Namworld: Seems most regulars are still there talking at least.
Namworld: Haven't been around in a while, but from lurking every now and then, seems it's a bit slow for assets. There's no longer talk about assets/tons of trade tickers.
mircea_popescu: actually afaik the one thing that came out of that field was magnetic bottles, years latr.
asciilifeform: the only magnetic circuit item that remained in use, for a while, was ferrite ram
asciilifeform: so for folks who don't read links, u.s. folk were most of the way to fabricating microscale magnetic circuits, when ic was discovered and entire field evaporated
mircea_popescu: only time i ever bought such a thing was off the auction block. had no use for it, but fuck. dat price.
asciilifeform: what was it herr hitler supposedly said, 'any man who likes to shoot guns ought to join the ss' ?
asciilifeform: Namworld: l0l of the century
Namworld: Admittedly, if I wanted to use any of these equipments, I'd just study the field and get the funds and lab assigned to me.
asciilifeform: or the 3-phase mains
mircea_popescu: i find the symmetry amusing.
asciilifeform: any idea how much room these need ?
Namworld: You're trapped overpaying for a big space. That's the real prison. Small space, you're basically free to do whatever and have the luxury of free time with less stress.
asciilifeform: 'the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread' (TM) (R)
mircea_popescu: lolz all you wish, but let me tell you something : to anyone i knew in the 80s, "you will never own your own pair of jeans" would have been possibly the worst conceivable curse.
mircea_popescu: always the same one!
asciilifeform: Namworld: paul erdos, one of the greatest mathematical minds of his century, owned - a suitcase and suit.
mircea_popescu: that's your job Namworld. can't be asking us. (there's even a rule about it!)
mircea_popescu: sometimes i think i'm too terse. then i look at the logs and shudder. what's a gal to do!
Namworld: Oh... but what's the criterion to be considered living vs existing?
mircea_popescu: http://digitalmoneytimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/shutterstock_120783400-300x199.jpg << anyone explain what the advertising-exec looking chick is doing in that pic ?
Namworld: mircea_popescu, not always. Even then, I don't see many smokers smoking enough to burn almost $1000 a month.
asciilifeform: Namworld: wait till you meet the folks struggling on maximal salary
mircea_popescu: they probably smoke.
Namworld: No. Feels like I have everything I need. I'm just perplexed by people who don't have the excuse of kids struggling on minimum salary.
mircea_popescu: Namworld so then what's the bitch ? you're not seriously contemplating cutting out of that 500 are you ?
asciilifeform: unrelated - anybody read the magnetics links ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, maybe they were goldfish, i dunno.
mircea_popescu: hanbot as big as the penis, it's a rule.
Namworld: Yeah, I wanted to, but I didn't have the hat.
mircea_popescu: why not ? they get kickass hats.
mircea_popescu: Namworld so send the roommate out to turn tricks ? should be 100 an hour at least.
Namworld: If only that... $420 rent here, split in 2 for a 1 bedroom. I'm installed in the living room/kitchen as if it was a studio. Roommate in room.
mircea_popescu: as hanbot sez, "the space to draw one's conclusion is big and fulla dragons."
mircea_popescu: little do they know.
asciilifeform: they oughta have bought mpoe & dice
mircea_popescu: in the end i got however many free megawatts.
mircea_popescu: cazalla i had an entire fucking lulz with the elec corp in romania. they wanted to give me a deal if i prepaid, so i prepaid for like a year. then the eu elec price explosion happened, and so they paid me to get out of the prepay deal. then prices went back down.
cazalla: and if you're really game, load up on top cuts from supermarkets but weigh them in the self-serve as carrots
cazalla: mircea_popescu, lulz no but for anyone else, retention staff often have better deals than pay on time ask no questions customers, so you port your electricity/gas to another provider, old provider comes back to you during cool down period and offers something better
Namworld: I often hear living in the city as someone poor (minimum salary) is harsh. It always seemed a bit absurd to me. Minimum salary here is ~$1400 per month after taxes. CAD$10.55 per hour.
cazalla: Namworld, know the get a discount on your bills trick?
Namworld: I don't see what you mean then.
mircea_popescu: there is that rabi and goats story, but no.
mircea_popescu: the best advice i can give is, if you're having the girls living separate, pair them up. much happier girls, cheaper.
Namworld: I'm completely derailing the current topic, sorry
Namworld: What's the opinion in this room about living expenses? What's acceptable % of revenue wise, how much should it costs, what's important stuff and less important stuff.
mircea_popescu: EXACTLY the same. "oh, we have money, oh, we're in it to get it right"
mircea_popescu: not because it wasn't done. but because the idiots doing it (yes, minsky and all) were idiots about the one thing that matters, which had little to do with their actual target.
mircea_popescu: it is my considered belief that it was SPECIFICALLY the unwarranted delusion that ai is special that ruined it.
mircea_popescu: the relation between games as produced and games is about the same as the relation between intelligence as produced and intelligence
asciilifeform: games, it turned out, could be produced, in the short term, economically.
mircea_popescu: they're both predicated on entertainment...
mircea_popescu: they both don't actually exist...
asciilifeform: i would argue that the overvaluation of games was considerably less dramatic than of ai
mircea_popescu: so, why ? why did the geniuses of mit fare so very much worse than the rag tag band of idiots and imbeciles coding for z80 in their bedrooms ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: more or less everyone knows about the mass atari burials, etc
asciilifeform: decimation: see old threads re: how neutron bombardment caps the price of gold
mircea_popescu: 1983. the thing completely collapsed
mircea_popescu: supposedly ai had much brighter minds at its disposal. what made the difference ?
asciilifeform: the only genuine concern is 'unicorns' (p==np, optical factorizer, entirely unknown strange) for which the incentive is more or less infinite and so will come into existence if at all physically possible
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform here's a snippet that will be perhaps insturctive. the ai winter and the vg winter happened almost in tandem. the latter resolved within a year.by the end of the decade vg was WAY ahead of the beginning.
mircea_popescu: to wit, the usians got beaten at it, so now it will have to no longer exist
mircea_popescu: i don't see a future for the stuff covered by moore's law, for the very simple reason we could call "obama's arab league failure"
asciilifeform: the collapse of ai ('ai winter') quite arguably created a black hole with sufficient suction to take -all- of computing with it
decimation: they sorta turned into that place where that chick sews shit
asciilifeform: fields get 'magicked' out of existence all the time.
mircea_popescu: doewsn't even have to be collapse. consider : a hot area of research in the 50s/60s even 70s was genetics of intelligence.
asciilifeform: not bad bet, either
mircea_popescu: (for they following at home : 4x as many bits does not mean 4x as large numbers. when computer registers went from 32 to 64 bits, maxint went from 2147483647 to 9,223,372,036,854,775,807)
mircea_popescu: the idea that computing power is a monotone... heh. out of the crooked timber of humanity, no monotone was ever made.
decimation: fair enough. I would wager against it happening in the next 20 years
decimation: it's a good point, but is strong enough to close the escape hatch?
mircea_popescu: besides, factoring 4096 keys is not quite that much of a given. for one thing, 1kb keys have not been factored yet. for the other... moore law, again ?
mircea_popescu: how would the key guesser know which key to guess ?
mircea_popescu: not sure what cuckoldry is, but, they can just register another key and push their stuff to it ?
decimation: implicitly, this means that the existing keyholders are sentenced to cuckoldry?
decimation: well, I was thinking about the case where one couldn't 'upgrade' a key because of threats to existing key lengths
assbot: Logged on 14-05-2015 21:49:50; davout: meanwhile, http://blog.bitcoinfoundation.org/ leads to a "The Free Trial is Over" stock page XD
assbot: Logged on 15-05-2015 00:05:30; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-05-2015#1132454 << how could the answer possibly be anything other than yes ?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-05-2015#1132463 << what are you two on about ? obviously if the keys can be cracked you do nbot wish to use them. who uses bitcoin addresses with known pubkeys ?
williamdunne: decimation: I think the current logic is slippage
assbot: Logged on 14-05-2015 22:30:12; cazalla: much better than the grainy tumblr shit someone else links :)
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-05-2015#1132451 << i was gonna bitch but then i saw the gif. that's a kickass gif.
decimation: no one believes that btc/usd is going to stay where it is for the long run
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-05-2015#1132434 << yeah srsly, one of the best private chuckles for ... well, for some people
asciilifeform: decimation: the same amount of girl pickup energy i have
asciilifeform: just as theoretically possible.
mircea_popescu: well... you could start polyamory-ing, and then getting a new girl each week and then tricking her into having her picture taken with weird numbers written on her chest.
mircea_popescu: he can access them via otc, for that matter, just sell em to someone. but it makes little sense before share goes over par.
mircea_popescu: (i also fucked up the math, warrants only worth like 330)
williamdunne: Can't you access warrants and the similar through coinbr?
asciilifeform: which can turn into 0 when mircea_popescu resets the price of mpex ticket to equal 663.1905
mircea_popescu: ima make sure the mpex fee is 1.250 mn or so at that point :D
mircea_popescu: suppose within the year cardano proves such a success s.nsa trades ~0.00020000 like s.bbet. at that point, your 70% share of the stock will be worth 663.1905 ; your warrants like another 663.1904. if btc is 1.2k at that point again, you're now worth a million and a half in benjies
mircea_popescu: that's what, another ~350 ish
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you recall the entire warrants business btw ?
asciilifeform: if correctly parcelled out and sold to americans, they could be worth 10k.
williamdunne: asciilifeform: Wouldn't it serve the opposite purpose, and encourage account reselling?
asciilifeform is wondering what mpex seat will cost by the time he actually needs it
mircea_popescu: well in practice it seems it's mainly to drive people up the wall.
mircea_popescu: it's no such proof. it's proof that you are willing to allow the holder of key y to continue in your stead.
assbot: Logged on 14-05-2015 21:49:50; davout: meanwhile, http://blog.bitcoinfoundation.org/ leads to a "The Free Trial is Over" stock page XD
williamdunne: >It was recently brought to my attention that yes, the MPEx fee for registering new accounts is still 30 BTC.
assbot: Logged on 14-05-2015 21:44:05; ascii_field: i'm kinda curious why mircea_popescu considers a new key signed with a previous key to not be a logical continuation of the same identity. (is it because of the impossibility of hard-guaranteed revocation, as discussed in previous thread?)
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-05-2015#1132394 << not a question of "logical continuation". are children the "logical continuation" of their parents ? are they still required to pass the bacalaureat ?
assbot: So who's running the Courts circus ? on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1L5hSzT )
mircea_popescu: mats went to check out the courts article, seems there's quite a bit left to go before i can close & award it. http://trilema.com/2013/so-whos-running-the-courts-circus/#selection-317.0-325.66
trinque: let 'em nuke each other
decimation: basically the us stole saudi arabia's oil from the british - which is the foundation of us power in the middle east for the past 70 years. obama apparently is ignorant of this history
williamdunne: >Even the offer by Obama of a separate tete-a-tete in Washington could not persuade Saudi Arabia’s King Salman to attend what Riyadh sources describe as “a photo-op” aimed at hoodwinking the American public.
menahem: williamdunne ahh i love #b-a.. all the right reminders. :)
decimation: yeah that's a good point. apparently the arabs are not happy that the us intends to proxy iran instead of them
mircea_popescu: brilliant plan, brilliantly executed. meanwhile, the chinese go to putin's victory celebration, the us press derps about how the european heads of "states" missed the opportunity to be relevant.
mircea_popescu: decimation yeah totally. meanwhile the brilliant plan tostop supporting israel has resulted in an israel that could no longerr pull off the halfweek war, thus the arabs are no longer affraid of it, thus saudi arabia has no further need for the us alliance, thus they're trashing it.
decimation: mircea_popescu: sure! bombing libya was an example of a brilliant plan to shepard the outbreak of love and democracy, not throwing matches at a barrel of petrol
mircea_popescu: the crowdsourced internet, putting pro comics out of business since september 1993
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I have a fixture which disagrees with CFLS. Since the bulbocaust my stock is depleting rapidly as bulbs that once lasted years only now last months
asciilifeform: http://spectrum.ieee.org/geek-life/history/the-great-lightbulb-conspiracy << unrelated, historical interest
gribble: (ticker [--bid|--ask|--last|--high|--low|--avg|--vol] [--currency XXX] [--market <market>|all]) -- Return pretty-printed ticker. Default market is Bitfinex. If one of the result options is given, returns only that numeric result (useful for nesting in calculations). If '--currency XXX' option is given, returns ticker for that three-letter currency code. It is up to you to make sure (1 more message)
asciilifeform: http://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings/afips/index.html << interestingly, they stopped holding this conference in '87. which closely, if approximately, lines up with 'when computers stopped being interesting'
asciilifeform: (then you get: 'fpga' which doesn't give a damn about radiation, can be fabricated with 1940s equipment, etc)
asciilifeform: the key boojum missing from all of this work is: a likewise purely-magnetic means of arbitrarily altering the -interconnects- between elements.
asciilifeform: 'deposited magnetic films as logic elements.' (proceedings of the eastern joint computer conference, 1959. franck, marette, & parsegyan.)
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-05-2015#1132454 << how could the answer possibly be anything other than yes ?
cazalla: BingoBoingo, not cups but i vaguely remember about 25 years ago that they did a big song and dance about biodegradable plastic bags here down under and how they would be phased in and the old ones phased out, yet to this day they still carry on about plastic bags
BingoBoingo: http://gardenrant.com/2015/05/the-compostable-cup-trials.html << lol envirofraud
cazalla: much better than the grainy tumblr shit someone else links :)
jurov: but you still have the account?
ben_vulpes: i don't feel like loading the MPEx api into my head today.
jurov: it was the rest that took half a year
ben_vulpes: (for the uninitiated: i'm being very sarcastic)
ben_vulpes: ragel's sitting right over there, etc
ben_vulpes: <jurov> they'd have to hire knuth himself to squeeze something usable out of that atrocious api << ah, it's not that bad, just write a parser for the variety-speaking ad-hoc blublang
davout: meanwhile, http://blog.bitcoinfoundation.org/ leads to a "The Free Trial is Over" stock page XD
ascii_field: jurov: magnetic logic as described in the literature mostly 'cheated' by including a diode with each gate
ascii_field: in the miniature version i suggested, performance may well edge into overlap with the worst silicon
ascii_field: ben_vulpes: i suspect this can be pushed up as the transformer cores are made smaller and coils themselves shorter (less inductive)
ascii_field: i'm kinda curious why mircea_popescu considers a new key signed with a previous key to not be a logical continuation of the same identity. (is it because of the impossibility of hard-guaranteed revocation, as discussed in previous thread?)
jurov: i suspect boilers will have much better ROI than another honest broker
jurov: yes and building something over it is yet another level
jurov: they'd have to hire knuth himself to squeeze something usable out of that atrocious api
ascii_field: how many zeros to weld on to the price, his business
jurov: mp is the only one to qualify being on mpex, didn't you know?
mircea_popescu: keys are identities. identities have to qualify themselves. the qualification happens to be pay 30 btc.
ascii_field: aha, to upgrade key, mircea_popescu has to take a прогресс м-27м to orbit, and unscrew the old one, then retro-thruster and parachute capsule back to b-a
mircea_popescu: if you can upgrade your key for free, you don't have to pay mpex, you can just find someone with a key they don't want to use anymore and they can "upgrade" theirs to yours.
ascii_field: this is... 7th time? we had the 'mpex discourages key upgrade' thread ?
mircea_popescu: jurov we're talking about this situation where the total number of keys mpex charges for is = to the maximal number of keys ever used. that is not happening.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
jurov: does the bank stops you from accessing your account when you get new suit?
mircea_popescu: what is this, the army ?
mircea_popescu: go into the shop get a new one made, what. you want to turn the old one in for a new one ?
trinque: so you could publish some schema for representing this and arbitrarily other such statements into the deedbot
assbot: Logged on 14-05-2015 18:10:26; ascii_field: or rather, communicating authoritatively the statement that 'anyone using this key after this moment is an impostor'
mircea_popescu: ah, but mind that there's no in principle reason a computer might not exist.
ascii_field: i'm from the shit that actually works within physical limits dept.
ascii_field: just as digital computer, theoretically, does not exist. but the approximation we use is 'almost same'
mircea_popescu: what are you, from the gui department ?
mircea_popescu: there is necessarily not going to be 2+2 wankery.
ascii_field: they cannot be undiscovered, yes. and don't have a baked-in temporal peg
mircea_popescu: very much along the lines of that.
ascii_field: remember the 'what colour are your bits' article.
mircea_popescu: you can't un-discover some integers in a certan mathematical relation.
mircea_popescu: i think the NOTION of expiration dates is broken.
mircea_popescu: it's what they say.
ascii_field: without the current idiotic retroactive cancellation of signatures
mircea_popescu: you have a comment field in the keys as they are now. put in there "This key not valid after block 175552"
ascii_field: (the tech is called bitcoin)
mircea_popescu: without human mediation, this is more of the "smart contracts" coolaid.
mircea_popescu: people have a way of coming to odds with their intentions
mircea_popescu: intentions need not be nor can they be part of signed matter.
ascii_field: but there -must- be a way to proclaim, with all the certainty that can be mustered, the fact that 'i signed with this before but -never intend to again-'
mircea_popescu: there are some things that don't need fixing. what needs fixing re gpg is to use rsa throughout, rather than the current lulzatron.
mircea_popescu: ascii_field makes keys too big, doesn't actually offer anything other than the equivalent "at key promulgation, use it to sing a list of nonces, with understanding that statements w/io the nonce are void", let wot enforce this.
ascii_field: one could picture a few 'cheats.' consider one: key, when promulgated, contains a large but finite set of values Q such that hash(hash(...(P)...) = Q, while P are retained as private. every signature must contain a unique Q from this set. when it is time to retire the key, you spend the remaining 'bullets' all at once.
assbot: Logged on 14-05-2015 18:03:07; ascii_field: if there is a 'key is dead' token that one is relying on some third party to keep secret - it can be captured
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-05-2015#1132130 << the "key deadness" as somehow a part of the key itself, is not only conceptually ridiculous but practically unimplementable. forget it, it's about as relevant to gpg as "the gnu foundation"
mircea_popescu: keys never expire. the meaning you give them may expire, and that's entirely your own personal problem. but otherwise, once found, the integers are there and can be multiplied.
assbot: Logged on 14-05-2015 17:06:45; jurov: kakobrekla: but that's good idea for our keyserver. sign ping every month, otherwise keyserver publishes the key as dead
Adlai: although there is some common ground between fiat and what i'm talking about, which is: neither of them "exist"
Adlai heard there's still coin burning holes in that pocket
Adlai: mircea_popescu: how'd you like to open another PC?
mircea_popescu: owner 2 can always repudiate future signatures on the grounds that "it wasn't really me"
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-05-2015#1132093 << not the real problem. what if owner 1 then comes back, covertly.
assbot: Logged on 14-05-2015 19:23:06; mircea_popescu: davout make a paymium banner then!
assbot: Logged on 14-05-2015 19:33:38; kakobrekla: > Each BIT share represented ownership of 0.1 bitcoins initially. The trust will not generate any income and regularly sells/distributes bitcoins to pay for its ongoing expenses. Therefore, the amount of bitcoin represented by each share gradually declines over time.
ascii_field: (magnetic amps long pre-date semiconductors. nazis used them in subs, rockets, for instance)
ascii_field: -not-, pointedly, a relay - there is no mechanical motion or wear
ascii_field: otherwise we're flying airplane powered by my farts. (i can also 'propose what, not how' l0l)
ascii_field: U fissions either by itself, or not at all, or when neutronned at
decimation: supposedly ibm open sourced the full specs
mircea_popescu: ascii_field you have a discrete cristalline lattice of U, selected nodes get energized to the point they split, creating Xe
Adlai notes that JP "Morgan" Buntix left out the customer qualification criterion
ascii_field: machine then is made entirely of classically conductive material.
ascii_field: no silicon, or doping thereof, required.
kakobrekla: > Each BIT share represented ownership of 0.1 bitcoins initially. The trust will not generate any income and regularly sells/distributes bitcoins to pay for its ongoing expenses. Therefore, the amount of bitcoin represented by each share gradually declines over time.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla that's how the new garrs and nefarios and gigavps and etc run the same old scam. "it COULD be 11btc each. YOU HAVE NO PROOF IT ISNT"
mircea_popescu: spent millenia not even knowing there was a global namespace, perfectly happy.
mircea_popescu: (this is exactly how nature does it - as far as it's concerned the namespace is the genotype, as far as you're concerned you just use a nick for the fenotype)
mircea_popescu: or in other words, the solution to zooko's triangle is to use the local-global axe on the fucking knot. unique and secure names globally ; memorable locally.
assbot: Logged on 14-05-2015 16:14:04; jurov: i hope gossipd spec has a part concerning this. otherwise it will be inevitably bolted on in some ugly haphazard fashion
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-05-2015#1132034 << the spec is that you can allocate whatever nicks you wish, LOCALLY.
mircea_popescu: davout make a paymium banner then!
mircea_popescu: as time goes by, i get more and more fascinated by the concept of "offended"
Adlai: "Furthermore, Bitcoin ISP offers no shares servers"... right, mpex serves shares
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell mike_c hey mike! can you make the bitbet banners in 728x90 ?
jurov: the engine did not even had time sync till 20 minute drift was discovered
davout: yup, wasn't sure of whether *proxies* updated keys as opposed to the engine, but i guess that yes, it's pretty plainly written
ben_vulpes: it's in the readme, you see.
ascii_field: (the other thing is, he didn't forbid upgrading keys - simply happens to charge 30 btc for the service)
ascii_field: then useless idiocy
trinque: I could also make changes to the thing to accomodate; maybe it rolls over all messages looking for particulars, produces some output every X
ascii_field: or rather, communicating authoritatively the statement that 'anyone using this key after this moment is an impostor'
trinque: ascii_field something like deedbot for key expirations (and the presently nonexistent but direly necessary expire-for-new-signatures-only) is inevitable << could you use a specific message format with the deedbot- as is?
jurov: how would it help them?
jurov: only the tree's date is considered for purposes of dead man's switch, what's the problem with it?
ascii_field: as i understand, the only way to do this is to require a blockchain 'ping' with -every- signature
ascii_field: jurov: referring to the 'dead man switch' thread from earlier
ascii_field: if there is a 'key is dead' token that one is relying on some third party to keep secret - it can be captured
jurov: there has to be only one keyserver?
assbot: Logged on 14-05-2015 17:06:45; jurov: kakobrekla: but that's good idea for our keyserver. sign ping every month, otherwise keyserver publishes the key as dead
assbot: Logged on 14-05-2015 16:57:52; jurov: how does "initial contract" resolve the problem of transfer without previous owner retaining the key?