mats: the bug fights are pretty cool.
jurov: lol the hate
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> i get paid to work on interesting problems. and, like other people who do this, it happens by cultivating relationships with people who have these problems. << this "work must be fun" trope again
mike_c: ah, i meant the bug fights.
adlai: (not there yet, but looks like it's on its way)
cazalla: gabriel_laddel: PeterL: its just a request, he has 0 obligation to follow up on it. <<< ya, let the man share his ideas, no harm
BingoBoingo: Luke-Jr: You may not have an interest in farm ailments, but if you farm they will be interested in you.
Luke-Jr: hrm, that sounds scary. especially infection via eating the meat
asciilifeform: emacs aficionados! turns out, openbsd has a separate 'emacs21' port, of that version, sans all of the retardation and shitgnomery
Luke-Jr: eg, so they eat grass
gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask Luke-Jr!~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr. Trust relationship from user assbot to user Luke-Jr: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 5 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=Luke-Jr | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=Luke-Jr | Rated since: Sat Feb 5 12:37:04 2011
gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask Luke-Jr!~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr. Trust relationship from user gabriel_laddel to user Luke-Jr: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=gabriel_laddel&dest=Luke-Jr | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=Luke-Jr | Rated since: Sat Feb 5 12:37:04 2011
Luke-Jr: BingoBoingo: problem is, I don't have any crops planted for them to eat yet, and the fence isn't really setup ideally yet
asciilifeform: i don't own any serious quantity of any kind of thing one might wake up in the morning and compulsively check the 'worth' of.
asciilifeform: PeterL: i do in theory, but it doesn't work yet
Luke-Jr: point is, they're travelling 2.5 hrs regardless :P
BingoBoingo: Luke-Jr: Well sheep are more accustomed to being compelled between locations than other livestock, but they are still more fragile than the larger animals.
BingoBoingo: Get them.
Luke-Jr: so I have less than 24 hours to decide whether to purchase an ewe & ram with the ability to avoid a 5 hour drive… any opinions? :p
gabriel_laddel: "nipping at your heels" was not the expression I wanted. something closer to "you can speak random alphanumeric strings at people and they'll nod and smile at you. speak in an angry tone and they'll frown and shake their heads, but this and 'liking' things is the extent of their expressive and intellectual capabilities"
BingoBoingo: decimation: I mean you don't feed cattle fresh salads, you feed them silage from the corn that was too useful for them to eat.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: can't find the naggum article I referenced earlier, but anyways yes - the process of choosing a hero in the USSA isn't by any stretch of imagination random.
BingoBoingo: It's funny how even in pop culture Chicago police are acceptably more corrupt than in other jurisdictions. Maybe that impression though is for the other flocks. http://www.hulu.com/watch/703678
assbot: Logged on 30-09-2014 20:25:59; asciilifeform: mats_cd03: depends on hypothetical destination. but, overall, just picture a figure large enough to 'become taleb' and live as 'gentleman scholar' in total disconnect from economic reality around you.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: iirc, that was mircea_popescu describing the virtues of working on inventions in a yurt in patagonia. but the thought experiment presumed infinite (or at least, adequate) funding.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: right, however I seem to recall some #b-a persons attempting to convince you to leave the us for an actual jungle.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I'm not one of those attempting to get you to emigrate and make the cardano in a jungle or w/e.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: i'm of the opinion that i, in particular, will die here in usa (and not of old age, either)
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: kk. I had somehow gotten the impression that you were of both opinions a & b, which I find odd.
asciilifeform: networking with folks in other territories is, i think, a very good use of time.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: so you're of the opinions that a) it isn't worth my time to network with people in other territories and b) usg is going to collapse?
asciilifeform: i have no desire to be 19 again without any of the upsides.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: and interesting problems only ever happen in the us of a?
asciilifeform: i get paid to work on interesting problems. and, like other people who do this, it happens by cultivating relationships with people who have these problems.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: well, yes. I simply do not program anything other than Common Lisp. but because I can do this at $mylocation doesn't mean that there doesn't exist a soul in e.g., Russia who would be willing to pay me to do it.
asciilifeform: but more about the fact that once you've lived as a man, do not ever again wish to live as a dog.
asciilifeform: it isn't about 'hands dirty', either
kakobrekla: well its how the world works! even shit can hide from entropy.
PeterL: gabriel_laddel: maybe the metaphor has been stretched too far?
gabriel_laddel: decimation: lol if the US suddenly disappeared Israel would destroy its enemies << this is sorta the impression that I currently have.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: exactly why it should be part of the "promised land" missive.
decimation: lol if the US suddenly disappeared Israel would destroy its enemies
asciilifeform: for instance, the unemployment rate for what i do, everywhere other than where i live, is 100%.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: absolutely correct. should be something more along the lines of "unemployment rate for skilled programmers".
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: Authoritative record of the matter http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com/?quote=325
asciilifeform: for instance, afaik, white man anywhere in east asia is either a miserable wretch, a hermit, or largely confined to an enclave of his own kind.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: you left out an important bit - how much you (for particular value of 'you') even make sense there as a foreign devil
gabriel_laddel: cazalla: consider this a request for a qntra article entitled "the promised land" with exit points: Russia, Israel, Argentina & China weighing the relative tradeoffs of each with the angle that the US is going to fail. things I'm interested in knowing about each territory: character of the rule of law, taxes, status of the tech scene, character of the gov., description of major cities, # of nuclear reactors and thei
BingoBoingo: I dunno there real is a serious one. States are sluts. They all flirt with each other until someone gets the clap. Russia though does better business with Israel's neighbors.
PeterL: Where's the wot chart for countries?
PeterL: What is the current relationship between Russia and Israel?
BingoBoingo: Not enemies, but not allies either.
BingoBoingo: PeterL: And then there's the part where many US allies are explicitly not Israel allies
PeterL: If US disappears, then many of the other US allies will be having problems, so will be unable to help Isreal
gabriel_laddel: BingoBoingo: hmmm. I don't know much about the situation there and will refrain from commenting on it.
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: Because they can't repel all of their enemies. Israel has had a chronic ally shortage.
gabriel_laddel: BingoBoingo: really? because now they can't kill irritating brown people outright?
gabriel_laddel: BingoBoingo: for now. say US drops off the map.
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform is a person for whom programing is incidental to his other goals
BingoBoingo: Israel also for USian escapees also has the downside of being in orbit.
decimation: all sorts of elites in the US (including government leaders) send their kids to server in the isreali army
asciilifeform: generally the main attraction of israel - military service
BingoBoingo: decimation: That's the current strategy, but I'm tempted to take it to a jury next year finally
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: aha. probably don't even qualify as good cannon fodder these days.
BingoBoingo: But to seriously escape USia, even by land one needs a plan that cover not just the simple border crossing, but also the next hop to a candidate for a haven.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: equipment can be replaced, in theory. i can't leave because i'm of no use to anyone elsewhere.
gabriel_laddel: BingoBoingo: everything I've got to my name fits in two bags. I understand that ascii can't leave because of equipment, but that isn't the situation for most people.
PeterL: then what is?
BingoBoingo: Money is not the obstacle with passport.
gabriel_laddel: BingoBoingo: they're a couple hundred dollars.
decimation: I doubt anyone will stop you if you just walk across the mighty Rio Grande
PeterL: powered paraglider? Fits in the back of a pick-up, fly across border?
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: the very reason why it is still trivial to leave usa is the lack of an obvious destination.
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: Sinaloa and Los Zetas didn't grow themselves
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: I make efforts to acquire USD, but avoiding the honeytrap that is the drug business options are limited so I have a tent. Upon leaving with my budget first obstacle is the DEA's pet insecurity problem in Norther Mexico.
gabriel_laddel: BingoBoingo: come on. you're telling me that you can't set out for the promised land with 50k cash in your back pocket and be able to figure out some way to a) have bitcoin in the future and b) make enough USD now to live on?
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: Ah, but where to get USD outside of the bezzel!
BingoBoingo: PeterL: The one good thing Illinois has are roads downstate... Unless they are under construction.
gabriel_laddel: BingoBoingo: You don't have to give up USD immediately if you leave the US.
PeterL: my in-laws live in illinois, they always complain about the high taxes and lack of any visibile benefit from paying said taxes
BingoBoingo: Unless one sufficiently accept the role of tame crank.
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: A thing I am experiencing is when one rejects the local bezzel the local bezzel makes it hard to leave.
BingoBoingo: decimation: The only local police force called out by name in the UN indictment of the US human rights record? The Shitcago police department. http://qntra.net/2014/12/un-report-criticises-united-states-on-human-rights/
gabriel_laddel: BingoBoingo: this is however, a good thing. it will leave out the
PeterL: when leader dies, the longest serving council member becomes new leader
PeterL: In response to the earlier talk of choosing a monarch, it made me think of the way the Mormon church chooses its leader:
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: I'm in the middle of the corral. As asciilifeform has mentioned earlier leaving is not easy.
gabriel_laddel: BingoBoingo: dosen't matter really. have you met any American cattle? when the country fails they'll find themselves rejected everywhere / killed outright.
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: But if they do wake, where to go?
gabriel_laddel: "It's a shame that taxpayers have to be on the hook for the criminal actions of their "servants" but it's still good when citizens let police know that there will be some consequences for rights violations."
decimation: http://reason.com/blog/2014/12/16/illegitimate-no-photography-arrest-leads << apparently the police arrested this woman and accused her of being a terrorist for the crime of taking a picture of a display-helicopter in a public place
gabriel_laddel: "before 'the sheeple wake'" hmmm... I'm sorta under the impression that they're not ever going to wake. the thing with sheep is that they get tend to get slaughtered. after 5-10 years of living the life of American cattle the brain starts to deteriorate from lack of use. threaten them an all you get is pathetic bleating.
asciilifeform: just as the cattle rancher. he will be zapped, when the story is sufficiently forgotten and no longer media-enabled
asciilifeform: 'the art of saying 'good dog' until you can find a proper stone'
BingoBoingo thinks outlaw restaurants would be a decent theme for a trip around USia
asciilifeform: there will have to be perhaps a million confiscations, dekulakizations, before 'the sheeple wake'
asciilifeform: sad that the confiscation did not proceed;
asciilifeform: it floats around, in the vacuum, wandering.
asciilifeform: 'Deliberately keeping deposits below that threshold to avoid the reporting requirement is a crime (known as "structuring"), but Hinders was never charged with it. Instead federal prosecutors argued that her bank account had facilitated the crime of structuring, making it subject to civil forfeiture.' << lol!
decimation: http://reason.com/blog/2014/12/15/feds-graciously-agree-not-to-steal-resta << "Federal prosecutors have stopped trying to steal $33,000 from an Iowa restaurateur who irked the IRS by making deposits of less than $10,000."
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Sure, but those problems have solutions! Except for the deadliest thing around is the trash problem.
decimation: you too can start a new life in the off world colonies
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: nah, all over the place. But I only ever compute in bed while sitting.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: let me guess, you're one of those folks who only lie on their back in bed and never else.
kakobrekla: nooo not the usb!
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: okay, so the monitor folds down with a usb keyboard in some sort of rack attached to it.
asciilifeform: the black van man should have to work for his pay.
decimation: I wish they made e-ink displays that updated at a reasonable frequency and were large
gabriel_laddel: re in bed computing. is there something wrong with a bluetooth keyboard on the lap and a monitor that folds onto the ceiling?
kakobrekla: lol. he is even worse than me, wont leave the bed.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: can't speak for others, but my programming is 90+% read/think and 10% write, timewise
kakobrekla: well reading in bed and writing in bed arent the same thing.
asciilifeform: 'Some immediately apparent disadvantages are: ... ... I cannot read in bed. The book-size portable terminal will come later. A household may require several terminals or perhaps we may have to compromise with sin and provide a hard copy terminal after all.'
decimation: asciilifeform: http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/hoter.html << I was reading Herr McCarthy's 'dreams of the future' from 1970
decimation: neither seems particularly elegant
decimation: the only alternative is a fine locking mechanism
decimation: asciilifeform: this came up yesterday with the global interpreter lock
gabriel_laddel: (re: Threaded Emacs, I've already walked that road - don't waste your time. Not going to happen and won't fix the underlying issues with Emacs anyways.)
asciilifeform: the latter, aside from being a poetteringism, consumes precious memory
asciilifeform furious that the emacs in that box's ports tree cannot easily build without dbus
decimation: asciilifeform: you don't compile the latest emacs 24?
asciilifeform: so can't speak for other folks. but several people i've exposed to it are now habitual users.
asciilifeform: i've had the keys in muscle memory since i was 6 y.o. or so
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: kk, added to "the list"
asciilifeform: basic operations mapped to 'f' keys, just like in the ancient 'norton commander' it was originally a clone of
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: will, for example, traverse most known (and, with minor fiddling, unknown) types of archive as if they were dirs
asciilifeform: but none (discussion limited to modern-ish hardware, rather than collectables) that don't have mc.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: while we're on the subject, is there anything you consider absolutely essential for computing outside of CL+SLIME?
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: if you've information contradicting the stackoverflow question in question please say so. I'm in the middle of building a non-retarted linux distribution and would like to have Emacs as battle ready as possible by default.
asciilifeform: perhaps it wasn't a flag, but had to actually diddle the src.
gabriel_laddel: this is the thread I was following up on http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=21-11-2014#930233
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: the never ending quest for a bed-ready computer?
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I'm rather curious as to why you're fixing (for some value of that word - more akin to fixing up a corpse before burial, w/e) up a openbsd box when you've got your own gentoo 'fork'?
decimation: I can't keep the kde and gnome stuff straight
gabriel_laddel: <asciilifeform> http://patrick.wagstrom.net/weblog/2008/01/03/goodbye-openbsd << vintage whine re: dependency hells << infinite hitpoits, see UNIX haters handbook. (This isn't directed at ascii, but rather n00bs who have not read it.)
decimation: the new hotness is 'archbsd'
decimation: asciilifeform: re: useful classes < at purdue they had welding, but it was always completely booked
kakobrekla: the idea it it wont, so he wont and i wont.
mike_c: he better not show up with the same thing as last year
kakobrekla: he must go to show off the rng or smth? :)
kakobrekla: i dont leave the house if i dont have to.
mike_c: the long flight? rotten company?
kakobrekla: lol i dont mind the rally but has nothing to do with it :)
mike_c: well, hopefully there will be a rally soon and you change your mind.
mike_c: aww. it's a new stamp on the passport!
kakobrekla: -1.26, i wonder if this accounts for the general shit quality of miner hw
mats: unlike the war islam is waging on the rest of the world, on the express command of the prophet
mats: the IRA and its motivations are separatist and political in nature
assbot: Sydney siege: Abbott refuses to blame Islam for Man Haron Monis's actions | Australia news | The Guardian ... ( http://bit.ly/13vUtaK )
mats: http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2014/dec/17/sydney-siege-abbott-refuses-to-blame-islam-for-man-haron-moniss-actions?CMP=soc_567
adlai: all information deducible from one transaction graph is deducible from the other, and using unique addresses means that unspent transactions aren't [yet] linked to the business
davout: i don't think address reuse enhances privacy either
adlai: in the case of multiple business addresses, it's easy, but in the case of the business using a single address, you can still see which input from the customer transactions was used
adlai: there's the example of several customer transactions to several business addresses, and several customer transactions to one business address; in both examples, you can see which customer funds have been spent where, and which haven't been touched.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I've seen them just sitting and littering a yard. That's a use.
adlai: BingoBoingo: the argument in that blog post kinda assumes you can't distinguish between inputs from the same address
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: You may interpret wagon wheel purchase however you like. I'll decline to offer the use case for such a versatile tool at the moment.
davout: kakobrekla: there are degrees in catholisrry tho
asciilifeform: reusing addrs may stengthen anonymity but increases your Luke-Jrability.
assbot: Why exactly reusing Bitcoin addresses strengthens Bitcoin user anonimity pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1sxK7Nt )
BingoBoingo: Luke-Jr: Services that reuse addresses across multiple customers help to conceal which customer funds are going in of and out of the service http://trilema.com/2014/why-exactly-reusing-bitcoin-addresses-strengthens-bitcoin-user-anonimity/
adlai: also "[adlai's dad] is one of the best drunk drivers I know" - one of his friends
adlai: if a human can carry on a conversation while driving, then the social stigma against that conversation being digital is a failure of technology alone
diametric: jesus taking the wheel while you chat?
Luke-Jr: adlai: any Gentoo user can customise the list easily
BingoBoingo: Luke-Jr: Is this the "filter all address reuse" idea
asciilifeform: Luke-Jr: say what it is, then
Luke-Jr: adlai: they already do - but it's "hardcoded" because that's simpler
adlai: just let each running node choose [whether to, and] whom to filter
Luke-Jr: asciilifeform: there is a more long-term solution that would help the current case AND your proposed daily-changed-addresses case, which once implemented, I do plan to propose for mainlining
Luke-Jr: adlai: node operators are just outsourcing their decision-making to a central group of developers
adlai: the arms race having not yet picked up speed is not exactly an invitation to speed it up
Luke-Jr: adlai: for me, part of this isn't so much the spam filtering, as much as it is trying to combat monoculture
adlai: Luke-Jr: even if you succeed, you have admitted yourself that there are rather trivial ways for the entities you're trying to filter, to sidestep your filters
asciilifeform: Luke-Jr: don't lie and say that it won't be a remote-updated kill list. because that's the only answer - other than surrender.
asciilifeform: Luke-Jr: let's suppose that we agreed with your 'blockchain environmentalism' philosophy, and wished to expell the dice men. say they start to switch addrs daily. what will you propose as a counter-attack?
adlai: but the debate (no quotes needed, it's very real, otherwise you wouldn't be engaging it) is also a great waste of your energy
mats: the mental gymnastics involved here are very revealing
Luke-Jr: adlai: because the "debate" is run by trolls; the sane people have mostly been supportive once they learn what it's actually about
adlai: ie, why is the debate about blacklists, and not scalability
gribble: The Six Dumbest Ideas in Computer Security: <http://www.ranum.com/security/computer_security/editorials/dumb/>; Enumerating Badness: The latest way Facebook conspires to ...: <http://www.oxy.edu/information-resources/blog/enumerating-badness-latest-way-facebook-conspires-destroy-you>; The Six Dumbest Ideas in Computer Security.pdf: (1 more message)
asciilifeform: Luke-Jr: even if we all despised the dice men as much as you did, named filter is still monumentally stupid;
adlai wonders whether it's helpful to look at the potential attacks on bitcoin as spam to be censored... or as a challenge to be accepted
asciilifeform: Luke-Jr: i dare guess that much of the hostility to your 'spam filter' mod comes from the expectation that it is a 'camel's nose in the tent' for a dynamic, centrally-controlled censor mechanism. because anything short of that would simply dissipate like a fart in the wind in the face of any kind of organized resistence whatsoever.
fluffypony: it must suck to be universally accepted as mind-numbingly stupid and yet not have the intelligence to be introspective enough to see it within yourself and change for the better
adlai: fluffypony: hate leads to the usg side of the force. just play, have fun, go home, hope you don't get mugged on the way.
asciilifeform: Luke-Jr: so surrender now. if your mod had any traction at all, the victims would escape within seconds.
adlai: fluffypony: well, Luke-Jr just said recently that the [current] vatican is no longer an authority on catholicism
Luke-Jr: asciilifeform: no idea, maybe impossible then
asciilifeform: Luke-Jr: 'spam' debate aside - how do you intend to filter the dice txes when the dicemeisters let go of the idiocy of reusing addrs ?
Luke-Jr: danielpbarron: I said nothing of the sort.
Luke-Jr: adlai: I had only changed it to "extras" on request from someone in the previous thread
adlai: (in addition to all of the last hubbub)
Luke-Jr: adlai: I changed it back, since there does seem to be preference for "ljr" now and the reason makes sense.
adlai: Luke-Jr: the names of use flags. the latest hubbub seems to be people complaining about the change from "ljr" to "extra"
Luke-Jr: definitely can't do that justice, much less from the car, though LOL
Luke-Jr: adlai: basically I easily refuted many false religions, then found I couldn't do the same for Catholicism
adlai: probably the kind that doesn't like when patch names aren't consistent across package versions :)
adlai: Luke-Jr: i'm interested to hear how "science led me to these beliefs"
adlai: that can probably be continued from the car
Luke-Jr ponders if he can continue this from the car
diametric: yay i can join in the games now
fluffypony: [22:59:44] <+Adlai>Luke-Jr: the question still stands. how does humanity pick a monarch <- well humanity sure as fuck didn't choose Luke-Jr to be the Bitcoin monarch.
Luke-Jr: adlai: (and if you assume God is fake, then there's no basis for caring about Catholicism, so that's not really an argument)
adlai: who knows wtf happened in the 13th century during a famine
Luke-Jr: anyhow, the modernist antipopes can be cited as using the heresy modernism to justify their other heresies
adlai: so, you're trusting the people involved in catholicism AT EVERY POINT IN TIME to not have changed it
adlai: Luke-Jr: my issue with anti-modernism is that we only really know what's modern. anybody who tells you that something isn't modern, and is the original doctrine, could just have made that up yesterday (or N years ago), and been fooling everybody ever since
BingoBoingo: cazalla: Probably because they are delicious
BingoBoingo: Since MP is on vacation all of the cookies for kakobrekla http://thecraftingfoodie.com/images/old/6a014e8748a9fb970d019aff7aae92970b-pi.jpg
kakobrekla: jborkl lack of oxygen in the first couple of minutes of birth does that.
Luke-Jr: jborkl: science led me to these beliefs
Adlai: some of those are written, some of those were made up yesterday; but the situation is still the same
jborkl: Luke, how do you understand math and science, yet still hold onto these beliefs? I really do not understand how that happens
Vexual: Pretty clothes and incence, yep, it's catholic
Luke-Jr: http://www.cmri.org/02-v2decrees.html contrasts some of the Modernists' core heresies with the Church's teaching
Adlai: there hasn't been rock since jesus built his church on it
BingoBoingo: Come on Guys, there hasn't been a Pope since Brutus stabbed Kaiser
Luke-Jr: davout: many points, by now; their key heresy is called Modernism - the belief that doctrine changes over time http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10415a.htm
davout: Adlai: that was the point actually
Adlai: kakobrekla: i don't think i've been politically correct or pretending. in case there's any doubt, i also think that there's some level of delusion involved... but i also value conversation over insult
davout: Luke-Jr: how is the current "anti-pope" not catholic?