mircea_popescu: let them run on tcp/ip, should be fun to watch.
mircea_popescu: otherwise, the chump herd is eminently handle-able. the havok they can wreak by employing udp amps, not.
kakobrekla: you are all being theoretical. in practice you stop udp at least one step before the server in any way you particularity like and be done with it.
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 14:57:20; mircea_popescu: i find it kinda curious that asciilifeform and decimation can at the same time hold the discussion of political time we had recently in mind, and ALSO think breaking udp, or doing away with ntp is a bad idea.
mircea_popescu: and you've never answered ot the main point here. http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-07-2015#1218091
mircea_popescu: it's the dumbass services currently sitting on udp.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's not the "million chump botnet"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu volunteers to shoot it, not realizing that the dog-kicker will kick every dog mircea_popescu ever bends to pet
asciilifeform: go, 'feel safe' because you went along with usg's transparent attempt to ban the only presently working single-packet transmission medium.
asciilifeform: but will point out that the million-chump botnet can just as easily transmit syn flood as udp crud
mircea_popescu: your isp never had the problem, is all.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you're basically falling fore the "shared hosting" bit
asciilifeform: my isp clearly did not get defrauded in the same way as mircea_popescu's - because their six-figure machine does not as a result go down
asciilifeform: through the window ?
asciilifeform: because how are they to walk in?
kakobrekla: iirc server saw about 800 megs of the 5 gigabit incoming garbage
kakobrekla: i am at online.net, recommended by davout (paymium). they have serveral levels of infrastructure to mitigate attacks.
mircea_popescu: everything that gives idiots voice is the avatar of evil.
mircea_popescu: decimation udp is widely deployed in the hands of idiots.
decimation fails to comprehend the difference between 'udp bad' and 'routing single ip packets good'
kakobrekla: as far as i can tell the attacker of qntra (trilema?) is the same as it was of bitbet last ddos.
mircea_popescu: and the general point is udp does not belong.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla i might. atm not really a big enough deal, whatever, some people can't read trilema for half a day or w/e. but we were discussing the general point.
mircea_popescu: decimation yes, unfortunately, yhet another advantage for shithole cloud. "hey, we drop udp at least". exactly the good cop bad cop alf was proposing. but i am not moving to fuckingf cloud, and im not using fucking cloudflare and so fucking om.
jurov: before udp, this originally happened to icmp, which then got filtered routinely... little did that help
mircea_popescu: paint my nails and call me mary what the fuck is this.
mircea_popescu: what, jam tomorrow, maybe one day ima get gossipd over udp, perhaps, who knows ? meanwhile half the remaining usg online is BASED, and requires udp to survive at all ?
mircea_popescu: i find it kinda curious that asciilifeform and decimation can at the same time hold the discussion of political time we had recently in mind, and ALSO think breaking udp, or doing away with ntp is a bad idea.
decimation: ntp has a fucktarded exploit - that makes neither 'exchange of time' nor 'udp' retarded
mircea_popescu: i still wish udp died, and with it all the "Services" it provides. starting with dns, ntp and come to think about it
mircea_popescu: nevertheless...
mircea_popescu: it being written is the problem. as always.
mircea_popescu: in any case : if it were the rule that udp gets dropped universally, i wouldn't have to have above convo with provider.
asciilifeform: not as theoretical as mircea_popescu might think
mircea_popescu: who the fuck is going to create a syn flood for you.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform stop being theoretical on me. sure same load, not same amplification available.
asciilifeform: throw out your filter then
mircea_popescu: udp is the problem atm.
mircea_popescu: neither.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: so then you get flooded with TCP SYNs. same difference.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you gotta understand the protocol stack.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the sort of machine that currently goes down is well i nthe six figure range.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: your machinery goes down even when you instruct it to drop all udp on the floor ?
mircea_popescu: me to isp "turn off fucking udp altogether, it's stupid" isp to me "you'll have toi buy the trunk"
decimation: how many of the muppet's packets were signed?
decimation: no need for cpu either
asciilifeform: it is relevant to having created this bizarre situation where mircea_popescu thinks that tcp somehow solves ANY of the problems discussed earlier
mircea_popescu: what the usg does or doesn't do, wants or doesn't want, etc is irrelevant to everything, usg included.
mircea_popescu: dude srsly. the fact that jews favour marriage is no argument pro or against.
asciilifeform: they would much rather that everyone announce, for usg's ease of snoopage, when they are beginning to speak, and to whom, for how long, which order the bytes lay down in.
asciilifeform: usg never liked the lack of inspectorial insight that udp creates. so they have deliberately set up this situation, long ago
asciilifeform: this is the one and only reason it was ever possible.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: realize that udp ddoes only ever existed because the net is willing to route packets 'from victim's' machine to the idiot tv boxes, who 'answer' them
asciilifeform: don't fall for the 'good cop'
asciilifeform: and the way to avoid it is by resisting, unconditionally, any and all seemingly-reasonable suggestions by usg tools to constrict the permissible set of the net.
asciilifeform: the unfortunate place we're going to is where gossip packets can only be emitted, received, or routed by os that we personally issue; and will only travel on cables to and from mircea_popescu's house
asciilifeform: any protocol where someone gets something, anything more expensive than a bullet, for showing up at the gate,
decimation: and it's not exactly like it is hard to game the tcp state machine
asciilifeform: like the fucking orphan blox
asciilifeform: it is tcp which is the ultimate braindamage.
decimation: in fact, you need not put the true address of the recipient in the ip header as long as you can arrange to be somewhere to 'hear' it
decimation: yes, ascii's wot-signed udp would be the first application for ip-to-namespace
asciilifeform: of the direct, unabashed kind
asciilifeform: it is also the foremost usg organ
mircea_popescu: and speaking of udp : fucking dns definitely must go away. stupidest kludge o nthe whole internet.
asciilifeform: the only way it could possibly work as it presently does is by storing ~some~ history
mircea_popescu: lobbes can you discern if he has a point, does the cache get 0'd out if it looks at a zero feed ?
decimation: which is why you need the entire state
asciilifeform: 'back' is 'item is in memory cache but now isn't there when i load, it must have un-happened'
lobbes: it should use the url as a PK
asciilifeform: decimation: simply storing the last 20 or so would do it
lobbes: yeah, I think that is the problem, which it should be able to handle
mircea_popescu: ok, so could it be that the lobbesbot sees new dates decides new articles ?
asciilifeform: i explained this in agonizing detail. it is in the log.
asciilifeform: there is ONLY time-submitted.
asciilifeform: lobbes: i warned many times that the dates on phuctor are meaningless
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so the rss feed is exactly identical pre and post restart. how would the bot know something changed then
lobbes: I do notice the dates change on phuctor RSS
asciilifeform: then diffs from this null set when it comes back.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so if i restart trilema, it doesn't pop them out again
asciilifeform: causes the replay.
mircea_popescu: so any idea what causes the replay ?
lobbes: well, I'm using the default 'supybot' RSS plugin
lobbes: williamdunne: if your bot can store teh history, feel free to take over. If not, then first one there wins, I guess ;/
mircea_popescu: could it just do the announcements once ?
lobbes: there, no more spammy
lobbesbot: lobbes: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: same place the usable docs for bitcoin are.
asciilifeform: where is the boundschecking cpu ?
mircea_popescu: now make the economics work.
mircea_popescu: just as soon as the economics make sense, your x86 nemesis is gone. two years, tops.
mircea_popescu: there's no lockin in computing generally.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there was no legacy lockin in bitcoin !
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider how rapidly bitcoin mining ditched the cpu, and then the gpu, to get a feel of just how unstable this domination you perceive is.
asciilifeform: trinque: i did this experiment, and found quite a few variations (machine version strings - srsly, wtf gcc ? an automated annihilator for these is a necessity) ; optimizations
trinque: asciilifeform: I did a binary diff between your binary posted to the ML and mine using bsdiff; the result was about 60kb
mircea_popescu: there's no alternative in a "moore's law" shithole, for very good reasons.
mircea_popescu: dja see the difference between "hmm, i intuit in my urine that x86 sucks" and "lolut, 120v?
asciilifeform: the situation of 'drivers', for instance, is quite analogous to situation where every block of flats has own voltage, frequency, and mains socket shape that the landlord felt like drawing on a napkin.
asciilifeform: just pointing out the incongruity of 'x86 is winner'
asciilifeform: x86 'works' is perhaps the ultimate illusion.
mircea_popescu: nah. one sticks around because it works. the other because it's the best alternative. you don't like either of them, it's true, but that fact does not alter the reality.
asciilifeform: but they stick around for same reason
mircea_popescu: not in the slightest.
mircea_popescu: why's anyone's poverty, intellectual or otherwise, a criterion ?
mircea_popescu: i imagine as long as "9 volt batteries or hunt rats by candlelight" is the choice, there's going to be a lot of "9 volt" systems out there too.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ergo, for so long as anyone has the choice of '120v or hunt rats by candlelight', there will be 120v around
asciilifeform: when extracting head from ass means 'you get to rebuild the things no one knows how to build now'
asciilifeform: what of it, is that this 'gift keeps on giving' even after washington is buried in the sand.
mircea_popescu: all the world is on 220 you know.
mircea_popescu: oh, you mean for my brief stay there ?
asciilifeform: 120v is no mere curio to the folks in the u.s. or post-u.s. world whose cities burn on account of pinched-cable-and-too-many-amps
asciilifeform: the times prior to mains current don't count.
mircea_popescu: might be what, the 12th time maybe
asciilifeform: some kinds of damage - stick around, long after the antlers have grown with grass.
mircea_popescu: they're just broadly speaking acultural and unseflwarare enough, unlike the romans, so they don't spend three centuries waxing poetic over this understood situation
mircea_popescu: all the diddling it's gonna do, it mostly did already.
asciilifeform: everybody gets 'ozymandiased' in the end.
mircea_popescu: not that far off, either.
mircea_popescu: looky here : "there's no blade of grass in the forest that the doe could not shit on, at its pleasure". perhaps. fact : grass will grow through where the antlers were, and not know the difference.
asciilifeform: i dare to suggest that there is not a single transoceanic line or satellite in orbit that usg could not arbitrarily diddle, or remove entirely, at their pleasure.
asciilifeform: as far as the machines are concerned, this is actually true
mircea_popescu: tell you what, it'll fall into the ocean and nobody'll even notice.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, because you bought into the ridoinculous "us=world" nonsense.
mircea_popescu: as the bear was getting ready to stomp the anthill, the anthill in question was very animated by the following political debate : some ants wanted to tear down one wall, while some other ants thought this is stupid.
mircea_popescu: if you think the dispute as to how internet won't be available in the future in the us comes down to what anyone wants, usg or not usg...
mircea_popescu: you are aware the usg can't maintain infrastructure anyway, and if you persist in staying there you will one day connect to b-a via satellite phones provided by, likely, fucking spain.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the link concerned ~infrastructure~. usg is trying so that when i get my signed udp, and try to send it to mircea_popescu, it won't leave my street even.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so then we don't even disagree.
asciilifeform: routing tcp no-questions-asked while filtering packets that could be signature-authed without storing state is braindamaged.
mircea_popescu: if you imagine bitcoin took off because the muppets, you're inhabiting a very special place.
assbot: Bitcoin in Argentina : exactly nothing to do with the derps on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1eCTVVg )
mircea_popescu: Azelphur http://trilema.com/2014/bitcoin-in-argentina-exactly-nothing-to-do-with-the-derps/
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the absence of a solution is not an argument in favour of shitpiles.
mircea_popescu: Azelphur the part of my business that consists of redditards opining would never have existed. to my benefit.
asciilifeform: and i suppose i will write letters to mircea_popescu and spirit them out in the rectums of pig carcasses loaded onto the great sailing ships ?
asciilifeform: i will say it again, the push against udp is usg disinfo. and everyone who buys into it should retreat to the library with a copy of richard stevens and think very carefully.
mircea_popescu: whether its made of cheese or not.
mircea_popescu: im just saying you don't own the moon, is all.
mircea_popescu: hey, im not saying there's a good alternative.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the thing about raw ip is that it typically requires os support
mircea_popescu: do that, then i'll change my mind.
Azelphur: Also, if anything UDP is lighter on the infrastructure than TCP
asciilifeform: the infrastructure can't support ~anything~ in its current configuration.
mircea_popescu: i don't care what you need. fuck you and your needs. the infrastructure can't support udp in the current configuration. you don't get udp for this reason.
mircea_popescu: and no ntp either.
mircea_popescu: Azelphur fuck them all.
asciilifeform: whether it is done with udp as such or raw ip (i.e. udp with protocol field set to 666) is immaterial
Azelphur: mircea_popescu: you realise UDP is essential for a number of services and that they wouldn't function using TCP, right?
mircea_popescu: i wish it were made a law that no isp may provide udp connectivity for a price under the minimum wage.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: single-packet auth is the only gossipd worth using.
mircea_popescu: re http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-byrne-opsec-udp-advisory-00#page-3 < i think it's a fabulous idea. udp belongs the same place finger, telnet and email belong. the scrapheap of a different world, one where undergrads did not have internet access.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell trinque please consider submitting patch to the ml !
asciilifeform: 'In the case of WebRTC [I-D.draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports], TURN [RFC5766] should be used to concentrate and manage a known-good UDP flows.' <<< ahahaha, 'pleeez herd all yer packetz through usg middleman box'
asciilifeform: shinohai: but you don't really need the manual unless you are doing something more clever than anything i've done so far
asciilifeform: shinohai: only the official manual
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2015 01:52:06; asciilifeform: mats: and given that authentication happens on receipt of first packet - with antireplay nonce - unscannable for (you can't tell if a machine is a brick, a live box refusing to relay ping, or a gossip-udp node)
asciilifeform: the buggers ~really~ do not like http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=29-01-2015#996554
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu check it out, usg read the gossipd logs, and http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-07-2015#1217682
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-07-2015#1217682 << in the land of the demented clowns, it is ~always~ april the first. except, the chainsaw is real, and blade is sharp, and the pretty gurl really ~does~ get cut in half !!
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 06:32:42; trinque: asciilifeform: mod6: ben_vulpes: hey, I fixed rotor.sh on my box by adding --host=x86_64-linux to the configure step for bdb
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-07-2015#1217651 << congrats trinque ! another winner.
punkman: !up The20YearIRCloud
shinohai: It's interesting to think about. I just like the summary of Christianity - which, because I live in that "One Nation under GAWD" I get rather sick of hearing the masses go on about.
shinohai: "In the continuing quest to increase block size and reduce bandwidth issues, Gavin plans to integrate blockchain sync by carrier pigeon in the next release of BitcoinXT"
BingoBoingo: !up devthedev
BingoBoingo: Or, they want to
scoopbot_revived: Cecil the Lion is a Pretext for Expanding Extraterritoriality of US Law http://qntra.net/2015/07/cecil-the-lion-is-a-pretext-for-expanding-extraterritoriality-of-us-law/
shinohai: gm BingoBoingo, you the only bloke awake at this hour?
trinque: asciilifeform: mod6: ben_vulpes: hey, I fixed rotor.sh on my box by adding --host=x86_64-linux to the configure step for bdb
trinque: mod6: https://community.oracle.com/thread/2322618?tstart=0 << here's somebody bitching about the rotor db build error we saw... on solaris
gribble: The operation succeeded.
lobbes: ;;later tell asciilifeform Did some research and looks like I'm going to have to actually edit the plugin for supybot RSS in order to get lobbesbot to store history. I know SQL, but not python. In other words, I gotta teach myself how to make it insert into a table, and check it before spitting out RSS feeds. I'll keep you posted. But for now, I sleep.
decimation: the stator I built a month ago is almost to 335k
gribble: The operation succeeded.
decimation: the irony being that it only applies to rhel 6.2, full of well known holes
decimation: the summary is that you gotta go through about 50 pages of 'rotor build instructions' to even start to reach the 'eal4' state
decimation: don't bother
decimation: And then is heard no more: it is a tale
decimation: That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
asciilifeform: where there was a massive pile of usg paperwork, killing - literally - a forest
decimation: but you need to have the most minimal, stripped down version possible to meet
asciilifeform: but rather something more like 'iso cert'
asciilifeform: decimation: it isn't an ada or otherwise proofy system
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it is rather more like 'qnx' or 'vxworks'
asciilifeform: decimation: the classical bitcoind, unfortunately, ~does~ require threading - and thus, a slice scheduler
decimation: there's a long way from minix to hardware
asciilifeform: there are not so many cpu, nic, or block devices in circulation today.
asciilifeform: so long as we have a cpu, a nic, and a block device, we're golden on the given set
asciilifeform: (the hardware)
decimation: has the widest hardware support?
decimation: and the argument for linux?
asciilifeform: this thing will go nowhere if we declare the gnarliest problem (build) a non-problem
asciilifeform: so, at the risk of repeating myself, i gotta agree with mircea_popescu here and respectfully disagree with mod6
asciilifeform: and, perhaps, other things
asciilifeform: there ARE NOT 9 GB of useful src
decimation: redhat still ships with source dvd, if you download and burn the isos
decimation: and there's no bootstrap scripts as far as I know
decimation: redhat 6 is actually a pretty reasonable os, once you kill the poetteringisms
mod6: on fbsd there is a linuxcompat kernmod -- but it has issues if you make too many i386 syscalls in your linux code. *shrug*
asciilifeform: but - i will not. i have other work!
mod6: i'll have to take another crack at rotor after month end.
asciilifeform: and uses nothing whatsoever but the kernel abi!
mod6: + other patches
decimation: in theory it could build
asciilifeform: but ~i personally~ will from now on support ~only~ rotor. and soon after, only rotolinux (buildroot for arbitrary arch that includes therealbitcoin and its deps, and toolchain to reconstruct self and the latter.)
decimation: but they have thier own binary format, etc
asciilifeform: i won't presume to tell other people to use, or not use.
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 02:34:07; mircea_popescu: sure, not to date. but we're not going by the criteria of what is easy, so we don't really care. if we won't have success for the next decade we'll be here trying it in 2026.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-07-2015#1217395 << if i have to ship a bootable linux iso, buildrooted for the purpose of building a) self b) bitcoin - i will. in fact, yes, i have this up my sleeve, BUT PEOPLE WOULD HAVE TO USE IT instead of retarduntu etc
asciilifeform: and the 'locales' bullshit
asciilifeform: responsible, iirc, for ~all~ of the known bash exploits
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-07-2015#1217330 << we vivisected drepper here on several occasions. he is ~the~ most accomplished publicly-known gavin thus far.
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 01:39:49; mircea_popescu: this "pure code" approach is no different from every other "pure research" proposition - sure, you're purely able to pursue pure goals now, but the cost is any conceivable relevancy.
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 01:39:10; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-07-2015#1217142 << doesn't have to be a one size fits all. but if your software can't be built, your software doesn't exist. and it is still upon you to explain how you expect users to use your thing - nobody is going to go do the guesswork of "what the author might have meant", and ESPECIALLY no sane person should ever guess what "obvious" means for anyone else
mircea_popescu: yup, that's the only time so far 3 appears alone as a factor.
mircea_popescu: (ftr, intrigeri is something crazy with the bug reports, may be all-internet record holder)
decimation: heh yeah. apple makes up standards as they go
mircea_popescu: decimation check it out, they need a metalocale. hopefully implemented as multibyte too!