mircea_popescu: (but this is perhaps the most obscure field of all scholarship - constructive cultural antrhopology, which is to say : construct FUTURE development of science on the basis and with the methods available in X context.
asciilifeform: romans could very well have 'proved' that their arithmetic is 'optimal'
funkenstein_: see e.g. the god algorithm for cube solving
asciilifeform: however, there are still interesting boojums:
asciilifeform: highest compliment paul e. could give a colleague was to say 'this is from The Book'
asciilifeform: he liked to say that god had a book, containing the best possible proof of each theorem
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: didja know that paul erdos had a story about these ?
mircea_popescu: it is smart enough to be the END of a class.
mircea_popescu: i propose that gcd is one of the few smart things we know.
funkenstein_: the reason wealth is often correlated with dumb is probably similar to why gps ownership is correlated with poor navigation skills
asciilifeform: such as the bacteria that eventually eat everybody's girlfriend
asciilifeform: there very much ~is~ such a thing as 'stupid and effective'
mircea_popescu: they're not so stupid, and the measure of their superior intelligence is to be found in the joyous cries of the noble roman's girlfriend.
mircea_popescu: 't woprry honey, they're stupid"
mircea_popescu: that's what late empire matrons tell their effette offspring that just lost at the races to the hearty barbarians : "don
funkenstein_: the point at which Americas so teemed began in 1600 or so
mircea_popescu: funkenstein_ << that's basically the ideology of butthurt.
asciilifeform: back to the miners, i say that if money were the handy iq test mircea_popescu suggests it is, this kind of situation would be quite impossible.
mircea_popescu: iirc the vikings did a little recuntissance
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and at some point, america teemed with fucktarded savages and nobody came to kill the males and rape the females.
asciilifeform: so what i'm saying is, pluto is sitting there, made of priceless unobtainium, and schmucks are schmucking around
mircea_popescu: they don't understand that if you sell for yourself, and not to put in a desktop, you have diff engineering constraints
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they're just going through the motions. they don't really know what they're doing, nobodyu sat dowqn and thought things through.
asciilifeform: creates the heat nightmare
asciilifeform: why the fuck does 'as much has as possible' have to be packed in one die ?
asciilifeform: i'll name just one (because i am not in the business of handing out free advice to derpatronicists) -
asciilifeform: there is a whole array of strange things that miner builders do, which puzzle me greatly
mircea_popescu: they lost.
asciilifeform: (that the hidden boojum would not stay hidden, is a no-brainer. idea would be to exploit the first-mover advantage, naturally)
mircea_popescu: hard to explain, but i will give the anecdotic.
asciilifeform: what's the logic here?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes. chief among them, a poor handling of cooperation.
mircea_popescu: they are kept in warehouse for same reasdon you want untouched pogo
asciilifeform: partly this is on account of the derpitude of keeping them all in a warehouse, rather than having chumps pay for power
mircea_popescu: of course, sold != deployed, but the error isn't great.
mircea_popescu: do the math, sometime. a miner earns 0.2% or some shit.
asciilifeform: (afaik, there are still no true asics!)
mircea_popescu: and if it were the case the commercial value of piece of pluto ten times exceeded the commercial cost of sending miner ?
asciilifeform: not impossible, but not strictly a matter of 'wanting to' either
mircea_popescu: but if it does exist, then yes, it will necessarily be found eventually.
asciilifeform: in that it is sitting 'there' to be dug up
mircea_popescu: or whatever, your hero also bleeds, there's a lengthy cultural history of this idealisation problem.
mircea_popescu: this is traditonally pointed out to the shy young male as "you know, even the lady of your heart farts"
mircea_popescu: i am merely pointing out that if both things you discuss exist, then both necessarily, by definition of existence, are approachable.
asciilifeform: which is the item mircea_popescu is describing as not existing? and which - not ?
mircea_popescu: the curse of existence is that it is approachable. just like a tool has its uses, irrespective of a maker's intention.
mircea_popescu: inasmuch as they both exist, they both exist. inasmuch as the one you're good at doesn't exist, you're basically wanking.
mircea_popescu: "oh it can be the case i can lift rocks but not railroad metal"
mircea_popescu: and that score is how much money they have.
asciilifeform: whereas i contend that it is possible to be 'napoleon' with theorems and 'spineless piece of shit' with girlz
mircea_popescu: there is an ennumerable list of people by their intelligence. this usually reduces to sorting them by score
funkenstein_: there is a special space in the hilbert space of stupidity for those who think intelligence can be well described with a scalar
mircea_popescu: how come they're now divisible with 2.
asciilifeform: other thing is that the meat brain is not a von neumann machine, and has specific circuits for certain problems. it is possible to walk around with those damaged and others - functional
mircea_popescu: problem is they're dumb as rocks, is all.
mircea_popescu: they're actually very derpy.
mircea_popescu: and yes, redditards are not necessarily unintelligent in the sense of derp.
mircea_popescu: then intelligence is no sort of intelligence at all.
mircea_popescu: if one is purportedly intelligent, how is it then that his brain does not work intelligently ?
mircea_popescu: but that's not where the problem lies. the problem lies at the spot where you propose there exists an "intelligence" that nevertheless does not have control of the processor.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: well, the impression i get is that you think 'will' is a scalar
mircea_popescu: me ? you're the one to fire. you proposed pink shapeless.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you ready for the will/intelligence discussion ?
decimation: in the case of bitcoind that would work
asciilifeform: why the ceremonies.
asciilifeform: decimation: i'd have bitcoind snarf time straight from the rtc chip
decimation: but you could periodically bang the clock
asciilifeform: why the fuck not ?
decimation: to discipline the kernel timebase
asciilifeform: then why ntp
decimation: asciilifeform: you can configure ntp to ignore the network and use RTC
mircea_popescu: maybe on the better ones
asciilifeform: the very same
decimation: unfortunately the really cheap ($1) rtcs available do not come with specs, it would be interesting to know what they are
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's still a very good clock by the looks of it.
asciilifeform: decimation: the thing you linked to costs more than pogo...
mircea_popescu: like humans, actually. either die as a youthful ape, or else get cancer, or else... age 150
mircea_popescu: yeah. like hdds : either dead in six months or good forever.
decimation: but as you can see it isn't cheap, the chip is about $9 in single quantity and about $4 in units of 1000
decimation: likely, the cr1203 battery wouldn't last that log
decimation: my reading of the spec sheet is that combined aging and temperature stability (assuming 0-40C) would be about 8.5 ppm
asciilifeform: 'brother can you spare a dime'
punkman: the "spam" is now up to 0.00034513 fee
asciilifeform: what's on the drive ?
assbot: Project Zero: Exploiting the DRAM rowhammer bug to gain kernel privileges ... ( http://bit.ly/1fr43lp )
mircea_popescu: the dram thing ?
shinohai: I dunno. I get the dev mailing list.
assbot: You rated user danielpbarron on 29-Jul-2014, with a rating of 3, and supplied these additional notes: Logician in charge of logistics..
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for lobbes from 1 to 2 with note: #eulora logs bot
assbot: You rated user lobbes on 06-Feb-2015, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: Well... he did teach himself how to view a directory....
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mats from 1 to 2 with note: http://trilema.com/2013/so-whos-running-the-courts-circus/#comment-113478 ; helping people get pogos, stuff.
assbot: So who's running the Courts circus ? on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1fr25Bn )
mircea_popescu: !rate mats 2 http://trilema.com/2013/so-whos-running-the-courts-circus/#comment-113478 ; helping people get pogos, stuff.
assbot: You rated user mats on 08-Apr-2015, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: Lotta paralegal work on http://trilema.com/2013/so-whos-running-the-courts-circus/.
mircea_popescu: yes there ios a known workaround. has been known since 1985. FUCK UNICODE.
mircea_popescu: Workaround There is no known workaround at this time.
asciilifeform: just the raw animal
mircea_popescu: you may be the only one here seriously following gentoo.
asciilifeform: incidentally, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191327 << this thread fell through the cracks, i think
mircea_popescu: that way, you won't need "security patches" in the first place.
mircea_popescu: "we will stop deliberately adding holes to these versions aftyer this date, and you are please asked to upgrade because we won't be sending patches a quarter afterwards, either"
mircea_popescu: non sequitur prize of the year.
mircea_popescu: "As per our previous announcements and our Release Strategy (https://www.openssl.org/about/releasestrat.html), support for OpenSSL versions 1.0.0 and 0.9.8 will cease on 31st December 2015. No security updates for these releases will be provided after that date. Users of these releases are advised to upgrade."
mircea_popescu: and yet, "we do not feel compelled to denounce the person who added this hole in our codebase, and call for a boycott from everyone on it against their sorry ass. because, fundamentally... it's us."
asciilifeform: (though it's been a while since i looked at the turdation's tree - perhaps they do ?)
mircea_popescu: "During certificate verification, OpenSSL (starting from version 1.0.1n and 1.0.2b) will attempt to find an alternative certificate chain if the first attempt to build such a chain fails. An error in the implementation of this logic can mean that an attacker could cause certain checks on untrusted certificates to be bypassed, such as the CA flag, enabling them to use a valid leaf certificate to act as a CA and "issue"
asciilifeform: not the cert crud
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller yeawell...
punkman: "However, a Fitbit device Risley was wearing told a different story, the affidavit shows. The device, which monitors a person’s activity and sleep, showed Risley was awake and walking around at the time she claimed she was sleeping."
asciilifeform: but overall i'm much less allergic to the idea of letting ntp adjust a running clock by a percent now and then
asciilifeform: decimation: not afaik. probably best to assume the worst.
asciilifeform: these clocks would still have to be ~set~, but it can be done en masse, once.
asciilifeform: can be attached to the gpio in pogo
asciilifeform: could probably do several hundred in a weekend, if they were sent to me disassembled
asciilifeform: hence sanity-check rather than reliance
jurov: just that in your scenario of hostile isp and everything, they will be yet more easy to block than time.windows.com
jurov: if we agree to ship with pogos also 100 of authed ntp servers, I'm all for it
jurov: we're stuck with ntp since you rejected everything other short of bitcoin reimplementation
asciilifeform: ntp, on other hand, is a pants-down unauthenticated plaintext (for reasons explained previously, this cannot really be helped)
asciilifeform: jurov: the particular example, 'gossip', ~is~ jam tomorrow, yes. but it is possible to run encrypted tunnels of various sorts even today.
asciilifeform: so in that sense it is 'usg institution' in exactly the way my house, and my earthly carcass, are
asciilifeform: once 'gossip' is running, the only thing enemy will be able to do is pull plugs
jurov: and i keep telling you they already do cuz internet *is* usg institution
asciilifeform: jurov: gotta understand, my allergy to ntp is more of a 'reason from causes, not from purposes'-theorem application
jurov: asciilifeform: and my idea is that pogos will be together with other computers behind the NAT
asciilifeform: or for that matter, in the original
asciilifeform: jurov: idea is that no one will 'notice weird time', nodes will just silently drift off the network
decimation: asciilifeform: read the description of room 641a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
asciilifeform: we launch the pogos, and suddenly 'ntp is obsolete, dontchaknow,' here is a new replacement by poettering, 85% consensus1111!!!1111!!! within weeks, plug pulled on ntp servers
asciilifeform: i can envision other scenarios
assbot: Logged on 20-02-2015 03:34:05; mircea_popescu: In addition, anti-fascism was never to have as cheap as today. Previously, he could cost you your life, today it costs no more than lip service among peers - and heard to this, the exclusive circle of the upright, decent, brave. The fighters against law form the peerage of enlightened society. Or even a shot polemical: Here is an indulgence trade takes place; the moral superiority can be acquired sim
asciilifeform: it won't happen every day, naturally. just when 'national s333k000r1ty' requires a stinkbomb dropped on the network - to keep a certain tx from getting relayed, say
assbot: Logged on 09-07-2015 08:50:06; jurov: or try to precisely pinpoint which packet is from pogo and which is from other machines?
assbot: Logged on 09-07-2015 08:41:10; jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-07-2015#1194359 so there should be plenty examples of usg diddling a traffic on the backbone, could you please post one?
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-07-2015#1194783 << 'quantuminsert' and 'ferretcannon', just off the top of my head (from the snowden papers)
punkman: "I wish I had the money to setup enough miners myself to get 95% hashing power and just freaking fork already."
thestringpuller: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3cnobx/regarding_raising_the_1mb_block_size_limit_just/ << for those interested in some more "hard fork lulz"
gribble: The operation succeeded.
thestringpuller: ;;later tell mircea_popescu On Qntra you said, "This is a resource war and you people are poor." Well some poor redditard was venting this morning and in his rage said, "I wish I had the money to...do xyz". Ironic how denial turns to anger, almost like stages of grief.
assbot: Dot-dash-diss: The gentleman hacker's 1903 lulz - tech - 27 December 2011 - New Scientist ... ( http://bit.ly/1SaI79R )
punkman: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228440.700-dotdashdiss-the-gentleman-hackers-1903-lulz.html
punkman: "Berlusconi, 78, will not have to serve the sentence as the statute of limitations expires later this year, well before a final ruling will have been reached on appeal."
assbot: Silvio Berlusconi sentenced to 3 years for bribing Italian senator | World news | The Guardian ... ( http://bit.ly/1CqY7mJ )
punkman: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/08/silvio-berlusconi-sentenced-to-3-years-for-bribing-italian-senator
jurov: or make buth m$/google move the servers to different IPs? no way that wouldn't get noticed, actually would be useful signal for us
jurov: or try to precisely pinpoint which packet is from pogo and which is from other machines?
jurov: say, let's put time.windows.com or google's addy among there and make the occassional packet look like systemd or windows emit
shinohai: It is EXACTLY like them
jurov: and it needs so much manpower that someone from "terrorist-packets-on-backbone-diddling-dept." would already spill the beans
BingoBoingo: shinohai: If you must link to reddit no np.reddit links, for they are a trap to preserve their platform
jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-07-2015#1194359 so there should be plenty examples of usg diddling a traffic on the backbone, could you please post one?
funkenstein_: could also be who i was rolling with at the time
BingoBoingo: funkenstein_: Nah, they don't want hippies, chase away merely warm bodies
funkenstein_: sheriff shows up sometime after you put something valuable there
BingoBoingo: WHich is problem. Even if you shoot sheriff, there exists deputy
decimation: BingoBoingo: there's plenty of 'wasteland' out west
Vexual: the eyes have it
BingoBoingo: Especially the last point because sheriff usually enforces abadon remaining verboten
BingoBoingo: <decimation> those 50 acres are either owned by monsanto or abandoned today << Please point me to 50 US acres that are truly abadon. No "owner" no renter, no Sheriff.
mircea_popescu: well... keynesian logic. if consumption drives production then clearly the economy's never been ion a better shape
decimation: "we are the ones we have been waiting for"
asciilifeform: 'no there isn't'
mircea_popescu: one of the lulziest electroal slogans here (in the line of "podremos vivir mejor", of course) was... "hay mas futuro"
decimation: those 50 acres are either owned by monsanto or abandoned today
mircea_popescu: they wanna be independent
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes. like the us did it back when it mattered.
mircea_popescu: give it to the people going deeply inside.
asciilifeform: where else? in pampas, to the pampas cats?
asciilifeform: at any rate, down in the log, i point out that it would be absolutely trivial to serve diddled ntp solely to known btc nodess.
assbot: Logged on 09-07-2015 02:13:37; asciilifeform: the coasts are where usg hands out payola.
asciilifeform: merchant shop - fails every other day
decimation: and that's the unimportant shit
asciilifeform: i'll bite. what else will perma-wedge if usg clock moves 2h into the past for a day ?
asciilifeform: at some point i ~will~ locate the pieces to make something like pogo en masse
mircea_popescu: but the idea throughout, at least in my head, was to have something to give new bloods
mircea_popescu: well, an item has the advantage that it can be used as it can be used, rather than as can be intended.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform as i said, this wasn't to my mind related to the p2p relay thing
decimation: but they might only tunnel udp
asciilifeform: the most problematic aspect, possibly
decimation: other than as an orifice
decimation: better yet, build one in the shape of a power strip (with wifi) and install in local starbucks
asciilifeform: is that you can stuff it in broom closet, camouflage with old bum rags, get on motorcycle and never see the place again.
asciilifeform: the ~only~ advantage pogo has over pc
decimation: or alternatively "Step one: after booting, ensure the pogo has acquired accurate time"
decimation: "Step one: configure an accurate ntp server. if you don't know how to check the time, ask your parents"
asciilifeform: ethernet jack in broom closet ?
decimation: if we were to ditch leap seconds, I would need to know the 'current delta' to predict cesium from sunrises and vice versa
mircea_popescu: the idea was to make use of net jacks in people's houses
asciilifeform: i must confess that i'm not 100% clear on the primary mission. but did have the distinct impression that it involves making use of net jacks that don't have literate and attentive humans attached to them
funkenstein_: decimation, you miss the long cycle, but thanks for the distinction between leap second and leap year
assbot: Logged on 09-07-2015 01:34:14; asciilifeform: not from under the bed of the gurlz mircea_popescu picks up and pogopregnates
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-07-2015#1194235 << i really don't think that's the primary mission for it
BingoBoingo: <decimation> the only reason leap seconds are even a thing is because clocks have become more precise than the sun << No, it is because Sun and Cesium disagree
decimation: there are three important periodic behaviours. the orbit of the earth about the sun, (lesser - moon about the earth), the rotation of the earth about its axis, and the vibration of cesium atoms. leap seconds syncronise earth's rotation with cesium. calendar synchronizes earth's rotation with its orbit
asciilifeform: i described the 'death ray balance' envisioned by tesla.
asciilifeform: we haven't invented the mechanism !
funkenstein_: yeah. the mayans had a better system
asciilifeform: how are they to agree ?
mircea_popescu: there is no policy.
decimation: okay, if it's political influence, what's the policy?
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> ... << the going rate in that market is a few hundred. << I read the original message as hope for a winning "ticket"
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-07-2015#1194574 << moved the clock. hence the clock thread.
mircea_popescu: decimation if this facetious "precision" were the point, it wouldn't be t here and t+1 hour a km away.
mircea_popescu: funkenstein_ turtles all the way down.
funkenstein_: the concept of "fiat time" is interesting. If we are going to think about what is money ourselves instead of believing the guy in the funny hat, should we also do the same when asked what time it is?
decimation: the only reason leap seconds are even a thing is because clocks have become more precise than the sun
BingoBoingo: <trinque> close enough to drive to seattle shortly, but far enough to not know it << I would not mind life in Duquoin Illinois if I could support myself there. Trains to Chicago and St Louis, bars walkable. Secondary State Fair. Just everything else... ick
mircea_popescu: the original leap second is http://trilema.com/2015/this-is-why-medicine-is-not-a-liberal-profession-but-a-servile-career/#selection-229.0-229.213
mircea_popescu: decimation there is no "sun does" immediately. sun doesn't. what there is, is, "here's what i say the sun does".
assbot: Logged on 09-07-2015 01:22:46; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193979 << mircea_popescu misunderstood my point entirely. which was, that it is possible to have arbitrarily original ideas in, e.g., mathematics, while being certifiably worthless at 'making phriends and influencing people'
mircea_popescu: this is a power not to be neglected in the slightest.
assbot: Logged on 09-07-2015 01:17:02; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193949 << virtually all of them do, however. whether ~i~ choose to run ntp or not does not change the fact that the bulk of the network (including - though i can only suspect! - the mining bulk) does.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-07-2015#1194155 << unreliably. maybe they decide to stop.
mircea_popescu: mod6 iirc asciilifeform saw the same wedge spot for a bit.
assbot: Logged on 09-07-2015 00:53:52; asciilifeform: at least 10% of the page should be occupied by letters.