asciilifeform: if it all comes from the net - sure
asciilifeform: the cost of 1 petabyte of pipe exceeds the cost of the drive many times over << lol, wai, wat ???
mircea_popescu: but the notion that mining will still work no matter how badly the incentive structure gets ruined, because somehow mining is a god given gift / universal service obligation of nature to man doesn't.
mircea_popescu: somehow the idea that you can get "just as good food and service" no matter how cheap a restaurant meal gets, like say a cent, or 1/1000th of a cent, is directly stupid to people.
mircea_popescu: and that doesn't actually even begin to address the (unrelated) problem with "infinite blocks", which is market destruction out and out.
mircea_popescu: davout: justusranvier: in your article you shouldn't be reasoning on the cost of including a transaction in a block as (cost of one block / number of transactions) but you should reason on the marginal cost of adding a transaction to an already existing block that i'm currently mining << quite
mircea_popescu: davout: MAH HARICUT IS SIKRIT BZNS << honestly i had no idea it's a haircut. i had imagined it's simply whatever's left once the neighbours are done cutting their hedges.
mircea_popescu: and by the time it's out of cycles, that drive has seen petabytes worth of traffic. the cost of 1 petabyte of pipe exceeds the cost of the drive many times over
kakobrekla: cosumer grade ssd. .. the controller will die first.
STRML: which is why they sell server SSDs for a higher price.
asciilifeform: mats: the only reliable heuristic i know of is that a large proportion of null blocks will prolong, somewhat, the life of the device
mircea_popescu: ahahaha wait, wait. so gavin actually sprouted the ninjashogun line re b-a "conversation quality" ?!
BingoBoingo: davout: This one differs in quantcast showing EVERYONE the visitors who happen to load quantcast junk while visiting your page
asciilifeform: mats: there is generally a 'write-levelling' microcontroller in there, that tries to 'spread the pain'
davout: BingoBoingo: is that a different flavour of the same thing or is that fundamentally different?
assbot: Today in Silk Road proceedings, prosecution showed that the Dread Pirate Roberts private PGP key was saved on Ulbricht's computer.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes: i can't spot *every* scam << o wow, do we get the sad, blood splattered, tear imbibed story of it ?
BingoBoingo: davout: Qntra doesn't have google anal-y-tics either
mircea_popescu: where are the retarded bois going to mix cvasi azure with moss green and gold!
davout: kakobrekla: this looks like a dump of a php array, sort if dictionary, or maybe an array, depending on the amounts of "="
mircea_popescu: Adlai there are jsons. i am thinking about putting a job up for site-ification of those outputs.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: spur of the moment.
xanthyos: is the price of bitcoin moving up today a response to gavin being dissed in assets?
assbot: Successfully added a rating of -1 for gavinandresen with note: with note: pathetic usg muppet. tirelessly schemes to zimbabweize bitcoin in the name of 'inclusion.'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: Pierre_Rochard: there is nothing, and good reason to think there cannot be, anything which even rises to the level of an ersatz. << in economics, substitute is a functional substitute not a logical substitute. in this sense, your feet are a substitute for a train.
asciilifeform: !rate gavinandresen -1 with note: pathetic usg muppet. tirelessly schemes to zimbabweize bitcoin in the name of 'inclusion.'
mircea_popescu: like you know, if bread in your african village is 5 dollars a loaf, and there's cake at 2 cents, you won't buy any cake.
mircea_popescu: Pierre_Rochard: not to mention, the transaction fee _today_ is $0.02. Where is every man woman and child? Why are they not taking advantage of this amazing opportunity?? << because, the argument goes, they're so farsighted into the future, this children of the paycheck loan, these african seasonal hunters, that the POTENTIAL of it costing maybe more tomorrow perhaps is inhibiting them.
assbot: Successfully added a rating of -5 for gavinandresen with note: okey dokey, we have a fundamental difference of opinion on where the project should go.
mircea_popescu: but in point of fact the "monetary pholgiston" so to call the idealised thing is very poorly understood.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this re: the merge-mining thing ?
mircea_popescu: Pierre_Rochard for each other you mean ?
mircea_popescu: Pierre_Rochard you know, the "say the word, nodes ready, miners ready within a recompile" messages i got so far and that keep piling in...
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Well, maybe he accidentally invented it cleaning. I mean bleach disinfects and ETOH disinfects. Maybe he really wanted to get his piss dribblings off of the bathroom tile?
mircea_popescu: to some degree the demand for gold was elastic, and this is trivially proven by the fact that while industrial revolution europe used gold, china opf the time used silver.
Pierre_Rochard: mircea_popescu: I agree, the only model is what actually ends up happening. I think the miners will get a taste for that inelasticity and jealously defend it. I think Gavin & co fear that more than anything else
asciilifeform: i, for one, would rather like to see the machine-gun taken away from the baby, and only then contemplate military strategy
mircea_popescu: (discounting, of course, frustrated nobodies a la adam back, who are so cocksure they imagine they invented clorophorm)
mircea_popescu: i don't know anyone that seriously thinks they have a model on it
Pierre_Rochard: mircea_popescu: because I think the tx fee is inelastic to the point that it’s doubtful the limit will ever be raised
BingoBoingo: "The arrest of Mr. Farrell is proof that federal law enforcement continues its efforts to root out those who subvert the Internet to set up black markets for illegal goods." << STFU
mircea_popescu: I dont want the developers setting it every two months, but I dont see a way to make fee revenue per block drive it (because the real-world bitcoin exchange rate is so variable) << this is particularly fucking stupid
BingoBoingo: Oh, and CoinDesk finally got to a story on the arrest, but they instead cover the FBI Press Release.
mircea_popescu: uh this log. so yesterday^H^H^H^ earlier today ben_vulpes is all like "god i love you guys". then i get all "wtf is this derp thinking, giving usgavin room to pretend for ?" and next line in log, sure enough...
mircea_popescu: anyway, ftr, there's nothing at all in this gavin thing. so he came in, derped about nothing in particular, found his way out. at least a dozen random noobs/spammers performed just as well.
mircea_popescu: b) the spammy link you replaced it with isn't even local. or useful.
mircea_popescu: a) It's not nice to snip the source link - if you thought the guy;s work is good enough to use, think the guy is good enough to credit ;
kakobrekla: mats pretty much, and given the number of able people here, it will never get done
BingoBoingo: Oh a qntra submission to /. got accepted, but in linksnipped form, Instead of the qntra story they link spamm-mysanantonio.com which isn't even remotely local to the fucking arrest!
mircea_popescu: kinda hoping that the by-default gossipd keystore system may be enough
mats: themes of #b-a: rebuild EVERYTHING
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla: i noticed when i was coding that keyservers tend to go down a lot << this is true, and has been for a while. pgp keyservers like the weakest link in the assets system currently.
mircea_popescu: anyway, i figure if someone goes to the trouble of getting a cloak they prolly care about it.
mircea_popescu: which is fundamentally why they gotta keep quiet, for that matter.
mircea_popescu: that'd be yet another difference between me and (bpay / coinbase / derp.* etc) : not only i make money and they make burn rate, but when i speak i speak from atop a position of significant power. they speak out of their ass, pretty much,not having an iota of actual influence either way.
mircea_popescu: mpex is not regulated by the nyse, or in general by the us. expectations to the contrary will result in bruised expectators.
mircea_popescu: mike_c: i suppose his point is along the lines of "mpex controls the coins it is holding, but account holders own them". << quite a weak point.
BingoBoingo: Ah looking for that video link I ran into this classic on the only Bitcoin adoption that matters http://trilema.com/2012/bribes-in-bitcoins/
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://pastebin.com/aLENimd7 << there you go, pretty much complete guy's last week.
assbot: Fear and Loathing in Your Mother pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1yI9GBZ )
BingoBoingo: Trilema movie night http://trilema.com/2012/fear-and-loathing-in-your-mother/
mircea_popescu: lemme find the thing brb
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he was physically there.
BingoBoingo: The video and Nefario rambling is somewhere
mircea_popescu: ne1 else recall the glbse conference where nefario explained all about how he's immune to stuff two weeks before closing down ?
mircea_popescu: dub actually was there iirc
mircea_popescu: now that guy doesn't know how to erase his name from the mess.
Adlai: "come make us able to sponsor the next one too!("
Adlai: BingoBoingo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Why do you have to highlight the shortcut that was almost certainly taken
ben_vulpes: it's allll part of the act.
mircea_popescu: yeah derp claimed he can't come because he's got a lunch engagement, then found out that so do i so he suddenly could.
ben_vulpes: <BingoBoingo> thestringpuller: Well ESPN says they paid ESPN in BTC << i thought it was a promise to pay in btc, the paper for which ESPN liquidated immediately
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: pity conformal isn't better known. << how so? << they did all sorts of things for "the community" to be able to use their own stuff, which the community isn't doing because... well i guess more because lazy and stupid, but hey.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it goes very well with the usg approach to target selection. which is the 'texas sharpshooter' algorithm.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> asciilifeform the 2nd is particularly pernicious because of the "good enough" approach. "what do you mean bitcoin transactions can't be used to identify anything ? here's a list of derps we know for a fact, they're 50% of the blockchain spam" << Reasons to never use a public Electrum server for people wondering about "Lite" wallets.
mircea_popescu: pseudoarguments of the attorney ilk.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the 2nd is particularly pernicious because of the "good enough" approach. "what do you mean bitcoin transactions can't be used to identify anything ? here's a list of derps we know for a fact, they're 50% of the blockchain spam"
mircea_popescu: Adlai the exchange has no margin in an indefensible market and makes no money.
asciilifeform: 'changetip,' as i understand, answers two usg desires: 1) injection of tard armies into bitcoin, fodder for gavinization 2) the old, tired 'let's put some names/faces/palmprints/arsebook histories on as many btc addrs as we can'
asciilifeform: incidentally, there was a time when usg did the 'strategic vc' thing more or less above-board. see 'in-q-tel.'
mircea_popescu: at this point listing them on mpex should yield what, 25% of equity. because it'd definitely increase their market value by that much.
kakobrekla: ah yes they plunked 10mio to buttstamp.
Adlai: but when you withdraw bitcoin, on the bitcoin network, you have to specify the amount in dollars
mircea_popescu: so then eta is clue / 0
Adlai: they require you to price withdrawals in dollars
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: find you and what? they get to eat out of a fixed trough, no faster than they are fed.
Adlai: yes, but keeping an idea secret doesn't prevent somebody else from executing it better than you, while you sit around trying to get people to invest in something you haven't explained to them
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: one of the reasons i took the sweat to set up a civilized routing stack at home
mircea_popescu: Adlai some ideas are more worthless than others.
Adlai: my main problem with "mr spam" was the high stock he placed in ideas
mircea_popescu: i have what the dorks refer to "Fat pipes" on a number of nodes and they still get saturated on occasion.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: them.
mircea_popescu: felipelalli: but I also found too aggressive the numbers of Gavin. And why do you guys hate Gavin? << you will benefit from reading the logs, also googling "site:trilema.com gavin" might help.
assbot: The Rolling Stones - You Can't Always Get What You Want [Official] - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1yI8fDp )
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: these being the two basic schools of thought on how to run a 20th c. state.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: in the mid-20th-c., world split into 'prison' and 'psych ward' camps. 'hard' and 'soft'-power, respectively.
mircea_popescu: chetty: <<< reading various stuffs here on the great blockchain 'fix', I wonder whatever happened to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" <<< "everyone wants to be a developer" happened. and "everyone should get what they want" also happened.
thestringpuller: At least the russians were willing to be SOMEWHAT honest.
mircea_popescu: the theoretical theory was that "Bitcoin is all nerds anyway" and so any old junk should stick.,
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: i was telling a friend the other night that the CIA/FBI acts as the USG mafia, but won't admit to being the mafia. Whereas KGB/Soviets said, "Yea we're the mob, watcha gonna do about it?"
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: this gives me the impression that...maybe this is bitpay's handlers driving this nonsense
mircea_popescu: point in case of this matter, once gavin is questioned as to why exactly he wants to do x, and he immediately and seamlessly moves into "oh, so what's the right value, so you want to do X' ??" it is clear that he is not in fact interested in what he claims to discuss
mircea_popescu: they're trivially identified in the field by the shockingly unhelpful nature of their helpings,
Adlai: whereas my stance was that not pitching bitcoin filters out the people to whom bitcoin needs to be pitched
mircea_popescu: that they're "investing", that they wiosh to "drive adoption", that generally they're only trying to help.
Adlai had a big tussle with a business associate about his (the other guy's) emphasis on "pitching bitcoin" to investors
mircea_popescu: davout there's a large chunk of facetious asshats who hate bitcoin just as much as the next guy whose unearned position it threatens. but they figure they get further with a spoonfull of honey than a barrel of vinegar, and so will make this sort of claim.
davout: thestringpuller: yes it does, i have heard that kind of bullshit first hand
devthedev: BingoBoingo: What is this about the head of 'Muricas other socialist party opening session with an Islamic prayer? << It makes my stomach turn
thestringpuller: ah so theory holds some water.
davout: thestringpuller: i have already heard that from potential investors, these were shown the door
thestringpuller: davout: yea. p. much. Then VC comes in and says, "You may have this much btc on book at anytime" or I guess CFO or whatever. I dunno, I'm not an accountant.
davout: mircea_popescu thestringpuller the accountant can account for the value paymium's coin in whatever fiat he fancies, he can go fuck himself before we sell it
thestringpuller: there's a lot wrong there, but my theory is VC's won't let them hold btc like other btc companies
mircea_popescu: assbot: The-Feminist-Software-Foundation/ToleranUX << lmao this shit better be parodic.
thestringpuller: as all their liabilities are covered as fiat, so I assume assets are handled sameway
thestringpuller: BingoBoingo: yea but from what I can gather (i am no expert), would be written as an expense
mircea_popescu: "well fuck you then ? not like i care eiter way ?"
mircea_popescu: not a matter of chumpness tho. suppose dude rings your doorbell dressed as a car mechanic. "yes ?" "hello i'm the pizza delivery". "you don't seem to have any pizza ?" "ha-ha! fooled you! i'm only SAYING im pizza delivery"
thestringpuller: i don't think they are allowed to hold btc as assets, i dunno.
thestringpuller: BingoBoingo: well they don't burn btc really...
asciilifeform: VCs have been doing appalingly poorly << this assumes that their objective was to do well in the usual, commercial sense
mircea_popescu: there's nothing wrong with humility if pride just means you lose money.
BingoBoingo: Well generally they tend to raise dollars and burn them. Or in BitPay's case start with Bitcoins and then burn those.
mircea_popescu: mostly because bitcoin does not reward their "get big fast" pump and dump scam.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, VCs have been doing appalingly poorly in bitcoin.
asciilifeform: one of the alchemical powers of idiots is the ability to transform theoretically good points into, well, this
mircea_popescu: nubbins`: lifted from deviant art and shutterstock << are the da starving artists going to get a cut of the 14k ?
mircea_popescu: punkman: their demos are stupid though << yeah they had no idea how to sell that thing.
BingoBoingo: devthedev: What is this about the head of 'Muricas other socialist party opening session with an Islamic prayer?
BingoBoingo: !up devthedev
mircea_popescu: davout bicopulation is what that deer in the middle's doin'. ain't me!
assbot: Logged on 21-01-2015 01:56:34; mircea_popescu: right about at the time they tarred and feathered that asinine idiot who said they should wash hands
thestringpuller: cause they are never in same room at same time
thestringpuller: i figured it out! gavinandresen and mircea_popescu are the same person!
mircea_popescu: punkman: "For one thing, doctors were upset because Semmelweis' hypothesis << yup that's a recurring topic here.
davout: thestringpuller: sinatra cover by biréli lagrène
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: you missed all the fun
davout: thestringpuller: i'm grabbing you something
davout: thestringpuller: i'm not really such an electronic music guy
davout: also you can't really have the market price according to supply and demand when the supply's pretty much infinite for all practical purposes
davout: justusranvier: in your article you shouldn't be reasoning on the cost of including a transaction in a block as (cost of one block / number of transactions) but you should reason on the marginal cost of adding a transaction to an already existing block that i'm currently mining
thestringpuller: davout: do you like the french electronic music scene?
assbot: And Gavin moves on to the dark side. The Bitcoin project is officially hijacked pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1yI2YM2 )
BingoBoingo: For people catching up on mircea_popescu gavin drama http://trilema.com/2013/and-gavin-moves-on-to-the-dark-side-the-bitcoin-project-is-officially-hijacked/
davout: thestringpuller: i really like eventmachine
davout: i kind of dislike rails, too fat, too clunky, unless you have something that really fits the rest paradigm
ben_vulpes: lol well rubby haircuts are normally done by the hair wearer
ben_vulpes: davout: well i've written java, i've written ruby, and i've had extensive interactions with the relevant "communities" (although only my local java "community")
davout: thestringpuller: what framework are you using?
davout: STRML: dsl's get much much easier when you're proficient with the language
davout: thestringpuller: i don't really know python so i can't really comment
STRML: I'm sure they were meant to make things easier but it never quite ends up that way
thestringpuller: it's easier to debug, but so is python in the same context I guess?
STRML: all the confusion and unfamiliarity of a new programming language without any of the benefits
STRML: I echo your frustration with ruby. It's a nightmare trying to figure out some obscure part of the capistrano or chef DSLs
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i also unload the dishwasher in the morning and turn the lights off at night.
davout: thestringpuller: ruby can be extremly confusing, especially if you use some weird proprietary dsl someone forces on you
davout: thestringpuller: what are you using it for?
davout: thestringpuller: i don't know man, who am i to know your personal tastes? :-)
ben_vulpes: i derp through apple's code signing shitshow so that they can focus on writing moar softs
kakobrekla: if he doesnt survive otherwise
kakobrekla: well hence the question
ben_vulpes: davout: oh yeah don't use the layout engine
thestringpuller: which of the two*
davout: "you want to track your code on git and code with other folks? fuck you, i'll make this massive xml piece of shit completely unmergeable"
davout: "you want to organize your code with folders? fuck you, i'll store them randomly and index them in some massive xml turd"
davout: thestringpuller: s/gcc/llvm/
davout: kakobrekla: the IDE where folders don't actually create folders on disk
asciilifeform: they ditched gcc.
diametric: for some real reason it wasn't importing it for the first time correctly, kakobrekla had to manually import it
asciilifeform: when they do - curtain call.
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2014 13:57:29; asciilifeform: g: 'show me the real budget.' a: 'you're asking too much. that's off limits to you.'
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2014 13:57:10; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: remember the story about gorby and andropov?
asciilifeform: beyond us to produce a dual system of astronomy? The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them. Do you suppose our mathematicians are unequal to that? Have you forgotten doublethink?' (1984)
asciilifeform: chetty: ''Winston made another convulsive movement. This time he did not say anything. O'Brien continued as though answering a spoken objection: 'For certain purposes, of course, that is not true. When we navigate the ocean, or when we predict an eclipse, we often find it convenient to assume that the earth goes round the sun and that the stars are millions upon millions of kilometres away. But what of it? Do you suppose it is
chetty: (all you have to do to make such a law work is send the gasenwagen for anybody that knows any maths)
asciilifeform: but if a skateboard with a missing wheel is a substitute for a 'boeing' - then, sure.
asciilifeform: Pierre_Rochard: there is nothing, and good reason to think there cannot be, anything which even rises to the level of an ersatz.
Pierre_Rochard: asciilifeform: preaching to the choir, but a “substitute” in the economic term is the opposite of a “complement”, not something you necessarily consider on equal footing
asciilifeform: Pierre_Rochard: there are sound mathematical reasons to believe that there cannot be a stable substitute in any meaningful sense.
asciilifeform: davout: the idea that there is, was, or can be, an actual substitute (what is the substitute for electrical current ?) - ...
davout: the idea that there exists somewhere a magical bitcoin alternative, suffering from none of its shortcomings, towards which everyone would flow is retarded
Pierre_Rochard: asciilifeform: why did he not announce that last night? why does he hate the middle class so?
asciilifeform: Pierre_Rochard: because mr. obama has not handed each of them three quintillion bitcoins yet.
Pierre_Rochard: not to mention, the transaction fee _today_ is $0.02. Where is every man woman and child? Why are they not taking advantage of this amazing opportunity??
asciilifeform: not necessarily on account of being stupid. a flunkie, lying from a position of desperation (our friend) - is overcome by anxiety, which inhibits creativity. on the other hand, an official liar, lying from a position of brute strength (e.g., keith alexander), is hobbled by complacency.
asciilifeform: folks who live by weaseling, smokescreen, evasion, tend to have just a few tricks up their sleeves.
asciilifeform: even though we did not get to see this, it is not difficult to imagine how the conversation may have went.
Pierre_Rochard: well if he disagrees on the premise that being fort knox is more important than being a rural walmart then there’s not much to discuss
kakobrekla: not in the quality sense but quantity.
asciilifeform: it is as if all tentacles of the beast spoke with a single voice.
asciilifeform: hence ben_vulpes's astute observation, being that the spirit of mr. spam walked again from the grave
Pierre_Rochard: Bitcoin is a ferrari being sold for $10. Increasing the price to $100 will not deter buyers
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen is clearly unfamiliar with the pricing model of every luxury good ever. < this
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: i find it odd that you are interested in inclusion on the user end (transactions) but not the node end
lobbes: all you have to do is look at bitcointalk.org to see that getting clueless people involved for the sake of 'because' just leads to more scamming, and more ignorance
Pierre_Rochard: so it’s immaterial, yet that transaction fee revenue is super-important for the customers to know, long term this is a viable enterprise that can sustain itself
gavinandresen: Ok, if y’all are interested in keeping Bitcoin an exclusive little club… then okey dokey, we have a fundamental difference of opinion on where the project should go.
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen is clearly unfamiliar with the pricing model of every luxury good ever.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I agree, but in this case I think Bitcoin’s competitive advantage is 100x, and transaction fees are a relatively small part of that, so if they were $0.50 instead of $0.05, adoption rate would decrease by let’s say 0.01%.
xanthyos: the bible warned us about you gavinandresen
asciilifeform: Were going to raise prices until we start losing customers << what do you suppose the business model of 'aston martin' is ?
ben_vulpes: <gavinandresen> asciilifeform: I don’t want to rescue anybody, I want as many people as possible to Get the Bitcoin Religion! Can I have an AMEN? << good fucking god
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: in your mind, it is a religion? as in, the gods whispered to you that you must bring as many unbelievers as possible into the fold ?
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: I think if you went to a VC with a business plan of “We’re going to raise prices until we start losing customers” the VC would tell you that is a huge mistake if you’re a high-growth thing-a-ma-bob
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: right, that goes back to bitcoin’s adoption relative to other altcoins. when we see a divergence then we know there’s substitution going on
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: I don’t want to rescue anybody, I want as many people as possible to Get the Bitcoin Religion! Can I have an AMEN?
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: another question: why precisely do you wish to rescue those who might be tempted to use 'substitutes' for bitcoin ?
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: that’s actually a very interesting question because we currently live in a world where miner liabilities are in fiat prices, but in the future that may not be the case.
asciilifeform: the whole concept of a 'sidechain' is an elaborate chumpatron.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: one where there is no competition among transactors to get into a block
asciilifeform: and by being crafted to give the opposite impression.
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: it is fraudulent by virtue of not being the one and only genuine bitcoin. the schelling point.