popescu: "if i could be bothered to stand up i'd bugger you" ?
mircea_popescu: wait you can have them concurrent ?
mircea_popescu: anyone spending enough time daydreaming develops them