decimation: sometimes they sell at safeway
Adlai: the more i think about it, the more it seems that nicks are a second layer on top of the wot, provided by specific wot nodes - either a centralized nick->node mapping like assbot, or individual gossipd configs
mircea_popescu: "Consider this: In the past 10 years has the distribution you run changed significantly in what it offers over other distributions? I think you'll find the answer is largely no. I do have to give a shout out to openSUSE for the OBS, but otherwise I've used my desktop in the same exact way that I have always used it within the continuity of distribution X,Y, or Z since I started using them. Distributions simply aren't f
decimation: but not smoked, I would like to try them smoked
decimation: the 'king oskars' have two layers of little fish packed in oil
mircea_popescu: mike_c: hm. is it kosher for two nicks in the wot to have the same gpg key? << notrly. is this observable ?
asciilifeform: decimation: brand << anything from riga. but beware fakes with 'synthetic smoke'
decimation: actually a sprat is the same thing as a 'brisling'
decimation: yeah I've been there
asciilifeform: about 2x the cost of ordinary 'ethnic' grocers in wash.,d.c. area
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: while everyone knows the caveats of the 'million fly eyes', the concept of closed source os is really dead forever << agreed.
decimation: BingoBoingo: where do you find it? none of the groceries around here stock kippers
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo: More RAM makes << there's a legitimate "keep blockchain on ramdisk" thing. sadly... it won't be feasible. it's luxury.
decimation: I'm from the us
mircea_popescu: decimation is not fro mthe us ?
mircea_popescu: the former's basically fast food. salt pickles are fermented.
mircea_popescu: there's two ways to pickle : in vinegar and in salt.
decimation: asciilifeform: they sell sprats on amazon for $$$
decimation: the median usian has a strange aversion to tinned fish of all kinds
mircea_popescu: so, is the trilema server going to be closed down by the evil forces of "bitlove, llc" ? what's the crowd wisdom say ?
asciilifeform: the hardest thing to score where i live is proper sprats
mircea_popescu: ^ futurology right there.
decimation: finding proper kippers is difficult in the us
mircea_popescu: i guess you'll prolly be left out of the future si trade too...
asciilifeform: i'll note that it is possible to use substrates other than si
mircea_popescu: comes in a container, you hook it to the machine.
mircea_popescu: you'll buy them at costco, like you buy smoked herring today.
mircea_popescu: how is the car gonna grow you distilled hydrocarbonds, decimation ?
decimation: how is the 'ic printer' gonna grow you a pure si substrate?
mircea_popescu: nah, say by 2030-2050 you will be able to buy one of today's ic printers in the size of a 3d printer
asciilifeform: i've some theoretical work, but it remains on paper
asciilifeform: but sans the $maxint of high vacuum golden toilet
asciilifeform: the equivalent of a 'printer' for ic would be something like an ion beam gun station
mircea_popescu: and electronics hit their wall, half a decade or so ago.
mircea_popescu: quite Adlai's point. for as long as there's refinement available, it goes one way
asciilifeform: printing was more or less the same from herr gutenberd right up to linotype
mircea_popescu: but then...
Adlai: but there's an inflection point. the deskjet printer would have seemed equally wonderous to a (human) printer in 1700 and in 1850, despite the former being twice as far away
asciilifeform: wish it were otherwise, but 'wishes aren't horses'
asciilifeform: none of the relevant tech has changed an iota since day one
asciilifeform: (as the tax code)
asciilifeform: just as much as to those inside the razor wire
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for extra lulz, the statute applies to u.s. subjects going off the reservation and working elsewhere
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: ^ specifically prohibited in the export control statute << except the us exports diddly squat. it imports everything
Adlai: i guess the question is, what purpose does the wot serve? is it just a way of programming the congregation's robotic doormen, or is it something more?
mike_c: because we know each other by nick?
asciilifeform: nubbins`: what state's your beast in now << stuck on crafting the ramdisk (in-ram root fs) for netbsd. as of a week ago. haven't the time, presently, to do anything
Adlai: let the user assign nicknames, let wot nodes publish a signed message of which nicks they use, let wot nodes produce signed lists of which nicks they trust as which nodes... endless possibilities can be built on top, but why make nicks part of the fundamental model? they're not first class citizens. keys are.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: there's an emacs-23 port, iirc
BingoBoingo: <Adlai> let's take a step back. the wot should be about who trusts whom, and trust is verified on the basis of signatures. i see no reason why node identity should be based on anything other than signing keys. << limit in wetware when parsing single identity multiple nicks
mike_c: well, that's the pgp wot
Adlai: you can have a wot (and anything built on top, such as gossipd) without nicks entering the equation
Adlai: let's take a step back. the wot should be about who trusts whom, and trust is verified on the basis of signatures. i see no reason why node identity should be based on anything other than signing keys.
gribble: Bruce Hornsby & the Range - The Way It Is - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOeKidp-iWo>; Tupac - Changes (That's Just The Way It Is) + Lyrics - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnwU2iMRUqA>; That's Just the Way It Is - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/That's_Just_the_Way_It_Is>
Adlai: ;;google that's just the way it is
BingoBoingo: ^ For the people who have not suffered this PC-BSD is equivalent to a 90's era Winblows reskinning. Ubuntism brough to FreeBDSM.
assbot: The Wolf's Den: A Prediction: 2020 the year of (PC-)BSD on the desktop ... ( http://bit.ly/1vR5FMb )
BingoBoingo: And of all of the software I've set up on the OpenBSD install here fucking emacs is the only one that throws messages at the terminal when I invoke it because DBUS is dead.
assbot: Logged on 16-02-2015 17:43:06; mircea_popescu: i guess this drama's dried up, need to move on to something else to keep the btc price up.
Vexual: smaller bubbles whip the cream
BingoBoingo: I don't understand either. XFCE straddles the line of minimum/maximum desktop I can tolerate given my small screen size and clumsy fingers keeping me off of leaner solution.
decimation: I don't get the general preference for gnome over kde
BingoBoingo: so when they make ports, dbus
BingoBoingo: Mtier makes many of the OpenBSD port
BingoBoingo: Mtier = Golden toilet company that sells exportable installs of desktop systems for oil rigs et al makes Gnome a centerpiece of their OpenBSD desktop solution.
BingoBoingo: <decimation> although the rumor I heard back then was that most of the 'smart guys' working on solaris were spending their working days trying to unravel the gordian knot of kernel locks << But as an Oracle turd they can now break whatever they want in the name of handling one database faster.
decimation: asciilifeform: the concept of a closed design chip is dead forever too
BingoBoingo: Shame the solaris 10 with the SMF turd introduced was the only "open" one and likely inspired so many systemdevaintisms
decimation: asciilifeform: also, the 'spiritual heir' of solaris is maintained by those 'joyent' people
asciilifeform: while everyone knows the caveats of the 'million fly eyes', the concept of closed source os is really dead forever - as far as thinking folks are concerned
decimation: although the rumor I heard back then was that most of the 'smart guys' working on solaris were spending their working days trying to unravel the gordian knot of kernel locks
decimation: "asciilifeform doesn't see the appeal of closed source unixen" << I see the appeal of actual people maintaining a unix, closed or open
BingoBoingo: More RAM makes Electrum server more feasile. Not to run the server for the wallet mind you, but because of the queryable database of blockchain data.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: what do you need to do with the blockchain that can't be done 1G at a time ?
asciilifeform: the entire ussr never had, quite likely, 1g of ram between it
asciilifeform: the folks running ancient closed-source unixen today do so 'not from a good life'
asciilifeform: the boxes were ok.
BingoBoingo: Connects on campus have yet to send the flag and since on every visit lab still intact I assume they aren't slacking
BingoBoingo: Don't know if they ever will
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the best way to get something like this is to be there when folks are throwing them out by the tonne
BingoBoingo: WHat lab is full of http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sun-Ultra-60-Workstation-2x-450MHz-2GB-RAM-73GB-HD-/380274164694?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item588a1b43d6 << Not same price as Ultra 80 which is twice the processors of this one
BingoBoingo: That lab "engineering building Floor one at SIU Carbondale, forget which wing" still solaris lab. I like the hardware though for "lives forever" and other unixen run fine
asciilifeform doesn't see the appeal of closed source unixen, no matter how he tries
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: my uni threw out pallets of these
asciilifeform: 'QUESTION: Are you insane? Are you stupid? No one would ever pay this much for a laptop! You should sell it to me for $10 because it is so old and worthless. / ANSWER: Contrary to your opinion, I sell several of these machines per week. These machines are used for many reasons including: / Government & Military projects ...'
asciilifeform: mega-lol in the 'faq' on that listing ^
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it's a 'not whether death, but when' sorta thing
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: regardless of what else, the unbounded data structure has to go
ben_vulpes: 'tis another knob to turn. if instead of rewriting the bastard storage mechanism, one could leverage the network protocol to reduce the number of bastards per wad sent over the wire, it might alleviate some pain.
ben_vulpes: re: bastards, has anyone experimented with the number of blocks requested?
asciilifeform: the soic-8 one pictures costs around $10.
BingoBoingo: So OpenBSD 0.7.2 qt build 17 hours without an OOM kill (returned to 512MB process limit a while back) Presently a June 15th, 2013. Seems the space for bastards to be introduced has shrank enough to make bastards moar manageable.
decimation: I wonder if there's like a little mini-clamp that you can affix to a pin
decimation: asciilifeform: what do you think the best method would be to semi-permanently attach a lead to an smt chip pin? I tend to ruin the pad by soldering
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: connect a ttl-to-serial voltage converter to the convenient debug pins, and have at it << PC9000 largely valued because drive plugs in to IDE or SATA ports in this ISA/(hopefully there's a PCI version by now) card. Boot to card. Diddle at leisure with curses interface. Most operations automated already.
asciilifeform: with one of these:
asciilifeform: decimation: generally no one does this. folks read the asm straight
decimation: there are many ways to map machine code to assembly to pseudo-c
asciilifeform: earlier today someone reposted the famous (~2yr.) link of demo where linux is installed on the head controller
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: connect a ttl-to-serial voltage converter to the convenient debug pins, and have at it
BingoBoingo: <decimation> asciilifeform: it's impossible to analyze the rom contents of a simple microcontroller << Once again PC9000. Russian product that basically lets anyone who can understand the interface su all over the hdd firmware.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: not even the theoretical basis for contemplating such a thing, presently exists.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: unless you know something i don't, they're $maxint years out
asciilifeform: granted, some of the drives had weird variations on the usual themes (say, dual mips cores with oodles of proprietary coprocessor regs)
decimation: asciilifeform: it's impossible to analyze the rom contents of a simple microcontroller
asciilifeform: who needs the source?
asciilifeform: ^ specifically prohibited in the export control statute
decimation: in a similar way that allowing the user to enter their own cryptography via a separate front panel would be wrong
decimation: of course, the drive manufacturers couldn't put a switch or toggle on the front of the computer
asciilifeform: without even having to contemplate opening the chassis, in which, as is known, daemons live
asciilifeform: updatable via the bus for the same reason as everything else: so lusers can update from winblows
asciilifeform: if these produce statistical anomalies (distinguishable from white noise) as rc4 is known to, this'd be a good avenue to search for 'mouse droppings' in the wild.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: No particular reason. Makes Data recovery stuff easier with PC9000. Also creates a market for that kind of data recovery when firmware makes drive shit the bed.
asciilifeform: it is done, like the 'anal child' in mircea_popescu's essay, 'because they can get away with it'
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: what is the reason why it should not be a mask rom ?
asciilifeform: if there exists, somewhere, a maker of drives which demand signatures - usg is the first to get a copy of the key, to no one's great surprise
asciilifeform: anyone who has ring0 on the box and can send raw ata cmds. can flash.
asciilifeform: of the handful of vendors whose drives i have studied personally, not one used a signature scheme of any kind, for example
asciilifeform: and now that the multivendor diddlomatic is out, winblows users will get what they so persistently beg for
mircea_popescu: i still don't see the wisdom of allowing diddling of firmware via data bus.
assbot: Logged on 18-01-2015 04:50:24; asciilifeform: http://www.spiegel.de/media/media-35661.pdf << the document concerning specific doctored firmware
asciilifeform: hdd firmware << 1) snore. revealed definitively in doc. ~month ago, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=18-01-2015#981436 2) proven as concept in 'linux on hdd head controller' ~2 yrs ago 3) experimented with privately by numerous folks, incl. yours truly, for a few years before 4) mostly a snore, even the best hdd diddle falls down in a raid5 system
mircea_popescu: but with naked rather than flaming woman in tow.
decimation: well, at any rate I give the netagio people credit - they unwound in an orderly way when the business wasn't working out
mircea_popescu: at least if you mean "most of the people makin > 250k and living in a big city"
mircea_popescu: no, in the sense that they simply do not know what happens if it wasn't written in hungarian
mircea_popescu: tbh, that 67/27/2.5/0.25 thing pretty much exactly matches the map of real gdp
mircea_popescu: mostly the result of shitty regulation environment and uk people being idiots.
decimation: " Market share of Bitcoin trading globally continues to mirror Bitcoin adoption stages, with China leading the way with 67%, the US capturing 27% of all Bitcoin trading, the EU following with 2.5% and the UK with a stagnating 0.25%, mostly as a result of a lack of regulatory guidelines and UK banks withdrawing banking support from British Bitcoin businesses."
decimation: that netagio closing is amusing. I wonder what the real story behind it is
Adlai is too busy doing the victory dance to look this up... he now has two scalpls running in the same lisp image and they're not stepping on eachother's toes
BingoBoingo: Adlai: is it that hard to imagine that nsa doesn't need the manufacturers' text source to backdoor their drives!? << PC9000
mike_c: If you want a bunch of people to contribute, the wiki is there. If you basically want to do it yourself, then sure, put it wherever.
cazalla: mike_c, that is specific to #b-a moreso than Bitcoin in general isn't it? and anyway, if i pursue this by myself in the short-mid term, it'll reflect on me instead of b-a website
mike_c: why not just use the b-a wiki? It already has limited editors.
pete_dushenski: they appreciate authority and understand hierarchy
thestringpuller: pete_dushenski: Child soldiers make the best kids.
cazalla: i actually like the idea, i might brainstorm some ideas and see what i come up with, start by cherring picking the easier topcis such as exchanges
lobbes: So getting ZNC configured to use SSL ended up being a great 'introduction project' for learning some of the basics of linux. I would recommend to all the other n00bs out there
BingoBoingo: mike_c: Pretty sure I threw in the towel because sources that needed consulted were threatening brain damage
mike_c: but seriously, if there were an L2 editable repository (like the b-a wiki), I'm sure multiple people would contribute
scoopbot: New post on Pull Your Own Strings: http://thestringpuller.tumblr.com/post/111222539949
mircea_popescu: it would be good. if you have the time/energy, cazalla, it would work well as a companion to qntra.
cazalla: researching an article and you know what would be good? a wiki of bitcoin companies, who was involved, when they launched/closed etc etc, edited and maintained by a select few
cazalla: mike_c, that's what friends are for, real friends, the ones with balls, the ones who will grab his arms from behind while you sock him a couple times
mike_c: physically fighting bullies has a short lifespan. when you get to high school they get a lot stronger.
cazalla: as i see it, the problems begin when parents/teachers get involved and start teaching the kids it is better to seek out an adult to deal with the bully than hit back and sort it out yourself
pete_dushenski: guy teases girl, they end up dating, etc
cazalla: i am inclined to let kids sort out their own drama anyway, turns out they usually end up friends by the next day anyway
cazalla: pete_dushenski, or smash the kid and have him move instead
cazalla: pete_dushenski, well he is either going to turn around and smack the other kid upside the head or allow another kid to hen peck him
pete_dushenski: it may be energetically cheaper to ignore the tard
pete_dushenski: cazalla: not sure that would determine my kids' pussiness one way or another
mike_c: bun in the oven
cazalla: pete_dushenski, how do you feel about actually letting the little shits in the playground run amok so that you can gauge how much of a pussy your own kids are if they don't stand up to him?
Adlai: there should be #bitcoin-asslings with hand-held log readings and condescension seminars
cazalla: i only have the 1
mircea_popescu: only 3 ? dude, you kidding, you're the guy the biological survival of the english speaking world relies on if you have 3. what only/
PeterL: who here has the most kids?
PeterL: I sprayed my cat a couple times to keep her from walking on the dining room table, never tried it with my kids
Adlai: it's because PeterL doesn't beat scoopbot in public, instead berating the authors
Adlai: improvement... because the ceo gets fewer phone calls from usg
pete_dushenski: PeterL: same with my articles then ? author needed ?
punkman: "Until recently, firmware updates for typical desktop and laptop computers were difficult and somewhat risky. This situation, in part, was based on a lack of friendly firmware download tools and operating system limitations. This situation has improved and Seagate now offers firmware updates as a routine matter for the general support of your Seagate drive."
Adlai: sorry, this one: http://spritesmods.com/?art=hddhack&page=6 "The Western Digital firmware upgrade tools proves this is possible: it's basically a tool you run under DOS to put new firmware to both the flash and the service area aka the reserved sectors of the hard disk."
mircea_popescu: that work off the data bus ?
punkman: the hdd manufacturers publish firmware updaters
mircea_popescu: yes but you gotta hook the jtags...
PeterL: thestringpuller: I figured out why your blog was killing scoopbot: there is no author field included
mircea_popescu: Adlai yes, but that does not necessarily replace the firmware.
pete_dushenski: from the article: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/16/us-usa-cyberspying-idUSKBN0LK1QV20150216
Adlai: i'm not this kind of 'hacker', but i gather that if you have root access to the computer, you can send arbitrary bits down the bus connected to the hdd
pete_dushenski: Fanny was like Stuxnet in that it exploited two of the same undisclosed software flaws, known as "zero days," which strongly suggested collaboration by the authors,
pete_dushenski: The group used a variety of means to spread other spying programs, such as by compromising jihadist websites, infecting USB sticks and CDs, and developing a self-spreading computer worm called Fanny, Kasperky said.
Adlai: and even if they did, it's probably faster for them to steal it than ask nicely (not that the latter wouldn't work... it just takes time and paperwork)
Adlai: is it that hard to imagine that nsa doesn't need the manufacturers' text source to backdoor their drives!?
pete_dushenski: the firmware for it does
pete_dushenski: and anyone doing business with the americans
pete_dushenski: "It is not clear how the NSA may have obtained the hard drives' source code. Western Digital spokesman Steve Shattuck said the company "has not provided its source code to government agencies." The other hard drive makers would not say if they had shared their source code with the NSA. "
pete_dushenski: "The U.S. National Security Agency has figured out how to hide spying software deep within hard drives made by Western Digital, Seagate, Toshiba and other top manufacturers, giving the agency the means to eavesdrop on the majority of the world's computers"
ben_vulpes: oh the life of a webdev monkey
pete_dushenski: "Nobody’s really talking about it, but I suspect this is a wider trend: blogs aren’t dying, but they are significantly declining. 2015 might be a rough year."
assbot: Shame them, beat them, parent them. | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1yNRhiv )
mircea_popescu: thjey're small aren't they
mircea_popescu: http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2007/05/the_wrong_lessons_of_iraq.html << guy knew about 5 years before me.
mircea_popescu: "Taking Iraq and President Bush as starting points, and examining the defense mechanisms we use to cope with both, yields the unsurprising conclusion that we are a society of narcissists.
mircea_popescu: someone drop it on hn, maybe the folk are bored and looking for a rehash of 2005's internet politics ?
thestringpuller: ben_vulpes: Yosemite is the best upgrade evah tho
ben_vulpes: i dismiss the upgrade notification each and ev-er-y day.
PeterL: I am still on 10.5, I don't know anything about the new versions
ben_vulpes: PeterL: i'm pretty savvy with the os x shit.
ben_vulpes: i just tried to share a folder from one mac to another
thestringpuller: So I guess I visualize the IRC channel as a bunch of people huddled in some large beautiful room. A new person enters and one of the lords is like "you have permission to speak, what have you?" Which reminds me of congregations of days of old.
mircea_popescu: or how do you call the double link again ?
mircea_popescu: i guess esther n link
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: speaking of which, gnat built and functions on another box (presently i lack the time to investigate why, but will eventually say)
mircea_popescu: and it's worth doing it for your idiotic "national interests" of trying to hide useful bugs in the morass"
mircea_popescu: "all is fine, don't worry, throw LOCs by the thousand million, because it's like a truck, it can hold anything
mircea_popescu: down to 5k. like the bitcoin nodes.
mircea_popescu: well, yes. because in 1970 there were like 100k.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i suspect that 'grandfather time' has already clobbered most of'em
mircea_popescu: is the next nut going to end the internet by killing 5k anon people that were 99.x% of all the people who understood how it works ?
mircea_popescu: ie, osama killed off the us simply by flying a bomb disguised as a plane into the us financial nerve center disguised asa building.
mircea_popescu: sometimes i wonder if the internet itself shouldn't have a bus factor.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform unrelatedly, can you imagine that fetlife rebelled, and banned my... acount. but not the ip. i'm still in shock over the fact.
PeterL: right, not funny for them, funny for us watching
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i learned of it from ilkka kokkarinen. despite the format, worth the evening or two to read.
mircea_popescu: they'd choke
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there is a very entertaining comic book (yes) titled 'samurai executioner', about the life and times of a (loosely historic) fella who famously specialized in testing swords on whole bodies (alive and dead).
mircea_popescu: a large part of the problem is similar to why you can't shoot fish worth a crap. skin, muscle, fatand bone have widely variant refractive indexes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes except one pound of prime rib is a) one pound rather than one hundred - and quantity has a quality all of its own - for instance it won't likely spit blood in your eyes ; b) already intensively prepared. for instance ? skin removed.