gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: have you grokked the "why" of lisp yet?
assbot: Re: Representing code as XML: the Flare Programming Language - Naggum cll archive ... ( http://bit.ly/18WGOfl )
mircea_popescu: "Even when there were still plenty of Neanderthals, it must have sucked to be one. The Cro-Magnons would have been constantly coming over and beating you up and stealing your food."
mircea_popescu: how the fuck can he write this.
mircea_popescu: there's always a fine excuse.
asciilifeform: perhaps will say to the camera
asciilifeform: (what string? ask gerald davis or any of the rest, i've no idea)
mircea_popescu: (which incidentally makes me curious, if you get usg advance on promise to deliver and then fail to deliver, do you hjave to repay ? or go to jail ?)
mircea_popescu: and defo more than the lousy one year salary gavin got for attempting (and failing) some
mircea_popescu: they'll sell for way more than the gpg "dev" got to sell out the thing she doesn't represent.
mircea_popescu: and no doubt once they sell to facebook / washington mutual / obama's pubic hair,
asciilifeform: which laughs all the way to the bank whether man or monkey sits down and pens prospectus / collects.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re: kickstarter article: ks is straight from the encyclopaedia of chumpatronic circuits, chapter 'make use of chumps directly in the machines control system.' as in 'multi-level' crapolade of every variety.
asciilifeform: consult the literature.
asciilifeform: exciting when done the proper way
asciilifeform: don't be the fellow who follows his 'gps' receiver off the derelict bridge and into the sea.
phillipsjk: The source does not have a graphical summary. You can think of it as a "map". Maps are known to be wrong on occasion.
asciilifeform: knowing what we know about the folks of the tardphorum, it is worth the while of anyone who actually gives a flying fuck, to consult the source.
phillipsjk: See, there is some gold buried in the bitcointalk forum. Sifting through all the noise is a pain sometimes though.
assbot: On-the-wire byte map & OP_CHECKSIG diagram (knowledge donation!) ... ( http://bit.ly/1zYsL54 )
phillipsjk: etotheipi: "If you want to hash a Tx for ECDSA signing/verification, that's a whole different story (although, the link above also shows how to do that, too)." link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=29416.0
phillipsjk: "As explained by Gavin Andersen on the forum - in order to calculate the ID hash of the Tx that is used in the Merkle Tree, one needs to SHA hash the whole Tx message as defined in the Protocol Specification wiki page twice." http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/2177/how-to-calculate-a-hash-of-a-tx (second answer links to a diagram done by the Armory developer)
phillipsjk: I don't understand the complete implementation details, but how do they how to convert the signatures without messing with the merkle tree? Have a table of weird transactions?
phillipsjk: "The requirement to have signatures that comply strictly with DER has been enforced as a relay policy by the reference client since v0.8.0, and very few transactions violating it are being added to the chain as of January 2015. In addition, every non-compliant signature can trivially be converted into a compliant one, so there is no loss of functionality by this requirement."
asciilifeform remembers this brouhaha, did not verify the claim personally
asciilifeform: 'Until recently, OpenSSL's releases would accept various deviations from the DER standard and accept signatures as valid. When this changed in OpenSSL 1.0.0p and 1.0.1k, it made some nodes reject the chain.' - from the phoundation document linked above.
phillipsjk: A careful reading of the logs shows that mod6 was careful to use the pre-f revision of debian SSL.
mircea_popescu: signatures are a major vulnerability. mostly because nobody in fucking crypto except for us understands the actual constraints.
asciilifeform points out that the pictured scene is not his house. he only wishes it were.
asciilifeform: found video subbing tool, and though that there was a list of things i was once going to sub, but for some reason found in my notes only this.
asciilifeform: http://www.universalsubtitles.org/en/videos/rcQaef4yYJyn/info/moia-masterskaia << ben_vulpes, BingoBoingo, others << my attempt at subtitling a certain memorable photo brag (not mine!). to enable the subs, click CC on bottom left hand corner (not the usual bottom right on youtube.)
mircea_popescu: hey anyone remembers these bits i quoted some weeks ago about this woman that did a kickstarter-like thing for her oyung adult novel
assbot: Logged on 24-02-2014 18:09:12; mircea_popescu: "So above you see pankkake continue to smear the company ActiveMining (by calling it an investment scam, associating it with the known 'LabCoin scam', saying the CEO is facing jail and accusing me of being a scammer (!)) after Ken publicly refused to pay pankkake's blackmail money demand."
mircea_popescu: ironically, irc was a big thing when i was a teen. then pretty much forgot about it. only rediscovered it in a frustrated attempt to make sense of the ever mounting idiocy that bitcoin appeared to be.
mircea_popescu: i think that's exactly what they're going for :)
Guest70720: i'm still trying to understand how this irc thing works. I've been lurking for quite a while but mostly on the blogs and forums
asciilifeform: the simplest possible chumpamatic.
assbot: Looking for investment in my new startup "Facade". The model is simple, I take your money, do what I want for a year then you write it off
asciilifeform: but still end up wondering in what circus the dwarf and giant met.
mircea_popescu: a) she didn't choose ; b) you don't actually see a "that" there.
asciilifeform: i would have guessed that this is to be a 'cliff's notes' (american book series of ready-baked crib sheets for f-students) for sicp, but the latter is no longer (afaik) assigned in school
asciilifeform: see also the original 'modest proposal' by swift.
mircea_popescu: " This of course adds the complexity to Clojure. The question is does this acquired complexity worth it? I think it does. You gain a platform that is being poured thousands of man-hours every year into, you gain a GC that is being optimized for you, you gain the crossplatformity basically for free. You may call that opportunism but it works after all."
asciilifeform: it's sorta the basic point of my site in a sentence.
mircea_popescu: "Engineering complexity is a form of environmental pollution; perhaps even the worst form of all, because it may yet turn out to be the case that it can kill whole civilizations, not just individual people."
mircea_popescu: "in a sense, Windows is a result of the way C++ builds environments, like Unix is a result of how C does it." << and in this sense... their merging would be expected at about the time "most people" couldn't if press explain exactly what the ++ stand for.
asciilifeform: the end opposite from mouth
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform which part's the bell ?
mircea_popescu: note that the guy wasn't actually making code changes
asciilifeform: give a physical explanation, in one sentence, of why a trumpet/tube/microwave horn needs the 'bell'.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform laugh if you will, but if pressed to come up with a definition of humanity, at least as an ideal object, the most sound i can think up is, "that collection of objects which construct relations which degrade gracefully"
mircea_popescu: 00 times more than it did in 1950, when managers scribbled unreadable notes and very quick and efficient typists corrected their spelling, grammer, and language and adhered to "company style" effortlessly."
mircea_popescu: ce tag, a secretary does not produce any more measurable output now than in 1950 -- in fact, the evidence suggests that obtaining _half_ the productivity of a 1950's secretary in 1997 is a major feat. the fact that managers write their own reports at down to 1/10th of the speed of a secretary that used to be paid 1/10th of their salary also means that the time spent producing a letter or a report can cost as much as 1
mircea_popescu: "according to a report in the Economist earlier this year, the cost of producing any piece of business communication dropped along with advances in computers from 1950 through 1980. from 1985 through 1995, it rose sharply enough to consume all earnings made since 1950. it is significantly more expensive to produce a business letter in 1997 than it was in 1950. despite many technological advances with a very high pri
asciilifeform: what was the 'simple man with simple programs' doing in comp.lang.lisp ?
mircea_popescu: neither is good news.
mircea_popescu: there's two kinds of socialist minds in this world, the sort that expect all people to be equally stupid, and the sort that expect all people to be equally smart.
mircea_popescu: at which point does the use of "seperate" in the original text suggest to him that he's dealing with a simple man with simple problems and he'd better stick to simpler solutions ?
mircea_popescu: (note that this does not mean the same as "was ever married" in the slightest, which is the point)
mircea_popescu: which of course in a different time would beg the snide question if orwell were ever married.
mircea_popescu: (to dampen that : fry likes wilde more because wilde was a fag than because wilde was good. which he wasn't THAT good. but nevertheless, THIS point is sound in this context)
mircea_popescu: also obligatory, wilde. "i will leave it to you to fix the ifs and thens and wherefores"
mircea_popescu: but the reason itdoes is specifically - that recipient is not computer.
mircea_popescu: BUT if the computer you are talking to is equally redundant and badly built, you are either an idiot or very very unfortunate.
mircea_popescu: the great utility of the scribe / secretary, rather than the tits, is that natural languages have piles and layers of redundancy built in. a good note taker is a cheap way to gain 50 to 100% speed and a decent 10 to 25% quality for very little cost.
mircea_popescu: so i agree that talking to computers is loathsome. however, i often use note takers when speaking rather than writing myslelf. the latter explains the former.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: either works
mircea_popescu: hm, actually, woul you prefer i comment there ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re the "Have you ever actually used a speech recognition system to enter serious lengths of text? " line in your comments : i agree talking to a comp
mod6: im looking forward to that discussion, as well as the BDB removal discussion
mod6: <+asciilifeform> back to the boojum - do i misunderstand or did the thing unwedge when moved to 'modern' openssl ? << yup, that's what unwedged it. move from openssl v0.9.8o -> openssl 1.0.1g
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform seems to be the report.
asciilifeform: back to the boojum - do i misunderstand or did the thing unwedge when moved to 'modern' openssl ?
mod6: So, yeah, there are a number of topics that we look forward to discussing with you about future of the R.I. We'll get there. :]
mircea_popescu: like, the node, which is an always on demon, and then various things connecting to it : such as other nodes, on the eth card, or the user, always on the specifically delegated interface, etc ?
mircea_popescu: "do not tell me of what seems acceptable as an idea to pudgy people driving on the interstate towards connecticut. i do not care."
mod6: asciilifeform: One school of thought is to take the wallet, and place it outside of the R.I. as a seperate entity.
mircea_popescu: " My standard of comparison for any technology will always be everything previously achieved by mankind, rather than what is available on the market today."
mircea_popescu: the reference implementation ?
asciilifeform: therealbitcoin.
asciilifeform: why the wallet is still in ?
asciilifeform: is there a particular reason
asciilifeform: !s the spittoon
mircea_popescu: why the fuck we're importing from a different project - and THAT one in particular is anyone's guess
mircea_popescu: mod6 this issue is critical because it's easily the squishiest point of the whole protocol.
asciilifeform: mod6: simple algorithm: comment out the #includes
mod6: <+asciilifeform> roll in the five or six pieces that are actually used. << I want to collect some more data on this issue. But I'm open to discussing this option going forward.
mircea_popescu: such is the fate of right wing movements tho, bereft of means and resources as they are.
mircea_popescu: i used to like dropping in on them now and again.
mircea_popescu: is how that spammer guy killed qntra and then bitcoin-assets.
mircea_popescu: the one truely thing i deeply regret from 2014
assbot: Logged on 30-08-2014 22:56:02; asciilifeform: 'the only 'intuitive' interface is the tit - everything after that is learned.'
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-08-2014#816658 << actually this is pretty good a point, seeing how the tit actually goes INTO the face.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> this is pretty massive if true. mod6 do you feel like testing for this insanity specifically ? << yes, im sure that i'll dig into this further
assbot: On why 0.10's release notes say "we have reason to believe that libsecp256k1 is better tested and more thoroughly reviewed than the implementation in OpenSSL" : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1xEmxjb )
asciilifeform: dove in once or twice to fish out the orphanage burn thing
asciilifeform: that i was unable to make myself read the whole thing
mircea_popescu: you recall, the one that's so well tested apud gmaxwel
mircea_popescu: course also what the wunderbar vc boys are trying to do with their NOVEL inmplemetnation
mod6: and now wedges for some crazy reason. now I'm gonna upgrade to 1.0.1g there as well (just upgraded my deb6 on vbox vm to start with) and try to pass the wedge too.
asciilifeform: we snip out the #include <openssl/......>
mod6: so thats ^^^ my version of openssl on my aws instance, and i've sync'd successfully at lesat a dozen times in the last 4 months on there
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can you be specific rather than rhetoric ? i dun follow
asciilifeform: so, for example, we can see what they are.
asciilifeform: roll in the five or six pieces that are actually used.
asciilifeform: let's rip out openssl in the simplest way
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i am willing to bet there are over 1kbugs in this thing. all distinct.
mircea_popescu: might be a bug specific to the 9.8o but then that doesn't explain how all the others worked
asciilifeform did not test with anything other than the shortly post-heartbleed turdball specified in 'portatronic'
mod6: which was from the orig debian 6 iirc
mircea_popescu: any idea what the hook was ?
mircea_popescu: mod6 took the whole day ?!
mircea_popescu: "psycd is currently being refactored into a GNUnet service to run secushare on. The former psycd code is quite interesting, but currently unmaintained. "
asciilifeform: just have the thing load a straight linux kernel
asciilifeform: imho in the final turd we nuke it
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/gerald-davis-is-wrong-heres-why/#comment-112033 << and the perennial question.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i had some toast earlier, the toaster:~$ said :L)
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron for the sake of sanity, can you proceed closer to asciilifeform's original ?
asciilifeform built the uboot from public sources
mircea_popescu: a shortcut through the mud
asciilifeform: i used the disk image from it
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there was a public set of instructions for installing 'archlinux' for arm onto 'pogo'.
mircea_popescu: what is the arch install and how did it end up imported in here ?
asciilifeform: other than that, one can take a snapshot: dd if=/dev/mtd0 of=turd.bin
mircea_popescu: any way to check fw vers ? other than popping unit ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the cl rewrite of emacs, 'climacs', was almost usable
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: trinque: how do you propose to have the browser end run cl? << haha this i wanna see. clonqueror.
asciilifeform: (yet another fs optimized for fragile 'flash')
asciilifeform: the root fs is a 'ubifs'
mircea_popescu: yeh he booted the drive. did you danielpbarron ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: uboot is resident in the 128mb eeprom
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: you installed arch to the drive and booted to it, didntcha
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but uboot is resident on the drive ?
asciilifeform: the unit i have, had to be reflashed with a modern build of this, to boot from anywhere other than the kernel and root partitions in eeprom
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: when thing powers up, it boots from the eeprom
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron "You can throw out the packaging and manual; we won't be needing those." << gotta love the justifiable pride the most serene republic's flag elates out of people.
trinque: my grandfather still gets hassled at the border for "american party" involvement back in the day
asciilifeform was actually rather surprised to be let out last time
mircea_popescu: actually i'm kinda half curious how many us based conf attendants discover at the border that the newly expanded tsa doth not agree their passport holds any value.
trinque: if I ever make it out of the gravity well I'd love to get an actual education.
asciilifeform: (incidentally, american banks learned from the 'salami' case and now do it SOP.)
trinque: mircea_popescu: hard to get taught anything if you're fighting the teacher
asciilifeform: like the bank thief who pockets rounding errors.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform possibly. in this sense, the ultimate engine/life form would be one that lives somehow off the shaving.
mircea_popescu: as 1 goes up and 2 goes down there's at some critical point after which a man is taking his voice in his hands.
asciilifeform: there was even an old sf story which posited that various microscopic physical limit phenomena result from the emulator shaving cycles in this manner.
mircea_popescu: trinque i think the concern is to be approached on two lines, empirically. line 1) what % of queries constitute powerplays and b) what % of queries result in interesting education that a noob reading logs would benefit from.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform technically speaking, the milk and water mixing IS recorded in ever yinstance.
asciilifeform: global record in the sense of every instance
mircea_popescu: there's of course a finite number of photons that saw it, but w/e man.
mircea_popescu: and global record of 1+1 was trivial. perhaps on a machine much akin to physical reality : the result of mixing milk and water is stored for everyone to see - they need but look
asciilifeform: rather than a global record of every 1+1.
asciilifeform: even the nock stack posited local caching for trivialities
asciilifeform: the last straw was the bugger 'shannonizing' my www. i wonder if there's some 'person' that this genuinely works on.
asciilifeform: their 'watercooler' conversations must be golden.
asciilifeform: i - can't be bothered.
asciilifeform: trinque: i suppose anyone here who hasn't killfiled, will learn the answer.
asciilifeform: !down the_scourge
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for the_scourge from 1 to -2 with note: dear usg, please send better clowns; the cheap ones are growing tiresome.
asciilifeform: !v assbot:asciilifeform.rate.the_scourge.-2:872c8508e60de91180b0972e6d07b54ecd8a3362dca96a9a958e64487de13a3f
asciilifeform: !rate the_scourge -2 dear usg, please send better clowns; the cheap ones are growing tiresome.
trinque: the_scourge: cya
the_scourge: i need to head off... this weekend i'm going to look into the parallella. i'm curious if a symbolics machine could be implemented in it's FPGA
asciilifeform: yes, technically - they are.
asciilifeform: or rather, this is not unlike the observation that everybody at the cemetary is there 'because' they breathed air.
the_scourge: yes, these were people who had always had it remapped
the_scourge: well i've seen a lot of gnarled old hands. all of them told me it was chording that did it
the_scourge: they are not painful
asciilifeform: what was the point?
trinque: and faster than chords because no stretch to the modifier
the_scourge: you type all the letters in your words
assbot: Logged on 30-08-2014 22:56:02; asciilifeform: 'the only 'intuitive' interface is the tit - everything after that is learned.'
the_scourge: i've noticed you don't capitalize a lot of the time
the_scourge: any time you are holding down one key and pressing another is painful. even the shift is an example of this
the_scourge: as opposed to combinations which are clearly natural. they are idiomatic so the brain groks them more, and the fingers do them easier
asciilifeform: most folks who lack the mental flexibility to relearn five or six key commands, would not benefit from emacs, and (if they are aware of its existence at all) - know it. and avoid.
trinque: that's the stuff
asciilifeform: yes, it is possible to bolt them onto emacs. but few people do.
asciilifeform: the_scourge: poor design for folks used to ibm's (yes, originally their) traditional key chords.
the_scourge: i assumed it was poor design and useless academics who'd never had to do a hard day's work in their lives. perhaps it is a shit test?
the_scourge: 'Emacs actually comes with a builting Emacs Aptitude Test. Do you remap your keyboard or the Emacs keybindings before the chords and sequences it comes with by default have wreaked havoc with your hands? If you do not do anything to make Emacs more convenient for yourself, you may not have the prerequisite aptitude to use it productive.' (naggum, who else. http://www.xach.com/na < funny, that's one of the reason i've avoided
asciilifeform: the_scourge: bullshit is not welcome in #b-a.
asciilifeform: the socket handler?
asciilifeform: the 15 lines also contain rsa?
the_scourge: you sound confident. what if i told you there was a psyc daemon implemented in 15 lines of common lisp? :)
the_scourge: speaking of greenfield, what was the reason for greenfielding a re-implementation of psycd? (assuming gossipd has already been written)
asciilifeform: if you recognize neither the words, nor where they apply here, i'm powerless to help.
the_scourge: and that search needs a d at the end ^ (for anyone following along at home)
the_scourge: "I estimate that 90-95% of the work in Plan 9 was directly or indirectly to honor externally imposed standards." < wow that is really sad... and ... is there a solution?
trinque: the_scourge: he already blogged it all
asciilifeform: it would be either a crock of shit, or book-length
asciilifeform: the_scourge: no.
the_scourge: asciilifeform: can i get a blow by blow on what historical event was this allegorical thermonuclear war?
asciilifeform: when i explain to folks why i dislike programming on available systems, i sometimes use example that it is rather like being a fellow who likes gardening, but there was a thermonuclear war not long ago, and you gotta sift the soil with sapper's spade in one hand, geiger in the other, and there won't be much sunlight to be had either.
the_scourge: no, the link to .. yah
asciilifeform: the_scourge: loads fine.
asciilifeform: it's all in the logs.
trinque grows to suspect that there is not a programming environment asciilifeform likes
the_scourge: actually i take it back, the problems here were probably not market-based, but more cultural (and lack of appropriate customers)
asciilifeform: the_scourge: in the days of rms, symbolics corp. sold machines. the cheapest started at about the cost of a single-propeller airplane.
the_scourge: just when i was starting to think esr and rms didn't have a point. maybe they did
the_scourge: what do they charge for a copy
asciilifeform: but for the original os
asciilifeform: the_scourge: that's merely a script for setting up the unofficial amd64 binary to run under a modern linux.
asciilifeform: technically symbolics had no name for their os until opengenera was put on the market.
asciilifeform: has nothing whatsoever to do with source being publicly available, or the product being distributed free of charge
asciilifeform: the_scourge: the 'open' in 'opengenera' is an archaic 1980s usg-ism. it simply refers to the fact that a product features industry-standard protocols like tcp/ip and does not require you to buy the entire universe you live in from one particular vendor.
trinque: asciilifeform: same situation as reaching out to Java in clojure then
asciilifeform: trinque: so you're actually using js. you will notice this, because the cl subset that can be thus eaten/shat is microscopic
trinque: doesn't the parenscript compiler eat cl and poop js?
asciilifeform: trinque: how do you propose to have the browser end run cl?