mircea_popescu: anyway, there's a whole selection of current-ish miners available to consumer.
asciilifeform: wonder, who will be the hero to repackage the old asics as radiator with fins ( do you know anyone who wants equiv. of running shop vac at all times in bedroom ? that's what the extant asictrons resemble )
mircea_popescu: the garbage boats come unasked.
asciilifeform: i can actually picture orcs heating with old miners, if they had the two neurons to rub together and get a boat loaded with'em
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but then again argentinas are usually the dumping grounds. most "old" phones ended up in africa.
asciilifeform: ( it never wins on cost, in climate where heat pumping worx (avg. >0c) it is used, otherwise fossils win)
mircea_popescu: for as long as there's such a thing as a http://trilema.com/2016/cargo-cults-a-case-study/#selection-91.0-99.80 still left plugged in somewhere, a miner'd make better use of those watts.
mircea_popescu: it's certainly happening, to the degree electric heating is happening currently.
asciilifeform: i.e. this will go approx same as the jp dream of 'home reactor'
asciilifeform: i suspect that 'heat house' aint happening, no matter what level of 'important'. obsolete miners even nao aint worth the cost of transport , floor space, or fan dusting / noise isolation, even to use as heater. whereas 'current' iron is ~unobtainable to commoner on acct of being a strategic good. and can't picture how this would change as 'important' goes up.
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2016/the-megawatt-standard/#comment-127869 << for thread completeness.
asciilifeform: somehow the 'house + dc' co
asciilifeform: was thinking, pc is substantially easier to get hold of than miner (of any description), but somehow not so many folx heat house with'em ( part of this to do with the difficulty of usefully reselling cpu cycles ; but even asciilifeform , who eats plenty by lonesome , only covers perhaps 40% of heat for house via exhaust from the torture room fans )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall your hypothesis re 'folx will heat house with miner' ?
mircea_popescu: (the situation is actually better than that, seeing how most of those PWh are low quality energy in the shape of low temperature heat.)
mircea_popescu: ie, bitcoin is 0.02% complete. yet something tells me the next ten years are going to see a lot more completion than the first ten.
mircea_popescu: consequently bitcoin is merely using 0.02 to 0.01% of world energy generation, less than the 50%+1 it's supposed to use by a margin of say 5000.
mircea_popescu: at this same time, world energy consumption (instantaneous) is about 10-20 terajoules (on the basis of primary energy generation/consumption for 2015 standing at 170/110 PWh) ;
a111: Logged on 2019-02-10 15:40 mircea_popescu: in other news, bitcoin difficulty looks like it's finally come out of the crazy and into economic coupling, check it out, past six months it's been evidently kept in place by fiat exchange rates.
mircea_popescu: to continue the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-10#1894616 discussion / produce a benchmark for the republic's development : taking mining efficiency at 20 GH/joule (slightly above the antiminer s9) 40 exahash would be ~2 Gjoules.
mircea_popescu: because there's no way in hell anyone can store 5mn procedure calls in 4mb ram.
asciilifeform: btw , to go with http://trilema.com/2019/so-what-is-the-man-saying , really oughta disasm a zcx variant and longjmp side by side and see what actually changes. ( when diana_coman comes back with working bins, i'ma set this up , for thread-co)
mircea_popescu: but this can be factually insured in the model proggy for call testing, by making the DEPTH larger than the page size.
mircea_popescu: you are saying that the delta between the address of the jump instruction and the address of the instruction it jumps to must be at least arbitrary number = page size.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but if i don't adjust the linux max for eulora, why the fuck would i care to do so for this test ?
mircea_popescu: re the loops, i don't see the point in bothering with this there. we were checking loops, not the whole call mechanism, there.
asciilifeform: can do this using stack, but will have to adjust the linux max, iirc it is ordinarily 2MB cap
mircea_popescu: if you use up 16mn stack frames, they'll be multi-page like it or not.
mircea_popescu: but the calls thing can be made any arbitrary size with a switch. you want it 16777216 rather than 65536 is the idea ?
asciilifeform: 'perf' tool will show, incidentally, whether this effect is in play
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 07:49 diana_coman: according to docs, the mere presence of a handler of exception slows the whole things down when lj
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896364 << possibly pertinent detail : on modern irons, long jmp within page seems to take same time as short. so the toy tester may not reveal diff.
mircea_popescu: not like it's verboten, write in some handlers, why the hell not.
diana_coman: re more handlers: there are some cases where we would conceivably need to handle an exception though few
mircea_popescu: "random" doesn't need to be strong, just enough to fuck the optimiser. mt_rand or anything works really.
diana_coman: will do the calling timing harness too
mircea_popescu: IF indeed there's a significant difference between call and loop re that cost, this'll bring it out.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman : btw, here's my current model for the calling timing harness : write three procedures, A B C. have each of these 1. increment a global counter, X ; 2. check if X is over a max value ; 3. if it is not, have each call either one or the other of the other two randomly ; 4. if X is over max value, have them simply return.
mircea_popescu: but there is no such thing as a TRULY unhandled exception. either it hoses the box or else it goes to the default handler.
diana_coman: being starter, I preferred not to force a choice there; but at any rate, if the previous node is basically broken as I gather that's certainly a problem
mircea_popescu: but i mean, your code would have handled exceptions if they arose, yes ? if a for looped out of bounds, or whatever. isn't it so ?
diana_coman: re re-pressing to his node - note that that is re v-tools in fact; and I pressed the v-starter to node before that precisely because it essentially forks there i.e. there are 2 options
diana_coman: hm; I don't know if it's exactly the same thing or not; perhaps it is
mircea_popescu: this is specifically what we were checking, whether this is true or not.
diana_coman: regardless of whether exception is actually raised
diana_coman: according to docs, the mere presence of a handler of exception slows the whole things down when lj
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/so-what-is-the-man-saying/ << Trilema -- So what is the man saying ?
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, the thing there is: it's true we don't care about it if the server crashes but is it also true we don't care about an overall slowdown at all times because of each and any exception actually handled in the code?
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 04:05 trinque: mod6: the curious thing is that you have full paths in just *part* of your genesis.vpatch, in the same exact way diana_coman did
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896320 -> hm, trinque, do you suspect it's really just down to V version? I can easily re-run the thing with a V pressed to same node as yours to rule that out, if that's the case
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 02:01 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895868 << we don't so much care, seeing how we don't intend to have exceptions but exceptionally. if the thing crashes ever, your problems will be in excess of 99, but none of them that "it took one half milisecond extra for burning relic to make it back to earth"
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896155 -> the point is that it's supposed to slow down the code *at all times* , not only /if it crashes; so no, I don't imagine anyone cares about *that* if the whole thing crashes
BingoBoingo: mod6 seems to be in an uncomfortable place resembling where I was exactly a year ago except the people around him speak his mom's tongue. I hope he can pupate in *spite* of that
mircea_popescu: anyway, this trinque - mod6 exchange's gonna be a thing for the ages.
mircea_popescu: "fetish for futility", that has quite the ring to it.
BingoBoingo: <trinque> loller. john k still apparently allowing himself to be unpersoned after having admitted to having teenaged girlfriends, instead of joining the republic. << My first thought on reading John K was chicom derp on Bitcointalk, moderator and escrow fellow
mod6: Ok, so do `sed -i 's/=m/=y/g' trb-test1`, then rebuild and try again?
trinque: lots of decent tools in the kernel makefile; worth building kernels directly (rather than via "genkernel") to get acquainted with them
asciilifeform: then dun need modulism at all
mod6: oh crap, maybe overlooked that asciilifeform. I can change and retry if that's the best plan.
asciilifeform: rather than fiddling with initramfs fulla modulism, wainot do what asciilifeform does on piz boxen and bake it all =y
trinque cheats and just boots a moduletronic kernel, then "make localyesconfig" and rebuilds
mod6: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/zHUbI/?raw=true << vdiff info, built with the gnat '16 blob, and starter_v.zip
mircea_popescu: well at least this discussion's narrowing down the paths issue
trinque: mod6: the curious thing is that you have full paths in just *part* of your genesis.vpatch, in the same exact way diana_coman did
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 03:41 trinque: ftr there are loads of interesting uses for initramfsen; we will have tooling to make them, but it has to come absent the sin of the load-all-modules thing and "lemme go automatically mount whatever root I can find" and miles else
mod6: ok so next marching orders are to not do the USB Stick, and `lsmod -v` compare; but instead, will take a few days to look into initramfs, and then try to build another?
mircea_popescu: kinda lulzy, considering they can't really stand up for five minutes without them. no cobain there to argue for alternative to mp worldview, what's left ?
mircea_popescu: im sure he fucked a bunch of seattle cokewhores without asking them.
trinque: nope, there'd be cobain me2 by now if he hadn't eaten it
mircea_popescu: they do a lot of this http://trilema.com/2018/the-night-of-the-hunter/#selection-133.0-133.542 lately, don't they.
trinque: mod6: can I get the genesis.vpatch ?
mod6: hmm, nope didn't verify. I threw in a sha512 of each sigfile just to ensure that I have the correct ones: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/CCU2l/?raw=true
trinque: the ren and stimpy guy
trinque: loller. john k still apparently allowing himself to be unpersoned after having admitted to having teenaged girlfriends, instead of joining the republic.
mod6: Oh, no, I got side tracked. It never did match up for me. Let me check on the latest one that was output.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 03:04 trinque: I still want to know whether your genesis.vpatch matches mine, and this is at least as important as whether it produced a bootable drive
trinque: very little justification for writable root. I've fiddled with the CD burning too.
mircea_popescu: not like i rebuild it every other week or w/e.
mircea_popescu has been playing the same heroes 2 for 20 years now. if it were on chip it'd have hurt nothing.
mircea_popescu: in any case, on a sane system that's stable there's ~0 reason to have the CODE on disk.
mod6: Ok, starting small, I got you. I dunno where the fire is either -- I don't know why I'm in any sort of rush here.
mircea_popescu: initramfs seems the logical intermediate step to romware.
trinque: ftr there are loads of interesting uses for initramfsen; we will have tooling to make them, but it has to come absent the sin of the load-all-modules thing and "lemme go automatically mount whatever root I can find" and miles else
mod6: I suppose there's some good wisdom in that. I wouldn't want mircea_popescu torch his trb if it does weird shit on a 'getinfo' either.
trinque is quite familiar with the impulse to torch the thing when it misbehaves, but it's not going to get us a distro we own.
mod6: you know? I think learning about it is a fine thing, probably would make me understand the errors of my ways.
mod6: so i just wiped the disk again and moved on.
mod6: you know, at one point i did actually handroll an initramfs on cuntoo, at which point I updated the /etc/lilo.conf and when I booted, and it panic'd, it did drop me into a shell.
trinque: yeah, comparing a boot with initramfs to one without would be a fine thing; even better would be for you to bake your own initramfs sometime with say busybox, and have the init script drop to a shell so you can see what it is
mod6: ok, but it is understood that we're talking about the same box though, right?
trinque: proposal is that you investigate what initramfs is, which will lead to an answer on why one worked on the box you had before, which will lead to why you don't need one
mod6: and if alf's way seems like a sane thing to try, that's what I'm working on now. otherwise, I'm all ears and can adjust as you see fit.
trinque: the accent is yelling!
mod6: Anything that even remotely looks like the finish line seems like a win -- even if it's not.
mod6: Like I said, didn't mean to offend in any sort of manner. I just got excited, thinking I was on the right track, and tried to get the thing up and running. I mean, shit, it's been like 13 or 14 days now of reboots, inflations, etc.
mod6: I'll try to do this the way that #t sees fit. but, on my own, left to my own decision making (as I don't know much about these things) might be a bit askew.
mod6: no worries, we'll get there.
trinque: I very much want you on an actual cuntoo because one of the immediate needs is a trb ebuild.
mod6: Ok, even if its not. I'm just saying I'd never expect anyone to follow the initramfs thing or any other thing. You know way more about what is kosher in gentoo/cuntoo than I do.
mod6: I'm not asking you to add my posbox foibles into your config. trb/ada/musl that I want to test on there doesn't care what kernel modules are loaded.
trinque: recall the work with trb, and how much better a patch that removes is than one that adds.
trinque: that we have something to muntz further, and I'll strongly oppose any argument to ADD to it without hard justification
trinque: I'm saying this is the aim in my building this item.
mod6: But alf helped me to realize that there is a way we can still try to diagnose this issue by trying to boot off of USB stick, so I'm going to attempt that first before any more initramfs stuff.
trinque: so then. a core claim I'm making is *this is all I have ever needed to boot a sane linux on commodity hardware for years*
mod6: I posted a jpg of the beginning of my genkernel. Basically there is another similar command to make the initramfs. Both end in failure that I spoke about above.
trinque: and by the way, note how easily "I did not read this thing; I just want to use" bloats the holy tree of meaning is illustrated here
mod6: So if you can glean soemthing off of my exp. that's great. I just didn't view the problems with my pos box to be super helpful to you.
trinque: what's the dependency chain of what you chose? how much additional weight do you bring into the genesis.vpatch for portage?
mod6: I don't quite see it that way, I'm just trying to do Foundation work, that does overlap with the Cuntoo work.
trinque: so your goal is to have a computer for mod6 on the back of my work, and if it incidentally helps get the cuntoo thing done, w/e
mod6: well, that's a win for me, the only thing that sucks is you don't get to make your improvements from my own experience.
trinque: what is the consequence of that?
trinque: lemme come at it another way. suppose your result here, absent my help, appears to be "this hardware only boots with initramfs"
mod6: Maybe we're talking past eachother a bit here. Anyway, I don't know much about these things. I'm kinda learning bit by bit as I go... it all certainly doesn't "fit in head" or whatever yet.
mod6: I'm the fool here, not you.
mod6: Trying to make an educated guess, or educated experiment I suppose. Are you disappointed that I tried to make the initramfs? If so, why does this bother you so?
mod6: Sometimes that means taking a shot in the dark, even if it's misguided from the point of view of someone who knows better.
trinque: do you recall how to interact with the logs? I responded to some lines of yours there. what of them?
mod6: trinque: I have little clue of what I'm doing. I'm just trying to solve it, in the only ways that I can.
trinque: nor would "mod6 now knows about initramfs and what they're for" do anything but set you up to understand later tools I have for the republic that actually use the things properly
mod6: If going through all the motions to try to figure out what the actual hardware problem is, and it'll get me across the finish line, great. I'll do that, but I think you're acting as if I'm somehow trying to violate you.
mod6: I'm just a guy, trying to boot the thing so I can test something totally not related to kernel mods.
trinque: so "because I have this amulet" I'm not interested in what trinque is trying to teach me about what the amulet is?
mod6: I'm not a "kernel hacker guy", so I've been down these roads based on trying to emulate what I see working in my other machines, and various online posts in teh gentoo forums and others.
mod6: So the thinking behind initramfs: 1. I have one on the working gentoo on that box, 2. from what I've read that can help with various kernel related problems
trinque: I still want to know whether your genesis.vpatch matches mine, and this is at least as important as whether it produced a bootable drive
trinque: very glad to see your experiments with using the UUID labels btw; I'm soon to haul that into the script. I do want to remind that this won't change the genesis that is produced by the bootstrapper.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 01:42 mod6: So I went to build one, but that was barfing on me. Which lead me to find this kernel option 'CONFIG_FIRMWARE_IN_KERNEL=y'. Which would help me complete the build of the initramfs. http://www.mod6.net/cuntoo-blog-1/genkern/genkern.jpg
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896088 << this is precisely backwards; doing that is the right answer to ^ and ~obviates~ the need for an initramfs for the firmware purpose
trinque: the only reason initramfs is used on personal machines is that the users have been lost to sloth and "can't be expected" to build own kernel
trinque: initramfs is used when the kernel can't mount the root fs without using a program to do something complicated first, i.e. loading firmware, unpacking a squashfs in an embedded device, etc
trinque: there's all this metaphoric content without rooting to anything, which makes it hard to track where your head's at to have what with to help
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 01:41 mod6: Then I got on the track that perhaps i do need to have an initramfs.
mod6: Ok, thank you gentlemen. I appreciate the insight & help.
mod6: I want it ~clean~ and not munged up by whatever other attemps and genkernel fuckery.
asciilifeform: i expect you'll need a root=/dev/sda3 in the kernel cmdline and similar in fstab.
mod6: alrighty then.
mod6: so, `dd` the entire cuntoo ssd disk onto a usb, then attempt to boot the USB, and then do the lsmod diff between the USB cuntoo and the SSD cuntoo?
asciilifeform: mod6: nope , that line gets printed if kernel compiled with scsi option set, regardless of whether any card.
asciilifeform: mod6: quickest way to learn wtf, i suspect, is to dump the thing bitwise onto a usb, and boot that, then lsmod -v and diff with your known working set's lsmod -v output.
mod6: See, I kinda thought the SCSI subsystem thing meant that SATA was ready.
mod6: So next mission is to use a clean USB drive, and inflate cuntoo onto that, and then try?
mircea_popescu: ah. well ok then.
asciilifeform: all he's got, is a [ 0.971934] SCSI subsystem initialized , which happens when kernel brought up regardless of whether any module matches up to working disk hanger
asciilifeform: notice there aint one in his.
mircea_popescu: ie, from a cursory look at his published logs, my impression was that the kernel has sata just fine, but the disk's not plugged in the config-set hole or somesuch.
asciilifeform: was always built like this, tho. module that doesn't find its device, in some cases reports (e.g. in mod6's log, the raid) but usually says nuffin.
asciilifeform: it comes, in this particular case, from the people who actually do http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896130 -- e.g. shituntu -- whose boot log would be 9000km long if ~every~ device that was simply not found, produced an eggog
mircea_popescu: mod6 it seems rather likely.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-13 21:59 diana_coman: at least there are no more surprises of huge differences in timings; but I'd still test also with some exception handling since that's supposed to slow sjlj down
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895868 << we don't so much care, seeing how we don't intend to have exceptions but exceptionally. if the thing crashes ever, your problems will be in excess of 99, but none of them that "it took one half milisecond extra for burning relic to make it back to earth"
mod6: The funny part is, it could jsut be this one really obnoxious setting that I'm missing; I feel like it was that way back when I did gentoo in '15.
asciilifeform: simply barfs like depicted in mod6's paste -- 'where the fuck is / ? halted'
asciilifeform: this is how it behaved, from the 1st published kernel and to present day
asciilifeform: ~why~ is q to ask torvalds when you nail him to the cross, not me
asciilifeform: mod6: you get a 500MB kernel then, lol
mircea_popescu: i guess. honestly, i'd expect to see logs reflecting failure to init sata if that were the case.
mod6: Could be, a solid way to try to prove that is the USB Stick route. Because, I'm not super well versed in SATA kernel drivers.
mod6: Which is why, in the first place, I thought I had a bad SSD. Which is why I ended up buying a second one just to be sure.
asciilifeform: mod6: where didja get the kernel srcs for this build ?
mod6: I did look through the makemenuconfig, there are a lot of added in USB drivers. however, there was one option that I noticed that I should look hard at (all when trying to do the genkernel for different reasons), which is the Intel USB Drivers.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: ty, will try lightening up the payload copy for mass distribution
mod6: Ok, so you're saying: Do all of the above steps, but instead of using a SATA SSD, inflate cuntoo onto a USB stick?
asciilifeform: ( and you'll then need to find what yer sata is hanging off, and rebuild with it baked in )
asciilifeform: mod6: if you were to take this exact thing, and stick it onto a usb , and then it boots when '/dev/sda3' -- then you will know that the above is it
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "In light of the outlaw status being forced upon your organization, it is advisable to begin to operate accordingly." << too bulky contentless. that's supposed to be the closer neh.
mod6: Right, well, cuntoo expands all of those things and build it, you just feed it a config. So if there is something that is "off" about my config with some other slightly different source version, then that might be a part of it.
asciilifeform: observe that 'old config' != 'old kernel' if the src tree were swapped
mod6: certainly possible. seems totally wacky to me that the same kernel config would boot gentoo perfectly, but not cuntoo. note in the wotpaste above that I copied in my /usr/src/linux/.config from gentoo directly and build that config.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it'd be a lot more possible if the same kernel on same machine didn't boot before.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it'll do it , supposing that kernel actually sees the disk ( whether it does, is not obv, observe that it dun come up in the kernel barfola )
mod6: The days leading up to the blog post, i used nothing but names: /dev/sda{1,2,3} and eschewed UUIDs totally.
mod6: Oh, i totally felt the same way.
mircea_popescu: from what i gather actually setting the correct path (ie, /sda3 or w/e it actually is) should really do it. i don't expect you can just unilaterally set uuids, gotta make them work from the other end too first.
mod6: So perhaps im kindof on the right track - use UUIDs where I can, and build an initramfs... however, haven't had a lot of success with building the initramfs yet. I may have to fight through that. But that's the latest update.
mod6: But I keep getting failures that say "Failed to compile the "all" target. No matter what I do it seems.
mod6: So I went to build one, but that was barfing on me. Which lead me to find this kernel option 'CONFIG_FIRMWARE_IN_KERNEL=y'. Which would help me complete the build of the initramfs. http://www.mod6.net/cuntoo-blog-1/genkern/genkern.jpg
mircea_popescu: mod6 is the disk hanging off internal port or usb port ?
mod6: I think that I might be on the right track here though, and I did try a few other things after reading some documentation. For instance, after the above, I changed /etc/fstab to use only UUIDs instead of '/dev/sda{1,2,3}', and then tried that. Same problem essentialy. I also found about 'PARTUUID', which is supposed to help in certain circumstances. Nothing has worked yet...
mod6: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/BoTML/?raw=true << Ok, so after installing Cuntoo, I did what I said I'd do, which was test editing the append section and throwing a UUID in there instead of 'root=/dev/sda3'. It didn't work, I did get a kern dump.
asciilifeform: ( otherwise it aint a call, but a 1way ticket, i.e. jump )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but it's the job of "optimizing" compiler to keep all that to a low roar.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: calls dump register snapshot liquishit on the stack, and inevitably ding the cache, whereas loops not
asciilifeform will re-play ffa benchmarks on the longjmp gnat, once the latter's built, but doesn't expect to find any measurable diff
mircea_popescu: should possibly also do the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895520 test tho (even though on a good compiler, there really shouldn't be much difference between a call and a loop)
a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 13:14 mircea_popescu: wasn't the long jump thing slower ~generally~ ?
mircea_popescu: i'll still want her to fill in the rest of the table ; but tentatively yes. looks like i'll be withdrawing my objection to bvt 's original comments ( http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895233 ) sometime tomorrow. in which case all the better, we just do that and good riddance.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if you give a damn re exception-propagation speed, prolly oughta measure that. otherwise seems like the docs didn't lie, it dun do anyffin to ordinary jump
mircea_popescu: in fact in some cases it could be the case IT IS ACTUALLY FASTER (to a very small degree)
a111: Logged on 2019-02-13 21:40 diana_coman: since it seems it'll take a while until I can add to my data the numbers for sjlj on ave1's gnat as well, here's what I have so far: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/1esL2/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895836 << so on the basis of this better table neatly presenting data i'm concluding that a) serpent run indeed takes 2.8 us or so ; b) timing data converges within 1/3 s test runs or so ; c) these statements equal to foregoing earlier items which are thus retrospectively deemed correct and finally, and most importantly d) tentatively it seems sjlj adds no measurable time delay on running co
mircea_popescu: yet pantsuited hilarity STILL hasn't managed to find the twitter button, seems like.
asciilifeform: and not as if anyone was there to write down his 'fuck, really'
mircea_popescu: elderly father who whole life hammered kid with better notions and interests to "you must be emperor of rome", if eventually presented on death bed with circumstantailly obtained, wholly worthless emperorship much likelier to declare "he was right all along" than to see "holy shit what an idiot i've been"
asciilifeform: dunno, d00d had perhaps the 1 working brain in the whole outfit. sorta why he was picked for the speshultreatment.
mircea_popescu: i suspect though that it's unlikely to really happen. yamamoto went down indignant like the anti-chucker "never ~really~ went down" etc.
mircea_popescu: it's a convenient fiction trope, this, that a merciful god on the moment of closing accounts points out the hole.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-13 23:43 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: these folx seem to have a psychiatrically-classical 'царь-батюшка' imaginary friendship w/ trump
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895898 << They dorks also imagine friendship with each other, but anytime their cheiftans manage to collaborate the alliances quickly fracture. So many alt-alts emerged out of not being united in opposition to Hussein Bahamas.
mircea_popescu: no no, i didn't mean re crypto. i meant, whether he realised he fucked up.
asciilifeform: ingenohl << funny how these people let themselves get fucked by shit crypto not 1ce, but 2ce.
asciilifeform: iirc rose had a 2way ticket and took option of throwing out the return half.
mircea_popescu: those weren't actual escapees were they ?
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 00:35 mircea_popescu: it's well dented lol. their whore hr was ~this girl.
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1895967 << Then there's the bonus collateral damage when you captured bimbo sends her girlfriends back home happy dispatches further underming morale in the reich.
asciilifeform wonders if admiral yamamoto, as he hurriedly seppukued in his falling bomber, fulla holes from 'mustangs' that appeared out of nowhere in the middle of fuckingnoewhere pacific -- understood that his crypto had failed
asciilifeform: the sorta thing that makes e.g. bolixologies, look quite trivial in comparison. ( sad old crate, fits on desk; but try and fit the finns )
asciilifeform: iirc we even had an actual finn here, for maybe 1d. but then promptly sank back to the bottom of the sea .
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd like to learn one day the seekrit of just how did the finns stuff selves up own arse in '90s
asciilifeform recalls mother , coming back from trip to fi in late '80s, with roughly same reaction as asciilifeform after voyage to ro
BingoBoingo returns from walking the Inca to log
asciilifeform: the place, at one time it rocked tho
mircea_popescu: nobody even speaks the damned thing.
mircea_popescu: hungarian (the only equally retarded non-language) is comparatively easy because w/e, half of cluj ever spoke it. but finish ?
asciilifeform will admit to having eaten some of the lang, but strictly for sport, and by no means could atm stand for duty as translator
mircea_popescu: (and native finish speaking sluts reading ? report to the whoremaster general.)
asciilifeform strongly suspects there's a motherlode of naggumism of finns, that could be excavated if anyone were to liberate the 'dejanews' stash.
mircea_popescu: there's also some possible in erly irc finish punklands ; my fin-enabled green brasiers are scant, i'm not excavating it very quickly.
asciilifeform: well, he was what he referred to as 'organiker' , i.e. synthetic chemist in the germanic tradition. the industry evaporated from under him.
mircea_popescu: this much is true, trilema beat the decade huh.
asciilifeform: not counting, err, the actual dead greeks' , that is
asciilifeform wouldn't be terribly surprised if one day mircea_popescu digs up the wreckage of an attempted 'trilema' that was run in e.g. classical greek , tho
asciilifeform: ( see also the perpetuum mobile / square circles thrd )
asciilifeform: how folx react to 'hrm, this -- is broken' is possibly the ultimate exam.
mircea_popescu: take the recent "what should be language ?" "ada" "well... turns out it's broken!!!" proceedings ; THEN compare with the chechen history.
asciilifeform recalls the (perhaps) apotheosis of 'republic of ichkeria', when they held council to pick 'official language', and close runner-up to arabic (which ~nobody knew) was... osman turkish . which , presumably, no archaeologist could be found to excavate, and so the thread died.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, the fault for "there's exactly 1" lies not-with-me!!! i do not as much as keep it secret ; or not make a point of it ; or anything else.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the hope's that this time the cool boys are less retarded than historical norms (eg, chechens).
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 00:22 asciilifeform: strictly re chix -- in '90s chechen harems filled up with chix from ru, on exactly same scheme of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895936 . but 'social media'ism not invented yet then, so the publication crown afaik goes to mircea_popescu .
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1895965 << hey, i'm not like claiming i invented odoacer over here, god forbid. all successful, growing republics of history got the same perks, cuz how and why wouldn't they.