asciilifeform: shiva.cpp as i originally wrote it, includes all of the trb headers. you can form scheme data structures handily without engaging in weird cppisms, just by iterating over, e.g., the node list, and forming scheme list while you do it.
asciilifeform: these should be in scheme.
polarbeard: re: my patches, I'm trying to keep an up to date version of them on my github trb repo, wouldn't mind submitting to the ml if somebody asks
asciilifeform: polarbeard: why all the crud ?
mircea_popescu: there's been this weirdo trend of (mostly anglo) girls getting worried about their labia minora being "wrong", mostly on account of thgere being a LOT of natural variation on that score, and anglo chicks being all weird and insecure and sexually inexperienced. plus of course the crazed marketing society, that feeds into all of the above.
mircea_popescu: you mean the outer labia ?
asciilifeform wonders about the hypertrophied labia 90%+ of porn chix seem to have
asciilifeform: it is also how you get 'no motherfucking updates ever, weld into concrete' while still getting exactly what is needed at every juncture.
asciilifeform: complete solution made from ~orthogonal pieces~ is the magic sword which weighs as a feather.
mircea_popescu: we're born of snails and other oratanii
mircea_popescu: nor do we know the banal names of banal things until after we've made them, because unlike posterity, we don't have the advantage OF FUCKING SANE ANTECESSORS.
mircea_popescu: in truth the situation here is that we don't even know much of the stuff we need until we need it,
mircea_popescu: e old version directory before applying the patch. Then run those commands yourself in the scratch directory."
mircea_popescu: "The simplest way to generate a patch is to use diff -Naur (see Tips for Patch Producers), but you might be able to reduce the size of the patch by renaming or removing some files before making the patch. If the older version of the package contains any files that the newer version does not, or if any files have been renamed between the two versions, make a list of rm and mv commands for the user to execute in th
asciilifeform: the adult version as i envision it is much more like what is described above.
mircea_popescu: i for instance judged that since you DON'T say the obvious, you specifically do not mean the obvious.
mircea_popescu: you can't put a kernel in every single thing including the diff utility!
mircea_popescu: i just don't see the gap between "cleanly covers corner cases" and "is turing complete" bridged.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> nor was the thing in any sense designed at all, really. << quite very much this.
asciilifeform: but it is one of the things that must come to exist, for sanity.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if this was not clear, there is not presently any such thing as turing-complete diff/patch
asciilifeform: nor was the thing in any sense designed at all, really.
mircea_popescu: no argument there.,
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is a continuation of a thread almost as old as 'v' - consider the tinyscheme-genesis patch, shiva, and the 'pedigree bridge'
mircea_popescu: what's the diff if loop ?
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 06:02:08; punkman: asciilifeform: (you will have to rename the dir manually, because DIFF IS RETARDED) << I'll do a punkdiff release this week
mircea_popescu: but in other news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/f6b4810f7b7499277a3b9424f2aeac37/tumblr_mveinsoBEr1qlne6uo1_1280.jpg
mats: i don't see why there would be a handicap now
gribble: The operation succeeded.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
adlai: so "some people" made an ass out of them and himself
gribble: The operation succeeded.
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 2.00000000 BTC on 'No' - Ted Cruz will be the Republicans' 2016 Presidential Nominee - http://bitbet.us/bet/1246/ted-cruz-will-be-the-republicans-2016-presidential/#b14
BingoBoingo: nuts, gotta protect them if you've got em'
punkman: asciilifeform: (you will have to rename the dir manually, because DIFF IS RETARDED) << I'll do a punkdiff release this week
punkman: asciilifeform: afaik we don't presently have a vtron that is capable of digesting everything incl. the old crud. << my vtron digests conflicting patches
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: but in other news, chores! http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8h21v0J8e1rcdktuo1_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: us-style retail banking is an abominable pile of nonsense the likes of which nightmares are made of.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 04:45:43; asciilifeform: also am i the only one to whom 'unbanked' evokes a way of connecting memory ?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1411859 << nope exactly what i think also. and i'm closer to the financial field than fucking hardware.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 04:24:10; mod6: if someone knows what the problem is here, please submit. if testing is need, lets do it. all those things. telling me to take a break, or calm down, or take a vacation is not a solution.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 04:12:28; mod6: for some reason, this guys friggin thing apparently wont verify, except for me. i seem to be the only one who has a gpg & his key that'll verify this damn thing
asciilifeform: also am i the only one to whom 'unbanked' evokes a way of connecting memory ?
gernika: l0l the ethiopian coke machine
BingoBoingo still remembers the one time he saw a person wearing a bitcoin t-shirt in a bar
gernika: asciilifeform: you might be interested to know that the scheme involved some sort of Coke Machine with a water filtration system.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 04:22:56; gernika: Some local color, since I'm voiced: I attended a bitcoin meetup in Oakland and encountered a team of "researchers" from Georgia Tech exploring using bitcoin to help the unbanked in Ethiopia. I asked, and no, none of them had been there.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 04:11:48; ben_vulpes: if asciilifeform hadn't already declared himself to not touch anything that brought anything down from the net he'd be complaining about all of the above as well
phf: well, not busted, but not actually a signature for the tar.gz file
mod6: if someone knows what the problem is here, please submit. if testing is need, lets do it. all those things. telling me to take a break, or calm down, or take a vacation is not a solution.
gernika: Some local color, since I'm voiced: I attended a bitcoin meetup in Oakland and encountered a team of "researchers" from Georgia Tech exploring using bitcoin to help the unbanked in Ethiopia. I asked, and no, none of them had been there.
ben_vulpes: "trick question: first they magic veggieburgers into existence to pretend like they ate something wholesome before desert."
BingoBoingo: the eggrolls
ben_vulpes: "so you leave a hamplanet in a room with frosting, cornchips, guacamole, and cookies. which do they eat first?"
BingoBoingo: What punchline, all truefax. If you leave a planet in a room with icing, cornchips, and cookies there is a fair probability the hamplanet will eat the veggie burgers first out of curiosity.
ben_vulpes waits for the punchline
BingoBoingo: That's the problem with hamplanets of the sort Gavin is growing into. It is impossible to predict the things they will steal.
gernika: mod6 - seems the build-bitcoind-V99995.sh script exits for me when attempting to download boost: http://dpaste.com/3GCPPX2
mod6: for some reason, this guys friggin thing apparently wont verify, except for me. i seem to be the only one who has a gpg & his key that'll verify this damn thing
ben_vulpes: if asciilifeform hadn't already declared himself to not touch anything that brought anything down from the net he'd be complaining about all of the above as well
ben_vulpes: mod6: nobody's saying that buildroot should be v-verified, but that not isolating buildscripts from the user gpg keyring is...not great.
mod6: i disagree, totally, that V should contain any functionallity to validate anything outside of the V tree, contained in the patches dir.
phf: *these
phf: ben_vulpes: that's what all v's do, but we also have this auxiliary operations before the press that require calling gpg --verify
ben_vulpes: unless it's lying and it is verifying the signature anyways
ben_vulpes: mod6: because gpg says the signature isn't actually verified!
BingoBoingo: In other news Jeb quit.
gernika: same for previous version of the file
mod6: gernika: what happens if you're in the rotor dir and you do `gpg --verify buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz.sign` ?
ben_vulpes: (girl hands me child, i place child on floor, "you know precisely what i do when you hand him to me, you could just save us the fifteen seconds and put him on the floor yourself")
mod6: back around the 28th.
ben_vulpes: mod6: are you even certain there was a 'we' running this a few weeks ago?
mod6: the thing that bothers me, is this: all that is different about the build script itself is the version of V.
ben_vulpes: how are you shipping to this thing? hacking directly on the running lisp image?
phf: err, both jumping from hunk to hunk and the on change
phf: (it works now by the way)
phf: i already have jquery there because i wanted to add jumping from hunk to hunk on patch page by j/k
phf: oh, there's "change"
mod6: also, re: regrind, this is for sure: when doing this task, it forces you to read and understand the patch that needs regrinding. nothing wrong with this as far as I can tell.
phf: (i killed the js)
ben_vulpes: but when i click the dropdown some js takes over and doesn't let me select anything
BingoBoingo: I dunno what insanity possessed me to order that reboot, when the same problem is why I got batteries and UPSs for local machines
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: This problem happened with quantrill this week. Was unresponsive so I ordered a reboot, after reboot... holy fucksticks the disappoint.
BingoBoingo: <danielpbarron> oh also, in getinfo I get this >> "errors" : "WARNING: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade." << The hard shutdown may have left your blockchain copy corrupted at the end. Gotta get a UPS.
assbot: The Bitcoin Roundtable Consensus Proposal — Too Little, Too Late — Medium ... ( http://bit.ly/1mPxnVx )
phf: i'm going to try and keep main patches view the same as what mod6 is releasing
phf: so without the two broken patches experimental almost presses cleanly. something wrong with polar's patches..
mod6: i dunno then.
mod6: didnt see the paste /me looks
phf: i split patches into patchsets http://btcbase.org/patches, http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=experimental (and http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=deprecated for historical) to minimize confusion. there's a little menu that lets you select
phf: went to have dinner, come back, mother of logs
mircea_popescu: and the one in the middle is all like "Shit, i really got the worst boobjob in the world"
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in further "ceos agree to consensus" news, http://41.media.tumblr.com/78e51e7943aeb41817550b062441658a/tumblr_mw86rci4tK1qlne6uo1_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: damn we're not even a decade in can't find shit in the logs ;/
asciilifeform: was it the intellectual-curiosity thread..?
mircea_popescu: there's a depth acquired from "boring" narrowness of subject.
mircea_popescu: the one where new people see the same ravines and tend to build the same bridge long dead people saw and built ?
mircea_popescu: (and for the record i will point out that tlp is anglotard enough to miss most of the substance. there's perfecty good reason everyone painted the same god damned vase with two apples next to it, and this has little do to with "you're not boring son ok" and a lot of fucking things to do with ... damn, where's that thread about ther ancient battlefield ?
asciilifeform: rhetorical example. imagine we were american grunts. their pin - comes out.
asciilifeform ~knows~ that the pin does not normally come out! does not need correction on subj
asciilifeform: and not because missed a spot of green pain when painting motherfucking grass.
mircea_popescu: well now that we understand the positions in theory, a negotiation for functional practice may begin.
asciilifeform: even then it makes sense.
mircea_popescu: everything makes sense, my dear alf, as long as the cane doesn't cut into one's own buttocks.
asciilifeform: the cabbage makes sense though !
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so they did. and women beaten for cutting cabbage wrongly. and on it goes.
mircea_popescu: Texting and social media's slowness gives them their power for this purpose. You read a text, and it lingers, it keeps your attention because it's all there is; and then you respond with a piece of your real self, and wait for a response... what's happening is time travel-- while you are on pause, the rest of not-your life goes faster. It is far more efficient at killing time than a phone call.
mircea_popescu: hen the "natural" conversation stops being interesting-- and it will, even if most of you weren't bad at it-- it would be a judgment about your relationship, about you. And you'll beg St. Jobs to blink a path to safety because otherwise you have to sit there with no existential support.
mircea_popescu: opularity of Downton Abbey, not to mention alcohol and iphones at dinner. It is against this background of "phony" convention that teens can productively "rebel" and find their own individuality against a status quo; fighting against an emotionally illogical, arbitrary, unpredictable structure results in learning the opposite lesson, "whatever gets me through the day..." Without this structure to social activities, w
mircea_popescu: ity is freeing, it allows self-conscious physical bodies to get used to standing next to each other without having to be acting, this includes husbands and wives. When dinner is a controlled process with "manners" and expected topics of shared conversation and start and end times, as boring as it may get, it is boring, not you. Women are especially sensitive to this absence of convention, this is one reason for the p
mircea_popescu: But why do we need "the balance?" What does it replace, what went missing? The very thing Holden Caufield hated: "phoniness", protocol and ritual for seemingly no purpose. Politeness is fine, but why do I have to make small talk? Why do I have to pretend to care about the weather? Why, after a decade of marriage, should dinner be a regular review of the somewhat boring goings-ons of "the day"? Because that formal
asciilifeform: back in the day.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's soliders painted quite a lot of grass fields green, and snowmen - white, didn't they.
mircea_popescu: hmmm where's that article about boring family life, and hating the boring structure but nevertheless benefitting from it
mircea_popescu: the deep secret here being that the potatoes are objectionable FOR BEING POTATOES, whereas their absence is objectionable universally.
mircea_popescu: to this day the only way to become a carpenter is to carpent. the only way to become a whoremonger is to fuck.
asciilifeform: to the extent my stomach permitted.
mircea_popescu: i dun think you're familiar with the fellow ?
asciilifeform: the talentless wretch who is very good at sweat, and paints, paints - this is warhol.
mircea_popescu: plox - the world has had enough americans. forever.
asciilifeform: it is gruntwork and the ability to do it does not correlate with anything higher.
asciilifeform: the manual merging thing is quite exam.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is why the v is so important. does away with any exam.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: but machine can also be fooled, in the long run, by 'exam takers.'
mircea_popescu: there isn't "better" carbon to make man or beast.
asciilifeform: overall i agree with this, and personally i have introduced many tortures, as the folks reading have felt on own skins.
mircea_popescu: which is why the same proteins make dog and dog vomit.
mircea_popescu: machine is not a pill against retardation. nevertheless, system is a method for limiting expression of retardation.
asciilifeform: i burn in this hell because too weak to escape it, and ergo it is the correct place.
mircea_popescu: look no further than yourself : are you a bad person for living in dc ?
gribble: Object 279 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_279>; Object 279 - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es4Hy9VNDAc>; Object 279 Soviet Havy Tank [HD]-2014 - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjgNWD5DrNA>
mircea_popescu: if not "relief from the antiquated chains of monk copying"
mircea_popescu: and in other interludes, http://36.media.tumblr.com/3b4fae10722803dac39d2d562407d9a0/tumblr_mkh2jfIHgw1r6qz9zo1_1280.jpg
asciilifeform: i don't see the manual monk-copying as being automagically a thing of correctness-making.
mircea_popescu: i do not want it finished otherwise, at all.
mircea_popescu: and ONLY then.
asciilifeform: does mircea_popescu want it to be finished, and replace the idiot rpc ?
asciilifeform: the fuel ?
asciilifeform: my point was that mircea_popescu is asking 'the tank must be 1,000 tonnes! because fuckyou' but from where comes the engine ?
mircea_popescu: the thing with emplaced coastal artillery battery ?
mircea_popescu: was thgat the tank-submarine ?
mircea_popescu: which was not terribly relevant : it could ford in places nobody knew there was a ford before.
mircea_popescu: but the notion that code can be owned is so idiotic as not to be able to stand. it's fucking code!
asciilifeform: i am reminded of the german fella who proclaimed 'the tank will be 200 tonnes and fuck you'
mircea_popescu: the very concept of "my" patch has to go.
asciilifeform: and then write it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: say we do things precisely as you described. and tomorrow i publish a patch. now everyone who wants to test it, cannot apply it at all unless he is willing to use my tree wholesale. instead he has to MANUALLY merge it in, line by line. and then i end up back-and-forth-ing over his typos for the next month, instead of doing ANYTHING else
BingoBoingo: Where the good lord split, not even Blockstream has internal consensus on HKGOXMTG https://archive.is/9PdE7
mircea_popescu: reading the fucking code is not time wasted, keeping you from time you could have "better" spend writing more code.
mircea_popescu: "why should i talk to the woman ebfore fucking her!!11"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> the work that goes into 'regrinding' is idiot waste. << it is NOT waste. not anymore than the work that goes into brushing teeth is idiot waste.
mircea_popescu: but in any case, what i expect in practice is - a lot of cross signing, of people who know each other ; and a ready spot for corporate investment. "make me a mod6+alf patch" is a job.
asciilifeform: the work that goes into 'regrinding' is idiot waste.
asciilifeform: this is making the student peel potatoes 18 hr. a day.
mircea_popescu: trust that it is the right approach.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu doesn't seem to give the least damn about sweat, so long as it is not off his own back. 'who cares how many zeks it takes to build belomor canal' ?
mircea_popescu: the face of alf when he becomes privy to the evil matroshka mp, whereby he only argues things one way for the ease of arguing other things later.
asciilifeform: or the hapsburgs, etc.
mircea_popescu: they all have demonstrable teeth.
mircea_popescu: whatever you call the deity today.
mircea_popescu: it is not, but merely the necessary result of trying to keep milk in reed baskets.
mircea_popescu: you choose to view this as a sign of the omnipotence of usg.
assbot: Logged on 20-02-2016 22:25:16; mircea_popescu: the important parts here being that v does away with the concept of developer control over code ; and with the concept of code ownership ; and instead introduces the concept of signature-driven responsibility.
mircea_popescu: the fact remains that in all attempts of building things atop non-v environments (specifically : http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-02-2016#1411198 ) result in the same thing.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, reality contains no divine manifestation.
asciilifeform: i don't see prb or the xml circus as 'good people, good intentions, bad tool'
mircea_popescu: having a centralising pos a la vessenes faux foundation on top of the broken process non-v, is a disaster.
mircea_popescu: but the point remains : having a trb foundation on the solid foundation of a v environment IS a convenience.
mircea_popescu: well, without getting into the nitty details.
mircea_popescu: this is as it should be, incidentally, tho the original design was for there to be 2 people who then add more.
mircea_popescu: the foundation ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's a centralized thing! that an idiot one day could get to the wheel of !
asciilifeform: the machine - will not do it !
asciilifeform: that is, if we end up in the position where every developer has own tree, and mircea_popescu is not content to go, e.g., 'gimme what mod6 has' - then ~mircea_popescu~ will have to 'toil and trouble' and hand-merge ?
assbot: Logged on 20-02-2016 21:52:20; mircea_popescu: the idea is to have diverse coder process, and a lot of fuckign toi land trouble on tghe coders, for maximal output quality.\
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-02-2016#1411126 << does mircea_popescu fully understand that there is NO MACHINE MERGING in v ?
asciilifeform: it is quite the same as 'we will abolish indoor spaces! no palaces, so there can be no thrones'
asciilifeform: but i say that the proposed method of achieving this, is rather primitive and by no means reliable.
asciilifeform: for there to not be any such thing as could resemble an 'update throne'
assbot: Logged on 20-02-2016 22:22:12; mircea_popescu: people in the senate floor of the most serene republic notice the silly things the kids are doing in bed these days and lo! ben_vulpes signs it, which makes that snipped suddenly go into a bunch of servers.
asciilifeform: except - 1) he still have to get the actual contents of that thing somewhere
asciilifeform: and hand-backport whenever these are to converge.
asciilifeform: so i reread the mega-thread,
mircea_popescu: odds are it's like last time "they lied about me agreeing", etc.
assbot: Logged on 20-02-2016 23:02:29; mircea_popescu: nobody is to use AntPool, A-XBT, Bitfinex, BitFury, Bitmain, BIT-X Exchange, Blockcloud, BTCC, Coinfloor, F2Pool, HaoBTC, Ledger, LIGHTNINGASIC & BitExchange, OKCoin or Spondoolies-Tech for any purpose under any circumstances, or ever hire anyone who ever worked there.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-02-2016#1411228 << sooo we have the long-awaited miner usgization ?
asciilifeform: ^^ the only things you need to actually build it ^^
asciilifeform: currenly shiva is http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-January/000198.html ~~AND~~ http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-January/000202.html .
asciilifeform: (you will have to rename the dir manually, because DIFF IS RETARDED)
asciilifeform: the bridge, if applied, will turn the tinyscheme into the contents of the shiva subdir in shiva-part-1
asciilifeform: or rather, that link ~is~ tinyscheme-genesis
phf: ooh, so shiva part 2 is the btc tree thing, where's the tinyscheme genesis is where you get the tinyscheme dependency?
asciilifeform: the split was deliberate
asciilifeform: it exists to ~demonstrate~ that shiva-tinyscheme was created from the tinyscheme-genesis
asciilifeform: afaik we don't presently have a vtron that is capable of digesting everything incl. the old crud.
asciilifeform: please throw out the old crud.
asciilifeform: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-January/000201.html << this and this only.
phf: i can't figure out which patches are actually shiva patches. there's "(EXPERIMENTAL) Introducing: Shiva." and then sometime after there's "Tinyscheme Genesis, Cleanup, and Fixes, CORRECTED; -and- Shiva Pedigree Bridge."
BingoBoingo: I guess you just have to stay one step ahead of the sandminers?
pete_dushenski: america's hat's pretty enormous. there's always another corner of desolate tundra with satellite internet to set up camp in.
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Gotta keep them straight. What if you must leave America's hat for the malarial side of the ocean?
pete_dushenski immediately thought of http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=20-01-2016#1378005 only to realise that he was racialistically lumping all the s.e. asian 20th century massacres together
asciilifeform: their ~children~ usg, yes
mircea_popescu: take them out of that swamp already.
mircea_popescu: good people in specific circumstances produce usg no matter what they individually may choose.
mircea_popescu: o brother.
mircea_popescu: rather than "let's try prb with better people, it'll work this time"
mircea_popescu: and i would very much like it be the case that some folks here actually want to specifically trbn
ben_vulpes: but aha i do recall that mjr and pgp were in the same room a few times