asciilifeform: at any rate, the question of sexprs vs infix ('rich syntax', in derp terminology) is orthogonal to '∇ vs nabla' thing
ben_vulpes: doubt rules engine made it into the log
asciilifeform digs futilely for the thread
ben_vulpes: 'tis in the log
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366807 << aheha this from the guy who when looking at a dsl for a rules engine complained "but but what's wrong with the sexprs?!"
asciilifeform: https://cryptome.org/2016-info/nk-hwasong-gulag/nk-hwasong-gulag.htm << gotta love how usg names roads 'for them'
mircea_popescu: that alone was like 1bn then. prolly 15 bn by now lol
BingoBoingo: Even jurov got sucked into it with the S.MPOE/1BTC share convertability
mircea_popescu: the good one.
mircea_popescu: i remember we kinda had enough of the shit at the same time and that guy, what's his name, the accountant guy ended up inheriting it all
mircea_popescu: and with that other chick, what was her name
mircea_popescu: and fuel was in high demand so we bought some precursors from jita and sold the fuel to the people in low sec
BingoBoingo: The prospect of locking up CPU time for 8 hour autopilot runs + normal Jita lag was too much
BingoBoingo: Nah the smaller thing. By the time I trained to the obelisk is about when I bored out of eve. Fucking jumps
mircea_popescu: but i do recall BingoBoingo did a bunch of hauls in one of those what were they called ? obelisk ?
mircea_popescu: i think i had them haul 5 bn worth of isk in 10-20mn installments
ben_vulpes: and the mega-pvp, even worse.
mircea_popescu: in tyhe end i was using that society, what was their name
mircea_popescu: but the game is incredibly boring.
BingoBoingo: The things I have to see
mircea_popescu: anyway, the bitcoin eve society had like... a space station fully built and i dun remember how many of the not-titan class ships, a dozen or some shit
BingoBoingo: He was mining in his little pickup truck with a new recruit and then he got FOOF'd
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> nah, eve has an inflation problem larger than the usg's. << And a problem where some things had absolutely no market anywhere, like slaves.
mircea_popescu: the "spreadsheets in space" thing referred to how its graphics/engine is absent,
ben_vulpes: in the sense of a game that is most effectively played with spreadsheets.
mircea_popescu: nah, eve has an inflation problem larger than the usg's.
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 15:21:54; copypaste: i very much love the concept of a 3d game with a bitcoin economy. i've played a few, but all poorly done.
asciilifeform: some others
asciilifeform: (he changed them out later)
mircea_popescu: and let me guess, you'll get them from... hets ?
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 13:56:49; mircea_popescu: yes, naming can work like that, if 8chan.co and 94875984375983.jksldak are the same to you.
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366272 << whattabout the pronounceable mnemonic hashes a la urbit?
ben_vulpes: i caught snippets over the oar, looking forward to it.
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 01:13:37; mircea_popescu: not really. to guarantee same-day inclusion, you'd need 1/10/24 * 10^11 = 0.5% of the current hash rate. to guarantee the usual thing wires guarantee (2-3 days) proportionally less.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367138 << well, of the hash rate ~forever~
mod6: ftr: im still laughing about kako's buddy who needed the condoms in thailand
mircea_popescu: not really. to guarantee same-day inclusion, you'd need 1/10/24 * 10^11 = 0.5% of the current hash rate. to guarantee the usual thing wires guarantee (2-3 days) proportionally less.
BingoBoingo: Other commands may emerge, but bloom filter request is the only one I have seen in the wild.
BingoBoingo: I mean before using the patch. I've only seen bloom filter from multibit/Shildebach et al hit my node.
asciilifeform: just 'heathen.'
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it won't show up in the log as a distinct thing
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I haven't seen any other commands in debug.log yet. Perhaps leave a comment on post?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: may be simply on account of the ~80% drop in traffic, though.
asciilifeform: in other nyooz,
gribble: The operation succeeded.
jurov: <ThomasV> [20151130 17:22] Tribaal: I would not be too concerned about closed-source forks, in the case of Bitcoin software.
mircea_popescu: who. 20year olds, obviously. and... they do.
mircea_popescu: fuck you with a fucking stick, who the heck is supposed to fall for this ?
mircea_popescu: fucking emblematic of the new usa : "1. hey, we're trying to save the world, help us ; 2. hey, the rate at which new people join to help us dropped off so now we'll build an oil refinery instead, maybe shell wants to buy one!"
mircea_popescu: no but you don't understand, they're only trying to.
jurov: ^ mi rather mild-mannered reply
jurov: "Hello, thanks for asking, but I refuse to change the license of my contribution. I cannot with clear conscience recommend a Bitcoin wallet with closed source modifications. Would you use one yourself, really?"
ascii_butugychag: they actually called me up last month..
mircea_popescu: wake me up when your imperial/european drill bits produced a robot that routed the usg at tikrit.
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 23:09:29; mircea_popescu: they're idiots, but at least they're productive. unlike the mit imbeciles who https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ve23i5K334
mircea_popescu: they're idiots, but at least they're productive. unlike the mit imbeciles who https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ve23i5K334
guruvan: well...that's just gonna mean they don't like you :-
mircea_popescu: it's shameful. if you're going to prostitute yourself, at least do the world a favour and do it in istanbul, in the nude, in the dedicated quarter for ephebs
mircea_popescu: so everything starts as gpl, welcomes any sucker foss head to contribute, then "progresses" to a mit license and hey, maybe apple wants to buy it!
mircea_popescu: but it seems par for the course. all the pimply faced wanna-be bill gates business majors know how to do anymore is cast out a net for suckers, wait until the rate of catch stops, and then try to spin it off and sell it.
mircea_popescu: miserable move on their part, actually.
jurov: "Secondly, we want to release a new version of Electrum for mobile devices and tablets. In order to make Electrum available in various app stores (such as Microsoft's Windows Store or Apple's App Store) we cannot keep the restrictive GPL license, as publishing Electrum on some of these stores may break the terms of the GPL."
jurov: "I need your agreement in order to republish your contributions under the MIT license. The reason for relicensing Electrum is two-fold: firstly, we want to make Electrum more attractive to developers looking to integrate lightweight Bitcoin functionality into their systems, and a more permissive license is helpful in this regard."
thestringpuller: the dude who had to move to tokyo cause US wouldn't let him visit?
BingoBoingo: thestringpuller: You could have submitted something.
BingoBoingo: <ascii_butugychag> but in either case, a liver largely consisting of scar tissue is not an argument against having had a liver in the first place. << B.. But Discriminashun, Cundishuns...
punkman: wonky definition but I like the name
ascii_butugychag: usually the latter
mircea_popescu: more's the point : when you calculate for your own reckoning, do you use inches or milimeters ?
mircea_popescu: believe it or not, latin numeral calculation IS actually possible. and they had all sorts of tricks, too
mircea_popescu: (in order to bother girlies.)
ascii_butugychag: tell this to the room-temp iq folks.
mircea_popescu: in which sense, the quote is correct.
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing as iq.
ascii_butugychag: in the right hands, yes
phf: as far as i understand, the point is to walk with mp to his vantage point to see something or other. for example that the railroad runs from hitlertown to the work camps. pretty sure he'll just be delighted if you invited him to your own private railroad that goes from your living quarters to your wineries.
ascii_butugychag: but since it was referred to, i assumed mircea_popescu was thinking of the idea.
mircea_popescu: i dunno who wanted "the railroads" out of reality.
ascii_butugychag: but more like what i wanted out of the net to begin with.
mircea_popescu: yet all the wires being in the hand of hitler doth make you take an interest in gossipds.
ascii_butugychag: not 'save some time.' but ABLE TO DEAL IN CONCEPTS of the level i deal in, AT ALL
ascii_butugychag: if all of the railroads are in the hands of hitler, it does not follow that i ought to take an interest in travel by oxcart.
mircea_popescu: you save some time, they get saved from extinction.
mircea_popescu: there's a reason unicode wars (you know, the thing with the integral ?) are mostly around "how to color figurines" now.
ascii_butugychag: just an unfortunate fact of thermodynamic loss
ascii_butugychag: nah she exists for the same reason electrical wires running to my house are warm
mircea_popescu: which by now is so pervasive even ged-educated nigger in the ghetto knows enough to scream "you don't know what it's like"
mircea_popescu: the only reason she exists is the perhaps well intended, but also castrated inclination of educated males to go "oh, i wonder what the hyeroglypsh mean, can't be discarded out of hand"
mircea_popescu: the only reason her bullshit sinks, however, is that i do not permit symbologistics.
ascii_butugychag: and yeah we have titanic dormitories full of these here
mircea_popescu: i don't think the postmodern symbological deluge has any sort of match or point of comparison.
mircea_popescu: BUT if the symbol "activist" ran into any trouble... there's a newly minted "educator" symbol to the rescue.
mircea_popescu: she has not actually anything to say to it. she;'s some 25 yo from nowhere who has figured out which side the butter's breaded on and is off to washington to live with alfie.
ascii_butugychag: but in either case, a liver largely consisting of scar tissue is not an argument against having had a liver in the first place.
ascii_butugychag: (the climatologists and 'economics' - perhaps are)
ascii_butugychag: and i notice they aren't abusing integral signs
mircea_popescu: look at lacan's "work" to truly see what i mean, and look at all the junk coming out of the usg's 3rd generation to truly know what i mean
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 18:45:40; phf: i've spent most of my college years learning math by sometimes translating problem into sexp and running it inside lisp, to get a hang of the numeric or combinatoric behavior of the problem. there were parts of the problem that were easier to grok in sexp and then there were parts that i eventually wrote an approximation of latex formula reader for. i don't really have a clear idea of where the boundry is thoug
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 18:36:12; mircea_popescu: if you're lucky and enough work has been put on doing the transforms that a function was found. plenty of times the transformation's either not obviously or not at all formalizable.
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 18:33:28; mircea_popescu: yes you can figure out what quarks do in either matriceal or formulaic form. but if you can't afterwards SAY what the fuck you found to either heisenberg or schroedinger, the problem's in your head.
mircea_popescu: phf to that the obvious counter is that sure, but before you've reached a point where you can actually speak of it... it's premature to speak of it ?
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 18:46:27; mircea_popescu: this "you gotta run the city in which i wrote the letter to read the letter" thing is for the birds.
phf: my impression of traditional education is that when everything doesn't fit in your head, you continue cramming it, until in the flash of insight, a way of restructuring the tree comes to you. in this case notation allows for a caching mechanism. somewhere on a blackboard there's a cluster of meaning, that you no longer have in your head, because head is full, so having that cluster contain higher density of information allows for a more
mircea_popescu: you'll note that variety speak or no variety speak, i can explain the whole thing or any part to anyone of any persuasion. that i may not feel like expending the effort for any random derp is true, but also not germane.
mircea_popescu: you restructure the abstraction tree, which is clearly broken.
mircea_popescu: this "you gotta run the city in which i wrote the letter to read the letter" thing is for the birds.
phf: i've spent most of my college years learning math by sometimes translating problem into sexp and running it inside lisp, to get a hang of the numeric or combinatoric behavior of the problem. there were parts of the problem that were easier to grok in sexp and then there were parts that i eventually wrote an approximation of latex formula reader for. i don't really have a clear idea of where the boundry is though
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes technically you could only put your own pubkey in there, and still let everyone else benefit from yours
mircea_popescu: i can if you wish pick a page of strings theory for you to transform into any other theoretical framweork of your choice. but might as well take a page of source from gcc and write the lisp.
mircea_popescu: if you're lucky and enough work has been put on doing the transforms that a function was found. plenty of times the transformation's either not obviously or not at all formalizable.
mircea_popescu: it's one thing to figure something out. it's another thing to figure out what you figured out. and so on.
phf: that's like chinese math, transformation on formulas carried out mechanically by memorizing the book
mircea_popescu: there's many things in this "thought" bag.
mircea_popescu: yes you can figure out what quarks do in either matriceal or formulaic form. but if you can't afterwards SAY what the fuck you found to either heisenberg or schroedinger, the problem's in your head.
mircea_popescu: <phf> presumably mp disagrees with iverson's "notation as a tool of thought" paper in principle << i do not. i do however disagree with the theory that tool is substitute sufficient.
BingoBoingo: From the mines: "Page C3 of today's NYT in print: "It's a good time to be David Bowie.""
mircea_popescu: one can think just fine in an alphabet, no need to play the egyptian priest.
mircea_popescu: now : i do not propose that this is either better, or obligatory for anyone else. whoever can fuck whatever bottle they most like. but i also can't let stand this theory that somehow obscurantist claptrap is the only way to think.
ascii_butugychag: because we did not have any reason to agree on the hieroglyph.
ascii_butugychag: the 'notation as obscurantist claptrap'
ascii_butugychag: verbalize the elements?
ascii_butugychag: what other notational element, i wonder, would he have us give up? matrix ?
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu doesn't do mathematics, this is evident. perhaps he did at one point, but not now.
mircea_popescu: as we speak i hold all the pages i hold anyway.
ascii_butugychag: and needs to hold a MAXIMUM of thought from the page in his head
ascii_butugychag: but DEATH to somebody who needs to formally ~manipulate~ them.
mircea_popescu: and we come back to the same "bad math" problem :
mircea_popescu: i'll tell you that i do prefer spellking out "sum x over y for i to j" than squiggling it up. heck, i have the girls read out bash commands explaining what they do.
mircea_popescu: what, do i not count ? is systems theory not math ?
guruvan: agreed BingoBoingo - it was a long year of much work, and much that's just been tossed by the end of it too
phf: but of course there's tons of companies that have some variation of "breakup my text into individual pictures of letters with precise x/y positioning, for extra points place the nodes in a random order so that tools like pdftotext barf"
phf: pdf is ~plaintext~ container format that lets you encode an hierarchical structure of nodes of type. there's a handful of standard node types geared towards fixed page layout. there's also a handful of types that let you embed content, i.e. inline a binary blob <</Filter/FlateDecode/Length 10>>stream....10 bytes....endstream. latex produces pdfs with intimate awareness of the format's abilities, i.e. sensible plain text nodes that
BingoBoingo: Apparently social media is talking about asciilifeform's Malleum patch when they were largely afraid to discuss qntra on Oregon https://archive.is/f1p8H
mircea_popescu: the problems people encounter with statistics are probably the most obvious place to study this issue.
mircea_popescu: because, obviously, the problem of translating between sets is untractable.
mircea_popescu: it is also fundamentally why math "is hard". for every non-retarded young adult who believes math is hard you have a case of a child who developed his own, highly personal set of shitty symbols, and then never received a good explanation as to what the difference between his and "everyone else"'s is, so got lost.
trinque: aha, seemed entirely psychological. "the mysterious symbols of the world of mathematics! greek letters even!"
mircea_popescu: this, obviously, is anathema to communication.
mircea_popescu: trinque yet the explanation is very simple : a certain set of brain circuitry is deeply involved in novel thought (about everything, including mathematics) and at the same time refractary to structure.
trinque: if a guy were trying to understand the rationale behind using dense symbols in mathematics from this conversation, he would fail.
mircea_popescu: if you're not fucking, you're in the forum.
ascii_butugychag: then forum doesn't do maths.
mircea_popescu: let's make it plain : the forum language will be alphabetic, not hieroglyphic. how you paint the meaning from the letters into little icons in your own livingroom - your problem.
ascii_butugychag: trinque: a good and necessary thing in mathematics. but i don't want to view them with eyes!
trinque: still no reason put why using words and sexps is a good thing in programming, a bad thing in mathematics
ascii_butugychag: who wants to use motherfucking words
mircea_popescu: possibly the only group left. there's been some sort of strange deluge or something.
mircea_popescu: just like everyone tickles the woman in random way in private. this is math porn what you're proposing.
ascii_butugychag: people who ~live and die~ by motherfucking compact equations, ALWAYS invent hieroglyphs
trinque: ascii_butugychag: there is python (or cursed rubby) which is "more compact" like your equation, yet I prefer lisp
ascii_butugychag: and i don't always like the notation.;
trinque: and applies as easily to C++ or any other hell
trinque: that statement does not make any argument for why the seemingly arbitrary syntax of mathematics is good
ascii_butugychag: this is rather like asking why a heap of guts is the correct interface for a surgeon but not a lover !
mircea_popescu: suppose i want the circles filled in red. what now ?
mircea_popescu: i see no indication as to how the arrows go.
mircea_popescu: the text is, yes.
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: whatcha talking about, the text is selectable
ascii_butugychag: so there is sure as hell more than one renderer.
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: mno. you are, for instance, using irc client, which is not same as telnet, isn't showing you (or making you manually type in) the PING and PONG, say
mircea_popescu: you can't dance anyway. i was asking the ozy nboob
mircea_popescu: there may be exactly one.
mircea_popescu: there shall not be any more. and sure as fuck not infinity.
ascii_butugychag: they were meant as an intermediate representation
mircea_popescu: <trinque> how bout math in ascii sexps? << pretty much the only known solution to his problem
ascii_butugychag: trinque: absolutely motherfucking not
trinque: no, why the insane notation at all
mircea_popescu: i'm allergic at the notion of being fed it. i'm niot a printer.
ascii_butugychag: but iirc mircea_popescu is allergic to the whole notion of vector graphics for-printer
ascii_butugychag: it is ~allowed for~ by the format
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: pdf crapped out by latex is all of these !
copypaste: except the odd reader using IE6 of course!
ascii_butugychag: does anyone recall emma goldman's famous words re: dancing & the revolution?
copypaste: no, just in theory. all the widely used implementations have dropped it, at least by default
mircea_popescu: <copypaste> <BLINK> still exists - in theory. << in practice. even used on trilema.
ascii_butugychag: ps is a 1980s thing, and was invented for perfectly valid reasons, the malicious bugginess of crapobat etc. are not inherent in it.
ascii_butugychag: (or rather, postscript, pdf is merely ps rebranded)
trinque is merely making the humble claim that HTML > PDF
trinque: so we use our brains and wrap whatever you don't want broken in a box with the above CSS
ascii_butugychag: scaling down pixelwise is idiocy if it results in an equation where i cannot read the sub- and superscripts, say.
copypaste: <BLINK> still exists - in theory.
copypaste: CSS has many rules, what matters is how they're implemented.
trinque: you're asking if it can scale things down to fit the page?
ascii_butugychag has owned possibly every e-ink toy on the market
copypaste: e-ink eschews the need for real paper
ascii_butugychag: eh make me a 1200 dpi screen then
mircea_popescu: it's good for the environment and ok for you.
ascii_butugychag: i own a printer. and i intend to keep owning a printer. i like paper. and i don't ever want to see a motherfucking pagebreak in the middle of an equation.
ascii_butugychag: then and not before.
copypaste: i have no idea how they managed that.
ascii_butugychag: rather than natural crud as-found.
ascii_butugychag: mocsny had examples, e.g., man takes 'viagra', turning cock into a mechanism, in the sense that you walk into a forest and are not content to sit on ~any~ old surface, if you are there long enough you start making chairs, polishing the wood, etc
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag this thing, that we were discussing. seems to me to make the echo sounds typical of a huge cave, even if we only found a little hole.
ascii_butugychag: that's the whole notion of a mechanism - that it does something quite specific, in a quite-specific way, that is defined in advance
ascii_butugychag: just not necessarily the ones you want.
ascii_butugychag: and the abacus gurlz produced... numbers!111 reliably.
ascii_butugychag: this works for knights of the round table, but not so much for menial mechanics
mircea_popescu: and an important thing to point out is also the b-a model.
mircea_popescu: consider unpnp, it is the best example.
ascii_butugychag: by being ~extremely~ tight, and, importantly, well-specified, in what input they accept.
ascii_butugychag: the few precious things that ACTUALLY WORK, consistently, every time - your cpu's adder, the bus, etc. SHIT on postel.
ascii_butugychag: 'Low-level things are likely to work correctly since there’s tremendous pressure for them to do so. Because otherwise, all the higher-level stuff will collapse, and everybody will go “AAAAAAAAAA!!”'
ascii_butugychag: 'How many problems did you have with hardware compared to OS compared to end-user apps? According to most evidence I got, JavaScript does whatever the hell it wants at each browser. Hardware is not like that. CPUs from the same breed will run the user-level instructions identically or get off the market. Memory-mapped devices following a hardware protocol for talking to the bus will actually follow it, damn it, or ge
BingoBoingo: PeterL: Well, maybe this is a job for the indians or Chicoms
mircea_popescu: write the article. i'll read, and if need comment!
ascii_butugychag: it has the smell of good engineering and thereby became enshrined in the old canon
ascii_butugychag: after the successful test of malleus h., i've been tempted to write one
mircea_popescu: and i specifically discuss the president rather than the "mayor of the palace" because really, having dagobert cut to pieces in the public place is a worse stigma on the obnoxious pepin than actually shortening him a head more would have been.
ascii_butugychag: re: malleus thread: did mircea_popescu ever write an article about the error of 'postel's law' ?
ascii_butugychag: by the next usg stooge, aha
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag numerous examples of pretorian guard heads that thought going with the usg is safe beheaded.
mircea_popescu: but be that as it may : as the oathkeepers article derrided here yest nevertheless correctly points out: other people's problems,. to be resolved by those self-same other people.
ascii_butugychag: which? the chaos? or br still having an unraped pres
ascii_butugychag: chaos in the precincts, no presidential rape on camera ?
mircea_popescu: local police is what currently stand between random acts of violence and the us president being raped on camera.
mircea_popescu: not so. you're wrong in this reading, and the usg itself very clearly proves they understand this (for instance in their attempts to hide behind the tired local sheriff dioscussed on qntra)
ascii_butugychag: the emphasis on local police is intensely usgtronic, however.
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 16:35:36; mircea_popescu: This cop needs to be shot and then displayed for all others to see. Time to let these Nazi thugs who really runs the show here in this country. We need to string all of them up and make an example for the next generation that these acts will not be tolerated. They answer to us, not the other way around. Time we start asking the hard questions and lay the hammer down on those who truly deserve it.
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366550 << this could almost literally be a quote from that fella on the train this morning
assbot: Logged on 15-11-2014 00:27:45; asciilifeform: there was a three-man system
mircea_popescu: ironically... i believe if one were to add up the number of usg agent deaths as evident from prosecution attempts, and then compare that figure with the number of usg agent deaths as reported by the usg for various statistical purposes, a 10:1 difference wouldn't even be surprising.
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 13:12:42; jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=10-01-2016#1364932 They will laugh at you back with your cravings of sugar.
BingoBoingo: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366180 << Oh no jurov, the people are addicted to NOT having sugar.
mircea_popescu: August 12, 2014 Armed with an AK-47, ammunition, and propane canisters, Douglas Lee Leguin set a fire, then called 911 to report it. When Texas officers and firemen responded to the call, he shot at them in order to bring attention to his political complaints. Sovereign Citizen"
mircea_popescu: September 9, 2014 Eric Frein, an anti-government survivalist, is currently a fugitive wanted for shooting two Pennsylvania State troopers in an ambush, killing one and wounding the other. According to the State Police Commissioner, Frein had talked about committing mass murder in addition to killing officers. He was recently added to the FBIs 10 Most Wanted list. General Anti-government
copypaste: By the end of April...
copypaste: ah, i meant the first one, my client was scrolled up
mircea_popescu: this 31 yo guy who together with his 22 yo wife shot a coupla cops and then got killed.
mircea_popescu: This cop needs to be shot and then displayed for all others to see. Time to let these Nazi thugs who really runs the show here in this country. We need to string all of them up and make an example for the next generation that these acts will not be tolerated. They answer to us, not the other way around. Time we start asking the hard questions and lay the hammer down on those who truly deserve it. Jerad Miller, M
mircea_popescu: until and unless you ban the blooming idiots, your copshootings take forever to propagate
ascii_butugychag: the pestilence of faux nodez?