PeterL: the bitcoin did not just move accidentally, bitcoin moves when somebody signs a statement "I own this bitcoin, I am sending it to address X"
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 09:34:25; davout: more generally, it seems an important thing to me that bettor claims should be adjusted by the existence of a a previous double-payout, if any
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438364 << and you're going to ask the fellow to submit proof that he didn't... sell the address ? or etc ?
PeterL: solrodar if you sign a statement "I give my dog to danielpbarron", then yes it is his dog, and if you later say oops, I meant to give it to bob, then it is up to DPB to give the dog up, but he does not have to
solrodar: danielpbarron: But you evidently apply the same principle to fiat bank accounts as well. Anything else? Your dog has just jumped in my window, is it my dog now?
mircea_popescu: yes, the prepubescent boy is in love ; but what's he going to do for the adult woman ? have her WAIT ?
mircea_popescu: and speaking of this, most everyone involved^H^H^H^H^H^H inloved with bitcoin should insistently watch and rewatch malena, because it is EXACTLY the situation.
mircea_popescu: so yes, i can appreciate the sentiment, infantile such as it is. guy means well, i'm sure. but in point of fact he is so far removed from relevancy in any conceivable approach to the issues, that there's really very little to be said.
mircea_popescu: seal top off a bottle of Maltova and attach it to a piece of fabric with the loose sewing of a preschooler.
mircea_popescu: davout> https://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/#c5888 <<< guy has a point << lemme tell you a story. when i was a kid, i don't recall exactly, 5, 6, something, my mother was very sad over i have no idea what - being as i was too young to comprehend the emotions and problems of adults. but to cheer her up i decided to make her a dress! to which purpose i proceeded to cut off the shiny
solrodar: since the sender never intended to transfer ownership to that person
solrodar: my argument is that a mistaken payment may have changed possession of the money, but not ownership of it
PeterL: I would call it charitable to return the money
solrodar: you try to pay your rent, but make a typo and send the money to me instead
solrodar: no, because nobody here except you gives a crap what the bible says
solrodar: I'm sure I could find some law about unjust enrichment in the bible if I looked hard enough
solrodar: I was wondering the same thing
PeterL: It does not matter who the true mother was, the one who wanted him to live was deemed a better mother
solrodar: I doubt you'd believe that if you had lost a large sum of money by sending it to the wrong person by mistake
solrodar: both bettors have a moral obligation to return the money, it's just that one of them is identifiable and the other one isn't
PeterL: <nubbins`> hmm davout are you really going to withhold bet payouts to bettors who were unlucky enough to receive free money from mp's personal funds << so if person A used separate addresses for bets and person B used the same address on multiple bets, A gets more money and B gets less?
solrodar: nubbins`: it's logical to reduce payments to those addresses if and only if if davout decides MP's double payment can be charged to the company
nubbins`: "GPG signed contracts are no good if they can't be enforced." actually they've fulfilled their purpose precisely as intended here
nubbins`: <+asciilifeform>punkman: they pay from own pockets? << that's my understanding too
nubbins`: also, a thousand lels at the guy who suggested the double-paid bettors just return the funds
asciilifeform: punkman: they pay from own pockets?
punkman: what happens to "minimum value" if the liquidation nets less than 100 btc though?
davout: and regarding S.BBET specifically there's 3.2 (a) reading "The representatives of BitBet have elected to divide BitBet into 10`000`000 (ten million) equal non-voting shares with a total equity value of 100 BTC (0.00001 BTC each). In the event of liquidation or breach of this Agreement they solemnly promise and warrant to repay all investors holding shares at this minimum value."
davout: punkman: the idea of a receivership is that you sell assets, use the cash to pay outstanding claims, the rest, if any, goes to shareholder
davout: a diligent commenter did the math, the actual shortfall seems to be 4.37385306 btc -> https://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/#c5892
gribble: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: But the 0-conf bet would have been wrong before approval. 0-conf Bets made the BitBet mixer go around
asciilifeform: and yes, they had no obligation to send it back, etc. but if they had, there would be no reactor fire, and a still-operating bbet. that isn't about to be auctioned off to spammerz.
asciilifeform: and in any case it was pretty clear that it was double send, mircea_popescu published the tx
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 09:32:38; davout: basically is saying that one of the addresses included in the double payout got paid twice ~11 btc and has over 50 btc in pending bet payouts
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438363 << interesting how none of these folks ever considered sending the doubled coin back... but they whine, whine, about delay!
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438373 << fuck shitlangs and fuck i-could-have-made-anything-but-i-made-another-unix . with a red hot poker.
BingoBoingo: http://www.stltoday.com/news/traffic/along-for-the-ride/set-ablaze-now-stolen-barrel-bob-modot-s-safety-mascot/article_dcc8a9d6-7081-500a-9b17-e8ad0bad4f33.html
BingoBoingo: Aha, I knew it would happen, but I didn't know it would happen this early. The reciever is now burdened with CHOICE.
davout: I'm going to check that everything that was paid against currently unpaid/unresolved/open bets matches the cash mp sent me, and if so there won't really be a point in checking that
davout: more generally, it seems an important thing to me that bettor claims should be adjusted by the existence of a a previous double-payout, if any
davout: basically is saying that one of the addresses included in the double payout got paid twice ~11 btc and has over 50 btc in pending bet payouts
BingoBoingo: It's nice to be able to cover good news in the republic, its been a rough month for that.
mircea_popescu: speaking of van der waals forces, apparently they've finally managed to make the spiderman suit.
mircea_popescu: good buttplugs are surgical steel ; good gags cured leather etc.
mircea_popescu: but in other news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/887be64336a8812a974cba1fbd93e008/tumblr_nid02tKqmo1rmrwgqo1_1280.jpg
diametric: its sandwiched in the frame
diametric: thats actually not the one i got, hangon.
asciilifeform: where is the rubber
diametric: nah the vat is made out of a thin layer of FEP, so its like a clear rubber
asciilifeform: so looks something like the accordion from old daguerrotype camera ?
diametric: basically the vat for curing the SLA layers on is flexible, so when the print moves up a layer, the whole vat deforms in order to overcome the van der waals effect
diametric: some interesting vat related stuff on the sla side
asciilifeform: any groundbreaking advances there ?
diametric: asciilifeform: its funny you bring up 3d printing, i just returned from the midwest reprap festival
asciilifeform: the ceramic filament looks appealing, one could print molds and pour, e.g., al
diametric: theres a lot of talk about ufps
diametric: about the same as walking around a major city i imagine.
diametric: asciilifeform: most people use pla. it's a lot easier to deal with. abs requires higher temps and a heated bed. but recently there are a lot of people printing with petg, and various composites. i just saw some "ironfill", a blend of iron powder and pla.
phf: mrottenkolber: things are always obvious until someone does the work discovery and then it's "who could've predicted"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they installed one at $rupturefarm a few days ago, i still can't quite figure out why, thing is huge
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: but in either case 3d printer, unless catastrophically miscalibrated, does not ignite
mircea_popescu: anyway. apparently all sorts of thing OTHER than polycarbonate are #7 now.
trinque: mrottenkolber: consider that as specified the total source code involved in a vtron can *decrease* drastically from here.
trinque: mrottenkolber: behind the words one knows there can be an expanse of rusty gears and dirty secrets
mrottenkolber: and it was kind of obvious that it signs the commit object, I mean what else?
asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: how long is the git source and ALL dependencies.
mrottenkolber: I can recommend “Git from the bottom up”, git at its core is actually quite... minimalistic.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform iirc abs is the more expensive sort of ink.
asciilifeform: more broadly, i have nfi what goes inside a '.git' directory, and the effort required to understand it is substantial
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 00:04:06; phf: nor is there an easy way to answer "what was signed" question, short of reading source. you just have to assume that right bits go in, and that nobody's going to change what bits go in in future releases, etc.
asciilifeform: mod6: there are no libs
asciilifeform: abs is not thermosetting
mod6: boy oh boy. looks like all you can hope for with Ada and issuing system commands is to redirect the output to a file, and the read the file.
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 00:31:03; mircea_popescu: it's actually a pretty serious health risk. the plasticisers / other treatments that make the 3d feedstock behave sufficiently like ink are all items of concern in food chain.
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 00:23:16; gernika: I have a friend who may have found a valid use for 3d printers: he's built 4 of them in his garage and uses them to prototype electronic toy parts.
phf: nah, above paste is a hack that repeats the steps that git goes through in order to verify a signature on a commit (as seen here https://github.com/git/git/blob/f02fbc4f9433937ee0463d0342d6d7d97e1f6f1e/commit.c#L1124), and purpose is to answer the question "wtf does git sign"
phf: so here's a definitive answer the question "gpg what you sign" http://paste.lisp.org/display/311222
mod6: thanks for the link alf
mircea_popescu: so you don't leak your ip by visiting links ; so you archive their contents if you want to.
mircea_popescu: and in other news, http://41.media.tumblr.com/5d970ed60a915e5f9456ce72372542f8/tumblr_mpzy6dfGsu1rzjdvqo1_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: strength of concrete is inverse to the added water, up to a point, but that makes it hard to work.
mircea_popescu: incidentally : the ancient myths of "person-in-construction" have a practical backing in the roman practice of using fat and sometimes blood as a plasticizer in concrete.
ben_vulpes: in other news, i finally put a tv in the conference room and it is now apparently the dedicated "5 hours of rocket explosions on a loop" device
mircea_popescu: it's actually a pretty serious health risk. the plasticisers / other treatments that make the 3d feedstock behave sufficiently like ink are all items of concern in food chain.
gernika: so you can forget about it while it rots in the refrigerator?
gernika: I have a friend who may have found a valid use for 3d printers: he's built 4 of them in his garage and uses them to prototype electronic toy parts.
phf: there's commit.gpgsign, but i don't see anything for --verify-signatures
phf: nor is there an easy way to answer "what was signed" question, short of reading source. you just have to assume that right bits go in, and that nobody's going to change what bits go in in future releases, etc.
phf: mrottenkolber: unfortunately there seems to be no way to enforce security in git, no way to enable some always_gnupg flag, nor is there a mechanism to add default arguments to some builtin commands.
mrottenkolber: Which I guess would be the parallel to press
mrottenkolber: assuming it signs the whole commit object, given `merge --verify-signatures' is probably reasonably secure.
davout: anyway, the article is obviously a massive piece of shit, maybe you'll be interdasted in http://www.lemonde.fr/pixels/article/2015/12/09/le-fondateur-du-bitcoin-enfin-demasque_4827912_4408996.html
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-03-2016#1437833 << i just read that and lolled. seriously, piece pretending nsa-gavin is somehow involved in or related to bitcoin ? leading with a quote from karpeles ? is this yves eudes hardcore trolling the collection of wanna-be derps that read le monde or what ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: we have diagnosable tards delivering parcels, they often end up miles away, for no discernible reason
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: parcels from commercial mega-vendors, can go to the house, if they get misplaced insurance pays.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: valuable/unique items from ~humans~, i like to sit at the post
nubbins`: so i built a "hackintosh" computer, just realized i hadn't bothered to put the video card into the thing
asciilifeform: nubbins`: the post in my town keeps 'banker hours'
mircea_popescu: to stop crediting it altogether, i mean.
mircea_popescu: hopefully you never get old enough to credit it altogether.
mircea_popescu: eh, the chinese invented it 3k years ago
asciilifeform: well, he ampered it, at least, and i did some of the maxwellizing and pretty much all of the heavisiding.
assbot: Logged on 22-03-2016 20:56:07; mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes happens to me all the time! then alf runs off and invents it and i'm like fuuuu wasn't this on trilema!
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-03-2016#1438070 << aaaactually mircea_popescu invented specificity-of-diddling-theorem, i just heavisided it
asciilifeform: but yes, like kalash, it is not built for comfort of the wielder so much as for maximum effect.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is also very painful to the enemy at the business end of the barrel, which is what matters
mircea_popescu: no, v is great even if painful - because it's painful to the right people, which are the people who aren't me.
mircea_popescu: why the hell not. how much worse than present situation could it be.
mircea_popescu: well alternatively one could also shit on exposed cable and let the bits sort themselves into software as they will
ben_vulpes: perhaps the *other* way to go about this is simply to make patches against the base 0.5.3, and then anyone wanting to apply them may do so in whatever order they choose, resolving conflicts as they feel.
mircea_popescu: it's splendid, really. the fact that i can run it on a random box and trust the result pales anything else.
asciilifeform: but i was reluctant to write v, if you recall, because i considered the problem it solves to be a trivial / muscle thing
mircea_popescu: then again, the people who aren't me that actually care/understand computers tend to .
mircea_popescu: nah, i generally don't do any of that either.
asciilifeform: am i the only one without fancy mechanisms here ?
ben_vulpes: i press to confirm patch validity and then commit the changes to my local version controlatron.
phf: https://www.mercurial-scm.org/wiki/MqExtension and http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/quilt for the curious
phf: mercurial has a handy patch management mechanism, that unfortunatly doesn't understand nor produces vpatches. i basically verify vpatches manually, and then put them into hg's patch folder. then i do a topo sort, which gives me a mercurial compatible "series" file. i let mercurial press it using that series file. whole process is more complicated then should be with a proper mercurial support, but i hnfi how people rebase, refresh,
mircea_popescu: sorry, can't have brainz. zombies ate them ~all.
assbot: Logged on 22-03-2016 20:49:10; mircea_popescu: if someone, as oft is the case for say mod6, is trying to make the whole pile of what was said abvout X, they encounter a very present difficulty.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-03-2016#1438049 << the only solution is with actual brainz, folks writin' articles.
asciilifeform: going with heathen versionatrons
mircea_popescu: phf i heard this privately too, during rebasing debate, "pretty much the only way to manage this insanity is to put it on mercurial"
mircea_popescu: otherwise, "compression" still an open problem.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes happens to me all the time! then alf runs off and invents it and i'm like fuuuu wasn't this on trilema!
ben_vulpes: i have been failing to shit words on the topic out because i think of familiarity with it. it all seems so obvious!
ben_vulpes: another good topic is "specificity of diddling".
mircea_popescu: but the complexity of this notion is rapidly expanding.
mircea_popescu: davout you pm deedbot with a list of strings which it retains for the day, prints a cloud somewhere, one can click items in cloud to get list of days so tagged
mircea_popescu: the sad fact of the matter is that summarization squarely relies on ignorance. there's no obvious way around that rock.
ben_vulpes: 'twas not actually that hard, but it did take knowing the variety speak thoroughly.
ben_vulpes: i recently took a 45 minute sojourn into the history of "protocol vs. promise"
mircea_popescu: or is it the sort of midway solution that's the average of man and woman and horse and chimney ?
mircea_popescu: would actually the idea of pm tagging for each DAY solve anything / be worth anything ?
davout: anyway, my point is that if nobody remembers, that nobody bothered to blog it, the fact that completeness is a problem might indicate a violation of fits-in-head
mrottenkolber: asciilifeform: Ah there go found it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11317378 (my browser history scares me)
davout: re the mp describes a HF that danielpbarron ended up blawging about?
mircea_popescu: if someone, as oft is the case for say mod6, is trying to make the whole pile of what was said abvout X, they encounter a very present difficulty.
mircea_popescu: davout the original complaint was re completeness.
mircea_popescu: but the problem is actually hairer than hoped.
mircea_popescu: i suppose this could be mediated by doing the tagging over pm
mircea_popescu: mrottenkolber don't kid yourself, they're living in a dictator sheep.
trinque: there's some lovely filth over here!
phf: we're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. we take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
mrottenkolber: I totally get why bitcoin development motivates v, obviously there is motivation for adversaries here.
mircea_popescu: well if you're curious, free money is the basis for the existence of the republic which is the reason stuff like v ended up existing. but i suppose from outside this string of actual events may as well be coincidental.
mrottenkolber: mircea_popescu: No, sorry, still mumbling aout the why I am in b-a
asciilifeform: 'After the burial-parties leave. And the baffled kites have fled;. The wise hyænas come out at eve. To take account of our dead. '
mrottenkolber: I have absolutely no interest in bitcoin to be honest, don't see the point.
asciilifeform: they do! i have seen.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform something tells me commenter has never seen hyenas. wtf, some of the most social animals, in its good days washington dc polite society more or less approximates pack of hyenas.
mircea_popescu: mrottenkolber> Naive question: what would be the implications of using sha1 instead of sha512 in vdiff? << roughly speaking you'd be going back in time, we're by and large in the process of moving to sha-3
mircea_popescu: will be signign the davout application later today myself.
asciilifeform: even if the result does not resemble code
asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: this is not the important bit. a collision will successfully interfere with the function of automated vtrons, e.g., one where patches are thrown into a hopper unattended
mrottenkolber: I am only mentioning the sha1 option because I don't understand crypto well enough to be able to rationalize the effort of producing a file, with the same sha1sum, with an exploit while the patch still applies.
phf: mrottenkolber: a better place to wire v would be mercurial's mq facility. mercurial has a way of managing plaintext patchsets, to do things like patch refresh, i.e update the contents of patch from the current tree state, mercurial managed patch press, i.e. instead of doing "manual" v press hg will keep track of state for you, etc. this will not be a way to share patches, as much as a way to facilitate vpatch authoring.
asciilifeform: phf: thing is that i have no intention of ignoring the sha1 issue. sha1 is ~broken~.
phf: asciilifeform: well, you can verify data without verifying git. i've done it, and the thing definitely produces a semblance of "blockchain", i.e. later commits hashes previous commits' hashes, so you can if you ignore the sha1 issue, take a git branch and confirm its uniqueness from the final hash
asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: consider getting in the wot, i will rate you.
asciilifeform: the modus operandi of the enemy is to insert 'bugs', e.g., 'heartbleed', and to prevent attribution.
phf: mrottenkolber: if that's your only goal, you don't need v for that. git already does it for you by having a linearly hashed commit chain. right now you have a reasonable way of verifying the git chain from the top hash, but you can't make any crypto claims about it, since the hashes are sha1
asciilifeform: the primary weapon of the enemy is the morass of 'nobody read this, nobody understood this' crapolade that 'everything depends on'
asciilifeform: there is an enemy.
asciilifeform: the correct context in which v is to be understood is that it is: a weapon of war.
asciilifeform: the nailing down of the BITWISE identities of the intermediates, ~is~ part of the point of v.
asciilifeform: likewise, the file hashes ~are~ a part of v, it is how you know that the prescribed flow of patches is being successfully followed.
asciilifeform: the toposort ~is~ part of it.
asciilifeform: see in particular http://trilema.com/2016/the-v-manual-genesis 0x00
mrottenkolber: My point is the toposort isn't really part of the problem v solves. The function is to cryptographically verfiy a sequence of patches (based on a wot), who cares where that sequence comes from, as long as each patch (commit) has a signature.
asciilifeform: neither i nor toyota have any business saying what you do.
asciilifeform: and yes, you are free to replace the hash with sha1 or md5 or crc32 or whatever, just like you are free to buy a toyota and drive it off a cliff
asciilifeform: it is entirely up to you how to get new patches into and out of the box
asciilifeform: no explicit use, for instance, is made of the network.
asciilifeform: whatever things in git world you miss in v, they were excluded DELIBERATELY
asciilifeform: the WHOLE POINT of v is to ditch git and all things like it.
asciilifeform: and porting v onto git is considerably more of a waste of time than the reins on early motorcars
asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: see also https://sites.google.com/site/itstheshappening
mrottenkolber: Naive question: what would be the implications of using sha1 instead of sha512 in vdiff? (thinking about porting V to git hooks/aliases)
nubbins`: mrottenkolber did you try manually verifying the sig?
mrottenkolber: asciilifeform: So I dowloaded v99.tar.gz because I thought it was a cool hack, and expected the following to work: (inside the v99 directory): ./v.py -v --wot wot --seals sigs patches f
phf: that looks neat, but is there a compiler that adds retro compatibility?
trinque: phf: ever use flexbox? something resembling a layout system ended up in the standard itself
kakobrekla: for mp and others: http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-receivership-formal-application-and-letter-of-intent/#comment-8200
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mod6 http://www.cs.uni.edu/~mccormic/AdaEssentials/toc.htm << another golden oldie
asciilifeform: '... the horde of imbeciles trying to destroy the tower of actual people is very properly the French attack' << inescapably, >> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=26-08-2014#809506 << mental image
mircea_popescu: zwigoff has the decency to stfu and stay away.
mircea_popescu: it's one of the best made documentaries i ever saw.
mircea_popescu: there's nothing special about the various clones of bill de blasio that prevents them from being made into soap.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform note that technically, the machine can be powered on anything. soviets dekulakized the very dekulakizers at least twice ; mao did it at least once,
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> motherfucking moving target << check out the premonitory quality of the vulpes.
jurov: these are http requests to your server?
asciilifeform: http://Please.com/Do_NOT_Embed_anyting_in_your_site_that_links_to/Google/Twitter/Facebook/YouTube_or_any_other_NSA_controlled_sites
asciilifeform: http://www.twitter/Tweet_a_bad_word_about_an_american_corporation_and_your_tweets_all_get_hidden_from_other_members
asciilifeform: in other lulz,
asciilifeform: making them feel inadequate simply for being who they are—salt of the earth Americans, racist, bigoted, small-minded, parochial, willfully ignorant, armed to the teeth and proud of it. There is very little that the régime can ask of these people, because the response to every possible ask is “no, because we hate you.”'
asciilifeform: 'You see, in the US hatred of the Washington régime runs very deep, with millions of people sick and tired of being swindled by various hated bureaucracies—in government, law, medicine, education, the military, banking... They hate those who took away their jobs and gave them to foreigners and immigrants. They hate those who stole their retirement savings and ruined their children's futures. They hate the smug university type
asciilifeform: 'As I said, the Washington régime is just as hated within the US as it is around the world, if not more. Trump's slogan of “Make America great again!” may sound overly ambitious, but what if his promise is to make America great again at exactly one thing—throwing members of the Washington régime on the ground and stomping on their heads until they pop? I am pretty sure that he can get this done.'
asciilifeform: where he drinks the loljuice,
asciilifeform: related orlol: http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2016/03/the-color-counterrevolution-cometh.html
assbot: Logged on 22-03-2016 08:18:50; mats: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/mar/22/brussels-airport-explosions-live-updates
BingoBoingo enjoys the "actual damages" getting nice round numbers while punitive damages get a decimal point
assbot: Visiting Scarfolk, the Most Spectacular Dystopia of the 1970s | Collectors Weekly ... ( http://bit.ly/1T4Yedy )