pete_dushenski: "For all that it appears to be a JS abomination running on the iPhone, the Google Mail application routinely trounces the Apple Mail application in searching, rendering, speed, and more or less everything one would want from an email application on the phone." << beats desktop (eg. thunderbird) handily as well. web-gmail just... wins.
pete_dushenski: "(no, not using an iPhone of the most recent vintage is not an option)" << because ?
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: aha. an update from the glitzy trenches. cheers
deedbot-: [cascadian hacker] The Monotonically-Increasing Fucked-up-ed-ness of Apple Software (or, how to sync your contacts to the iPhone without exhuming Steve Himself) - http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2016/01/11_the-monotonically-increasing-fucked-up-ed-ness-of-apple-software-or-how-to-sync-your-contacts-to-the-iphone-without-exhuming-steve-himself.html
assbot: Logged on 29-04-2015 13:25:03; mircea_popescu: "Put another way, grep sells out its worst case (lots of partial matches) to make the best case (few partial matches) go faster. How treacherous! As this realization dawns on me, the room seemed to grow dim and slip sideways. I look up at the Ultimate Unix Geek, spinning slowly in his padded chair, and I hear his cackle "old age and treachery...", and in his flickering CRT there is a face reflected,
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 03:58:23; *: mircea_popescu gives up in frustration. if anyone recalls the damned thing say.
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Is there and armed insurrection in iqaluit?
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: you could try iqaluit too. nice and quiet there.
pete_dushenski: some fat needs to be trimmed around here, whether that idjits going back to wherever the fuck they came from (ftr no one is "from" alberta) or they can learn that business isn't this thing where money and clients rain down from the sky and it's all you can do to beat them back at the door
pete_dushenski: though in all seriousness, if the dumb bitches pretending to be 'drop-in daycares' and 'nannies' don't start returning phone calls and text in a timely manner, IF AT ALL, i'm a seriously cut their useless lives short.
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: the kid knows his ashtanga from his saatva and not a lot besides. trudeau's as innocent as a butterfly, which is why chix dig him and dudes couldn't care less. he's nowhere near as much of a strong retard as the commie premier cunt running alberta for the next 3.5 years
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 06:36:31; BingoBoingo: copypaste: I suspect the reason you dislike pete_dushenski aping trilema is he comes from boring Canada and his cool factor and empire potential are limited by that.
pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366094 << the internet knows no limits !
punkman: even if you hate the Unicode folks, they have actually codified a lot of these things and it mostly seems to work
punkman: and it does happen that something was uppercase and shitty software lowercases the sigma wrong
pete_dushenski: "GM has put a 60-kWh lithium-ion battery that weighs just just 960 pounds into the floor of the Bolt. As previously announced, the Bolt's 288 cells will be able to go over 200 miles on a full charge. That full charge takes nine hours on a Level 2 EVSE thanks to the onboard 7.2-kW charger. Of course, a full charge won't be that important most days, which is why GM says that you can get 50 miles of range in "less
punkman: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367722 << and it looks super weird if you use the wrong one
trinque: why create syntactic barriers to understanding when you can just kill the folks you don't want in your math club, anyway
trinque: mircea_popescu │ "∀ x ∈ R ∃! y ∈ R ∋ x + y = 0" offers exactly no benefit over "for any real number there exists another real number so that the two add to 0". << ftr I am precisely the african that would benefit from the math textbook written in *only* this manner.
mircea_popescu: there IS however a fucking marked cost. and it's of the "how do we make colored unicode people" type.
mircea_popescu: not even of the "impress chicks" variety.
mircea_popescu: "∀ x ∈ R ∃! y ∈ R ∋ x + y = 0" offers exactly no benefit over "for any real number there exists another real number so that the two add to 0".
mircea_popescu: the computer ain't working any better because it "knows" supposedly that ∀. and neither is anything else.
mircea_popescu: but as far the machine is concerned, there is no difference between sum-sigma and letter-sigma. nor any meaning to any symbol. and so the whole "oh we gotta have universal quantifier as a symbol" is to my eyes an exercise of naming the function "understanding" so as to get ai.
mircea_popescu: at the rate this discussion is going, the alt-"lisp" will need a pun function which tells you if the string was used in pun.
asciilifeform: what would make sense is for folks plugged into a mircea_popescutron to get the requisite answer when they ask it
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 13:49:26; mircea_popescu: naming is by its nature this : that there will be a group in power, allocating the names, and everyone else can go suck it.
asciilifeform: but in point of fact this actually reduces to the naming problem !
asciilifeform: fact is, a system which tries to pretend that it makes sense to ask what A + ∀ is equal to, or even whether A > ∀, makes no more sense than one which tries to define the mass of the colour purple.
asciilifeform: phf: my point was to illustrate the notion of meaningfully different concepts of equality-predicate
phf: you can't make any statements about chars using eq. eq is a special beast used to test ~von neumann~ identity. and all the comments in the spec are related to that. sometimes (eq 1 1) but (eq 123123 123123) is not
mircea_popescu: phf well if you have this tag-and-glyph duality you're wide fucking open to the issue.
phf: i think if my lisp rendered same character but claimed that they are not char=, i would be very unhappy
mircea_popescu: you're fucking the same woman.
mircea_popescu: it'[s not that "my girlfriendf" and "his wife" all "look like the same woman"
phf: mircea_popescu: this a hypothetical mechanism you guys are discussing. this is not actually in lisp
asciilifeform: as in the mircea_popescu> because capital alpha is A. example,
mircea_popescu: attempting to make the sign carry your guts is not going to result in a functioning computer.
asciilifeform: if all you get is a Σ on paper - then, no
mircea_popescu: because the computer is not in your fucking head.
mircea_popescu: there is no actual meaning to proposing Σ-which-i-interpreted-as-sum and Σ-which-i-interpreted-as-plotin are somehow different in the "eq" manner but similar in the "equal" manner.
mircea_popescu: should it be in the lisp "repertoire" too ?
asciilifeform: on my desk, two sheets of paper inscribed with the word 'alas' -
mircea_popescu: Tubro, the fat Panamanian God of Money is a useful notion
asciilifeform: that i use every motherfuckin day?
asciilifeform: because these are useful notions?
asciilifeform: they are 'eq' but not 'equal'.
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 04:30:11; mircea_popescu: do you get a Σ to be the sum and a self-same Σ to be the uppercase sigma ?
phf: there's probably /dev/ban on plan9
asciilifeform: the latter
asciilifeform: connection from 186.137.7.31:48104 dropped (banned) << that banlist thing needs massage: why can same bugger come back 4x within the hour??!!
asciilifeform wonders if there are folks reading this on ascii terminals going 'wut'
mircea_popescu: well... tenser, said the tensor σ!
asciilifeform: and you would set fire to a machine that behaved otherwise!
mircea_popescu: what's the uppercase of integral sign ?
asciilifeform: at least for the chars a cultured man might use
mircea_popescu: so do we have the complete set of "meaningfully-toggleable properties" of characters set in stone ?
asciilifeform: break the thing into its proper subatomics.
asciilifeform: because these are not meaningfully-toggleable properties of a character ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: because buncha medieval bozos decided they like small/big letter
mircea_popescu: mno, i am merely in the habit of having a mendelev table on my fucking wall.
mircea_popescu: that way i can look at a piece of paper with them
mircea_popescu: suppose you limit yourself to a hundred or so of these.
asciilifeform: this is not implicit in the question, is it
mircea_popescu: you actually aim to use a dword for the alphabet encoding ?
mircea_popescu: there's as the romanians say, "mai e mult pina departe". there's a lot to go to far away.
mircea_popescu: while the idea that "letters aren't numbers, sit down" is sound,
mircea_popescu: anyway. i have nothing against lisp, neither historically nor intellectually. but this is an unsatisfactory notion of an alphabet.
mircea_popescu: among many others, im sure.
asciilifeform: (early on, it was not clear that smbx would annihilate the rest)
mircea_popescu: i have had enough seawater in the shape of bitcoin genesis
mircea_popescu: it's after all what mpex did. the children did go away.
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with "fuck you, you're childrten, go away. this is the spec."
mircea_popescu: and why did they ?\
asciilifeform: (the entire process took place at all, as i gather, because foolishly smbx thought it could finesse the process)
asciilifeform: this is sorta what happened. symbolics co. had to 'compromise' with the turd vendors
asciilifeform: because oh noez, they get voicez!11111
asciilifeform: in a way that doesn't leave the crud exchanges simply going to a pit to die
phf: the only redeeming quality in this case, that there aren't better standards available, except for maybe Ada (i've not looked). you end up with trade offs, or hard constraints that make the result non-portable. a positive aspect of cl standard is that you get reasonably similar behavior on very wide range of hardware, but i agree that things could always be better
asciilifeform: picture if satan lifted his magic wand, and, somehow, mpex and glbse (!) and havel0l, et al, had to ALL sit down and STANDARDIZE the stock exchange ...
phf: mircea_popescu: there are parts of standard that are underspecified :)
asciilifeform: incidentally, was anybody else cruelly shocked as a kid when discovering that the 8th-bit upper 'ansi' character of msdos is NOT standardized ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's besides the point :D
mircea_popescu: phf and if idiots make functions going ___function where in the ordered list do i look for them ?
asciilifeform: and the latin christendom, clever ?
phf: mircea_popescu: wait, partial ordering in this case means that alphabet is ordered. it's meaningless things like "is _ greater then a" that are not defined
mircea_popescu: the fucking point of having an alphabet is that no, it couldn't move.
mircea_popescu: i can also trivially define the new location of washington dc.
mircea_popescu: and i should not be surprised, lest the scribe gets her ass colored.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, sorting lists of words is the most basic, primary, entrly level task for any scribe.
asciilifeform: while drinking benzene by the litre.
asciilifeform: is talking-to-the-stove.
mircea_popescu: so if i sort a file containing a bunch of words, i do not know if i should look for ___stuff at the end or beginning or scattered anywhere.
asciilifeform: the committee could not and did not, afaik, remotely contemplate attempting to invent unicode or similar.
mircea_popescu: "Of the standard characters, those which are alphanumeric obey the following partial ordering:"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so is there a special function to inquire which of two comes before in the alphabet ?
asciilifeform: The value #\b is not of type NUMBER.
mircea_popescu: but this is blatantly not how the alphabet goes.
mircea_popescu: they aren't ordered ? so "a" > "b" returns undefined ?
mircea_popescu: right, "|they could have also called it penis sign"
asciilifeform: and they are not ordered.
asciilifeform: they are not a ring.
mircea_popescu: no, in the sense that they are specifically labelled thus with a label specifically made to label numbers.
asciilifeform: BUT they are not a ring.
asciilifeform: it's what grew on the keyboard.
mircea_popescu: mno. if we read the very table referenced, we find
mircea_popescu: "As an example, table 13-1 shows the character labels, graphic symbols, and character descriptions for all of the characters in the repertoire standard-char except for #\Space and #\Newline."
mircea_popescu gives up in frustration. if anyone recalls the damned thing say.
asciilifeform: phf: and yet one still finds people arithmetizing on characters, thinking that they are doing nothing wrong, then wondering why unicode is retarded and anything involving it is a crock of shit where so much as a fart runs in O(N) at best
phf: asciilifeform: i think numerics is a truly dodgy tradeoff. it took me until quite recently to grok that "character code == ascii" or "character code == unicode codepoint" are not the only two possible interpretations.
mircea_popescu: by jumping the index, smashing stacks and doing all sorts of shenanigans.
mircea_popescu: the idea was that it sacrificed outlier cases to get a better performance curve geared towards more common cases
asciilifeform: was this the old-unixen thread ?
mircea_popescu: the bit discussing the cheating involved in the asm translation of search in c was added to the log about a year ago
mircea_popescu: no, this is not how search works "anywhere" in the universe.
asciilifeform: this is how search on an unsorted list works anywhere in the universe
asciilifeform: this is not implicit in the act of searching
asciilifeform: the machine will compare every element to your search item.
mircea_popescu: you're from another universe.
mircea_popescu: dude if you imagine it is acceptable for me to sit here looking at two strings AND NOT KNOW exactly what the machine will do if i tell it to search
mircea_popescu: who the fuck writes code like this.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that was a warning not to attach side effects to the act of comparison
mircea_popescu: "The implementation may choose to search sequence-2 in any order; there is no guarantee on the number of times the test is made."
asciilifeform: and it is a preemptive and permanent cure for the unicode retardation.
asciilifeform: 'Each character code is composed from a character script and a character label. The convention by which a character script and character label compose a character code is implementation dependent. [X3J13 did not approve all parts of the proposal from its Subcommittee on Characters. As a result, some features that were approved appear to have no purpose.'
mircea_popescu: oh get the fuck out.
mircea_popescu: "In general, characters in Common Lisp are not true objects; eq cannot be counted upon to operate on them reliably. In particular, it is possible that the expression
asciilifeform: and so the result was, as always is from committee, a chimera.
asciilifeform: but it was nixed, because folks other than symbolics were allowed to have their tard-say
phf: include any number of extra characters, say code 120 #\lambda, and also decide how it wants to present them to console/file (say, by writing unicode, or letting user choose the encoding). so a maxima machine can have a set of mathematical symbols for there and then, but not with any sort of claim to univesality.
phf: apropos i like how cl does it, there's a set of characters that are predefined to be standard and portable, and it's basically an mp set: alphabet, digits, top row, handful of controls like newline. each character has a numeric code and a verbose name #\a #\b #\space #\newline. there's a handful of predicates that let you query characters basic nature, upcasep/downcasep/whitespacep. that's it. an implementation though can choose to
asciilifeform: these buggers ~won~, in the sense of extinguishing all life in anything they touched.
asciilifeform: and the bloody mess worked as a magnet for ten thousand insect men
asciilifeform: searched for a way to sink a claw into the living.
mircea_popescu: ima give this theory a very cautious maybe.
asciilifeform: exploitability does not drop from the sky, no.
gribble: Project Zero: One font vulnerability to rule them all #1: Introducing ...: <http://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2015/07/one-font-vulnerability-to-rule-them-all.html>; Microsoft Windows TrueType Font parsing zero-day vulnerability ...: <http://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/microsoft-windows-truetype-font-parsing-zero-day-vulnerability-used-limited-attacks>; Recent Zero-Day (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: they did all sorts of stupid shit, but again, the whole "a wizard did it, to a vectorizer, logically" is enough to sink that ship.
asciilifeform: in the now very familiar usgtronic sense.
asciilifeform: and bloviating louts got to 'solve' the 'problem'
asciilifeform: and 'reasoned' from there
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> how about you drink benzene and talk to the stove. << haha
asciilifeform: the whole xml (actually sgml, the root of the disease) crock of shit was fundamentally an intellectual crime in that it set out by pretending that sexpr did not exist, that lisp never happened
mircea_popescu: it'd have failed even more miserably if god himself sat with budhha and fucked the actual shiva on that very table.
mircea_popescu: the secret to winning the war isn't to make the other motherfucker die for his country. it's to discourage this motherfucking from thinking he can walk up the wall.
asciilifeform: thing is, anything the xml folks did was doomed to be an act of retardation. because they ~were~ the wrong people.
mircea_popescu: how about you drink benzene and talk to the stove.
mircea_popescu: they tried the same sleigh of hand, basically. "oh, driving a vectorizer in a logical way"
asciilifeform: (in .MOD, instrument patches are part of the file)
mircea_popescu: "as the xml bozos taught us, to much grief"
asciilifeform: i.e. you would embed the glyph, if it is a non-traditional one, and represented as an s-expr driving a vectorizer
mircea_popescu: much further argument must yet be heard.
mircea_popescu: you can't finite the infinite arbitrarily.
asciilifeform: finite includes the symbols of cultured men
mircea_popescu: heathen
asciilifeform: in fact, this is exactly the kind of error that gave us xml
asciilifeform: as the xml bozos taught us, to much grief
asciilifeform: y'know, just because you force the 8th bit of every bt to 0 doesn't make it 'human-readable'
mircea_popescu: the reason we spend so much ink on this is that it is in fact the biggest problem we met yet.
mod6: I guess this does actually effect us a bit -- i mean, lets say we wanna do some math modeling or expound upon some properties of something fourier whatever, and send it to the ML... now you gotta have it in ascii otherwise you can't sign it.
asciilifeform: takes an expert entomologist to distinguish the result
mircea_popescu: guy had a (rather transparent) profit motive.
mircea_popescu: nah, those are just idiots, the lacan troop were actual trolls.
asciilifeform: as mathemasturbatory abusers from symbols
asciilifeform: lacan et al made the exact same kind of salad from words
asciilifeform: 'tenser, said the tensor' (tm) (r) (bester)
mircea_popescu: and then you wonder why idiot anglos have "issues" with word problems.
mircea_popescu: i bet you they all grew up as kids among a herd of wolves worshipping the symbol, never once thinking to make them write it down in words.
asciilifeform: they are driven by what the broken pieces are that they find to glue into mosaics, are of.
mircea_popescu: the heresies of barbarians are not accidental, but driven by fundamental stupidities of their culture.)
mircea_popescu: (they focus on the domain and fail to comprehend the limit. it's how we neded up with the power rangers in the first place.
mircea_popescu: the "symbolized" math thing makes kids stupid
asciilifeform: there is always chunks we haven't any shorthand for, yes
mircea_popescu: and for the record : NO THEOREM, no rule or function or anything in ALL OF MATH can survive without the [usually more important] limits and domain definition.
mod6: and then when it doesn't there's alway some short hand one could do without resorting to unicode or PS.
mod6: it just seems like stuff like this works well: <+mircea_popescu> For any smooth, simple closed positively oriented curve in a plane, if two functions are defined on any open region containing the area bounded by that curve, should those functions have continuous derivatives in the region then the integral over their sum is the integral over the region's integration of their differential.
asciilifeform: mod6: visit a university library and read the atrocious typewriter manuscripts.
mod6: i like the idea that we could have a regular char set, like 127 bit ascii, and do everything from this. and if you need Sigma, its SIG, or LAMBDA, its LMA or Absolute Value, ABS.
mircea_popescu: but this is not the point!
asciilifeform: the canonical representation that is to be worked with by a serious user.
mircea_popescu: so then... what are we on about!
mircea_popescu: let me put this another way : the first, the cheapest and most formidable weapon every science teacher has to ferret out the cheat
mircea_popescu: For any smooth, simple closed positively oriented curve in a plane, if two functions are defined on any open region containing the area bounded by that curve, should those functions have continuous derivatives in the region then the integral over their sum is the integral over the region's integration of their differential.
asciilifeform is watching the scrolling logs from his trb nodez, it is like music, so smooth
mircea_popescu: i don't see this emerging other than by piecemeal correction, honestly.
mircea_popescu: and he still wants a proof because the log is not here or something
mircea_popescu: half the fucking things i do here each day and every day is exactly that, force people to properly plaintext their shit.
mircea_popescu: then you with this
mircea_popescu: that dude goes hey, rewrite this chunk of the english cannon, it is broken
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu posts the plaintext rigorous green's theorem, i promise to read it..
mircea_popescu: or else make the thing plain text and sort it in your head like a functioning brain already.
mircea_popescu: yes, and your option is to either do a retarded sort of implicity tree by using hyeroglyphicd
asciilifeform: there is such a thing as fits-in-head
asciilifeform: merchant of venice != theorem
mircea_popescu: do you think i presently notated the merchant of venice so 3555 liunes fit in one page ?
asciilifeform: and if your working memory is titanic and you laugh, all that is needed is to come up with an example that straddles the line ~for you~
asciilifeform: it isn't about magical force of squiggle, but elementarily FITTING A THING ON A PAGE that would not otherwise fit in one eyeful.
mircea_popescu: there's no particular boon to understanding to be had from squiggling.
mircea_popescu: there's plenty of squigglies in physics too. i never much cared.
asciilifeform: didja ever walk up to the author, and ask 'why didntcha do plain text like euclid'
mircea_popescu: machine written for text and then hand drawn for symbolics
asciilifeform: inked in the integral signs.
asciilifeform: relatedly, i spend a great deal of time in uni maths library. to this day. and every so often i end up picking up a thing that was typeset on the cheap, in the dark ages, using typewriter
mircea_popescu: be the scotsman with a parasol, what do i care.
mircea_popescu: i'm not telling you how to grasp things, you're the one that keeps going "no true scotsman would go around without a parasol" or w/e.
asciilifeform: typically the only way any of it makes a difference to me is between grasping and not-grasping a thing.
mircea_popescu: they're all equally dirty anyway.
mircea_popescu: dude get out. there's 7 bn people alive today, not to mention historically, and you think having twenty or a hundred slices of tp makes a difference ?
asciilifeform: during the course of ONE SHIT.
mircea_popescu: the conceptual equivalent of writing fucking subroutines you nut you.
mircea_popescu: just define whatever the fuck and work on one sum at a fucking time already.
asciilifeform: then you're writing a graphics engine, mayhap
mircea_popescu: besides the fact that it paginates poorly.
asciilifeform: and when you have 11 of them nested ?
mircea_popescu: in 6th or 7th grade at some point i discovered sums and the sigma. i was enchanted for about a year. throughout highschool i just wrote them out.
asciilifeform: idk, get out old notebook from school, and see how many pages it'd take you to ~unambiguously~ and ~rigorously~ english-verbalize, e.g., green's theorem ?
mircea_popescu: the latter.
ben_vulpes: the sample code had some declarative rules, and your complaint was something along the lines of "why'd they get rid of the parens?!"
ben_vulpes: motherfucker
asciilifeform: and to compare this to the idiot 'smiley' crapolade is lunacy
asciilifeform: and the keyboard of a civilized person ~ought to~ have a alt-graph metakey and a λ printed on the front facet of the L.