ascii_butugychag: they get orphaned.
ascii_butugychag: the mistakes live forever.
polarbeard: I completely see unique names are a must, but if you don't replace you'll keep mistakes in the tree?
ascii_butugychag: no. imho it is the entirely wrong way to go about it.
ascii_butugychag: ~patch submitter~ has the responsibility of coming up with a unique name.
jurov: i am sooooo in favot of adding another hurdle to turdatron!!!
ascii_butugychag: not duplicate? accepted, without motherfucking mangling
ascii_butugychag: jurov: how about we have the simple and sane solution - a name can be used once.
polarbeard: I mean a timestamp in the filename author_patch_thing_$(date +%s).vpatch
jurov: anyway, matching the signature against all versions of one patch isn't so big thing to swallow
polarbeard: you're talking about the file metadata?
ascii_butugychag: and i have no intention of asking people to use a patched pgptron simply so they can use v
polarbeard: for the rate that patches get built I think it will be fine
polarbeard: it happens to be the unix time because is pseudo-universal
ascii_butugychag: who are not the patch author
ascii_butugychag: by OTHER PEOPLE
ascii_butugychag: polarbeard: because sigs submitted arbitrarily later than the patch !!!
polarbeard: ascii_butugychag: why can't sigs have the same timestamp?
jurov: punkman i said that, there were screams it's not vtronic
punkman: submitting patches with the same name kinda confuses things, maybe we could not do it instead?
ascii_butugychag: also all existing vtrons, afaik, match sigs to patches by using the filename.
ascii_butugychag: jurov: how will you deal with sigs produced after the patch submission date ?
ascii_butugychag: i wanted to see a diff of my tree (pvs, and my pvs fix, and shiva, and the shiva fix) vs yours (where the patches and their bugfixes were agglomerated)
ascii_butugychag: well then this is not what i asked for
mod6: its only on the right hand side.
mod6: <+ascii_butugychag> the two trees, diffed. << i believe this is what I have and what you're looking for, is it not?
ascii_butugychag: jurov: also why do we have sha1 in the mix
ascii_butugychag: why is there any difference ?
mod6: i did vdiff of the pressed out stuff.
mod6: scroll to the bottom.
ascii_butugychag: the two trees, diffed.
ascii_butugychag: the tree.
ascii_butugychag: not the v output
ascii_butugychag: i wanted a diff of a) the result of applying my original patches b) the result of applying yours
ascii_butugychag: jurov: the latter is a no-go because sigs !
jurov: (latter bring the original idea)
polarbeard: but actually you need to store all versions in some common place to do further checking, they should come with different filenames...
ascii_butugychag: so long as every patch ever submitted can be pressed to, the thing works correctly.
ascii_butugychag: jurov: for humans, but the idea here is that it ought to be able to swallow new patches
ascii_butugychag: gotta rename the sig too
ascii_butugychag: nobody signs the names
ascii_butugychag: jurov: append '-old' to the old name ?
jurov: since renaming is out of the question
jurov: lxr may be vtronic *if and when* someone takes my questions serious. so, asking again, what to do with reground or otherwise resubmitted patches?
thestringpuller: debuggin threads is the most painful thing to debug.
ascii_butugychag: but not until then!
ascii_butugychag: then fire.
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:03:09; ascii_butugychag: do you have the log scrolling 24/7 ?
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 14:12:43; PeterL: looks like there is no bet for cruz to get nomination?
PeterL: ascii_butugychag> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395141 << when americans stuff ballot box, they like to set it up as 'dark horse candidate' << I wouldn't call Cruz a dark horse, there are just so many candidates he must have been overlooked, we didn't get bets for huckabee, santorum, fiorina, christie, etc, either
phf: can probably add something like lxr, but i need a better idea of how they do c++ parsing/indexing
thestringpuller: where node stops responding, last time though it brought the whole machine down tho.
ascii_butugychag: (it is in the global idiot lock)
ascii_butugychag: (or do any other useful work)
ascii_butugychag: but thing is, i specifically am interested in what the thing is doing when it is ~unable to produce log~
ascii_butugychag: the logs suck arse
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: sorta why i'd rather plot externally than grep
mircea_popescu: minutewise it works, but otherwise... meh
thestringpuller: yea. but I don't ~look~ at the log 24/7
ascii_butugychag: do you have the log scrolling 24/7 ?
ascii_butugychag: thestringpuller: it doesn't tell you worth shit re: a stuck node.
ascii_butugychag: and then you people wonder why your tx is stuck on mars without a return ticket
thestringpuller: i thought tail -f debug.log was the only way to see what was actually going on
ascii_butugychag: does nobody but me actually watch their trb logs ?
thestringpuller: the power rangers seem to be able to line up gullible investors better than zuckerberg and that napster guy...justin timberlake was it?
ascii_butugychag: is so that we can get to a place where there is NEVER a situation of 'i wonder wtf the node is doing'
ascii_butugychag: one of the reasons i wrote shiva,
ascii_butugychag: nor does idem, running on SAME BOX as zoolag in parallel with it and -connected to it and the other trbs.
mircea_popescu: obviously. why not be useless to the bitter end. power rangering ftw!
punkman: and probably not mentioned in changelogs either
punkman: there have been a lot of DoS bugs since 0.5.3
ascii_butugychag: while the network thread continues to accept connections
ascii_butugychag: blackhole results when the worker thread (the one that handles nearly everything) is wedged
mircea_popescu: last time i did it it went flawlessly. the time before that, i took three tries because i fucked up twice.
mircea_popescu: gotta make a bot, that'll say "hey dummy... you only put the sig in!"
mircea_popescu: jurov really can't be expected to baby people sending stuff WRONGLY for the rest of his days.
mircea_popescu: splendor of splendors. and if we can somehow merge the eating so both the current model and an error-passing irc bot based method exist...
ascii_butugychag: anyway, a thing that gives vtronic lxr that also would eat patches and let you walk the vtree, would be ~the~ answer.
mircea_popescu: you gotta simmer down with the readily set wrath bit!
ascii_butugychag: nm i was thinking of the earlier thing
mircea_popescu: the country really has NOTHING to do with it.
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 16:46:27; ascii_butugychag: (or rather, the pisshole that then existed there)
ascii_butugychag: thestringpuller: it is partly why we use l's notation
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 16:25:23; mircea_popescu: review the letters, the reason calculus was invented as well as documented has everything to do with newton being part of the b-a of his time, going under the name "lion's claw" and ~0 to do with the happenstance that some derp battling hygiene wore a hunk of metal now and again for a hat.
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395177 << science ~does~ 'have a country~ in the sense that newton was not and could not have been from zimbabwe.
ascii_butugychag: thestringpuller: recall that the whole project appeared largely on account of my unreasonable demands
ascii_butugychag: i do NOT have the time, energy, or inclindation to fucking HUNT for 'where is this defined'
ascii_butugychag: i refuse to read the code in anything where i can't click an identifier and get concordance
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 14:12:43; PeterL: looks like there is no bet for cruz to get nomination?
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395141 << when americans stuff ballot box, they like to set it up as 'dark horse candidate'
polarbeard: ascii_butugychag: I pushed just 4 fun, I actually just need git to manage my branch with the fancy logs
ascii_butugychag: (which ~really~ needs to be come the canonical patch swallower and lxr replacement )
mircea_popescu: review the letters, the reason calculus was invented as well as documented has everything to do with newton being part of the b-a of his time, going under the name "lion's claw" and ~0 to do with the happenstance that some derp battling hygiene wore a hunk of metal now and again for a hat.
mircea_popescu: science has no country. the pretense to the contrary is not unlike some derps sitting on reddit going "people whose names start with m are more great than people whose names start with i because mp > indiancandy so THERE!11"
mircea_popescu: sort of like counting the fucks over your life. odds are the most times you fucked the women you liked least. it's how it works for most people.
mircea_popescu: here's something to help BingoBoingo pass the winter : http://www.nairaland.com/attachments/1848712_1420843killercurves3_jpegf7a5386b784f877d48afebd2b0fb0ea2
mircea_popescu: lol so the redditard/tardstalk/whatever idiot parade settled on "we know better than mp because random derp said we do" ?
mircea_popescu: i wonder if rand will spend the next 50 years with a tiny rabid fanbase and a few %s each election.
PeterL: commented on the bet page.
mircea_popescu: say something there at any rate.
PeterL: so does the rand paul bet get settled as "no" now, or does it have to wait until the republican convention in the summer?
PeterL: and speaking of presidential politics: rand paul just announced todayhe is dropping out of the race
mircea_popescu: well if there isn't make it .
PeterL: looks like there is no bet for cruz to get nomination?
mircea_popescu: the way it wouldn't be for obama. he was, throughout, a loser. losing doesn't affect losers as it affects winners.
mircea_popescu: copypaste i think the perception (at least my perception at any rate) is that he's a momentum player. all he has on his side is the image of winning, no further substance.
PeterL: so maybe he wins new hampshire next week, then we will see a bunch of yes bets?
copypaste: he's only one seat behind after the first state
asciilifeform: of the things that most must die, it is this, verily.
asciilifeform: 'hobo in the alley has same right to impregnate wife as master of the house' or how did mircea_popescu put it.
asciilifeform: the situation with 'all connections are equal' MUST DIE.
asciilifeform: in other news, zoolag was blackholed for a record-breaking 8 hours.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo no, more than half of these are women.
pete_dushenski: the 'einstein' expression mighta given that away
assbot: Logged on 02-02-2016 18:01:26; danielpbarron: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-02-2016#1393853 << I met the guy at both PaulFest and PorcFest (pictured https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bre5M-MIMAEVoHf.jpg:large )
assbot: Logged on 02-02-2016 19:41:01; jurov: princessnell: you have here 15675 s.qntr shares, want to do anything with them?
mircea_popescu: it is a bitcoin expert / gavin economist / miner leader and otherwise important reddit person.
mircea_popescu: how does the signed txn look ?
pete_dushenski: ^a test. you might see me logging in as 'pete_d_out' in the next week or so. if you do, please to +v!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anything in there ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mod6: ;;later tell funkenstein_ thanks. yeah, that patch will be useful. will try to get it in right after the release.
funkenstein_: mod6, keep up the good work, tis nice to see some activity
funkenstein_: there was some tree structure problem with original mailing list submission iirc
funkenstein_: it got hung up when i added another patch "chuck_checkpoints" with mistake.. now sits there for eyeballs if anyone is interested
mod6: oh awesome, did it make it into the ML?
funkenstein_: ooh cool "physically unclonable functions". is that another way to say reality?
asciilifeform: https://github.com/17Q4MX2hmktmpuUKHFuoRmS5MfB5XPbhod/dropzone-lib << lulzy derpatron from the spam in mircea_popescu's comment section
asciilifeform: http://www.pi314.net/eng/bellard.php << l0l! same bellard as of qemu and tinycc and many other fun things
mircea_popescu: but the same text!
asciilifeform: ith the discovery of that algorithm and very little to do with the finding of the formula. The mistake was mine. Saying that Bailey found the formula is like saying that the formula was found by the Maple and Basic program.'
asciilifeform: the discovery since he contributed to it (as he said), this is my second big mistake. Of course he accepted to co-write the article, who wouldn't ?! David H. Bailey (and Ferguson) are the authors of the PSLQ program. That program is the <american> version of the Pari-Gp program. I used it a little it is true, but what made the discovery was pari-Gp and Maple interface program I had. So actually, that person has nothing to do w
asciilifeform: more talent in politics (more money too). He is good but has a tendency to site himself a lot. He thinks that if he had the idea of the sum of 2 numbers at one point in his life then all formulas in mathematics are his own discovery. About David H. Bailey. He came after the discovery of the formula and my small basic program , I had also a fortran version. This is where Peter Borwein suggested to add him as a collaborator to
asciilifeform: 'Peter Borwein wanted very much that I do a Ph. D. on the ISC but he wanted also to publish (with his name of course) an article before I deposit the thesis. Again the same story was going on, these 2 guys are so greedy I can't believe it. The behavior they had with me was not exclusive, especially Peter Borwein he was the same with most of his students, especially the good ones, sucking the maximum. Jon is the same but he has
asciilifeform: doesn't sprechen the inglisch so well, but not hard to understand:
asciilifeform: ^ re: the perelmanization of ploufee
mircea_popescu: ftr, that's where the now-famous first of many "calculate nth decimal of transcendent without calculating the others" thing was published
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, i was walking with a woman i walked with all over the fucking world, and she spontaneoushly said
mircea_popescu: no i mean the autocad thing.
mircea_popescu: whereas the correct solution is to stick to the math. computers are fucking tractors not farm designers.
asciilifeform: age of cheap transistor had a faux-renaissance where folks used the cheap transistors for elaborate self-delusion - 'this is sooo complicated, nobody!1111 could crack'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i am quite certain that you knew this, but pretty much all published block ciphers date to the dark ages, when transistor was painfully expensive
mircea_popescu: trinque> also, I don't see sendrawtransaction in trb's list o' commands... wat do? << cry all the way home, we don't have it yet. backport it ? :D
mircea_popescu: idence of a polynomial method to estimate a transcendent" is really good enough. and it exhibits all those important properties : such as, you can ~actually~ use infinite message, and you can also use any arbitrary padding you like, up to infinity - the hash function won't complain. and you can want it to shit out any block size you want it to shit out - also won't complain, but give EQUALLY MEANINGFUL results. whether
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> i will prolly care. on the train, some time soon. << the reason i give it is mostly didactic. it plainly shows what i mean re proper use of math and treating your computer like a tool to do a job rather than treating your job as something to be adjusted to fit the computer without having to delve into complexities and subtleties of number theory etc. something as commonplace as "use the intervals of conf
asciilifeform: when you get to the genesis, you're done.
asciilifeform: the simplest algo, for all patchons in patch, dive down recursively and find ancestor.
phf: well, the idea is that you want to click on the patch and see how to press it. if i were to click in polarbeard_* presumably i want to press the tree that includes old malleus?
asciilifeform: just needs to display the tree
trinque: anyone? given a privkey in hand, how the hell do I get trb to send some coin? I do not want to change addresses and nothing I find can chew on this wallet
phf: jurov: i don't handle patch conflicts yet, until there's some kommunitee resolution. and if the answer is "remove them from your patches" probably going to add some kind of tree walk in addition to topo. fwiw right now on the site you can see patches that wouldn't press cleanly in "pink"
kakobrekla: the 'be quiet' ones that is?
asciilifeform: i haven't even plugged the thing in yet, and already impressed.
asciilifeform: and was laughing until i saw that it starts spinning when i turn the box a bit !
asciilifeform: in other nyooz, i bought that quiet fan kakobrekla recommended ages ago
asciilifeform: i will prolly care. on the train, some time soon.
asciilifeform: then works
asciilifeform: (the original home of bignum)
asciilifeform: then you're stuck with wandering decimal crud
mircea_popescu: fuck the fucking computing-centring paradigm in crypotography
mircea_popescu: so they do.
asciilifeform: the root ops go poorly with bit arithmetic
mircea_popescu: hence the substractions.
mircea_popescu: because we're specifically collecting hte noise of the formula against the text and its mirror, rather than pi itself.
mircea_popescu: you took a second to answer after my 2nd line, minutes after the first produced nothing! timing attack on your brain!
asciilifeform: why the bitwise negation ?
mircea_popescu: (basically - they're the classical (archimedan!) approximations of pi, for the text and reversed text, to an arbitrary precision. makes for an eminently tunable hashfunction)
mircea_popescu: (V3 - V4) and finally d) return blocksize digits from the key-th position in H.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if you feel like entertaining some crackpottery, suppose a hash function defined as follows : a) calculate PM ; pM ; P!M ; p!M where P and p are the perimeters of polygons of K sides circumscribing and inscribed respectively in the same circle and !M is the bitwise negation of M ; b) calculate V1 = 2pMPM/(PM+pM) ; V2 = sqrt(pMPM) ; V3 = 2p!MP!M/(P!M+p!M) ; V4 = sqrt(p!MP!M) ; c) calculate H = (V1 - V2) *
asciilifeform: some of the variants i've envisioned include.... a certain kind of battery, where ion gradients vary when a molten electrolyte cools, and it then cut into 2+ strips, and 'burned' like a candle
asciilifeform: (the former being an exercise in self-delusion, the latter - adds complexity and potentially buggy or noisy circuitry)
asciilifeform: e.g., 1 and 2 imply that there are sufficient bits per entropy without having to resort to whitenings or distillation
asciilifeform: each of these 5 pieces contains a number of sub-boojums
asciilifeform: 4) are, ideally, erased irrevocably by so doing, or at least erasable in reasonably small chunks (when used) and destroyable all at once (when you pull the pin)
asciilifeform: 1) the random bits are born all at once, rather than written in one (or machine word) at a time from some specially-built electronic widget
asciilifeform: the ideal otp machine:
asciilifeform: actually for many years i have thought about the ideal electric otp.
mircea_popescu: anyway - it's not that i don't like paper otp, or otp generally. it's that if that's the best you can do, you should have been a clockmaker
mircea_popescu: drop the 500kgs, forget about that key lol
mircea_popescu distinctly recalls the very smoothly polished travel rod
mircea_popescu: then again nothing stopped you from servicing it
mircea_popescu: wasn't very good in that it went back and forth over the distance
asciilifeform: i only ever heard of breaking an object and the halves become identifying passes
mircea_popescu: basically it had a place you placed the clay fragment in, and a rod which traveled the cracked surface.
mircea_popescu: darn where the fuck did i see this thing
mircea_popescu: that's not it. it basically was a mechanical device, worked sort-of like the scytale except on a chunk of a clay item
asciilifeform: sigsally was the first electronic otp, american, used vocoder (in '40s!) but used ordinary vinyl record
mircea_popescu: sort-of like an extension fo the greek cone items
mircea_popescu: "if thge best you can come up with is otp - give me back the cpu and take this mechanical gearbox instead"
asciilifeform: it just has to be coin-sized and include thermite.
mircea_popescu: the punishment for otp is "you may not use computer anymore"
mircea_popescu: nevertheless.
mircea_popescu: from a strategic perspective, that's the spot.
asciilifeform: however, i do find it... interesting, that it is not ~entirely~ empty, but the intersection of it and implementations ~you can get~ .... IS.
mircea_popescu: if i tell the woman to "spend an hour cooking, this 30 seconds cookings are bs" this doesn't mean i'm inviting her to pick her nose for 59.5 minutes.
asciilifeform: the field of crypto that has provable hardness foundation is depressingly empty
mircea_popescu: it shows you're not using the machine.
mircea_popescu: fuck that stupid shit. if the computer massaging my 10kb message takes a minute i couldn't care the fuck less - it took me 10 minutes to get all the guns arrayed to make a ml submission.
mircea_popescu: they're straight opposite of right.
mircea_popescu: this "make the block small" and "make the cipher computable" restraints are EXACTLY wrong.
assbot: Logged on 02-02-2016 23:48:55; mircea_popescu: there's plenty of interesting constructions in alt-algebras, number and set theory etc.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-02-2016#1394699 << funnily, maslennikov's b00k was largely about his futile attempts to interest kgb middle management in group-theoretical foundations for new block ciphers
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-02-2016#1394695 << the motives for usg officially releasing a cryptosystem in 2013 can be discerned only by an expert psychiatrist
mircea_popescu: the idea that "better box" rather than "larger blocks" prevents from that is not unlike the fundamental idea at the basis of whitening.
mircea_popescu: only if the block count is large enough.
BingoBoingo: Yeah. Today was dominated by a bunch of these not quite news things.
assbot: Logged on 02-02-2016 23:48:55; mircea_popescu: incidentally, thinking vaguely along the lines of making a b-a call for papers for symm cypher, what would we actually want ? i'm thinking a) block sizes of 1, 4, 16, 64 kbytes. none of that bit-denominated bs, wtf is this, 64 bits. fuck that. b) key size of 64kb fixed. c) bonus points for proved hardness, as-hard-as-x etc d) bonus points for not using just basic arithmetics. fuck this shift-and-xor
mircea_popescu: that may be the epitome of anti-interesting by now.
BingoBoingo: In other news at the end of 2016 GE is discontinuing compact flourescent light bulbs. Nothing of value was lost.
punkman: but really, just create the tx elsewhere
mircea_popescu: basically, do everything exactly opposite to the "wisdom" of a very inept if deeply self-pompositous field
mircea_popescu: there's plenty of interesting constructions in alt-algebras, number and set theory etc.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, thinking vaguely along the lines of making a b-a call for papers for symm cypher, what would we actually want ? i'm thinking a) block sizes of 1, 4, 16, 64 kbytes. none of that bit-denominated bs, wtf is this, 64 bits. fuck that. b) key size of 64kb fixed. c) bonus points for proved hardness, as-hard-as-x etc d) bonus points for not using just basic arithmetics. fuck this shift-and-xor hack-and-slash bs,
punkman: djb's ChaCha is getting pretty popular these days
mircea_popescu: basically it's the clearsign issue all over again.