punkman: I don't see local time in there
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: machine with no keyboard, or display, or presumption of literate owner
asciilifeform: for folks who are seriously working on the problem: i presently suspect that the solution will resemble some mix of 'lamport clock' and 'the firing squad problem'
asciilifeform: yes, they move...
asciilifeform: letting nodes set own clocks based on what they can see on the net is rather like the train pushers.
asciilifeform: i will leave this with one more analogy: why did marching armies use drummers, instead of having each man push the next fellow, like in a crowded train ?
asciilifeform: i shall be doing the equivalent, this week
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu find the time to visit 'arkakao' and load up on the highest octane sugar-bomb you can! and try to conceive of a solution to this mega-conundrum
asciilifeform: because the only alternative is retardation
asciilifeform: in that extreme dysfunction could actually frag the net
asciilifeform: try to remember that we are talking about deploying potentially thousands of these
asciilifeform: whereas if you rely on blocks, rather than nodes, you are permitting miners to induce clockdriftforks!
asciilifeform: (depending on how the clock sync is done)
asciilifeform: drift by more than 2h and you're not only fucked, but will mislead others
asciilifeform: the other thing about the whole 'let's piss on the bitcoin protocol and let blockchain move the clock' thing is that it does ~NOT~ guarantee the required accuracy!
thestringpuller: i vote asciilifeform since he doesn't like leaving the house
asciilifeform: (...and then someone has to set the fucking clocks and wrap them back in the crate? who will it be? you? me? mircea_popescu?)
asciilifeform: but again, having this done would not only multiply the cost of the unit but add many times its cost in logistics to wherever this is done and then again to the destination.
asciilifeform: incidentally, there is even an empty landing pad inside for rtc
asciilifeform: there is ~no shortage~ of parts for this
asciilifeform: adding so much as a shoelace to pogo would multiply the cost.
decimation: the only 'fix' in that case is a separate box that serves time, under your own control
asciilifeform: i'd put an oven oscillator in there, and 50 years of lithium battery, sure
asciilifeform: you go to war with the pogo you have, not the pogo you wish you had, to borrow a bushism
asciilifeform: it has to plug into the wall and go!
asciilifeform: if you set the clock based on what is happening on the bitcoin network in any way, you are then in a state of sin.
asciilifeform: but it is screamingly apparent from the design
asciilifeform: i didn't design the thing
asciilifeform: and never the reverse
asciilifeform: the point which i am trying - and apparently failing - to make, is that the bitcoin protocol as we know it requires time to be an invariant, by which blocks are judged
decimation: why not "reject all blocks before timestamp X" for the purpose of setting clock
asciilifeform: the thing is supposed to be solidly automatic.
asciilifeform: decimation: once we are in the position of trying to 'identify bullshit' we're lost in the sea.
Adlai: these guys have had trouble milking the udders off their cows: https://prohashing.com/help.html#payouts-computation
decimation: and the node feeding bullshit would be easily identified by a running bitcoind
asciilifeform: if you allow it to ever move the rtc at all!
asciilifeform: and so genesis block is more than 2h in the future
decimation: over time, a chain is built which contains timestamps and relative timestamps from the pogo
asciilifeform: decimation: presently, by definition they cannot verify
Adlai: asciilifeform: actually, it also happens to non-crackpot altcoins (if such a thing exists), and multipools need to take care not to mine them too hard and kill their own geese
asciilifeform: pogo is able to keep time, in the relative sense, similar to how msdos did (periodic interrupt)
decimation: do you trust your own clock on the pogo?
asciilifeform: whereas we have no means of agreeing on the time.
decimation: how does anyeone know they aren't being fed bullshit?
asciilifeform: rather than clocks
asciilifeform: say i feed your pogo the entire sequence of blocks 0,5000 with the period times. now it believes that it's 2009 ?
decimation: wouldn't they be rejected if 2 hours away?
asciilifeform: must understand, time is presently a criterion in whether a block is a block
asciilifeform: transmitted just for the purpose of fucking with pogo
asciilifeform: decimation: the blocks can be 'time travelers'
asciilifeform: and to the extent bitcoind depends on it, it is broken by design.
asciilifeform: my point here is that the time thing ~will~ have to be solved, because it is by far the most comically usg-dependent aspect of bitcoin
asciilifeform: punkman: this works only if you are the world champion by an unreasonable margin
asciilifeform: (miners want to fuck up other miners more than they wish to do anything else, it turns out)
punkman: so I use a lot of hashing power for 1 hour and then make you wait 1 month for next block?
asciilifeform: as for why anyone would willingly move the target by solving a harder-than-required one - this ought to be obvious
asciilifeform: (how to make this recurse correctly is an exercise for the reader)
asciilifeform: rather than time or block count
asciilifeform: punkman: the solution, i now realize, is difficulty which ratchets based on actual mass of work
asciilifeform: punkman: for what do you need the infinite growth ?
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 07:09:24; punkman: asciilifeform: i really fail to grasp for what, precisely, it is, that we need the possibility of falling difficulty. << remember Altcoin? do you prefer the possibility of 1 block per month?
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190768 << the solution is 'don't be poor.'
punkman: asciilifeform: how do we do infinite growth on the mining side though?
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 11:52:58; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190714 << i thought alphabetical the most logical tbh.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190971 << absolutely not. the most 'connected' node of the graph ought to live in the center of field of vision, and so forth
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 11:52:03; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190686 << i still do not approve of the proof.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190921 << precisely. what i was suggesting is to monotonically move the target 'harder'.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190911 << perhaps i should explain. dude was an odious, moralizing twerp, who played the 'holier than thou' game for ages. ru law requires ministers to declare income. he declared perhaps 1% of it. nailed fair and square. and if there is some way for him to have made that dough other than straight bribery, monkeys will fly from my arse.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 11:19:01; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190307 << if it makes the svg it made the svg eh.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190906 << if i can't see how it made it, and repeat the process, it is useless to me
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190896 << by far the most interesting thing here is that every cpp programmer needs this. and it is available from dozens of vendors, as winblowz turdware of course. because ~nobody else uses cpp~ for anything
asciilifeform: 'gets its time from the most recent block it accepts' is a logical impossibility given the current algo for 'accept'
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 10:58:01; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re the entire timing discussion : suppose the pogo gets started always with a realtime switch, -time=14blablabla, and after that gets its time from the most recent block it accepts and checks for next ones being within +-7200 seconds.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190838 << pogo has to work when plugged into the wall! what 'switch' ?!! and you cannot learn ~anything~ about the current time from a purported block. this is circular logic!1111 block is only valid ~if~ within 2h of current time. any backflow can and will result in enemies 'nudging' the time
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 10:50:32; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform uh. the one published actually encompasses the first fork. i have other chains (also historical) that aren't wedged, but i had thought yours passed that point ?
shinohai: Oh, the article you must mean
kakobrekla: there was just one possible winning move, short and dont look.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla a, right, volatility went up right then
mircea_popescu: should be the fun of all time.
mircea_popescu: anyway, if he does the assbot thing i'm definitely going to allow selected l2 people to manage f.mpif pcs.
punkman: can't find it in the logs :(
mircea_popescu: in the end it came to exactly the same thing, not scammed anyone to anyone's knowledge, and why exactly would i put so much power in the hands of inept fiat "regulatory bodies"
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 08:27:37; jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-07-2015#1190188 >> in fact, i did once negrate kako for fake "broker of the year" badges...
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190807 << actually, muh intel found the exact stuff fca derps are derping about today, soime point in 2013. kakobrekla got put through some questioning at the time, which iirc is on the public record
mircea_popescu: they both engage in making predictions, which are about as interesting and useful.
mircea_popescu: the names of the places they'll never see. what exactly is the difference between an academitard and a housewife watching discovery channel i shall never know.
mircea_popescu: but hey. professional scholars. all that fits in their head are names.
mircea_popescu: then stolfi wonders whether i want to be this or that title. as if a title is in any way useful or related to me.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 07:51:18; punkman: "professional scholars of international relations" "30 percent of American researchers in the field say that they have a working knowledge of no language other than English, and more than half say that they rarely or never cite non-English sources in their work."
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190800 << which explains why they gotta be both "professionals" and "scholars'. random schmucks not a good enough descriptor, specifically ebcause it fits so well.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 06:55:52; cazalla: well bitcoin group lost like 250k mining so the model is really just finding people to bail em out
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 04:42:30; asciilifeform: other thing is, ideally the graph would be in some logical arrangement
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190714 << i thought alphabetical the most logical tbh.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190686 << i still do not approve of the proof.
mircea_popescu: because "people" of the pale complexion have allowed themselves to be trained in such god-awful conformity, and the space of possibilities has lain fallow for so long, to be shat into by alf's smirking plumbooker, that it's getting fucking filled.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 04:17:52; asciilifeform: and, in the ultimate case, the kind created by somebody who was sure that it would never be looked for.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190669 << there are so many of these by now, all it takes is a little phuctor scratching to send the hive crazy.
mircea_popescu: what is the difference between ntp telling you what time it is and *tp telling you what to observe ?
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 04:01:47; decimation: find predictions for the time they are to occur and compare with your clock under test
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190599 << you have changed nothing in the scheme, just made its problems perhaps less easy to observe because hey, frantic activity with b inoculars now.
mircea_popescu: the "press" is on a repeater mode with that crud
assbot: Bitcoin in Argentina : exactly nothing to do with the derps on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ha9vyF )
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190542 <<==>> http://trilema.com/2014/bitcoin-in-argentina-exactly-nothing-to-do-with-the-derps/
mircea_popescu: we're talking the problems of poorfags here.
mircea_popescu: lmao decimation ends up putting a dime in the pot ?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190446 << riiight. hopefully they call them service packs.
Adlai: eloquence of the mute
mircea_popescu: (yes, there's a smartness of the dumb, like there's a richness of the poor and a cleanliness of the filthy and honesty of politicians and so on and so forth.)
mircea_popescu: they simply say things that bear an impredictable (to them first of all) relationship to reality.
mircea_popescu: then, of THOSE POOLS it turned out that ~50% are too confused to even lie.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 02:26:24; asciilifeform: thestringpuller: unless i seriously misunderstand, 50%+ of the hash rate belongs to folks ~who aren't even running bitcoin~ but a toystore version
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190434 << the hardware belongs to miners. miners direct the hashing at pools, doing very little validation whatsoever. so, 100% of mining power does in fact not run bitcoin at all.
Adlai: mircea_popescu: too bad only the dumb&industrious students will do that. the smart&lazy just go to sipa's charts...
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 02:21:03; asciilifeform: the thing barely survives today, much less ww3
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190423 << experimentally, i have a lot more faith in things that barely survive than in Britannia eternal. experimentally, the former do survive, the latter crash on the jagged shores of time.
mircea_popescu: for students of the bitcoin protocol actually interested in learning how it works, create a list of all block hashes, calculate implied difficulty on that basis, compare to actual difficulty at the time and calculate variance etc. nice graphs to be had.
mircea_popescu: the "difficulty of last solved block" does not exist
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 02:11:39; asciilifeform: difficulty oughta have been defined in relation to the difficulty of the last solved block, solely.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 01:36:51; asciilifeform: so apparently they had to take the bank by storm.
kakobrekla: greek islands are the best. i very much enjoyed them, perhaps mykonos the most. jurov would love it there, im sure.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190323 << bwahahaha who the fuck does these things.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190307 << if it makes the svg it made the svg eh.
mircea_popescu: which is greek in the sense etruria is latin ?
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 00:13:16; asciilifeform: unrelated: folks competing for mircea_popescu's 1 btc prize for therealbitcoin callgraph can strike 'egypt' utility off the list. it is a worthless pile of shit, which produces worthless piles of shit (at least for cpp proggy)
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190266 << so far the balance of what i got was "man this site is confusing" in various tongues.
punkman: "I run the restaurant from 1996, its a family business. I work here with my father and my mother. We only cook traditional Greek food. We accept Bitcoin for payments. They have come 6-8 people pay with Bitcoin from Spain, France, Italy, Ireland, Luxembourg but i hope for more people with Bitcoins"
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 00:13:06; decimation: point being, someone derives time (the iers) from astronomy, sets the cesium, and broadcasts it
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190265 << a very stupid system incidentally. mirroring the unixtime idiocy. just take the cesium, base everytrhing on that.
shinohai: I thought that the 0.1% per 1 BTC transacted was reasonable, as set out in the Declaration of Sovereignty.
mircea_popescu: might have been 0.00001 what they paid, i dun recall. look at the backlog should be obvious
mircea_popescu: iirc thats what they pay.
shinohai: So that explains the slow tx times today
mircea_popescu: which has the excellent side effect of taking the piss out of all the redditard "unbanked" who were used to pay 0 fees.
mircea_popescu: punkman there's some derps putting in like 1mn txn for 1 btc total fees.
mircea_popescu: yeah, basically, whenever the market forces do what they expect they're all market-force-y, and when the market forces tell them to go dangle they're all democaca-y
mircea_popescu: an' in other news, http://36.media.tumblr.com/cd2581c62617b5a509994b1e6cd4c4dd/tumblr_nbetwj6JLL1t0bn4lo1_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190226 << the point that "bitcoin core" = unsafe at any version is really not made often enough.
shinohai: Either gribble is off or I am xD
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re the entire timing discussion : suppose the pogo gets started always with a realtime switch, -time=14blablabla, and after that gets its time from the most recent block it accepts and checks for next ones being within +-7200 seconds.
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 22:34:34; pete_dushenski: "CoinbaseAdrian 30 points an hour ago* : Sorry guys, we're looking into this. It appears to be an issue with our network provider (Cloudflare). We have an urgent ticket open with them and I'll update here with any details." << response to coinbase being offline
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform uh. the one published actually encompasses the first fork. i have other chains (also historical) that aren't wedged, but i had thought yours passed that point ?
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 07:58:09; punkman: http://www.openculture.com/2014/10/when-modern-art-was-used-as-torture-during-the-spanish-civil-war.html
kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190801 < nobody expects the spanish exhibition
jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-07-2015#1190188 >> in fact, i did once negrate kako for fake "broker of the year" badges...
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 07:09:24; punkman: asciilifeform: i really fail to grasp for what, precisely, it is, that we need the possibility of falling difficulty. << remember Altcoin? do you prefer the possibility of 1 block per month?
jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190768 therealaltcoin *does* have a mechanism to scale down difficulty. plenty good does it do.
assbot: Modern Art Was Used As a Torture Technique in Prison Cells During the Spanish Civil War | Open Culture ... ( http://bit.ly/1dJi6kp )
punkman: http://www.openculture.com/2014/10/when-modern-art-was-used-as-torture-during-the-spanish-civil-war.html
punkman: "professional scholars of international relations" "30 percent of American researchers in the field say that they have a working knowledge of no language other than English, and more than half say that they rarely or never cite non-English sources in their work."
trinque: among other things
Vexual: anyway, the bandwitch was already sold
Vexual: smh carried the story of 2.2 milly paid to courts, no names
cazalla: so i hear, took a shot gun to the face and walked away unscatched, prob bullshit story
Vexual: some cop got shot in the head last night in melb too
Vexual: but the 2nd had less vanstone
Vexual: i missed the first one
Vexual: *theme
punkman: asciilifeform: i really fail to grasp for what, precisely, it is, that we need the possibility of falling difficulty. << remember Altcoin? do you prefer the possibility of 1 block per month?
Vexual: i think i mentioned the free rent
Vexual: to have been a fly on the wall
cazalla: yeah, that lee guy uses it as proof he has a solid reputation in the bitcoin community.. hai guyz i run a bitcoin meetup so pls gief me 20 mirrion dorrah
Vexual: i like the model
Vexual: dunno when the lease is up
cazalla: well bitcoin group lost like 250k mining so the model is really just finding people to bail em out
Vexual: i like the model
cazalla: for something like 0.5% of the hashrate
cazalla: well that is where bitcoin group claim they mine, that and china
Vexual: i think maybe the spoonies in iceland is rented
Vexual: yes, but they did it smooth like
cazalla: i read it last night.. they want 20 million to buy more miners with
Vexual: u say they obtained asicminer hashes in jan tho?
Vexual: i havent read the prospectus
Vexual: 3 months free commercial rent, sublet desks at the same rate, voila
Vexual: they kinda ghosted after that
asciilifeform: rather than just 'what fits'
Vexual: i saw funkensteins man playin, i could smell the 03
asciilifeform: well these every civilized person knows
asciilifeform: lamport (same as of the 'generals') clock.
mats: i was under the impression 'diff' implements a variation on 'needleman-wunsch'
asciilifeform: the 'byzantine generals' paper.
asciilifeform: other pertinent maths include the proof of why 'homomorphic obfuscator' is impossible in the general case
asciilifeform: this was not taught to them
asciilifeform: e.g., my current colleagues were very surprised when i told them about needleman-wunsch and how one can make a non-retarded binary 'diff'
mats: if the latter is even necessary, i have no idea
asciilifeform: then have to be very particular
asciilifeform: and that the only opponent is 'raghead' in goatfuckistan
asciilifeform: and, in the ultimate case, the kind created by somebody who was sure that it would never be looked for.
asciilifeform: the kind you find by looking where literally nobody else has thought to look, perhaps even using tooling that literally no one else has.
mats: otherwise i wouldn't subject myself to it
asciilifeform: decimation: you don't. the notion was that 'too many to hang'
mats: thats the primary thing driving my interest in studying windows at all
decimation: asciilifeform: yeah 'snow' seems to try to maintain a dht across the peers
asciilifeform: the kind typically done by armies of coolies, 'fuzzing'
asciilifeform: mats: even the exploiting, i find, is deadly boring
mats: others wanna exploit it
asciilifeform: the thing to do with shit is to burn it.
asciilifeform: because they are expressions of surrender, of 'willing to live with' a pit of liquid shit
asciilifeform: (despite pretenses to the contrary)
asciilifeform: just like tor dies if the directory servers are ever unplugged.
asciilifeform: because ultimately there are servers and 'magic' ips.
decimation: "snow is a layer 3 virtual network that abstracts the underlying network and allows public keys to be used in place of IP addresses. "
decimation: asciilifeform: https://github.com/zrm/snow < I thought this could be it, but then saw the deps list
asciilifeform: as in having keys in the box at all when it ships
decimation: or a large collection of them run by enthusiastic hobbyists
Vexual: let the nodes confirm it
decimation: even hitler can't move the moon's path
decimation: asciilifeform: true, but if one person can find time and verify for themselves, they can provide services for others
asciilifeform: pogo needs to plug into the wall and immediately fight
decimation: the point about occultations is that you can get tables of when they are supposed to occur for your area. you don't need a fancy telescope, usually cheap bionoculars would suffice for observation
Vexual: you'll find the reduction tables for free at .mil
decimation: asciilifeform: http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/auth-ntp.cfm < apparently you need to sign up by post if you want to receive 'authenticated time service' from usg
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 19:39:57; ben_vulpes: i'm beginning to suspect that booting bitcoin nodes cannot be automated in the same way that diddling one's gpg cannot be automated.
ben_vulpes: <ascii_field> mike_c: all the signs point to us trying to solve the utterly wrong problem. << http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-07-2015#1189757 << and by "diddle" i mean "use", if that wasn't clear.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: punkman: i don't understand the point of your gpgdiddling link
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: hence, i think, the confusion
decimation: mats: bagels7 is the trans 'person'