mircea_popescu: this was true then.
asciilifeform: sorta like an old cement warehouse, somehow infested with vermin. yes, must exterminate the vermin. but then what.
mircea_popescu: re the thermodynamics : people live and then die. their time is fundamentally free. no thermodynamics applies here.
asciilifeform: but only showed a vague sketch of how to solve the remaining half
mircea_popescu: so it never actually provided an ysort of advantage, but merely the promise of perhaps one day.
mircea_popescu: on the ethnic filter point, a) it was not actulaly the case historically (new york by ww1 was just about getting to the point of advancement) ; b) it'sjust the lazy man's approach to things. doesn't work, either.
asciilifeform: (i.e. by force of army, by 'everyone else sucks so profoundly in comparison that there can be no debate', ...
asciilifeform: because required 1) someone to write it 2) who could 'win' on one of the roughly 5 'standard wins' that i outline in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=305
mircea_popescu: i don't get the usl part.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu ought to look up precisely what it is that folks are trying to get out of when they sue to be formally expelled from usa citizenship
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-08-2015#1229941 << similar system in usa. if you don't 'file tax', not only is there a fine levied, but the tax charged will be based on what usg 'thinks' you could have earned that year.
assbot: Logged on 08-08-2015 00:33:42; asciilifeform: ussr, for instance, just about broke its back producing ic (and cloned computers of various descriptions.) it is not clear that these paid for themselves, regardless of how you measure economic
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-08-2015#1229811 << in the movie 'Interstellar', the 'space race' is taught to children as a thing the us used to bankrupt the ussr, and rocket jockeys are villified
asciilifeform: meaning, roughly, whether one can carry on doing it without borrowing/stealing something from somewhere outside the system under consideration
assbot: Logged on 08-08-2015 01:53:19; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-08-2015#1229626 << at -ev? << the concept of ev does not apply in that context.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-08-2015#1229934 << nobody cancelled thermodynamics. the concept ultimately applies - to various degrees - to anything one might do.
assbot: Logged on 08-08-2015 01:57:42; mircea_popescu: incidentally, one could prolly make a killing in the north america this way. just - offer patronage to the various people who got paper to cut.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-08-2015#1229957 << orlov's mafia development stage. this is available ~right now~ just as in 1880 cosa nostra. BUT they use an ethnic filter to keep out usg. (the only filter known to work semi-reliably, sadly)
assbot: Logged on 08-08-2015 01:54:53; nubbins`: "by making us guess whether you have a basement apartment, you waive your right to claim that you don't"
asciilifeform: hence naggum pissing on scheme as a 'pedo' language that is only loved by folks who like the embryonic stage of things when they have no wrinkles (by his lights)
assbot: Logged on 08-08-2015 01:47:47; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the "not inhabited" part holds its own mystery. did it provide an edge to users ? then, how come not used - is it the current castration of "thinking" folk that prevented them from deplyoing it ? something else ?
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-08-2015#1229917 << a unified standard library never formed. a few implementation-specific fairly complete libraries - did, but the kind of folks attracted to scheme all turned nose at them (incl. me) - 'ewww, not orthogonal, not beautiful, not scheme at all' -- them (and me)
nubbins`: this isn't always the metric tho
nubbins`: i do have a lovely plough, cca 14th century tech, that can trim a phone book cleaner than the phone book factory does
mircea_popescu: incidentally, one could prolly make a killing in the north america this way. just - offer patronage to the various people who got paper to cut.
mircea_popescu: you need like a patron over there.
mircea_popescu: depends. if it is the place sucks.
mircea_popescu: which means, i'll spend fifty, because hey, it keeps one or more lawyers owing me for the bread i provided them
mircea_popescu: and this "you made me do" bs is for tired mothers.
nubbins`: "by making us guess whether you have a basement apartment, you waive your right to claim that you don't"
assbot: Logged on 07-08-2015 22:54:22; mircea_popescu: i'll take over the us fed and run it from right here, and if there's nobody else i'll take over fucking china silicon and run it from right here too. what in the ever loving fuck.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-08-2015#1229626 << at -ev? << the concept of ev does not apply in that context.
nubbins`: and you waive the right to appeal o.O
mircea_popescu: "guided tour, naked - $50. add $1000 per oz of clothes. shoes $500 flat fee."
nubbins`: and the homeowner tells you to fuck off
nubbins`: it's where they count your bathrooms and look at your basement and make sure they're charging you enough property tax
mircea_popescu: the soviet thing ?
nubbins`: oh, city workers knocked on my door the other day requesting entry for "propertyassessment"
mircea_popescu: not that the presence of "official committees" isn't a sign that the thing's dead/dying.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the "not inhabited" part holds its own mystery. did it provide an edge to users ? then, how come not used - is it the current castration of "thinking" folk that prevented them from deplyoing it ? something else ?
mircea_popescu: and on the light front, http://36.media.tumblr.com/82e04f73b678c13af881ca4eea36f11d/tumblr_nbjghbxS3F1tve9e7o1_1280.jpg
nubbins`: this intro sold me on the rest of it
nubbins`: there's tricks you can still pull and tricks you can't
nubbins`: asciilifeform the fact that the si and hf exists means the guy's probably not as much of a fuckin rube as the dude who built the church his grandfather was married in
nubbins`: not in 1st world anyway. when i was in the sacred valley of peru, right in the middle of a 7 hour hike i came across a bunch of guys building a church outta mud bricks
asciilifeform: find me a fella willing to wear a gas suit and wash si in HF all day, every day, 'for the good of' something-or-other.
nubbins`: but, this is now a relic of the past
nubbins`: altho the church builders were generally more free to fuck off and do something else
asciilifeform is roughly aware that the story of actual egyptian pyramids was rather more complicated
asciilifeform: the thing that makes the pyramid a pyramid, at least in a schoolbook example, is that it is not something anyone (but the king) actually ~wants~ that much
asciilifeform: just distributed another way.
asciilifeform: i contend that (b) necessarily involves the same amount of enslavement as (a)
asciilifeform: just to work out example on a napkin. say you, a king, want a pyramid built. could a) conscript ten thousand folks to work to death building it b) debase the currency and hire builders
asciilifeform: if anyone has the link (or if i hallucinated this existing) please say.
asciilifeform: i am now looking for the mircea_popescu article where he hypothesized that 'bezzle' is, without exception, born out of people doing things that are -ev on the large scale - in just the same way as elements heavier than iron are born in supernova
mod6: I'm gonna re-tackle the rotor build tomorrow btw.
asciilifeform: to bring back to concretes, ussr could have done something else with the manpower they sank into cloning pdp, z80
asciilifeform: the basic problem with -ev is not that eventually you run out of shitanium and unobtainium (though you will) but that you will be getting poorer, monotonically, and not realize precisely why
asciilifeform: orlov does conflate several unrelated phenomena (in particular, zooming into resource exhaustion to the exclusion of just about all other aspects of problem)
asciilifeform: 'This, then, should be the new main thrust of industrial activity: to manufacture and distribute products with the understanding that this process will run out of resources and stop. These products must be designed to outlive the process by which they are made, by as long as possible.'
asciilifeform: practical outgrowth of this hypothesis is that, if it is true, quite likely that most of the cpu that will EVER be produced, have been produced.
assbot: U.S. Economy Grinds To Halt As Nation Realizes Money Just A Symbolic, Mutually Shared Illusion - The Onion - America's Finest News Source ... ( http://bit.ly/1gkmM1K )
nubbins`: (from http://www.theonion.com/article/us-economy-grinds-to-halt-as-nation-realizes-money-2912 )
nubbins`: (from http://www.theonion.com/article/us-economy-grinds-to-halt-as-nation-realizes-money-2912)
nubbins`: When asked, hypothetically, how he would pay for complicated life-saving surgery for a loved one, Polk seemed uncertain. "That's a lot of vegetables, isn't it?" he said.
asciilifeform: but if the treat is delicious enough, and bezzlatronics invented, the non-pay-er want-ers easily turn into borrowers.
asciilifeform: it'd be rather like spacewalks
asciilifeform: but what if a dildo intrinsically cost more to make, energy/resource-wise, than the user could ever hope to repay ?
asciilifeform: note that 'people want computerz' is not enough for the industry to be +ev
asciilifeform: ~this~ is why just about every large ic maker in history has either gone broke or become a quasi-governmental entity
asciilifeform: re: ic thread: whole thing is kinda coming together in my skull. quite likely ~^^this^^~ is why it is impossible to borrow money to fund a computer-related anything, without a convincing plan to somehow pass the bezzle to a greater chump
nubbins`: "call off the police: law-abiding citizen count higher than ever"
assbot: Call off the bee-pocalypse: U.S. honeybee colonies hit a 20-year high - The Washington Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1KVYqZK )
nubbins`: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/07/23/call-off-the-bee-pocalypse-u-s-honeybee-colonies-hit-a-20-year-high/
trinque: I am to the point where a bootable root.img is repeatably produced
trinque: idea is the same thing on the stick ends up on the computer, then the computer's equipped to repeat
nubbins`: and then i found myself in a spiral of photolitho articles.
assbot: Logged on 04-08-2015 04:05:11; asciilifeform: 'the gods of the copybook headings' (tm) (r) (kipling!)
nubbins`: TBH i think stuff like VLSI is only kept going because everyone involved is afraid the machines won't start up again if they stop
asciilifeform: in fact, they... well.
asciilifeform: ussr, for instance, just about broke its back producing ic (and cloned computers of various descriptions.) it is not clear that these paid for themselves, regardless of how you measure economic
asciilifeform: it is conceivable the the entire ic age has been fueled by a continuously-rolling 'jam tomorrow' bezzle
asciilifeform: just to add to the already forming lsd trip in this thread: i'm not personally convinced that ic production HAS EVER BEEN +EV
asciilifeform: nubbins`: afaik they STILL do
asciilifeform: very few folks seem to understand the full depth of this
nubbins`: ^ you buy a butchered pig, the farmer's keeping your tenderloin tips.
asciilifeform: (and who am i to contend that they were wrong?)
asciilifeform: the perpetrators were convinced that the chumps were convinced that there is simply no other way.
nubbins`: why would you? everyone who bothered to think knew
asciilifeform: summary: nobody knows how to make selling computers +ev without the millions-of-planktonous-idiots market being involved somehow
asciilifeform: but this is very different from how the computer on everyone's desk was built
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu suddenly feels like commissioning the production of an ic from own personal lunch money, who am i to discourage
asciilifeform: see also the old thread re: how no one ever, to date, non-fraudulently financed the production of a bitcoin miner.
assbot: Logged on 07-08-2015 22:54:22; mircea_popescu: i'll take over the us fed and run it from right here, and if there's nobody else i'll take over fucking china silicon and run it from right here too. what in the ever loving fuck.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-08-2015#1229626 << at -ev? thing is, nobody ever invented 'reasonably priced electronics sold to sane people.' that is, no one has ever demonstrated the economic feasibility of this. the only kinds of computer sold in perhaps 25 years were: a) sold to chumps buying forced 'pr0gr3ssss' and b) so expensive everyone shits his pants
asciilifeform: but it's all in the logz.
asciilifeform: the subject swallows own arse, and either disappears in a flash of gamma rays, or becomes an adult computerist
asciilifeform: (describes not scheme per se, but walks the student through implementing scheme in scheme, and then implementing a detailed simulator for a machine which is the intrinsic minimum for executing scheme.)
asciilifeform: the book (lovingly referred to as sicp, 'sick pee') is a textbook illustration of precisely what i mean when i say 'fits in head'.
asciilifeform: mit (the home of sussman and the original arena for this) officially became irredeemably doomed in my eyes when they stopped.
assbot: Logged on 12-04-2015 02:22:02; asciilifeform: re: the mit thing:
asciilifeform: phun phakt: when it appeared, american schools began to use it as a mandatory undergrad textbook. and you can measure precisely when each school turned full-bore retard by ~when they stopped~
asciilifeform: (half of this if you're willing to forgo informative error handling, and some of the more difficult features like 'call/cc')
asciilifeform: the original scheme ~standard~ is <50 pages.
asciilifeform: and 3) great student exercise, where the kids won't demand to hear why both 'elt' and 'nth' exist (perennial retardation example from cl, which was born in a 'no vendor left behind' multi-turdculturist compromise)
asciilifeform: scheme remains 1) a very clean scripting language to embed in another proggy 2) a very spiffy starting point for a future lisp (including hardware)
asciilifeform: which the 'official committee' did
asciilifeform: this was mostly understood by the enthusiasts around a decade ago, but some of the response was also pathological: 'let's bolt on a huge turd of a standard library'
assbot: Logged on 07-08-2015 23:30:34; trinque: whereas CL appears to value completeness, scheme heads for the minimal set of primitives from which higher functionality can be derived
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-08-2015#1229675 << complicated. scheme is an example of a 'suckless movement' that didn't catch on. that is, 'throw out all the legacy crud', but after that the thing has to be inhabited. if not inhabited, then dies young, while leaving, yes, beautiful corpse
asciilifeform: http://g01.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1VYB0FVXXXXccXpXXq6xXFXXXN/200673464/HTB1VYB0FVXXXXccXpXXq6xXFXXXN.jpg << another common variant
mircea_popescu: i suppose another way would be to cut holes in cardboard and shoot through the hole.
mircea_popescu: check out the shooting caltrop
asciilifeform: there are also 'fancy' targets that jump up and down when hit
mircea_popescu: well, it's hard to improve your aim with the cans. proper ranges have electronic measures
mircea_popescu: by now you're really better off with some cans out in the field.
asciilifeform: (in the locales in usa where shooting galleries are even a thing)
mircea_popescu: the fucktards in north america build out of wood what they should make out of cement
mircea_popescu: how the fuck else ?
assbot: Logged on 07-08-2015 23:32:25; mircea_popescu: and in other news, http://41.media.tumblr.com/c9d4ff83a823627155ae18cd303fc8fe/tumblr_ne67eaH7DB1soaauko1_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: fortunately this is a point that won't take a second pass to explain to the chinese. or, for the most part, to the russians.
assbot: Logged on 07-08-2015 23:29:18; trinque: I once read The Little Schemer, wasn't bad
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-08-2015#1229671 << i own the whole series (all but the idiot java volume.) some of'em coloured by old gf, even. just last week got the latest 'little prover' in the post!
mircea_popescu: the "new" bullshit is going away.
asciilifeform: and nobody cancelled them or is about to
asciilifeform: the vendors are insistent that this is no longer happening, but there is strong reason to not believe this any more than anything else that ever came out of their mouths
assbot: Logged on 07-08-2015 22:51:01; trinque: problem to worry about when the metric shitloads of old hardware available everywhere vanish
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-08-2015#1229616 << laugh, but this is happening. esp. concerning gpu: several whole generations of nvidia products suffer from the dreaded bga ball defect, and have strictly limited lifespan.
mircea_popescu: so work together eh ?
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-08-2015#1229582 << if meant 'perly', i welcome suggestions of how it could be made less so. but - the incantation works. i encourage folks to try it. presently investigating how to re-sign things while preserving all timestamps.
mircea_popescu: and in other news, http://41.media.tumblr.com/c9d4ff83a823627155ae18cd303fc8fe/tumblr_ne67eaH7DB1soaauko1_1280.jpg
trinque: whereas CL appears to value completeness, scheme heads for the minimal set of primitives from which higher functionality can be derived
mircea_popescu: i don't recall if we like or loathe scheme
trinque: I once read The Little Schemer, wasn't bad
mircea_popescu: was there a "lisp for 12 yos" anywhere ?
trinque: and that's been the rub I think; what's the answer for a developer that shows up, and what's the answer for someone that wants to turn his life around
trinque: and if there are suggestions on different libc, etc., should be very easy to change
mircea_popescu: trinque ubuntu folks had the process down pat for their thing, which is how i even ended up recommending it, briefly.
mircea_popescu: i'd rather read about flies fuck
mircea_popescu: so not yet really implemented. but... the shadows await, all around, every night. and in the shadows, the grues...
assbot: Logged on 07-08-2015 19:12:10; danielpbarron: there are like.. 12 players right now. wouldn't make much sense for us to start killing each other (not that death has been implemented yet)
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-08-2015#1229535 < < yeah fact is the players are yet very poor - plenty of items haven't even been crafted yet, most types of claims haven't been found etc. it's cooperative necessarily, like stranded people on an island/plane crash site don't exactly start bvuilding forts and playing war.
mircea_popescu: so it's not that it's not "pvp based" it's more that even its pve is really pvp by another name.
assbot: Logged on 07-08-2015 19:10:23; ben_vulpes: i just recall faint intimations that it wasn't quite the focus as it is in eve or wow
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-08-2015#1229524 << not at all the case. it's just not implemented yet, but otherwise, add "permadeath" and "universal pvp" see what it comes to.
assbot: Logged on 07-08-2015 19:04:47; ascii_field: and who, if the screenshots on his www are anything to go on, is playing the video version
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-08-2015#1229502 << i am, and i did, and i see no problem with any of this. you may go to a museum whether you wish to take notes or draw copies, why should anyone care ? "oh but the statues were expensive to make, how dare you write abnout them, you should draw! el minimo respeto!!11" ??
assbot: Logged on 07-08-2015 19:03:22; ben_vulpes: i imagined a path the other night where chetty actually stopped maintaining her owhn client
mircea_popescu: i'll take over the us fed and run it from right here, and if there's nobody else i'll take over fucking china silicon and run it from right here too. what in the ever loving fuck.
mircea_popescu: will you take over the writing of your language and write stuff jurov ?
trinque: problem to worry about when the metric shitloads of old hardware available everywhere vanish
assbot: Logged on 07-08-2015 22:45:19; mircea_popescu: break the entire usian industry that relies on "new".
mircea_popescu: do they now.
mircea_popescu: this "progress" bullshit is dumb and must die. there's nothing in the future but a buggy, half assed, stupid reimplementation of the past.
mircea_popescu: if they were dumb enough to lose the recipes, they'll have to reimplement based on our os.
chetty: ok, time machine to go in the past and retieve useable cards ..
mircea_popescu: break the entire usian industry that relies on "new".
mircea_popescu: cards from the past were made, and therefore can be made. period and full fucking stop.
mircea_popescu: the "use specified card, spec = p[ast" is sustainable.
mircea_popescu: chetty no. the "use specified card, spec=future" thing is braindamaged. nobody has cards from the future.
mircea_popescu: you want to play, get a real card. FROM THE PAST.
assbot: Logged on 07-08-2015 19:03:20; ascii_field: or face the choice of asking players to buy vintage cards
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-08-2015#1229495 << hey, there was no problem asking players to buy specified cards for 20 yeasrs, and telling players "You can't play for lack of specified card"
mircea_popescu: the criteria for being "ba canonical os" is for it to fucking work, not for it to be fucking unique.
assbot: Logged on 07-08-2015 18:44:44; gernika: General question - is there value in continuing to test stator, and future versions of it, on OpenBSD? Or should I abandon that and just test on Gentoo from now on?
assbot: Logged on 07-08-2015 18:12:58; ben_vulpes: i'd not mind learning a bit more about the thing so's i can have some fun automating it
thestringpuller: danielpbarron: you ever play a tale in the desert?
trinque: our solution was to redefine the word!
ben_vulpes: in other news, americans still can't manage: https://open.bufferapp.com/self-management-hierarchy/
trinque: bitcoin, the magnetic field pulling all iron filaments into alignment
ben_vulpes: how then to hold territory i guess is a question
ben_vulpes: i just recall faint intimations that it wasn't quite the focus as it is in eve or wow
ben_vulpes: grues becoime valueable, everyone goes for them, hunts into extinction, their prey emerges
ben_vulpes: all ps vs the e
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> twould please him no end to see test reports coming in from that platform << certainly let me know how it goes. yeah, might have issues with rotor on there. I'm still sync'ing my obsd bitcoind build (patched up through -verifyall).
trinque: I am doing more or less what's described there
ben_vulpes: in fact those who run its economy rarely even leave the spreadsheets
ben_vulpes: eve, the game.
ben_vulpes: i think you misunderstand the question.
ascii_field: and who, if the screenshots on his www are anything to go on, is playing the video version
ascii_field: ask mircea_popescu, who paid a pretty penny to commission the graphics
ben_vulpes: i imagined a path the other night where chetty actually stopped maintaining her owhn client
ascii_field: or face the choice of asking players to buy vintage cards
ascii_field: N years from now, they will be forced to permit crapolade that does not exist at this moment
ascii_field: at least the 'nail down' part is
ascii_field: ^ appealing idea. but unless he does the decidedly un-sexy step of 'closing the universe' and nailing down packages ~FOREVER~ - it will fall apart. in exactly the same way every other distro did.
assbot: The “Gentoo Reference System” suite: a new Release Engineering tool. | Anthony G. Basile ... ( http://bit.ly/1KW0WPs )
ben_vulpes: https://blogs.gentoo.org/blueness/2015/07/31/the-gentoo-reference-system-suite-a-new-release-engineering-tool/
assbot: alt-libc: The state of uClibc and musl in Gentoo (part 1) | Anthony G. Basile ... ( http://bit.ly/1Iwo3u5 )
jurov: https://blogs.gentoo.org/blueness/2015/08/04/alt-libc-the-state-of-uclibc-and-musl-in-gentoo-part-1/ we're not alone
trinque: and post to the ML
trinque: gernika: please do make note of these differences
ascii_field: who knows, the day may come when we gotta get the cosmoline grease off bsd and run it. like the ww2 tanks taken off their monument pedestals and sent to fight in donetsk
gernika: General question - is there value in continuing to test stator, and future versions of it, on OpenBSD? Or should I abandon that and just test on Gentoo from now on?
assbot: Call off the bee-pocalypse: U.S. honeybee colonies hit a 20-year high - The Washington Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1KVYqZK )
punkman: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/07/23/call-off-the-bee-pocalypse-u-s-honeybee-colonies-hit-a-20-year-high/
ascii_field: ergo is a complete solution to the antecedent-embedding diff which i suggested to mircea_popescu earlier this week.
ben_vulpes: now there's some perl.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: plus i feel thooper thtupid asking all of the "how ams" questions i had about eulora last time
ben_vulpes: i'd not mind learning a bit more about the thing so's i can have some fun automating it
ben_vulpes: i musta missed the memo on eulora being an okay casual play