asciilifeform: what ideas. spain was there long first.
asciilifeform: that is, there is a fence to keep folks from leaving; they are left to fend for selves for food and water within the confines; and if the weekly quota of $metal is not brought to the gates in timely manner, there are public educaxecutions
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i'm expecting to end up in an inca-style, rather than soviet-style, camp
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Naturally. I still wait for California's Seirra Nevada range to be inverted in the quest for rare minerals and to create H2O reservoir capacity to sustain the prisons and work farms.
assbot: The White House on Charlie Hebdo, Then and Now - Hit & Run : Reason.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1s6yAK7 )
BingoBoingo: Only really differs in that some outside idiots consider things that emerge from there as worthy of consideration as virtue, instead of vice as in the case of English gin.
mircea_popescu: independence is predicated on something other than being a redditor.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this kind of thing worked in 'tribal' structure, where most folks are reasonably 'close to the soil' and grow/kill the necessities of life personally. i suppose it also works in a concentration camp - though, iirc, these also typically have a kind of scrip and so aren't entirely free of currency.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'Currency generally is in the hands of a selected few, this situation where every man woman and child holds some is an exception, and I suspect coming to an end.' << i recall being shown, as a boy, an 1890s ru coin that 'would feed a family for a month!111!!'
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: In is not the only scarce mineral.
undata: asciilifeform: seems like an economic meltdown would also decrease the demand for those for new iPhones
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'The notion that gold supply does not increase a lot is predicated on obsolete technology. Gold supply would increase quite a lot, and in really harmful ways involving cyanide, if it seriously became monetized.' << iirc, cyanidation was SOP since 1890s.
mike_c: ^ it is also illegal to sell them.. such bullshit.
asciilifeform: just like you can't spend subway tokens outside of the subway.
asciilifeform: at some point, usd will no longer be a 'convertible' unit. completing its transition to equivalent of the soviet ruble.
asciilifeform: admittedly, a peculiar kind of scrip, for which one can get certain things overseas (for the time being)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'Let them have scrip, will be good enough for them...' << usd is not already scrip ?
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/oil-theory/#comment-111275 perhaps of broad interest seeing the fork war context.
Apocalyptic: "mircea_popescu:i must say, incidentally, i thoroughly enjoyed this discussion." // so did I, thanks for the priceless logs
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/01/lawmakers-facebook-rant-threatens-media-for-unauthorized-use-of-his-name << turns out we have these here.
cazalla: BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Bitstamp's line is the 4th and they didn't announce before then. so if it was earlier still time for customers to get fucked pertending deposit addressses are theirs. <<< and there is still the issue of what amount of coins will not honoured by bitstamp after the annoucement
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rkt1u/coinbase_give_us_the_right_to_run_your_credit/cngz6fs a voice of reason
cazalla: mircea_popescu: HOWEVER. one of those addresses is http://bitbet.us/stats/1QJRfCctSz7BLriE7CiF5LefBXJgm6Jcax/ <<< isn't this just a case of someone using their bitstamp deposit address for bitbet payouts, even kakobrekla mentioned this http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=05-01-2015#965903
artifexd: Binary would mean shorter messages because fingerprint a would only take up 20 bytes (instead of 40) and keys would not have to be armored. Text would make the flow easier to read/debug but the data would necessarily take up more space.
artifexd: mircea_popescu: Regarding gossipd, do you have any preference for the data flowing over the wire as binary or text?
BingoBoingo: * asciilifeform will fly to conf3 on a pig, if this happens << The Fairchild "WartHog"???
BingoBoingo: "Attacks cell walls" You know just what penicillin and the rest of the beta-lactams do: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2015-01-07/antibiotic-breakthrough-ends-25-year-discovery-drought.html
mircea_popescu: something tells me they have nfi how to write a term sheet, and there's about 50-50 odds of the financer backing out.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla so they can "cover" by being bought.
mike_c: they should come to NYC. very bitcoin friendly. just drop all your coins off at lawsky's office on the way into town.
kakobrekla: i dont think so but dont have the details.
mike_c: interesting. they must be retaining UK incorporation, no? I would think it would be legal shitstorm otherwise.
mircea_popescu: by the way, requiem for a dream. good film.
kakobrekla: as safe as their hot wallet
asciilifeform: 'got fish? nope, this is the meat counter. fish is what they don't have at the fish counter.'
mircea_popescu: "Keep up the good work!"
mircea_popescu: "But what of it? How does this effect you? Well, it effects" affects you. afect is another name for sentiment. to affect is to cause an effect upon something. to effect, confusingly enough, is to cause the execution of something. so, you effect legislation, and that legislation affects people.
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell pete_dushenski "Their habitual attacks on forums is usually" << are.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the interesting thing is that usg has not succeeded in entirely displacing the native, ethnic 'lotteries'
mircea_popescu: and i have this distinct memory of a kid being pissed of at some chick, and going to carve "X is a whore" in the wall
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i'm told that there is - somewhat lower-tech - traditional 'black on black' sc4mz0r1ng - 'numbers games' run in back alleys, etc. << Replaced by same game with different operator "Lottery"
mircea_popescu: probably on the same damned exact stones.
asciilifeform: the very same
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah. the shit run by jews in 1935.
asciilifeform: i'm told that there is - somewhat lower-tech - traditional 'black on black' sc4mz0r1ng - 'numbers games' run in back alleys, etc.
mircea_popescu: "black on black violence in the ghetto is so and so!!1". fine. and white on white scamming in bitcoin is how ?
thestringpuller: mir-dizzle to the popes-rizzle
mircea_popescu: anyway, i have no problem with dudes going "oh, blacks do all teh crime!!!" if that's what they believe, and start running off stats about it. big whoop. but it's funny how nobody happens to fucking noticing the OTHER stats.
thestringpuller: gotta love pasty white girls who are afraid of the sun like vampires tho ;)
thestringpuller: pretty sure he's taking bitpay cock up da butt knowing the implications
mircea_popescu: what atlantic really means is "why are there so few black scammers in bitcoin, because that's all we know about anyway". and the reason couldn't possibly be "because they're just more honest than whitey"
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i guess that works out then, prolly a customer.
jurov: also, email clients. it was *not* possible to make all them work with self-signed cert
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Bitstamp's line is the 4th and they didn't announce before then. so if it was earlier still time for customers to get fucked pertending deposit addressses are theirs.
mircea_popescu: as opposed to announcement thereof ?
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> now is the theory here that what, the haxxor is using on bitbet the same address that nejc was using on bitbet prior to the "hack" ? because why ? << I don't see any new bets after the 4th. COuld just be a derp who wanted to "win" to his Bitstamp deposit address?
jurov: i don't see how every time i'm accessing anything via https/smtps i'm going to think whether this is the right cert
jurov: i'm looking forward how are they going to solve it in libressl, if ever
mircea_popescu: jurov so you mean, it only works for sessions where the user knows/trusts the source, as opposed to whatever, random drive-by publishing ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they also managed this situation where all the shit online carries a "5000 derps that don't really exist LIKE THIS"
asciilifeform: yes, usg succeeded in setting up the situation where every luserplebe's browser will ring bells, flash lights, if a cert didn't come with a hitler signature
jurov: so they are not "almost zero cost"
kakobrekla: yes they are so cause browsers.
assbot: Breaking: 12 Killed In French ISLAMIC Terror Attack. The REAL Story… ... ( http://bit.ly/1424mfR )
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: this is because the browsers are usg projects.
asciilifeform: the traditional party line is 'oh noez you'll be mitm-ed if your browser doesn't refuse self-signed'
mircea_popescu: jurov im curious to hear the self signed cert reasoning tbh.
asciilifeform: in case anyone needs to be reminded of this - ssl remains a crock of shit - as in, the entire protocol stack is porous and comically maldesigned
mircea_popescu: obviously "one has no way of knowing" if a self signed cert is good. but if there's also a .asc on the server... i'd say it's a damned sight better than "Verizon certifies"
asciilifeform: and if a 'luser' won't read or can't remember the genuine fingerprint, and won't write it down, whatever - he has no business owning computer
asciilifeform: if using the ssl crock of shit at all, being your own signing authority (instead of swallowing the master key bullshit and extortionary fees of the 'authorities') is the only way to go
mircea_popescu: are they bad ?
jurov: ncfaci meant the bits where he promoted self-signed certs
mircea_popescu: TF can now claim relevance and victory by conceding practically every principle ever held dear in return for the privilege of rubber-stamping Google's initiative."
mircea_popescu: "The IETF, obviously fearing irrelevance, hastily "discovered" that the HTTP/1.1 protocol needed an update, and tasked a working group with preparing it on an unrealistically short schedule. This ruled out any basis for the new HTTP/2.0 other than the SPDY protocol. With only the most hideous of SPDY's warts removed, and all other attempts at improvement rejected as "not in scope," "too late," or "no consensus," the IE
mircea_popescu: who the fuck is Taylor Swift
mircea_popescu: nubbins`: it just pulls news stories from other websites and does blind word replacement on the articles, to make them seem original <<< there's a million of these.
assbot: Whitest Kids U Know - I am gonna grape you in the mouth - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/141Xdfz )
mircea_popescu: fluffypony links for you there, as it happens.
assbot: 0749dddfaecad1445f66 comments on Looking before the Scaling Up Leap - by Gavin Andresen ... ( http://bit.ly/141WUBo )
mircea_popescu: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rji9f/looking_before_the_scaling_up_leap_by_gavin/cnhdze7?context=3 << check it out, hashname perseveres.
mircea_popescu: fluffypony but the logs!
mircea_popescu: hot damn i hope they go through with it
mircea_popescu: ahhh the fact reddit is so in favour of this hardfork business is so great :D
mircea_popescu: is this the french commie ?
PeterL: my father-in-law earns a living at home in his pajamas, programming
thestringpuller: the joys of slave labor in US eh?
thestringpuller: sorry to hear you got the flu asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: now is the theory here that what, the haxxor is using on bitbet the same address that nejc was using on bitbet prior to the "hack" ? because why ?
mircea_popescu: nejc/bitstamp crew allege that hacker somehow got into their system, stole privkeys for their addresses, AND THEN deleted their copies. magically. they were all online or something, who knows.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-01-2015#968556 << kid is practically begging to be beaten, they won't oblige.
mircea_popescu: so no, if it lasts forever and it's nothing but a hellish cried of the tortured all the better.
mircea_popescu: the fact that no lord ever wanted whoever he punished to ever die is directly apparent if you look at two things : their artists made hell be eternal torture ; the bodies lay in the gibbet at the gate for much longer than the dude inside survived.
mircea_popescu: the expensive and painful slow roasting of idiots is a very valuable output.
thestringpuller: ideally killing the fork before it's even a thing.
mircea_popescu: whatever mini-nuland is in charge does not understand that there are forces more powerful on the field, who "do not understand how the world works"
thestringpuller: so who declared the war?
thestringpuller: that's kublai/ghengis khan talk there
mircea_popescu: check out the idiocy lol.
mircea_popescu: "Not everyone who wants an immediate confirmation will be able to get it, regardless of how much they pay. If there's more people wanting next-block confirmation than there are slots in the block, it's mathematically guaranteed that people will miss out. As network usage grows, the percentage of unsatisfied users will grow linearly with it."
TomServo: 'evening. It goes well, aside from the gribble vacation.
thestringpuller: jurov: haha. not so much cyrus from "The Warriors"
jurov: "Lovers of all things sly gathered to move on a holiday cheer, tell a few jokes and lift income for cats with no place to call home." indeed
jurov: Police were called. They contend a 35-year-old Angus, Ont., male was inebriated and incompetent to scrupulously caring for himself.
nubbins`: it just pulls news stories from other websites and does blind word replacement on the articles, to make them seem original
jurov: cue thestringpuller chest thumping in full gear
mod6: thestringpuller: Last Of A Dying Breed
mod6: shit makes me so mad i want to punch two birds in the face: http://media.coindesk.com/2014/04/Gavin-with-cockie1.jpg
assbot: gavinandresen comments on Looking before the Scaling Up Leap - by Gavin Andresen ... ( http://bit.ly/1DxlYNe )
mod6: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rji9f/looking_before_the_scaling_up_leap_by_gavin/cngsj0b << ``OH GAVIN, DO YOU WANT SOME BUNNY COINZ?! WHERE CAN WE ALL LINE UP TO FELLATE YOU FOR BREAKING BITCOIN?''
thestringpuller: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rji9f/looking_before_the_scaling_up_leap_by_gavin/cngsj0b
mircea_popescu: i had the feeling when i was 16 :D
BingoBoingo: And it's the kind of youth one has to be older than 30 to experience.
BingoBoingo: Needs more time to coalesce on brain. Might be on the order tomorrow.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Yeah. the skeleton in the RFC wasn't as revealing as the conversation was. gossipd putting the emphasis on Relay in IRC
BingoBoingo: * mircea_popescu finds it funny how the same one stump trips erryone. << Had to watchh for a while, but it clicked all at once
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> [] probably quite a few folks. but the thing that distinguishes fermat from wot is that wot needs to be at least quasi-'hot' to really work as intended, imho. << strikes me that a series of "rating" messages should be parsed to build a rating history.
ben_vulpes: it's because we're all distracted by the hyperattractor 30d above the horizon and 15 deg port!
mircea_popescu finds it funny how the same one stump trips erryone.
mircea_popescu: and for them only.
ben_vulpes: not a record of all strings sent to "#b-a", but a record of all strings sent to "#b-a" as seen by the lN of "assbot".
ben_vulpes: forgive the dunce cap hanging over my eyes, but i'm entirely failing to see how this makes for an unrepudiable log of the forum.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes no but recall the thing itself i refer to. a pastebin contract was in fact proferred.
mircea_popescu: except once the few derps flaked, i had nobody to complain to.
ben_vulpes: i was commenting at the point in the discusison at which messages were unsigned. did messages become signed?
mircea_popescu: the contract is forthwith produced.
mircea_popescu: you agree to the terms.
ben_vulpes: ah i guess the log only makes sense as maintained by someone in a wot
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> [] that is an ad-hoc, bug-ridden reimplementation of the blockchain! << yeah but only half
ben_vulpes: it only works for us, and sort of right now (?!?!?) because once upon a time assbot relied on the "authedness" of users via the "gribble" service.
ben_vulpes: how to preserve the serenissima log semantics though? if all "chat lines" are wholly deniable, the notion of a public forum in which to do business publically falls apart.
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> [] and if i am in your list and you in mine the same is preserved by gossipd. << means that if you want everything you say on the record, operate a server for your identity.
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> i like 'unscannable for', not because of any derping re: 'anonymity', but from sheer delight in the morale hit to enemy << this one in particular
mircea_popescu: "we were going to make it, so i told the wife, go ahead and get started, i'ma grab a paper"
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: glad you took some interest in it. take the time later to write some comments?
mircea_popescu: haha you know the rickjles joke ?
asciilifeform: moving parts (except in the bare minimum of diaphragm) are a no-no.
asciilifeform: ('chemical' in the sense of having no appreciable electrical currents flowing, nor conductors, except in a residual, ionic sense, nor semiconductors, inside.)
asciilifeform: in my 'death notebook' there is a design for a purely-chemical 'bug'.
asciilifeform: theremin's 'bug' was, from this point of view, sheerly 'martian' technology.
asciilifeform: connecting it to either a tape recorder (no smaller, even in the most 'golden toilet' variant, than an auto pistol) - or to an actual set of headphones on a head.
asciilifeform: rather, it was a microphone, often at least as large as, say, a thimble, and a very long wire
asciilifeform: at that time, a typical 'bug' was not a small 'pill', easily concealed, transmitting (or recording) audio for weeks or months - the way one thinks of them now
asciilifeform: one must appreciate the kind of technological leap it was, in that period
asciilifeform: a somewhat younger, livelier usg had a multitude of copies produced, and used in utmost secrecy, almost immediately after the find.
asciilifeform: there are some historical documents that suggest the original was destroyed by clumsy inspectors.
decimation: 'the thing' I mean
decimation: lol theremin was a zek when he 'invented' it
asciilifeform: !s theremin
asciilifeform: decimation: the original 'rfid', yes
assbot: The Thing (listening device) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1ADxuqQ )
decimation: asciilifeform: like the 'soviet embassy bug': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the price for this, of course, is immutability :)
asciilifeform: in the sense of the signal in one direction being a modified, phase-shifted version of the continuous signal in the other.
asciilifeform: 'one way' in the customary (numbers-station-to-spies) sense
decimation: yes, except physics categorizes these things naturally, in terms of propagation
asciilifeform: decimation: i'd classify all 'one way radio' as a single category for purpose of the discussion re: algorithmic basics.
mircea_popescu: the kittens eat pigeons, so... no 1149
asciilifeform: proving the point that stateless, medium-agnostic 'connectionless' comms are the only solid way to go.
asciilifeform: mpex was not the inspiration for my version of the concept, but was the impetus for my coming to believe that it is buildable and worth confessing to people about
asciilifeform: adlai: the way i understand it, we have at least three people right here who came up with very similar - but different in important respects - attempted solutions.
adlai: sure, this "ircd" thingy is just the latest in an uncoordinated herd of attempts to attack this same general problem
decimation: the only real method of escape is layer 1 routing
decimation: the interent, as exists, is like tor - in the sense that the group is trying to solve the individual's problem
asciilifeform: adlai: described it at some length in #b-a at various points in the past month; also in a few comments on mircea_popescu's site.
adlai: is this udp-over-wot concept "too long to fit in the margin", or have you sketched something about about it somewhere?
asciilifeform: 'If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.' (richilieu)
decimation: but I do see the problem of broadcasting signed messages everywhere
mircea_popescu: decimation how was the experience ?
asciilifeform: hypothetical, sadly, bedrock
mircea_popescu: decimation did you actually read the whole discussion ?
mircea_popescu: yes, once that happens, they could.
decimation: (the new ircd being proposed here)
asciilifeform happens to be a crackpot specializing in the subject of 'abstractions being interchangeably paperable over is a mega-lie, foundations matter forever'
mircea_popescu: which is the low level function ?
mircea_popescu: and impertinent at the same time!
mircea_popescu: they get gender bits retrofitted. it's a joke.
assbot: Logged on 07-01-2015 01:22:05; asciilifeform: with udp, you can make the 'friend or foe?' decision upon receipt of a single (!) packet.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform explain transsexuals then.
mircea_popescu: (i mean, as opposed to soft. it's not like twitter, follow X. it's the opposite, "send to X")
mircea_popescu: artifexd nevertheless, since output is always encrypted to a key,
asciilifeform believes the future to hold many one-way links
mircea_popescu: artifexd you will notice the spec is broadcast-oriented.
asciilifeform: artifexd: for sufficiently simple quanta, it is very easy to 'verify received' without duplicating all the cruft of tcp.
artifexd: upd is trivial for sending information if you don't care if they received it
artifexd: They do via UDP
mircea_popescu: so im guessing this is going to be forced by the medium.
mircea_popescu: more importantly, connections on the internet don't work unilaterally.
artifexd: We have to both agree to trust each other.
artifexd: If you and I are online, unless we are both in each other's list, we will never direct-connect.
mircea_popescu: so did the pets peeking in online. but no.
mircea_popescu: all born the same stupid place.
mircea_popescu: this is specifically because, historically, the individual is more important than the group
asciilifeform: it is the inevitable construction that stands.
asciilifeform: gossipd proposes a scheme more akin to the traditional 'cell' organizations of revolutions, etc
mircea_popescu: now apply the same analysis to gossipd.
asciilifeform: well yes. nsa comes inevitably in because you are trusting three strangers whom you know nothing about, to form the circuit.
mircea_popescu: once that's in there, of course fucking nsa.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform even the platonic.
mircea_popescu: wheras as proposed, gossipd makes the enemy outright impossible.
mircea_popescu: it is fundamentally broken and will never work exactly because it simply presumes the adversary wins.
mircea_popescu: the tor bs is an attempt to "fix" in implementation problems to whose existence it not merely contributes, but moore! whose existence it actually postulates.
mircea_popescu: nothing of the kind.
asciilifeform: just seems like an attempt to build a stove-refrigerator hybrid. yes, can be done, yes, in some sense these are complementary machines. but - challenge.
mircea_popescu: it is, unlike the tor etc bs, actually efficient.
mircea_popescu: there's nothing lukewarm about this.
asciilifeform: rather than lukewarm step in that direction, no?
asciilifeform: but if we actually want to go in that direction, the logical result is a gadget like 'tor', with bounces, mixes, etc.
asciilifeform: hitler does know considerably more under the all-signed scenario than alternative.
asciilifeform: then mircea_popescu is correct
mircea_popescu: everything in the network duh.
asciilifeform: presumably some earthly not-quite-everything was meant, rather than a 'divine' Everything
mircea_popescu: for all he knows, they're all in cahoots, sending him lulz.
mircea_popescu: artifexd you might discover it hurts you, much like the low level usg employee who thinks the fed helps him would soon discover his lot would be better without that bit.
artifexd: I guess I like the default sign because I see myself as Panopticon. I don't talk much. But I watch and listen. Default-sign helps me.
asciilifeform: if he truly knows 'everything', he can unmask the 'deniable' speakers likewise.
mircea_popescu: well yes. all the signed chats of everyone = everything. absolutely as 1 = 1.