asciilifeform: gavinandresen: so you admit that there is not, nor can there be, a non-fraudulent 'substitute' for bitcoin? that altchains, state-minted fiat, cowrie shells, are not in fact equivalent ?
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: the only way I see is to regularly test at what tx fee the substitution begins happening, and increase it at the margin (say 20%) whenever the top percentile of fees starts hitting it. Yes, that would involve perhaps semi-annual block size limit increases and an element of judgement. I still see it as a better solution than a much-too-high limit or a contrived algorithm
davout: gavinandresen: i'm completely with ben_vulpes "the notion that the wallet code should be responsible for setting fees is utter braindamage." on one hand it's not the wallet responsibility, and on the other hand that has nothing to do with the protocol
gavinandresen: davout: I have no idea if the would cooperate enough to make that happen.
ben_vulpes: let him up the spamgun
gavinandresen: davout: Miners would only have the meta-incentive of “we can collectively maximize revenue if we make blocks THIS big”
davout: gavinandresen: "oh, the IBLT stuff? yes, that’d make propagation O(1)" <<< so with that, there's no network bottleneck anymore, at least no real incentive for miners to keep blocks small, right?
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: ok. I’d like to brainstorm more about how you would set the maximum block size— I don’t want the developers setting it every two months, but I dont’ see a way to make fee revenue per block drive it (because the real-world bitcoin exchange rate is so variable)
asciilifeform: i can almost imagine some fellow advocating the urgency of bringing down megatonnes of gold from the asteroid belt, because failing this, a great many 'gold users' may take to using paper certificates 'as substitute'
Pierre_Rochard: off-blockchain transactions are taking off, then your argument will have won the day
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: If I understand your argument correctly, you’re saying that the elasticity of demand is so great that fee maximization will be insufficient anyway, so try finding another solution now. That’s a pretty good argument, I think we should see what happens to fee revenue growth to validate it. If, say, the average fee goes up to 0.0004 btc and doesn’t budge from there, but anecdotally we hear that
kakobrekla: coinbase and the like can be *poof* gone in one day
asciilifeform: how many need to implode before folks open a game theory textbook and understand that the correct number of blockchains is one ?
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: what do you think of my argument that hash rate and fees are apples and oranges? That people will substitute away from fee-paying transactions to other solutions that use the block chain, which means trying to maximize fees means no guarantee that there will be enough hash rate to secure the chain?
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I am not. I just see a “too low” long term hash rate as the greatest risk of ruin Bitcoin faces, and it ought to be minimized before all other considerations
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2015 22:33:39; kakobrekla: how do other envision the future when reward goes towards 0. either a btc is worth half a planet or the fees amount per block go up a few orders of magnitude or network is dead
ben_vulpes: <gavinandresen> Pierre_Rochard: I believe the goal should be to maximize the value of Bitcoin for everybody << you're fired.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: I believe the goal should be to maximize the value of Bitcoin for everybody
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: You started with a premise that I reject, by the way: I do not believe that a goal should be to maximize miner revenue
ben_vulpes: eventually they mature and are prioritized.
ben_vulpes: and their transactions *don't* get tied up forever.
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: nobody who matters gives a shit about the marginal user.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: if wallets could deal with that I’d be more open to running the experiment, although I still think it is a terrible idea to shut out ANY reasonable use cases at this early stage of Bitocn’s life
asciilifeform: turd is not a substitute for sausage, despite the topological similarities.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: unfortunately, the experience for the marginal transactor is terrible: their transactions just never, ever confirm. Their coins get tied up…
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: none of the items you mentioned is a stable, noninflationary, decentralized store of value.
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: except that these systems are not substitutes for bitcoin.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: at some point they stop rising because they’re too high for the marginal transactor
ben_vulpes: you've lost all support for these large blocks in -dev
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: you cannot construct this conversation on the foundation of fees. you cannot possibly know how fees will behave in steady state or in perpetually inflating block size state.
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: i can't afford 'mercedes' so my 'honda' is a fairly good substitute for the machine. but where might one obtain a cheaper, more plentiful ersatz substitute for bitcoin ?
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: So, lets say we do see fees rise. How far do we let them rise? Who decides?
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: if you only answer one of my question, pray tell, what are the 'substitutes' ?
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: But you just said you want to let fees go up high enough so, at the margin, some people ARE turned away.
ben_vulpes: don't address any of the *only valid points* being made here.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: then we see an acceleration of adoption of an altcoin / altcoins in general and react accordingly
ben_vulpes: the list goes on.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I think Bitcoin’s overall value proposition is so overwhelming that what’s hampering Bitcoin adoption is not tx fees, it’s just the Lindy effect of it being around long enough
asciilifeform: ('schelling point' dictates that there can be precisely one blockchain.)
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: adoption is for the masses. i don't give a single fuck about the masses. bitcoin is not for them now, nor will it ever be.
asciilifeform: what, precisely, are these 'substitutes' ?
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: and we have the guns, coin and code on our side.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: but why would we want to hit the “then substitutes start happening” when we’re in Bitcoin’s infancy?
ben_vulpes: and our stake in the ground (0.5.3) is our indictment of everything that your people have done for the past umpteen months.
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: i'm pointing out that the only acceptable patch for wallets is total removal.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: fee revenue growth, if it accelerates then demand for btc transactions is relatively inelastic, the point at which it declerates indicates where substitution starts happening. If it’s right away, then you’re right on the economics. If its after a period of faster growth, then we can see what bitcoin transaction fee the market will bear before switching to substitutes
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: they go from little space, to infinite space, as circumstances dictate
ben_vulpes: and so, you had to track "relevant transactions" in the wallet.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: … I misstated: that will influence the maximum possible block size....
ben_vulpes: the moronic quest to make the thing occupy as little space on disk as possible precluded you people from selecting a queryable db
ben_vulpes: in fact the entire wallet model is completely broken.
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: the notion that the wallet code should be responsible for setting fees is utter braindamage.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: the 0.10 release’s wallet code includes floating fees, so over the next couple months we should get a much better idea of what is happening fee-wise.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: I think we’re there: http://hashingit.com/analysis/39-the-myth-of-the-megabyte-bitcoin-block
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: that we don’t increase the limit until we see what happens to total fee revenue growth after a few months of full blocks
artifexd: Yeah. I found the article through my own education. I wanted to see if it had already been discussed in here.
ben_vulpes: there is a 1mb limit.
asciilifeform: artifexd: there are considerably subtler ways to diddle rsa key generation.
asciilifeform: artifexd: the linked article was a very basic example of 'kleptography' (see our old thread)
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: and disagree with the entire concept of 'pruning'
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: again, go read the technical road map post, section on pruning the chain
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: storage is not the bottleneck/cost, bandwidth is.
gavinandresen: davout: oh, the IBLT stuff? yes, that’d make propagation O(1), and that’s what I mean when I say “when that is fixed by protocol changes"
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: or how otherwise compensate for a 20-fold growth in storage requirement
gavinandresen: davout: sorry, missed, the question, real-world distraction…
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: if there are no network protocol changes, then we’re in trouble, because number of full nodes may continue to decline
davout: gavinandresen: you're not really answering the question regarding headers-first
gavinandresen: davout: when that is fixed by protocol changes, they will have some minimum costs to processing transations plus a little profit
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: what effect do you suppose your enlarged blocks would have on the number of operating full nodes ?
davout: isn't there a plan to make block propagation O(1) by using headers-first?
ben_vulpes: Pierre_Rochard: you assume some kind of "goal", and that there's a "we" with it.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I think the limit that miners self-impose would not hold. I think we see that today
Pierre_Rochard: Now this part may be controversial for some members of b-a, but it’s at the point where fee revenue growth decelerates that the block size should be increased *marginally*, if the goal is to maximize fee revenue
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: I think you’re confusing the limit miners self-impose with the hard-coded upper limit
ben_vulpes: yeah, and again we're at the "snapshot of a dynamic thing
Pierre_Rochard: that would indicate that demand is inelastic, and it would tell us where the upper bound on bitcoin tx fees roughly is
ben_vulpes: let's at least hit the steady state behavior before starting to diddle with important economic variables like block size.
Pierre_Rochard: So here’s my hypothesis: if we allow the network to hit the block size limit, then we’ll see the transaction fee revenue growth *accelerate*, up until the point that substitution begins happening in earnest, then the fee revenue growth will *decelerate* or stall.
Pierre_Rochard: Second, there is distance between the total transaction costs of Bitcoin vs the substitutes. So there’s inelasticity in demand
ben_vulpes: there is only bitcoin, and if one cannot afford the miners fees for inclusion in a block, one does not need to transfer bitcoins enough.
Pierre_Rochard: My response to that is two-fold: if maximizing revenue to miners is our goal, then shifting marginal demand to substitutes is fine.
ben_vulpes: there is only bitcoin.
Pierre_Rochard: my main disagreement is on the economics side, you say “ Limit the number of transactions that can happen on the Bitcoin blockchain, and instead of paying higher fees people will perform their transactions somewhere else.”
ben_vulpes: in any event, gavinandresen, there'll be no more forks from you. you blew it back in the day, and you lost the initiative on this one months ago.
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: have you met http://thebitcoin.foundation ?
davout: that escalated rather quickly
davout: gavinandresen: "okey dokey, then we might not have much to talk about if you want to stick with OpenSSL bugs that were included in the protocol by mistake." <<< actually i distinctly remember mike hearn telling me how that particular bug was part of the protocol and how it somehow justified not putting any effort towards actually specifying anything, in a spec, not in code
kakobrekla: that like "dont worry we have 2 years to 'fight'" and then "o shit did we miss it?" 2 years later.
gavinandresen: felipelalli: that’d be a fine way to roll out the change; I think gmaxwell and sipa prefer that plan.
felipelalli: gavinandresen: theymos said: << (...) Make the change now, but have it take place at a particular date or block number 2 years in the future. Then when the change actually happens, everyone will already be updated because almost no one uses 2-year-old software. Yes, 2 years is a long time, but we'll survive. >> is that possible and why it is a good or bad idea?
ben_vulpes: "oh look we're also talking about improving things over there so you may as well roll over on the megablocks issue"
gavinandresen: okey dokey, then we might not have much to talk about if you want to stick with OpenSSL bugs that were included in the protocol by mistake.
felipelalli: increase the 21M max coins is possible through a hard fork?
ben_vulpes: well i can tell you right now there is zero support around here for changing the protocol in any way.
gavinandresen: ben_vulpes: yes; a soft fork makes the protocol more strict. You have to hard fork to make it more lenient.
ben_vulpes: ah, so a breaking of the protocol
gavinandresen: MP will bring all the drama :-) I try hard to be drama-free.
davout: ben_vulpes: a soft fork is making the set of valid blocks smaller, a hard fork is the opposite
gavinandresen: a hard fork means everybody running a full node must upgrade, or they will be on a different chain
gavinandresen: a soft fork means miners must upgrade, or their blocks will be rejected.
felipelalli: gavinandresen: when was the first time that you have "ruined" bitcoin?
diametric: nubbins`: I've thoroughly enjoyed the woodcollector posts.
BingoBoingo: loling at the name tweeting trilema
davout: "You are 100000% correct. It's funny how easy it is to spot a statist who thinks everything should be controlled instead of letting the market do its job."
davout: "that's the main thing i'm constantly impressed by, his demeanor is exactly right for the position he's in. he's a role model to us all, a modern day gandhi so to speak. ;)"
kakobrekla: try in 30 min will you, and if it doenst work then ill do it manually or smth
undata: no, the bank and state do
mike_c: which isn't really true. and the fact of that will become interesting when mpex takes a side on the hard-fork.
mike_c: i suppose his point is along the lines of "mpex controls the coins it is holding, but account holders own them".
mike_c: hmm.. "<sipa> justanotheruser: but control of coins != ownership of coins"
thestringpuller: i thought the french frowned upon "american" food
davout: the perfect duration for a meal is when the end of the previous one overlaps with the beginning of the next one
thestringpuller: they have subway in france?
davout: "can’t right now, have a lunch meeting. Happy to another time"
mircea_popescu: nothing about your own intellect, experience, competence or otherwise merit justifies me even knowing your fucking name. you're nobody in the plainest sense, i can throw a rock in any town in america and probably hit two of you!
mircea_popescu: hey gavin ? YOU ARE GETTING A FREE RIDE. you're pretty much the only one. you're a middling software engineer that is STILL leeching some historical happenstance.,
thestringpuller: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2t6oks/gavineries_irc_discussion_of_the_block_size/
davout: mircea_popescu: private, he pm'd me on btctalk after seeing me comment on the fork off thread
davout: thestringpuller: also link?
davout: thestringpuller: ty, let's see how that goes
davout: mircea_popescu: dunno, didn't do it myself, figured it'd be too good for them and get downvoted anyway
mircea_popescu: http://fr.anco.is/2015/gavineries/ << someone put it up on reddit ? i don't recall if dman was ever there.
davout: actually the people from Québec might be even more hardcore protectors of french purity than the people from france
thestringpuller: gotta make sure french language stays pure against all the hoodlums and their slang
davout: i guess the translator ran it by several actual frenchologists
mircea_popescu: actually i suppose thois belongs there.
mircea_popescu: you are ill qualified to as much as change a fucking version in the bvlocks, let alone the database.
mircea_popescu: "i want to tear down this wall". "why ?" "it opresses me". "the wall keeps the outside out" "OH SO YOU ARE SAYING WE SHOULD PUSH IT FURTYHER IN ?"
mircea_popescu: "<gavinandresen> Ah so youre saying we should decrease the 1MB limit, so there are higher fees and miners make more money?"
thestringpuller: nubbins`: the train runs on perpetual motion donchakno?
nubbins`: THE LAST SURVIVING HUMANS ARE STUCK ON A TRAIN THAT NEVER STOPS
mircea_popescu: not in the sense where some vcs come on later, pat us on the head, give each a car and wipe us out.
davout: thestringpuller: what's snowpiercer?
mircea_popescu: here's the thing : the vc circus has created an entire culture of these idiots. "grow fast make no money sell out"
davout: it's true it's not very clear though, being at the bottom
mircea_popescu: "The fundamental pain point here, is that Gavin insists on everyone being able to get in, instead of allowing a sane transaction fee market to emerge, by letting the blocks actually fill-up."
mircea_popescu: i dun like so much about my eyes how they miss things :D
mircea_popescu: davout i don't like so much about your blog the fact there's no clear mention of the date.
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: that coupled with the "oh you accept bitcoin? let me shower you with undeserved business" mentality << tends to be what burns Blazedout419
assbot: 4Chan’s Moot Now Forcing Mods To Sign Legal Contract That Reveals Their Identity ... ( http://bit.ly/1xXpkUH )
BingoBoingo: http://www.reaxxion.com/4437/4chans-moot-now-forcing-mods-to-sign-legal-contract-that-reveals-their-identity
gribble: You rated user Blazedout419 on Sun Mar 2 12:59:46 2014, with a rating of 2, and supplied these additional notes: trusted trader.
BingoBoingo: davout: Yeah. Even different in the most basic things, fucking iostream.h
thestringpuller: davout: i guess more the windows bindings. Like MFC etc.
davout: thestringpuller: i thought visual c++ was just an ide
kakobrekla: how do they know for sure its gonna go up and how do you save if its gonna go up if you borrow now i dunno is the loan fiat based ?
thestringpuller: "in the website"
mircea_popescu: yeah, totally need more adoption so the various scammers with bootstrap websites can burn more noobs.
thestringpuller: BingoBoingo: This is also the rationale behind a baseball game on a hot summer day. Grrr...we need to go to one this ear
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller monolitic c at least had some rationale back in 1980. but c++ is not c, and for that matter the year's not 1980 either
mircea_popescu: "oh i have 50 btc in a wallet somewhere, i contributed 5000 lines of code to bitcoin core that will have to be taken out later at considerable expense and i go to all th conferences if some scammer is paying the airfare (coach)"
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla yeah, and they all work because 4. none of these derps actually matters in bitcoin.
BingoBoingo: Yeah they need to find another sporting venture, because it is perfectly fine to be a fishing party while sitting around drinking beer.
mircea_popescu: roughly in the position of a hunting party that's out there building sandcastles and collecting flowers.
thestringpuller: trying to find another one.
BingoBoingo: Maybe they aren't sure enough yet that there will be a Gavincoin given -dev doesn't seem keen on his stuff.
mircea_popescu: apparently they'll want to change bitcoin to gavincoin 1:1 later on, but they don't want to change it at a 25% discount today.
mircea_popescu: jesus sifting from all these offline messages left by people who believe enough in the gavincoin to want to buy it for .75 bitcoins each.
BingoBoingo: The particular school district mentioned is disturbingly close.
assbot: Illinois Says Rule-Breaking Students Must Give Teachers Their Facebook Passwords | Motherboard ... ( http://bit.ly/1Cgsh8X )
BingoBoingo: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/illinois-says-students-have-to-give-up-facebook-passwords-or-face-prosecution
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: pity conformal isn't better known. << how so? ben_vulpes has referenced them a lot over the past two years. they are making me want to learn Go.
BingoBoingo: Well, what if they come for spider venom next?
Vexual: all these idiots taking a deal
Vexual: the hitmet sory is admissable
Vexual: seems hypocritcal with forrest gump leadeing the prosecution
scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by Bingo Boingo: http://qntra.net/2015/01/another-big-silk-road-2-0-arrest-full-complaint/
nubbins`: what next, you gonna disable right-click on the log?
Vexual: fucks the logs like ruin tho
nubbins`: kakobrekla why the hate ;/
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user Vexual to user muXne: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=Vexual&dest=muXne | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=muXne | Rated since: Sun Jun 22 00:11:14 2014
nubbins`: now there's a !rate?!
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user assbot to user muxne: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 3 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=muxne | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=muxne | Rated since: Sun Jun 22 00:11:14 2014
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user nubbins` to user muxne: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=nubbins%60&dest=muxne | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=muxne | Rated since: Sun Jun 22 00:11:14 2014
gribble: Error: I am not seeing this user on IRC. If you want information about a registered gpg user, try the 'gpg info' command instead.
Vexual: im not authed
jurov: he's regged under some other nick
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user assbot to user vexual: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=vexual | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=vexual | Rated since: never
Vexual: but the sydtem works, its good
jurov: or rather evolve one lol
Vexual: kako got fucked off with the niki minaj
nubbins`: which i think is a bit on the expensive side
felipelalli: only the very wealthy have this internet here in BR HUE.
felipelalli: with Gavin proposal, bitcoin core should be very simplified (like an "amateur" version) connected to trusted (few?) full nodes. It can work but it affects the decentralization, is that right?
jurov: two, under gavins proposal, the pruned db, would grow boundlessly too
felipelalli: One thing I have not studied deeply, but why every node need to have all the data? Okay there enough overlap, but really all data?
BingoBoingo: There's already "startups" foaming at the mouth to use the block chain as file storage.
felipelalli: Here in Brazil we still suffer with 1~5MB/s connection, depending on how the blocks increase many Brazilians and many ppl of other poor countries will be out soon.
felipelalli: but I also found too aggressive the numbers of Gavin. And why do you guys hate Gavin?
Vexual: its up to the miners, most do small blocks, so i dont see it happening soon
BingoBoingo: Theymos doesn't get to have much of an opinion, but at least he isn't gavin.
felipelalli: What do you guys think about this proposal of Theymos? http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2t2xrh/gavin_twenty_megabytes_testing_results/cnvew17
gribble: Cheech & Chong - Earache My Eye - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJW67QN24SA>; Cheech & Chong - Earache My Eye {full version-1974} - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3bN-pI5oMg>; Earache My Eye - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earache_My_Eye>
Vexual: aim for the nuts
BingoBoingo: I dunno. I think there's some value in seeing how the adults "good enough to make the show" end up failing because of Dunning Krueger.
Naphex: maybe that the next thing
Naphex: BingoBoingo: one thing i'd agree, its better with kids then with idiots lol
Naphex: i'm just watching if the lil ones loose a finger :D
BingoBoingo: Naphex: Yeah, now they hook em early
BingoBoingo: chetty: But that goes against killing it by "fixing it" you know... in the way you kill a chanpion dog's breeding value bu fixing it
nubbins`: BingoBoingo did you see the part where people found all the sources for his stolen clipart? :D
chetty: <<< reading various stuffs here on the great blockchain 'fix', I wonder whatever happened to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
assbot: MasterChef Junior Season 3 Episode 1 - The Class of 2015 - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/15ttqNM )
chetty: <BingoBoingo> Vexual: asciilifeform linked it a while back. basically able people must wear handicaps to make everyone equal.//only other solution is just kill all the handicaps
Vexual: banksa has little claim to the azalea, iggy, is part aboriginal
BingoBoingo: Or just do like the Vonnegut handicaps story
BingoBoingo: jurov: Logically, but they's prefer just gouging eyes to prevent looking
jurov: ha. only trannies shall cast a look upon the beautiful visages of strong and independent womyn!!!1
jurov: Only womyn should be allowed to `look`. [Cishet male](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender) nerds should not be allowed to use their oppressive gaze upon the beautiful visages of strong and independent womyn. 1 in 4 women are [psychologically raped by visual contact](http://www.umich.edu/~mrev/issues/Vol_10_No_6.pdf) in their lifetime when walking down the street.
punkman: " if a single ls doesn't use up at least 50% of installed RAM then it is condoning the toxic culture of fat shaming."
assbot: Re-instated a feminist .gitignore · 743e3c0 · The-Feminist-Software-Foundation/ToleranUX · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/15ts4Tb )
jurov: https://github.com/The-Feminist-Software-Foundation/ToleranUX/commit/743e3c00b26a3d6f30752a8dfb03a68fdf298699
Vexual: lathe fail
Vexual: is that supposed to ba a table leg? wehre sthe table?
Vexual: whats the wood guy?
nubbins`: so the wood guy is found to have been using stolen artwork for his engravings
Vexual: rio then?
felipelalli: Vexual: 80% don't know what bitcoin is and 90% of the remaining 20% think it is a scam. Is that your question?
Vexual: i fthey start doing pixies in trees silk road 17 will be out of business