ascii_field: there's a fella somewhere who wrote an 'arm' version, if any aficionados of that arch are reading this
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: http://git.annexia.org/?p=jonesforth.git;a=blob;f=jonesforth.f;h=5c1309574ae1165195a43250c19c822ab8681671;hb=HEAD << the other half of it
mircea_popescu briefly considers mirroring it, then notices it's actually histed on author's own domain, desists.
ascii_field sadly pines for the book
mircea_popescu: much like feynman's the only way to teach undergrads really
mircea_popescu: i wonder how they dereference it.
mircea_popescu: he may be argued with it, but so far without exception the "you'll come to agree, because you're smart and i'm right" controlled to date.
mircea_popescu: in the strictly limited but ever present sense that its presence prevents its absence from being harmful.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-08-2015#1225256 << me recalls when people noticed the "make directory dev (mkdir dev). navigate to it (cd dev)" snippet.
BingoBoingo: Oh, the many ways and times qntra suffers the slings and arrows of DDoS. People just can't stop endorsing us this way
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 04:53:37; asciilifeform: the 'rotor' toolchain, for instance, tripped up some folks. but it needs to be built ~once per machine~
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-08-2015#1225245 << you're sounding like you expect this to be exceptional ? how the fuck often do i rebuild anything! what's more often than "once per machinbe" ? on ce per season ? recompile every election november ? once per pair of underwear ?
mod6: shinohai: excellent work! thank you. these are the first steps in a series of similar things needed.
ascii_field: but if yes - then will, at some point
shinohai: I saved the hated Ubuntu for last
mircea_popescu: the "rocks fall, everyone dies" of ai : "write mp emulator"
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 04:48:02; ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu will likely run me through the "oh you're complaining here have some more of what irks you" chipper
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 04:44:32; asciilifeform: and yes, all of this looks like pointless sweat to the folks who struggle with builds, checking sigs, missed linefeedz, etc
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-08-2015#1225198 << blessfully, i don't think we're short these, by any sort of conceivable measure. nobody has that quality*count. we were however becoming a little short in organizing their effort, but i think that's resolving.
mod6: <+ascii_field> mod6: i'm willing to re-create all of mine << ok no rush here. lemme just re-read and think about all of these things for a bit.
trinque: putting the information to construct the tree in the patches themselves has a nice decentralized nature to it
ascii_field: which a robotic graphatron could then walk
mod6: i need to re-read all of the logs from today and have a nice long "think" about it.
mod6: so everyone else from the beginning of time (october 24th 2014) must resign all patches?
ascii_field: and the rest of us, same.
mod6: how do we reconsile this with the patches already created/applied
ascii_field: this magic pill lets you take a bag of patches, and determine in what order they apply
ascii_field: that requires either modified 'patch' util, or wrapped in perl etc
ascii_field: what it won't do is take the hash into account when patching
mod6: ok. will diff take that and run it and ignore that first line with the hash?
mod6: (the unchanged original file)
jurov: if yes we can start from there
ascii_field: while preserving the simultaneously total and minimal representation of .patch
ascii_field: yes, i agree with mircea_popescu re: how patches should embed hash of antecedent file. and imho this solves whatever problem exists (that is, enables it to be solved locally by any participant, in the style he prefers)
ascii_field: colour me thick, but i still don't get where the 'crisis' is
mod6: so before I say "yup, that's it, that's the thing that gets us to where we want to be", i want to fully understand what I'm agreeing to use.
mod6: <+jurov> mod6 please look at bigget picture, nto jsut to this one step << i think partly ... my general concern is my understanding of how this proposed system would work. this concern is based on the fact that when the current system was proposed, i had the oppertunity to speak out and put in my say in the matter, but I didn't understand it so I don't think I objected very much. and now look at where we are.
jurov: maybe we end up all using a script to put the package together and sign it.. but in this case it can just output an email message to be just fed to sendmail
mod6: i guess im just trying to picture in my mind how i would have to use, step by step, the proposed system every single day.
jurov: and metadata what the patch applies on
jurov: turdatron needs to take bundles of patch + manifest (at least, can be any other files aside from patches)
punkman: 30 pages in, "Ada for Software Engineers", the code examples look gnarly
mod6: as you can see clearsign mangles the text: - --- a/rotor.sh .... - -../dist/configure
mod6: anyway, the main point i wanted to bring up re: clearsigned patches into deedbot was this email: http://thebitcoin.foundation/ml/btc-dev/2015-July/000136.html
n6: I'm already in the wot just have to auth.
n6: ben_vulpes: what more welcoming then support for free?
ben_vulpes: n6: d'you plan to get into the wot as well?
mod6: it still doesn't help me view a base64 encoded submission to the deedbot
mod6: and /patch.html imho should not draw off of just any submission, only signed submissions from ben, myself and the author.
mod6: punkman: <+mod6> <+ben_vulpes> there's always /patches.html... << sure if it's readable. <+mod6> what about for unsigned new submissions?
mod6: punkman: taking it back to the earlier premise.
mod6: and there are 75`000 people and 50 submissions per day?
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> there's always /patches.html... << sure if it's readable.
ben_vulpes: there's always /patches.html...
mod6: that's fine, but what if I just wanna look through the submitted patches in deedbot? i now have to do a bunch of extra gyrations to even see the text
mod6: and i thought that was kinda one of the requirements.
ben_vulpes: n6: all of my noodling on the topic resides at http://cascadianhacker.com/bitcoin/callgraph/
mod6: see, we could uu encode stuff or gzip stuff or do any number of things, but then it's far less readable "as-is"
mod6: i've been thinking alot about the ML issues that have been brought up lately. and lastnight I bascially came up with: Mailing list A: for all submissions testing or experimental or otherwise.. Mailing list B: for accepted, signed and released patches, in order. And jurov's /patch.html (or w/e its called) should draw from there.
ben_vulpes: we're just exploring the possibility space here
trinque: was merely saying I am willing to put in the work *should* deedbot- be some part of it
trinque: I gotta depart to a meeting, but to summarize I have no strong opinion that deedbot is the solution
mod6: ascii_field: im simply referring to the converstaion from this morning
mod6: will deedbot take 2 parameters, a non-signed .patch file and a detached signature and somehow colese them?
trinque: I could change the thing
mod6: now, it might be that I'm not exactly understanding what the proceedure for submitting to deed bot would be. but if clearsigned .patch files, that can not work.
mod6: if our idea is to clearsign patches and then submit them to deedbot, i urge you all to review this email and consider why that doesn't work:
mod6: i also like how it lines up the signatures to a specific hash horizontally
punkman: "Like any contract, the Ada Referebce Manual is written in very precise language, and the term ‘language lawyer’ is often used for people who are experts at interpreting the document."
ascii_field: actually, the best book i have so far is in ru
ascii_field: anyone seriously into the subject will also want the 'standard' and 'rationale' documents.
ascii_field: ben_vulpes: nope, i haven't digitized copies of these. but doesn't hurt to look around
gribble: The operation succeeded.
gernika: punkman - I have the Ada 95 reference manual. Seems thorough. Also you can print out a copy of the GNAT User's Guide at Kinkos - which I've also done. Haven't actually made any progress in reading it but... Seems good by looking at TOC.
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 14:45:46; mircea_popescu: also i'd like to keep this conversation open, for all the folks whose time is not day atm yet.
punkman: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-August/000144.html this won't truncate your debug.log unless you tell it to
ben_vulpes: what was the rollover patch called?
ascii_field: if wrong about this, will have to merge by hand, and there is no going around this
BingoBoingo: It's for the best
gribble: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell pete_dushenski You should see it when the DDoS abates
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 15:24:59; punkman: I don't want another VCS system. I just need a way to import patches in my existing VCS.
ascii_field: if someone was wondering how the system could ever be made ~less~ n00b-friendly - this'd be it..
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 15:03:16; mircea_popescu: the biggest headache to date for jurov/users of ml seems to have been the mailing itself. i wonder how much sense simply deedbotting messages would make.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: my coracle's been wedged at 367850 since last night, even with the new db locks config. last 500 lines of debug.log: http://dpaste.com/1XB21DH.txt , please let me know if more would be useful
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 12:35:39; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-08-2015#1225130 << instead of imagining the arguments you two'd better quote them. THAT much of a process we do have, and it's both explicitly stated and in daily implicit visible use.
ben_vulpes is not terrifically familiar with the git gpg integration
ben_vulpes: <Adlai> ootb, signed patches. deeding signed patches from darcs is less work than doing so from git etc << how so? i've never touched darcs, the question comes from ignorance.
punkman: I imagine they already have people in those companies, why make it official?
trinque: I mean they all can, but well?
trinque: the requirement that signed and deeded patches be the primary representation of a contribution great appeal though, for obvious reasons
trinque: wrap git or mercurial or something in hooks which enforce the constraints desired
trinque: sure, and that's another thought
punkman: I don't want another VCS system. I just need a way to import patches in my existing VCS.
trinque: implementing a VCS isn't rocket science; it's just a matter of getting the abstractions right
trinque: and then maybe deedbot farts out additional nav controls on the html versions of these interesting deeds with a particular sexp in them
trinque: so if you say did the structured data in the "blobs" as sexps you could sign that text easily
mircea_popescu: jurov word. there must be.
trinque: I probably missed one, and they also divide into further classifications, ref for example can be a tag, branch, stash
jurov: (currently on has to clearsign the .txt, make detached armored sig for .patch and use non-braindamaged email client to put them together)
trinque: so, git does it this way: there are Blobs, which are a k/v pair of which the k is the hash of the v; blobs can be one of: Reference, Commit, Tree, Blob
trinque: one thing that would be needed on my end is a saner URL for a given deed; it needs to just be the hash
trinque: you could implement the data structures needed for VCS atop deedbot in a similar manner
trinque: the way git handles this is that "everything's a Blob" then "some Blobs are a Tree which points to n Blobs which may be Trees or Blobs"
jurov: there must be better system to put together few files + text that already has crypto or can be extended easily
jurov: yes the signed email + extra signed attachs is a kludge
trinque: to date I've tried to keep it simple, hence the deeds are plain textfiles linked to by a single index
mircea_popescu: jurov i wasn't proposing they be used as is.
mircea_popescu: in the sense of retarded but commonly seen
mircea_popescu: this readily enforces the two restraings we want enforced, which is : a) wot restricted and b) signed permanently.
mircea_popescu: the biggest headache to date for jurov/users of ml seems to have been the mailing itself. i wonder how much sense simply deedbotting messages would make.
trinque: mircea_popescu | asciilifeform and mod6 and mebbe we have trinque do the graph << I'm in; seems like yet another static site generator job
mircea_popescu: well... the network is pretty noisy.
shinohai: The one I just started has advertised ip
shinohai: Could be I just started this one, the one I am already running returns 28670932
asciilifeform marvelling that no one, apparently, ever noticed the glaring omission in 'patch'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and mod6 and mebbe we have trinque do the graph
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for diana_coman from 2 to 4 with note: Work on Eulora client, various tidbits over the years. Freelance statistician/coder.
mircea_popescu: !rate diana_coman 4 Work on Eulora client, various tidbits over the years. Freelance statistician/coder.
asciilifeform: incidentally it is not necessary to alter the unix patch util. the checksums can be added by a proggy which eats standard patch file and the 'before' tree, and shits - this
mircea_popescu: also i'd like to keep this conversation open, for all the folks whose time is not day atm yet.
mircea_popescu: and the documentation.
asciilifeform: now, the above is not a magic pill! somebody will still need to write the graph traverser
asciilifeform: and thereby can safely snip a file after stating its checksum
asciilifeform: jurov: it was not a thing before, because there was no way to guarantee that the contents are what the patch author thought they were
asciilifeform: i will add, if it isn't obvious, that patches like the one i suggested will apply on a standard unix patch util
asciilifeform: hence the 'never, ever include a patch in message text' thing.
jurov: no other way
asciilifeform: afaik this was never an issue with patches (they were attached as binaries)
asciilifeform: in that, having a bag of patches in hand, you could magically coalesce them into a dependency graph
diana_coman: it took me half an hour only, but yeah, I did not have to re-read the code or anything
asciilifeform: imho this would correct a fundamental flaw in the whole diff thing
asciilifeform: see the dpastes
mircea_popescu: with her there holding my hand
mircea_popescu: ~I~ applied the diffs.
jurov: diana_coman: you actually tried to apply the diffs?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not even sure the pile was worse.
asciilifeform: because the alternative was a multi-megabyte pile of minus signs
mircea_popescu: i dunno how you folks understand code otherwise, might be that i'm rusty or inept, but anyway.
mircea_popescu likes, perhaps irrationally, the patch format
asciilifeform: from patches like these, one could conceivably auto-build a dependency graph
asciilifeform: as i understand, any mechanized thing really depends on patches stating their antecedents
mircea_popescu: gimme the mechanics!
asciilifeform: again with the meat models. in point of fact most viruses ~don't work~
asciilifeform: the only way to guarantee that the selected set of authors adds up to a single nonconflicting merge is to only build official releases (that is, tree signed by mod6 & ben_vulpes)
mircea_popescu: and the only time i hear of any peep from the entire shebang is when one of them has gone over and i need to come in here and start with the !rate -10
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform here's what i want to accomplish, as a goal : i want to be able to put up a linux system, then go curl http://trilema.com/autobitcoin.sh | gpg -verify > autobitcoin.sh. and then run that autobitcoin.sh, which auto-follows the changes of people i have selected for this task, builds them and runs them
mircea_popescu: so : you wanna contribute, use this and that markup, then rest is done by itself.
mircea_popescu: not on the fucken reader. prolly 2/3 of our problem as is
mircea_popescu: jurov what if the only way to add an edit is "deedbot pastebin/soandso" ?
mircea_popescu: than the ml
jurov: i use dokuwiki for some stuff, too. and it can be authed only once per seesion like assbot
mircea_popescu knows nothing about these.
mircea_popescu: for testing, for corner cases, for whatever the shit.
asciilifeform: well, one reason why possibly not is that i suspect that the ml is as quiet as it is because signing things is arduous
asciilifeform: esp. if it can be limited to the wot set
mircea_popescu: changes, in the history tree - all signed.
asciilifeform: won't blame people, but will say that the state of the ecosystem (i.e. what folks are building on) is in such a sad state that the only plausible solution is os standardization
mircea_popescu: and the last we heard of davout he was told exactly the same, and for all i know he's fallen in there never to be heard from again
assbot: Logged on 26-06-2015 21:23:15; jurov: ok ascii_field not turd , but this leaves things to be desired, too: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-January/000033.html
asciilifeform: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-June/000100.html << example of one of my patches listing antecedents
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i bet you dollars to anything that the reason you don't get deluged in that is simply that moist folks are too interdicted by the task to even attempt, soi we don't hear about 99% of compat issues
jurov: but srs, i have asked for patches context, was sent to go scour the log for it
asciilifeform: it is a problem. but i must point out that most of the troubles folks have spoken of so far do not stem from it. e.g., trinque et al with their misbehaving systems.
mircea_popescu: i swear this is a problem that's structural and should be solved, rather than just pushed against.
mircea_popescu: no, if you look at the history with open eyes it's quite clear we had this problem on back for a while now.
asciilifeform: i will add that a while ago i pictured myself in the predicament of folks trying to assemble the thing. which is why i included an unofficial flattened source with 'stator'
mircea_popescu: atm we're veering dangerously close to the old -dev process, where they just shat magic stones.
mircea_popescu: they need to be supported, is what im telling you.
asciilifeform: this'd be the snip-snips.
asciilifeform: nah it's the work of 'aunt dumb'
mircea_popescu: reproduction is the work of man, and reproduction has TO DATE taken over 2 million strokes. today.
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> i never objected to folks using 'git', 'mercurial', etc. - only to the notion that <
asciilifeform: it is ~The~ test.
asciilifeform: aaaaand this is when i decide that the thing has brain cancer.
mircea_popescu: there's 75`000 contributors in 2025 alone.
asciilifeform: sorta doing this with the linux kernel, actually
mircea_popescu: suppose you can't read at the pace new ones get added.
asciilifeform: i'd read them.
mircea_popescu: ok, gefuxexperiment. suppose you get hit in the head, and go into a coma.
asciilifeform: i never objected to folks using 'git', 'mercurial', etc. - only to the notion that anything that can't come out of a printer and then ocr'd back in could be the canonical representation of the path from pedigreed 0.5.3 to us
mircea_popescu: can we just design the thing, if for no other reason then for the exercise, and then see what already exists and if we like it ?
mircea_popescu: anyway. the idea here is specifically that we want you to be in a position where the plane and chalkboard perspective doesn't loom.
mircea_popescu: there's no reason for this to take a week to do.
assbot: Logged on 31-07-2015 21:50:52; hanbot: ascii_field hanbot, what are the remaining issues? << rotor.sh sez: http://thewhet.net/han/rotorfail.txt (no patches) meanwhile mod6 has made progress on RI on ubuntu so still working on "manual" stator build.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell hanbot so is the node up ? where ? is there a recipe-from-own-eyes somewhere ? where ?
mircea_popescu: and hanbot must also be able to evaluate the theoretical advances in question., inseparable.
mircea_popescu: it's not effectual and won't scale is the dispute.
asciilifeform: that the existing process is precisely correct
mircea_popescu: when you have a phd assembly line, the problem is not "insufficient phds"
mircea_popescu: but just as the saying goes, past performance is no guarantee of future success. that we readily crushed the "omai, bigger blocks" initiative, like all "initiatives" to date does not offer any guarantee we'll manage next time.
mircea_popescu: stalin despised the peasant, and the usg despises the scum we despise, equally if not moreso.
mircea_popescu: actual, bona fide love of the multitudes ?
mircea_popescu: what do you think all this "software for the people" kick is ?
mircea_popescu: but in any case, a purely M wot will eventually fail, no matter how effectual or powerful it is (and it is, ftr, factually) on the financial side
mircea_popescu: the reason this was possible is fortunately very easy to fix, once we understood what the hole was.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, because it failed to even conceptualize the M part, let alone address it, it remained open to attack which the us first probed (with its corporate tentacles, ms etc) and then crushed, with its agency teeth.
mircea_popescu: this is ultimately why foss failed. yes, it did (sort of, but originally much better than currently) allow the U seating part.
mircea_popescu: and both sides gotta be done at the same time.
mircea_popescu: this "choose your own giant" system is definitely powerful enough to take over the world, but we still gotta figure out a way to allow such seating.
mircea_popescu: and returning to the issue, the good quality recipes are exactly equivalent to the "wot of patches" management technique : they allow people to ride on the shoulders of giants ~of their own choice~.
mircea_popescu: but in point of fact, approaching the matter conversely, a straight github repository would be just fine from the M perspective if it were doubled by duly deedbotted hashes of the plaintext. and on the other hand, irrespectively how inscrutable -r content would be just fine from a U perspective, just as long as someone can somehow convert it into a plaintext they can sit down with, follow, and never be surprised.
mircea_popescu: this is not practicable, if for no other reason then because the very earth will end up growing a beard and that'll be bad for the climate.
mircea_popescu: i am perfectly aware that a fine answer to both these is "just grow a beard", which is to say, "know", knight style, just "what is going on" so that you can reboot the machine into a working state. and "know", mp style, just whop the moles are.
mircea_popescu: the other is MANAGE. specifically - hanbot must also be able to evaluate the theoretical advances in question.
mircea_popescu: one is USE. specifically - hanbot must be able to put into work the theoretical advances b-a produces. and ima use her as a stand-in for "intelligent and willing to work, but not able to grow a beard".
mircea_popescu: there are very specifically TWO things we want to do here, and they are not miscible.
mircea_popescu: i suspect we might be belabouring under the burdens imposed by a design problem which ultimately stems from conceptual confusion.
mircea_popescu: the only kingdom of heaven accessible to earthlinks is fucking reading and signing patches. don't want it, fine, but don't get fucking existential on me on your deathbed about how you wasted your life. yes, you have. shoulda not have.
mircea_popescu: there is NOTHING else. anything where you spend your time for any other purpose is either a) masturbation, ie, the xtian "building castles on sand". whether you spend time with your kid or groom your beard or fuck the woman, it's all sensata. or else b) uranium mines.
mircea_popescu: not how it works. it has A LOT of upside and virtually no downside. what ELSE are you going to do with that "money" if you don't go to the market ? and what ELSE are you going to do with that certain time and alleged expertise if not sign this stuff ?
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 04:19:08; decimation: plus, his original theory was that others should read and sign. now this is good in theory, but in practice has no upside and all downside
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-08-2015#1225151 << this proposition is false. similarly, going to the market has "all downside and no upside" for goers : they know for a fact they'll spend money. and who knows if the stuff they get will be any good, won't spoil en route, won't get stolen before they get home or for that matter won't sprout heads and tentacles and eat them. so let's "safely" aka stupidly round th