Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2019-02-12 | 2019-02-14 → ↓
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2018/in-which-a-bizarre-character-wanks-it/#selection-541.3-553.157 << i always thought this was obv, and find it brainfucking that anybody dungetit
mircea_popescu: i dunno, somehow it ain't easy to compute
asciilifeform: what's hard to compute tho. you put sumthing on www, erry 2bit spamplagiarismbot mirrors it in 10sec, not even speaking of actual humans laffing
asciilifeform bbl,meats
feedbot: http://bimbo.club/2019/02/philosophical-transactions-for-the-months-of-july-august-and-september-1716-part-vi/ << Bimbo.Club -- Philosophical Transactions. For the months of July, August and September, 1716. - Part VI.
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895610 -> fwiw the thing is..still running given the full set of loops
a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 23:41 mircea_popescu: i'm still waiting for diana_coman to return.
diana_coman: I think a gradual approach (i.e. run it & record results gradually increasing the number of loops) might be useful meanwhile
diana_coman: so I'll post the testing code with full set of loops in a bit and then go and set up another run too
diana_coman: basic test including serpent + test project with full set of loops : ossasepia.com/available_resources/ljmp_test.tar
asciilifeform: diana_coman: day+ ?! is this just 1 shot of benchmark, or many ?
asciilifeform: imho whole day is a bit of overkill if for ~one~ shot..
diana_coman: asciilifeform, one! and look here at times: 1 loop -> 0.000168893 s ; 2 loops -> 0.007213758 s ; 3 loops -> 0.351611073 s ; 4 loops -> 17.74 s ; 5 loops-> 879.95 s
diana_coman: hence my original only 3 loops really; but mircea_popescu asked for the full set of 23 loops so there it is, still running
diana_coman: for completeness: the set of data above is from a different machine hence a bit faster than those of yest
diana_coman: 5 loops is already 15 minutes and ftr 6 loops is still running on that machine as we speak - by the looks of it, it'll be more than 1 hour
diana_coman: it's of course not exactly surprising, given that one goes from 50 serpent executions to 50mn rather quickly
mircea_popescu: diana_coman darn, i utterly miscalculated it. does
mircea_popescu: !Qcalc 49 ^ 21
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
mircea_popescu: !Qcalc 49 ** 21
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: 311973482284542380586661606802325504
mircea_popescu: diana_coman you'll have to abort it, reduce the loops significantly. sorry bout that.
mircea_popescu: !Qcalc 4 ** 21
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: 4398046511104
mircea_popescu: !Qcalc 2 ** 21
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: 2097152
mircea_popescu: !Qcalc 3 ** 10
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: 59049
diana_coman: see the timings above for 1-4 loops for some concrete idea
mircea_popescu: diana_coman a through j ; for 1 to 10 mod 4 plox.
mircea_popescu: i might be the weakest person in the world for basic arithmetics.
diana_coman: ah; why 10 mod 4 and not ..hm, 6?
diana_coman: uhm, 2
mircea_popescu: diana_coman idea was to go twice per loop, rather than 1nce. 2 will go in too many times still
diana_coman: ah, so if a mod 4 = 0 you mean
diana_coman: from 1 to 10; if mod 4; got it
mircea_popescu is very sorry about wasting a day. coulda done 30 seconds of figuring numbers BEFORE just as well.
diana_coman: a to j aka 10 loops from 1 to 10 only and then with if mod 4 -> 0.000855 s (no long jmp)
diana_coman: on the slower machine too
mircea_popescu: this is remarkably fast!
mircea_popescu: !Qcalc 0.000168893 / 50
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: 3.37786e-06
mircea_popescu: !Qcalc 0.007213758 / (50**2)
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: 2.8855032e-06
mircea_popescu: !Qcalc 0.351611073 / (50**3)
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: 2.812888584e-06
mircea_popescu: !Qcalc 17.74 / (50**4)
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: 2.8384e-06
mircea_popescu: !Qcalc 879.95 / (50**5)
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: 2.81584e-06
mircea_popescu: !Qcalc (50**5)
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: 312500000
mircea_popescu: !Qcalc (2**21)
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: 2097152
diana_coman: trouble is that it might be too fast for the sort of timing precision we have
mircea_popescu: !Qcalc (3**23)
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: 94143178827
mircea_popescu: !Qcalc (2**23)
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: 8388608
mircea_popescu: diana_coman seems it stabilizes after 3 loops or so, if you look, it's within a few % with .007s and pretty much there at 0.35s
mircea_popescu: diana_coman try whole 23 loops, same 1 to 10 mod 4 plox ?
diana_coman will try
mircea_popescu: turns out a serpent takes about 2.8 microseconds.
diana_coman: 1.259 s
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think her work above provides us with some useful data : it turns out it is reasonable to expect timings converge for measured intervals of at least 1/3 of a second, on the basis of the above.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman imo perfect. now do lj
mircea_popescu: !Qcalc 1.259 / (2**23)
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: 1.50084495544e-07
mircea_popescu: !Qcalc 1.259 / (2**21)
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: 6.00337982178e-07
diana_coman: given that it's still not that long, I'd do at least an avg
mircea_popescu: diana_coman how the fuck many loops are there ? 22 ?
mircea_popescu: diana_coman i think it's plenty long. why not long ?
diana_coman: from a to v? 22
mircea_popescu: !Qcalc 1.259 / (2**22)
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: 3.00168991089e-07
mircea_popescu: there's something amiss here.
diana_coman: because the clock thing is not very precise; on 4 runs of same thing I got: 1.25, 1.27, 1.29, 1.28
mircea_popescu: diana_coman the problem is this : on the basis of this last run, we're estimating serpent to take 0.3 microseconds.
mircea_popescu: on the basis of the previous timings you reported, we estimated it ~2.8 microseconds
mircea_popescu: this is degree of magnitude off, somehow. wanna walk through the math with me ?
diana_coman: and both of them are likely to be more due to measurement error
diana_coman: wait, what?
diana_coman: 0.3 vs 2.8? ugh
mircea_popescu: except the other set converged, look : 3.37786e-06 2.8855032e-06 2.812888584e-06 2.8384e-06 2.81584e-06
mircea_popescu: for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 loops respectively as reported in http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895666
a111: Logged on 2019-02-13 14:24 diana_coman: asciilifeform, one! and look here at times: 1 loop -> 0.000168893 s ; 2 loops -> 0.007213758 s ; 3 loops -> 0.351611073 s ; 4 loops -> 17.74 s ; 5 loops-> 879.95 s
mircea_popescu: is this faux convergence then ?
diana_coman: can't quite tell tbh
mircea_popescu: ok, but indulge me :
diana_coman will need to leave for about 1 hr in ~5min time but will read
mircea_popescu: we are currently entering the loop twice, and we enter a total of 22 loops. therefore the number of times serpent is run is 2 ^ 22.
diana_coman: that much sounds good
diana_coman wil bbl
feedbot: http://bimbo.club/2019/02/philosophical-transactions-for-the-months-of-july-august-and-september-1716-part-iv/ << Bimbo.Club -- Philosophical Transactions. For the months of July, August and September, 1716. - Part IV.
asciilifeform tried to unravel wtf was found here
asciilifeform: diana_coman, mircea_popescu : all of above is still just the baseline (no longjmpism) case ?
asciilifeform: based only on above, i suspect a case of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-10#1886261
a111: Logged on 2019-01-10 14:08 asciilifeform: aaand to round off : it vanished on the test box also. culprit appears to have been a running raid-verify job...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform basically, we found i can't math ; that aside, we found that in one context serpent takes ~3us, and in another ~0.3us.
asciilifeform: diana_coman , when come back, plox to briefly describe the box
mircea_popescu: do me a favour first and let's nail the numbers down. so, for 1 to 100 if mod 2 results in the loop being run 50 times ? or 49 ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 50
asciilifeform: how else
asciilifeform: there are 50 even #s b/w 1 and 100 incl.
mircea_popescu: alright. and if there's 22 for loops, this means the correct count of "how many times serpent is run" is 50 ^ 22 then ?
asciilifeform: in the pasted snippet, each outer loop multiplies the shots of inner by 50
asciilifeform: so yes if you make 22, then 50 ^ 22
mircea_popescu: so then what the fuck.
asciilifeform: that's quite a few, even if you had nuffin in the middle of it
mircea_popescu: right. point being, she did 1 to 5 loop sets of that, and the values converged.
mircea_popescu: then they suddenly diverged by order of magnitude.
asciilifeform: i'ma guess box ground to a halt during the 5-loops run, for a spell
asciilifeform: ( why -- cannot say until diana_coman returns with brief description of the irons )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally and unrelatedly, since i'm fixing this other article : do you happen to recall the trilema piece where "middle age crisis" ie, dood getting rid of older wife hooking up with younger girl is explained in terms of "well, she won't be as fucking annoying" ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: possibly was 'the peak of insanity'
asciilifeform doesn't like benchmarks where 1 shot takes moar than coupla min, for the reason that unix box is a shitfest, liable to decide 'hey nao is the time to munge the fs' etc. and suddenly eat cpu for multiple min, whenever
asciilifeform: if yer proggy takes >=12h, this is certain to happen, it'll run up against cron
asciilifeform: ( depending on what you got in there )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform note that a set of up to 200s converged, and then a 1 1/4 s item diverged.
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2011/barbati-si-copile/ << found it ; was ro which is why it had "disappeared"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is why i like 'run 9000 shots, and discard outliers' (granted this only applies when the item is expected to go in constant time, goes without saying)
asciilifeform brb,teatime
mircea_popescu: anyway, she'll be back momentarily and we'll dig into it smore.
mircea_popescu: did i ever link the obvious http://trilema.com/2018/post-malone/#selection-79.0-205.38 answer to the obvious if commonplace http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-03#1884205 idiocy ? i think not, and it'd be a waste.
a111: Logged on 2019-01-03 19:24 stratum: Right now, for the billions, I think it is probably better than nothing, just like easily popped household locks.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in unrelated lulz, http://trilema.com/2014/website-thou-art-lol/#selection-423.92-423.100 (believe it or not, "affirmed" is a term of art in the context, that's how cuntmagic works, by "affirmation".)
mircea_popescu: well now i have to step out ; diana_coman do some more experiments, get some more data, we gotta figure out wtf this is.
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/02/work-verification-spyware-on-its-way-to-mandatory-in-us-slave-empire/ << Qntra -- "Work Verification" Spyware On Its Way To Mandatory In US Slave Empire
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, I think it was a mis-communication really
diana_coman: I got stuck here in traffic earlier too, hence my being late, sorry;
diana_coman: anyways, back to it: for one thing you were comparing there numbers from different machines and I get the impression you got the "4 runs" in the 2nd report to mean different loops while they were not (it was same thing, repeated)
diana_coman goes to write this down properly alreayd
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, I found the key misunderstanding there (in addition to comparing different machines and all that): the 1.25value is when serpent is fully optimised for time i.e. it goes from ~8s to 1.25 for full 22 loops 1..10, mod 4; sorry for the confusion there, I was still in exploration mode.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: plox clarify what means 'fully optimized for time' here
diana_coman: Serpent has pragma Optimize(Time)
diana_coman: gprbuild accepts levels of optimization via -O flag
diana_coman: with no optimization (or -O0 iirc) it's ~8s; with -O3 it's 1.25s
asciilifeform: i assumed you used same flags for all shots
diana_coman: at that specific shot I was exploring esp given the previous issue of "too long time"
diana_coman: anyways, I'll compile the dataset and publish it in a bit
asciilifeform: historically i found that o3 is moar or less unusable for benchmarking anyffin, it risks to 'optimize away' unexpected pieces ( for instance, quite possibly your loop-and-mod-2 )
diana_coman: bc exploring I went http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895742 and I was getting confused too but anyways
a111: Logged on 2019-02-13 14:49 diana_coman: wait, what?
diana_coman: aha, all benchmarking and data will be without any optimization
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/02/chase-bank-inexplicably-severing-relationship-with-fellow-who-happens-to-lead-mens-fraternal-organization/ << Qntra -- Chase Bank Inexplicably Severing Relationship With Fellow Who Happens To Lead Men's Fraternal Organization
asciilifeform: 'Tarrio believes that unless President Donald Trump steps in, the de-platforming and dehumanizing of conservatives will continue. “He needs to step in, not only because if he doesn’t he will lose in 2020 with all of his supporters being kicked off social media, but because it’s the right thing to do,” Tarrio finishes.' << lol!!
asciilifeform: 'Facebook, Twitter and Google are actively restricting conservative content through biased algorithms. Silicon Valley doesn't want you to read our articles. Bypass the censorship, sign up for our newsletter now!' << BingoBoingo write'em a mail ?
BingoBoingo: Sure, will get to writing
asciilifeform: ty BingoBoingo
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/02/us-air-force-intelligence-specialist-officers-2013-defection-to-iran-revealed-in-indictment/ << Qntra -- US Air Force "Intelligence Specialist" Officer's 2013 Defection To Iran Revealed In Indictment
BingoBoingo: ^ Mega Lulz
BingoBoingo: While Snowden was defecting to no where in particular, it turns out other people were defecting to somewhere
asciilifeform: 'the Cyber Conspirators created a Facebook account that purported to belong to a USIC employee and former colleague of Witt, and which utilized legitimate information and photos from the USIC employee’s actual Facebook account. This particular fake account caused several of Witt’s former colleagues to accept “friend” requests' << lol! defectors aint what they usedto be...
asciilifeform spend yrs in the unfortunate company of erry known species of usgtard , and came to conclusion that the principal 'limiting reactant' for defections is... they ain't got where to. ~nobody outside the amerigulag needs ~any of'em for anyffin.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well, hard to say from here what seekrits she handed over that they don't want to print. Hence the focus on Facebook tardism.
asciilifeform: ( granted, they also selectively hire for this, even so much as having been off the reservation counts against candidate. but this is imho strictly secondary. )
diana_coman: ave1 or anyone else more experienced in rebuilding ave1's gnat with a previous incarnation of same: I'm trying to build using the scripts in ada-musl-cross-2018-09-24.tgz on a machine that has as only existing and perfectly working !) gnat a previous ave1 gnat version; I ran as the readme says simply ./build-ada.sh absolute_path_to_dir but the whole thing fails because it doesn't find some libs such as libgmp.la; a closer look at the outpu
diana_coman: t shows that it is looking for them in the wrong place and more specifically in the place where they were on the previous system where the working gnat was built! so hm, where and why does it store that path and how do I point it correctly?
diana_coman: I'm trying to rebuild it because current build doesn't have sjlj
BingoBoingo: In other updates, selection working on Pizarro wordpress. Copy on the main page http://pizarroisp.net/#selection-65.0-119.32 contact page http://pizarroisp.net/contact/#selection-11.0-23.151 with ARM Server page added http://pizarroisp.net/arm-dedicated-servers/
BingoBoingo: More to be done on the website, but ready to move on to writing that email to the dissidents for asciilifeform
asciilifeform: diana_coman: this is quite puzzling, esp. since i've built ave1's gnat on 1 box, and since copied to handful of others, on each into an entirely diff dir
asciilifeform: ( and all run )
diana_coman: the script to rebuild ran?
asciilifeform: this, not tested except on orig
diana_coman: or gnat itself? because gnat itself runs /ran perfectly fine, yes
asciilifeform: aa hrm.
diana_coman: hence only now I ran into this puzzler
diana_coman: since it seems it'll take a while until I can add to my data the numbers for sjlj on ave1's gnat as well, here's what I have so far: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/1esL2/?raw=true
asciilifeform: diana_coman: this may even be the culprit behind ( still unresolved afaik ) http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-03#1820460
a111: Logged on 2018-06-03 22:27 asciilifeform: !Q later tell ave1 http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/J7Aey/?raw=true << amd64 gnat dun build on arm64.
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform was not able to build a working x64 gnat from the arm64 gnat )
diana_coman: I guess until now I always built ave1's gnat on a machine that had adacore's gnat installed with all the paths to libs like that quite standard so possibly that's why it never failed
asciilifeform: defo sounds like 1 or moar of his built bins aint static
diana_coman: it seems to me that it's just a path/configure that remains /is carried over from where the gnat was built
diana_coman: specifically, here's an example (with the path marked by me for clarity): build/build-bootstrap/gcc-4.9.adacore2016/build1/mpc/src/libmpc.la:dependency_libs=' OLD_PATH/lib/libgmp.la NEW_PATH_CORRECT/lib/libgmp.la'
asciilifeform: ( i thought i checked this prior, but apparently not; no dynamics bins tho )
asciilifeform: aah so hardcoded path, hrm
diana_coman: yes and moreover weirdly enough it DOES have the correct one too, but it comes only after the wrong/old one and so it fails 'cause it can't find that
asciilifeform: diana_coman: on the old gnat -- seems like 0 detectable diff b/w the variants ?!
diana_coman: possibly, hm
asciilifeform: whythefuq do they even include, the gimped 'zcx' variant, then.. ( aside from http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895611 isms)
a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 23:41 asciilifeform: ( aside for weirdo 1970s chips with no interrupts... )
asciilifeform: !#seen ave1
a111: 2019-02-03 <ave1> do you have an error log?
diana_coman: coming back to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895807 aka http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/1esL2/?raw=true if it converges, it seems to be diff on diff machines+diff gnat; I might note also ftr that the times there on very short runs (i.e. a few loops) are not reliable ; other than that though, so far with this test there doesn't seem to be much penalty on having sjlj
a111: Logged on 2019-02-13 18:41 diana_coman: anyways, I'll compile the dataset and publish it in a bit
asciilifeform: why would you even compare b/w diff machines.
diana_coman: grrr, I did NOT compare between diff machines
asciilifeform: hrm, how do i read 'it seems to be diff on diff machines+diff gnat'
diana_coman: there was the earlier mess-up with the 2 datasets hence my current stress of the fact, that's all
asciilifeform not picking on diana_coman out of sadism, simply had nfi how to parse that line
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Dispatch sent via hEathenMAIL, content http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/0crQm/?raw=true
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: imho a++
diana_coman: sorry, the ref to previous mess wasn't quite clear, you're right
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: after mircea_popescu nitpicks, perhaps this oughta be used as a template for others
diana_coman needs some sleep
asciilifeform: aa its sleep time in diana_comanistan aint it
diana_coman: at least there are no more surprises of huge differences in timings; but I'd still test also with some exception handling since that's supposed to slow sjlj down
asciilifeform: as i understand that's the 1 thing that's expected to slow
diana_coman: asciilifeform, it's been a bit of a long day too, sorry; strictly speaking you are in fact right there: that line compares them yes,if only to stress that "ofc they are different"
asciilifeform: diana_coman: sleep, and i expect the output will come out before you wake up. meanwhile i'ma see if i can figure out wtf re the paths.
diana_coman: the output?
asciilifeform: of the remaining runs
asciilifeform: ( or are these on hold pending gnat rebuild ? )
diana_coman: on hold atm since a. for sjlj on smg.test yes, need gnat rebuild b. for the rest it's unclear if it's worth to run or which ones so rather pending mircea_popescu feedback
diana_coman: re paths I suppose a simple grep -r "libmpc" would show perhaps duplicates if nothing else?
diana_coman: i.e. where/if the trouble is not somehow just on my machine (though I got it on 2 machines...)
asciilifeform: the only hit is x86_64-linux-musl/share/info/mpc.info -- a readme
asciilifeform: ( in the built gnat )
diana_coman: well, that doesn't have the scripts too, does it?
asciilifeform: no, and i'ma look on the build box
diana_coman: it would have at most the path I suppose, if it's hardcoded somewhere
asciilifeform will come back to this puzzler; presently bbl (meat)
diana_coman: no hurry, I'll get back to it tomorrow morning anyway
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895803 << well ok but mixing like that's not going to get us anywhere.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-13 18:37 diana_coman: with no optimization (or -O0 iirc) it's ~8s; with -O3 it's 1.25s
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895808 << i deliberately wrote it like that because i expect it can not be optimized away. how would this go ?
a111: Logged on 2019-02-13 18:41 asciilifeform: historically i found that o3 is moar or less unusable for benchmarking anyffin, it risks to 'optimize away' unexpected pieces ( for instance, quite possibly your loop-and-mod-2 )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i since looked, and it doesn't
asciilifeform: ( ~will~ unroll very small loops, but not applicable to subj )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895813 << eh, what a fucking stupid idea. nobody wants anything with "social media", let the socialist tards & my bots have it.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-13 19:05 asciilifeform: 'Tarrio believes that unless President Donald Trump steps in, the de-platforming and dehumanizing of conservatives will continue. “He needs to step in, not only because if he doesn’t he will lose in 2020 with all of his supporters being kicked off social media, but because it’s the right thing to do,” Tarrio finishes.' << lol!!
mircea_popescu: write fucking blogs, what "platforming". the sort of cuck that expects "president trump" to make him exist is just an alt-flavour transgender dork.
mircea_popescu: either man up or get the fuck lost (to baluba island)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: these folx seem to have a psychiatrically-classical 'царь-батюшка' imaginary friendship w/ trump
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895814 << no but see, the thing eminently IS NOT that they have something to say. the thing is, that they misperceive there's a dole going on, that they're excluded from. their idea specifically is very much in the line of http://trilema.com/2011/antreprenorii-sanisedeie/ and so on.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-13 19:06 asciilifeform: 'Facebook, Twitter and Google are actively restricting conservative content through biased algorithms. Silicon Valley doesn't want you to read our articles. Bypass the censorship, sign up for our newsletter now!' << BingoBoingo write'em a mail ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform just about. plus a ridoinculous flavour whereby "white sox won cup because i, joe fatass, was screaming in a bar!!!"
mircea_popescu: "so now they owe me"
asciilifeform: possibly someone in that pigsty aint actually a pig tho, and might 'hmm, actual hosting..'
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895817 << pretty fucking lulzy. the "platform" / "social media" etc was SUCH A SUCCESS, for the first time in history us brass defecting to fucking iran.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-13 20:40 feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/02/us-air-force-intelligence-specialist-officers-2013-defection-to-iran-revealed-in-indictment/ << Qntra -- US Air Force "Intelligence Specialist" Officer's 2013 Defection To Iran Revealed In Indictment
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you will absolutely not get anywhere for as long as you continue with the braindamaged approach of trying to talk to their self-appointed "gatekeepers". do not talk to weev or w/e, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-22#1756992 braindamage ; talk to the individual individuals,.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-22 17:18 weevlos: trinque: we are a media publication. our power and capital comes from the number of visitors we have to the site. we aim to transform through culture. if normal people cannot visit our site we are not accomplishing our goal
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: plox to expand this binomial for asciilifeform -- who are 'the individuals' ?
mircea_popescu: i understand why the "i'd like to talk to as few people as possible" is appealing to the fucktard^H engineer mindset. nevertheless, the only way to win this is to have the decisionmaking atomized as much as possible.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-12 19:26 mircea_popescu: i expect if attempted it'll immediately run into the same problem pizarro is encountering, whereas bois will do ANYTHING WHATSOEVER, no matter how patently stupid and laughing impending beheading in the face, just as long as it's NOT "talk to a lot of people".
a111: Logged on 2018-08-28 22:27 mircea_popescu: and i do mean ~every single last one~. i talk to every single chick on fetlife, meaning EVERY SINGLE ONE. that's the job of existence. nothing else passes muster.
mircea_popescu: and so on, going back a while.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i get this part. the q is , where is the equiv of fetlife that is to get this treatment.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-03#908165 was re hosting. wtf am i going to build, a list of conservative forums EACH SINGKLE REGISTERED ACCT ON WHICH MUST BE MESSAGED ?
a111: Logged on 2014-11-03 20:19 mircea_popescu: also, anyone own aged/trusted accounts on BlackHatWorld TrafficPlanet WarriorForum DigitalPoint SitePoint they might wish to sell or share ?
mircea_popescu: why, because then you'll do what you didn't do last i build you the list ?
mircea_popescu: every. EVERY. EACH AND EVERY SINGLE ACCOUNT ANYWHERE jesus f christ.
mircea_popescu: not the dorks "in charge". the userbase. target the userbases of everyone.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895819 << much better strategy, as it turns out.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-13 20:43 BingoBoingo: While Snowden was defecting to no where in particular, it turns out other people were defecting to somewhere
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo seems like the designated victims already in the logs. plox to produce payload for spamtron and post for nitpick.
mircea_popescu: this defecting "to the civil society" or w/e snowden tried blew up spectacularly, when it comes right down to it there's no civil society left in the socialist gulags.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i suspect ~100% of'em would defect if anyone gave enuff of a shit to offer.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-13 20:49 asciilifeform: 'the Cyber Conspirators created a Facebook account that purported to belong to a USIC employee and former colleague of Witt, and which utilized legitimate information and photos from the USIC employee’s actual Facebook account. This particular fake account caused several of Witt’s former colleagues to accept “friend” requests' << lol! defectors aint what they usedto be...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha.
mircea_popescu: and the bar for enough is dropping each day.
mircea_popescu: in any case -- i claim dibs for trilema re leadership in this whole "defection" business. WAY before femstate media reported on such a thing, it was on trilema.
mircea_popescu: as these things usually go ; i shall limit self to pointing out that time the ny times copied my paywall model.
asciilifeform: the particular meatbag ? or general case
asciilifeform: ( general case not new, e.g. martin & mitchell in 1960 to su )
a111: Logged on 2019-02-13 21:36 BingoBoingo: In other updates, selection working on Pizarro wordpress. Copy on the main page http://pizarroisp.net/#selection-65.0-119.32 contact page http://pizarroisp.net/contact/#selection-11.0-23.151 with ARM Server page added http://pizarroisp.net/arm-dedicated-servers/
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform specifically : a) female b) moving away from femstate to c) patriarchy [where to happily live in d) new status and e) social media announcement of this that f) really insanely bothers femstate remnants]
mircea_popescu: a-c mandatory d-f optional elements.
asciilifeform: traditionally 'defection' is about a crown official neh
asciilifeform: when peasant packs bags, usually just 'emigration'
mircea_popescu: this harsh reality whereby "nobody gives a shit about your '''career''' bs and she'd much rather http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-18#1888192
a111: Logged on 2019-01-18 16:52 mircea_popescu: what've "they" fucking accomplished yet, with their ever-so-clever scapegoating merry-go-round ? economy flats around the ugliest, shittiest town in all of europe, and 12yos who'd rather be raped & set on fire by pakis than talk to "her majesty"'s clerks ?
mircea_popescu: this, this thing that is now a thing and will be much more of a thing, this thing was first announced, and first demonstrated on trilema.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the relation between "official" and "defector" is in your head because as it happened to work in the soviet union, all jobs were state jobs. the new soviet pretends "private", and so you can have non-officials that are nevertheless defectors.
mircea_popescu: head of nominally private raytheon nevertheless will defect to great acclaim.
mircea_popescu: and so various execs in nominally "private" usg state entreprises.
asciilifeform: i suppose if chairman of crapple or somesuch moves to huawei, that also 'defect'. but garden hr chix ?
mircea_popescu: if the makers of the reich's airport security theatre crystal globes don't count as crown to ye...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform smiths plc != garden.
asciilifeform: lol smiths !!
mircea_popescu: "if you look closer, you will see them"
asciilifeform had , briefly, dealings with sub
asciilifeform: mega-supplier of golden toilet. same folx who e.g. conned the ministry of subway trains into buying $maxint 'detectors' ( that later all thrown out, ~homeopathic )
mircea_popescu: "creating the future" or whatever the fuck. it's 100% as much crown as ye olde Министерство монтажных и специальных строительных работ СССР.
mircea_popescu: so, yes, i claim first mover, and for good (and well fucking documented) reasons. cuz it's what it is, what.
asciilifeform: that wasn't my nitpick tho ( it's sure as fuck 'crown' ) but re ~who~ runs off. is it a 'defection' if lowly paper pusher , and not brass ?
asciilifeform: ( not to mention, there's ~0 seekrit about the tech, it's deadly snoar )
asciilifeform: to rewrite the eqn, how many nicoleci's would mircea_popescu have to lure off, to visibly dent the thing
asciilifeform: ( i suppose could empty it of chix, if there were 9000 mircea_popescu's , but there's exactly 1, at least in my light cone )
asciilifeform: on top of this, backbone of bureaucracy is reddit-fat / old bags, these are safe from mircea_popescuation as i understand
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1895944 << this kinda thing afaik not happened yet. tho i expect it will .
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 00:00 mircea_popescu: head of nominally private raytheon nevertheless will defect to great acclaim.
asciilifeform: in asciilifeform's extended meatwot, there was a greybeard d00d who agreed, in 1980s, to leave a u.s. semiconductor co and chair a jp one. (but was eventually lured back, quietly)
asciilifeform: arguably intra-reich lateral move tho, jp is sad usg colony for many yrs nao.
asciilifeform: strictly re chix -- in '90s chechen harems filled up with chix from ru, on exactly same scheme of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895936 . but 'social media'ism not invented yet then, so the publication crown afaik goes to mircea_popescu .
a111: Logged on 2019-02-13 23:57 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform specifically : a) female b) moving away from femstate to c) patriarchy [where to happily live in d) new status and e) social media announcement of this that f) really insanely bothers femstate remnants]
mircea_popescu: it's well dented lol. their whore hr was ~this girl.
mircea_popescu: you really ~can't imagine~ how threadbare the reich insides are.
mircea_popescu: you realise, currently the stopper on "legislating" is that the few available interns whose brains permit the activity simply can't copy/paste at a faster rate ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: didja ever find out whether that branch tentacle ended up closing shop on acct of the escape ?
mircea_popescu: o shoot, i misspelled "whole".
mircea_popescu: they never close shop, roflmao. wtf, not like they DO SOMETHING.
asciilifeform: hrm so what's 'defection' actually ~do~ to them ? seems then that it's rather like firing pistol into slime mold
mircea_popescu: what do you mean what's it ~do~ ? it's exactly like highschool sex, it doesn't ~do~ anything, except in the estimation of the boys who haven't yet.
mircea_popescu: bragging rights, which is why the above claiming thereof.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1895965 << hey, i'm not like claiming i invented odoacer over here, god forbid. all successful, growing republics of history got the same perks, cuz how and why wouldn't they.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 00:22 asciilifeform: strictly re chix -- in '90s chechen harems filled up with chix from ru, on exactly same scheme of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895936 . but 'social media'ism not invented yet then, so the publication crown afaik goes to mircea_popescu .
mircea_popescu: anyway, the hope's that this time the cool boys are less retarded than historical norms (eg, chechens).
mircea_popescu: not much of a high bar.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, the fault for "there's exactly 1" lies not-with-me!!! i do not as much as keep it secret ; or not make a point of it ; or anything else.
asciilifeform recalls the (perhaps) apotheosis of 'republic of ichkeria', when they held council to pick 'official language', and close runner-up to arabic (which ~nobody knew) was... osman turkish . which , presumably, no archaeologist could be found to excavate, and so the thread died.
mircea_popescu: item was deeply lulzy from a lot of perspective ; but i will point out and udnerscore that no one was well equipped to appreciate that lulz prior to this here republic's senate discussions.
mircea_popescu: take the recent "what should be language ?" "ada" "well... turns out it's broken!!!" proceedings ; THEN compare with the chechen history.
mircea_popescu: instant comedy goldmine.
asciilifeform: how folx react to 'hrm, this -- is broken' is possibly the ultimate exam.
mircea_popescu: absolutely.
mircea_popescu: first, last and only exam.
asciilifeform: ( see also the perpetuum mobile / square circles thrd )
asciilifeform wouldn't be terribly surprised if one day mircea_popescu digs up the wreckage of an attempted 'trilema' that was run in e.g. classical greek , tho
asciilifeform: not counting, err, the actual dead greeks' , that is
mircea_popescu: i don't really expect it, because you need specific technologies to enable it.
mircea_popescu: possibly on bbs ; though i think you beat me to punch, dug out naggum.
mircea_popescu: also possibly on early web ; but similarly, dug out uncle al.
asciilifeform: naggum burned out like cheap american match.
mircea_popescu: this much is true, trilema beat the decade huh.
asciilifeform: al had longer run, sank with the 'vhs civ' that birthed hivm
mircea_popescu: that he did. weird, huh.
mircea_popescu: but yes, very "4th of july at our liquor store" air to him, 1980s "america" and all that.
asciilifeform: well, he was what he referred to as 'organiker' , i.e. synthetic chemist in the germanic tradition. the industry evaporated from under him.
asciilifeform: last i knew d00d wasn't dead yet, but tended his garden (actual garden, with cabbages) in silence.
mircea_popescu: there's also some possible in erly irc finish punklands ; my fin-enabled green brasiers are scant, i'm not excavating it very quickly.
asciilifeform strongly suspects there's a motherlode of naggumism of finns, that could be excavated if anyone were to liberate the 'dejanews' stash.
mircea_popescu: (and native finish speaking sluts reading ? report to the whoremaster general.)
asciilifeform will admit to having eaten some of the lang, but strictly for sport, and by no means could atm stand for duty as translator
mircea_popescu: yeah ; i have no mind of ever mandating it.
asciilifeform: sad ol' dead lang.
mircea_popescu: hungarian (the only equally retarded non-language) is comparatively easy because w/e, half of cluj ever spoke it. but finish ?
mircea_popescu: nobody even speaks the damned thing.
asciilifeform: it's roughly like studying e.g. chechen. go an' pin down a live specimen.
asciilifeform: the place, at one time it rocked tho
mircea_popescu: definitely, 1990 internet is one third romanian, one third finish, and one third wool.
BingoBoingo returns from walking the Inca to log
asciilifeform recalls mother , coming back from trip to fi in late '80s, with roughly same reaction as asciilifeform after voyage to ro
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd like to learn one day the seekrit of just how did the finns stuff selves up own arse in '90s
mircea_popescu: atm, no fucking clue.
mircea_popescu: and it's not even "translator" that's needed. lingvistic-cultural expert, it's a high grade job.
asciilifeform: iirc we even had an actual finn here, for maybe 1d. but then promptly sank back to the bottom of the sea .
asciilifeform: !#seen kmalkki
a111: 2016-10-15 <kmalkki> apu1 also really needs DBREQn asserted to give access to USEHDT IR/DR pair
asciilifeform must agree with mircea_popescu , diggin' up dead cultures is job entirely unfit for 'amateurism', risks result similar to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876443
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 17:41 mircea_popescu: but yes, alladin carries a pretty fucking strong scent of "oh, hi, we're ohioan squarejaws wearing bedsheets. totally legit rome sir. rome, ohio."
asciilifeform: the sorta thing that makes e.g. bolixologies, look quite trivial in comparison. ( sad old crate, fits on desk; but try and fit the finns )
mircea_popescu: right. moreover, bolix you know when you succeeded.
asciilifeform: rright, like e.g. kurchatov knew.
asciilifeform: 'hey, it verily goeth bang'
mircea_popescu: if you want to write program to read disk, you know when you managed ; if you want to write program to encrypt disk...
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Will compile some more payloads.
mircea_popescu: you ~maybe~ know when you failed.
asciilifeform wonders if admiral yamamoto, as he hurriedly seppukued in his falling bomber, fulla holes from 'mustangs' that appeared out of nowhere in the middle of fuckingnoewhere pacific -- understood that his crypto had failed
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1895967 << Then there's the bonus collateral damage when you captured bimbo sends her girlfriends back home happy dispatches further underming morale in the reich.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 00:35 mircea_popescu: it's well dented lol. their whore hr was ~this girl.
mircea_popescu: hanbot wonders if ingenohl realised it.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo amusingly, there was a spate of various chicks taking to their wings.
mircea_popescu: girls are very contagiable. cuz herding instinct, see.
asciilifeform: morale << recall butthurts over 'tokyo rose' ?
mircea_popescu: those weren't actual escapees were they ?
asciilifeform: iirc rose had a 2way ticket and took option of throwing out the return half.
asciilifeform: ingenohl << funny how these people let themselves get fucked by shit crypto not 1ce, but 2ce.
mircea_popescu: no no, i didn't mean re crypto. i meant, whether he realised he fucked up.
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895898 << They dorks also imagine friendship with each other, but anytime their cheiftans manage to collaborate the alliances quickly fracture. So many alt-alts emerged out of not being united in opposition to Hussein Bahamas.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-13 23:43 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: these folx seem to have a psychiatrically-classical 'царь-батюшка' imaginary friendship w/ trump
mircea_popescu: it's a convenient fiction trope, this, that a merciful god on the moment of closing accounts points out the hole.
mircea_popescu: i suspect though that it's unlikely to really happen. yamamoto went down indignant like the anti-chucker "never ~really~ went down" etc.
asciilifeform: dunno, d00d had perhaps the 1 working brain in the whole outfit. sorta why he was picked for the speshultreatment.
mircea_popescu: elderly father who whole life hammered kid with better notions and interests to "you must be emperor of rome", if eventually presented on death bed with circumstantailly obtained, wholly worthless emperorship much likelier to declare "he was right all along" than to see "holy shit what an idiot i've been"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i suppose ; but worst time of all for moments of clarity.
mircea_popescu: "what goes through a fly's mind as it crashes on windshield ?" "its arse".
asciilifeform: it obv makes no practical diff.
asciilifeform: and not as if anyone was there to write down his 'fuck, really'
mircea_popescu: social media is here to change all that.
mircea_popescu: yet pantsuited hilarity STILL hasn't managed to find the twitter button, seems like.
asciilifeform: 'Пуля попала Штирлицу в голову. «Разрывная», — пораскинув мозгами, догадался Штирлиц.'(tm)(r)
asciilifeform: ( ~= 'a bullet hit stierlitz in his head. 'a dumdum', he deduced, scatter-brained.' )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895836 << so on the basis of this better table neatly presenting data i'm concluding that a) serpent run indeed takes 2.8 us or so ; b) timing data converges within 1/3 s test runs or so ; c) these statements equal to foregoing earlier items which are thus retrospectively deemed correct and finally, and most importantly d) tentatively it seems sjlj adds no measurable time delay on running co
a111: Logged on 2019-02-13 21:40 diana_coman: since it seems it'll take a while until I can add to my data the numbers for sjlj on ave1's gnat as well, here's what I have so far: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/1esL2/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: de over zcx.
mircea_popescu: in fact in some cases it could be the case IT IS ACTUALLY FASTER (to a very small degree)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if you give a damn re exception-propagation speed, prolly oughta measure that. otherwise seems like the docs didn't lie, it dun do anyffin to ordinary jump
mircea_popescu: i'll still want her to fill in the rest of the table ; but tentatively yes. looks like i'll be withdrawing my objection to bvt 's original comments ( http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895233 ) sometime tomorrow. in which case all the better, we just do that and good riddance.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 13:14 mircea_popescu: wasn't the long jump thing slower ~generally~ ?
mircea_popescu: should possibly also do the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895520 test tho (even though on a good compiler, there really shouldn't be much difference between a call and a loop)
a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 18:59 mircea_popescu: basically idea is, a markov chain of callings.
asciilifeform will re-play ffa benchmarks on the longjmp gnat, once the latter's built, but doesn't expect to find any measurable diff
mircea_popescu: they'd last show there if anywhere
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: calls dump register snapshot liquishit on the stack, and inevitably ding the cache, whereas loops not
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: correct
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but it's the job of "optimizing" compiler to keep all that to a low roar.
asciilifeform: the compiler can slim it down to just the return addr, but the latter goes always
mircea_popescu: i've been thinking about how to correctly construct a calling test for this purpose, but i confess nothing i have yet is passing muster. if anyone wants to step in.
asciilifeform: ( otherwise it aint a call, but a 1way ticket, i.e. jump )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ffa built with inlining switched off is actually ok test for ~that~ imho
asciilifeform: lots and lotsa calls in multiple layer of outer loop
mircea_popescu: i'd like a purpose made item, fit in head as such, can keep for later.
asciilifeform can see it
mod6: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/BoTML/?raw=true << Ok, so after installing Cuntoo, I did what I said I'd do, which was test editing the append section and throwing a UUID in there instead of 'root=/dev/sda3'. It didn't work, I did get a kern dump.
mod6: I think that I might be on the right track here though, and I did try a few other things after reading some documentation. For instance, after the above, I changed /etc/fstab to use only UUIDs instead of '/dev/sda{1,2,3}', and then tried that. Same problem essentialy. I also found about 'PARTUUID', which is supposed to help in certain circumstances. Nothing has worked yet...
asciilifeform: mod6: does it boot if /dev/sdb3 ?
mod6: No Sir.
asciilifeform: same type of barf ?
mod6: Then I got on the track that perhaps i do need to have an initramfs.
mod6: Yes.
mircea_popescu: mod6 is the disk hanging off internal port or usb port ?
mircea_popescu: ie, sata or usb ?
mod6: So I went to build one, but that was barfing on me. Which lead me to find this kernel option 'CONFIG_FIRMWARE_IN_KERNEL=y'. Which would help me complete the build of the initramfs. http://www.mod6.net/cuntoo-blog-1/genkern/genkern.jpg
mod6: But I keep getting failures that say "Failed to compile the "all" target. No matter what I do it seems.
mod6: mircea_popescu: It's SATA.
mod6: my disk is a WD 250Gb SSD SATA
mod6: So perhaps im kindof on the right track - use UUIDs where I can, and build an initramfs... however, haven't had a lot of success with building the initramfs yet. I may have to fight through that. But that's the latest update.
mircea_popescu: from what i gather actually setting the correct path (ie, /sda3 or w/e it actually is) should really do it. i don't expect you can just unilaterally set uuids, gotta make them work from the other end too first.
mod6: Oh, i totally felt the same way.
mod6: The days leading up to the blog post, i used nothing but names: /dev/sda{1,2,3} and eschewed UUIDs totally.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it'll do it , supposing that kernel actually sees the disk ( whether it does, is not obv, observe that it dun come up in the kernel barfola )
mod6: But since that was an utter failure, I'm just trying something different because of /dev/disk/by-uuid/ or whatever it is.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform right.
asciilifeform: mod6: seems like you may have build a kernel that dun see your sata chipset.
asciilifeform: mod6: bring up a working barbarian linux on that box and lsmod -v
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it'd be a lot more possible if the same kernel on same machine didn't boot before.
asciilifeform: see what it wants
asciilifeform: waitasec is it actually test with old kernel ??
mircea_popescu: i thought so ?
mod6: certainly possible. seems totally wacky to me that the same kernel config would boot gentoo perfectly, but not cuntoo. note in the wotpaste above that I copied in my /usr/src/linux/.config from gentoo directly and build that config.
asciilifeform: observe that 'old config' != 'old kernel' if the src tree were swapped
mod6: Right, well, cuntoo expands all of those things and build it, you just feed it a config. So if there is something that is "off" about my config with some other slightly different source version, then that might be a part of it.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "In light of the outlaw status being forced upon your organization, it is advisable to begin to operate accordingly." << too bulky contentless. that's supposed to be the closer neh.
asciilifeform: mod6: if you were to take this exact thing, and stick it onto a usb , and then it boots when '/dev/sda3' -- then you will know that the above is it
asciilifeform: ( and you'll then need to find what yer sata is hanging off, and rebuild with it baked in )
mod6: Ok, so you're saying: Do all of the above steps, but instead of using a SATA SSD, inflate cuntoo onto a USB stick?
asciilifeform: supposing, that is, you didn't also manage to produce a kernel that dun see yer usb chip
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: ty, will try lightening up the payload copy for mass distribution
mod6: I did look through the makemenuconfig, there are a lot of added in USB drivers. however, there was one option that I noticed that I should look hard at (all when trying to do the genkernel for different reasons), which is the Intel USB Drivers.
mod6: So, if I take this route, I'll have to make sure those options are turned on for sure.
asciilifeform: all i can see from the paste is that the thing dun see any disks at all.
mod6: I know right!
mod6: It's wild.
mod6: Totally is blowing my hair back.
asciilifeform: mod6: where didja get the kernel srcs for this build ?
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo gotta have a great hook.
mod6: Which is why, in the first place, I thought I had a bad SSD. Which is why I ended up buying a second one just to be sure.
mod6: asciilifeform: everything comes with trinque's cuntoo afaik
mod6: His thing has the stage3 in there iirc.
asciilifeform: it's entirely conceivable that his are moar recent than mod6's older, working tree, and breaks support for mod6's card
mod6: Could be, a solid way to try to prove that is the USB Stick route. Because, I'm not super well versed in SATA kernel drivers.
asciilifeform: ( linux is notorious for 'oh hey we added a new required flag and ha even tho you set x, y, z, device d no longer gets its module because fuckyou ' )
mod6: yup, liqshit.
mod6: it's like, fuck this, I want a "GIVE_ME_EVERYTHING_YOUVE_GOT_WHORE" flag that build every driver known.
asciilifeform: for so long as we're under 'iron babel' and errybody has 9000 types of unique machine, we're stuck with this horror
mircea_popescu: i guess. honestly, i'd expect to see logs reflecting failure to init sata if that were the case.
asciilifeform: mod6: you get a 500MB kernel then, lol
mod6: Shit, 500Mb no problem.
mod6: at least I could figure out wtf and try to pair it down later.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: failure to init caused by 'i have nfi what is this chip' is silent on linux.
mod6: instead of 6900 reboots
asciilifeform: ~why~ is q to ask torvalds when you nail him to the cross, not me
mircea_popescu: i thought some peripherals whined.
asciilifeform: only if 'vendor id' etc ~matched~ and still no dice when init.
asciilifeform: this is how it behaved, from the 1st published kernel and to present day
asciilifeform: silently ignores 'unknown' irons
mircea_popescu: yes, but what i mean, if it manages to build with no sata/no ide it says ; similarily if no netcard ; and i dun recall what else.
mircea_popescu: possibly nokbd ?
asciilifeform: it dun give a damn
asciilifeform: simply barfs like depicted in mod6's paste -- 'where the fuck is / ? halted'
mircea_popescu: my vague memories not fresh enough to pursue this line.
asciilifeform: mine unfortunately quite fresh.
asciilifeform: bsd etc. behave similarly.
asciilifeform: 'unix philosophy'(tm)(r) !!
mod6: The funny part is, it could jsut be this one really obnoxious setting that I'm missing; I feel like it was that way back when I did gentoo in '15.
asciilifeform: fail silently and set house on fire.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895868 << we don't so much care, seeing how we don't intend to have exceptions but exceptionally. if the thing crashes ever, your problems will be in excess of 99, but none of them that "it took one half milisecond extra for burning relic to make it back to earth"
a111: Logged on 2019-02-13 21:59 diana_coman: at least there are no more surprises of huge differences in timings; but I'd still test also with some exception handling since that's supposed to slow sjlj down
mircea_popescu: mod6 it seems rather likely.
mod6: *nod* it's something dumb as fuck
asciilifeform: it comes, in this particular case, from the people who actually do http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896130 -- e.g. shituntu -- whose boot log would be 9000km long if ~every~ device that was simply not found, produced an eggog
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 01:56 mod6: it's like, fuck this, I want a "GIVE_ME_EVERYTHING_YOUVE_GOT_WHORE" flag that build every driver known.
mod6: i just have no idea what.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not every device lol.
asciilifeform: erry module that doesn't find its device, i meant
mircea_popescu: well it couldn't come from THEM, linux existed long before they.
asciilifeform: was always built like this, tho. module that doesn't find its device, in some cases reports (e.g. in mod6's log, the raid) but usually says nuffin.
mircea_popescu: right ; but i expect the sata is like the raid, not like the soundblaster.
mircea_popescu: that's all really.
mircea_popescu: ie, from a cursory look at his published logs, my impression was that the kernel has sata just fine, but the disk's not plugged in the config-set hole or somesuch.
mircea_popescu: now, ianae, so.
asciilifeform: here, have a line from a working box : [ 3.129745] sd 0:0:0:0: Attached scsi generic sg0 type 0
asciilifeform: ^ when finds a sata .
asciilifeform: notice there aint one in his.
mod6: fair enough
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i see 0.971934] SCSI subsystem initialized ?
asciilifeform: all he's got, is a [ 0.971934] SCSI subsystem initialized , which happens when kernel brought up regardless of whether any module matches up to working disk hanger
mircea_popescu: ah. well ok then.
mircea_popescu: this is a good point ; basically i misread that line.
mod6: So next mission is to use a clean USB drive, and inflate cuntoo onto that, and then try?
mod6: See, I kinda thought the SCSI subsystem thing meant that SATA was ready.
asciilifeform: mod6: quickest way to learn wtf, i suspect, is to dump the thing bitwise onto a usb, and boot that, then lsmod -v and diff with your known working set's lsmod -v output.
asciilifeform: mod6: nope , that line gets printed if kernel compiled with scsi option set, regardless of whether any card.
mod6: so, `dd` the entire cuntoo ssd disk onto a usb, then attempt to boot the USB, and then do the lsmod diff between the USB cuntoo and the SSD cuntoo?
asciilifeform: correct
mod6: alrighty then.
asciilifeform: i expect you'll need a root=/dev/sda3 in the kernel cmdline and similar in fstab.
mod6: Might take a bit, but I'll begin work on that tomorrow-ish. Should have something to look at hopefully by Friday evening-ish. I'll inflate an entirely fresh cuntoo.
asciilifeform brb,meatsystems
mod6: I want it ~clean~ and not munged up by whatever other attemps and genkernel fuckery.
mod6: Ok, thank you gentlemen. I appreciate the insight & help.
mod6 f00d
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896084 << what is the reasoning behind this?
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 01:41 mod6: Then I got on the track that perhaps i do need to have an initramfs.
trinque: there's all this metaphoric content without rooting to anything, which makes it hard to track where your head's at to have what with to help
trinque: initramfs is used when the kernel can't mount the root fs without using a program to do something complicated first, i.e. loading firmware, unpacking a squashfs in an embedded device, etc
trinque: the only reason initramfs is used on personal machines is that the users have been lost to sloth and "can't be expected" to build own kernel
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896088 << this is precisely backwards; doing that is the right answer to ^ and ~obviates~ the need for an initramfs for the firmware purpose
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 01:42 mod6: So I went to build one, but that was barfing on me. Which lead me to find this kernel option 'CONFIG_FIRMWARE_IN_KERNEL=y'. Which would help me complete the build of the initramfs. http://www.mod6.net/cuntoo-blog-1/genkern/genkern.jpg
trinque: this is precisely what I do, and I load all manner of "liquishit" hardware (like amd GPUs) without initramfs
trinque: I highly encourage you to not accidentally haul in an artifact of "user can't be expected to" into cuntoo
trinque: very glad to see your experiments with using the UUID labels btw; I'm soon to haul that into the script. I do want to remind that this won't change the genesis that is produced by the bootstrapper.
trinque: I still want to know whether your genesis.vpatch matches mine, and this is at least as important as whether it produced a bootable drive
mod6: So the thinking behind initramfs: 1. I have one on the working gentoo on that box, 2. from what I've read that can help with various kernel related problems
mod6: I'm not a "kernel hacker guy", so I've been down these roads based on trying to emulate what I see working in my other machines, and various online posts in teh gentoo forums and others.
trinque: so "because I have this amulet" I'm not interested in what trinque is trying to teach me about what the amulet is?
mod6: You have to understand, that I'm not trying to piss you off here. I don't even look at it on this level.
mod6: I'm just a guy, trying to boot the thing so I can test something totally not related to kernel mods.
mod6: If going through all the motions to try to figure out what the actual hardware problem is, and it'll get me across the finish line, great. I'll do that, but I think you're acting as if I'm somehow trying to violate you.
trinque: my telling you that you're doing so incorrectly is not an emotion
trinque: nor would "mod6 now knows about initramfs and what they're for" do anything but set you up to understand later tools I have for the republic that actually use the things properly
mod6: trinque: I have little clue of what I'm doing. I'm just trying to solve it, in the only ways that I can.
trinque: do you recall how to interact with the logs? I responded to some lines of yours there. what of them?
mod6: Sometimes that means taking a shot in the dark, even if it's misguided from the point of view of someone who knows better.
mod6: Trying to make an educated guess, or educated experiment I suppose. Are you disappointed that I tried to make the initramfs? If so, why does this bother you so?
mod6: I'm the fool here, not you.
trinque: eh dude, explaining to you what's an initramfs is not calling you a fool.
trinque: this is the entirety of the problem
mod6: Maybe we're talking past eachother a bit here. Anyway, I don't know much about these things. I'm kinda learning bit by bit as I go... it all certainly doesn't "fit in head" or whatever yet.
trinque: lemme come at it another way. suppose your result here, absent my help, appears to be "this hardware only boots with initramfs"
trinque: what is the consequence of that?
mod6: well, that's a win for me, the only thing that sucks is you don't get to make your improvements from my own experience.
mod6: But not matter what happens, I'll be sure to provide you with any information that I can provide. Who knows, maybe this is a shit system or some such.
trinque: so your goal is to have a computer for mod6 on the back of my work, and if it incidentally helps get the cuntoo thing done, w/e
trinque: since I have a fetish for futility, lemme press on
trinque: so now you need an initramfs; what are you going to use to build it?
trinque: genkernel? dracut? ... ?
mod6: I don't quite see it that way, I'm just trying to do Foundation work, that does overlap with the Cuntoo work.
trinque: what's the dependency chain of what you chose? how much additional weight do you bring into the genesis.vpatch for portage?
mod6: So if you can glean soemthing off of my exp. that's great. I just didn't view the problems with my pos box to be super helpful to you.
mod6: Maybe it is, maybe misjudged.
trinque: and by the way, note how easily "I did not read this thing; I just want to use" bloats the holy tree of meaning is illustrated here
mod6: I posted a jpg of the beginning of my genkernel. Basically there is another similar command to make the initramfs. Both end in failure that I spoke about above.
trinque: so then. a core claim I'm making is *this is all I have ever needed to boot a sane linux on commodity hardware for years*
mod6: But alf helped me to realize that there is a way we can still try to diagnose this issue by trying to boot off of USB stick, so I'm going to attempt that first before any more initramfs stuff.
mod6: I'm not sure that I get your meaning.
mod6: Are you saying that your claim is that is what I'm saying, or is that what you are saying?
trinque: I'm saying this is the aim in my building this item.
mod6: Anyway, do you agree with what alf has asked me to try next?
trinque: that we have something to muntz further, and I'll strongly oppose any argument to ADD to it without hard justification
trinque: recall the work with trb, and how much better a patch that removes is than one that adds.
mod6: Ok, I see this as distinctly differnt.
mod6: I'm not asking you to add my posbox foibles into your config. trb/ada/musl that I want to test on there doesn't care what kernel modules are loaded.
trinque: I don't even think your box is a piece of shit.
trinque: any more than my amd zenwhatever thing with 30 firmware to load before GPU will work properly
mod6: Ok, even if its not. I'm just saying I'd never expect anyone to follow the initramfs thing or any other thing. You know way more about what is kosher in gentoo/cuntoo than I do.
trinque: I very much want you on an actual cuntoo because one of the immediate needs is a trb ebuild.
mod6: Cool, yeah, that too.
mod6: no worries, we'll get there.
mod6: I'll try to do this the way that #t sees fit. but, on my own, left to my own decision making (as I don't know much about these things) might be a bit askew.
mod6: Like I said, didn't mean to offend in any sort of manner. I just got excited, thinking I was on the right track, and tried to get the thing up and running. I mean, shit, it's been like 13 or 14 days now of reboots, inflations, etc.
trinque: 0% offended man, I'll ask you to stop guessing at my state.
mod6: Anything that even remotely looks like the finish line seems like a win -- even if it's not.
trinque: even willing to look at your box with you sometime
mod6: lol, not trying to guess your state. your language seems strong, so I sense irritation.
mircea_popescu: he's from texas, they just talk in an accent there.
trinque: the accent is yelling!
mod6: lol. I'm gonna have to do that when reading trinque. Just add accent.
mod6: i suspect that if we did have a beer irl, some of this would be cleared up.
mod6: anyway, im here for you baby.
mod6: and if alf's way seems like a sane thing to try, that's what I'm working on now. otherwise, I'm all ears and can adjust as you see fit.
trinque: word
trinque: proposal is that you investigate what initramfs is, which will lead to an answer on why one worked on the box you had before, which will lead to why you don't need one
mod6: ok, but it is understood that we're talking about the same box though, right?
trinque: yeah, comparing a boot with initramfs to one without would be a fine thing; even better would be for you to bake your own initramfs sometime with say busybox, and have the init script drop to a shell so you can see what it is
trinque: larger context here is I'm not eating a linux distribution by myself
trinque: RECRUITS NEEDED
mod6: ok.
mod6: *nod*
mod6: you know, at one point i did actually handroll an initramfs on cuntoo, at which point I updated the /etc/lilo.conf and when I booted, and it panic'd, it did drop me into a shell.
mod6: but I didn't really know what do with it.
mod6: so i just wiped the disk again and moved on.
mod6: but, I just followed some steps, I didn't know too much about what it was doing, or myself.
mod6: you know? I think learning about it is a fine thing, probably would make me understand the errors of my ways.
trinque is quite familiar with the impulse to torch the thing when it misbehaves, but it's not going to get us a distro we own.
mod6: I suppose there's some good wisdom in that. I wouldn't want mircea_popescu torch his trb if it does weird shit on a 'getinfo' either.
trinque: ftr there are loads of interesting uses for initramfsen; we will have tooling to make them, but it has to come absent the sin of the load-all-modules thing and "lemme go automatically mount whatever root I can find" and miles else
trinque: righto
mircea_popescu: initramfs seems the logical intermediate step to romware.
mircea_popescu: but a lot of this before we care about that.
trinque nods
mod6: Ok, starting small, I got you. I dunno where the fire is either -- I don't know why I'm in any sort of rush here.
mircea_popescu: in any case, on a sane system that's stable there's ~0 reason to have the CODE on disk.
mircea_popescu has been playing the same heroes 2 for 20 years now. if it were on chip it'd have hurt nothing.
mircea_popescu: not like i rebuild it every other week or w/e.
trinque: very little justification for writable root. I've fiddled with the CD burning too.
mircea_popescu: right. but for now, that'll lie as it fell.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 03:04 trinque: I still want to know whether your genesis.vpatch matches mine, and this is at least as important as whether it produced a bootable drive
mod6: Oh, no, I got side tracked. It never did match up for me. Let me check on the latest one that was output.
mod6: thx
trinque: mod6: please post me your genesis somewhere so I can diff if it doesn't match.
trinque: or if it does, so I can diff anyway and cackle with glee
mircea_popescu: trinque nice avatar kekekex
trinque: loller. john k still apparently allowing himself to be unpersoned after having admitted to having teenaged girlfriends, instead of joining the republic.
trinque: the ren and stimpy guy
mod6: hmm, nope didn't verify. I threw in a sha512 of each sigfile just to ensure that I have the correct ones: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/CCU2l/?raw=true
trinque: mod6: can I get the genesis.vpatch ?
mircea_popescu: socialist future has no room for individual creators of beloved mass-cultural icons!!!
mircea_popescu: burgeois-decadent^H^H patriarchy-oppressive!
trinque: nope, there'd be cobain me2 by now if he hadn't eaten it
mircea_popescu: im sure he fucked a bunch of seattle cokewhores without asking them.
mod6: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/g7Y5f/?raw=true << weird, 133682 genesis.vpatch lines long tho, so maybe too big. I'll post it, one sec.
mircea_popescu: kinda lulzy, considering they can't really stand up for five minutes without them. no cobain there to argue for alternative to mp worldview, what's left ?
mircea_popescu: shockingly similar to an autoimmune disease, all this.
mircea_popescu: autoimmune encephalitis ; it actually is a thing.
trinque: no great shock that hating oneself so can't stand on its own forever
trinque: thx mod6
mod6: yup np.
mod6: ok so next marching orders are to not do the USB Stick, and `lsmod -v` compare; but instead, will take a few days to look into initramfs, and then try to build another?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896276 << notably ye olde trb-on-pogo asciilifeform recipe ran off initramfs
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 03:41 trinque: ftr there are loads of interesting uses for initramfsen; we will have tooling to make them, but it has to come absent the sin of the load-all-modules thing and "lemme go automatically mount whatever root I can find" and miles else
trinque: aha!
asciilifeform: but it dun have much use case on pc, unless yer building dick^H^Hskless box for special purpose ( e.g. router )
trinque: mod6: the curious thing is that you have full paths in just *part* of your genesis.vpatch, in the same exact way diana_coman did
trinque: I suspect I have a different vdiff than both of you
mod6: I'm 98% sure that I got my vdiff out of diana_coman's starter_v.zip, lemme double check.
asciilifeform: hm waitasec mod6 , didja ever post yer kernel config ?
asciilifeform: betcha it's fulla 'M'
trinque: yep, whereas I pressed mine to bvt's patch http://btcbase.org/patches/vtools_tempfile_standalone_notmp
mircea_popescu: well at least this discussion's narrowing down the paths issue
mod6: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/zHUbI/?raw=true << vdiff info, built with the gnat '16 blob, and starter_v.zip
trinque: mod6: a/profiles/home/mod6/cuntoo/cuntoo/build/usr/portage/profiles/releases/17.0/package.use.mask << this for example is not a valid path for anything
mod6: trinque: hmm, ok.
mod6: asciilifeform: yeah, one sec.
trinque: it looks like both the symlink and the path symlinked commingled
trinque: phf: ^ this familiar at all?
mod6: http://www.mod6.net/cuntoo-blog-1/trb-test1-kernel-config << asciilifeform my trb-test1 kernel config
asciilifeform: it's got m!! mod6
a111: Logged on 2019-02-09 19:58 asciilifeform: ( change all yer 'M' to a 'Y' .. )
trinque cheats and just boots a moduletronic kernel, then "make localyesconfig" and rebuilds
asciilifeform: rather than fiddling with initramfs fulla modulism, wainot do what asciilifeform does on piz boxen and bake it all =y
mod6: oh crap, maybe overlooked that asciilifeform. I can change and retry if that's the best plan.
asciilifeform: then dun need modulism at all
trinque: lots of decent tools in the kernel makefile; worth building kernels directly (rather than via "genkernel") to get acquainted with them
mod6: Ok, so do `sed -i 's/=m/=y/g' trb-test1`, then rebuild and try again?
mod6: Alright, that's what I'll do.
mod6: Ok, no more '=m', now zeroing drive.
mod6: Once complete, will re-inflate. Will report back more tomorrow. Thanks for help!
BingoBoingo: <trinque> loller. john k still apparently allowing himself to be unpersoned after having admitted to having teenaged girlfriends, instead of joining the republic. << My first thought on reading John K was chicom derp on Bitcointalk, moderator and escrow fellow
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